View Full Version : Inside The SS (Nat Geo)
Seen a lot of documentaries in my day on all things WWII, but this one is really worth the watch. Most of the time, they're rehash of the basic facts we all known about, stock vid you have probably seen before and done, usually taken from accounts/books we have all seen/read. Much of the vid never seen before, given to the makers of the documentary from family members of the SS soldiers. This documentary interviews surviving members of the SS, and gets them to openly talk about what they did, how they felt doing it, etc. The level of mass psychopathy is hard to grasp, so it's ignored by so many, and listening to them talk is a level of malevolence, that exists to this day, is something difficult to watch and absorb, even among those who are no strangers to the details. This should be required viewing in any school, etc. Facts and figured don't penetrate when they're that big, but hearing it right from the people who did it, is a very different experience. "Never again" does mean a damn thing if most people really don't understand it at the visceral levels required:
http://www.natgeotv.com/int/inside-the-ss
And:
http://www.natgeotv.com/int/inside-the-ss/galleries/the-ss
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/shows/inside-the-ss
Thanks for posting, looks very interesting !
The SS had pretty uniforms and looked futuristic but at the end of the day they were a political group. That lends itself to it being, for lack of a better term, “a good ol boy not what ya know but who ya know”
They had geniuses designing some of their kit and we stole as many krauts as we could get post War. But in a lot of ways their way of fighting didn’t make much sense.
They bulldogged and rolled high but didn’t have the logistics train and Hitler himself didn’t listen to key people, militarily speaking, past a certain point. Plus he was Boomer AF concerning their armaments. The Germans were the first with feasible and working assault rifles and he reportedly got teetotaling pissed when he found they weren’t toting Mausers like “they should”.
No sympathy for them. They had cool toys and come on, Hugo Boss made some pretty and sharp looking uniforms, but when rubber met the road; they didn’t have it. They just didn’t have it.
They had the most modern tank tactics and armor of the day but the long game was stymied.
But hey, he got to parade around a buncha uncircumcised blonde kids and their songs were kinda catchy.
But that doesn’t win wars. That said, some of the legit fighters Germany had ended up with jobs in the US Army or French Legion.
Interesting
just a scout
12-03-19, 13:50
An eye watering amount of good German soldiers wound up in SF. Fighting some brothers that wound up in the KGB and GRU.
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The SS had pretty uniforms and looked futuristic but at the end of the day they were a political group. That lends itself to it being, for lack of a better term, “a good ol boy not what ya know but who ya know”
They had geniuses designing some of their kit and we stole as many krauts as we could get post War. But in a lot of ways their way of fighting didn’t make much sense.
Why do you say that? I'm no expert on German military tactics, but they were doing pretty damn well until they were dumb enough to open up a second major front and over extend supply lines, deal with Russian winters, etc.
They bulldogged and rolled high but didn’t have the logistics train and Hitler himself didn’t listen to key people, militarily speaking, past a certain point. Plus he was Boomer AF concerning their armaments. The Germans were the first with feasible and working assault rifles and he reportedly got teetotaling pissed when he found they weren’t toting Mausers like “they should”.
No sympathy for them. They had cool toys and come on, Hugo Boss made some pretty and sharp looking uniforms, but when rubber met the road; they didn’t have it. They just didn’t have it.
They had the most modern tank tactics and armor of the day but the long game was stymied.
Mostly a function of a lunatic who ignored his best generals, which was of course to our benefit, vs over deficiencies in their ability to wage war per se.
But hey, he got to parade around a buncha uncircumcised blonde kids and their songs were kinda catchy.
But that doesn’t win wars. That said, some of the legit fighters Germany had ended up with jobs in the US Army or French Legion.
Interesting
I know about the scientists of course, but fighters? Sounds interesting.
Diamondback
12-03-19, 18:31
Why do you say that? I'm no expert on German military tactics, but they were doing pretty damn well until they were dumb enough to open up a second major front and over extend supply lines, deal with Russian winters, etc.
Just for one, their Logistics Train was still very dependent on HORSES. The weapons may have changed, but behind the front the Wehrmacht was very little that Napoleon couldn't see and recognize how it worked, in rather stark contrast to the Red Ball Express that went roaring across France the other way.
just a scout
12-03-19, 18:35
The German Army redefined the value of the NCO Corps and made them professionals. They also implemented the use of Mission Command all the way down to the squad level, combined with good NCOs it gave them incredible tactical flexibility. Der Führer lost his focus and came out of his role, thus ****ing things up to a galactic degree. If he would’ve just given direction to the generals and let them deal with the strategy and logistics, we’d all be speaking German now as we live under the Man in the High Castle.
