View Full Version : Is your 9MM good enough to bet your life on?
In the mid 80s there was a FBI shootout in Miami and a bad guy took a 9MM Silvertip Round and after doing so killed three Agents and wounded like 5 more IIRC.
This led to a Wound Ballistics Workshop at Quantico, Va. Col Martin FacklerMD set it up and sent me a copy of the minutes. Here they are:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3vWwz0ljvP5MktoU25GWGtZRjhhTzRzZXowMW9NWGlaazlJ
Google is telling me that that folder is empty...
Anyway, I'll bite:
1. The handgun is just to fight my way back to my long gun, which I never should have left in the first place... Seriously, if I were going to "bet my life" (or if I knew I would be apprehending armed robbers) then I'd be carrying a rifle.
2. This is old news. 9mm has come a long way in the last 30 years.
3. Several years back "Doc" the terminal ballistics guy argued pretty convincingly that all "service" handgun cartridges work about the same, because they don't hit hard enough to create massive temporary cavities through hydraulic effect.
4. Back in the '90s I picked .40S&W as my "standard" round. It's what most of my handguns chamber and what I shoot >90% of the time. Over 25 years later, I can't see myself ever changing.
5. I also have a .380ACP and a .38Special+P, and they have their uses/fill their niches.
try it now, I just changed the http. Don't know what happened there.
Yep, works now...
I don't want to poo-poo your thread, but these discussions/debates about which caliber is adequate/best always remind me of the hard-fought debates over on BITOG about which motor oil is best.
I just skimmed the highlighted parts...
Thoughts:
1. This is old news. Having gotten into guns in the 1990s, this was conventional wisdom by then.
2. It's a bit over-the-top. To say that bullet expansion and physics are "irrelevant" doesn't make sense. After all, expanding bullets do make bigger holes in organs, and more energy ensures that they'll penetrate further, too.
.45acp FTW. Mods, this thread can now be closed.
Why is this a thread?
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diving dave
12-21-19, 09:39
Wait wait, in before the thread lock!!!! I carried a 45 for most of my LEO career. But like a previous guy said, bullet design has come a long long way since the silvertip. We had an officer involved shooting in my city, officer fired one round of Fed 147 HST at a bad guy in a car. Bullet penetrated the right rear passenger door, entered the back of the driver seat and into the crook. He was pronounced DOA at the hospital. Not bad for a lowly 9mm. My pistol of choice now is a S&W M&P with the same load.
I didn't read it but I'm guessing 9 sucks 45 is best
In the mid 80s there was a FBI shootout in Miami and a bad guy took a 9MM Silvertip Round and after doing so killed three Agents and wounded like 5 more IIRC.
This led to a Wound Ballistics Workshop at Quantico, Va. Col Martin FacklerMD set it up and sent me a copy of the minutes. Here they are:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3vWwz0ljvP5MktoU25GWGtZRjhhTzRzZXowMW9NWGlaazlJ
Humpy- Thanks for the contribution. What's your thinking behind it, the objective for the discussion?
1. The handgun is just to fight my way back to my long gun, which I never should have left in the first place... Seriously, if I were going to "bet my life" (or if I knew I would be apprehending armed robbers) then I'd be carrying a rifle.
I used to say that a lot, and then recognized the reality that a long gun of any type would virtually never be available in the overwhelming majority of violent encounters I (and most others) was likely to have. Even at work, unless there's a prior plan or notice a long gun simply isn't in play. So, I quadrupled-down on pistol skills and put other non-precision long gun skills in maintenance mode.
2. This is old news. 9mm has come a long way in the last 30 years.
Yep. The human factors remain valid. It's certainly fair to say that the document reflects the state of the industry in 1987, 32 years of information and technology ago.
3. Several years back "Doc" the terminal ballistics guy argued pretty convincingly that all "service" handgun cartridges work about the same, because they don't hit hard enough to create massive temporary cavities through hydraulic effect.
Among some other documents, the May 2014 "Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners" from the FBI is a good quick reference.
vicious_cb
12-21-19, 16:04
Why is this a thread?
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Time warp back to the 80's, kinda like that new Wonder Woman movie.
