View Full Version : best bolt gun
I am looking into getting a tactical bolt action rifle but am unsure what to get I will be doing some hunting but mostly punching paper. Half of my buddies say get the SPS Remington 700 and the other half say to get the Savage 10 FCP and I have had a few people tell me to get the Steyr SSG. Just looking for opinions on whats good right out of the box. Thanks!
uscbigdawg
11-18-08, 11:08
Comes down to how much do you want to spend. Without going too crazy, check out the Non-Typical Hunting Rifle (http://www.gaprecision.net/nontypical.html) from GA Precision (http://www.gaprecision.net/).
Rich
Jay Cunningham
11-18-08, 11:17
I am interested in this topic. I know next to nothing about bolt guns but my interest is growing. I am in the market for a "do it all" .308...
I think. ;)
You may want to further define best. Weight, durability, function, bullet selection, etc.
I define my wants as a rifle that is rugged, lightweight, will reach 2,700 fps with 175gr. SMK or 2850 fps with 155 scenars, and has a DBM.
I would say that a Remington or Surgeon s/a, 18"-20" rem. varmit contour barrel, Manners or McMillan Edge stock, with M5 BM sounds about right. I would let PAI, KMW, Surgeon, or GAP put it together. It should be very light and handy, but still put rounds downrange very well. Also I would get a silencer for it, nothing heavier than 24oz.
GAP and Surgeon have this type of rifle available as "factory packages", so the wait time should be very little.
If you want to do it the cheapest, get someone to blueprint an LTR and slap it in a AICS.
rodinal220
11-18-08, 12:17
If your looking for an entry level bolt gun the Remington 700P/PSS is hard to beat for the money.Out of the box they shoot .75 with Federal Gold Medal,less if your a hand loader and know the tricks of the trade.They are hard to beat for the money and have alot of aftermarket support.
The trigger can be tuned and is adjustable,its "usable"(4 lbs) out of the box but some still like a really light trigger.Recoil in .308 and .300 Win mag are manageable for most(I hunt elk with .375 H&H) and I like the fit of the HS Precision factory supplied stock.
I have no problems engaging hostile steel target out to 800(.308) with a Leupold MK4 M3.Farther with ammo that stays supersonic past 800.The .300 Win mag does even better if you need to shoot 1000-1200.
There are certainly more expensive options out there but the Remmi is hard to beat for the money and performance offered.
http://www.remingtonle.com/
The Best IMHO is an Accuracy International.
2nd would be a gun built on a Surgeon action.
3rd would be a GAP built on their Rock Receiver.
4th, GAP or other REM700 build, FN makes great guns, and Sako/Tika are great out-of-the-box guns.
What is your price range? It makes all the difference.
uscbigdawg
11-18-08, 15:00
FWIW, George Gardner (GA Precision) stocks over 300 barrels at any time and has his own action. He keeps in inventory McMillan, AI, et. al. stocks and so even on full blown custom builds, he can usually spin them out in less than 6 weeks.
You will find nothing better...although AI's are pretty damn sweet. :D
Rich
The AW is a great rifle but a little heavy for my tastes. A Surgeon reciever with the same profile barrel in a Manners or Mcmillan stock will be several pounds lighter.
In fact, a Surgeon Scalpel outfitted with a S&B 3-12, Harris bipod with a Rem Varmit profile barrel, and a TBA silencer will weigh the same as the bare AWP. It will also cost alot less.
If weight is not a concern, then I would concede the AW is one of the best choices out there.
Verbal Kint
11-18-08, 15:41
If your looking for an entry level bolt gun the Remington 700P/PSS is hard to beat for the money.
I agree. I've been eyeing one myself, lately.
Gentle Ben
11-18-08, 16:14
I was in the same position recently, and ended up getting a Steyr SSG-69 P2K.
Go on over to the Snipers hide. That said I started with a Remmy PSS in an HS stock moved on to an FN SPR then a GAP M24 now an AI.....it gets expensive:D Remember your glass should be as good as your Rifle for any serious application.
