View Full Version : Shootout in Florida
Bad ending for bystanders
Broward county police get in a shootout with jewelry store robbers in an intersection. Four dead.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2019-12-05/robbery-leads-to-chase-with-stolen-ups-truck-shootout%3Fcontext%3Damp
Coal Dragger
12-05-19, 23:46
More incompetence by Broward County, story checks out.
Prayers out for the innocent victims and their families, as well as for the officers involved. This is going to be a rough one if police bullets killed the innocents, and probably even if they didn't.
Wow. That looked like a shit show. Surprised more bystanders weren't hit.
SomeOtherGuy
12-06-19, 13:26
I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but the tactics remind me mostly of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwR1-aRTyyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwR1-aRTyyM
https://i.imgflip.com/3innol.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/3innol)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
To be fair, I can’t imagine a firefight like that in the middle of a busy intersection going well for just about anyone besides dedicated HRTs.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
12-06-19, 14:17
"Draw it again!!!!"
To be fair, I can’t imagine a firefight like that in the middle of a busy intersection going well for just about anyone besides dedicated HRTs.
When did identifying targets go out of style? Want to make noise? Join a rock band.
Was that civ car being driven forward as concealment (not cover) driven by its owner? I hope not.
There was a back robbery in Aurora a few years ago. An electronic tag in the cash allowed the cops to follow the robber and isolate him to a busy intersection- but not identify the exact car. So what do the cops do? Lock down the intersection and start pulling people out of their cars at gun point, cuffing everyone and putting them on the side of road. All with an armed bank robber somewhere out there.
Sure, pull me out of my car at gun point, cuff me and leave me defenseless in the middle of a gunfight that might kick off at anytime.
Interestingly this one started with the owner of the place they went to rob shooting it out with them. No doubt, idiots will blame the store owner some how for not just handing over his stuff, or some other armchair BS.
Out of my lane, but of they perps started shooting at LE in the middle of all that traffic (as claimed), not sure what else they could/should have done. Obviously there was no time to coordinate anything and once bullets started flying from the stolen truck into traffic and at LE, stopping the threat ASAP makes sense, hopefully not done in a spray and prey manner...
"Draw it again!!!!"
When did identifying targets go out of style? Want to make noise? Join a rock band.
Was that civ car being driven forward as concealment (not cover) driven by its owner? I hope not.
There was a back robbery in Aurora a few years ago. An electronic tag in the cash allowed the cops to follow the robber and isolate him to a busy intersection- but not identify the exact car. So what do the cops do? Lock down the intersection and start pulling people out of their cars at gun point, cuffing everyone and putting them on the side of road. All with an armed bank robber somewhere out there.
Sure, pull me out of my car at gun point, cuff me and leave me defenseless in the middle of a gunfight that might kick off at anytime.
When they start shooting at you? That would seem a pretty good indicator they're your targets no? If LE took the first shots, that's another issue.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/447c69ae702c25ecb9fbc72246e24c57.jpg
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donlapalma
12-06-19, 15:17
That was some crazy chit. If I was in one of those cars I would be punching it and ramming other cars just to get out of there.
One of the problems with multi-jurisdictional response to an ongoing like this is communications - is everyone hearing everything. Another problem can be 'he's not from my agency, I don't need to stand by' etc.
This will be very, very, costly for LE.
When they start shooting at you? That would seem a pretty good indicator they're your targets no? If LE took the first shots, that's another issue.
Everyone of those officers shooting had a choice - they could have pretended not to hear the call, they could have laid back and not been up front, they could have sought cover and taken high probability shots, they could have held their fire.
The driver, and the citizens on the expressway, didn't have the luxury on choice.
You unass a patrol unit on a call with a rifle, hell, any kind of police equipment, and you are making the promise to the public that you know how to use the equipment correctly to protect.
At some point they gotta run out of gas. This could have been a talk down.
Nope.
Had to play Heat.
Plus they had a bird in the air.
Nope. Had to play Heat.
At some point they gotta run out of gas. This could have been a talk down.
Nope.
Had to play Heat.
Plus they had a bird in the air.
Nope. Had to play Heat.
Yup...Pretty much.
And now some poor UPS driver trying to live his life feed his family is in a bag and his kids gonna grow up without a dad.
The cops all went home safe, though, and they got to play with their Delta Force shit...so high fives and ass grabs all around I suppose.
Everyone of those officers shooting had a choice - they could have pretended not to hear the call, they could have laid back and not been up front, they could have sought cover and taken high probability shots, they could have held their fire.
The driver, and the citizens on the expressway, didn't have the luxury on choice.
You unass a patrol unit on a call with a rifle, hell, any kind of police equipment, and you are making the promise to the public that you know how to use the equipment correctly to protect.
I will be interested to read the details on the event once it's available to better understand how/why it unfolded as it did.
I will be interested to read the details on the event once it's available to better understand how/why it unfolded as it did.
It’ll unfold like the supermajority of these dumpster fires do... cops ran with limited info, very little to completely uncoordinated response, immediately went in guns blazing.
Two innocents dead.
This unfolded live on CNN hard to not draw some conclusions based on what was a complete disaster of a response for the cops.
At some point they gotta run out of gas. This could have been a talk down.
Nope.
Had to play Heat.
Plus they had a bird in the air.
Nope. Had to play Heat.
But think of the cool war stories they can tell at the next choir practice.
They said on the radio this morning that it was the UPS driver's first day on the job. How f****d up is that?
Shit show all around on this one. Armed felons on the run with a hostage, snarled in heavy traffic. I will be the first to criticize cops if necessary, but I don't know which way to go on this one. F****d up situation.
During that same news snippet on the radio this morning they said "Four people were killed. No officers were injured". While it's great and all that no cops got hurt, two innocent people are dead.
They said on the radio this morning that it was the UPS driver's first day on the job. How f****d up is that?
Shit show all around on this one. Armed felons on the run with a hostage, snarled in heavy traffic. I will be the first to criticize cops if necessary, but I don't know which way to go on this one. F****d up situation.
During that same news snippet on the radio this morning they said "Four people were killed. No officers were injured". While it's great and all that no cops got hurt, two innocent people are dead.
If you watch the video of the full 25 mile or so chase there were many points where the chase is on a more or less empty stretch of highway. Upwards of 50 cops from 3 different agencies. But yet they choose to open fire during the most crowded point of the chase. This one is on the cops, bad decisions, bad tactics and now we have two dead innocents and a whole lot of bad visuals where it appears the cops were using occupied innocents vehicles as shields firing what some accounts suggest was over 200 rounds.
dwhitehorne
12-06-19, 18:53
Not a good spot for a gun fight but with multiple units involved and the perps started shooting no Alpha is going to hold their return fire. No one was thinking about the 4th rule of gun safety on that scene. I watched the video a few times and was intrigued that the officers on the passenger side of the van had the foresight to stitch the side of the UPS truck two feet behind the door to nail the perp. I saw the glass spray blowing out the windshield and wondered if officers were just shooting the back of the UPS truck and just getting pass throughs. I couldn't tell from the video. There will be lots of checks written for that scene. David
Spanish language news is showing a pretty clear and uncensored view of the UPS driver being gunned down like a dog.
Leaves behind two little girls, 3 and 6, who will never know their father.
Unreal.
Mauser KAR98K
12-06-19, 22:13
Spanish language news is showing a pretty clear and uncensored view of the UPS driver being gunned down like a dog.
Leaves behind two little girls, 3 and 6, who will never know their father.
Unreal.
I watched that.
The officers that were shooting were on the passenger side were at an off angle (away from the fatal funnel) as they engaged. The hostage was behind the shooter the police were engaging as he tried to slide out.
Off angle with bad guy in focal point.
Tunnel vision.
Probably First combat experience.
Fight or flight.
Everyone shooting.
Condition Red since the police chase, and getting fired upon.
Rush hour.
All of those elements are a major factor that the officers didn't have in their minds. It was just shoot bad guy with these cool tools I have. Some probably shot at the van because everyone else was shooting. Don't want to be that guy who didn't fire at bad guys.
These factors in force-on-force engagements are know, and should have been taught to these officers. When I went through the Academy in Florida in 2003, these very factors were mentioned, and we were told to read further about them. (Iwould later do so in college for a paper I did for the benefits of shooting sports that led me down a rabbit of the mind during combat).
Sad to say but at the height of the situation and the shooting, those officers probably didn't realize the hostage was in their field of fire trying to escape. The one further over to the right may have seen him,but I wager his focus was with the bad guy and their gun.
That poor UPS driver would have been better off lying flat on the floor and in the back of the truck. But fight it flight and panic and stress had their grip on him, and all he wanted was to get away. It's not his fault. It's what the untrained mind goes for. And a man like that never had any reason to rain for that.
As for the officers taking up cover behind occupied vehicles: What. The. ****!?
El Pistolero
12-07-19, 00:30
**** every cop involved in that shooting, incompetent fools the whole lot of them.
**** every cop involved in that shooting, incompetent fools the whole lot of them.
By all means, please, share with the class how you would have done things so much better?
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the AR-15 Junkie
12-07-19, 01:40
Seems like a lot of people in this thread not big fan of the cops, ..............add me to the list.
What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.
Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.
They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too.
Dont believe me, Google is your best friend.
That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.
Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
I watched that.
The officers that were shooting were on the passenger side were at an off angle (away from the fatal funnel) as they engaged. The hostage was behind the shooter the police were engaging as he tried to slide out.
Off angle with bad guy in focal point.
Tunnel vision.
Probably First combat experience.
Fight or flight.
Everyone shooting.
Condition Red since the police chase, and getting fired upon.
Rush hour.
All of those elements are a major factor that the officers didn't have in their minds. It was just shoot bad guy with these cool tools I have. Some probably shot at the van because everyone else was shooting. Don't want to be that guy who didn't fire at bad guys.
These factors in force-on-force engagements are know, and should have been taught to these officers. When I went through the Academy in Florida in 2003, these very factors were mentioned, and we were told to read further about them. (Iwould later do so in college for a paper I did for the benefits of shooting sports that led me down a rabbit of the mind during combat).
The fact that they were 'mentioned' and not driven in with force-on-force scenarios or use-of-force simulations (which I assume you would have mentioned) is one of the reasons stuff like this happens.
What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.
Painting with a pretty broad brush there zippy. I don't think the officers in this case were uncaring, rather they were incompetent, maybe through no fault of their own.
Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.
That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.
This is the article you directly quoted from in the first sentence in this quote: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/parkland-shooting-lawsuit-ruling-police.html This is the article that outlines how Peterson was arrested and charged: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/us/parkland-scot-peterson.html Notice the dates.
The case law has been pretty specific in this respect, absent a 'special relationship' the police have no duty to protect individual members of society. Think about it and you can probably figure out why, it isn't a plot. Unfortunately, such a ruling does, in a case like this, seem criminally unfair.
I don't agree with the Federal Judge's ruling, but she was probably thinking that Peterson had done some police shit to protect the students at large: 1) he radioed in; and 2) sounded a 'Code Red' which locked down the school (in hindsight not a good thing).
They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too. Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
Again overly harsh, I sincerely doubt any of those officers thought 'hey, I have no specific duty to protect individual members of society, free-fire zone.'
TheChunkNorris
12-07-19, 04:07
At some point they gotta run out of gas. This could have been a talk down.
Nope.
Had to play Heat.
Plus they had a bird in the air.
Nope. Had to play Heat.
The reason a lot of the area was clear was because the police were trying to clear traffic so the UPS truck could continue. If anyone has been in The Gables at 4pm on a Friday can tell you... that area is always severely congested and surprised they cleared as much to get them on the HWY and to Miramar.
Has there been any news on who fired the 1st shot? It’s really easy to say they were in the wrong but man let’s not do the MrGunsandGear and let this play out. There was a local report early on stating the felons shot a lady in the head in the Gables so there’s that. I think Miami Dade utilizes body cams so there’s going to be a ton of evidence to go through. If there were 3 agencies... holy cow there’s going to be A LOT of statements, body cam footage and evidence to comb through.
Nobody misunderstand me.
You shouldn’t hate the concept of LE. And I was good with absolutely everything until they rushed the car.
Somebody should have been taking charge.
Like...if they aren’t actively shooting. Set up a perimeter.
Easy to say. Hard to do.
Plus there is sympathetic fire where folks just do a mad minute.
It was a goat screw. We can cry in our pillows for UPS driver and all but then again; that could’ve gotten worse with more civilian fatalities.
If you notice in the movie Heat they John Wayned it.
I don’t have all the answers. And you have made a point. Fair is fair. I didn’t support the drunk guy so I won’t totally condemn BCSO at this point.
Plus, as I have said before, everyone wants these solid answers for every possible scenario and it doesn’t play out that way.
Seems like a lot of people in this thread not big fan of the cops, ..............add me to the list.
What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.
Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.
They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too.
Dont believe me, Google is your best friend.
That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.
Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
I'm not on that list, and a lot commenting - also being highly critical of how the event was handled - are cops. That does not mean there are not some chit cops, a lot of good cops doing a difficult job.
Nobody misunderstand me.
You shouldn’t hate the concept of LE. And I was good with absolutely everything until they rushed the car.
Somebody should have been taking charge.
Like...if they aren’t actively shooting. Set up a perimeter.
Easy to say. Hard to do.
Plus there is sympathetic fire where folks just do a mad minute.
It was a goat screw. We can cry in our pillows for UPS driver and all but then again; that could’ve gotten worse with more civilian fatalities.
If you notice in the movie Heat they John Wayned it.
I don’t have all the answers. And you have made a point. Fair is fair. I didn’t support the drunk guy so I won’t totally condemn BCSO at this point.
Plus, as I have said before, everyone wants these solid answers for every possible scenario and it doesn’t play out that way.
