View Full Version : Car guys: Best-sounding 4 and 6 cyl engines?
I'm thinking my next car needs to be on the lighter-side weight-wise. (At least a few hundred pounds lighter than a Mustang so were talking about 3200 lbs or lighter) This probably means it's going to be a 4 or 6 cyl.
Sound is very important to me so it begs the question: What is the best / better sounding 4 and 6 cyl engines / cars?
Adrenaline_6
12-09-19, 15:32
I don't think there are many for me. Some might be fast, but they sound buzzy obnoxious. Nothing like a V8/10/12.
Sixes overs fours.
If I had to pick, the Nissan makes a decent one (370Z) and the older Toyota Supra and the Audi TT is nice. Exotic would be the Alfa Romeo. Even Porsche's, although fast, are buzzy as hell.
If I had to pick a four...it wouldn't be a car; it would be the awesome sounding V-4's in the Aprilia RSV4 and Ducati's Panigale V4. No car compares. Edit:Forgot the STI and EVO if I had to pick a 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW0tElrjbrc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LcChlzTHU
Best V6 I ever heard was the Toyota 2JZ
The Nissan VR38 TT sounds bad ass too.
Coal Dragger
12-09-19, 16:01
The 2JZ is an inline 6.....
Generally inline 6’s have a firing order that sounds great. V6’s not so much.
Inline 4’s are not much in the audio pleasure department. So find a horizontally opposed 4, they rumble.
My personal favorite I6 is the BMW S54, which is no longer in production and would be a horrible proposition to maintain long term because BMW build quality is barely a few steps above British or Italian garbage.
Otherwise the venerable H6 as used by Porsche is tough to beat when naturally aspirated. So find a 911 GT3 with the 4.0L H6, try not to cream your shorts.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-19, 16:27
Air cooled Flat six :)
Coal Dragger
12-09-19, 16:30
They’re getting more and more expensive. The 993 series cars and prior are climbing in value.
I am also going suggest a Porsche flat 6.
An I6 can sound good, other than that a turbo will sound more like a turbo, and much better to me, than an I4 or V6. Then there are boxers, that's it's own sound, with the turbo Subaru's unrefined but unapologetically brute force sound being distinct.
The Volvo T6 twin charged engines have a nice throb to them, for a 4 cyl.
Fours at low revs sound like a dwarf farting down a drainpipe-. A turbo straight six sounds better than any V6.
turnburglar
12-09-19, 17:22
Wait, why does curb weight matter?
I used to spend A LOT of time in a e36 BMW in the canyons. It had an inline 6 that was a sweet motor. If I took out the 2.5L inline 6 and dropped in a 6.2L LSx the car would have gotten even lighter. The secret weapon in weight vs power is a pushrod V8. The massive heads on a DOHC V6 make it much larger and heavier than a pushrod V8.
Lightweight plus V8 = Corvette.
I've always thought the Nissan/Infiniti VQ motors sounded awesome. I had a G37 for a few years and loved everything about it except the horrible depreciation.
fedupflyer
12-09-19, 21:16
Cayman GTS
Just bought one
F80 M3, just sold mine. It was tuned and roared to life on start-up. That was with the active sound turned off, hate that....
Wait, why does curb weight matter?
I used to spend A LOT of time in a e36 BMW in the canyons. It had an inline 6 that was a sweet motor. If I took out the 2.5L inline 6 and dropped in a 6.2L LSx the car would have gotten even lighter. The secret weapon in weight vs power is a pushrod V8. The massive heads on a DOHC V6 make it much larger and heavier than a pushrod V8.
Lightweight plus V8 = Corvette.
Why does lightweight matter? My cars have been 3400 lbs and up for about 12 years now. Would like to have something lighter.
But still sound great.
Seems like the best-sounding non-v8 cars are the horizontally opposed engines. In my price range we're talking about STI's. Too many doors and not nice to look at though.
Or maybe I'll end up with a C6 Corvette. Hell the 'vette is lighter and gets better mpg than the 4 cyl Subaru's...insurance is less, too.
4-cyl: 4G63/SR20DET
6-cyl: RB26/2JZ
4-cyl: 4G63/SR20DET
6-cyl: RB26/2JZ
Yea...not familiar. Mazda?
GTR Nismo??:cool:
I really never thought about it as I'm running a 6.2 LT4 V8...I've always found it interesting how car guys are so in tune with their exhaust sound. Now my ears are shot from so many years of wing shooting as a kid with no protection, but the exhaust note on my big V8 sounds fine stock. It's amazing how much $$$$ & time other owners spend to swap out, add headers, x-pipe, etc to not only improve the breathing / HP, but specifically looking for certain sound. Maybe it's my border local, but any 'loud' 4's & 6's are just wrong & I envision a ricer as soon as I hear it. I drove an 80's Buick Regal Grand National & let me tell you that was a neat V6!! Fastest production US car at the time I think?? Almost had dad talked into one but he decided on a Taurus SHO which had a big yamaha V6. I wish I could recall their tune when wound up...anyway, I'm sure you have some aftermarket exhaust options regardless what you decide.