Don Robison
11-18-08, 21:14
I don't know that I would say best, but IMHO the Savage model 10 and older 110 police line are accurate and versatile. Barrel changes can be completed with a minimum of tools by the user and there are some quality stocks, triggers and optics mounts available for them.
Thanks for all your input the wife is paying for it for my x-mas present and she said that she would spend no more than $2,000 on it so i would like the best bolt rifle in that price range now what are my options??
uscbigdawg
11-18-08, 23:42
If you don't care for magazine fed, then picking up a Savage 110 or 10fp and then, new stock, trigger change, bolt/action work, good bases & rings (Badger) would do it.
As for glass, the rule is always, buy what you can on the rifle, take a loan out for glass. It is NEVER bad to spend more on your optics than you did on the rifle.
Rich
Gunfighter13
11-19-08, 03:25
Thanks for all your input the wife is paying for it for my x-mas present and she said that she would spend no more than $2,000 on it so i would like the best bolt rifle in that price range now what are my options??
For this amount of money I would say:
Remington 700 SPS Tactical 308
EGW base
EGW steel rings
Millett TRS-1 or Super Sniper or Falcon Scope
TI sling
Harris Bi-Pod
Lots of ammo
Will get you started and give you a sub 3/4 package.
There are a lot of fine choices when it comes to bolt guns. CZ-USA is another one worth considering. Fine rifles /superb quality and very accurate.
If you want a bolt gun out of the box that is good. Get about any gun mag. and order a service grade K98k Mauser from Mitchell Mauser. about 250.00 can not beat it with a stick I got 3 from Mitchell and thinking about getting a another collectors grade 399.00 match part. I have 4 other K98 I've pick up thru the years. Can't beat them ammo all around. You can buy ammo for hunting or reload. If you want it scoped get a long eye releaf scope and mount at the rear site.
Knowing the price range and weight consideration would help. But, in no particular order:
Armament Technology AT1-M24
A.I. A.W.
G.A. Precision: The Rock, Non typical Hunting or T.I.S. Rifles
I.B.A. Chandler Sniper
Scopes: Schmidt & Bender P.M. 2 Military 3-12X50MM or Nightforce 3-15X50MM
Sling: T.I. Quick Cuff.
Bipod: Harris B.R.M. with Pod Loc
Bottom metal, rings and one piece base: Badger Ordinance
I am sure you would be happy with any of the above, accuracy wise. If weight is a big factor for hunting use than go with one of the above lighter weight ones. Hope that helps.
Often times the difference between a $500. Savage and an exotic $3500. tactical rifle is less than a 1/4" at 100 yds. I've seen Georgia farm boys hit eggs at 500 yards with their Savages. Personally I'm not a fan because I don't like the barrel nut but the SOBs are shooters and in the unlikely event you get one that isn't, send it back and they'll make it right.
I beleive in life you get what you pay for.
Can the $500 rifle still stay within a 1/4" of the high end guns at 300 or 600 yds, how about 1,000 yds? Can the $500 non-hardened rifle do it in all weather conditions, all the time, under harsh field/combat conditions, or just from a benchrest?
I beleive in life you get what you pay for.
Can the $500 rifle still stay within a 1/4" of the high end guns at 300 or 600 yds, how about 1,000 yds? Can the $500 non-hardened rifle do it in all weather conditions, all the time, under harsh field/combat conditions, or just from a benchrest?
If they could, the would all cost $500...
I hope people don't event attempt to compare the AIAW to a Savage...there is no comparison.
FWIW, I'm a proud owner of a Savage 110LA, GAP "exotic" M700, and I DO NOT won an AI...but I want one.
Guys, the Thread title is: "BEST BOLT GUN" and he specified a 2K price range.
Please don't shit on the thread with "rednecks in Georgia shoot eggs at 500 with Savages" talk...or "I heard this is the best". Stick to personal experiences with rifles.
He wants advice on the best gun he can get for 2K.
Does your 2K include the scope too? If so that really narrows your choice.
See if your wife will let you add the scope later (good scope is at least $1,200-1,400).