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just a scout
12-03-19, 18:36
Just for one, their Logistics Train was still very dependent on HORSES. The weapons may have changed, but behind the front the Wehrmacht was very little that Napoleon couldn't see and recognize how it worked, in rather stark contrast to the Red Ball Express that went roaring across France the other way.
That’s all about priorities. And manufacturing capability. We had the factories. By then they didn’t.
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Diamondback
12-03-19, 18:47
Frankly, these kind of shows need to be required viewing in every high-school history class, along with whatever can be done similar with alumni of the other great evils, so that our children can be safely brought to face it and made to see that no matter how much the Kumbayah Singers say otherwise, True EVIL really DOES exist, and regularly needs to be confronted and crushed.
Why do you say that? I'm no expert on German military tactics, but they were doing pretty damn well until they were dumb enough to open up a second major front and over extend supply lines, deal with Russian winters, etc.
Mostly a function of a lunatic who ignored his best generals, which was of course to our benefit, vs over deficiencies in their ability to wage war per se.
I know about the scientists of course, but fighters? Sounds interesting.
Most famously Larry Thorne. Soldier of three armies. He fought the winter war for Finland, joined German SS, and later died a Green Beret in Vietnam.
Also, and this is just guy on Internet talk, but I did know a black fellow in the day who told me once his grandfather had retired from US Army and had been a paratrooper in WW2. I said “I’m not trying to be funny here but I didn’t know they had black paratroopers in Normandy (this is 19 yo Firefly. Don’t judge).”
He said “I wouldn’t know. He didn’t jump into Normandy and he didn’t jump for the US. He was German”.
At some point his daughter married a black guy. My acquaintance didn’t look mixed or too light but wasn’t a BSer either.
And unless someone was directly implicated in war crimes or atrocities; the door was open. Lots of people either anglicized their names or whatever and started a new life.
Some German victories are kinda overhyped I think because France didn’t want to fight because WWI wiped out so many. The central European and African campaigns didn’t have the resistance most would think. They even had Vichy France supporting them. As well as Arabs. Their only real resistance were partisans and British. US wasn’t in the war yet and Russia was honoring their non aggression pact.
They seriously thought that simply deeboing their way would keep working. No. Operation Barbarossa was their Waterloo. By that point US was in it and they were in a box.
At that point, there was no chance of a German victory nor even a truce.
They almost caught an A Bomb too.
So some of that is hype IMO
The way I see it, it wasn't one thing that killed the Germans, there were many factors. I think the biggest issue for them was all that stupid mega tank stuff and wanting everything to fit multiple roles.
Had they built 60,000+ Panzer IV tanks and just said to hell with the Tigers, dual purpose ME262s, semi auto rifles that are also bolt action if needed, and stupid crap like building pistols until May 1945, it would have been an uglier Eastern Theater. They went from Bltizkrieg to retreat as fast as you can and lost any slow rolling and problematic tanks that way. Mainly the "cats."
I know rifles mean about nothing in the overall war effort but when your paratroopers lose all their guns because they can't jump with them attached, how are you supposed to fight Americans with pistols and neato HJ knives you earned for hating Jews more than someone else? FG42 seems awesome until its in a swamp you can't get to. Point is, they had a lot of flaws tied to overly complex equipment
At the end of the day, Hitler, SS, and the Nazi party as a whole were just a costume. There were a lot of blind followers willing to relive the glory days of the Ottoman Empire, and some wanting to reclaim Teutonic land. That's why Czechoslovakia got boned by the Germans: reclamation of Sudetenland. Lots of German folks wanted to feel German again, no matter how F'd up it was before. Kinda like how a lot of people thought the 50s and nuclear families were the perfect era. 1918-1936 is 18 years. We've literally been in Afghanistan that long, just as a perspective. Things have changed a lot since 9/11 yet we have people wanting to go back to those days and the Clinton era especially. Theres a grand illusion about the good ole days and the US is not the only country affected.
I will be watching this tonight, always interesting to hear new info and different concepts behind such an insane time. Wish there was more stuff on USSR too.
