View Full Version : Ultimate suppressed charging handles
MrHandsome
12-21-19, 08:11
Been looking for a new suppressed charging handle. I’ve seen mixed reviews on the radian raptor SD, Geissee SCH and just came across PRI new ambi gas buster. Gas mitigation is the #1 concern while still keeping it ambi. Anyone have experience?
Like you I am looking for the same. I have watched all the reviews and read everything I can find about SD charging handles.
Came up with multiple sources comparing the Radian SD to the Geissele SCH and they reported the Geissele did a better job.
I went with the SCH airborne from G. If it will ever come in.
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Save your sheckles and follow this oldie but goodie:
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/do-it-yourself-gas-buster-charging-handle
I say this having owned the ACH and Radian products. The ACH on sale from G is a good option if you need a new handle.. but for existing rifles that have improved CH just throw the auto gasket on it. Spend the savings on ammo..
I have tried a handful of charging handles, and the ones that do the best job on gas are the PRI Gasbuster handles. The close second for me are the old style BCM handles.
Really wish PRI did an ambi CH. I've pretty much standardized on the Geissele, though.
Really wish PRI did an ambi CH. I've pretty much standardized on the Geissele, though.
I think they do. They have lots of charging handle shapes as well.
https://www.precisionreflex.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1423440&CAT=4293
MrHandsome
12-21-19, 10:49
PRI does but I can’t find any reviews or information on it.
https://www.precisionreflex.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1423443&CAT=4293
Wait for ours in early 2020 ;)
I have tried a handful of charging handles, and the ones that do the best job on gas are the PRI Gasbuster handles. The close second for me are the old style BCM handles.
Have you tried either Geissele?
Wait for ours in early 2020 ;)
You keep saying stuff like this! We need more details on this and the ambi lower...
Have you tried either Geissele?Yes, the open back let out a lot of gas.
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We shoot a lot of suppressed ARs and AR-10s. I've never had a need for a special Charging handle on any gun for suppression. It's BCM Gunfighters on almost all the guns.
hotrodder636
12-21-19, 13:11
That is all I have...BCM Gunfighters-Medium latch on all of mine 5.56 to 300BLK. I really don’t notice the GTF too much if at all.
We shoot a lot of suppressed ARs and AR-10s. I've never had a need for a special Charging handle on any gun for suppression. It's BCM Gunfighters on almost all the guns.
MrHandsome
12-21-19, 13:28
The geissele SCH and ACH both look like they have a raised lip in the back to block the gas
The geissele SCH and ACH both look like they have a raised lip in the back to block the gas
They do.
Wait for ours in early 2020 ;)
By the first of April ???
Has anyone had a chance to use the new Daniel Defense charging handle shooting suppressed. DD charging handle Vid review below.
https://youtu.be/j1oynJrypDg
me2hootyhoo
12-21-19, 19:20
Has anyone had a chance to use the new Daniel Defense charging handle shooting suppressed. DD charging handle Vid review below.
https://youtu.be/j1oynJrypDg
I’m interested in this one too
me2hootyhoo
12-21-19, 19:21
Wait for ours in early 2020 ;)
Do you have an exact release date?
Inkslinger
12-21-19, 19:23
There’s always DIY.
https://www.google.com/search?q=rvt+sealant+ar15+charging+handle&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
MrHandsome
12-21-19, 19:36
So at the moment which is better the ACH or SD-SL.....
me2hootyhoo
12-21-19, 19:49
Well, its my birthday and I’m a few drinks in. So I ordered the DD. I will buy a FCD as well. I’ll report back.
We shoot a lot of suppressed ARs and AR-10s. I've never had a need for a special Charging handle on any gun for suppression.
Same for myself.
MrHandsome
12-21-19, 20:09
Happy birthday sunshine enjoy your double Ds
You can try a gas vent as well, I just installed one but still waiting on my Form 4, so no opinion yet.
https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html
jimmyheadgear
12-22-19, 07:45
http://armageddontactical.com/GMS-15-EVO-Charging-Handle_p_19.html
This one is better than their Gen 2 model.
If the gas to the face is really bad I would recommend swapping your gas tube to one of Black River Tacticals EZTUNE Gas Tube. Thye make a huge difference in an overgased gun - http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/customtune-gas-port/#!/BRT-EZTUNE-Gas-Tube-Carbine/p/103167251
If the gas to the face is really bad I would recommend swapping your gas tube to one of Black River Tacticals EZTUNE Gas Tube. Thye make a huge difference in an overgased gun - http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/customtune-gas-port/#!/BRT-EZTUNE-Gas-Tube-Carbine/p/103167251
BRT is making some pretty cool things. Wish I heard from about them before I spent money.
I bought a Bootleg tactical adjustable BCG for my DD 10.3” barrel. Barrel was bought in 2011 or 2012 and not shot much since I live in a state that doesn’t allow SBR’s. I am TDY in the south and was able to bring the rifle and SWR SPECWAR suppressor with me.
me2hootyhoo
12-28-19, 17:54
DD grip n rip arrived today. It’s an impressive built handle. Nice machining, rounded edges, beefy latch with and aggressive angle. It appears to be built to fit into the upper receiver more tightly than a standard charging handle. There is less angle cut from the top edges of the body to fill the space I’m assuming.
The actual handles are tough to operate while playing with it. Noticeably harder to actuate than any other charging handle I’ve handled. Once installed though, it’s perfect, feels solid, pulls easy and locks in tight. There is a gas vent drilled into the passenger side in front of the handle latch.
Just got it tonight, hoping to get it out tomorrow. Will update.
Using charging handles to control excess gas is like using heavy buffers and springs to control gas.
If excess gas is the problem, it's best to correct the gas directly, rather than mask the symptoms.
me2hootyhoo
12-28-19, 21:15
Using charging handles to control excess gas is like using heavy buffers and springs to control gas.