Assuming the $2k does not include the scope, I would look into a R700 P.S.S. / L.T.R. for around $850 / $950, then send it to G.A.P. and have it worked; re-crown the muzzle, trigger job, bedding, B.O. one piece scope base, B.O. one piece steel trigger guard, polish the feed ramp, torque set all screws, re-paint the barrel channel, etc. You are still well under $2K.
Disclaimer: I do have personal experience with all four of the brands I previously suggested. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Assuming the $2k does not include the scope, I would look into a R700 P.S.S. / L.T.R. for around $850 / $950, then send it to G.A.P. and have it worked; re-crown the muzzle, trigger job, bedding, B.O. one piece scope base, B.O. one piece steel trigger guard, polish the feed ramp, torque set all screws, re-paint the barrel channel, etc. You are still well under $2K.
Disclaimer: I do have personal experience with all four of the brands I previously suggested. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
That's almost exactly what I was thinking. Except maybe shoot it 100-300 times before you send it to some one, just to make sure you can shoot almost as well as the weapon.
Remington 700P, will shoot under or at 1MOA- even a re-crown can get you 1/4 MOA better. Bedding is nice, if you can afford it get a stock with aluminum pillar bedding in it already- you will have a lot less settling.
Dave:
I have found that most shooters can not shoot to the fullest extent of a quality weapon system capability.
The A.I. A.W. is about ~$5,500 without the scope? That is a lot of cabbage;). It is a great S.W.S. and I especially like the side folding stock.:eek:
Dave:
I have found that most shooters can not shoot to the fullest extent of a quality weapon system capability.
The A.I. A.W. is about ~$5,500 without the scope? That is a lot of cabbage;). It is a great S.W.S. and I especially like the side folding stock.:eek:
I hear ya, I would just hate to see the guy spend money on upgrades if he can't shoot well to begin with. Training should be in order.
Yes, I had GAP build my gun around the AICS, the side folding design makes the packages so much smaller...it's the shiite.- my gun is on the first page of the Precision Bolt Gun Pic Thread if anyone wants to check it out.
It was just over 5K with the scope and 3 mags.
(Leupold to be replace by Nightforce soon).
Price does not include the scope
Guys, the Thread title is: "BEST BOLT GUN" and he specified a 2K price range.
Please don't shit on the thread with "rednecks in Georgia shoot eggs at 500 with Savages" talk...or "I heard this is the best". Stick to personal experiences with rifles.
He wants advice on the best gun he can get for 2K.
Does your 2K include the scope too? If so that really narrows your choice.
See if your wife will let you add the scope later (good scope is at least $1,200-1,400).
2K Price does not include optic. Now I have shot these guns before but not on a consistent basis that being said I am probably not very good. I have been researching with my local gun shop and they tell me that they can not get me any of the FN SPR's or the Law enforcement remingtons. They have a Savage 10 FCP w/McMillan stock new for 1,000.... Is that a deal? Will G.A.P work on Savages? Another question I had is it better to have a magazine or floor plate? I will post later if I have any other questions.. Thank You
I agree, training needs to be figured into the mix somewhere. We almost overlooked that.:eek:
uscbigdawg
11-19-08, 22:19
George works on anything.
Rich
... I would look into a R700 P.S.S. / L.T.R. for around $850 / $950, then send it to G.A.P. and have it worked; re-crown the muzzle, trigger job, bedding, B.O. one piece scope base, B.O. one piece steel trigger guard, polish the feed ramp, torque set all screws, re-paint the barrel channel, etc. ...
How would those Remington LE suggestions compare to the Remington 700 5R MilSpec? And forgive me as a bolt-gun noob, but who is G.A.P. and what is their website?
GA Precision Rifles.
http://www.gaprecision.net/
How would those Remington LE suggestions compare to the Remington 700 5R MilSpec? And forgive me as a bolt-gun noob, but who is G.A.P. and what is their website?
I have no direct experience with the 5R. From what I understand, it should be the same thing, but with a better barrel. If the difference in price was not to much for you, I would get it. Does it come with an H.S. precision stock?