The way I see it, it wasn't one thing that killed the Germans, there were many factors. I think the biggest issue for them was all that stupid mega tank stuff and wanting everything to fit multiple roles.
Had they built 60,000+ Panzer IV tanks and just said to hell with the Tigers, dual purpose ME262s, semi auto rifles that are also bolt action if needed, and stupid crap like building pistols until May 1945, it would have been an uglier Eastern Theater. They went from Bltizkrieg to retreat as fast as you can and lost any slow rolling and problematic tanks that way. Mainly the "cats."
I know rifles mean about nothing in the overall war effort but when your paratroopers lose all their guns because they can't jump with them attached, how are you supposed to fight Americans with pistols and neato HJ knives you earned for hating Jews more than someone else? FG42 seems awesome until its in a swamp you can't get to. Point is, they had a lot of flaws tied to overly complex equipment
At the end of the day, Hitler, SS, and the Nazi party as a whole were just a costume. There were a lot of blind followers willing to relive the glory days of the Ottoman Empire, and some wanting to reclaim Teutonic land. That's why Czechoslovakia got boned by the Germans: reclamation of Sudetenland. Lots of German folks wanted to feel German again, no matter how F'd up it was before. Kinda like how a lot of people thought the 50s and nuclear families were the perfect era. 1918-1936 is 18 years. We've literally been in Afghanistan that long, just as a perspective. Things have changed a lot since 9/11 yet we have people wanting to go back to those days and the Clinton era especially. Theres a grand illusion about the good ole days and the US is not the only country affected.
I will be watching this tonight, always interesting to hear new info and different concepts behind such an insane time. Wish there was more stuff on USSR too.
This is a good post.
Germany, to the free world’s benefit, got caught up in so much pedestrian BS that for every good idea they had they also had an equal and opposite bad idea.
Lots of far out technology advances but it wasn’t much practical when you have dudes shoving Garands up your ass from one side and shoving Mosins up your ass from the other.
When Tigers worked, they worked well. When they didn’t. It was over.
So much agreed on pistols.
Forgive the drift but super relevant anime clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D8zu1hcSis
The German Army redefined the value of the NCO Corps and made them professionals. They also implemented the use of Mission Command all the way down to the squad level, combined with good NCOs it gave them incredible tactical flexibility. Der Führer lost his focus and came out of his role, thus ****ing things up to a galactic degree. If he would’ve just given direction to the generals and let them deal with the strategy and logistics, we’d all be speaking German now as we live under the Man in the High Castle.
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I agree with the first part of your post but the second, not so much. Early on they couldn't figure out how to invade England so there was never much chance of them invading America. They never had the sealift or airlift capability. As was previously stated, they relied on horses for hauling beginning to end. They never planned the long game and even thier tactics were slow to evolve. They were probably better at flexible defense than offense in the grand scheme of the war. In most theaters the SS had seperate chains of command and never really worked that out with the Army. Many of thier officers had little or no formal military training.
As far as the SS, well Waffen SS, they initially were highly trained, well armed, and exceedingly brainwashed. It's interesting that many of their most successful units were primarily from other than Germany. Later on many were nothing but butchers. Rounding up and killing civilians was one of their primary jobs. I've always found the Eastern front very interesting and today anyone who is interested can buy dozens of .99 ebooks. Tanks, SS, snipers, lots of inforamtion out there.
How do watch the video? There no video in the link?
Diamondback
12-03-19, 20:48
The way I see it, it wasn't one thing that killed the Germans, there were many factors. I think the biggest issue for them was all that stupid mega tank stuff and wanting everything to fit multiple roles.
Had they built 60,000+ Panzer IV tanks and just said to hell with the Tigers, dual purpose ME262s, semi auto rifles that are also bolt action if needed, and stupid crap like building pistols until May 1945, it would have been an uglier Eastern Theater. They went from Bltizkrieg to retreat as fast as you can and lost any slow rolling and problematic tanks that way. Mainly the "cats."
Also "prestige symbols" like Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau whose steel would have been better invested in a gazillion more U-boats and especially in counter-ASW capabilities. Not to mention the ludicrous insistence that even heavy bombers had to be dive bombers *stares pointedly at Heinkel He177 Greif*, or the lack of a properly built maritime patrol aircraft rather than the converted FW200 Kurier long-range airliner whose understrength structures regularly broke their backs on landing, among other catastrophic failures to the point that of hundreds built the maximum available strength at any single time was two dozen aircraft to cover the entire Atlantic and Mediterranean.