Like stated, the V8's aren't too bad & I can get pretty good mileage for a heavy camaro reaching 400ci but you have to keep the rpm's 1500 & under...what fun is that with 650hp & 650tq & not hearing the blower whine??
The_War_Wagon
12-10-19, 11:36
428 Super CobraJet
It's like two, 214 cubic inch four-bangers, welded together in perfect harmony... :cool:
The 2JZ is an inline 6.....
You are right, my mistake,
Personally I think you are making a "lightweight" distinction without much difference. 200 lbs less than a Mustang isn't lightweight, while a difference in weight distribution and suspension can make different car models feel much heavier or lighter than they are.
Have you driven a Miata or BRZ?
Adrenaline_6
12-10-19, 13:24
Yea...not familiar. Mazda?
Mitsu/Nissan
Nissan/Toyota
I'm thinking my next car needs to be on the lighter-side weight-wise. (At least a few hundred pounds lighter than a Mustang so were talking about 3200 lbs or lighter) This probably means it's going to be a 4 or 6 cyl.
Sound is very important to me so it begs the question: What is the best / better sounding 4 and 6 cyl engines / cars?
Sound Quality is critical to me as well. So much so, I led the PT NVH Sound Quality at FoMoCo from 2002 to 2007.
With cars going from naturally aspirated to turbocharged ya gonna be difficult to get sound spectra like a naturally aspirated engine. Porsche seems to have done so with their flat-6 turbos. Others use synthesized sound thru the vehicles speakers.
Naturally Aspirated Six Cylinder Engine Notes I Adored:
(1) Honda NSX Type R
(2) Porsche GT Cars (996, 997 & 991 GT3 and GT3 RS as well as the Cayman GT4).
(3) BMW In-line 6 powerplants
Four cylinder Engine Notes I Adore:
(1) Honda Integra Type R
(2) Honda S2000
(3) Toyota Celica GT-S
None of either listing is in any particular order.
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Personally I think you are making a "lightweight" distinction without much difference. 200 lbs less than a Mustang isn't lightweight, while a difference in weight distribution and suspension can make different car models feel much heavier or lighter than they are.
Have you driven a Miata or BRZ?
Miata, yes.
3000lbs is "light enough" for me. But there aren't many RWD or AWD cars that weight that and have at least 300 hp or even sound good and have less.
Why cant we have a RWD 3k lb car with a 3.0 - 4.0 L engine with just 300 hp that sounds good? That isnt asking for much. Yet, it is.
Why does lightweight matter? My cars have been 3400 lbs and up for about 12 years now. Would like to have something lighter.
But still sound great.
Seems like the best-sounding non-v8 cars are the horizontally opposed engines. In my price range we're talking about STI's. Too many doors and not nice to look at though.
Or maybe I'll end up with a C6 Corvette. Hell the 'vette is lighter and gets better mpg than the 4 cyl Subaru's...insurance is less, too.Do you mind sharing what your price range is?
We've been thinking of getting a 911 for a long time (well, I have any way :) ) probably won't happen till the wife goes back to work full time in a few years.
Will likely be looking at either mid 80s or early 2000s car. The later air cooled ones can get pretty expensive as someone mentioned. Some don't like the early 2000s, 996s as they look similar to the boxters, but I still like them and they can be found pretty reasonably prices.
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militarymoron
12-10-19, 17:10
Are you guys talking about true engine sound vs exhaust note?
CAMagnussen
12-10-19, 17:17
You guys are actually at all interested in what your car's engine sounds like? Geebus. Grow up.
The_War_Wagon
12-10-19, 17:21
You guys are actually at all interested in what your car's engine sounds like? Geebus. Grow up.
Fartmobile gotta fart... :rolleyes:
You guys are actually at all interested in what your car's engine sounds like? Geebus. Grow up.
Your not a "car guy". This thread isnt for you.
Are you guys talking about true engine sound vs exhaust note?
Both, but mainly exhaust note.
Do you mind sharing what your price range is?
We've been thinking of getting a 911 for a long time (well, I have any way :) ) probably won't happen till the wife goes back to work full time in a few years.
Will likely be looking at either mid 80s or early 2000s car. The later air cooled ones can get pretty expensive as someone mentioned. Some don't like the early 2000s, 996s as they look similar to the boxters, but I still like them and they can be found pretty reasonably prices.
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Depends if I sell what I have. Under $30k. Yea I'm looking used.
Both, but mainly exhaust note.
Believe it or not... MOST of the sound you hear (and adore) is the INTAKE.
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It’s a COMBINATION of:
1 - Intake Sound Source
2 - Exhaust Sound Source
3 - Acoustic Transfer Function (between air intake and cabin and tailpipe and cabin).
Most of, if not ALL, Euro sports cars are predominantly air intake that you hear INSIDE the vehicle - or at least what we identify as “powerful” while accelerating heavily is due to the air induction portion of the combo mentioned above.
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My best friend had a BMW 335i for a while. Sounded pretty nice, a little muffled because of the turbos, and was pretty quick. It would walk my G37 without issue.
Believe it or not... MOST of the sound you hear (and adore) is the INTAKE.