As someone who bought into the whole .40 cal craze in the 90's/early 2000's cause 9mm was for those who were too weak to handle a caliber that starts with 4. And after everything I've learned about pistoleering over the years, I have to say, if you arent using 9mm today then you are behind the curve.
Time warp back to the 80's, kinda like that new Wonder Woman movie.
As someone who bought into the whole .40 cal craze in the 90's/early 2000's cause 9mm was for those who were too weak to handle a caliber that starts with 4. And after everything I've learned about pistoleering over the years, I have to say, if you arent using 9mm today then you are behind the curve.
I am way ahead of the curve. I carry a S&W 5906 loaded with CorBon 115grn +P in my Milt Sparks Summer Special holster.
The FBI couldn't admit that a bunch of lawyers and accountants were not gun fighters. They tried to erase terrible tactics as the true reason for them getting their asses handed to them.
To blame the out come of a whole gun fight one 1 round, is like blaming 1 donut as the reason your 80 pound over weight.
I carried 1911, until it failed me so bad that I am lucky to be alive. 8 rounds to the heart of a terrorist as he tried to cave my head in with a hatchet. My buddy saved my life by sticking his Colt commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head.
Later carry a Hi Power, I had a similar incident, terrorist jumps out grabs me as above so I can't get my Colt commando up. I started center mass, when he didn't go down I had enough rounds so that I could transition to his head and solve the problem.
In Israel for decades we were forced to carry 9mm ball ammo. Terrorist died all the time from it.
With the FBI getting into the ammo testing business all hollowpoint ammo performs within 10% of each other.
This 10% will not be what allows you to go home at night.
I own like 22 pistols and like 10 PCC. Out of the 20, 1 is a .357sig, 1 357mag, 1 45acp,1.22. Out of the 10 PCC all are 9mm
Tactics- aware of what it going on around you and have a plan on how to react
Cover- if possible get behind something that will stop bullets
Shot placement- hit them where it hurts
If you mess up any of the above you can still go home by refusing to give up. Fight until one of you is dead!
https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ
Straight Shooter
12-22-19, 15:03
Time warp back to the 80's, kinda like that new Wonder Woman movie.
As someone who bought into the whole .40 cal craze in the 90's/early 2000's cause 9mm was for those who were too weak to handle a caliber that starts with 4. And after everything I've learned about pistoleering over the years, I have to say, if you arent using 9mm today then you are behind the curve.
Many years ago..that statement woulda pissed me right off. Truth is...thats the truth. Light years better ammo, faster follow ups, more capacity, and better shooting skills all add up to dead bad guys.
But damn, I love a Glock 41 45acp still.
LewWallace
12-22-19, 16:21
People are still debating this?
People are still debating this?
Not sure what OP's intent was for the thread, hoping he will drop back in and add to the discussion.
People are still debating this?You'd be surprised
Toltepequeño
12-22-19, 21:00
I remember when this happened, it’s also been discussed on gun forums since the beginning of the civilian internet. I have to say I hadn’t seen it pop up in some years.
As people have stated, a lot has changed. It 2 ‘possums fighting with my mother’s cats multiple times, blood but ran away. I would not keep a 9. Things have changed, carry one for a while now.
You'd be surprised
Should be able to find some info here:
http://home.mcom.com/home/welcome.html
https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ
Glad somebody stuck this one in here. As he points out, it was not a failure of the Winchester Silvertip, the amount of mass penetrated was significant, and the wound proved fatal, just not immediately so. The major issue in the Miami-Dade shooting was the fact that the only one to hit anything was the BG.
I have absolutely zero issues with the 9mm ammo I carry.
I had the minutes of the workshop and just thought others might be interested in the background. I was Member #12 when the IWBA was formed and I had known Col Fackler since 1982?? when I met him at the Secret Service Academy at Beltsville and we got to be friends. He sent me the minutes not long after the workshop. I ran across them maybe 18 months back and I had a contact with the Firearms Toolmarks Examiners website and I sent the minutes to them, they scanned them and put them on their website and I thought some folks here might like the background.
I was very interested in the shooting as I was at FLETC at the time of the shooting and the Crime Scene Inv who worked it came to FLETC and gave lectures to the staff about six weeks after the shootout which was very interesting.
As someone who bought into the whole .40 cal craze in the 90's/early 2000's cause 9mm was for those who were too weak to handle a caliber that starts with 4.
