View Full Version : We Just Got a Rare Look at National Security Surveillance. It Was Ugly.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/we-just-got-a-rare-look-at-national-security-surveillance-it-was-ugly/ar-AAK1QRS
At more than 400 pages, the study amounted to the most searching look ever at the government’s secretive system for carrying out national-security surveillance on American soil. And what the report showed was not pretty.
While clearing the F.B.I. of acting out of political bias, the Justice Department’s independent inspector general, Michael E. Horowitz, and his team uncovered a staggeringly dysfunctional and error-ridden process in how the F.B.I. went about obtaining and renewing court permission under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, to wiretap Carter Page, a former Trump campaign adviser.
That was easy more than "errors". If I had made these same errors on a simple warrant for whatever, I'd be facing perjury charges.
Over 50 times, some of the smartest people in the FBI and DoJ screwed up. They not only screwed up, they did it every time, in the same direction. Either they were completely biased or some of the most incompetent people in the country.
The IG has no real power. Is anyone going to say; 'yeah man, I was biased'? Of course they are not going to say that, they know the IG has no power.
Time for a French style cleansing...they dont fear us, they dont respect us. Get up, go to work, let us snatch taxes and keep your mouth shut or we will find or fabricate the crime.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-11-19, 18:14
If Horowitz were a NAZI in WWII, Ann Frank would still be alive because he can't find shit.
Turn those comments on Trump into racist comments about Obama and then ask if those people should have been in charge of investigating Obama....
I didn't watch the whole thing, but the question that needs to be asked is "What would it have taken for you to find that there was bias? What is the closest thing to bias that you found?"
Soooo they have now given any TRump partisans in the TLA cabals to road map to opening BS cases into all the dem pols that they want. A useful idiot or two, a couple of well placed Fox News articles, get an Israeli former Mossad guy to convert a bad spy novel into a 'dossier' and we are off the spying, I mean key national security activity to protect our elections. Hell, we could probably run it with just people from M4C if we wanted too. Who want to start "Fission Deadreckoning" and "Tornado Ambush"....
There was a FBI guy (Field Agent/Supervisor) on Rush Limbaugh's show today, he said this was sad for our country. He said field agents were held to higher standards and these FBI bureaucrats have damaged the credibility of the rank and file agents that follow the law. He also said there was no way they could have gotten a FISA warrant based off the corrupt documents submitted.
Averageman
12-11-19, 20:00
This has been going for three plus, maybe four plus years now.
Has anything been done to effect real change within the HQ's?
Has replacing the Director helped?
Has the DOJ stepped in to clean house?
If the answer to all of that is No, then why hasn't anyone been prosecuted?
We either want it fixed or we are willing to put up with this.
I think Nixon should have gone to jail.
If we are going to have a chance to save the country without bloodshed, then everyone involved in the coup attempt must go to jail. Just to be clear I think this must include everyone in the last administration that approved these lies against President Trump when he was running for office.
The list must include the following;
All FBI, CIA, NSC and DOJ people involved.
Hillary and the members of the DNC, that pushed and paid for lies.
Everyone in the Administration that knew about the FISA court BS, up to and including Obama.
Then Shift, Nadler and Pelosi, plus everyone that lied under oath to Congress.
Since I don't believe even a fraction of this will happen, we are in trouble.
Mauser KAR98K
12-11-19, 22:27
Illegal surveillance...is that like...spying?
Illegal surveillance...is that like...spying?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191212/999493f78af3cfb85eeef6073e8ba898.jpg
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I agree with this 100%. If a municipal police officer falsified an affidavit, lied in court or even on an internal investigation, etc, it would be the end. Even misused the computer system to "run" someone not related for criminal justice purposes is a crime(misd/fel) and job loss at a minimum. Betrayal of the public trust at the highest level and it needs to stop and be handled harshly.
I think Nixon should have gone to jail.
If we are going to have a chance to save the country without bloodshed, then everyone involved in the coup attempt must go to jail. Just to be clear I think this must include everyone in the last administration that approved these lies against President Trump when he was running for office.
The list must include the following;
All FBI, CIA, NSC and DOJ people involved.