I think the 5R does have an HS stock. Here's a review, from 2005, but still useful:
http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/Rem_M700_StainlessSpecial5RMilspec.asp
5R, I believe, is just harder which may equal stiffer barrel (by a fraction) and longer barrel life.
GA Precision Rifles.
http://www.gaprecision.net/
I love my GAP Rifle. It's worth every penny. The reason people spend $3,800+ on the rifle alone is because the accuracy and craftsmanship are guaranteed.
Remington stock rifles will shoot MOA or better, but they can not give you a real guarantee as it's a production rifle.
I researched rifles for 6-8 months before I put my order in with George at GAP, he built it exactly how I wanted and I have no regrets.
It will depend on how serious someone wants to be. Precision rifles require more "overhead" or peripheral spending than most rifles. From ammo, scopes, cleaning equipment, ect. all has to be higher end to get the most out of your weapon.
Gunfighter13
11-20-08, 16:14
If you have 2K to spend on the rifle only then go for a Rem 700 5R mil. No need to get a GAP or AI rifle for your first bolt gun. That will happen later. Get good Steel rings and base along with a good optic. S&B, Nightforce, or Leupold. Do the break-in. Get some training. Then get a high end gun like a GAP or AI. It's a lot better to be impressed with a low end gun that shoots better than you had expected, than being disapointed with a high end gun because your not getting the results that you think you should get for the money you have invested. Just me, it's your decision.
If you want a bolt gun out of the box that is good. Get about any gun mag. and order a service grade K98k Mauser from Mitchell Mauser. about 250.00 can not beat it with a stick I got 3 from Mitchell and thinking about getting a another collectors grade 399.00 match part. I have 4 other K98 I've pick up thru the years. Can't beat them ammo all around. You can buy ammo for hunting or reload. If you want it scoped get a long eye releaf scope and mount at the rear site.
Guys - Most of the posts in this thread are in line with the OP's question about tactical bolt guns, but a few are starting to drift. Let's keep the responses in line with the original question. Thanks.
ETA - The guys who have mentioned training are spot on. Regardless of what type of weapon you're getting - bolt gun, carbine, battle rifle, handgun, shotgun - training makes the difference between someone who can operate effectively with a gun, and someone who just owns some guns. Get good training - you'll never regret it, and you'll always be on the lookout for more...
MikeCLeonard
11-20-08, 21:42
I haven't heard a single mention of Tac-Ops rifles.
What does everyone think of those. Don't they have a .25 MOA guarantee at 100 yards?
I haven't heard a single mention of Tac-Ops rifles.
What does everyone think of those. Don't they have a .25 MOA guarantee at 100 yards?
They are fine from what I heard but they have a long wait list.
I doubt they have a 1/4MOA guarantee unless its chambered in .223- then it might be possible. It's impossible to have .25MOA at 100 yards when the bullet is .308...
Besides: I don't think Tac-Ops Rifles fit into the OP's price range....still staying on track.
Dave, those measures are center to center...
I saw no mention of an accuacy guarantee on their web site. Could someone provide the link, or quote to this fantastic guarantee. Does the weapon come with a shooter with it? I don't beleive most guys that I have seen are capable of 1/4 M.O.A. shooting. Is the gun only guaranteed out to 100 yds.? What are the groups like beyond 100 yds.
Razorhunter
11-23-08, 15:13
Assuming the $2k does not include the scope, I would look into a R700 P.S.S. / L.T.R. for around $850 / $950, .
.
Guys,
Been following this thread, and I've seen the "R700 PSS" mentioned a couple times in this thread already I think.
Now I've seen the 700P, but what is the "PSS" denoting? I've not seen "PSS" listed anywhere on Remingtons site.
Is this "PSS" possibly on the civvi site, and not on the LE site???? What does PSS mean?
Does the link below show the gun you guys have been referring to, or is this a totally different firearm??? Check it out.
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm
PSS.