Actually, my logic at the time (and still now, because I have 11 handguns and none is 9mm) was that 9mm wasn't different enought than .380ACP to be worth changing.
.40S&W seemed like a big enough difference that (1) I wouldn't ever confuse the two, and (2) the "value added" would be worth it to commit to another caliber.
By the same logic, I initially went straight from .30 Carbine to .308NATO (remember, this was a long time ago). .223/5.56 just didn't seem like it did much that .30 Carbine didn't already do.
(I now have several .223/5.56 guns, but only because it's impossible to find a modern gun chambered in .30 Carbine.)
Light years better ammo, faster follow ups, more capacity, and better shooting skills all add up to dead bad guys.
Yeah, but a Glock 19 or 17 only carries two more rounds than a comparable 22 or 23, and I think I'm fast enough with a .40 (and if I'm not, then the problem is me not practicing enough, not that .40 kicks too much).
Obviously, I'm justifying .40S&W to myself here...
I had thee Colt Gov't Mods in 9MM, all are gone, now I have a Astra 600 9MM and two Glocks in 9MM, one a 43 I carry on occasion if the SP101 is not going to be right.
I would like to have had a MP5 in semi auto till I shot one and it vents right under my nose and I didn't want to be breathing that.
If you are going to shoot 9MM you need a weapon that will take NATO 9 and not just the wimpy US commercial stuff.
NATO 9MM is so hot that the 9MM pistol spec had to be reduced from 10,000 rounds to 5,000 rounds as it wrecked every one we shot at Aberdeen.
Only 9MMs I know that will take it and keep on taking it is a Browning HP, Ruger P85, and Glocks. I think the Astra 600 might as well which is why I kept it along with the fact that right after I got it I found like 4 extra mags for it at a gun show.
Only 9MMs I know that will take it and keep on taking it is a Browning HP, Ruger P85, and Glocks...
Huh, I thought Browning Hi-Powers had a reputation for cracking frames or something? (I could easily be wrong about this.)
Everybody failed the 10,000 test. In the retest only SIG and Beretta entered as I remember. I was not on the second one, just the first one. As I remember the S&W cracked frame. The HP was not on latest 9MM. It was tested separately years before by Otto Haenel who I shared a cubicle with at Aberdeen. He told me it did fine and SMG was all they had at that time.
NATO 9MM pressure range will qualify as 9MM Proof ammo in the US. Not many designs will take a steady diet of proof ammo.
I tested the first 146 gr. 9MM made for H&K MP5s in handguns and the feed reliability was not good in handguns at that time.
I carry a G19 in 9mm, so I guess you can say I bet my life on the 9mm.
It's about as good as a service pistol round gets when you take pistol size, weight, and magazine capacity into consideration.
I consider the 9mm as a minimum cartidge, though. I carry an LCP in 380 on occasion, but penetration and expansion does not compare.
I had thee Colt Gov't Mods in 9MM, all are gone, now I have a Astra 600 9MM and two Glocks in 9MM, one a 43 I carry on occasion if the SP101 is not going to be right.
I would like to have had a MP5 in semi auto till I shot one and it vents right under my nose and I didn't want to be breathing that.
If you are going to shoot 9MM you need a weapon that will take NATO 9 and not just the wimpy US commercial stuff.
NATO 9MM is so hot that the 9MM pistol spec had to be reduced from 10,000 rounds to 5,000 rounds as it wrecked every one we shot at Aberdeen.
Only 9MMs I know that will take it and keep on taking it is a Browning HP, Ruger P85, and Glocks. I think the Astra 600 might as well which is why I kept it along with the fact that right after I got it I found like 4 extra mags for it at a gun show.Gold Dots and HST seem to work just fine.
Most guns today will handle NATO spec and most people are going to be practicing with standard commercial fmj while carrying something completely different
Everybody failed the 10,000 test. In the retest only SIG and Beretta entered as I remember. I was not on the second one, just the first one. As I remember the S&W cracked frame. The HP was not on latest 9MM. It was tested separately years before by Otto Haenel who I shared a cubicle with at Aberdeen. He told me it did fine and SMG was all they had at that time.
NATO 9MM pressure range will qualify as 9MM Proof ammo in the US. Not many designs will take a steady diet of proof ammo.