Hillary and the members of the DNC, that pushed and paid for lies.
Everyone in the Administration that knew about the FISA court BS, up to and including Obama.
Then Shift, Nadler and Pelosi, plus everyone that lied under oath to Congress.
Since I don't believe even a fraction of this will happen, we are in trouble.
I agree with this 100%. If a municipal police officer falsified an affidavit, lied in court or even on an internal investigation, etc, it would be the end. Even misused the computer system to "run" someone not related for criminal justice purposes is a crime(misd/fel) and job loss at a minimum. Betrayal of the public trust at the highest level and it needs to stop and be handled harshly.
That should be the end, and in some locales it is, but isn't long term dishonesty in an official capacity the gist of a Brady cop?
Averageman
12-12-19, 09:29
I'm getting tired of hearing how everyone in the DC Headquarters is corrupt, but the guys on the ground, "The Rank and File" are all good to go and fine upstanding agents, fine upstanding men and all of that.
You don't work in this level of corruption without looking the other way once or twice to avoid some sort of controversy.If you work in a sewer, you're going to bring some of that stink home with you.
Sorry, but I would rather be in the Wyoming Highway Patrol than an Agent at this time in history.
This is the way of politics and it’s not going to stop. Nobody’s going to jail.
If Horowitz were a NAZI in WWII, Ann Frank would still be alive because he can't find shit.
Turn those comments on Trump into racist comments about Obama and then ask if those people should have been in charge of investigating Obama....
I didn't watch the whole thing, but the question that needs to be asked is "What would it have taken for you to find that there was bias? What is the closest thing to bias that you found?"
Soooo they have now given any TRump partisans in the TLA cabals to road map to opening BS cases into all the dem pols that they want. A useful idiot or two, a couple of well placed Fox News articles, get an Israeli former Mossad guy to convert a bad spy novel into a 'dossier' and we are off the spying, I mean key national security activity to protect our elections. Hell, we could probably run it with just people from M4C if we wanted too. Who want to start "Fission Deadreckoning" and "Tornado Ambush"....
Horowitz has one arm tied behind his back because he cant interview anyone that is no longer with the agency. Most of perpetrators have been fired or retired.
This has been going for three plus, maybe four plus years now.
Has anything been done to effect real change within the HQ's?
Has replacing the Director helped?
Has the DOJ stepped in to clean house?
If the answer to all of that is No, then why hasn't anyone been prosecuted?
We either want it fixed or we are willing to put up with this.
I have some faith that Durham will fix this. Barr is very smart no matter what you think of him. He understands how Washington works and put Durham on the case when he came into office. Durham can call anyone for questioning, can press charges, get plea deals, grand jurys ect. If there will be any fix it will come from him. I had never heard of him before this but chatting with people around DC he is very well respected and a total straight shooter. He has been said to be totally disgusted by all this.
Grand58742
12-12-19, 10:31
Anyone who watched the un-redacted (read that as the non-CNN version of events) opening statement made by Lindsey Graham has to be shocked to the core about what went on.
Horowitz did what he needed to do which was bring the evidence to light. It's up to Barr, Wray and the POTUS to fix the problem.
Outlander Systems
12-12-19, 11:05
Got a link?
Anyone who watched the un-redacted (read that as the non-CNN version of events) opening statement made by Lindsey Graham has to be shocked to the core about what went on.
Horowitz did what he needed to do which was bring the evidence to light. It's up to Barr, Wray and the POTUS to fix the problem.
Grand58742
12-12-19, 11:20
Got a link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0l5VpTqjRs
This has been going for three plus, maybe four plus years now.
Has anything been done to effect real change within the HQ's?
Has replacing the Director helped?
Has the DOJ stepped in to clean house?
If the answer to all of that is No, then why hasn't anyone been prosecuted?
We either want it fixed or we are willing to put up with this.
You’re way too optimistic there. Can you say this has been going in since the inception of the FBI. How do you suppose Hoover got all his files compiled??? It wasn’t via choirboys asking nicely for folks to divulge the skeletons in their closets.
Supposedly, both James Baker and Comey refused to to speak with the IG on all matters. Sighting they no longer held the proper clearance to speak of these things.