But according to what I have read they were. I assume due to the cars full of people all around, it would not be an option to not engage the shooters in that case yes? Also, what as the FBI doing there? I see guys putting on FBI jackets in the vid. I'm wondering if the Jewelry store robbery was some FBI op gone bad. Maybe they didn't count on the store owner being armed?
Don’t read too much into FBI involvement. Every metro area has FBI moping about for bank robberies and kidnappings.
And per all that, like I said, easy to say, easy to suggest, but hard to actually do.
There’s how we want things to go and then there’s how they actually go.
The reason a lot of the area was clear was because the police were trying to clear traffic so the UPS truck could continue. If anyone has been in The Gables at 4pm on a Friday can tell you... that area is always severely congested and surprised they cleared as much to get them on the HWY and to Miramar.
Has there been any news on who fired the 1st shot? It’s really easy to say they were in the wrong but man let’s not do the MrGunsandGear and let this play out. There was a local report early on stating the felons shot a lady in the head in the Gables so there’s that. I think Miami Dade utilizes body cams so there’s going to be a ton of evidence to go through. If there were 3 agencies... holy cow there’s going to be A LOT of statements, body cam footage and evidence to comb through.
What does Mrgunsngear have to do with any of this?
ruckusjuice
12-07-19, 10:13
But according to what I have read they were. I assume due to the cars full of people all around, it would not be an option to not engage the shooters in that case yes? Also, what as the FBI doing there? I see guys putting on FBI jackets in the vid. I'm wondering if the Jewelry store robbery was some FBI op gone bad. Maybe they didn't count on the store owner being armed?
One of the core missions of the FBI is to provide assistance to state and local law enforcement. You’re talking about a scenario in which dozens of officers from five agencies engaged in a pursuit and firefight. There are multiple crime scenes spanning miles. There will be dozens of witnesses to interview. This would overwhelm the capabilities of all but the largest agencies in the country. Plus, the FBI is an agency that is respected and was not directly involved in this cluster so they add an air of impartiality to the investigation. On top of all that, the Hobbs Act criminalizes robberies that affect interstate commerce which puts the hijacking of a UPS truck squarely in FBI jurisdiction.
One of the core missions of the FBI is to provide assistance to state and local law enforcement. You’re talking about a scenario in which dozens of officers from five agencies engaged in a pursuit and firefight. There are multiple crime scenes spanning miles. There will be dozens of witnesses to interview. This would overwhelm the capabilities of all but the largest agencies in the country. Plus, the FBI is an agency that is respected and was not directly involved in this cluster so they add an air of impartiality to the investigation. On top of all that, the Hobbs Act criminalizes robberies that affect interstate commerce which puts the hijacking of a UPS truck squarely in FBI jurisdiction.
I understand the mission, but being there right as it happens, is another matter. Per comments above "...Every metro area has FBI moping about..." which may explain how they were able to be on scene during the shoot out. I thought perhaps it was an FBI op that went bad at the store as these guys were wanted for prior crimes and perhaps the FBI had a lead on their next target and it went south, for example, they were blocked from getting to their get away car and had to hijack the UPS truck.
Did they not have any plans of escape? Does not quite add up for me.
So either the FBI was "moping about" and was in the right time and place to get into the shoot out on the road, or, they were already involved beginning at the store.
I don't know the answer to that, am interested to find out.
Don’t read too much into FBI involvement. Every metro area has FBI moping about for bank robberies and kidnappings.
And per all that, like I said, easy to say, easy to suggest, but hard to actually do.
There’s how we want things to go and then there’s how they actually go.
Understood, but once they hit the traffic and were all bottled up and were firing at LE, then what options do they have at that point? I mean, we all know training is often lacking and it's a cluster when you have a handful of different groups on scene for coordination and such, but as you say, easy to criticize when you're not taking rnds and it's a dynamic scary ass situation. Using civi vehicles as cover with people in the vehicles was the most disturbing visual for me as a non LE. I'd think getting people the hell out of those cars and telling them stay low and get away would be a top priority, 20/20 and that.
I will concede that hiding behind occupied civilian vehicles is a very Low T move.
And if someone shoots at me, they are probably gonna die.
All that said, it was gonna be a Fecal Cabaret as soon as they got boxed in by traffic no matter what. I will not pretend to know the best possible solution.
A pull back may have made things better or worse.
Sometimes life hands you real world Kobayashi Marus.
I will concede that hiding behind occupied civilian vehicles is a very Low T move.
And if someone shoots at me, they are probably gonna die.
All that said, it was gonna be a Fecal Cabaret as soon as they got boxed in by traffic no matter what. I will not pretend to know the best possible solution.
A pull back may have made things better or worse.
Sometimes life hands you real world Kobayashi Marus.
Pretty much all I was implying as it pertains to the various ninja comments of how they coulda/shoulda done it better by some others here. I'd hope there's some lessons learned from this event as to how they can improve in the future, and the loss of non combatants sucks nads big time.
I'd hope they conclude it was not done as well as it could have been, but not being LE and never having been in such a situation, I'm also not sure what other options they had at that time that may have made things worse too.
At some point they gotta run out of gas. This could have been a talk down.
Nope.
Had to play Heat.
Plus they had a bird in the air.
Nope. Had to play Heat.
Before reading further in the thread, this was my thought.
Got a hostage, easy to find vehicle, got a helicopter on it: hang back, way back. Get other copters ready and coordination with other agencies. Let the bad guys cool down some, too.
Would the cops there have done the same if they knew it was one of their own hostage inside that truck?
Even if you're being fired at, if you're back stop isnt good (in this case, other cops and general public) you can't return fire. (Unless you have the weapon and discipline to very carefully get 100% hits)
Otherwise keep moving for a better shot, angle, or real cover.
Very sad event.
Before reading further in the thread, this was my thought.
Got a hostage, easy to find vehicle, got a helicopter on it: hang back, way back. Get other copters ready and coordination with other agencies. Let the bad guys cool down some, too.
Would the cops there have done the same if they knew it was one of their own hostage inside that truck?
Even if you're being fired at, if you're back stop isnt good (in this case, other cops and general public) you can't return fire. (Unless you have the weapon and discipline to very carefully get 100% hits)
Otherwise keep moving for a better shot, angle, or real cover.
Very sad event.
Playing devils advocate, the goblins are firing from the truck and don't give a damn who they hit, do you sit there and wait for that perfect shot or do you make the decision to stop the threat asap under less than ideal conditions? Under some circumstances, where not responding may be the less ideal choice to responding under less than perfect conditions. Lets go with this: LE took cover, maneuvered for a good shot, and meanwhile, 3,4, 6, etc people in those cars are shot. Now what? People would lose their minds with "you cowardly bastards, why didn't you engage them immediately!"
There comes a time where damn if you do and damned if you don't and a terrible decision is made under stress that one option may = less deaths than the other terrible decision.
The goblins have a say and some times people die, and that sucks big time, but some times there's losing big and losing bigger, and no "win" for the day.
The UPS truck
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5x2fATDmph/?igshid=a89vsm04gsec
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MountainRaven
12-07-19, 12:23
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/529830624387923968/652937751762567198/78364864_1388703991299657_2301146196187545600_o.png
Playing devils advocate...Lets go with this: LE took cover, maneuvered for a good shot, and meanwhile, 3,4, 6, etc people in those cars are shot. Now what? People would lose their minds with "you cowardly bastards, why didn't you engage them immediately!"
The goblins have a say and some times people die, and that sucks big time, but some times there's losing big and losing bigger, and no "win" for the day.
Yea, but I think backing off when they saw the traffic stopped might have kept the BG from panicking.
I'd guess the BG was only shooting at the Police, not everybody.
I would not have shot back even if I was being shot at unless I was 100% certain of a good hit. I'd rather risk the incoming bullets than shoot a cop or innocent.
This cant be the first time these hard lessons have been learned. And it's so sad theyll be an empty chair at two tables on Christmas Day.
Spanish language news is showing a pretty clear and uncensored view of the UPS driver being gunned down like a dog.
Leaves behind two little girls, 3 and 6, who will never know their father.
Unreal.
can you post a link to that vid?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-19, 13:45
"Well this is what I know I would've done." - some tool who has never been placed in a situation like this
"I know that if I I did X, then Y would've happened." - some other tool who posts on the internet about what he would do in these situations without ever having done anything in his life remotely dangerous beyond bungey jumping when he was 19.
M4c...the new arfcom.
Yea, but I think backing off when they saw the traffic stopped might have kept the BG from panicking.
Or, seeing thy were stuck, jumped out and taken a bunch more hostages in a different vehicle. They'd also been firing on LE during the long chase, so again, that shipped seemed to have sailed.
I'd guess the BG was only shooting at the Police, not everybody.
While paying close attention to who the backstop was? Never heard of a goblin yet who cared who they shot in such a situation.
I would not have shot back even if I was being shot at unless I was 100% certain of a good hit. I'd rather risk the incoming bullets than shoot a cop or innocent.
See comments above. If that inaction actually caused more death, then that would double suck. If the terrible decision is to stop the goblin now to prevent something even worse, is action worse than inaction? I don't know the answer to that Q, but some times there's simply not happy endings, only less terrible endings to a terrible situation created by the goblins.
This cant be the first time these hard lessons have been learned. And it's so sad theyll be an empty chair at two tables on Christmas Day.
That's the Q, do they learn something from it and act accordingly, or do they go back to biz as usual? I don't know the answer, and I have no doubts it could have been done better, but also easy to say as 20/20.
I'm willing/able to see both sides of this until I have more hard details to read.
"Well this is what I know I would've done." - some tool who has never been placed in a situation like this
"I know that if I I did X, then Y would've happened." - some other tool who posts on the internet about what he would do in these situations without ever having done anything in his life remotely dangerous beyond bungey jumping when he was 19.
M4c...the new arfcom.
It’s not that bad but yeah.
Barfcom has a lot of Best Buy salesmen and DUI lawyers who are experts on everything.
Like....At the end of the day, we weren’t there.
Seems like a lot of people in this thread not big fan of the cops, ..............add me to the list.
What most American citizens dont even know is that police have NO DUTY to protect you, or that UPS driver, they did not care.
Neither the US Constitution, nor any state law, impose any duty upon any police officers to protect individual persons from harm, even when they know the harm will occur. Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution and not be liable.
They didn't give 2 $hits about that UPS driver as they had no legal obligation too.
Dont believe me, Google is your best friend.
That coward cop that fled the high school in Parkland Florida when the shooting started in Feb 2018 , was sued, and the courts found in the cops favor, that he was hired as a security guard but had no legal duty to protect anyone. He was in his right to flee.
Those cops had no duty to protect that UPS driver. He was just in their way.
Wow. Take that ridiculous shit somewhere else.
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-19, 14:12
It's becoming an increasingly violent world. Don't talk like how the people who choose to deal with these violent problems do it? That's fine, become a part of the solution. Most agencies have a tiny training budget, tiny ammo budget, share a range with multiple other agencies or even use public ranges, many are even too short staffed to train more than once or twice a year.
Vote for budget increases so they can hire more people and afford to train more often. Volunteer, or apply. Buy a case of 9mm and 556 for your local pd. Do something. Internet complaining only does nothing, but you know that already.
Until then, men and women who choose to go into harms way are going to continue to do so. Are we giving them what it takes to succeed?
But they should be seeking this kind of training on their own!
-you think the lower middle class cop working at a short staffed agency who can barely afford to pay his family's bills can afford to fly to training classes constantly?
But they are already too militarized!
-how do you expect cops to combat militarized badguys?
But they should've backed off!
-and then every screams that they didn't do anything to save people.
And blah, blah, blah. Stop complaining, do something about it. Until then it's just a bunch of Mrgunsngear and his 3 per centers.
The callous disregard the Police Spokesman had for the innocent lives lost is off the chart shocking. Seriously, if this guy had access to a JDAM I think he would have used it and just blamed the 100+ innocent deaths on the criminals. Unbelievable.
It's becoming an increasingly violent world. Don't talk like how the people who choose to deal with these violent problems do it? That's fine, become a part of the solution. Most agencies have a tiny training budget, tiny ammo budget, share a range with multiple other agencies or even use public ranges, many are even too short staffed to train more than once or twice a year.
Vote for budget increases so they can hire more people and afford to train more often. Volunteer, or apply. Buy a case of 9mm and 556 for your local pd. Do something. Internet complaining only does nothing, but you know that already.
Until then, men and women who choose to go into harms way are going to continue to do so. Are we giving them what it takes to succeed?
But they should be seeking this kind of training on their own!
-you think the lower middle class cop working at a short staffed agency who can barely afford to pay his family's bills can afford to fly to training classes constantly?
But they are already too militarized!
-how do you expect cops to combat militarized badguys?
But they should've backed off!
-and then every screams that they didn't do anything to save people.
And blah, blah, blah. Stop complaining, do something about it. Until then it's just a bunch of Mrgunsngear and his 3 per centers.
Honestly this is a very authentic post. Like I said in another thread. Everybody thinks police should be 25 year old former Airborne Rangers with Masters in Psychology willing to work for very modest money. If you make any coin it’s because you part timed yourself to death or you skipped the whole family bit and wore your same clothes from high school for longer than you probably should (“Hey bro, where’d you get those 90s clothes?” Um...the 90s...)
Doesn’t work that way.
We both know that.
Shootouts don’t happen everyday.
I feel like the public (and most egregiously the Internet) expects Delta Force results for Arby’s pay.
I’ve been laid up almost half a year of my life convalescing before due to other people’s bullshit.
Nobody cared but close friends and family.
So yeah...
The callous disregard the Police Spokesman had for the innocent lives lost is off the chart shocking. Seriously, if this guy had access to a JDAM I think he would have used it and just blamed the 100+ innocent deaths on the criminals. Unbelievable.