Sorry, guys, WWII's kinda my thing, though mainly between naval and air battles and the Southwest Pacific theater.
Not exactly in-line with the convo, but related: Anyone read The Liberation Triology by Rick Atkinson? I really enjoyed them and learned a lot.
CAMagnussen
12-04-19, 06:46
And keep in mind the SS, in particular, was "blitzed" on Meth for most of the war!
https://www.amazon.com/Blitzed-Drugs-Third-Norman-Ohler-ebook/dp/B01IAS9G94/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=blitzed&qid=1575463572&sr=8-1
Not exactly in-line with the convo, but related: Anyone read The Liberation Triology by Rick Atkinson? I really enjoyed them and learned a lot.
One of the best historical anthologies of WWII ever written. A third of each book is sources and footnotes. Atkinson knows history.
The German Army redefined the value of the NCO Corps and made them professionals. They also implemented the use of Mission Command all the way down to the squad level, combined with good NCOs it gave them incredible tactical flexibility. Der Führer lost his focus and came out of his role, thus ****ing things up to a galactic degree. If he would’ve just given direction to the generals and let them deal with the strategy and logistics, we’d all be speaking German now as we live under the Man in the High Castle.
I respectfully disagree with your statement that "we would all be speaking German now if Hitler had just let his generals make all the decisions". Germany would have lost the war regardless of who made the decisions. The war may have lasted longer, but the result would have been the same, the defeat of Germany.
Germany did not have a large enough population base to support a large scale military conflict, even before the Nazis started purging Germany of Jews and others that they deemed "undesirable". I would not be surprised if the Nazis removed 10-25% of their potential work and fighting force as a result of their purge. Forced labor and conscription from defeated nations is no replacement for citizens who truly believe in your cause.
I respectfully disagree with your statement that "we would all speaking German now if Hitler had just let his generals make all the decisions". Germany would have lost the war regardless of who made the decisions. The war may have lasted longer, but the result would have been the same, the defeat of Germany.
Germany did not have a large enough population base to support a large scale military conflict, even before the Nazis started purging Germany of Jews and others that they deemed "undesirable". I would not be surprised if the Nazis removed 10-25% of their potential work and fighting force as a result of their purge. Forced labor and conscription from defeated nations is no replacement for citizens who truly believe in your cause.
This.
Only hardcore, DMT addled Wehraboos actually think Rommel could have miracled up a successful German Red Dawn of the Eastern Seaboard.
First off, have fun getting planes and boats over. Second, whomever survived all that would get shot.
Thirdly, whomever survived THAT would get shot again.
America may be racist, violent, angry, anti-social, and bipolar AF but nobody and I mean nobody wants to learn to speak German or have some dude boss them around. That schtick only works in places with Monarchs. Man in High Castle is interesting I guess but I don’t see Americans wearing far out uniforms like that all day.
Honestly, America was more racist than the Nazis in a lot of ways. But at least we weren’t complete assholes about it.
This is why I am an arrogant American. Some other people might have cool stuff and far out fashion but at the end of the day, Americans just wanna be left alone.
So no. We’d never have in any scenario be speaking German and Germany almost caught an A Bomb.
And the mast patriotic film ever made was Stripes!
Der Führer lost his focus and came out of his role, thus ****ing things up to a galactic degree. If he would’ve just given direction to the generals and let them deal with the strategy and logistics, we’d all be speaking German now as we live under the Man in the High Castle.
We still would have developed the bomb first. Maybe not in time from keeping the reich out of London, but we'd have been able to keep them out of North America. The Cold War wouldn't be with the "former" USSR, but the reich. Japan would have still folded eventually. China would end up being the wild card. The reich would occupy most of the east, while North America would be allied and intact.
Agreed on one thing though. Hitler was BSC. Had he listened to his advisors, things would have needed up A LOT differently. Besides making his troops carry bolt action rifles, he made the designers focus on and build bombers instead of offensive and defensive fighter planes. Had he went with fighters instead, we may have never gotten air superiority. The bombing raids that brought the German industrial machine to it's knees never would have happened... THINK... The ME-262 could have been mass produced and brought on line a year or two earlier... Hitler nixed that idea...
crusader377
12-04-19, 12:09
Good discussion but I think many people over-emphasize German Military Capabilities. Bottom line Germany effectively lost any opportunity of winning the war in June 22, 1941 with the invasion of the Soviet Union. Russia was simply too big of an opponent to beat. Furthermore with Hitler declaring war on the United States on December 8, 1941 guaranteed that Germany would be defeated. Germany simply didn't have the manufacturing capacity or size to deal with the Soviet Union let alone the United States.