I tested the first 146 gr. 9MM made for H&K MP5s in handguns and the feed reliability was not good in handguns at that time.
When was all of this?
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When was all of this?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think this was when the military was selecting a new service pistol to replace the 1911
Actually, my logic at the time (and still now, because I have 11 handguns and none is 9mm) was that 9mm wasn't different enought than .380ACP to be worth changing.
..
Underwood .380 90 gr XTP from the 3.8 in. Barrel of my Beretta Cheetah:
5 shots.
High 1207 fps
Low 1161
Average 1186
Extreme spread 46
No bulged cases or signs of over pressure.
Hi Powers do fine with NATO ammo, but when certain people upped it by using Uzi only super hot 9mm, they did have issues .
I had thee Colt Gov't Mods in 9MM, all are gone, now I have a Astra 600 9MM and two Glocks in 9MM, one a 43 I carry on occasion if the SP101 is not going to be right.
I would like to have had a MP5 in semi auto till I shot one and it vents right under my nose and I didn't want to be breathing that.
If you are going to shoot 9MM you need a weapon that will take NATO 9 and not just the wimpy US commercial stuff.
NATO 9MM is so hot that the 9MM pistol spec had to be reduced from 10,000 rounds to 5,000 rounds as it wrecked every one we shot at Aberdeen.
Only 9MMs I know that will take it and keep on taking it is a Browning HP, Ruger P85, and Glocks. I think the Astra 600 might as well which is why I kept it along with the fact that right after I got it I found like 4 extra mags for it at a gun show.
Everybody failed the 10,000 test. In the retest only SIG and Beretta entered as I remember. I was not on the second one, just the first one. As I remember the S&W cracked frame. The HP was not on latest 9MM. It was tested separately years before by Otto Haenel who I shared a cubicle with at Aberdeen. He told me it did fine and SMG was all they had at that time.
NATO 9MM pressure range will qualify as 9MM Proof ammo in the US. Not many designs will take a steady diet of proof ammo.
I tested the first 146 gr. 9MM made for H&K MP5s in handguns and the feed reliability was not good in handguns at that time.
Humpy- Thanks for the elaboration, we have a better idea of where you're coming from now. It's good to revisit and respect our small arms history and events that brought us to current thinking and TTPs.
I think you will find that there has been more advancement in cartridge component technology, standardized scientific testing, and field performance evaluation than ever before. Even if it was valid advice at one time, there is certainly no reason to shoot 9mm NATO spec ammo, much less rely upon it exclusively. And even within that category, there is enough variation that we'd need to talk about specific cartridge p/n's. Handgun technology and reliability has also advanced substantially. While 5000 rounds is a lifetime of shooting for most gun owners, it is nothing in the lifecycle of a modern handgun, and many members here will shoot more than that in a month or two and many tens of thousands of rounds in a year.
Several threads here discuss high mileage guns, comprehensive ammo performance and reliability testing, and human performance.
On the topic of Miami, the books from Ed Mireles and W French Anderson provide better insight than the internet lore that has grown up around the day. The presentations and podcast appearances from John Hearne, as well as the discussions Tom Givens has in his classes provide much more complete and candid perspective than there has historically been.
Does anyone have any WWI or earlier spec's for 9x19? I have heard it was loaded hotter(and as a result why some Lugers won't function with US ammo) and used a truncated cone bullet, but I don't recall ever seeing any. Don't think I have seen WWII era 9x19 either, definitely not sold by the case in the last 25 years like rifle ammo of the same time frame.
The German Army was big on 9MM and then they went ape for SMGs, only problem with them was the issue 9MM was not hot enough to get the bolt open enough to eject and feed another round so they came up with 9MM SMG ammo which is all BLACK and as I remember steel cased and they had to get the word out not to run the black stuff in Lugers especially as it would wreck one in short order.
You might pull up a shell collector website and get a pic of it. I have seen it in original boxes that survived the war but don't remember having any pics of it.
Then the Brits got the Stens and same problem, ammo had to be hotter. Basically the rule of thumb was if it came packed in 64 round boxes don't put it in a handgun. The 64 round boxes that flooded the market in the 60s had no writing on them telling what it was.
Hi Powers do fine with NATO ammo, but when certain people upped it by using Uzi only super hot 9mm, they did have issues .