Did we watch the same news clip? What is he supposed to do? Cry his eyes out? Choke on his words?
He just stated what happened. He may well be a douche canoe but at the same time he just gave a fairly generic statement. There WILL be lawsuits over this so on a technical level, I cannot blame him.
It's becoming an increasingly violent world. Don't talk like how the people who choose to deal with these violent problems do it? That's fine, become a part of the solution. Most agencies have a tiny training budget, tiny ammo budget, share a range with multiple other agencies or even use public ranges, many are even too short staffed to train more than once or twice a year.
Vote for budget increases so they can hire more people and afford to train more often. Volunteer, or apply. Buy a case of 9mm and 556 for your local pd. Do something. Internet complaining only does nothing, but you know that already.
Until then, men and women who choose to go into harms way are going to continue to do so. Are we giving them what it takes to succeed?
But they should be seeking this kind of training on their own!
-you think the lower middle class cop working at a short staffed agency who can barely afford to pay his family's bills can afford to fly to training classes constantly?
But they are already too militarized!
-how do you expect cops to combat militarized badguys?
But they should've backed off!
-and then every screams that they didn't do anything to save people.
And blah, blah, blah. Stop complaining, do something about it. Until then it's just a bunch of Mrgunsngear and his 3 per centers.
Didn't see you mention anything about people arming themselves, just providing goods, services, and cash to LE so they can possibly get better. Is that due to the major anti gun advances we have been seeing in Florida and other state governments recently?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-19, 14:56
Didn't see you mention anything about people arming themselves, just providing goods, services, and cash to LE so they can possibly get better. Is that due to the major anti gun advances we have been seeing in Florida and other state governments recently?
Oh Jesus Christ. You've labeled me as lots of things jsbhike, you know, evil cop, etc. Now I'm an anti 2a statist.
Your posts reek of bullshit.
Oh Jesus Christ. You've labeled me as lots of things jsbhike, you know, evil cop, etc. Now I'm an anti 2a statist.
Your posts reek of bullshit.
Nice try, but I have never labeled you as anything and I didn't even know what occupation you held.
That Florida and other .govs have been on the rampage against 2nd amendment remnants is obvious.
Nice try, but I have never labeled you as anything and I didn't even know what occupation you held.
That Florida and other .govs have been on the rampage against 2nd amendment remnants is obvious.
If this thread gets locked it’ll be the bizarre BS like yours that’s to blame...
Did we watch the same news clip? What is he supposed to do? Cry his eyes out? Choke on his words?
He just stated what happened. He may well be a douche canoe but at the same time he just gave a fairly generic statement. There WILL be lawsuits over this so on a technical level, I cannot blame him.
Maybe we saw different clips. The one I saw, he did not "just state what happened". Nor did he "just give a fairy generic statement". He complete absolved his officers of any mistakes or responsibility before the investigation is even complete, implying no matter how reckless he officers *might* have been, or violated department policies or orders, his men are not responsible.
Maybe we saw different clips. The one I saw, he did not "just state what happened". Nor did he "just give a fairy generic statement". He complete absolved his officers of any mistakes or responsibility before the investigation is even complete, implying no matter how reckless he officers *might* have been, or violated department policies or orders, his men are not responsible.
May I get a link to the one you are talking about so I have the whole picture?
Nice try, but I have never labeled you as anything and I didn't even know what occupation you held.
That Florida and other .govs have been on the rampage against 2nd amendment remnants is obvious.
You don't think he's aware of that? This is not a FUDD forum, not by a long shot. They don't last long here. Thread lock will happen shortly if you don't stay on topic with that nonsense.
May I get a link to the one you are talking about so I have the whole picture?
It was video on a hotel news channel, not fox or cnn. If I see it pop up on UT or wherever I will post it.
CESwartz07
12-07-19, 15:54
Honestly this is a very authentic post. Like I said in another thread. Everybody thinks police should be 25 year old former Airborne Rangers with Masters in Psychology willing to work for very modest money. If you make any coin it’s because you part timed yourself to death or you skipped the whole family bit and wore your same clothes from high school for longer than you probably should (“Hey bro, where’d you get those 90s clothes?” Um...the 90s...)
Doesn’t work that way.
We both know that.
Shootouts don’t happen everyday.
I feel like the public (and most egregiously the Internet) expects Delta Force results for Arby’s pay.
I’ve been laid up almost half a year of my life convalescing before due to other people’s bullshit.
Nobody cared but close friends and family.
So yeah...
Both of these posts are spot on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don't think he's aware of that? This is not a FUDD forum, not by a long shot. They don't last long here. Thread lock will happen shortly if you don't stay on topic with that nonsense.
I didn't call him a Fudd or any other label. Just my opinion that throwing money at incidents isn't apt to improve matters.
I didn't call him a Fudd or any other label. Just my opinion that throwing money at incidents isn't apt to improve matters.
I'm not tracking what you mean by "throwing money at incidents" as frankly I think they should throw far more in the form of training ongoing, etc vs say toys they did a basic qual on and done.
Here is my primary question about all of this:
Did LE know there was a hostage in the UPS vehicle, or did they only know it was a stolen vehicle with criminals inside?
I'm not tracking what you mean by "throwing money at incidents" as frankly I think they should throw far more in the form of training ongoing, etc vs say toys they did a basic qual on and done.
You actually did get it. Toys, jump training for airborne deployment in to hurricanes, and similar is exactly what I am referring to when I say throwing money at it.
It's just the internet, guys. Dial it down a notch. Discuss the issues, not each other.
can you post a link to that vid?
https://youtu.be/8vo-T2_R7oA
You know...seeing THAT angle without the censorship ‘for my own good’....it looks like they were using the UPS guy as a human shield.
I think at that point the suspects figured if they were gonna die then the hostage was gonna die too.
I don’t like the outcome but I can see a little better where maybe it was a forced hand. Again, I wasn’t there.
Perps were gonna ride or die
Here is my primary question about all of this:
Did LE know there was a hostage in the UPS vehicle, or did they only know it was a stolen vehicle with criminals inside?
In one of the many videos I saw of this incident one of the traffic choppers was mentioning a UPS driver
You know...seeing THAT angle without the censorship ‘for my own good’....it looks like they were using the UPS guy as a human shield.
I think at that point the suspects figured if they were gonna die then the hostage was gonna die too.
I don’t like the outcome but I can see a little better where maybe it was a forced hand. Again, I wasn’t there.
Perps were gonna ride or die
It's astounding "only" the UPS driver and one other person died, and I have not heard if the other person was due to LE or the perps. It was his first day on the job as a lone driver too. That truly sucks.
It's astounding "only" the UPS driver and one other person died, and I have not heard if the other person was due to LE or the perps. It was his first day on the job as a lone driver too. That truly sucks.
I don’t want to be definitive but it looked like the perps shot first and I have a hunch that they likely caused the other fatality (popo hiding behind occupied vehicles didn’t help....)
So this thing started during rush hour in Coral Gables and continued unimpeded for 20 miles, with LE blocking off side traffic. The UPS truck traveled around 20 miles with no interference until it arrived in Miramar and traffic congestion. It seems to me LE wanted this vehicle to continue and they would follow until it entered a less congested area or ran out of fuel.
I have heard that the local small police department of Pembroke Pines got involved in Miramar and attempted to shut down traffic in a major 4 way intersection in front of the UPS vehicle with the intention to allow the vehicle to continue, but traffic control got screwed up at that intersection and all traffic was stopped. That shut down of movement led to the shootout at that less than ideal location.
I got this info from a buddy of mine who works in government in the Miami area.
Its easy to armchair quarterback when we are just watching a video from up above with the advantage of hindsight... why didn't they just do ___________ fill in the blank. But the bottom line is that conflict is unpredictable.
TheChunkNorris
12-07-19, 19:44
What does Mrgunsngear have to do with any of this?
Not having all the facts about a current event and talking for the sake of talking.
So this thing started during rush hour in Coral Gables and continued unimpeded for 20 miles, with LE blocking off side traffic. The UPS truck traveled around 20 miles with no interference until it arrived in Miramar and traffic congestion. It seems to me LE wanted this vehicle to continue and they would follow until it entered a less congested area or ran out of fuel.
I have heard that the local small police department of Pembroke Pines got involved in Miramar and attempted to shut down traffic in a major 4 way intersection in front of the UPS vehicle with the intention to allow the vehicle to continue, but traffic control got screwed up at that intersection and all traffic was stopped. That shut down of movement led to the shootout at that less than ideal location.
I got this info from a buddy of mine who works in government in the Miami area.
I pointed that out earlier. It’s unfreaking believable that they did as much as they did to control traffic. I live in Miami and about 15mins south of the Gables. Think there’s good points in this thread from some people with the exception of the Boogalo bois. I saw one vid from about the 5 o clock vantage from the UPS truck, it appears as if one of the LEOs jumped with his weapon pointed at the truck. He then quickly breaks for cover, so either he was shot at or he was about to get shot at. With about 6000hrs of UAS imagery time, I can only guess that based on their reactions... they all started shooting once they were shot at.
Just think it’s difficult to gauge what would’ve been the best outcome in that horrid situation. Coral Gables is a small municipal dept, pretty sure Miami Dade(largest dept) was present and can only assume South Miami (very small muni), City of Miami(second largest), and whatever Broward assets were available. I know it sounds dumb but there are numerous small depts that joined a larger force. Various training requirements, different procedures for pursuit, and different mindsets for the area the officers work in. Not that it matters but I look at the uniforms, Miami Dade is the only Sheriff’s Dep in FL that has Khaki uni’s(other than Troopers) and Broward county boys wear all green. There was a lot of plain clothed people so who knows but this was a disaster as soon as they left the Gables.
All in all, this has great training value for the rest of the country. There will be new TTPs implemented because of this with the hopes it’ll have a better outcome in the future. Really think some of those officers feel terrible about what happened, there is indeed a psychological strain on them as they went back home to their families... especially during the holidays. Life isn’t fair and this is proof of that.
So this thing started during rush hour in Coral Gables and continued unimpeded for 20 miles, with LE blocking off side traffic. The UPS truck traveled around 20 miles with no interference until it arrived in Miramar and traffic congestion. It seems to me LE wanted this vehicle to continue and they would follow until it entered a less congested area or ran out of fuel.
I have heard that the local small police department of Pembroke Pines got involved in Miramar and attempted to shut down traffic in a major 4 way intersection in front of the UPS vehicle with the intention to allow the vehicle to continue, but traffic control got screwed up at that intersection and all traffic was stopped. That shut down of movement led to the shootout at that less than ideal location.
I got this info from a buddy of mine who works in government in the Miami area.
Now that's interesting and makes a lot of sense.
TheChunkNorris
12-08-19, 03:10
Updates:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/cops-south-florida-shootout-killed-ups-driver-administrative-leave-reports
The aftermath is going to be interesting
TheChunkNorris
12-08-19, 07:56
The aftermath is going to be interesting
Yep it’s going to be extensive.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2019/12/06/one-of-the-robbery-suspects-killed-in-the-police-shootout-was-lamar-alexander-family-says/
Interesting. This was not their first rodeo.
Handguns vs rifles.
It doesn’t change anything but I have a hunch the perps killed the bystander. I may be wrong. But a hunch.
Still a learning moment for sure
Police tactics questioned after UPS truck police chase ends in deadly shootout
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ups-truck-police-chase-ends-in-deadly-shootout-police-tactics-questioned-2019-12-06/
But Manny Orosa, who was Miami-Dade's police chief from 2011 to 2015, questions the tactic given the number of civilians and the hostage.
"If you're shooting into a truck and you don't have a clear vision of who you're shooting at, you don't just shoot at the truck," Orosa said.
It's not clear yet who fired the shots that killed the UPS driver and the innocent bystander. A complete investigation could take months, even years. The Miami-Dade officers who opened fire have been placed on administrative leave, which is standard during these types of investigations.
On a lot of other forums, this incident is being turned into a "Jack-Booted Thug" slam fest. I think the whole incident got out of control, especially when the shooting started, but I am not a Law Enforcement basher. I have too many friends in that profession and it's a tough way to make a living sometimes.
However, there is an element in this Country called the Alt-Right, and they are fringe operators who are anarchists and hate any kind of government or law enforcement. They are the extreme fringe Right equivalent to ANTIFA on the extreme far Left. The Alt-Right likes to cloak themselves in the word Patriot, but are nothing but a bunch of social outcasts and dead-enders who just don't fit in normal society.
On a lot of other forums, this incident is being turned into a "Jack-Booted Thug" slam fest. I think the whole incident got out of control, especially when the shooting started, but I am not a Law Enforcement basher. I have too many friends in that profession and it's a tough way to make a living sometimes.
However, there is an element in this Country called the Alt-Right, and they are fringe operators who are anarchists and hate any kind of government or law enforcement. They are the extreme fringe Right equivalent to ANTIFA on the extreme far Left. The Alt-Right likes to cloak themselves in the word Patriot, but are nothing but a bunch of social outcasts and dead-enders who just don't fit in normal society.
The alt right is united by extreme nationalism, anti egalitarianism, and just basic racism, not anarchism. And I'm not sure why you're bringing them up in this thread.
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The alt right is united by extreme nationalism, anti egalitarianism, and just basic racism, not anarchism. And I'm not sure why you're bringing them up in this thread.
If you follow the Alt-Right group and try to keep up what they're up to, this Florida incident is just causing them to come unhinged, with all kinds of anti-LE rants and a push for the Boogaloo. They push their own version of anarchy in a destruction of organized government and rebuilding the system into something they like, very much like the Communist Progressive Left and ANTIFA allies.
Believe me, I have interacted personally with such people in person and they profess Alt-Right philosophy, even though they get irritated when given that label.