The IG informed them that getting that clearance back would not be an issue and both refused that function as well.
Supposedly, both James Baker and Comey refused to to speak with the IG on all matters. Sighting they no longer held the proper clearance to speak of these things.
The IG informed them that getting that clearance back would not be an issue and both refused that function as well.
I think all former employees were not interviewed, this would include Strok, Page, McCabe, etc. Ohr is still employed by DOJ, so he was obligated to cooperate.
Outlander Systems
12-12-19, 12:54
Thank you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0l5VpTqjRs
Kimberley Strassel (Wall Street Journal) has probably the best take on "no bias" BS.
“When IG says he found no ‘documentary’ evidence of bias, he means just that: He didn't find smoking gun email that says, ‘let's take out Trump.’ And it isn't his job to guess at the motivations of FBI employees. Instead, he straightforwardly lays out facts. Those facts produce a pattern of FBI playing the FISA Court--overstating some info, omitting other info, cherry-picking details. Americans can look at totality and make their own judgment as to ‘why’ FBI behaved in such a manner.”
Kimberley Strassel (Wall Street Journal) has probably the best take on "no bias" BS.
“When IG says he found no ‘documentary’ evidence of bias, he means just that: He didn't find smoking gun email that says, ‘let's take out Trump.’ And it isn't his job to guess at the motivations of FBI employees. Instead, he straightforwardly lays out facts. Those facts produce a pattern of FBI playing the FISA Court--overstating some info, omitting other info, cherry-picking details. Americans can look at totality and make their own judgment as to ‘why’ FBI behaved in such a manner.”
Neil Armstrong never told me he walked on the moon. Does not mean he did not walk on the moon.
Neil Armstrong never told me he walked on the moon. Does not mean he did not walk on the moon.
Not sure but I remember when Buzz Aldrin punched that guy in the face for claiming all the moon landings were hoaxes and called him a liar.
DoJ OIG Review of Four FISA Applications and Other Aspects of the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane Investigation
Executive Summary Notes (as compiled by glocktogo)
• Crossfire Hurricane (CH) opened on July 31, 2016, after Australian Ambassador Alexander Downer (AA) reported the bar conversation with Papadopoulos 2 ½ months earlier. The Steele Dossier played no part in opening the investigation.
• Individual cases were opened on Papadopoulos, Page, Manafort & Flynn in August, 2016.
• The full CH investigation was authorized by Counterintelligence Division Asst. Director Bill Priestap, based on the AA’s report and the ongoing investigation into the DNC hack.
• Priestap was the one who decided that the Trump Campaign would not be notified of the Russian intelligence threat.
• Priestap was Strozk’s immediate supervisor. Strozk was involved in all the discussions regarding the opening of CH, and Strozk approved the 4 individual cases on Trump associates. These were based on which Trump associates had recently travelled to Russia or had other alleged ties to Russia.
• Strozk was sent “abroad” to interview Ambassador Downer.
• Confidential Human Sources (CHS) were identified who could provide human intelligence (HUMINT) and recordings of Trump associates.
• CH sent multiple CHSs to record conversations with Papadopoulos and Page, without their knowledge.
• In August, 2016, CH discussed getting a FISA surveillance warrant on Page, but they determined they didn’t have PC to warrant it.
• CH received the Steele Dossier September 19, 2016 and used it as PC to obtain electronic surveillance authority from the FISC on September 21, 2016.
• While Steele was a registered CHS for the FBI, the CH team downplayed or ignored information that cast doubt on the veracity of his information.
• The Steele Dossier played a “central and essential role” in the CH team’s decision to seek the initial and three subsequent FISA warrants against Page.
• While CH was kicked off by the barroom report on Papadopoulos, the FBI attorneys were against getting a FISA warrant on him, due to lack of corroborating information.
• The CH team DID NOT give all the relevant information to senior leadership and they (James Baker, Andrew McCabe and James Comey) supported relying on the Steele Dossier to seek the FISA warrants on Page. This was over the objection of Deputy Asst. Attorney General Stuart Evans, who was concerned that they were using opposition research intended for a political campaign.
• The warrants went forward despite there being no independent corroboration of the Steele Dossier.