Yes I have some of the IMI 9MM with black tip marked for SMGs. IMI also loaded some M1911 BAll for the US Army and the velocity was supposed to be 830 and it delivered closer to 950 fps and we got cracked slides in M1911A1s from it.
IMI is excellent brass to reload.
SeriousStudent
12-23-19, 19:35
.....
On the topic of Miami, the books from Ed Mireles and W French Anderson provide better insight than the internet lore that has grown up around the day. The presentations and podcast appearances from John Hearne, as well as the discussions Tom Givens has in his classes provide much more complete and candid perspective than there has historically been.
This. If you have a chance to listen to John Hearne's presentation on the event, it's absolutely worth the time.
The German Army was big on 9MM and then they went ape for SMGs, only problem with them was the issue 9MM was not hot enough to get the bolt open enough to eject and feed another round so they came up with 9MM SMG ammo which is all BLACK and as I remember steel cased and they had to get the word out not to run the black stuff in Lugers especially as it would wreck one in short order.
You might pull up a shell collector website and get a pic of it. I have seen it in original boxes that survived the war but don't remember having any pics of it.
Then the Brits got the Stens and same problem, ammo had to be hotter. Basically the rule of thumb was if it came packed in 64 round boxes don't put it in a handgun. The 64 round boxes that flooded the market in the 60s had no writing on them telling what it was.
Yes I have some of the IMI 9MM with black tip marked for SMGs. IMI also loaded some M1911 BAll for the US Army and the velocity was supposed to be 830 and it delivered closer to 950 fps and we got cracked slides in M1911A1s from it.
IMI is excellent brass to reload.
Tried a different way of searching and found a picture that indicates it was truncated:
https://ammosquared.com/a-condensed-history-of-the-9mm-cartridge/
Specs I have found touted from the beginning up through sometime in the 1940's indicate 8 gram/124 grain @ 327 m/s(1073fps) which doesn't sound particularly screaming hot.
Used to see some British 9x19(seems like Hirtenberger produced) that was advertised for use in open bolt SMG's, not for use in any pistols, and had allegedly been developed for sub freezing temps.
SeriousStudent
12-23-19, 22:33
Is there a link to it?
I am not aware of a link to it on the web. He has presented it in the past at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference, which is where I have heard it.
John is an instructor for the National Park Police, and a very skilled researcher, I have always gained a great deal of knowledge from his work.
No 11 looks like the rounds I saw and may even have somewhere.
Straight Shooter
12-24-19, 06:05
I had thee Colt Gov't Mods in 9MM, all are gone, now I have a Astra 600 9MM and two Glocks in 9MM, one a 43 I carry on occasion if the SP101 is not going to be right.
I would like to have had a MP5 in semi auto till I shot one and it vents right under my nose and I didn't want to be breathing that.
If you are going to shoot 9MM you need a weapon that will take NATO 9 and not just the wimpy US commercial stuff.
NATO 9MM is so hot that the 9MM pistol spec had to be reduced from 10,000 rounds to 5,000 rounds as it wrecked every one we shot at Aberdeen.
Only 9MMs I know that will take it and keep on taking it is a Browning HP, Ruger P85, and Glocks. I think the Astra 600 might as well which is why I kept it along with the fact that right after I got it I found like 4 extra mags for it at a gun show.
Not having read the entire thread, are you referring to the Winchester White Box NATO load?
Not sure but don't think they would be selling the NATO spec stuff. do a search for 9MM NATO STANAG.
If you shoot normal 9MM ball and you get the NATO stuff first thing you will wonder is the slide going to come off the back and hit me in the mouth ! ! ! !!
Not sure but don't think they would be selling the NATO spec stuff. do a search for 9MM NATO STANAG.
If you shoot normal 9MM ball and you get the NATO stuff first thing you will wonder is the slide going to come off the back and hit me in the mouth ! ! ! !!
No. NATO is fine.
Not having read the entire thread, are you referring to the Winchester White Box NATO load?
Not sure but don't think they would be selling the NATO spec stuff. do a search for 9MM NATO STANAG.
If you shoot normal 9MM ball and you get the NATO stuff first thing you will wonder is the slide going to come off the back and hit me in the mouth ! ! ! !!