Hell, I keep mine in tour around town & ride the supercharger whine rpm window to the very edge before the exhaust opens up & drowns it out...limited as my hearing is, I enjoy the whistling of that little eaton SC wind up & she goes away if the girl wants more 02 & the sport/track exhaust opens up...must be nice to be young. Bout the only way I can tune into & enjoy my RUSH spotify station is with the car in tour but I love playing the giddy-up & trying to keep her quiet.
Again, finding an appealing 4/6cyl song is much more difficult & there is such a variety of HP out there...you want a fun short track car then the miata is a great choice. It can smoke my heavy 650hp on most shorter x-crosses & mini tracks but chase the car for her performance & nature of the application you want & not the tone. That can be found later so focus on the driving experience you desire as your primary. I'm not calling you out as not acknowledging as you clearly understand the HP / weight / car enthusiast. I just wanted to tie the intake note you mentioned to the sound I appreciate & most want to drown out.
Hell, I keep mine in tour around town & ride the supercharger whine rpm window to the very edge before the exhaust opens up & drowns it out...limited as my hearing is, I enjoy the whistling of that little eaton SC wind up & she goes away if the girl wants more 02 & the sport/track exhaust opens up...must be nice to be young. Bout the only way I can tune into & enjoy my RUSH spotify station is with the car in tour but I love playing the giddy-up & trying to keep her quiet.
Again, finding an appealing 4/6cyl song is much more difficult & there is such a variety of HP out there...you want a fun short track car then the miata is a great choice. It can smoke my heavy 650hp on most shorter x-crosses & mini tracks but chase the car for her performance & nature of the application you want & not the tone. That can be found later so focus on the driving experience you desire as your primary. I'm not calling you out as not acknowledging as you clearly understand the HP / weight / car enthusiast. I just wanted to tie the intake note you mentioned to the sound I appreciate & most want to drown out.
Oh, I’m intimately aware of performance cars and their application.
Usually, sports cars sound good. Some sound better than others.
What a person professes to like will depend on many things - most will be subjective.
Without digging deeply one must have strong firing order and it’s harmonics in the sound spectrum. It’s some of the 1/2 orders that give you the “rumbling” or “powerful” sounds - even at idle. It sounds great. But so do the flat plane Ferrari V8s which have none of those half orders. In fact, it sounds just like what it is: two inline four cylinder engines, albeit two DELICIOUS sounding ones.
There’s a LOT that goes into Sound Quality and I miss that work.
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TheAlsatian
12-11-19, 08:23
Do you mind sharing what your price range is?
We've been thinking of getting a 911 for a long time (well, I have any way :) ) probably won't happen till the wife goes back to work full time in a few years.
Will likely be looking at either mid 80s or early 2000s car. The later air cooled ones can get pretty expensive as someone mentioned. Some don't like the early 2000s, 996s as they look similar to the boxters, but I still like them and they can be found pretty reasonably prices.
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I have had a 99 model 911 for a dozen years now. IMHO it is the best year for the early 996s. Mechanical throttle control and the car is a bit smaller, more true to the air cooled models. It also has a more durable IMS system. I've had zero problems with it over the years. I did sell my 77 air cooled 911, those things have gone up astronomically. It was a nice car, but not as fun to drive or as practical as the 996. Both sounded great (for you audiophiles..)
Little do you guys know that manufacturers tune the acoustics for that sound inside the cab in performance cars. Sometimes even supplementing it via audio (GM).
forget which model it was want to say it was a Chevy V8, the old trick was the turn the air cleaner shroud upside down so you could hear the air intake noise under full throttle.
Did not make a bit of performance difference but it sounded oh so cool.
As to preferences, six-cylinder 5.9l with a 5" stainless factory exhaust. Dodge got it right with the 3rd gen ram Cummins HO.
For my model year, all the aftermarket air & exhaust stuff just make it louder but did not increase performance as the factory did a decent job just start with.
As to the classic Porsche 911 sound, much of that is the nature of air cooled cylinder jugs with fins. (As heard in the beginning of Kraftwerk Autobahn).
My Pinzgauer has similar jug construction and sounds a lot like a Porsche 911 even though it's just a big (2.5l) slant 4.
I'm sure the water cooled Porsches have a different sound, just a lot of ringing and harmonics from the fins on the air cooled.
Little do you guys know that manufacturers tune the acoustics for that sound inside the cab in performance cars. Sometimes even supplementing it via audio (GM).
.
Oh, we know, but thanks.
Yea, Porshes usually sound very good. As do other performers-oriented horizontally-opposed engines like those from Subaru.
Adrenaline_6
12-11-19, 14:42
Sounding good on the inside doesn't necessarily translate to sounding good from the outside. Some do both. Sixes and fours have a harder time.
Being at the Rolex 24 for awhile will change your tune about Porsches and how good they sound.
I have had a 99 model 911 for a dozen years now. IMHO it is the best year for the early 996s. Mechanical throttle control and the car is a bit smaller, more true to the air cooled models. It also has a more durable IMS system. I've had zero problems with it over the years. I did sell my 77 air cooled 911, those things have gone up astronomically. It was a nice car, but not as fun to drive or as practical as the 996. Both sounded great (for you audiophiles..)Thanks for the info.