• Steele’s “reliability” was overstated by the CH team and did not meet FBI standards. His activities ultimately resulted in his being delisted as an approved FBI CHS, but CH continued to rely on him and his reporting thereafter.
• CH omitted exculpatory recordings from CHSs surveilling Page and Papadopoulos, while including recordings of Page that supported their theory.
• During all four FISA warrant applications against Page, CH never included the fact that Page was in fact an “operational contact” for the CIA, and had “candidly” provided information on Russian contacts during the period in question to the CIA. The FBI were aware of this fact as early as August, 2016, but a CH agent misrepresented that information as “dated” and “outside scope”. It was not.
• The IG could not interview Comey, therefore they could not determine accurately whether Comey was aware of any of these issues.
• The FBI officially closed Steele as an authorized CHS in November, 2016, but DoJ Associate Deputy Attorney General (AGAG) and Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) Director Bruce Ohr subsequently met with the FBI 13 times, to pass along further Steele derived information he received from Fusion GPS (Steele’s client on the Dossier).
• The CIA objected to the Steele Dossier being included in an Intelligence Community Assessment (ICA) on Russian election interference as “internet rumor”, but Comey and McCabe sought to have it included, portions of which were.
• The FBI sent agents abroad to shore up Steele’s credibility after he was closed as a CHS, but that information (both positive and negative) was never included in his file.
• FBI interviews with Steele and his sources revealed “potentially serious problems” with his reports.
• The FBI failed to corroborate ANY of the allegations against Page made by Steele.
• The CH team ultimately had multiple instances of non-corroborated evidence, exculpatory evidence and lack of source credibility being omitted from the three FISA warrant renewals against Page. This is the foundation for the IG’s 17 documented instances where the CH team failed to follow FBI policy and procedure in regards to FISA warrant applications.
• When Page made public statements in April & May, 2017 that he had assisted U.S. government agencies in the past, a request was made to confirm that Page was not a U.S. intelligence source. That Page WAS a CIA source was confirmed to an FBI Office of General Counsel attorney, who subsequently tampered with electronic communications to state that Page WAS NOT A SOURCE. This resulted in the 3rd FISA warrant reauthorization against Page being issued based on false information (hence the criminal referral to the Durham probe).
• Ultimately, the 17 significant procedural errors listed were so “basic and fundamental”, it calls into question the FBI’s management and supervision of the FISA process.
• Regarding ADAG Ohr, he initially met directly with McCabe to pass along Steele information he received directly from Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn Simpson. After the Ohr/McCabe meeting, Ohr met with members of CH 13 times to pass along information from Steele and/or Simpson.
• Ohr failed to notify his DoJ superiors that he was meeting with Steele, Simpson, DoS contacts and then the FBI. Ohr acknowledged that had he notified his superiors, he likely would’ve been told to stop. Ohr was operating wholly outside the scope of his office in these matters.
• Ohr was also taking Steele derived information to the DoJ Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section (MLARS) regarding Manafort. Several of these meetings also included Strozk and Lisa Page.
• While CHS’s and Undercover Employees (UCE’s) were used to surveil and record Trump Campaign members, there were no CHS’s or UCE’s placed within the campaign staff directly.
TL;DR: The FBI relied on one alleged barroom conversation that wasn’t reported for several months, and a discredited source proffering unsubstantiated political opposition “research”, to spy on the American presidential campaign of Donald J. Trump. The FBI misled the FISA court four times in order to obtain electronic surveillance warrants on a Trump Campaign official, who was in actuality a CIA confidential human source. In every instance where there was ambiguity, exculpatory evidence, conflicting information or FBI policy or procedure that might call the basis for the investigation into question, the FBI made “mistakes” in favor of continuing to surveil an American political campaign. When a crucial component if the investigation’s source predication was de-certified for cause, a high ranking DoJ official outside the scope of his authority intervened to continue feeding that unreliable information into the investigation.