What would be the prudent thing to do if this was your commute home? Pat Mac would say don’t get boxed in but...
Do folks need to ride around in SAPIs and a MICH to work?
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-08-19, 12:44
What would be the prudent thing to do if this was your commute home? Pat Mac would say don’t get boxed in but...
Do folks need to ride around in SAPIs and a MICH to work?
IIRC there is a white truck/van that beats feet out of the kill zone. That driver seems like the only one with any situational awareness.
It seems that the left hand ‘barrier’ was just a curb, not a Jersey barrier?
What would be the prudent thing to do if this was your commute home? Pat Mac would say don’t get boxed in but...
Do folks need to ride around in SAPIs and a MICH to work?
The average person will just continue living their normal lives and won't change anything. They shouldn't have to, but it's part of living and the risks in an urban environment. One thing for sure if there's a gunfight going on around you, and your car is boxed in, just don't sit in car. Try to figure out where the action is and crawl out and move away. If you've got small children, use your body to shield them while crawling away.
There's no perfect answer, and I am certain there were some people in the cars around this gunfight who just sat there, unable to fathom what was happening. That's one of the normal human responses.
If you follow the Alt-Right group and try to keep up what they're up to, this Florida incident is just causing them to come unhinged, with all kinds of anti-LE rants and a push for the Boogaloo. They push their own version of anarchy in a destruction of organized government and rebuilding the system into something they like, very much like the Communist Progressive Left and ANTIFA allies.
Believe me, I have interacted personally with such people in person and they profess Alt-Right philosophy, even though they get irritated when given that label.
I’m with opmike
Where are you seeing that? Another forum perhaps?
The 1986 Miami FBI shootout has been a case study for 30+ years, and rightly so. This melee on a busy interstate, I feel, will be treated much differently. It just looked like a wild free for all and we are fortunate there weren’t a lot more casualties.
I’m with opmike
Where are you seeing that? Another forum perhaps?
On several other forums, not here. This incident is really stoking some anti-LE flames, without even any consideration that the cause were two ex-cons willing to shoot any and all to escape.
What would be the prudent thing to do if this was your commute home? Pat Mac would say don’t get boxed in but...
Do folks need to ride around in SAPIs and a MICH to work?Prudent thing: move out of broward/dade. And I say this as some who grew up there and still have friends/family there.
This kind of thing is not the biggest risk to living in the area. IE: there are Walmarts and gas stations on US-1 along decent residential areas that are very heavily targeted and high-risk.
South Miami & Coral Gables used to be a great place to live. Past tense.
If you follow the Alt-Right group and try to keep up what they're up to, this Florida incident is just causing them to come unhinged, with all kinds of anti-LE rants and a push for the Boogaloo. They push their own version of anarchy in a destruction of organized government and rebuilding the system into something they like, very much like the Communist Progressive Left and ANTIFA allies.
Believe me, I have interacted personally with such people in person and they profess Alt-Right philosophy, even though they get irritated when given that label.
Whether self named (to appear as a positive to some?) as anarchists or by 3rd parties as derogatory name calling, the label anarchist being applied to a group wanting large and over reaching government, whether left or right, is on par with calling no infringement, individual liberty, wipe all anti-gun laws off the books 2nd Amendment supporters as Nazis.
2 forms of anarchy I can think include one with no government...just the law of the jungle where the physically powerful subjugating the meek(although not surprisingly the influentially mighty subjugating the meek doesn't get the anarchy label). While that is the desired mental image that gets triggered, it also doesn't seem to be of utmost concern (so long as contained away from elites) as can be demonstrated the laissez faire handling of certain areas of the country with parts of Chicago being an excellent example.
The other version of anarchy I have heard of is best described as no kings. Government and laws, but no exemptions from laws for select groups(executives, legislators, judges, prosecutors, le, mil) as we have now. Very close in concept to classical, old school, little "l" libertarians that liberals and conservatives alike try to sound like when wanting something, but both loathe the idea of any of the concepts coming to fruition.
john armond
12-08-19, 13:23
One of the videos I saw, taken from a car I believe was next to the older guy that was killed, showed a crowd of people that looked like they were leaving work all walking right toward the incident, just like they would normally do, through the crosswalk. They appeared to be totally oblivious to the huge amount of police and the fact that anything was going on even though the squad cars were clearly visible and sirens were blaring. It wasn't until shots started popping off that they, as a whole, even seemed to notice something was wrong.
I believe the black car in the video was the car the second bystander was killed in. If that's the case, it was heading away from the shooting and turning at the intersection. The camera operator ran toward the shooting to get the police after seeing the guy in the black car get hit. This video was shot by someone speaking a mixture of Spanish and English, and was shown in a Spanish language news show. The positioning of the black car and the police makes me thing the second guy shot, if this was him, was more than likely shot by the suspects or less likely by a through-and-through of the truck from police. This is just speculation from a single video though, so take it with a grain of salt.
On several other forums, not here. This incident is really stoking some anti-LE flames, without even any consideration that the cause were two ex-cons willing to shoot any and all to escape.
Well sure, this whole catastrophe was initiated by 2 dangerous crooks. But what we've seen with our own eyes is, well shocking to say the least and at a minimum deserves some very critical eyes towards how it all ended.
The taxpayers of Broward Co. will certainly be punished over this, I can only imagine what the final bill will look like.
But to respond to your anti-LE flames. I think I have an idea what's happening here so bear with me a bit.
First there is a level "trouble" in LE land today that might be just as much political as it is criminal, but I suspect it's more political. Recent high profile events such as the Houston drug raid, the Dallas cop who killed her neighbor and the Ft Worth cop who killed a home owner under very questionable circumstances, all the way to the Florida cop who was planting dope on well over 100 innocent travelers and the north Georgia cop who was arresting perfectly sober drivers for DUI... the list could go on and on.
The public sees all this and begins to form an aggressive opinion of LE as a whole because they do represent the enforcement arm of the .gov which most people already despise, just look at the approval ratings of various .gov bodies. So when something like this happens which looks very bad on the initial approach people immediately remember all the really bad stuff the cops have truly done in the past and that anger just spills over.
The cops are just as guilty at jumping to conclusions when the tables are turned. One recent example of this was how quickly that Houston PD union cop was to lash out and threaten people who were critical of the cops in the immediate aftermath of the botched Houston due raid, turns out the gut instinct of the public was right and the cops were all wrong.
The cops are quick to try and isolate an actual event of real police misconduct or crimes and portray it as if it happened in a vacuum absent from every other act of misconduct documented in the media. The public is very much the same. I've always thought of it as tribal on an instinctive level. Don't make it right but it also don't make it wrong.
The police in this country are suffering from a lot of issues that are starting to hurt them. Its affecting recruitment and retention of the very people you and I want to be cops.
Yes some among us really think they want the boogaloo but that's just stupid. Who in their right mind wants a Libya or a Syria on our own soil. People with low IQ's and no sense of reality, thats who.
What we know right now is that this incident will almost certainly effect the way things are handled going forward, right now I guarantee that somewhere in agencies all over this country trainers are taking notes and asking questions to their staff about how this can be handled differently, more effectively and with less threat to the public.
One such change I could see happening might be how the actual chase itself gets handled. Instead of letting it run its course, now the cops might be forced to pick the spot where it ends. Which means the effectiveness we saw of the area cops to seal off the interstate to traffic trying to get on which cleared out many miles during the chase where few to no innocents were around. Maybe thats where the cops will be the ones to initiate the violence. force the vehicle to stop and quickly and swiftly end it. This will mean the cops will be exposed to very high levels of danger but thats the risk that comes with the job they all volunteered for. If thats unacceptable then perhaps the individual cops needs to rethink their career choice.
I think had such an event occurred here and the only innocent lost was the UPS driver the conversation would be much different. It would be a huge tragedy still, but one normal everyday people like you and I could live with.
Hopefully the police learn from this and change for the better. We all deserve a professional police force, what happened in Miramar was anything but.
On a lot of other forums, this incident is being turned into a "Jack-Booted Thug" slam fest. I think the whole incident got out of control, especially when the shooting started, but I am not a Law Enforcement basher. I have too many friends in that profession and it's a tough way to make a living sometimes.
However, there is an element in this Country called the Alt-Right, and they are fringe operators who are anarchists and hate any kind of government or law enforcement. They are the extreme fringe Right equivalent to ANTIFA on the extreme far Left. The Alt-Right likes to cloak themselves in the word Patriot, but are nothing but a bunch of social outcasts and dead-enders who just don't fit in normal society.
I deal with them on some Libertarian pages. They're not Libertarians but sovereign citizen anarchist D bags who think they align with Libertarians. I can say, libertarians can be very anti LE, and that's one area I don't jibe with at all. There were a few posters here making comments heading in that direction and were shut down.
I have no time for the extreme fringes of the left or right myself.
On a lot of other forums, this incident is being turned into a "Jack-Booted Thug" slam fest. I think the whole incident got out of control, especially when the shooting started, but I am not a Law Enforcement basher. I have too many friends in that profession and it's a tough way to make a living sometimes.
However, there is an element in this Country called the Alt-Right, and they are fringe operators who are anarchists and hate any kind of government or law enforcement. They are the extreme fringe Right equivalent to ANTIFA on the extreme far Left. The Alt-Right likes to cloak themselves in the word Patriot, but are nothing but a bunch of social outcasts and dead-enders who just don't fit in normal society.
Just to be clear the the “alt-right” moniker got hijacked by the media circa the 2012 election run up and bastardized into the pejorative descriptor that it is today. It was very much born out of the Tea Party movement and at the very most represented a more modern twist on traditional conservative, and dare I say “boomer” values. As such it was demonized by both sides of the isle despite resonating with significant swaths of the electorate.
Sadly it succumbed to revisionism and bully pulpit sponsored rebranding and thanks to milquetoast republican losers it was successfully pushed aside by the political powers to be.
Now Alt-Right = Nazis and that was never the case.
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I don’t want this to drift too far but
1. The term Alt-Right up until 2017 had no racist nor fringe connotation. It was literally “alternative Right” and consisted of people who were financially conservative but still sorta liberal or centrist socially. They would have been called “South Park Republicans” c. 2003. That term scared people because we can’t have blacks, women, and other types of people who are willing to vote Right in order to avoid Hillary so it had to be made into a “racist group” to shame people away. The people you refer to like the Sovereign or Patriots movement have always been there and always been dangerous.
2. The LE bashing on other forums like AR15.com is scary because it usually boils down to “I hate cops because I couldn’t join the academy and I got a ticket”. Boogaloo is a meme like Kekistan and Pepe. Nobody seriously expects there to be one. But the usual Printer repairmen, plumbers, and DUI lawyers there take it too far and weren’t helped when Mr. Gunsngear told fatasses in tac gear to swarm police and shoot “traitors” because of a drunk guy in an attic having a Domestic incident and showing ass on instagram instead of calling his lawyer.
3. I’ve had my own spicy hot takes of the incident; I would have to say the Broward School shooting still left a bad taste in my mouth. Even I, myself, sometimes get in a snit. Having seen more uncensored video and with more info coming out about the robbers; I am leaning towards that it was just a bad Fing day. I doubt anybody got up that morning anticipating a shootout like that. I can criticize but at days end I wasn’t there. It did look like if they could have kept the vehicle moving that maybe it could have been guided somewhere less populated. Looking back it’s actually kriegsglückt that more folks weren’t wiped out in traffic.
Ugly situation all around. Hopefully some lessons will be learned.
Prudent thing: move out of broward/dade. And I say this as some who grew up there and still have friends/family there.
This kind of thing is not the biggest risk to living in the area. IE: there are Walmarts and gas stations on US-1 along decent residential areas that are very heavily targeted and high-risk.
South Miami & Coral Gables used to be a great place to live. Past tense.
The event that occurred in Miramar was an extreme rarity. For me, south beach, & south Florida is a great place to live; great restaurants, beaches, fun atmosphere, multiple events like Art Basel etc. Like every other municipality in the nation, there are areas that one avoids, but for the most part its quite safe and fun.
Just to be clear the the “alt-right” moniker got hijacked by the media circa the 2012 election run up and bastardized into the pejorative descriptor that it is today. It was very much born out of the Tea Party movement and at the very most represented a more modern twist on traditional conservative, and dare I say “boomer” values. As such it was demonized by both sides of the isle despite resonating with significant swaths of the electorate.
Sadly it succumbed to revisionism and bully pulpit sponsored rebranding and thanks to milquetoast republican losers it was successfully pushed aside by the political powers to be.
Now Alt-Right = Nazis and that was never the case.
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So to be clear, the kind of gun-owning Right Wing group I am describing features the following traits:
A hatred for Law Enforcement, lumping the entire group into Jack-Booted Thugs, and use of "Boot Licker" for anyone supporting law enforcement
A hatred for any US Government Agency - Bureau of Land Management, Interior, CIA, FBI, NSA, and the military
Generally Racist - uses lots of code words for Blacks, Jews, etc.
A Hatred for the State of Israel
Constant talk of Globalists/Statists and the Military Industrial Complex
Anti-Interventionist for any type of foreign involvement - lots of Baby Killer talk about US Military members
Generally loves anything Russia does - total Putin lovers
Dislike of the financial system of banks, credit unions, etc.
Constant talk of kicking off Civil War 2
Loosely support of groups like III%, Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, etc.
Constant use of the word "Patriot" to identify themselves
Generally under educated. Rare to find any with any prior military service
Lots of gun ownership of all kinds of semi-auto weaponry (not a bad trait)
Quoting of Richard Spencer by the more literate members of this group
This is just a partial list, but this give you an idea of the rants these types engage in. You tell me what they are? They seem to be on the far right fringe outside the norms of society.
