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A rule of thumb used to say that, for a given caliber, a bolt gun will usually have the edge over a semiauto in terms of accuracy. Given modern manufacturing techniques, does this still hold true?
Not really. It WAS true in an era of M14s but now its approaching fuddlore
Yes and no. Depends on the semi auto. A quality AR 308 yes.
My anecdotal information is no but it is so apples and oranges, who can say for sure? I really don't even know how to properly compare the two since there are so many variables.
My 1 off story is when I borrowed a coworker's Remington 700 with NXS 5.5-22 and shot it against my 16inch BCM with Steiner PX4i. At 100 yards BCM was printing tighter groups using 60 grain TAP (I was actually shocked by the accuracy since everyone suggests these are 2 MOA guns). I'm sure that 700 would shoot better with different ammo but that's what I had on hand. I'm starting to hate guns, it's getting boring saying "AR and G19."
A rule of thumb used to say that, for a given caliber, a bolt gun will usually have the edge over a semiauto in terms of accuracy. Given modern manufacturing techniques, does this still hold true?
Absolutely. But odds are you, or most people on this forum cannot exploit it.
Here are some facts of the matter:
-Bolt guns are easier to shoot.
-Bolt guns have a shorter lock time.
-Bolt guns have no reciprocating mass.
-Bolt guns have a more solid attachment method to the receiver.
-Bolt guns have a tighter lockup, less flex.
Anybody that says semi-autos are as accurate (which you’re really meaning precise, accuracy is on the shooter) and we’re talking the best of the best here, doesn’t know their ass from a hole in the ground and they probably prefer Thai lady boy dick to pussy.
There are no BR records being set with semi-autos. Semi-autos are not winning in competitions, F-class, etc.
There is just more potential with the bolt action in terms of precision.
Additionally, one can buy dollar for dollar, a more precise tool when selecting a bolt-action over a semi-auto.
The better, more precise semi-autos just cost 3-4x more for the same, or even a touch less performance.
But here’s the dirty little secret. You’re not a good enough shooter for it to matter. Most people here aren’t. The level of precision of both bolt-actions and the better semi-autos these days is completely adequate for the targets you’re going to shoot.
For instance, I have an old 700PSS with a 10x Leupold I paid $650 for. The optic was probably another $600 or $700. With factory Federal 175 SMKs j routinely get groups in the 0.3-0.4 MOA range for five rounds.
I have a LaRue OBR with a Leupold Mark 6 3-18x. The rifle was over $3,000 and the optic $2000. With the same ammo it shoots 0.6-0.7 MOA for five rounds.
The Remington is lighter. It’s more maneuverable. It’s easier to shoot. It’s easier to spot impacts when I don’t have a spotter. I can run it just about as fast as the OBR. Obviously it’s more accurate. This isn’t anecdotal, either. I have a safe full of bolt-actions from $300 to $7000 and just about any one of them will perform as well as if not better than the OBR or any of my other ARs.
But if I were to use any one of them for realzies, the semi-auto is more effective as a defensive weapon. Throwing 25 or 30 round magazines trumps a 0.2 MOA increase in performance.
Hunting, target shooting, competition, etc the bolt gun is a better value and easier to manage.
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My anecdotal information is no but it is so apples and oranges, who can say for sure? I really don't even know how to properly compare the two since there are so many variables.
My 1 off story is when I borrowed a coworker's Remington 700 with NXS 5.5-22 and shot it against my 16inch BCM with Steiner PX4i. At 100 yards BCM was printing tighter groups using 60 grain TAP (I was actually shocked by the accuracy since everyone suggests these are 2 MOA guns). I'm sure that 700 would shoot better with different ammo but that's what I had on hand. I'm starting to hate guns, it's getting boring saying "AR and G19."
This is the final red pill.
I hate guns so much I got the most reliable, boring, no frills ones and got a life instead.
Absolutely. But odds are you, or most people on this forum cannot exploit it.
Here are some facts of the matter:
-Bolt guns are easier to shoot.
-Bolt guns have a shorter lock time.
-Bolt guns have no reciprocating mass.
-Bolt guns have a more solid attachment method to the receiver.
-Bolt guns have a tighter lockup, less flex.
Anybody that says semi-autos are as accurate (which you’re really meaning precise, accuracy is on the shooter) and we’re talking the best of the best here, doesn’t know their ass from a hole in the ground and they probably prefer Thai lady boy dick to pussy.
There are no BR records being set with semi-autos. Semi-autos are not winning in competitions, F-class, etc.
There is just more potential with the bolt action in terms of precision.
Additionally, one can buy dollar for dollar, a more precise tool when selecting a bolt-action over a semi-auto.
The better, more precise semi-autos just cost 3-4x more for the same, or even a touch less performance.
But here’s the dirty little secret. You’re not a good enough shooter for it to matter. Most people here aren’t. The level of precision of both bolt-actions and the better semi-autos these days is completely adequate for the targets you’re going to shoot.
For instance, I have an old 700PSS with a 10x Leupold I paid $650 for. The optic was probably another $600 or $700. With factory Federal 175 SMKs j routinely get groups in the 0.3-0.4 MOA range for five rounds.
I have a LaRue OBR with a Leupold Mark 6 3-18x. The rifle was over $3,000 and the optic $2000. With the same ammo it shoots 0.6-0.7 MOA for five rounds.