I would contend that the IG report is narrow in scope and while it did not prove political bias in the official investigation, it fell far short of refuting it. Folks, this is just the first 20 pages of the Horowitz IG report, which is 476 pages long. It doesn’t even really get into Papadopoulos’ assertion that he originally heard that Russia might have dirt on Hillary from Joseph Mifsud (Page 262) on April 26, 2016, which Mifsud denied to the FBI. This is the same Mifsud who may or may not be either a Russian intelligence asset and/or a CIA intelligence asset respectively. All we know is that during all the hullabaloo which ensued, Mifsud was hiding out in an apartment paid for by “Link International”, right next to the American Embassy in Rome, allegedly at the behest of the head of Italian secret services (according to an interview with Mifsud).
https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf
DoJ OIG Review of Four FISA Applications and Other Aspects of the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane Investigation
Executive Summary Notes (as compiled by glocktogo)
• Crossfire Hurricane (CH) opened on July 31, 2016, after Australian Ambassador Alexander Downer (AA) reported the bar conversation with Papadopoulos 2 ½ months earlier. The Steele Dossier played no part in opening the investigation.
• Individual cases were opened on Papadopoulos, Page, Manafort & Flynn in August, 2016.
• The full CH investigation was authorized by Counterintelligence Division Asst. Director Bill Priestap, based on the AA’s report and the ongoing investigation into the DNC hack.
• Priestap was the one who decided that the Trump Campaign would not be notified of the Russian intelligence threat.
• Priestap was Strozk’s immediate supervisor. Strozk was involved in all the discussions regarding the opening of CH, and Strozk approved the 4 individual cases on Trump associates. These were based on which Trump associates had recently travelled to Russia or had other alleged ties to Russia.
• Strozk was sent “abroad” to interview Ambassador Downer.
• Confidential Human Sources (CHS) were identified who could provide human intelligence (HUMINT) and recordings of Trump associates.
• CH sent multiple CHSs to record conversations with Papadopoulos and Page, without their knowledge.
• In August, 2016, CH discussed getting a FISA surveillance warrant on Page, but they determined they didn’t have PC to warrant it.
• CH received the Steele Dossier September 19, 2016 and used it as PC to obtain electronic surveillance authority from the FISC on September 21, 2016.
• While Steele was a registered CHS for the FBI, the CH team downplayed or ignored information that cast doubt on the veracity of his information.
• The Steele Dossier played a “central and essential role” in the CH team’s decision to seek the initial and three subsequent FISA warrants against Page.
• While CH was kicked off by the barroom report on Papadopoulos, the FBI attorneys were against getting a FISA warrant on him, due to lack of corroborating information.
• The CH team DID NOT give all the relevant information to senior leadership and they (James Baker, Andrew McCabe and James Comey) supported relying on the Steele Dossier to seek the FISA warrants on Page. This was over the objection of Deputy Asst. Attorney General Stuart Evans, who was concerned that they were using opposition research intended for a political campaign.
• The warrants went forward despite there being no independent corroboration of the Steele Dossier.
• Steele’s “reliability” was overstated by the CH team and did not meet FBI standards. His activities ultimately resulted in his being delisted as an approved FBI CHS, but CH continued to rely on him and his reporting thereafter.
• CH omitted exculpatory recordings from CHSs surveilling Page and Papadopoulos, while including recordings of Page that supported their theory.
• During all four FISA warrant applications against Page, CH never included the fact that Page was in fact an “operational contact” for the CIA, and had “candidly” provided information on Russian contacts during the period in question to the CIA. The FBI were aware of this fact as early as August, 2016, but a CH agent misrepresented that information as “dated” and “outside scope”. It was not.
• The IG could not interview Comey, therefore they could not determine accurately whether Comey was aware of any of these issues.
• The FBI officially closed Steele as an authorized CHS in November, 2016, but DoJ Associate Deputy Attorney General (AGAG) and Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) Director Bruce Ohr subsequently met with the FBI 13 times, to pass along further Steele derived information he received from Fusion GPS (Steele’s client on the Dossier).
• The CIA objected to the Steele Dossier being included in an Intelligence Community Assessment (ICA) on Russian election interference as “internet rumor”, but Comey and McCabe sought to have it included, portions of which were.
• The FBI sent agents abroad to shore up Steele’s credibility after he was closed as a CHS, but that information (both positive and negative) was never included in his file.