Casualties occur in police work and combat. Deadly conflict is deadly and unpredictable. You cannot elimate risk but thats exactly what society demands these days in police confrontations as well as military combat engagements. You do everything you can to mitigate the risks but you cannot eliminate it from the equation. Mistakes made are learning and teaching points in TTP's. Unfortunately pinning the blame and ending careers is more important in high profile incidents.
Averageman
12-08-19, 19:43
I don’t want this to drift too far but
1. The term Alt-Right up until 2017 had no racist nor fringe connotation. It was literally “alternative Right” and consisted of people who were financially conservative but still sorta liberal or centrist socially. They would have been called “South Park Republicans” c. 2003. That term scared people because we can’t have blacks, women, and other types of people who are willing to vote Right in order to avoid Hillary so it had to be made into a “racist group” to shame people away. The people you refer to like the Sovereign or Patriots movement have always been there and always been dangerous.
However, there is an element in this Country called the Alt-Right, and they are fringe operators who are anarchists and hate any kind of government or law enforcement. They are the extreme fringe Right equivalent to ANTIFA on the extreme far Left. The Alt-Right likes to cloak themselves in the word Patriot, but are nothing but a bunch of social outcasts and dead-enders who just don't fit in normal society.
There was a time when the term "Alt Right" was an actual movement with a good purpose. It scared the shit out of the Left so immediately the media stepped in and branded them, even the black and brown ones "Nazi".
Immediately that had to be stamped out and so it was.
They are still out there though, not as some sort of radical group who are going to overturn a government, but as a group of young men who had little or nothing to look forward to in an Obama economy, but now they do.
They vote republican, they are old school conservative and they're all over.
BTW I support Law Enforcement, I do so by thanking them when they're in my neighborhood, other than that, I take care of my business and stay out of their way every chance I can.
So to be clear, the kind of gun-owning Right Wing group I am describing features the following traits:
A hatred for Law Enforcement, lumping the entire group into Jack-Booted Thugs, and use of "Boot Licker" for anyone supporting law enforcement
A hatred for any US Government Agency - Bureau of Land Management, Interior, CIA, FBI, NSA, and the military
Generally Racist - uses lots of code words for Blacks, Jews, etc.
A Hatred for the State of Israel
Constant talk of Globalists/Statists and the Military Industrial Complex
Anti-Interventionist for any type of foreign involvement - lots of Baby Killer talk about US Military members
Generally loves anything Russia does - total Putin lovers
Dislike of the financial system of banks, credit unions, etc.
Constant talk of kicking off Civil War 2
Loosely support of groups like III%, Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, etc.
Constant use of the word "Patriot" to identify themselves
Generally under educated. Rare to find any with any prior military service
Lots of gun ownership of all kinds of semi-auto weaponry (not a bad trait)
Quoting of Richard Spencer by the more literate members of this group
This is just a partial list, but this give you an idea of the rants these types engage in. You tell me what they are? They seem to be on the far right fringe outside the norms of society.
The majority of those positions were held by people considered to be US founders and can be found in The Declaration of Independence, Constitution/BoR, debates surrounding the Constitution, and their individual writings during their lives.
"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world" - George Washington
"He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance." - Declaration of Independence
"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations-entangling alliances with none." - Thomas Jefferson
"Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace." - James Madison
Just a few of their rants, but the rest stuck to that general theme.
So to be clear, the kind of gun-owning Right Wing group I am describing features the following traits:
A hatred for Law Enforcement, lumping the entire group into Jack-Booted Thugs, and use of "Boot Licker" for anyone supporting law enforcement
A hatred for any US Government Agency - Bureau of Land Management, Interior, CIA, FBI, NSA, and the military
Generally Racist - uses lots of code words for Blacks, Jews, etc.
A Hatred for the State of Israel
Constant talk of Globalists/Statists and the Military Industrial Complex
Anti-Interventionist for any type of foreign involvement - lots of Baby Killer talk about US Military members
Generally loves anything Russia does - total Putin lovers
Dislike of the financial system of banks, credit unions, etc.
Constant talk of kicking off Civil War 2
Loosely support of groups like III%, Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, etc.
Constant use of the word "Patriot" to identify themselves
Generally under educated. Rare to find any with any prior military service
Lots of gun ownership of all kinds of semi-auto weaponry (not a bad trait)
Quoting of Richard Spencer by the more literate members of this group
This is just a partial list, but this give you an idea of the rants these types engage in. You tell me what they are? They seem to be on the far right fringe outside the norms of society.
You’re painting with a broad brush, gaslighting, using smear tactics, branding/labeling, stereotypes - all of the very things of which you accuse them.
I don’t see how you’re any different from them, honestly.
Extremists of every stripe, scare me.
You’re painting with a broad brush, gaslighting, using smear tactics, branding/labeling, stereotypes - all of the very things of which you accuse them.
I don’t see how you’re any different from them, honestly.
Extremists of every stripe, scare me.
These are examples of what one particular group of Americans are exhibiting - their statements, their behaviors, their points of view. I am asking questions trying to figure out how they fit into the political spectrum. We have always known the Left was comprised of Moderates, Liberals and now the Progressive Extreme Left. Then it goes to the edge with the ANTIFA and Anarchist types.
What I am trying to understand is how this type of Right wing group or movement fits into the picture. I consider myself a hardcore Conservative, fiscally, socially and the same when it comes to gun rights. What I am now encountering is a Right wing that is even more radical than I am, but that group exhibits traits I don't identify with like Law Enforcement Hate and Racism.
I'm not painting with any kind of brush - I'm seeking clarification and knowledge. Maybe you can provide me with some edification? I thought I was politically savy and informed, but now there is something further to the right of me (and I am considered a hard core right winger).
The whole thing was a dumpster fire from the word go. I’ve read several places where everyone is blaming the law enforcement action taken. Let’s back it up. The two pos’s who started it are to blame. End of story. Two innocent lost their lives and that is the travesty in this whole debacle. Let be happy there weren’t any more innocent lives lost. Let’s be happy there weren’t any officer killed. It will be analyzed over and over again. Let the investigation happen.
This past weekend has been a shit show for law enforcement murders.
One last thing, Peterson was a dumb ass at the high school and I do not support what he did.
So to be clear, the kind of gun-owning Right Wing group I am describing features the following traits:
A hatred for Law Enforcement, lumping the entire group into Jack-Booted Thugs, and use of "Boot Licker" for anyone supporting law enforcement
A hatred for any US Government Agency - Bureau of Land Management, Interior, CIA, FBI, NSA, and the military
Generally Racist - uses lots of code words for Blacks, Jews, etc.
A Hatred for the State of Israel
Constant talk of Globalists/Statists and the Military Industrial Complex
Anti-Interventionist for any type of foreign involvement - lots of Baby Killer talk about US Military members
Generally loves anything Russia does - total Putin lovers
Dislike of the financial system of banks, credit unions, etc.
Constant talk of kicking off Civil War 2
Loosely support of groups like III%, Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, etc.
Constant use of the word "Patriot" to identify themselves
Generally under educated. Rare to find any with any prior military service
Lots of gun ownership of all kinds of semi-auto weaponry (not a bad trait)
Quoting of Richard Spencer by the more literate members of this group
This is just a partial list, but this give you an idea of the rants these types engage in. You tell me what they are? They seem to be on the far right fringe outside the norms of society.
As stated in a subsequent post yes you’re painting with a broad and very jaded brush, to the extent that, as I asserted earlier, the movement originally was very different than what it was scapegoated into by the media and political factions on both sides of the pie.
That’s my point.
Extremist positions always existed. The MSM blowhards just managed to force Co-identification between The Tea Party crowd in with less palatable ideologues to poison the movement. Add in uninformed troglodyte republicans and boomers who loved Romney, McCain, and the like and it was an easy sell.
The movement was a threat to the establishment and status quo, and they’ve been working to do the same thing to Trump, because he was a threat to the system.
Not a fan of the Mil complex (which lets be frank is a very real thing) and never ending wars? Well, now you’re anti-American, hate veterans, and an Anti-Semite (Israel is not our friend by the way).
Not a fan of unfettered immigration? Well now your a racist and a Nazi who wants to gas aliens at the border.
And you’re not seeing this?
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As stated in a subsequent post yes you’re painting with a broad and very jaded brush, to the extent that, as I asserted earlier, the movement originally was very different than what it was scapegoated into by the media and political factions on both sides of the pie.
That’s my point.
Extremist positions always existed. The MSM blowhards just managed to force Co-identification between The Tea Party crowd in with less palatable ideologues to poison the movement. Add in uninformed troglodyte republicans and boomers who loved Romney, McCain, and the like and it was an easy sell.
The movement was a threat to the establishment and status quo, and they’ve been working to do the same thing to Trump, because he was a threat to the system.
Not a fan of the Mil complex (which lets be frank is a very real thing) and never ending wars? Well, now you’re anti-American, hate veterans, and an Anti-Semite (Israel is not our friend by the way).
Not a fan of unfettered immigration? Well now your a racist and a Nazi who wants to gas aliens at the border.
And you’re not seeing this?
What's interesting is I have attended Tea Party rallies - I see in them a grass roots movement of ordinary Americans from all walks of life, including different ethnic groups. I am also against unfettered immigration, but it's not based on racial concerns. I see incidences of law enforcement abuses and bad behavior, but I don't bash the entire profession. This makes me a "Boot Licker" in the vernacular of the people I am describing.
Now when it comes to the Military Industrial Complex - a necessary evil in my mind. In the build up to WW2, Japan and Germany both had a massive MIC in the making. The US wasn't up to the task prior to Pearl Harbor and we had to get with the program fast to compete. After WW2 the US vowed to never be outspent or outdone by our geopolitical enemies. Despite the abuses of greed and political lobbying for constant war, the MIC still keeps us competitive in the world militarily. But that is for a different venue, I guess.
I have numerous friends in Israel, mainly former IDF members I worked with there on two different times, and when they came to the US to train. As an American soldier, I was treated better in Israel than in certain places in Europe. Many Israelis have family here or were born in the US. Other than experiencing rocket attacks from the Golan Heights towards my general location, I felt quite at home and really like the people. Everyone I encountered were extremely pro-American.
Let me ask - are your prior military? Not that it really matters but it helps me understand things from your perspective.
Well sure, this whole catastrophe was initiated by 2 dangerous crooks. But what we've seen with our own eyes is, well shocking to say the least and at a minimum deserves some very critical eyes towards how it all ended.
But to respond to your anti-LE flames. I think I have an idea what's happening here so bear with me a bit.
First there is a level "trouble" in LE land today that might be just as much political as it is criminal, but I suspect it's more political. Recent high profile events such as the Houston drug raid, the Dallas cop who killed her neighbor and the Ft Worth cop who killed a home owner under very questionable circumstances, all the way to the Florida cop who was planting dope on well over 100 innocent travelers and the north Georgia cop who was arresting perfectly sober drivers for DUI... the list could go on and on.
The public sees all this and begins to form an aggressive opinion of LE as a whole because they do represent the enforcement arm of the .gov which most people already despise, just look at the approval ratings of various .gov bodies. So when something like this happens which looks very bad on the initial approach people immediately remember all the really bad stuff the cops have truly done in the past and that anger just spills over.......
Hopefully the police learn from this and change for the better. We all deserve a professional police force, what happened in Miramar was anything but.
You hit several things in your very thoughtful post.
I think the first thing we have to understand is that the relentless 24-hour news cycle makes incidents like this the topic of conversation much longer than it would have been 30 years ago. As an adjunct to that thought process, when you posted: I think had such an event occurred here and the only innocent lost was the UPS driver the conversation would be much different. It would be a huge tragedy still, but one normal everyday people like you and I could live with, my immediate thought was, no, not given the same media coverage. Mayhaps it wouldn't be so dramatic if there was no helicopter coverage. However, cellphones are endemic among the general population, so it stands to reason cellphone video would still be available to inflame the masses.
Now, who is to say if such widespread coverage of events is bad. I don't know. We used to say that police training manuals were written in the blood of officers who were killed in the line of duty, and widespread publicity can give rise to rapid changes in training and tactics that might otherwise take much longer to occur.
On the other hand, sometimes widespread coverage of events from throughout the United States gives folks the idea that such incidents are commonplace, when, in fact, just the opposite is true. Add to that the fact that the public is know faced with dueling expert witnesses, chosen for the slant in which they are willing to portray the event, and you have a large percentage of the public taking things completely out of context.
This is an example: after the Rodney King beating, the Los Angeles Police Department was in crisis. It was accused of racial insensitivity and ill discipline and violence, and the assumption was that those problems had spread broadly throughout the rank and file.
In the language of statisticians, it was thought that L.A.P.D.’s troubles had a “normal” distribution—that if you graphed them the result would look like a bell curve, with a small number of officers at one end of the curve, a small number at the other end, and the bulk of the problem situated in the middle. The bell-curve assumption has become so much a part of our mental architecture that we tend to use it to organize experience automatically.
But when the L.A.P.D. was investigated by a special commission headed by Warren Christopher, a very different picture emerged.
Between 1986 and 1990, allegations of excessive force or improper tactics were made against eighteen hundred of the eighty-five hundred officers in the L.A.P.D. The broad middle had scarcely been accused of anything.
Furthermore, more than fourteen hundred officers had only one or two allegations made against them—and bear in mind that these were not proven charges, that they happened in a four-year period, and that allegations of excessive force are an inevitable feature of urban police work. (The N.Y.P.D. receives about three thousand such complaints a year.)
A hundred and eighty-three officers, however, had four or more complaints against them, forty-four officers had six or more complaints, sixteen had eight or more, and one had sixteen complaints.
If you were to graph the troubles of the L.A.P.D., it wouldn’t look like a bell curve. It would look more like a hockey stick. It would follow what statisticians call a “power law” distribution—where all the activity is not in the middle but at one extreme.
