View Full Version : Afghanistan Papers
Supposedly, a bunch of internal docs that claim the war was viewed as unwinnable and lots of rosy false reports fabricated to keep the public happy and the $$ flowing. I suspect a lot of it is not going to surprise those here who have been paying attention and such. Painting a rosy picture to keep public support is as old as war itself, so that aspect does not really trigger me per se.
I have not gotten deep into the weeds on this one myself, and the paper that "broke" the story (https://www.washingtonpost.com/) requires a subscription, so I can't comment on whether this is more a yawn to those who know how the machine works and a shock to the public, or it's legit beyond the usual stuff:
No cohesive strategy, check
Trillions of $ used, check
Rosy reports to maintain support, check
Rumsfeld is a POS, check
People lost who didn't need to be lost, check
And don't even get me started on Iraq, check
Anyone read it? Am I missing anything?
One take:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/5-infuriating-findings-in-the-afghanistan-papers/
Yeah looking back there was no real objective and that detour into Iraq was pretty pointless.
You cannot win if you have no goals.
I think it was by Fall of 2003 that I realized Rumsfeld was seriously out of touch. Like not the usual out of touch but seriously out of it.
I feel like if they had realistic goals, realistic objectives, and realistic attitudes that it would have stayed contained to Afghanistan and UBL would’ve been killed or captured a lot sooner. There was a far better case to invade Saudi Arabia than Iraq.
We got played during a moment of crisis.
ETA remember Aliens when Ripley asked “If we go. We go to destroy them. Not to study and not to bring back?” and the guy says “Yeah” but was lying?. That’s pretty much what happened.
Bureaucracy at its finest. Huge waste of lives and treasure. The past 18 years used to fund the military-industrial complex. The only reason we are still there is to try to save face at this point. We should have cut sling load a long time ago.
By the end of December 2001 we had done what we set out to, and what was reasonable and doable. We toppled the Taliban and tracked down OBL. We did it extremely well. To many peoples reports Toro Boro would have been a success if not for ROE and requests by CIA/ Delta Commanding officer not having been met by higher ups.
Everything after that is nation building, which pretty much never works. But, endless wars are endless money.
Military. Industrial. Complex.
In Iraq we saw what modern war profiteering looks like. In that case is was unabashed and celebrated. Think Blackwater, Haliburton, KBR.
TheChunkNorris
12-12-19, 09:33
By the end of December 2001 we had done what we set out to, and what was reasonable and doable. We toppled the Taliban and tracked down OBL. We did it extremely well. To many peoples reports Toro Boro would have been a success if not for ROE and requests by CIA/ Delta Commanding officer not having been met by higher ups.
Everything after that is nation building, which pretty much never works. But, endless wars are endless money.
Military. Industrial. Complex.
In Iraq we saw what modern war profiteering looks like. In that case is was unabashed and celebrated. Think Blackwater, Haliburton, KBR.
Don’t forget Fluor.
Averageman
12-12-19, 09:47
By the end of December 2001 we had done what we set out to, and what was reasonable and doable. We toppled the Taliban and tracked down OBL. We did it extremely well. To many peoples reports Toro Boro would have been a success if not for ROE and requests by CIA/ Delta Commanding officer not having been met by higher ups.
Everything after that is nation building, which pretty much never works. But, endless wars are endless money.
Military. Industrial. Complex.
In Iraq we saw what modern war profiteering looks like. In that case is was unabashed and celebrated. Think Blackwater, Haliburton, KBR.
We won, we should have packed our gear and left.
We didn't.
Grand58742
12-12-19, 10:03
Nobody ever wins in Afghanistan.
You can only hope to put in the government you want and run like hell as it all comes crashing down.
Nobody ever wins in Afghanistan.
You can only hope to put in the government you want and run like hell as it all comes crashing down.
Not sure how one even defines winning there at this point. Right now, we're indirectly funding heroin production there.
Grand58742
12-12-19, 11:21
Not sure how one even defines winning there at this point. Right now, we're indirectly funding heroin production there.
The definition in this case is "complete lack of strategic goals."
The definition in this case is "complete lack of strategic goals."
As everyone indicated and to paraphrase, Caesar "we came, we saw, we concurred" and then we did the classic US thing and decided we needed to stay and nation build and right the wrongs of the world, insert a US friendly gubment, ignore the fact that Pakistan is our allies and harbored OBL, privatize the war to make some a lot of $, etc.
Grand58742
12-12-19, 12:12
As everyone indicated and to paraphrase, Caesar "we came, we saw, we concurred" and then we did the classic US thing and decided we needed to stay and nation build and right the wrongs of the world, insert a US friendly gubment, ignore the fact that Pakistan is our allies and harbored OBL, privatize the war to make some a lot of $, etc.