Police Sniper System.:confused:
The one you linked is the right one. Maybe that is now politically incorrect.:eek:
DocMinster
11-23-08, 18:29
I am looking into getting a tactical bolt action rifle but am unsure what to get I will be doing some hunting but mostly punching paper. Half of my buddies say get the SPS Remington 700 and the other half say to get the Savage 10 FCP and I have had a few people tell me to get the Steyr SSG. Just looking for opinions on whats good right out of the box. Thanks!
If you are looking for a .308 I can recommend the H-S Precision Pro-Series 2000 HTR. Mine is a tack driver.
If you are intending to hunt with it it is a bit heavy BUT it is a all SS rifle... no worries about rust
Here is an article concerning the FBI's take on the HS vs. FN
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Precision+Pair
also remember if you will be punching paper to consider a heavier barrel vs a "light barrel" (ie Remington 700 LTR) as the heat from a high power rifle will effect multiple follow up shots.
Good luck and let us know what you decide on
I'd have to say that for the money the FN SPRA3G (now called the SPR A5M) would be very difficult to match - much less beat.
Factory guarantee on accuracy (0.5 MOA for the life of the rifle).
I had a Steyr SSG PIIK that would shoot around 1/4 MOA (0.23 inch three shot groups center-to-center) on occasion. It never shot over 0.6 inches center-to-center at 100 yards. The average was about 1/2 inch. I've shot five of them (both PII and PIIK models) and none of them shot over 0.75 inches.
Toten Kopf
12-17-08, 01:59
************end of line
In reading all these posts about rifles and group size, how many rounds are used to form the "group"?
To me a 10 round group is minimal, if the rifle can't hold a close group shooting 10 rounds something is wrong. Many rifle builders use a 3 or 5 shot group to show how well their rifles are made but try the same rifle shooting 10 shots, well, you just don't see that.
Now I'm not saying that all rifles listed cannot shoot a small 10 shot group but using 10 shots really weeds out the ones that can't.
Just my .02 cents.
I personally think 5 round groups should be the standard when using factory ammo. If you are reloading and have lot's of experience, then I could see 10 round groups.
I think after 5 rounds, most groups will suffer from the human error.
There are a couple of route's you can go. Get a Savage and upgrade the stock for the budget concious person that wants a tool that shoots but doesnt care about looks. A Remington 700 Varmint and stick a couple of grand into having the barreled action trued, bluprinted and re stocked. A factory SAKO Varmint rifle that will shoot .25" groups out of the box. I went the SAKO route and never looked back. My 75 will shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yds with handloads. The rifle is only half the equasion glass and mounts play a big part. A SAVAGE with a proper stock, trigger tuned properly with a Nightforce scope will come in under your $2000 limit and probably shoot as well if not better than a $2000 custom Remington.
Toten Kopf
12-17-08, 02:23
***********end of line
Gents - no harm done, but let's keep this thread focused on rifles, and not on the merits of a particular group size for accuracy standards.
My vote is the FN SPR. You get alot more out of the box than a Remington. Most of the previous posts result in " Get a Remmy, chuck the stock, get a rail, toss this..."
The SPR comes in a McMillan stock, hammer forged barrel, NEAR or OPS rail, depending on age.
If you buy a 700 then a McMillan stock, you have passed the MSRP of a stock SPR with the stock, and you end up with a factory Remington stock nobody wants...waste of money, not to mention the 6-8 month wait on the stock.
You have to possess the knowledge to shoot any of the mentioned rifles accurately with any consistency. Rem 700, FN SPR, AI, GAP, doesn't matter if you don't have the know-how.
Custom builds have their place if you are in the market to spend that and are proficient enough.
To meet your <$2000 tag, SPR, save the left over for the glass. You can work into a GAP later if you get the fever.
I'd have to say that for the money the FN SPRA3G (now called the SPR A5M) would be very difficult to match - much less beat.
Still called the A3G, the A5M is a completely different animal.
I understand your comment but don't necessarily agree.
If you "tire out" after 10 shots, you need to be doing something else besides shooting a rifle. Perhaps, bowling...:D
I mean were talking about shooting 10 shots for group size for a given firearm, not a tactical run.