The Christopher Commission’s report repeatedly comes back to what it describes as the extreme concentration of problematic officers. One officer had been the subject of thirteen allegations of
excessive use of force, five other complaints, twenty-eight “use of force reports” (that is, documented, internal accounts of inappropriate behavior), and one shooting.
Another had six excessive-force complaints, nineteen other complaints, ten use-of-force reports, and three shootings. A third had twenty-seven use-of-force reports, and a fourth had thirty-five.
Another had a file full of complaints for doing things like “striking an arrestee on the back of the neck with the butt of a shotgun for no apparent reason while the arrestee was kneeling and handcuffed,” beating up a thirteen-year-old juvenile, and throwing an arrestee from his chair and kicking him in the back and side of the head while he was handcuffed and lying on his stomach.
The report gives the strong impression that if you fired those forty-four cops the L.A.P.D. would suddenly become a pretty well-functioning police department.
from Million Dollar Murray, an essay by Malcolm Gladwell
The point being, that while there were problems, the public perception that LAPD was a force full of badge heavy racists intent on using excessive force, was wrong. In reality, it was a very small percentage of officers who were the problem. Obviously, this slant wasn't widely reported, as it didn't have a powerful visceral impact.
I always thought bell curves indicated below average at one end, above at the other end, and the average in the middle, not the bulk being bad in the middle.
It would indeed seem like getting rid of the 44 police in question in the article would improve things greatly. Based on the article, it seems those 44 were comitting offenses that were ripe territory for getting a conviction over, so why weren't they?
Let's keep the "alt right" discussion out of this, stay on the topic please.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-09-19, 06:40
Casualties occur in police work and combat. Deadly conflict is deadly and unpredictable. You cannot elimate risk but thats exactly what society demands these days in police confrontations as well as military combat engagements. You do everything you can to mitigate the risks but you cannot eliminate it from the equation. Mistakes made are learning and teaching points in TTP's. Unfortunately pinning the blame and ending careers is more important in high profile incidents.
Quoted for those who may have missed this well thought out post.
As a police firearms and tactics instructor, reviewing the AAR and footage from this and implementing it into a training scenario will be my utmost priority. But I wonder, and would like honest answers:
What do we reasonably expect the outcome of an intense urban firefight to be where bullets continue to travel through intended targets?
What do we reasonably expect officers to do when they come under intense fire in an urban environment that is congested? Stop the threat or allow the threat to continue firing?
What do we reasonably expect human beings to do when they come under intense fire in regards to taking cover behind cover or concealment?
One of the videos I saw, taken from a car I believe was next to the older guy that was killed, showed a crowd of people that looked like they were leaving work all walking right toward the incident, just like they would normally do, through the crosswalk. They appeared to be totally oblivious to the huge amount of police and the fact that anything was going on even though the squad cars were clearly visible and sirens were blaring. It wasn't until shots started popping off that they, as a whole, even seemed to notice something was wrong.
.
You get desensitized to that. How often you see major accidents with tons of flashing lights and sirens. Just this Saturday they're was a whole parade of cop cars near my house. Someone wasn't paying attention and slammed into the back of another car which caused a chain reaction.
dwhitehorne
12-09-19, 09:45
Quoted for those who may have missed this well thought out post.
As a police firearms and tactics instructor, reviewing the AAR and footage from this and implementing it into a training scenario will be my utmost priority. But I wonder, and would like honest answers:
What do we reasonably expect the outcome of an intense urban firefight to be where bullets continue to travel through intended targets?
What do we reasonably expect officers to do when they come under intense fire in an urban environment that is congested? Stop the threat or allow the threat to continue firing?
What do we reasonably expect human beings to do when they come under intense fire in regards to taking cover behind cover or concealment?
All good questions. Unfortunately we live in the era of second guessing and litigation. Everyone sees these gunfights on TV and movies everyday and think that is reality. The good guy has hundreds of rounds in one magazine and blasts away at everything that moves without a single stray bullet. In reality when someone breaks a fingernail the politically appointed LE leadership is ready to make an example.
We have a specific JPS scenario where an man with a gun points it at the officer and the school yard behind is full of kids. More than half of the officers take at least one shot. Most don't even see the kids until we review. Then we review the course objectives and remind them of Firearms Safety Rule 4 but technically they still took the shot. Something I'm certain they would do in a real situation.
In Force on Force training many times we see the officer duck behind the citizen they are talking with when the Sims rounds start flying. Not something we like to see, but it happens. It's hard to address a reflex reaction in training.
I always refer to a phrase "training by television" because officers watch TV/movies everyday. I see them once a year for In-service and twice for pistol/shotgun quals. It's hard to compete with Keanu Reeves for an officers time and attention. David
sundance435
12-09-19, 10:18
The 1986 Miami FBI shootout has been a case study for 30+ years, and rightly so. This melee on a busy interstate, I feel, will be treated much differently. It just looked like a wild free for all and we are fortunate there weren’t a lot more casualties.
I don't think this is quite the "game changer" that Miami was, but there's 33 years of hindsight, there, too. As others have pointed out, this thing was a shit sandwich from "go", with just varying degrees of bad outcomes. It makes me almost physically ill to see what happened to that UPS driver, but I don't know what I'd have done differently. I do not mean this to sound glib, but there was a one-in-a-million chance that driver was coming out the situation alive, given what we know at this point.
As for what LE should've/could've done differently, I wasn't there - you can't create a policy for that situation if the perp was firing from behind the hostage, especially considering there were occupied cars around the officers. Hostage situation ROEs go out the window when the hostage-taker is shooting back. If this situation is analyzed anywhere near as much as Miami, I have no doubt that the wrong conclusions will be drawn and SOPs/ROEs will change and produce unintended consequences of their own. It's a perpetual pendulum.
You hit several things in your very thoughtful post.
The report gives the strong impression that if you fired those forty-four cops the L.A.P.D. would suddenly become a pretty well-functioning police department.[/I]
from Million Dollar Murray, an essay by Malcolm Gladwell
The point being, that while there were problems, the public perception that LAPD was a force full of badge heavy racists intent on using excessive force, was wrong. In reality, it was a very small percentage of officers who were the problem. Obviously, this slant wasn't widely reported, as it didn't have a powerful visceral impact.
I've always thought this about LAPD, without having read what you posted (which I will now). LAPD's "problems" were magnified and distorted because of politics and the media, but that's probably not a shock to many on here. Same thing will happen to some degree here, but writ large for all LE. I'm always amazed when I look at LA, twice the size of Chi, with half of the offers, and yet they have a lower violent crime rate with homicide rates not even comparable. I think a lot of the credit for that belongs to LAPD and LASD. I don't have anything to back this up, but in my mind, that's because LAPD prioritizes putting better-trained officers on the street vs. just "more" for political talking points than a lot of big departments.
We have a specific JPS scenario where an man with a gun points it at the officer and the school yard behind is full of kids. More than half of the officers take at least one shot. Most don't even see the kids until we review. Then we review the course objectives and remind them of Firearms Safety Rule 4 but technically they still took the shot. Something I'm certain they would do in a real situation.
In Force on Force training many times we see the officer duck behind the citizen they are talking with when the Sims rounds start flying. Not something we like to see, but it happens. It's hard to address a reflex reaction in training.
I always refer to a phrase "training by television" because officers watch TV/movies everyday. I see them once a year for In-service and twice for pistol/shotgun quals. It's hard to compete with Keanu Reeves for an officers time and attention. David
Couldn't agree more. It's very eye-opening to see as an individual when you go through scenarios like that, as far as what you think you'd do and how you'd perform vs. what actually happens - all without the stress of the real situation. You also can't discount one bit the amount of influence TV and movies have on real-life events like this.
One thing I would like to see as a result of this and other events is a push for better-trained officers, not just putting as many as you can on the streets to score political points.
FWIW I was told by an old Nam era salt, “Toss enough lead around and somebody gonna catch it”
Not everybody is a sniper or a cleric from Equilibrium.
So I do wish people online would dial back how they could have “done better” when they never been shot at before.
Get shot at a few times. It’s way different when people are shooting back.
Rule of thumb - If you shoot at Police, they will shoot back.
Looking at this incident and you wonder what the tactics would be in a crowded shopping Mall like Mall of America in Minnesota or Destiny USA in Syracuse, NY? If you have criminals shooting in a crowd towards pursuing Police and at average citizens, what does Law Enforcement do? I guess you could disengage but what if that doesn't stop the criminals shooting?
These are the types of no-win scenarios where I would hate to be the one making that split-second decision and hope that your training is sufficient to handle the situation. This is why I never had any desire to do police work. I had enough of it working urban combat zones just from my aerial platform.
Rule of thumb - If you shoot at Police, they will shoot back.
Looking at this incident and you wonder what the tactics would be in a crowded shopping Mall like Mall of America in Minnesota or Destiny USA in Syracuse, NY? If you have criminals shooting in a crowd towards pursuing Police and at average citizens, what does Law Enforcement do? I guess you could disengage but what if that doesn't stop the criminals shooting?
These are the types of no-win scenarios where I would hate to be the one making that split-second decision and hope that your training is sufficient to handle the situation. This is why I never had any desire to do police work. I had enough of it working urban combat zones just from my aerial platform.
If what you posted prior is accurate, that there was a screw up in how the traffic was directed and those in pursuit were caught flat footed when they came to that intersection, and it ended up as it did, would explain a lot I thought.
I wish to preemptively state that before anybody jumps on the officers trying to clear gridlock traffic, that it is very hard to manage that many vehicles that fast especially with people wanting to be looky loos or simply not taking it seriously.
What's interesting is I have attended Tea Party rallies - I see in them a grass roots movement of ordinary Americans from all walks of life, including different ethnic groups. I am also against unfettered immigration, but it's not based on racial concerns. I see incidences of law enforcement abuses and bad behavior, but I don't bash the entire profession. This makes me a "Boot Licker" in the vernacular of the people I am describing.
Now when it comes to the Military Industrial Complex - a necessary evil in my mind. In the build up to WW2, Japan and Germany both had a massive MIC in the making. The US wasn't up to the task prior to Pearl Harbor and we had to get with the program fast to compete. After WW2 the US vowed to never be outspent or outdone by our geopolitical enemies. Despite the abuses of greed and political lobbying for constant war, the MIC still keeps us competitive in the world militarily. But that is for a different venue, I guess.
I have numerous friends in Israel, mainly former IDF members I worked with there on two different times, and when they came to the US to train. As an American soldier, I was treated better in Israel than in certain places in Europe. Many Israelis have family here or were born in the US. Other than experiencing rocket attacks from the Golan Heights towards my general location, I felt quite at home and really like the people. Everyone I encountered were extremely pro-American.
Let me ask - are your prior military? Not that it really matters but it helps me understand things from your perspective.
Negative on prior service.
Also - placeholder till I can respond further.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quoted for those who may have missed this well thought out post.
As a police firearms and tactics instructor, reviewing the AAR and footage from this and implementing it into a training scenario will be my utmost priority. But I wonder, and would like honest answers:
What do we reasonably expect the outcome of an intense urban firefight to be where bullets continue to travel through intended targets?
What do we reasonably expect officers to do when they come under intense fire in an urban environment that is congested? Stop the threat or allow the threat to continue firing?
What do we reasonably expect human beings to do when they come under intense fire in regards to taking cover behind cover or concealment?
I'll kind of try to answer all three of your questions:
1) Before I'd go scenario on this one I'd have a discussion with officers involved in the training to determine what they think the response would be. If you are going to be training groups of 12 officers, break them in small groups of three or four, present them with the scenario as a 'sticky problem' and send them off for a while to cuss and discuss as they come up with an answer to how to handle it. Have each group present their answers and lead a discussion of each solution. Then discuss the solutions as a whole in order to snip out the unsuitable responses and arrive at a solution.
Hopefully the end result of the discussion should be closely aligned with what you have come up with, in some cases it might be better. By being actively involved in the process, officers are more likely to take more away from the training, and retain it longer.
In terms of lessons to impart the first thing I'd go for is on of my major rules of officer presence 'don't make things worse than they already are.' If we ask ourselves how the officers did or didn't follow this rule in the situation, most answers should be in the didn't category.
One of the things I would address that might not be obvious is that often officers tend to move forward/into situations because they want to get in on the action or don't really know what else to do. I like to emphasize that each movement should give a new tactical advantage - if you can't see a new advantage don't move. How did the officers handle this on the aerial views?
I'd bring up to Sergeants/shift leaders that if at all possible/appropriate - they should try to de-stress their officers enroute by giving them things to think about - 'once you are on-scene, find cover, be aware of your background and take only good, high percentage shots, check to make sure that you aren't moving into another officer's line of fire if you move.'
Movement tactics - officers should know how to bound.
Cover - officers should no what areas on a vehicle offer the best cover. They should also know about how far from a subject on foot they need to be in order to have a good roll over prone shot from under a vehicle - both with the vehicle length-wise and sideways.
2) In terms of expectations:
a. You don't fire until you have a clear shot and a clear background.
b. If it is congested and the bad guys are returning fire to police/ police positions only - go to cover, hunker down and follow one. If the threat is continuing to fire indiscriminately and numerous bystanders are being killed or injured the action needs to be close with and put them down. In doing so designated folks should deliver fire to the suspects location (not everyone) while other officers move into the threat (see above - officers need to know how to bound) (accomplishing that with a single agency response is difficult, probably nigh on impossible with a multiple agency responswe - unless they've all had the same training)
c. Get to the first available cover or concealment, move to better cover when you can do so. Is it appropriate for officer to self-suppress fire as they move? If you think it is then you need to train it.
Got to go.