• FBI interviews with Steele and his sources revealed “potentially serious problems” with his reports.
• The FBI failed to corroborate ANY of the allegations against Page made by Steele.
• The CH team ultimately had multiple instances of non-corroborated evidence, exculpatory evidence and lack of source credibility being omitted from the three FISA warrant renewals against Page. This is the foundation for the IG’s 17 documented instances where the CH team failed to follow FBI policy and procedure in regards to FISA warrant applications.
• When Page made public statements in April & May, 2017 that he had assisted U.S. government agencies in the past, a request was made to confirm that Page was not a U.S. intelligence source. That Page WAS a CIA source was confirmed to an FBI Office of General Counsel attorney, who subsequently tampered with electronic communications to state that Page WAS NOT A SOURCE. This resulted in the 3rd FISA warrant reauthorization against Page being issued based on false information (hence the criminal referral to the Durham probe).
• Ultimately, the 17 significant procedural errors listed were so “basic and fundamental”, it calls into question the FBI’s management and supervision of the FISA process.
• Regarding ADAG Ohr, he initially met directly with McCabe to pass along Steele information he received directly from Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn Simpson. After the Ohr/McCabe meeting, Ohr met with members of CH 13 times to pass along information from Steele and/or Simpson.
• Ohr failed to notify his DoJ superiors that he was meeting with Steele, Simpson, DoS contacts and then the FBI. Ohr acknowledged that had he notified his superiors, he likely would’ve been told to stop. Ohr was operating wholly outside the scope of his office in these matters.
• Ohr was also taking Steele derived information to the DoJ Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section (MLARS) regarding Manafort. Several of these meetings also included Strozk and Lisa Page.
• While CHS’s and Undercover Employees (UCE’s) were used to surveil and record Trump Campaign members, there were no CHS’s or UCE’s placed within the campaign staff directly.
TL;DR: The FBI relied on one alleged barroom conversation that wasn’t reported for several months, and a discredited source proffering unsubstantiated political opposition “research”, to spy on the American presidential campaign of Donald J. Trump. The FBI misled the FISA court four times in order to obtain electronic surveillance warrants on a Trump Campaign official, who was in actuality a CIA confidential human source. In every instance where there was ambiguity, exculpatory evidence, conflicting information or FBI policy or procedure that might call the basis for the investigation into question, the FBI made “mistakes” in favor of continuing to surveil an American political campaign. When a crucial component if the investigation’s source predication was de-certified for cause, a high ranking DoJ official outside the scope of his authority intervened to continue feeding that unreliable information into the investigation.
I would contend that the IG report is narrow in scope and while it did not prove political bias in the official investigation, it fell far short of refuting it. Folks, this is just the first 20 pages of the Horowitz IG report, which is 476 pages long. It doesn’t even really get into Papadopoulos’ assertion that he originally heard that Russia might have dirt on Hillary from Joseph Mifsud (Page 262) on April 26, 2016, which Mifsud denied to the FBI. This is the same Mifsud who may or may not be either a Russian intelligence asset and/or a CIA intelligence asset respectively. All we know is that during all the hullabaloo which ensued, Mifsud was hiding out in an apartment paid for by “Link International”, right next to the American Embassy in Rome, allegedly at the behest of the head of Italian secret services (according to an interview with Mifsud).
https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf
good summary
Neil Armstrong never told me he walked on the moon. Does not mean he did not walk on the moon.
But I think it's fair to say intent is a bit more complicated to prove than actions. I don't know if it's an IG thing or a Horowitz thing but he won't assign motive.
I'm sure bias was rampant, but still unsure what bias or combo infected all the various players.
Biased to believe that Trump was working for the Russians?
Biased the fruit of the spying was being given to his opponent?
Biased to kneecap Trump's agenda because they politically disagree?
Biased to be the savior of the Republic?
But I think it's fair to say intent is a bit more complicated to prove than actions. I don't know if it's an IG thing or a Horowitz thing but he won't assign motive.
I'm sure bias was rampant, but still unsure what bias or combo infected all the various players.
Biased to believe that Trump was working for the Russians?
Biased the fruit of the spying was being given to his opponent?
Biased to kneecap Trump's agenda because they politically disagree?