Wonder weapons like the Me-262 would have made no difference in the larger war simply because the U.S. would have rushed into service the P-80 which was being tested as early as 1943. The Germans had the habit of deploying very innovative weapons that weren't really sorted out operationally. Yes the Me-262 was cool but it wasn't reliable nor was it a serious operational weapon. The United States actually built better equipment overall for the warfighter than the Germans did.
Back to the Waffen SS it was a complete waste of time. The Germans would have been better off using the resources in building up their regular German Army. The whole reputation of the Waffen SS was built largely on the reputation of perhaps a half a dozen divisions which were lavishly equipped and had the pick of the best personnel Germany had to offer, ( 1st SS, 2nd SS, 3rd SS, 5th SS, and perhaps 9, 10, and 12 SS). The rest of their nearly 40 divisions were crap. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd SS often had 150-200 tanks in their TOE from 1943 onward while a standard German Panzer Division normally was operating with 75-100 tanks during that time period with few exceptions.
We still would have developed the bomb first. Maybe not in time from keeping the reich out of London, but we'd have been able to keep them out of North America. The Cold War wouldn't be with the "former" USSR, but the reich. Japan would have still folded eventually. China would end up being the wild card. The reich would occupy most of the east, while North America would be allied and intact.
Agreed on one thing though. Hitler was BSC. Had he listened to his advisors, things would have needed up A LOT differently. Besides making his troops carry bolt action rifles, he made the designers focus on and build bombers instead of offensive and defensive fighter planes. Had he went with fighters instead, we may have never gotten air superiority. The bombing raids that brought the German industrial machine to it's knees never would have happened... THINK... The ME-262 could have been mass produced and brought on line a year or two earlier... Hitler nixed that idea...
Respectfully, your scenario would not have happened. Germany just simply didn't have the population to prosecute a large scale conflict across multiple countries and over a long time period. Technology is great when it works, but it doesn't replace soldiers in the field, and you must have soldiers in the field if you want to hold territory. Germany tried to offset their personnel shortages with forced conscription from conquered countries with dismal results. Germany had the highest desertion rate during the war because they relied on foreign conscripts to offset their personnel needs. Germany was doomed the moment they invaded Poland which caused France and G.B. to declare war.
As Americans we like to think that the war in Europe would have been lost if we had not gotten involved militarily, and this couldn't be further from the truth. The Soviets would have crushed Germany without our help. It would have just taken a little longer.
crusader377
12-04-19, 12:34
Also "prestige symbols" like Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau whose steel would have been better invested in a gazillion more U-boats and especially in counter-ASW capabilities. Not to mention the ludicrous insistence that even heavy bombers had to be dive bombers *stares pointedly at Heinkel He177 Greif*, or the lack of a properly built maritime patrol aircraft rather than the converted FW200 Kurier long-range airliner whose understrength structures regularly broke their backs on landing, among other catastrophic failures to the point that of hundreds built the maximum available strength at any single time was two dozen aircraft to cover the entire Atlantic and Mediterranean.
Sorry, guys, WWII's kinda my thing, though mainly between naval and air battles and the Southwest Pacific theater.
Very true. The prestige ships were largely pointless. Sure the brand new Bismarck sank the Hood (a capable yet un-modernized WW1 design ship) but it turn was sank a week latter by a British taskforce consisting of the HMS KGV and HMS Rodney. Tirpitz sat in port the whole war until it was sank by British bombers. Largely the same with Gneisenau. Scharnhost sank some merchant ships and an outdated small British Carrier but it also was sank by the HMS Duke of York in an Artic sea battle.
The 150,000 plus tons of high grade steel alone and $660 Million Reichmarks cost would have been enough to build 7000 additional Panzer IV tanks which were actually operationally reliable.
America. Coca Cola, sometimes war.
I just want to lament the fact that Man in The High Castle pulled a GoT season 8 and I’m still mad af about it.