Afghanistan should be a case study for "go in, blow shit up, kill bad guys, leave and let them pick up the pieces."
You are correct in your "we have to do SOMETHING!" mentality we had in the aftermath.
Dr. Bullseye
12-12-19, 12:16
Supposedly, a bunch of internal docs that claim the war was viewed as unwinnable and lots of rosy false reports fabricated to keep the public happy and the $$ flowing. I suspect a lot of it is not going to surprise those here who have been paying attention and such. Painting a rosy picture to keep public support is as old as war itself, so that aspect does not really trigger me per se.
I have not gotten deep into the weeds on this one myself, and the paper that "broke" the story (https://www.washingtonpost.com/) requires a subscription, so I can't comment on whether this is more a yawn to those who know how the machine works and a shock to the public, or it's legit beyond the usual stuff:
No cohesive strategy, check
Trillions of $ used, check
Rosy reports to maintain support, check
Rumsfeld is a POS, check
People lost who didn't need to be lost, check
And don't even get me started on Iraq, check
Anyone read it? Am I missing anything?
One take:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/5-infuriating-findings-in-the-afghanistan-papers/
This sounds like a sequel to something we know in the past. Never listing to Ex-Generals pimping a war on TV.
As everyone indicated and to paraphrase, Caesar "we came, we saw, we concurred"
Spell check got you in a humorous way.
Adrenaline_6
12-12-19, 15:40
Spell check got you in a humorous way.
I concur.
Threads like this make me miss Kalashnikev
Thankfully we’re still there protecting both Saudi and Israeli interests. Small miracles and all that.
[emoji849]
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Spell check got you in a humorous way.
I'm the typo king bro.
Pacific5th
12-12-19, 18:23
By the end of December 2001 we had done what we set out to, and what was reasonable and doable. We toppled the Taliban and tracked down OBL. We did it extremely well. To many peoples reports Toro Boro would have been a success if not for ROE and requests by CIA/ Delta Commanding officer not having been met by higher ups.
Everything after that is nation building, which pretty much never works. But, endless wars are endless money.
Military. Industrial. Complex.
In Iraq we saw what modern war profiteering looks like. In that case is was unabashed and celebrated. Think Blackwater, Haliburton, KBR.
I remember being in boot camp sept-dec 2001 and we were thinking the war would be over by the time we got to the fleet. How wrong we were.
elephantrider
12-13-19, 02:29
Yeah looking back there was no real objective and that detour into Iraq was pretty pointless.
You cannot win if you have no goals.
Came to post basically this. How do you win a war in which "winning" has not, and never was defined? Short answer is that you don't, you just burn through blood and treasure with no end in sight. This is like page one Sun Tzu shit. Day by day this is turning me into one of the tinfoil hat, military industrial conspiracy, hardline anti-war libertarians that I used to chuckle at.
Pacific5th
12-13-19, 05:10
I keep thinking back to the end of the Iraq war. I was there for the invasion. What the US did during the invasion I am still amazed at. We steamrolled the Iraqi’s. But once we got to Baghdad even my 21 year old Lance Corporal ass could see that the leadership had no plan on what to do once the government fell. We had a real chance in early 2001 to do something with Iraq. I can’t speak for Afghanistan, I never got a trip over there.
I keep thinking back to the end of the Iraq war. I was there for the invasion. What the US did during the invasion I am still amazed at. We steamrolled the Iraqi’s. But once we got to Baghdad even my 21 year old Lance Corporal ass could see that the leadership had no plan on what to do once the government fell. We had a real chance in early 2001 to do something with Iraq. I can’t speak for Afghanistan, I never got a trip over there.
There was a plan, a good plan, and General Shinseki outlined the number of people it would require, so they fired him. The rest is history. See also Rumsfeld is a POS.
Came to post basically this. How do you win a war in which "winning" has not, and never was defined? Short answer is that you don't, you just burn through blood and treasure with no end in sight. This is like page one Sun Tzu shit. Day by day this is turning me into one of the tinfoil hat, military industrial conspiracy, hardline anti-war libertarians that I used to chuckle at.
Rand was right
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Well, I'm glad that there's documented evidence that the government knew what everyone else already knew/knows. What a f!$&ing waste.
I remember being in boot camp sept-dec 2001 and we were thinking the war would be over by the time we got to the fleet. How wrong we were.
Now one worries whether the war will be over by the time one retires.
The first Anglo-Afghan war. Lot of parallels with today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-i8xKjFru0
Just now looking this up. There were second and third Anglo-Afghan wars.
A series of cautionary tales.
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