Look at it this way, if your job is to "shoot to verify" the 1/2 MOA group of over 50 rifles in the performance of your daily duties, to include a full 40+ hours of regular office stuff, plus travel, add in the weather and unforseen factors. So you have maybe 3 days to actually get to verify the rifles. Fed GMM 168 per factory spec.
50 x 10 rounds, (If you are PERFECT and group all 10 @ 1/2 MOA) 500 rounds.
say you get to round 7 or 8 maybe on the first rifle, you yak one out of the group, now you start over at 0. You are perfect the next 10, now the round count on a customers rifle is at 18, and you move on to gun 2. That could easily turn into a 700 round 3 days to do it 50 times with perfection, taking phone calls, daily duties as assigned, pain in the ass, not as easy as one may think.
See how that can be compounding in a hell of a hurry?
3 rounds per the requirement on 50 guns, easier to prove that the rifle can shoot, most all of those a qualified in under 5.
TacticalIntervention
12-18-08, 00:17
Toten we agree I do ten round groups to see how true the action bbl fit truly is. If it holds ten shots, after heating up I know things are right.
Many shooters have trouble concentrating for ten rounds though and thats why the makers say three or five round groups
As to Tacops, they have the .25moa thing and I will know soon if it holds true LOL. Well actually the ones I have seen on my line have held .25moa. I ordered one awhile back and its supposed to be to me before Christmas so I will see how it does with ten round groups
I went thru the usual progession PSS, SPR, GAP then an AI........ expensive without the glass but addictive. I think an AI is tough to beat.
I went thru the usual progession PSS, SPR, GAP then an AI........ expensive without the glass but addictive. I think an AI is tough to beat.
I skipped right to the GAP...oh how I covet an AI!
(my GAP build has an AICS 2.0 to keep me calm)
while not the very best the Remington 700 5R is the biggest bang for the buck ,under $1000.00 . with propper glass and pratice you can get 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups if your any good . for a factory rifle at under $1000.00 nothing I have seen beats it . :D if you have the cash a custom rifle is always nice AI,GAP,ect but the Remington 700 5R is a great place to start ,and if and when you want to upgrade they have a great resale value .:D
you can get 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups if your any good
There is no doubt the 5R is a decent gun, I have one. But it is not a consistent .25 MOA rifle.
Mine is a consistent .5 - .7 MOA rifle, and that's just fine for a factory gun.
never said constantant 1/4 inch ,said 1/4 to 1/2 inch and I have seen one do 1/4 with a Timney trigger ,bedding,and a Nightforce scope .:D
never said constantant 1/4 inch ,said 1/4 to 1/2 inch
Eeeking out a good group here and there isn't really worth mentioning, unless consistency is present.
Mine is bedded in a stock, specifically a Manners T4, and has a NF on it.
I'm not trying bust your chops or anything, but people looking to buy one need realistic expectations. They are a .5 - .75 MOA rifle, and regarded as good shooters .... but expecting to get much more will only lead to disappointment. If you get a great shooter (.5 or better) .... then be glad you have a keeper.
Hrmmm. Tac Ops Tango 51? For those who don't think that a .308 chambered tactical rifle is capable of having a 1/4 MOA guarantee and living up to it, than perhaps you had better re-think that one, or not make such a judgement until you have shot one.
We have 5 Tango's and 1 Delta. They all live up to what you hear about them. Now perhaps you are splitting hairs when you are talking a few grand for an extra 1/4 MOA or so, but since I didn't pay for the thing, I'll take the Tango, thank-you very much. In my many years, I have been behind just about every "tactical rifle". This Tango 51 is by far my favorite bolt gun.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/IMG_11511.jpg
For 2K, you can get quite a bit. Definitely not a Tango, but as far as "out of the box" goes, the Remingtons are good choices and there is some simple accurizing that can be done by anyone with half a brain and some simple skills to make some good accuracy improvements.