No. NATO is fine.
Again, saying "9mm NATO" doesn't mean much without the details. It's a standard with specified ranges, which include some non-functional production standards, and what you get depends on what you have. Domestically produced 882, and 882 production that meets commercial spec but is only NATO-ish (like the Win load) is commonly available and not a big deal. "9mm NATO" variants may not be any more brisk to shoot than a number of other commercially available loads in common weights and velocities, some less.
I still have like maybe 800 rounds of Hirtenburger L7A1 9mm stashed for a rainy day.
Many people have erroneously believed that HP's 124 gr. +P+ (usually marked "HV") rounds are the "submachinegun" rounds- and this is flatly incorrect. These rounds are designed for pistols, whereas the SMG rounds are not.
Hirtenberger has produced two types of SMG ammunition. Both were developed on request for the British Ministry Of Defence:
L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it. It was replaced with:
L12A1- This ammunition is substantially similar, but uses a slightly reduced charge in order to stay under the 50,000 PSI NATO maximum pressure specs.
Both of these rounds feature a 124-grain FMJ ball bullet, and produce a maximum velocity of about 1,500 fps.
Contrary to popular belief, these rounds were not designed for arctic conditions, nor were they developed for the Sterling SMG. They were designed for use in H&K MP5 series SMGs. Although they were undoubtedly tested under arctic conditions, the use of the term "adverse conditions" in its designation is more euphemistic than anything else.
In terms of the commercial availability of these rounds, the MOD released 12 million rounds of L7A1 ammunition as surplus. Since the ammunition is packaged in a 1,200 round case, this means that 10,000 cases were released. Since HP refuses to sell this ammunition to the public, and only produced L7A1 in 1990, 1991, and 1992, and only for the British contract, that means that the entire world's supply consists of 10,000 cases.
Likewise, within several months of release, BATF banned the importation of the ammunition, due to its being unsafe for use in handguns. This second fact makes the ammunition even more rare in the United States.
If offered this ammunition for sale, view the offer skeptically, as the above-mentioned facts limit the actual availability of such ammunition- and likewise, a considerable amount of the ammunition imported into the United States has undoubtedly been fired already by its owners.
Beware of attempts to sell ammunition which is falsely advertised as " Hirt SMG ammo ". Many dealers, either due to ignorance or fraudulence, will sell standard Hirtenberger ammunition and claim that it is the SMG rounds.
L7A1 ammunition can be identified by its headstamps:
'HP' (for Hirtenberger Patronen)
'90', '91', or '92' (year of production)
'L7A1' (ammunition type)
NATO proof mark (a circle with a cross inside)
If the headstamp doesn't contain "L7A1", it is NOT the SMG rounds.
We evaluated what was reported and used the Miami FBI shooting incident as a training model. There was a lot to be learned from the incident and I believe there still is.
I read the attachment in Humpy70's post and agree with what I read in the highlighted areas. I've seen a few people after they were shot with 9mm 115g +P+, one shot with Silvertips, two shot with Hyda Shok and one shot with Winchester 147g HP. The Winchester 147g HP impressed me the most.
I haven't seen any of the cartridges shot into ballistic gelatin, but have been told the +P+ was the most impressive when tested. The outcome of the gelatin test results and results after use in the field were very different.
The only thing I would bet my life on is a working field radio and a battleship with 16" guns on call. For a handgun, the 9mm should do it's job if I do my job.
The only thing I would bet my life on is a working field radio and a battleship with 16" guns on call. For a handgun, the 9mm should do it's job if I do my job.
F16 and Apaches, also can save your life. Been there, done that. G-D bless pilots.
In the mid 80s there was a FBI shootout in Miami and a bad guy took a 9MM Silvertip Round and after doing so killed three Agents and wounded like 5 more IIRC.
This led to a Wound Ballistics Workshop at Quantico, Va. Col Martin FacklerMD set it up and sent me a copy of the minutes. Here they are:
]
In 2019, that doc is of essentially no value to making choices on modern JHPs in common duty loads. Due to considerable improvements in understanding and design, the terminal ballistics characteristics between modern JHPs in common duty loads is minimal enough (but not identical) that the increased capacity, reduced recoil, etc makes the 9mm an excellent choice. Still, pistol rnds in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers. The seminal doc on that was:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA July 14, 1989
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
The 80's called, they want their pistols back.