Biased to be the savior of the Republic?
My guess is: Biased to retain power and control over U.S. government policy in their own hands. :(
elephantrider
12-13-19, 02:11
But I think it's fair to say intent is a bit more complicated to prove than actions. I don't know if it's an IG thing or a Horowitz thing but he won't assign motive.
I'm old enough to remember when J. Comey was able to determine that H. Clinton broke the law, but wasn't guilty b/c he knew that she didn't have any ill intent. As for Horowitz, and his inability to assign a motive, it's probably a 'don't make waves,' thing as well as a 'don't piss off the FBI' thing. I think this point it's pretty clear what happens when you cross the FBI.
I guess you guys haven't been paying attention to the drug war... Seems like pretty standard law enforcement investigative tactics to make up or overstate evidence in order to get warrants. I suppose we should be thankful that Barron wasn't horribly burned by having a flashbang tossed into his bed while he was sleeping and that Don and Melania weren't killed in a hail of bullets during a no knock warrant service.
I guess you guys haven't been paying attention to the drug war... Seems like pretty standard law enforcement investigative tactics to make up or overstate evidence in order to get warrants. I suppose we should be thankful that Barron wasn't horribly burned by having a flashbang tossed into his bed while he was sleeping and that Don and Melania weren't killed in a hail of bullets during a no knock warrant service.
If the Democrats had the power to perp walk Trump out of the White House, it would've been done that way. I don't see what your point it though, because the IC facilitated the FBI's "parallel construction" of their sham case. This has Brennan's fingerprints all over it.
Diamondback
12-13-19, 11:16
If the Democrats had the power to perp walk Trump out of the White House, it would've been done that way. I don't see what your point it though, because the IC facilitated the FBI's "parallel construction" of their sham case. This has Brennan's fingerprints all over it.
No, it would have been "shot while resisting arrest."
If the Democrats had the power to perp walk Trump out of the White House, it would've been done that way. I don't see what your point it though, because the IC facilitated the FBI's "parallel construction" of their sham case. This has Brennan's fingerprints all over it.
My point is that everyone is making this out to be an exception driven out of political ideology rather than just an outright culture of lazy, half-assed, ends-justify-the-means, illegal investigative practices.
I didn't make up having a bang tossed into a kid's bed, or a couple getting smoked in their own living room. Both recent cases were warrants based on trumped up or fabricated information...
My point is that everyone is making this out to be an exception driven out of political ideology rather than just an outright culture of lazy, half-assed, ends-justify-the-means, illegal investigative practices.
I didn't make up having a bang tossed into a kid's bed, or a couple getting smoked in their own living room. Both recent cases were warrants based on trumped up or fabricated information...
Well it appears I agree with you, hence the parallel construction comment, which happens as well. Shortcuts that violate Due Process are not cool. :(
My point is that everyone is making this out to be an exception driven out of political ideology rather than just an outright culture of lazy, half-assed, ends-justify-the-means, illegal investigative practices.
I'm on record saying at least some of this is confirmation bias. Probably how it started, they disliked Trump enough to believe the rumors and dossier.
BUT COME ON MAN, we have the same exact crew doing the exact opposite of overly aggressive, ends justify the means investigation of HRC to contrast.
I cannot reconcile the difference of those two investigations with "lazy". At some point I have to believe the people driving the investigation, "we won't let him" and "insurance policy", as to why they continued against the evidence.
I'm not convinced it started as a coup, but that doesn't mean it didn't end as a coup.
That was easy more than "errors". If I had made these same errors on a simple warrant for whatever, I'd be facing perjury charges.
Friend of mine, local deputy sheriff who has written many a warrant, made much the same statement. He also included that to make that many errors was, in his opinion, willful negligence.
Diamondback
12-15-19, 17:36
Friend of mine, local deputy sheriff who has written many a warrant, made much the same statement. He also included that to make that many errors was, in his opinion, willful negligence.
Also, you'd expect true "random error" to sometimes break to the benefit of one side occasionally rather than ALWAYS being to the benefit of the other.
"Once is happenstance, twice coincidence. Three times, now that's Enemy Action."--Auric Goldfinger
Gibbs Rule #39: "There is no such thing as coincidence."