Hrmmm. Tac Ops Tango 51? For those who don't think that a .308 chambered tactical rifle is capable of having a 1/4 MOA guarantee and living up to it, than perhaps you had better re-think that one, or not make such a judgement until you have shot one.
Just keep in mind that the comment you referenced was made about a very specific model of rifle, as delivered out-of-the-box. I do not believe the poster intended it to be applied to ALL .308 bot guns, as properly set up bolt guns generally set the standard by which accuracy and ruggedness of precision rifles is judged.
I must have got a good one, but I bought a Remmi 700 P.S.S. and put a Leupold MK 4 on top with Mk 4 bases and rings. The rifle shoots consistent .5" or better at 100 yds. I've shot it at farther distances and it has not disappointed.
...... I doubt they have a 1/4MOA guarantee unless its chambered in .223- then it might be possible. It's impossible to have .25MOA at 100 yards when the bullet is .308...
Just keep in mind that the comment you referenced was made about a very specific model of rifle, as delivered out-of-the-box. I do not believe the poster intended it to be applied to ALL .308 bot guns, as properly set up bolt guns generally set the standard by which accuracy and ruggedness of precision rifles is judged.Forgive me for getting off track. Above is the comment I was referencing. Center to center the .308 is capable of 1/4 MOA groups. I read Dave L's quote as being that since the round is .308 it was physically impossible to shoot a 1/4 MOA as opposed to a .223, not taking into account a center to center but rather the overall physical size of the .308 hole. Of course I could be incorrect here. But Seth was kind enough to clarify the center to center measurements for MOA.
The Tac Ops rifles come with this 1/4MOA guarantee but since they are specifically designed around the 168gr FGMM rounds, they only have this MOA guarantee with this particular round.
While I am not the precision rifle King, This ain't my first rodeo and I am pretty aware that bolt guns set the standard for precision rifles. ;)
Since I am way off track already.....
I saw no mention of an accuacy guarantee on their web site. Could someone provide the link, or quote to this fantastic guarantee. Does the weapon come with a shooter with it? I don't beleive most guys that I have seen are capable of 1/4 M.O.A. shooting. Is the gun only guaranteed out to 100 yds.? What are the groups like beyond 100 yds.Are you asking that a 1 MOA or a 1/4 MOA rifle at 100 yards is not a 1 MOA or 1/4 MOA rifle beyond that distance? Or is this discussion better suited for another thread? Not trying to be an ass but there have been corrections in this thread to stay on track.
TacticalIntervention
12-20-08, 12:16
I am waiting for my tac ops rifle to get here. Mine is called a Tac51 and you wont see on website yet because I spec'd it. I am pretty sure it will hold .25 moa groups or Mike and the LE SEB guy who shot it for certification lied, which I would not believe. Just waiting for UPS to arrive in next couple of days with it.
Understand if you order from Tac Ops it will take around nine months to get it. Stocks take six months and then after bedding the action has to be shipped to Walter Birdsong for finish so add a few months after stock arrives but mine is shipping at nine month time like Mike told me it would.
As to shooting .25 moa at 100 yards being .25 moa at farther distance, sorry does not work that way and I know this from comps shooting 600-1000 in national and international events in F TR CLass. At this years nationals I shot a 199 out of 200 possible on a 1moa target and had 13 Xs in the .50 moa X ring. Before you say I cant shoot that was best score shot out of all the F TR Rilfes (308 off bipod) That rifle up close at 100 yards will put twenty rounds into dime sized group but Mother Nature says no such thing as .25 moa groups at great distance.
Why? Not because of rifle its because of the outside factors, bullet design and such.
Factory ammo is good to get an extreme velocity spread of 40-60 fps at best so if you have one round at 2650 and one at 2600 FPS you will be off about one minute between shots at 1000 yards. Thats over 10" so group goes to hell. Now at 100 yards these go through same hole and dont mess group up.
This is why our ammo for distance gets more attention than a new born baby
I am waiting for my tac ops rifle to get here. Mine is called a Tac51 and you wont see on website yet because I spec'd it. I am pretty sure it will hold .25 moa groups or Mike and the LE SEB guy who shot it for certification lied, which I would not believe. Just waiting for UPS to arrive in next couple of days with it.