I've driven an 87, and a 2000 that my brother owned. He still has the 87, got the 2000 while rebuilding the 87 (complete teardown of the engine), he was thinking of selling the 87 thinking he and his wife would get more use out of the newer car. But she never really did. After putting the work into the 87 he ended up keeping that one instead.
Mostly he uses it for track days here and there and an occasional day out.
I did get to do a few laps around the road course at NHMS in his 87. Not at any crazy speeds but was still fun none the less. Also go to drive from NH down to Lime Rock and back once when my bro did a track day in the 2000.
I did own a 951 for a while along time ago and had to sell it when in between jobs. While I liked it I think I'll still hold out for some kind of 911 someday.
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Being at the Rolex 24 for awhile will change your tune about Porsches and how good they sound.
In what way? Grew annoying or likes other cars more?
Never been to the Role 24 but been to ALMS races at Lime Rock in CT and went to the 12h at Sebring once.
Was into that stuff more 10-15 years ago.
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Never once has the sound a car makes, or the weight, ever been a factor in my decision. Interesting...
Size, reliability, performance, features, fuel economy, appearance even, but never sound or weight.
With your weight, and budget limits you're going to have to go older. Mostly because of your weight limit, modern cars are heavy.
Never once has the sound a car makes, or the weight, ever been a factor in my decision. Interesting...
Size, reliability, performance, features, fuel economy, appearance even, but never sound or weight.
Again, if you're not an automotive performance enthusiast, you wont understand.
Its akin to saying, "why do you need a gun with all of those modifications? I have a s&w Bodyguard, a Ruger P89, and a pump 12 guage. I just shoot them and they do everything I need guns to do."
That guy just isnt going to understand a $2500 firearm.
Never once has the sound a car makes, or the weight, ever been a factor in my decision. Interesting...
Size, reliability, performance, features, fuel economy, appearance even, but never sound or weight.
Weight and Performance are inversely proportional to one another.
Size plays a role if you like fast backroad travel, too.
Fuel economy TYPICALLY is inversely proportional to performance as well.
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Adrenaline_6
12-11-19, 22:06
In what way? Grew annoying or likes other cars more?
Both. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way knocking their performance...but that wasn't really the topic.
Again, if you're not an automotive performance enthusiast, you wont understand.
Its akin to saying, "why do you need a gun with all of those modifications? I have a s&w Bodyguard, a Ruger P89, and a pump 12 guage. I just shoot them and they do everything I need guns to do."
That guy just isnt going to understand a $2500 firearm.
I am a performance enthusiast. I just don't understand what the sound has to do with performance. Like wise, weight doesn't matter, unless your looking at the exact same horsepower and torque specs in two vehicles of different weights. The Chevy Spark is under your weight limit, but its power to weight ratio is not what you are looking for.
I'm just trying to explain my curiosity at why the sound would matter. I find it more akin to saying "Which of these guns sounds the best when I fire it?"
Changing the subject back to your original question. I once stood next to a 2003 Aston Martin Vanquish when they fired it up. That was the most amazing sound I've ever heard come out of a muffler. That car truly purred. Its double or triple the number of cylinders in your original question, but the sound was so impressive, I thought it worth mentioning on a car thread about sound.
You guys are actually at all interested in what your car's engine sounds like? Geebus. Grow up.
I’ve noticed something since you joined here, you’re really critical of a lot of things.
My contribution is Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel.
What? It’s a 6 cylinder! :cool:
I love the way they sound.
I am a performance enthusiast. I just don't understand what the sound has to do with performance. Like wise, weight doesn't matter, unless your looking at the exact same horsepower and torque specs in two vehicles of different weights. The Chevy Spark is under your weight limit, but its power to weight ratio is not what you are looking for.
I'm just trying to explain my curiosity at why the sound would matter. I find it more akin to saying "Which of these guns sounds the best when I fire it?"
Changing the subject back to your original question. I once stood next to a 2003 Aston Martin Vanquish when they fired it up. That was the most amazing sound I've ever heard come out of a muffler. That car truly purred. Its double or triple the number of cylinders in your original question, but the sound was so impressive, I thought it worth mentioning on a car thread about sound.
Some people, like me, also like our cars to handle and brake well....doth or which are definitely affected by how much the car weighs.
Have aftermarket exhaust systems been banned without my knowledge?
militarymoron
12-12-19, 14:47
I'm just trying to explain my curiosity at why the sound would matter. I find it more akin to saying "Which of these guns sounds the best when I fire it?"
It because of what we've been conditioned to associate with the sound, and that applies to many things. Using a gun example, which gun sound elicits more excitement to the gun enthusiast - a .22 plinking or a long burst from a minigun? Through our experiences and exposure to different mechanical sounds, we associate certain attributes of the machine by its sound. In general terms, you can discern the performance of an engine from the sound that it makes, because the sound helps you identify what the engine is.
When it comes to buying an every day commuter car or family car, less noise inside the cabin is my preference. But if it's a performance car, then there are certain criteria that some want that fit that idea of 'performance'. If a big truck had a sound like a go-kart, or if you saw a Ferrari drive by that sounded like a 4-banger with fart can, it would seem incongruous, like a big, tall man with a squeaky, high-pitched voice.