The FBI couldn't admit that a bunch of lawyers and accountants were not gun fighters. They tried to erase terrible tactics as the true reason for them getting their asses handed to them.
To blame the out come of a whole gun fight one 1 round, is like blaming 1 donut as the reason your 80 pound over weight.
I carried 1911, until it failed me so bad that I am lucky to be alive. 8 rounds to the heart of a terrorist as he tried to cave my head in with a hatchet. My buddy saved my life by sticking his Colt commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head.
Later carry a Hi Power, I had a similar incident, terrorist jumps out grabs me as above so I can't get my Colt commando up. I started center mass, when he didn't go down I had enough rounds so that I could transition to his head and solve the problem.
In Israel for decades we were forced to carry 9mm ball ammo. Terrorist died all the time from it.
With the FBI getting into the ammo testing business all hollowpoint ammo performs within 10% of each other.
This 10% will not be what allows you to go home at night.
I own like 22 pistols and like 10 PCC. Out of the 20, 1 is a .357sig, 1 357mag, 1 45acp,1.22. Out of the 10 PCC all are 9mm
Tactics- aware of what it going on around you and have a plan on how to react
Cover- if possible get behind something that will stop bullets
Shot placement- hit them where it hurts
If you mess up any of the above you can still go home by refusing to give up. Fight until one of you is dead!
If I may interject, does not sound like the 1911 let you down but the .45ACP (ball?) ammo it fired did. Reading that not uncommon experience reminds me how tough the human animal can be, pistol rnds in all typical calibers are poor man stoppers, and it often take a long gun to put the goblin down.
Is that an accurate assessment?
Will
First I know pistols suck.
The problem isn't the ammo 45acp ball at the time. No the problem is the number of rounds you can carry in the magazine. That is a platform failure in my book. If you have to reload after 7 or 8 rounds, I now view this as a substandard platform based on 2 incidents in my life.
Shoot them a bunch of times center mass, then transition up to the head is what was needed.
1911 failed at this, Hi Power didn't.
Will
First I know pistols suck.
I know you know and experienced it first hand! When you gonna write a book?
The problem isn't the ammo 45acp ball at the time. No the problem is the number of rounds you can carry in the magazine. That is a platform failure in my book. If you have to reload after 7 or 8 rounds, I now view this as a substandard platform based on 2 incidents in my life.
Shoot them a bunch of times center mass, then transition up to the head is what was needed.
1911 failed at this, Hi Power didn't.
Ah, got it, but I think that brings us full circle to why the 9mm is a good choice: the differences in terminal ballistics is minimal between typical duty loads, so the pistol that holds the higher capacity (1911 vs Hi Power in this case) is likely the better choice.
There's some double stack .45's out there of course with higher capacity than the 1911, but still short of the 16-18nds one gets in modern pistols and are big guns.
Will I found pistols are like this. If I do my job with good hits, they might do their job and put the person down. But if good center mass shots don't do the job, then you need enough bullets to transition to head shots.
About the book, I have 2 issues with it. First I am way to busy to find the time to do it. Second it will be a few more years before I could legally even think of it. No 3 issues, I just am not built that way. I think that guys right books for 3 reasons and in no order of significant; money, fame, therapy of a type.
I don't need the money, I have lived too long in shadows to seek fame,(internet let's me share knowledge with out being really well know. I use secure network, VPN and other things when I use my computer), therapy. My therapy is two fold the Torah and then once in a while getting together with people I know from my past either Americans or Israelis in some 3rd world county on a private beach in front of the villa we rented. Great Scotch or Rum, great cigars and food. Getting drunk for 1 night, like we were still 24 years old.
So no book, unless we write a novel together one day.
Will I found pistols are like this. If I do my job with good hits, they might do their job and put the person down. But if good center mass shots don't do the job, then you need enough bullets to transition to head shots.
About the book, I have 2 issues with it. First I am way to busy to find the time to do it. Second it will be a few more years before I could legally even think of it. No 3 issues, I just am not built that way. I think that guys right books for 3 reasons and in no order of significant; money, fame, therapy of a type.