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I just want to lament the fact that Man in The High Castle pulled a GoT season 8 and I’m still mad af about it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Remember what they took from you
It's interesting that many of their most successful units were primarily from other than Germany.
I have heard from a few sources that stemmed from the Nazi's offering a better deal on issues such as property rights (assuming you weren't someone the Nazi's had the red ass against) than the .gov they lived under pre-invasion and/or/similar note hating communists which I recall was a primary drive for Larry Thorne(Lauri Törni) Firefly mentioned.
Respectfully, your scenario would not have happened. Germany just simply didn't have the population to prosecute a large scale conflict across multiple countries and over a long time period. Technology is great when it works, but it doesn't replace soldiers in the field, and you must have soldiers in the field if you want to hold territory. Germany tried to offset their personnel shortages with forced conscription from conquered countries with dismal results. Germany had the highest desertion rate during the war because they relied on foreign conscripts to offset their personnel needs. Germany was doomed the moment they invaded Poland which caused France and G.B. to declare war.
As Americans we like to think that the war in Europe would have been lost if we had not gotten involved militarily, and this couldn't be further from the truth. The Soviets would have crushed Germany without our help. It would have just taken a little longer.
I don't fully agree. With our keeping the German's busy, and the Lend Lease Program which literally saved the Soviets ass (1), I don't think it would have taken a little longer, but a lot longer, and the additional deaths of untold millions. Due to the shear size and population, and our help, no doubt the Soviets would have worn the German's down by attrition via guerilla warfare and such, but I tend to think it could have been years.
https://www.rbth.com/defence/2016/03/14/lend-lease-how-american-supplies-aided-the-ussr-in-its-darkest-hour_575559
Had Hitler honored his non aggression agreement with the Soviets, taken Europe, then offered the Soviets a seat at the table and been able to utilized their resources to his full advantage, history could be quite different as interesting "what if" history I think about. Without the Soviets, Germany was doomed sooner or later to be sure. Even stranger "what if" history, what if the UK had sided with Hitler as he'd actually expected them to?
The SS had pretty uniforms and looked futuristic but at the end of the day they were a political group.
For that you can thank Hugo Boss, not joking. On Netflix I watched "The Devil Next Door" and was stunned by how flawed everything is when they go after these guys.
Diamondback
12-04-19, 15:45
I don't fully agree. With our keeping the German's busy, and the Lend Lease Program which literally saved the Soviets ass (1), I don't think it would have taken a little longer, but a lot longer, and the additional deaths of untold millions. Due to the shear size and population, and our help, no doubt the Soviets would have warn the German's down by attrition via guerilla warfare and such, but I tend to think it could have been years.
https://www.rbth.com/defence/2016/03/14/lend-lease-how-american-supplies-aided-the-ussr-in-its-darkest-hour_575559
Had Hitler honored his non aggression agreement with the Soviets, taken Europe, then offered the Soviets a seat at the table and been able to utilized their resources to his full advantage, history could be quite different as interesting "what if" history I think about. Without the Soviets, Germany was doomed sooner or later to be sure. Even stranger "what if" history, what if the UK had sided with Hitler as he'd actually expected them to?
The other thing is, even if Hitler had honored Molotov-Ribbentrop, eventually Stalin WOULDN'T. A regular two-peas-in-a-pod situation between them, each making plans to double-cross the other before even putting ink to paper.
Where can I watch this?
The links in the OP and the titles of the thread may be a hint...
The other thing is, even if Hitler had honored Molotov-Ribbentrop, eventually Stalin WOULDN'T. A regular two-peas-in-a-pod situation between them, each making plans to double-cross the other before even putting ink to paper.
Psychopaths gonna Psychopath not doubt, but depending on how things played out, it may have been an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" agreement as long as it suited them to do so, as we did with the commies. Apparently, Stalin refused to be believe Hitler was attacking them - greatly slowing down their response time - so he must have felt assured Hitler was going to keep up his end of the agreement, at least for far longer than he did.
Psychopaths gonna Psychopath not doubt, but depending on how things played out, it may have been an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" agreement as long as it suited them to do so, as we did with the commies. Apparently, Stalin refused to be believe Hitler was attacking them - greatly slowing down their response time - so he must have felt assured Hitler was going to keep up his end of the agreement, at least for far longer than he did.