A car's color has nothing to do with performance (whereas sounds is related to an engine's performance), but it's typically high up on the list of attributes that a car buyer considers.
Unless you're a professional race driver, and are spending your own money on a car, then I would say that all aspects would be of some importance whether they're purely performance-related or aesthetic/personal preference. There's nothing wrong with wanting a car that sounds pleasing to your ear. There's pure performance, and then there's performance with style. Neither is right nor wrong.
Deleted as the OP should do whatever makes him happy.
Sound can be of importance. After doing heads and cam on my LS1 TA, the exhaust got a horrible drone at 1900RPM. Changing the exhaust would change the note, making driving more pleasurable.
Sound can be of importance. After doing heads and cam on my LS1 TA, the exhaust got a horrible drone at 1900RPM. Changing the exhaust would change the note, making driving more pleasurable.Survived and hated some flowmasters that were the worst drone of anything I've ever heard of. And they were the mild ones.
Found a take off factory exhaust and put it on.
Next we can all talk about our favorite car in terms of tip in response. Another area manufacturers game, same engine, same performance, same everything but they changed the tip in response and the people think it's faster. Where in fact the only thing that changed was fuel mileage.
Drove one Toyota based econo box made for boy racers that the tip n was so nonlinear it was almost impossible to start from a dead stop without scratching the tires.
Adrenaline_6
12-13-19, 09:10
Survived and hated some flowmasters that were the worst drone of anything I've ever heard of. And they were the mild ones.
Found a take off factory exhaust and put it on.
Next we can all talk about our favorite car in terms of tip in response. Another area manufacturers game, same engine, same performance, same everything but they changed the tip in response and the people think it's faster. Where in fact the only thing that changed was fuel mileage.
Drove one Toyota based econo box made for boy racers that the tip n was so nonlinear it was almost impossible to start from a dead stop without scratching the tires.
I loved the sound of Flowmasters on my 69 Camaro and Monte Carlo SS. AT low RPM they had kind of a drone, but at WOT sounded wild and pure. They were true dual exhausts though with Hooker race headers. Not sure what you had. The low sound growl sound to me is infinitely more preferable than a high buzzing sound. A Ferrari and Lambo sound still qualifies as a growl and not buzzy....just higher up the rev counter. To each their own I guess.
I loved the sound of Flowmasters on my 69 Camaro and Monte Carlo SS. AT low RPM they had kind of a drone, but at WOT sounded wild and pure. They were true dual exhausts though with Hooker race headers. Not sure what you had. The low sound growl sound to me is infinitely more preferable than a high buzzing sound. A Ferrari and Lambo sound still qualifies as a growl and not buzzy....just higher up the rev counter. To each their own I guess.
On a Camaro with low interior volume the "growl" might be fun.
I bought a Suburban that had been nicely tricked out, but one of the tricks was 'Cherry Bomb' mufflers.
So I thought I'd go with the mild flowmaster. The "Growl" with the interior volume of the 'burb led to very bad droning/resonance.
Which is a regular complaint on the flowmasters. And has something to do with their construction, there are other low back-pressure mufflers that are not as bad. Some folks correct the drone by adding mass to the can with welded weights.
What works on race car, or even lightly driven muscle car can be a grind in a daily driver.
I'm all for performance mods that increase performance. And hate mods done just to make noise. Open pipes on harleys come to mind. As do buzzy rice boxes boy racers with tiny engines and loud exhausts. And often, big wings.
My contribution is Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel.
What? It’s a 6 cylinder! :cool:
I love the way they sound.
Mentioned earlier, so there are two of us.
Glug-glug-glug-glug...
had a two cylinder diesel Kubota, love the thump-thump-thump sound it had.
Drove one Toyota based econo box made for boy racers that the tip n was so nonlinear it was almost impossible to start from a dead stop without scratching the tires.
Electronic throttles aren't something that I think ever needed to actually ever be a thing...
Well if you have a fuel injected car you got to have it in some aspects
Used to be the mechanical linkage set the tip in response.
Then with fuel injection the "throttle position sensor" pot was linear. It really only controls your acceleration shot, the main control for the engine was the throttle body butterfly.
Which can again be artificially manipulated with the linkage, but in most vehicles was fairly linear. Which you want because the air flow through the butterfly is exponential
Most people don't understand it but unless your throttle body is a restriction under full power, bigger throttle bodies just goof up the tip in response. Make it harder to get a smooth acceleration from idle. But the artifact of that has become desirable in some circles.
"Man, this thing is hot off the line!"
No it's not.
Adrenaline_6
12-13-19, 11:11
Electronic throttles aren't something that I think ever needed to actually ever be a thing...
All the sportbikes are throttle by wire. They were glitchy in it's infancy. They have since been ironed out. Now you can easily pick multiple throttle mapping depending on road conditions, preference, racing experience, etc, along with preferred levels of traction control and wheelie control.
Adrenaline_6
12-13-19, 11:19
On a Camaro with low interior volume the "growl" might be fun.
I bought a Suburban that had been nicely tricked out, but one of the tricks was 'Cherry Bomb' mufflers.
So I thought I'd go with the mild flowmaster. The "Growl" with the interior volume of the 'burb led to very bad droning/resonance.