" Rule #39A: "There is no such thing as a small world."
" Rule #40: "If it seems like someone is out to get you, they are."
And especially most relevant of all as the mea-culpas start...
Rule #42: "Never accept an apology from someone who just sucker punched you."
Also, you'd expect true "random error" to sometimes break to the benefit of one side occasionally rather than ALWAYS being to the benefit of the other.
"Once is happenstance, twice coincidence. Three times, now that's Enemy Action."--Auric Goldfinger
Gibbs Rule #39: "There is no such thing as coincidence."
" Rule #39A: "There is no such thing as a small world."
" Rule #40: "If it seems like someone is out to get you, they are."
And especially most relevant of all as the mea-culpas start...
Rule #42: "Never accept an apology from someone who just sucker punched you."
Agreed. I've kept an eye on all this crap from the beginning. President Trump was not my first choice, but damn if I'm not enjoying the mental gymnastics and downright temper tantrums of the left.
Lisa Page’s lawsuit is not about a breech of privacy; that’s the excuse. Lisa Page is working with her Lawfare allies to block the release of unredacted text messages between her and Peter Strzok. The totality of the communication outlines the context of the FBI conspiracy during the 2016 election. That *conspiracy* is what FBI Director Christopher Wray was put in place to hide.
DAG Rosenstein recommended Chris Wray for that exact purpose. Wray then hired David Bowditch as his deputy. Bowditch was/is compromised by his former role in the San Bernadino terrorist attack. Wray then hired Dana Boente as FBI legal counsel. Boente was/is compromised by his prior role in the DOJ-NSD FISA effort, and his role in the capture of Julian Assange to cover-up the false claim of the Russia DNC hack.
My point is that everyone is making this out to be an exception driven out of political ideology rather than just an outright culture of lazy, half-assed, ends-justify-the-means, illegal investigative practices.
I didn't make up having a bang tossed into a kid's bed, or a couple getting smoked in their own living room. Both recent cases were warrants based on trumped up or fabricated information...
When said investigative efforts are entirely biased in one targeted direction of the political spectrum that absolutely suggests ideological motivation. That’s how investigations at this level of government actually work.
As for HRC the amount of effort expended relative to the criminal activities alleged if not outright irrefutable on her part was/is a pittance compared to the efforts levied at Trump.
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Averageman
12-15-19, 19:57
When and if it is investigated all of this will lay at Brennan's feet.
That MF'er is pure evil and has been since the seventies.
Diamondback
12-15-19, 20:00
When and if it is investigated all of this will lay at Brennan's feet.
That MF'er is pure evil and has been since the seventies.
Never forget that he's the reason the 9/11 hijackers got their entry visas... incompetence or deliberate, like the number of licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop we may never know.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-15-19, 20:36
When and if it is investigated all of this will lay at Brennan's feet.
That MF'er is pure evil and has been since the seventies.
Brennan was transactional and a clear threat. People like Clapper need their day in the harsh lights, along with Rice and Powers. People like Jarrett and Rhodes are too dumb to be truly dangerous. Let them be cautionary tales of what progressive stupidity really is.
Brennan was transactional and a clear threat. People like Clapper need their day in the harsh lights, along with Rice and Powers. People like Jarrett and Rhodes are too dumb to be truly dangerous. Let them be cautionary tales of what progressive stupidity really is.
Rhodes is an arrogant idiot. Jarrett is a player. Clapper is a lying idiot. Brennan deserves ass-cancer. If he expired under the most excruciating circumstances imaginable, it would not bother me one bit.
Diamondback
12-16-19, 15:46
Rhodes is an arrogant idiot. Jarrett is a player. Clapper is a lying idiot. Brennan deserves ass-cancer. If he expired under the most excruciating circumstances imaginable, it would not bother me one bit.
Brennan deserves to be impregnated by a facehugger. I'm generally no fan of NSA, but thank God that Mike Rogers did the right thing and raised the alarm.
Averageman
12-16-19, 16:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRkAvPUuMQk
Gross negligence or intentional bias?
I think I will go with choice number two, you don't falsify a FISA warrant because of negligence.
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