It really didn't matter who felt what way about who. If the Germans didn't surrender when they did, Little Boy would have been tested in Berlin. That is why it was specifically created. When the Germans surrenders, even some people involved in the creation of the atomic bomb objected to it's use on Japan. A lot of those physicists created the bomb to use on Germany and Germany only.
So people who say "what if" regarding Me262s, Stg45s, V2 rockets and other wonder weapons are all missing the fact that any technological superiority, even one that allows Hitler to defeat Stalin and occupy Russia are forgetting that all roads lead to an Atomic Berlin.
If the war dragged out past 1945, most likely Germany would have still fallen to the sheer number of soldiers and tanks Stalin had at his disposal and his willingness to see them all as disposable and replaceable. The only thing that really changes is Stalin ending up with a lot more of Europe than what was agreed upon at Yalta. But if for some reason Stalin is unable to take Germany, then that is where the first US atomic weapon will be used against enemy forces.
Ironically, if we did use atomic weapons on Berlin and other cities in Germany, that might have shocked Japan into surrender as they would have had a different perspective of what the US was willing to do, while they still had time to prevent such a bomb from being used in Tokyo and potentially killing the Emperor.
Germany got very lucky they quit before they became the testing ground. Japan is very, very lucky we dropped two bombs on them and spared them an invasion of the home islands. The destruction at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are almost negligible compared to what would have happened if we invaded Kyushu and Honshu, especially given that Stalin was poised to invade Hokkaido.
It would have costs us dearly in casualties, but we'd have inflicted horror the likes of which the Japanese had never seen and they'd pay in a 10 of theirs for every one of ours kind of way. We would have been forced to destroy almost the entire population of Japan. They got off light.
That is very good point on the A bombs and invasion. Look to Okinawa how the civilian population was just cliff diving onto rocks. I'd imagine, if homeland invasion took place, that everyone capable of holding a gun/grenade/etc. would be given one. Defending an island vs defending The Emporer, who was a deity, would have cost an insane amount of death and destruction.
The other thing about the A bombs, they didn't do the destruction that conventional bombs did, nor the fire bombing of Tokyo. Plus, they were on team Nazi. Plus they committed horrendous wartime atrocities against both soldiers and civs. There was literally no one they wouldn't torture. Unpopular opinion in today's age but F Japan, they earned what they got. I am happy both Germany and Japan rebuilt however, I just wish they were so left.
That is very good point on the A bombs and invasion. Look to Okinawa how the civilian population was just cliff diving onto rocks. I'd imagine, if homeland invasion took place, that everyone capable of holding a gun/grenade/etc. would be given one. Defending an island vs defending The Emporer, who was a deity, would have cost an insane amount of death and destruction.
The other thing about the A bombs, they didn't do the destruction that conventional bombs did, nor the fire bombing of Tokyo. Plus, they were on team Nazi. Plus they committed horrendous wartime atrocities against both soldiers and civs. There was literally no one they wouldn't torture. Unpopular opinion in today's age but F Japan, they earned what they got. I am happy both Germany and Japan rebuilt however, I just wish they were so left.
To a point, I kinda agree but then again....
HK416s and Anime, yo.
That is very good point on the A bombs and invasion. Look to Okinawa how the civilian population was just cliff diving onto rocks. I'd imagine, if homeland invasion took place, that everyone capable of holding a gun/grenade/etc. would be given one. Defending an island vs defending The Emporer, who was a deity, would have cost an insane amount of death and destruction.
The other thing about the A bombs, they didn't do the destruction that conventional bombs did, nor the fire bombing of Tokyo. Plus, they were on team Nazi. Plus they committed horrendous wartime atrocities against both soldiers and civs. There was literally no one they wouldn't torture. Unpopular opinion in today's age but F Japan, they earned what they got. I am happy both Germany and Japan rebuilt however, I just wish they were so left.
It isn't a matter of being more destructive, you are absolutely correct about the firebombing of Tokyo taking more lives and causing more damage, it's the idea of the unknown. Had we bombed Berlin, nobody would have had a real understanding of it's capability, hell we barely understood what we were actually dealing with and we built it. Fear of the unknown and fear that we might be able to kill the emperor with one superbomb "might" have been enough. But we obviously can't say because many in Japan were willing to literally fight to the last man.
But fear of the bomb and our demonstrated willingness to use it kept Stalin out of Hokkaido. It's hard to say what the implications might have been if we used it in Berlin first.
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