Which is a regular complaint on the flowmasters. And has something to do with their construction, there are other low back-pressure mufflers that are not as bad. Some folks correct the drone by adding mass to the can with welded weights.
What works on race car, or even lightly driven muscle car can be a grind in a daily driver.
I'm all for performance mods that increase performance. And hate mods done just to make noise. Open pipes on harleys come to mind. As do buzzy rice boxes boy racers with tiny engines and loud exhausts. And often, big wings.
I got ya. I was a lot younger then. I loved the sound, even though I drove those daily. Now, they probably would be a bit loud and not a daily driver. The Camaro had a .525 lift, 294 advertised duration solid lifter cam and 12:1 compression.
My contribution is Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel.
What? It’s a 6 cylinder! :cool:
I love the way they sound.
Hmm...now I'd like to see one mid-mounted in a car. 😁
Well if you have a fuel injected car you got to have it in some aspects
Used to be the mechanical linkage set the tip in response.
Then with fuel injection the "throttle position sensor" pot was linear. It really only controls your acceleration shot, the main control for the engine was the throttle body butterfly.
Which can again be artificially manipulated with the linkage, but in most vehicles was fairly linear. Which you want because the air flow through the butterfly is exponential
Most people don't understand it but unless your throttle body is a restriction under full power, bigger throttle bodies just goof up the tip in response. Make it harder to get a smooth acceleration from idle. But the artifact of that has become desirable in some circles.
"Man, this thing is hot off the line!"
No it's not.
Too big a throttle body is like too big of a carburetor. Bad.
All the sportbikes are throttle by wire. They were glitchy in it's infancy. They have since been ironed out. Now you can easily pick multiple throttle mapping depending on road conditions, preference, racing experience, etc, along with preferred levels of traction control and wheelie control.
Cars and trucks are all TBW now, too.
Survived and hated some flowmasters that were the worst drone of anything I've ever heard of. And they were the mild ones.
Found a take off factory exhaust and put it on.
Next we can all talk about our favorite car in terms of tip in response. .
I like Flowmasters! Especially the original 40 series. They do best with a manual transmission or auto with a lot of gears and full manual control to avoid the drone-zones. (Seem to be 1800-2100 and 2700-2900 rpm)
There are probably Helmholz compensators that could clear it up. (Aka resonators)
I like the downshift burbles and pops common to Flowmasters.
They are available in stainless steel now for only $10 more. ($75-$85)
Tip-in response? Yea it really varies these days. Just have to get used to it. Some cars it's quite silly. "Man, this car moves out, I'm only at 60% throttle!" Then you put it to the floor and find out there isnt much more. You were already at 95% throttle because the throttle mapping lies. 😕
4-cyl: 4G63/SR20DET
6-cyl: RB26/2JZ
Yea...not familiar. Mazda?
Mitsubishi/Nissan
Nissan/Toyota
Partial to the 4G63T myself... see username.
ETA - For a four, I've always been a fan of the 420A, especially when it's screaming over 8k. Not a bad tone, for a Honda.
Never once has the sound a car makes, or the weight, ever been a factor in my decision. Interesting...
Size, reliability, performance, features, fuel economy, appearance even, but never sound or weight.
Again, if you're not an automotive performance enthusiast, you wont understand.
Its akin to saying, "why do you need a gun with all of those modifications? I have a s&w Bodyguard, a Ruger P89, and a pump 12 guage. I just shoot them and they do everything I need guns to do."
That guy just isnt going to understand a $2500 firearm.
Exactly. If I have to explain it to you, you'll never understand.
I am a performance enthusiast. I just don't understand what the sound has to do with performance. Like wise, weight doesn't matter, unless your looking at the exact same horsepower and torque specs in two vehicles of different weights. The Chevy Spark is under your weight limit, but its power to weight ratio is not what you are looking for.
I'm just trying to explain my curiosity at why the sound would matter. I find it more akin to saying "Which of these guns sounds the best when I fire it?"
Changing the subject back to your original question. I once stood next to a 2003 Aston Martin Vanquish when they fired it up. That was the most amazing sound I've ever heard come out of a muffler. That car truly purred. Its double or triple the number of cylinders in your original question, but the sound was so impressive, I thought it worth mentioning on a car thread about sound.
Couldn't disagree more. Weight effects EVERY aspect of a car, especially when you're dealing with performance. It effects the car's ability to accelerate, brake, and turn. There's a reason performance car companies squeeze ounces at a time out.
Maybe I misunderstood what you said.
Maybe I misunderstood what you said.
I think you missed the "unless..." part.
Worded another way: Say hypothetically, I was deciding between a Corvette or a Porsche. The weight of either wouldn't matter to me. I would look at the performance specs. 0-60, 60-0, 1/4 mile times, and lap times with comparable drivers on the same track on the same day. While weight is obviously a factor in how either car will perform, I'd be looking at performance of the overall car, and not the number on the scale.
Does that make more sense? Lap times and performance matter. The actual weight doesn't. Not to me anyway.
CAMagnussen
12-14-19, 15:35
Car engine sounds.
Even if a heavier car makes better numbers (re: handling) the lighter one will feel more fun at lower speeds assuming it has good handling characteristics.