In terms of lessons to impart the first thing I'd go for is on of my major rules of officer presence 'don't make things worse than they already are.' If we ask ourselves how the officers did or didn't follow this rule in the situation, most answers should be in the didn't category.
One of the things I would address that might not be obvious is that often officers tend to move forward/into situations because they want to get in on the action or don't really know what else to do. I like to emphasize that each movement should give a new tactical advantage - if you can't see a new advantage don't move. How did the officers handle this on the aerial views?
I'd bring up to Sergeants/shift leaders that if at all possible/appropriate - they should try to de-stress their officers enroute by giving them things to think about - 'once you are on-scene, find cover, be aware of your background and take only good, high percentage shots, check to make sure that you aren't moving into another officer's line of fire if you move.'
Movement tactics - officers should know how to bound.
Cover - officers should no what areas on a vehicle offer the best cover. They should also know about how far from a subject on foot they need to be in order to have a good roll over prone shot from under a vehicle - both with the vehicle length-wise and sideways.
I get where you are coming from but drawing strictly from my years as a patrol officer (2000's) few, very few cops I worked with had the capabilities to function at this level. At my department which had around 275 to 300 sworn, maybe half an handful to a dozen could pull this off. Most of them were either serious training junkies like I was or combat veterans.
The majority couldn't function well at all during what to us was a normal friday night car chase with a frequent flyer. And God help you if you were sent on a hot call. Sometimes you were better off alone than with some of the idiots I might get for backup. Those of us who knew each other well enough to judge abilities stuck together, but we didn't always end up in the same patrol zone on the same night. When that would occur we felt a level of confidence to go out and see what we could get to jump off because we knew the guy or gal next to you had your backs and could handle the shit when it all went sideways.
I like the direction this is going. Learn from it, put together some modules to work through in training, do hasty AAR's, continue to drill it, and refine appropriate responses.
Averageman
12-09-19, 18:36
No matter how you War Game the scenerio, no matter how much crawl, walk and run you do in training, the bad guys have a day in this too.
You can't control that, you cannot predict anything past what is the most logical next move.
Logical people however don't involve themselves at this level of criminal activity.
At some point if the criminals decide to shoot into a crowd, all that training goes to hell and now your way outside their loop and that's where they want you.
sundance435
12-09-19, 19:37
No matter how you War Game the scenerio, no matter how much crawl, walk and run you do in training, the bad guys have a day in this too.
You can't control that, you cannot predict anything past what is the most logical next move.
Logical people however don't involve themselves at this level of criminal activity.
At some point if the criminals decide to shoot into a crowd, all that training goes to hell and now your way outside their loop and that's where they want you.
That's kind of a myopic view of this and exactly why your average patrol guy needs more "dynamic" shooting training, especially move and shoot and shooting as a team - I'd wager 90% of them don't have any at all, unless they sought it out. You're also giving a lot of credit to the bad guys. They weren't Matix and Platt. They were cornered prey and acted like it and I doubt they had anything resembling a plan with a desired outcome once they hijacked that truck, just pure higher-primate reaction. Better training can and will trump that 9 times out of 10.
It's the one-in-a-million Matix and Platt types that are harder to train for and really not worth it from a cost-benefit standpoint, but this situation is more likely and more trainable if the right conclusions are drawn from a process like 26 Inf outlined.
Averageman
12-09-19, 23:11
I've got nothing against training, of course it is vital to remain proficient.
My point is you can do your best, you're obligated to, but you're dealing with crazy.
You can't expect what guys who are backed into a corner will do.
In MOUT, bullets just keep on zinging down the road. Unintended consequences happen a lot of civilian casualties are going to happen.
Well, this was just to funny not to post so...
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/79389363_10219376477416540_7863935224617369600_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ohc=bnET8tAngMUAQnjSql-TC4KiaIUvsn0d0AlmdjIy4yCYg9HM2LBHahGMA&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=2e740eccc54e8ff783b290e0f2f61513&oe=5E7B63BD
As far as the situation as a whole...the fact that, to me, there seems to be a number of ways to interpret this event seems to mean that it was just a FUBAR situation, and no matter what happened Murphy was going to get his vote.
I mean, for all we know, they may have heard "escaping in UPS truck", and when the shooting kicked off, mistook the driver for an accomplice in the heat of the moment.
Who knows...
That being said, I also think this maybe could have been handled a bit better, and I'm honestly surprised there were also no officer on officer casualties. I can't help but also question the LE actions, given some of the totally WTF things I've seen footage of over the last couple years leads me to believe there is an underlying lack of competence in many departments, media and hollywood to the contrary....
Just seems like a bad day all around.
Hardly the level of 'jack-booted thuggery" some seem to be ascribing to it.
26Inf brought up a great point about capabilities of the deputies/officers responding on scene. I’ve worked with a few great ones I knew who would drag my arse out of a sticky situation, some who could rise to the occasion and cancelling many who are great at taking reports. The issues is not one which is easily fixed.
Most agencies only do the minimum training required to get all the checks in the block. Getting most cops to do more than required in training is a bitch. They fight you every step of the way and will try to cause issues within the groups. When you pull an officer of the street for training you have an open hole in the shift schedule which has to be covered. Admin would rather get the state required training completed for the year and nothing else since it takes money out of the budget and officers off the road.
When a citizen calls for a cop they want one now in many cases and will get upset if they have to wait for an extended period of time. While they want well trained officers responding they also want one coming when they forget to lock their car door and their property gets taken. It can be a fine line for anyone to walk between the proper and correct training and the minimum training.
Dan
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-10-19, 12:50
No Elon Musk Tesla truck jokes?
dwhitehorne
12-10-19, 15:17
Most agencies only do the minimum training required to get all the checks in the block. Getting most cops to do more than required in training is a bitch. They fight you every step of the way and will try to cause issues within the groups. When you pull an officer of the street for training you have an open hole in the shift schedule which has to be covered. Admin would rather get the state required training completed for the year and nothing else since it takes money out of the budget and officers off the road.
Dan
This is spot on with what I see everyday at work. David
The whole thing was a dumpster fire from the word go. I’ve read several places where everyone is blaming the law enforcement action taken. Let’s back it up. The two pos’s who started it are to blame. End of story. Two innocent lost their lives and that is the travesty in this whole debacle. Let be happy there weren’t any more innocent lives lost. Let’s be happy there weren’t any officer killed. It will be analyzed over and over again. Let the investigation happen.
This past weekend has been a shit show for law enforcement murders.
One last thing, Peterson was a dumb ass at the high school and I do not support what he did.
There is video footage shot from at least one helicopter. Do you know if a police helicopter was following the UPS truck or another helicopter flown by a news outlet with a crew member that was in direct contact with LE dispatch while the UPS truck was being followed?
Was there an industrial area nearby or was the UPS truck headed toward a less populated area while it was being pursued?
Was there only one LE agency on scene when the firefight occurred?
There is video footage shot from at least one helicopter. Do you know if a police helicopter was following the UPS truck or another helicopter flown by a news outlet with a crew member that was in direct contact with LE dispatch while the UPS truck was being followed?
Was there an industrial area nearby or was the UPS truck headed toward a less populated area while it was being pursued?
Was there only one LE agency on scene when the firefight occurred?
The video I saw looked like it came from a news station, and it kept losing focus. I thought there were several departments involved. They had entered the community of Miramar and there were officers from Pembroke Pines (the adjacent PD from the north) who had joined in. The direction of travel from Coral Cables was north bound. If they had not closed off that next 4 way intersection, there would not have been the traffic jam and the UPS truck would have continued northbound. Looking at maps, it seems to thin out to a more residential suburban locale.
The video I saw looked like it came from a news station, and it kept losing focus. I thought there were several departments involved. They had entered the community of Miramar and there were officers from Pembroke Pines (the adjacent PD from the north) who had joined in. The direction of travel from Coral Cables was north bound. If they had not closed off that next 4 way intersection, there would not have been the traffic jam and the UPS truck would have continued northbound. Looking at maps, it seems to thin out to a more residential suburban locale.
There are a lot of retired and active LEO on other websites that are asking why pursuing LEO did not follow the UPS truck from a distance until they reached a less populated area. Their thought process was to follow the UPS truck to an area where there would be fewer innocent people within the danger zone before setting up a roadblock or making contact.
There are a lot of retired and active LEO on other websites that are asking why pursuing LEO did not follow the UPS truck from a distance until they reached a less populated area. Their thought process was to follow the UPS truck to an area where there would be fewer innocent people within the danger zone before setting up a roadblock or making contact.
Lots of "What if" thinking about this deal. The UPS truck had already gone at least 20 miles - what if you let it go another 20 miles or pick a number? At high speed there could have been a wreck with someone's vehicle, they run out of gas, another vehicle get's carjacked and another person is either shot or taken hostage............
I personally think LE was scrambling just to stay on top of this situation and going from one municipality to another you have added confusion of other departments also trying to get up to speed on what was going on. Since I don't automatically condemn LE in this incident, I may not be popular with some.
I just think it could have gone so many different directions with untold possible outcomes. It's sad when two bad guys are the cause of the deaths of two innocents when it should have been two dead bad guys only.
There are a lot of retired and active LEO on other websites that are asking why pursuing LEO did not follow the UPS truck from a distance until they reached a less populated area. Their thought process was to follow the UPS truck to an area where there would be fewer innocent people within the danger zone before setting up a roadblock or making contact.
There are no less populated areas in South Florida. This was a very tough, very unfortunate scenario that I think really can’t be Monday morning quarterbacked.
The more I meditate on this the more I honestly think this was going to end poorly no matter what.
I think at times we devise lots of little “formulas” based on 20, 30, and sometimes 40 year old training films. Seriously. I’ve seen porno from the 80s that had better acting and presentation than training films made of that era that are still shown.
It took 9/11 to illustrate that the “innocent” days of terrorism no longer involved hijacking a plane to land and play Monty Hall until Delta Force shows up
Same here, I posted a link. You had 40 year old robbers. They knew they weren’t getting out of this by the time they took over the truck.
I mean, seriously, someone tell me..
Slow moving vehicle, blocked by traffic, they have a hostage and are willing to shoot. I admit I was negative towards them because it is Broward county. But then I thought about it.
Getting shot at, not the best cover, it’s already spoiled, and I have a rifle and I am not going to die here. You can only do so much at any given time while being reactive.
And some point they were gonna hit traffic regardless.
I think in our minds we want them to follow the plan. Get to an unpopulated area, stage up, set up snipers, get a negotiator, get their family on the horn, and talk them down.
That’s a nice formula but it doesn’t happen that way.
I admit I was too hard on them at first but I can’t war game a better scenario. They were gonna fight regardless.
There are no less populated areas in South Florida. This was a very tough, very unfortunate scenario that I think really can’t be Monday morning quarterbacked.
This.
This was just a straight up Kobayashi Maru. It happens
There are no less populated areas in South Florida. This was a very tough, very unfortunate scenario that I think really can’t be Monday morning quarterbacked.
You're right, it was a tough situation. Questions were asked, but judgment reserved until all the facts and factors related to the incident are learned.
A few of the commenting retired LEO that I know had been in pursuits that ended badly.
TheChunkNorris
12-11-19, 21:01
There are no less populated areas in South Florida. This was a very tough, very unfortunate scenario that I think really can’t be Monday morning quarterbacked.
This and it was in rush hour on a Friday.
This.
This was just a straight up Kobayashi Maru. It happens
This wasn’t a battle with the Klingons, it was two retards who though it was a great idea to rob a jewelry store then panicked and jacked a UPS truck.
We all hope our cops could/would be much smarter and a bit more street savvy than what we actually saw.
This wasn’t a battle with the Klingons, it was two retards who though it was a great idea to rob a jewelry store then panicked and jacked a UPS truck.
We all hope our cops could/would be much smarter and a bit more street savvy than what we actually saw.
......okay.
How would you have righted the wrongs that day even with 20/20 hindsight?
Realistically. None of this playing God bit.
Here’s what we know:
-They were willing to shoot
-They didn’t mind using a human shield
-This was not their first robbery
-Traffic was a mess that day
You tell me, with your street savvy, how that could have gone better.
I seriously cannot think of anything after some consideration that could have pushed the needle towards anything peaceful.
You know, slick.... “Two retards”. Yeah. With guns. Shooting at you. At that point, Social status, race, religion, GPA, Credit Score, and all that are a complete non-issue.
I’m just waiting to hear your big solution so we can get the FBI to make it SOP.
This wasn’t a battle with the Klingons, it was two retards who though it was a great idea to rob a jewelry store then panicked and jacked a UPS truck.
We all hope our cops could/would be much smarter and a bit more street savvy than what we actually saw.
We react and perform to the level we are trained. A lot of agencies have a small training budget and only train to minimum standards. That is an unfortunate truth.
People ask questions about what might have been done differently; that's human nature. Those of us who have been involved in critical incidents and train personnel to respond want to learn what we might do differently in the future.
Judging and criticizing without knowing all the facts, including level of training and experience, serves no useful purpose.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-12-19, 12:28
This wasn’t a battle with the Klingons, it was two retards who though it was a great idea to rob a jewelry store then panicked and jacked a UPS truck.
We all hope our cops could/would be much smarter and a bit more street savvy than what we actually saw.
Boy, this post stinks of ivory tower safety.
When was the last time you got into a shootout with:
two retards who though it was a great idea to rob a jewelry store then panicked and jacked a UPS truck
And I am genuinely curious. Just based off of that generality, multiple armed suspects who just committed an armed robbery, armed motor vehicle theft, kidnapping, etc are by your estimation not dangerous? In other circles of the world beyond yours, they would be considered the most dangerous animal on the face of the earth.
I read all this nonsense and it just cracks me up.
it was two retards who though it was a great idea to rob a jewelry store then panicked and jacked a UPS truck.