I don't need the money, I have lived too long in shadows to seek fame,(internet let's me share knowledge with out being really well know. I use secure network, VPN and other things when I use my computer), therapy. My therapy is two fold the Torah and then once in a while getting together with people I know from my past either Americans or Israelis in some 3rd world county on a private beach in front of the villa we rented. Great Scotch or Rum, great cigars and food. Getting drunk for 1 night, like we were still 24 years old.
So no book, unless we write a novel together one day.
Rgr rgr to the above. Writing a book might be in the form of a co author who gets it done in your own words, and or, maybe something else, like an interview, or even "fictional" that's based on close to truth. If I knew more about the topic, I'd send a character off to Israel or the ME. There's also a possible #4, which is through such avenues you can teach people things. For example, I try and add historical events to my stuff in hopes it may inspire them to learn more about the topics, and some times they do. That's satisfying.
I normally carry a Beretta M81FS 12+1 .32 / 7.65mm. FMJ ammo.
I find it enjoyable to shoot and carry, it's safe and reliable, and holds a good number of bullets.
So no, I dont think a gun carried for defense by non-law enforcement needs to be 9x19.
I think 9x19's greatest strength over weaker cartridges is it's ability penetrate stuff (gear, walls, auto's, etc) and do a little better at longer distances. (50m, 100m, etc)
daddyusmaximus
12-26-19, 10:11
1. The handgun is just to fight my way back to my long gun, which I never should have left in the first place...
Going back to the first reply you got... here is your answer...
ALL handguns are a compromise.
We carry them because they are small, and relatively uncumbersome. They can be easily concealed for daily carry so as not to scare delicate people.
Were it not for that, and the fact that doing daily chores with a rifle slung over you shoulder is a PITA, we'd all (at least I would) be walking around like we did on the FOB in Iraq. But yeah, these days pretty much any decent 9mm handgun is good enough... provided you are good at using it... and get the opportunity to do so... and keep doing so til the threat is down.
The 9mm Silvertip did its job in that fight. What didn't do its job was some agents using tactics they must have learned from watching "Miami Vice" against hardcore felons with rifles who weren't impressed with handguns and FBI raid jackets.
Then FBI leadership doubled down on the fail by blaming equipment for the failure of their agents' lack of situational awareness, which isn't anything new for the FBI leadership. This in a roundabout way is how we got the .40 S&W.
I truly believe that the FBI moving back to using the 9mm is less about bullet performance and more about the fact that time and has allowed all principals involved to retire and move on without scrutiny and the new leadership would rather create their own failures than rehash history.
Bad tactics on the part of lawyers and accountants plus long guns, IIRC MP5's and shotguns locked in the trunks.
Not a fan of shotguns other than breaching doors, but a fan of 9mm shoulder fired weapons, for covert missions.
Big fan of small compact 9mm PCC, not so much MP5 fullsized rather have a rifle caliber.
Bad tactics on the part of lawyers and accountants plus long guns, IIRC MP5's and shotguns locked in the trunks.
Not a fan of shotguns other than breaching doors, but a fan of 9mm shoulder fired weapons, for covert missions.
Big fan of small compact 9mm PCC, not so much MP5 fullsized rather have a rifle caliber.
We studied this years ago and I remember one of the big takeaways was that if it wasn't on your person when it hit the fan then it would more than likely not come into play. Hence the long guns locked in the trunk except for Ed Mireles' shotgun, who was the only one to use his. One of the agents sat his pistol on the seat and subsequently lost it when they crashed the vehicle.
Will
First I know pistols suck.
The problem isn't the ammo 45acp ball at the time. No the problem is the number of rounds you can carry in the magazine. That is a platform failure in my book. If you have to reload after 7 or 8 rounds, I now view this as a substandard platform based on 2 incidents in my life.
Shoot them a bunch of times center mass, then transition up to the head is what was needed.
1911 failed at this, Hi Power didn't.
I agree strongly with Yoni here. For 20 years I carried a compact. 45 1911. Seven rounds. Then I got nervous, retired it, and got a 9mm that holds 18 rounds. More = better and you stay alive.
I am way ahead of the curve. I carry a S&W 5906 loaded with CorBon 115grn +P in my Milt Sparks Summer Special holster.
Im not finished with this thread , but you go big big boy. I owned one, trigger was .....
PB
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