Understand if you order from Tac Ops it will take around nine months to get it.
Consider yourself fortunate if Mike got you your rifle in 9 months. We just got one of ours back last month that got re-barreled and it took about 8 months. Don't worry about your rifle, it will shoot the 1/4 MOA. All 5 of our Tac Ops rifles are capable of this.
As for the MOA issue out to distance, I wanted the person I quoted to clarify what they meant. The way I read his post was that the rifle could be a 1/4 MOA rifle at 100 yards but somehow the rifle mysteriously changes its capabilities when distances get farther out, or in other words the rifle itself does not hold its MOA capability. Of course I could be wrong about what he was trying to say and didn't want to come across like an ass and assume anything. And as we know a 1 MOA or 1/4 MOA rifle holds its same MOA ability out to any distance that it is capable of shooting. The variation isn't the fault of the rifle, but rather the variables introduced, as you mention shooter, mother nature, rounds etc...Also given all of the different outside forces and variables with long range shooting, a more accurate rifle will always be a huge plus.
Have fun with your new rifle. You will not be disappointed. :)
TacticalIntervention
12-20-08, 12:58
Surf/Bro, was not hammering on you. I figured you knew difference but wanted to explain to those that may not know the whys of this.
Excited I am. Like a Red Ryder BB Gun for Christmas kinda thing but on steroids.
If you talk with Mike he will tell you we started off as telling each other to f off and ended up friends. Nice guy wish he lived closer.
As I understood the OP ,it was a factory rifle with good out of the box accuracy.
so a Remington 700 P or 5R,or Savage ,or FN would be the way to go for target and hunting ,the heavy barrel is not the best for hunting but is manageable. I have to stick with the Remington 700 5R as the best of both at a price that meets his budjet.
I have a lower end FN SPR that is working great as "first precision rifle" - it groups under 1 MOA at 100 yards and that's about what I'm capable of. My rifle is the FN SPR A1 in a basic McMillan stock, DD Ross rings and base, and a high-quality, low-cost Super Sniper scope (kidding about the high-quality, but it was low cost!). All well under $2000 - and I've started to upgrade things here and there with it as well.
Maybe something else to consider - buy a rifle that can be modified or sent off to a custom maker later. Get some good training early on and then, as you learn more, swap parts out and get things upgraded. This is great territory for the Rem 700 since anything built for precision has at least one version for the Rem 700.
Spooky
sig ssg 3000 Very nice out of the box
sig ssg 3000 Very nice out of the box
at that price you are far better off with a Sako TRG,the OP has a budget.:confused:
at that price you are far better off with a Sako TRG,the OP has a budget.:confused:
Yes you are correct. I just like the cool factor of the sig.
As I understood the OP ,it was a factory rifle with good out of the box accuracy.
so a Remington 700 P or 5R,or Savage ,or FN would be the way to go for target and hunting ,the heavy barrel is not the best for hunting but is manageable. I have to stick with the Remington 700 5R as the best of both at a price that meets his budjet.
Remington 700 5r is an Excellent out of the box deal.
I have spent a good deal of my Gun Hobby time hunting and butchering Old bolt action rifles that I have found in local gun/pawn shops for nearly 20 years now.
I am rather fond of the venerable old Medium and Short Action Remington 700's.
A little sanding and glass bedding in the right spots, adjust the trigger add a decent mount and scope carefully work up a decent handload or premium factory fodder and with all but the most abused specimens they will generally shoot sub
1" groups.
Lap in the lugs, true the action and set the Bbl back a thread before rechambering and you will most likely cut those groups in half.
Yeah there are better rifles out there but few are as modular or have as many aftermarket accesories available for them. Plus you can still find them used for around $350.00 to $400.00 often scoped or with accesories.
IMO they are still a workhorse rifle and hard to beat for the money.
Check out these two links.
http://www.varminthunter.org/
http://www.precisionshooting.com/
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