Not gonna comment on the rest as it does not deserve commentary, but my personal hypothesis is something prevented them from getting to their get away car. Was not their first rodeo and they didn't plan a get away car? FBI take down that went south? The FBI was already there during the shooting too, so either they just happened to be close by (possible too) or were involved early on in the event.
Boy, this post stinks of ivory tower safety.
When was the last time you got into a shootout with:
And I am genuinely curious. Just based off of that generality, multiple armed suspects who just committed an armed robbery, armed motor vehicle theft, kidnapping, etc are by your estimation not dangerous? In other circles of the world beyond yours, they would be considered the most dangerous animal on the face of the earth.
I read all this nonsense and it just cracks me up.
Where did he say the 2 weren't dangerous?
Source always suspect being CNN, but more info on shots fired, etc:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/us/florida-ups-truck-police-chase-shooting/index.html
Personally, I'm most curious as to why they Hijacked the UPS truck. I feel like that's important to the overall direction it went after that.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-12-19, 13:16
Where did he say the 2 weren't dangerous?
Oh jsbhike :rolleyes:
Oh jsbhike :rolleyes:
Is rolling your eyes your way of saying he never said they were not dangerous?
Source always suspect being CNN, but more info on shots fired, etc:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/us/florida-ups-truck-police-chase-shooting/index.html
Personally, I'm most curious as to why they Hijacked the UPS truck. I feel like that's important to the overall direction it went after that.
Opportunity? Most UPS drivers I've seen making deliveries leave a door open on their truck.
Opportunity? Most UPS drivers I've seen making deliveries leave a door open on their truck.
Sure, but it sounds to me like something forced them to change plans as I don't envision them having made no plans for getting away as they'd been doing this for a while. Maybe getting into the gun fight with the store owner was the cause, but seems weak to me.
Boy, this post stinks of ivory tower safety.
When was the last time you got into a shootout with:
And I am genuinely curious. Just based off of that generality, multiple armed suspects who just committed an armed robbery, armed motor vehicle theft, kidnapping, etc are by your estimation not dangerous? In other circles of the world beyond yours, they would be considered the most dangerous animal on the face of the earth.
I read all this nonsense and it just cracks me up.
No offense intended, I just want to point out that you and several folks on this thread are coming off as defenders of police actions no matter what. I don't believe that is your intent, but that is the vibe I'm picking up.
Go back to page 7 on this thread. Look at the Mexican/Spanish TV video. I'm not familiar with generally accepted training that would advocate guys moving into the open, at a truck containing a couple of folks who were shooting, at the speed these guys were moving. First day tactical analysis would also indicate that if you swing wide on that approach w/o cover, you are giving the bad guys in the truck the advantage.
I posted this earlier:
The driver, and the citizens on the expressway, didn't have the luxury of choice.
You unass a patrol unit on a call with a rifle, hell, any kind of police equipment, and you are making the promise to the public that you know how to use the equipment correctly to protect.
There is such a thing as contagious fire, just because it is a thing doesn't mean it should be accepted. Some of the folks who were firing during the various videos I've seen clearly shouldn't have been firing IAW the four rules.
Whether it was a training issue, a personnel issue, or a communications issue, is unknown to me. But, I believe this needs to be a learning experience for all LE.
......okay.
How would you have righted the wrongs that day even with 20/20 hindsight?
Realistically. None of this playing God bit.
Here’s what we know:
-They were willing to shoot
-They didn’t mind using a human shield
-This was not their first robbery
-Traffic was a mess that day
You tell me, with your street savvy, how that could have gone better.
I seriously cannot think of anything after some consideration that could have pushed the needle towards anything peaceful.
You know, slick.... “Two retards”. Yeah. With guns. Shooting at you. At that point, Social status, race, religion, GPA, Credit Score, and all that are a complete non-issue.
I’m just waiting to hear your big solution so we can get the FBI to make it SOP.
You invoke science fantasy then cop an attitude when called out on it...
There were many points during that 25 mile chase where the locals had done a great job of choking off traffic from getting on the interstate.
It would of been a better choice for the cops to have chosen the point where violence was to occur not the bad guys.
No offense intended, I just want to point out that you and several folks on this thread are coming off as defenders of police actions no matter what. I don't believe that is your intent, but that is the vibe I'm picking up.
Go back to page 7 on this thread. Look at the Mexican/Spanish TV video. I'm not familiar with generally accepted training that would advocate guys moving into the open, at a truck containing a couple of folks who were shooting, at the speed these guys were moving. First day tactical analysis would also indicate that if you swing wide on that approach w/o cover, you are giving the bad guys in the truck the advantage.
I posted this earlier:
The driver, and the citizens on the expressway, didn't have the luxury of choice.
You unass a patrol unit on a call with a rifle, hell, any kind of police equipment, and you are making the promise to the public that you know how to use the equipment correctly to protect.
There is such a thing as contagious fire, just because it is a thing doesn't mean it should be accepted. Some of the folks who were firing during the various videos I've seen clearly shouldn't have been firing IAW the four rules.
Whether it was a training issue, a personnel issue, or a communications issue, is unknown to me. But, I believe this needs to be a learning experience for all LE.
This is the constructive content I enjoy reading that separates this place from Barfcom.
There was clearly no order in their approach. I can back them up totally until it turned into a chinese fire drill. Too many chiefs and not enough injuns and the little enfilade they had running kinda showed that.
Could’ve been better could’ve been worse.
A lesson for sure.
You invoke science fantasy then cop an attitude when called out on it...
So we can’t do metaphors anymore?
ETA still waiting on your solution
Will Brink asks good questions and 26 Inf brings up valid points. It will undoubtedly take weeks to thoroughly investigate the incident and give us a clear explanation about what occurred.
The one image that is sticking in my head is that I am stuck in traffic on the freeway with my family. Suddenly there is a police officer leaning across my hood firing at bad guys while my car with me and my family in it start taking incoming rounds. Essentially using us as human shields, which is a problem.
Will Brink asks good questions and 26 Inf brings up valid points. It will undoubtedly take weeks to thoroughly investigate the incident and give us a clear explanation about what occurred.
This. The intellectual approach would be to wait for a total after incident scene processing.
Plus body cams. Right now we are debating over aerial news reports. We cannot see what the officers in contact saw nor even get a definitive on whose bullet killed whom.
Sure, but it sounds to me like something forced them to change plans as I don't envision them having made no plans for getting away as they'd been doing this for a while. Maybe getting into the gun fight with the store owner was the cause, but seems weak to me.
I pulled this out of the OP's link to the article: "The suspects fled in a truck, then carjacked the UPS delivery truck and its driver not long afterward to start the chase into the southern portion of Broward County."
We'll have to learn what prompted the suspects to switch vehicles, i.e. the truck was blocked in traffic, police disabled the vehicle, etc.
So we can’t do metaphors anymore?
ETA still waiting on your solution
Yeah on second thought your post was kinda funny so apologies
But my thoughts on handling it were just below the quoted part of my post
You invoke science fantasy then cop an attitude when called out on it...
There were many points during that 25 mile chase where the locals had done a great job of choking off traffic from getting on the interstate.
It would of been a better choice for the cops to have chosen the point where violence was to occur not the bad guys.
Everyone who is not a cop knows how to do it better than the cops do it, no matter what "it" is. LEOs are damned if they do and damned if they don't about 99% of the time.
So, at some point during the 20+ mile chase on a relatively clear section of roadway where a clear shot presents itself, a cop shoots either A) the driver of the hijacked truck or B) a tire or tires of said truck; driver loses control, rolls or flips truck killing all inside. Result...Cops are excoriated for acting too aggressively. Or they do what they did, keeping the vehicle in sight and following it waiting for a more opportune moment to take the felons into custody. Since so many are jumping at hypotheticals...let's just say the intersection where all hell broke loose had been cleared and the robber/hijacker/kidnappers were able to get through the intersection. Another mile and a half down the road, the truck T-bones a school bus carrying a local varsity football team to a game and kills/injures several student athletes? Result - the cops are excoriated for not putting an end to the chase sooner by whatever means necessary.
Reality is that the police seldom get the opportunity to decide what, where or when violence occurs. Criminals, especially felons, are somewhat unpredictable. Reality is that sometimes bad shit happens and there isn't a damn thing that can be done to prevent it.
... Reality is that sometimes bad shit happens and there isn't a damn thing that can be done to prevent it.
Very true. But this was not one of those times. Not by a long shot.
SomeOtherGuy
12-13-19, 11:09
Thinking about this a week later:
1) The UPS driver was likely to die in many different scenarios.
2) The other innocent driver would not be dead or even involved in many other scenarios.
3) Some of the officers on scene did two F- stupid moves:
-A) Using cars occupied by innocent people as cover, and potentially getting those people killed.
-B) Having little or no discipline about shooting when the "beyond the target" was cars full of innocent people.
Ideal resolution? Stop the truck someplace remote and have snipers take out the bad guys (or get BGs to surrender - not likely). Some chance UPS driver would have lived in that situation, and at least they wouldn't have had hundreds or more innocent people in the crossfire.
Failing that, see A&B for what not to do.
Thinking about this a week later:
1) The UPS driver was likely to die in many different scenarios.
2) The other innocent driver would not be dead or even involved in many other scenarios.
3) Some of the officers on scene did two F- stupid moves:
-A) Using cars occupied by innocent people as cover, and potentially getting those people killed.
-B) Having little or no discipline about shooting when the "beyond the target" was cars full of innocent people.
Ideal resolution? Stop the truck someplace remote and have snipers take out the bad guys (or get BGs to surrender - not likely). Some chance UPS driver would have lived in that situation, and at least they wouldn't have had hundreds or more innocent people in the crossfire.
Failing that, see A&B for what not to do.
Constructive post.
That’s what they were trying to do until they hit traffic. Their makeshift fireteam had no real order to it and it became a cluster.
Everyone who is not a cop knows how to do it better than the cops do it, no matter what "it" is. LEOs are damned if they do and damned if they don't about 99% of the time.
So, at some point during the 20+ mile chase on a relatively clear section of roadway where a clear shot presents itself, a cop shoots either A) the driver of the hijacked truck or B) a tire or tires of said truck; driver loses control, rolls or flips truck killing all inside. Result...Cops are excoriated for acting too aggressively. Or they do what they did, keeping the vehicle in sight and following it waiting for a more opportune moment to take the felons into custody. Since so many are jumping at hypotheticals...let's just say the intersection where all hell broke loose had been cleared and the robber/hijacker/kidnappers were able to get through the intersection. Another mile and a half down the road, the truck T-bones a school bus carrying a local varsity football team to a game and kills/injures several student athletes? Result - the cops are excoriated for not putting an end to the chase sooner by whatever means necessary.
Reality is that the police seldom get the opportunity to decide what, where or when violence occurs. Criminals, especially felons, are somewhat unpredictable. Reality is that sometimes bad shit happens and there isn't a damn thing that can be done to prevent it.
Well, I can't speak to everyone who's not a cop, because I spent the majority of the 2000's in uniform so I guess under your standards my opinion might mean something?
I don't subscribe to the idea that only cops can speak up about cop matters. Lot of other humans are just as smart or smarter when it comes to matters cops wrongly believe they and they alone are the sole participants to opinions...
I feel that this incident will become todays "Columbine moment", where tactics once thought solid are quickly replaced with ones that would be unheard of prior to said incident. Before Columbine all cops were taught to do exactly what responding officers did that day. Now we evolved to the days of the quad formation, that next evolved into first arriving backup going in as a pair, to now its you don't wait you are going to the sound of the gunfire, ignoring the dead, dying and injured with one objective. To stop by any means necessary the threat. You move in, locate and end the threat.
I see something similar slowly evolving from this.
Reasonable people will understand and forgive an incident say, where the cops saw a clear location then by force used vehicles to disable the truck then immediately initiating contact/violence. The robbers/killers had already shown violence when they shot the store owner. So if during this scenario the UPS driver was seriously injured or killed either by an intentional car wreck or friendly fire. People would/should forgive the cops and see it as the best possible outcome to a huge $hit sandwich.
Of course many will scream and yell no matter what, those people are idiots of the highest order.
dwhitehorne
12-13-19, 17:27
Their makeshift fireteam had no real order to it and it became a cluster.
I see this every week during in-service training. We take a bunch of Alphas in patrol who work their entire career as solo units. One day a year during training we throw them into groups of 4 in a T formation and expect them to blend into a cohesive fighting unit. Today it was pouring down rain and high 30’s. The officers I had today probably didn’t get much out of the training. I’ll see them again next year unless they can come up with a court slip and get out of it. David.
I see this every week during in-service training. We take a bunch of Alphas in patrol who work their entire career as solo units. One day a year during training we throw them into groups of 4 in a T formation and expect them to blend into a cohesive fighting unit. Today it was pouring down rain and high 30’s. The officers I had today probably didn’t get much out of the training. I’ll see them again next year unless they can come up with a court slip and get out of it. David.
An instructor I knew who taught entries had a clever trick. He would get the Alpha bunch and make them shoot for a “slot”. He wouldn’t tell them what the “slot” would be.
So naturally everybody brought their A game and top guy every go round got given a card with a number on it. (1, 2, 3, etc).
Well it became a game of conceit and it got where they were measuring group sizes between then last two guys.
So the guys who shot “worst” were now “first”. And they were made pointmen, slack, center, drag from “worst” to “best” and were not allowed to deviate and if they did they failed. It taught some humility. Because as he put it “You may well be the ‘best’ man but may well have to take orders from a regular guy”. After that it went from bulldogging a dynamic or a takedown to actual skill building and planning. The shotcaller had guys with ostensibly better marksmanship and thus had no excuses for failure to use his guys and the jocks had to listen to the plan and follow it and maintain bearing and put the pride aside.
After that, guys became open minded and started thinking.
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