I am a performance enthusiast. I just don't understand what the sound has to do with performance. Like wise, weight doesn't matter, unless your looking at the exact same horsepower and torque specs in two vehicles of different weights. The Chevy Spark is under your weight limit, but its power to weight ratio is not what you are looking for.
I'm just trying to explain my curiosity at why the sound would matter. I find it more akin to saying "Which of these guns sounds the best when I fire it?"
Changing the subject back to your original question. I once stood next to a 2003 Aston Martin Vanquish when they fired it up. That was the most amazing sound I've ever heard come out of a muffler. That car truly purred. Its double or triple the number of cylinders in your original question, but the sound was so impressive, I thought it worth mentioning on a car thread about sound.
You do not get it because you really are not as much a car guy as you believe.
It’s about sensory excitement.
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Survived and hated some flowmasters that were the worst drone of anything I've ever heard of. And they were the mild ones.
Found a take off factory exhaust and put it on.
Next we can all talk about our favorite car in terms of tip in response. Another area manufacturers game, same engine, same performance, same everything but they changed the tip in response and the people think it's faster. Where in fact the only thing that changed was fuel mileage.
Drove one Toyota based econo box made for boy racers that the tip n was so nonlinear it was almost impossible to start from a dead stop without scratching the tires.
Porsche would beg to differ with the engines that go into their GT3 cars. Well, let me rephrase all of that... the 911 Carrera 3.0 RS had the same engine as the 3.0 L Carrera but Porsche essentially balanced and blueprinted it. Yet they claim it still had 231 bhp. (Yes, this was a long time ago). It was marginally quicker everywhere - and markedly so on throttle response.
I’ll say this: 99.999% of us who own sports cars cannot extract 75 percent of the capability of the car. If you think about it it really makes sense.
So what would I need with a Porsche 911 GT2 RS?
Not a damned thing.
If I fell into a $500M lottery win I would consider one but I know a Cayman GT4 would be the better purchase: handling, steering, throttle response and sound quality.
If I were still at Ford I’d push to pull weight out of the Mustang platform. I’d want the same brakes and suspension of the GT on one of the V6 cars and I’d take a good look at the air induction and exhaust to modify the Sound Quality.
It would sell like hot cakes.
Why?
Because we cannot use the power but we can play with the handling and it’s ALL perception!
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On a Camaro with low interior volume the "growl" might be fun.
I bought a Suburban that had been nicely tricked out, but one of the tricks was 'Cherry Bomb' mufflers.
So I thought I'd go with the mild flowmaster. The "Growl" with the interior volume of the 'burb led to very bad droning/resonance.
Which is a regular complaint on the flowmasters. And has something to do with their construction, there are other low back-pressure mufflers that are not as bad. Some folks correct the drone by adding mass to the can with welded weights.
What works on race car, or even lightly driven muscle car can be a grind in a daily driver.
I'm all for performance mods that increase performance. And hate mods done just to make noise. Open pipes on harleys come to mind. As do buzzy rice boxes boy racers with tiny engines and loud exhausts. And often, big wings.
What you describe is the vehicle body acoustic mode.
Each section of the exhaust has an acoustic resonance. We add expansion chambers (resonators, mufflers) to break up the low frequency “boom” that you perceive.
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Electronic throttles aren't something that I think ever needed to actually ever be a thing...
If you want to fully exploit the Vehicle Dynamics software (something damned few have the skills to safely approach the limits of anyway) you would want the steering position, throttle position, brake torque, engine torque/engine load, gear selected, yaw, pitch, roll, shock absorber load or the displacement of the piston in the shock absorber.
While that car will be potentially much easier to drive at the limit you and I could not fully exploit it anyway.
BTW, Ferrari has the best Vehicle Dynamics Software Package.
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I think you missed the "unless..." part.
Worded another way: Say hypothetically, I was deciding between a Corvette or a Porsche. The weight of either wouldn't matter to me. I would look at the performance specs. 0-60, 60-0, 1/4 mile times, and lap times with comparable drivers on the same track on the same day. While weight is obviously a factor in how either car will perform, I'd be looking at performance of the overall car, and not the number on the scale.
Does that make more sense? Lap times and performance matter. The actual weight doesn't. Not to me anyway.
Weight ALWAYS matter - especially if you’re talking bout doing laps for time: Tire wear, brake temps...
Also, a heavier car will FEEL heavier; it will not FEEL as nimble and it may not be as nimble.
Those are the facts.
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big difference with two different engines where one is blue printed and balance yet nominally is the rated same horsepower.
What I'm talking about is they take the engine out of a Camry, put it in an Xb, change the tip in response, and all the boy racers think it's faster. Add a buzzy exhaust with 5-inch swollen tips and you're in business.
It's a common amateur fuel injection tuning mistake to oversize the throttle bodies, which gives you an exaggerated tip-in response. But has no effect on power.
Mentioned earlier, so there are two of us.
Glug-glug-glug-glug...
had a two cylinder diesel Kubota, love the thump-thump-thump sound it had.
Dude, what about 1st Gen Dodges (89-93 for you uncircumcised heathens)?!?! That rattle and throaty drOne are amazing.