The Remington is lighter. It’s more maneuverable. It’s easier to shoot. It’s easier to spot impacts when I don’t have a spotter. I can run it just about as fast as the OBR. Obviously it’s more accurate. This isn’t anecdotal, either. I have a safe full of bolt-actions from $300 to $7000 and just about any one of them will perform as well as if not better than the OBR or any of my other ARs.
But if I were to use any one of them for realzies, the semi-auto is more effective as a defensive weapon. Throwing 25 or 30 round magazines trumps a 0.2 MOA increase in performance.
Hunting, target shooting, competition, etc the bolt gun is a better value and easier to manage.
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Pretty much sums it up. The fact that accuracy is used to describe precision in most of these types of threads, is infuriating.
Point to be taken here: most of us are not good enough.
BoringGuy45
12-17-19, 12:16
I guess the question would be, at what point would the advantages of a semi-auto outweigh that of a bolt action, or vice versa?
I guess the question would be, at what point would the advantages of a semi-auto outweigh that of a bolt action, or vice versa?
Define the task. Are you on a stalk through the mountains? Are you being called out for a hostage situation? Are you trying to win a PRS match? Are you pulling overwatch through a fourth floor window with nobody but a spotter watching your six?
Mission drives gear.
For the 99.9% or the people he it doesn’t matter.
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Anecdotal again, but I was able to hit a 1000y target with my 20" OBR 308 with the same amount of effort as with my 20" Tikka Tac A1 308.
For my at least, the semi auto seems just about as accurate as the bolt gun.
I did have a 25X scope on the OBR vs 16X on the Tikka, but both were set to roughly 15X.
A rule of thumb used to say that, for a given caliber, a bolt gun will usually have the edge over a semiauto in terms of accuracy. Given modern manufacturing techniques, does this still hold true?
As a general rule, yes.
But you can have expensive semis more accurate than cheap bolt guns.
If price is not a factor, the accuracy difference gets smaller... generally.
From what Ive seen, the lmt, larue, and kac gas guns rival $1k-$2k bolt guns in accuracy.
Ive had 4 "precision" model 700s and 1 Savage over the years. All were 308s. All averaged about .6 to .9 MOA with good ammo or handloads. With my AI anything over .6 is me. It regularly shoots sub .5 with Hornady 140 ELD-M 6.5 CM. But the barrel on my AI costs more than most of those factory rifles.
My BCM SS410 rifle can hang with those older bolt guns and averages about .75 to 1 MOA. My friends "Mk12" build is a little more accurate than mine. But neither will hang with my AI at any range.
Now practical accuracy is a different thing. A hit is a hit. Just yesterday we were shooting a 10 inch plate at 488 yards with our precision ARs. Hell I was doing it with ease using M193 (which my BCM shoots to a little under 2 MOA).
If I needed to make a single shot, at a single target, I would use my AI. If I were going to be a Designated Marksman overwatching my squad on a push into a compound, Ill take the semi auto.
OP’s key word was “Practical Accuracy”
Not setting records or getting super anal on benchrest.
Within 800 meters it is literally splitting hairs. In that mode, I would rather have something semi auto.
If we are talking something to do with niche calibers then that is a different topic.
OP’s key word was “Practical Accuracy”
Not setting records or getting super anal on benchrest.
Within 800 meters it is literally splitting hairs. In that mode, I would rather have something semi auto.
If we are talking something to do with niche calibers then that is a different topic.
Weird. The keyword you’re talking about I didn’t see at all.
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Weird. The keyword you’re talking about I didn’t see at all.
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My mistake. I was looking at C Grunt. OP said “general accuracy”.
I do think that is hair splitting still.
Coal Dragger
12-17-19, 23:26
Practical accuracy depends a lot on factors other than the precision potential of a given action, barrel, and ammo combination.
Assuming a skilled shooter is using the rifle, a top quality bolt action precision rifle will outperform a top quality semi-auto. Mechanically the bolt gun is way more rigid and that gives a big advantage in repeatable results aka precision. Helping the shooter achieve better results the bolt gun has considerably faster lock time, and the best bolt gun triggers are also way better than the best semi auto triggers for precision shooting.
How far away you want to shoot is also a factor, bolt guns make it easier to chamber more powerful flatter shooting cartridges that make going the distance easier.
Whether that makes a practical difference in results for the end user is up to the end user’s requirements.
My observation of “on general firearms accuracy” is that it is the most lied about topic by gun owners on the internet.
The stories of cheap 22s and old lever actions and beat up clunky autoloaders like Remington Models 8s with reciprocating barrels all attributed by their owners to be “MOA” guns is legion.
The funny thing is they don’t even know enough about how guns actually have accuracy limitations to know that it is obvious they are fabricating their claims.
The other most common thing is to show a single small group and exclaim “look how great my gun shoots!” Whereupon I ask what the other groups look like, preferably shot on the same piece of paper.
Crickets.
My observation of “on general firearms accuracy” is that it is the most lied about topic by gun owners on the internet.
The stories of cheap 22s and old lever actions and beat up clunky autoloaders like Remington Models 8s with reciprocating barrels all attributed by their owners to be “MOA” guns is legion.
The funny thing is they don’t even know enough about how guns actually have accuracy limitations to know that it is obvious they are fabricating their claims.
The other most common thing is to show a single small group and exclaim “look how great my gun shoots!” Whereupon I ask what the other groups look like, preferably shot on the same piece of paper.
Crickets.
You are correct, of course.
On the other hand, I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with a El Paso Weaver K4 scope that will print 3 rounds in an inch or less consistently, so I could call it a "MOA gun". 5 round groups are closer to minute of deer.
Andy
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