Hmm...now I'd like to see one mid-mounted in a car. 😁
Bro it has probably been done! 5.9s are everywhere now.
Adrenaline_6
12-15-19, 20:13
If you want to fully exploit the Vehicle Dynamics software (something damned few have the skills to safely approach the limits of anyway) you would want the steering position, throttle position, brake torque, engine torque/engine load, gear selected, yaw, pitch, roll, shock absorber load or the displacement of the piston in the shock absorber.
While that car will be potentially much easier to drive at the limit you and I could not fully exploit it anyway.
BTW, Ferrari has the best Vehicle Dynamics Software Package.
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Ducati and Aprilia has the better Sportbike ABS and Traction Control, wheelie control software packages, although the brains and sensors are all Bosch IMU's. It also takes into account lean angle (a more pronounced roll).
Ducati and Yamaha now are incorporating slide control which allows you to power out of the corner a little sideways but controlled so as not to allow a nasty highside. Power slides on 4 wheels is cool and fun...watching it done on 2 wheels, a whole new appreciation for that kind of skill.
Ron3, the car you seek is a Honda S2000. Get a model year 2003 if you can because they have the glass rear window and the 9k rpm 4-cylinder engine. It feels light and sounds great. Be careful though, there's no traction control. Also, if you can't drive stick, forget about it. They never made them with automatics. Here's mine the day I bought it in December of 2002. I still have it and it never gets old.
https://i.postimg.cc/bvJCN1jr/Me-in-S2000-at-Team-Honda-120702.jpg
Ron3, the car you seek is a Honda S2000. Get a model year 2003 if you can because they have the glass rear window and the 9k rpm 4-cylinder engine. It feels light and sounds great. Be careful though, there's no traction control. Also, if you can't drive stick, forget about it. They never made them with automatics. Here's mine the day I bought it in December of 2002. I still have it and it never gets old.
https://i.postimg.cc/bvJCN1jr/Me-in-S2000-at-Team-Honda-120702.jpg
I've driven one.
You might be right.
Although the lack of torque was amusing. Power curve starts at about 5500 rpm IIRC!
But yea, rwd, 240 hp, 6 spd.
The biggest problem? All convertibles. I dont want a convertible.
Otherwise what does the S2000 have on say, a new Fiat 124? I drove a new Abarth 124 and was impressed. A good S2000 and Fiat 124 are both going to be about $30k.
Low power of course, but being a Turbo the power was always there.
My buddy brought over his 30th anniversary special edition Miata yesterday and I got to drive it. It's a little more powerful and a little lighter weight than the normal model, plus other exclusive stuff. I think they did something with the gearing too because it definitely felt peppier at lower speeds than his 2014 and 2017(maybe 2018) models.
Long story short... check out the new MX5. They make a hard top model now too.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49235645261_d6ea811e28_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i1MxZx)20191216_102826 (https://flic.kr/p/2i1MxZx) by chase ditwiler (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157376915@N07/), on Flickr
I've driven one.
You might be right.
Although the lack of torque was amusing. Power curve starts at about 5500 rpm IIRC!
But yea, rwd, 240 hp, 6 spd.
The biggest problem? All convertibles. I dont want a convertible.
Otherwise what does the S2000 have on say, a new Fiat 124? I drove a new Abarth 124 and was impressed. A good S2000 and Fiat 124 are both going to be about $30k.
Low power of course, but being a Turbo the power was always there.
You can get a hard top for the Honda.
And you must be joking about comparing a Honda to a Fiat...
One is dead reliable and overbuilt the other... is a Fiat.
One is RWD the other is FWD.
The Honda is the decidedly quicker of the two on a road course.
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You can get a hard top for the Honda.
And you must be joking about comparing a Honda to a Fiat...
One is dead reliable and overbuilt the other... is a Fiat.
One is RWD the other is FWD.
The Honda is the decidedly quicker of the two on a road course.
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The Fiat 124 is a Miata with a Fiat motor, so it's a RWD car. It's also slower than a standard Miata so it's probably slower than a 10 year old S2000.
The Fiat 124 is a Miata with a Fiat motor, so it's a RWD car. It's also slower than a standard Miata so it's probably slower than a 10 year old S2000.
Yup. Same assembly line in Hiroshima.
Different engines and suspensions.
Known as the "Fiata". About 2600 lbs IIRC. 1.4L Turbo RWD. Bilstiens on the Abarth version. Less body roll, more torque, thicker top and windshield than the Mazda.
Not sure if it’s been stated, but the best sounding naturally aspirated 6 is the Porsche 911 991 GT3.
Not sure if it’s been stated, but the best sounding naturally aspirated 6 is the Porsche 911 991 GT3.
I’m a Porsche guy so... [emoji3059] but the Audi R8, the Ferrari V-12s and V-10 & V-12 Lambos ALL sound delicious.
That’s the great thing about GT Racing; you hear many of these on track.
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Not sure if it’s been stated, but the best sounding naturally aspirated 6 is the Porsche 911 991 GT3.
Yea, just might be.
I agree about those bigger NA engines, especially the R8/Huracan V10.
I just find it truly amazing that Porsche is able to squeeze those numbers and performance out of a NA 6. It's truly a marvel in my opinion.
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