If excess gas is the problem, it's best to correct the gas directly, rather than mask the symptoms.
What’s the perfect setup? Is there a gas port that allows function on both ends with no excessive gas to the user? From what I’ve been reading, the can holds the gases etc etc (stuff I can’t remember). So there is always going to be gas coming back essentially.
I have all quality firearms with nearly same gas ports, DD, BCM, centurion, and one PSA premium FN barrel that should have the same gas port as the others. So none should be over gassed by any means. They all run smoothly. H2 buffers and Sprinco blue springs.
I recently got my first suppressor, omega with a 556 end cap and direct thread. I run it on a ergp Sionics. Even with the ergp, I still notice a slight bit more gas coming back than a non suppressed setup. Not bad at all. No complaints. So I have more suppressors on the way, and plan on being able to run my other guns suppressed and non suppressed reliably. I’m figuring a nice charging handle won’t hurt a thing on these guns.
So I guess what I’m asking, is, are you recommending modifying these gas systems from where they are now? I know SOL says theirs are setup perfectly for suppressed/non-suppressed, and as far as I can tell, BCM, DD and few others are running near/exact same gas ports.
MrHandsome
12-28-19, 22:15
Agreed a charging handle isn’t the solution to over gassing from a suppressor but it sure helps. The over gassing of a gun as a whole won’t be solved by any single component but the sum of components. Specialized charging handles, buffer springs, buffers, bcg, gas blocks, forward assists among other things. So there’s no reason not to add something specialized that will aid in fine tunning your build for potential overgassing from suppressor use, every little bit can help.
ACF as designed had a gas venting port. It was subsequently removed for couple of reasons:
1. In testing, we couldn't discern the difference of gas blow back between with the port closed and open.
2. ACF's gas deflection fence works very well in redirecting the gas, which makes the gas venting port redundant (had it worked to our satisfaction, it didn't).
3. Multiple patents that this feature could possibly infringe on. By the time we were testing it, the port was already going away, we were curious how well it worked.
The gas deflection feature isn't new, I think we did a good job with it by doing things a little differently, but it's not the reason ACF was made, it's one of its minor features.
In testing, there was enough reduction of gas blow back for us to render the opinion it was worth going forward to production with. I'm not too fond of the screw, but in the absence of more complicated mechanism, a screw is simple and effective.
The advent of ACF (Ambidextrous Charging handle, Forward Controls) may well eliminate the over pressure relief feature on UFF v2. To wit, ACF prototypes were tested on conventional uppers without the over pressure relief port (we had to, most uppers don't have this feature), and it was found to reduce gas to the face quite effectively. ACF doesn't have a gas venting hole in the production model. The prototypes do, but that feature will not make it to production, as we couldn't positively identify the difference between shooting with the ACF port open and closed (with a piece of tape).
The huge clearance below the URF v2's shell deflector will remain, as it's dictated by the need to be compatible with LMT's MARS-L lower.
Quoting Duffy, found this on TOS from last month after doing a quick search. Cool info both on the upper and the reason for the space below the deflector.
I somehow missed this from the FCD URF v2 page: “Also new in v2 is LMT MARS receiver compatibility. URF v2's shell deflector has been re-contoured to accommodate MARS receiver's right side bolt catch/release.”
I like everything about this. My only hang up is a personal one: price. $255 with LDFA, ejection port cover, and forward assist is a chunk of change, though I am not suggesting it isn’t worth it.
In fairness, this matches the MARS-L lower without all the required small parts (which I just purchased from FCD last week to complete my new MARS-L). It’s not at all unreasonable, but does require a pause when one has quality options in standard mil-spec guise for as low as $50-120, and the new BCM (which is, for the reason addressed in FCD’s design of the URF v2, not an option for me) for $130. One could always drop the forward assist spot and therefore the LDFA to save ~$50... Dang it. I’m going to have to think about that for my suppressed upper.
Duffy, is the receiver oversized at all like BCM and Bootleg to facilitate a slightly tighter barrel fit?
I do think this demonstrates the benefit to mass production as capable by Aero Precision and BCM. I wish this design would be used by an OEM in a line of complete uppers or something.
The BCM Mk2 upper I got for testing compatibility with our RHF and RHF4 (quad rails) has a very tight barrel nut fit, I couldn't get my Centurion Arms barrel to go in. URF v2 isn't under bored to do that. The Mk2 upper receiver is incompatible with RHF and RHF4.
Many of FCD products are more expensive than their mass produced counterparts. We're a small company and run things in small batches. It makes per unit cost higher, but does give us the freedom to quickly and continuously make changes and improvements as we see fit, which matters to us more than lower cost.
2020 URF v2 will do away with the gas venting port below the shell deflector. Not enough folks use it, and with its elimination, we can bring URF v2's MSRP back to v1 level, as we will no longer be required to pay the licensing fee to have that feature.
The main point is that any fundamental gas drive issues should be addressed first.
That will have more effect than any handle, vent or buffer.
Once the gas drive is set properly, a nice charging handle won't hurt anything, but won't be needed either.
The perfect setup is a big question and depends on what you're trying to do.
There are 3 basic tuning points for gas drive.
1) normal unsuppressed
2) dedicated suppressed
3) 50/50 mixed suppressed
#1 is a normal sized port.
#2 is a much smaller port
#3 is somewhere in-between
Most of the big names mentioned are gassed toward the strong side of the normal range.
This allows them to run weak ammo and/or heavy buffers in all conditions.
This works great for the user who never shoots suppressed.
However, a switched on user running top quality parts and mostly 5.56 ammo has few easy options when adding a suppressor.
The gun will already cycle the heaviest buffer unsuppressed, so that's not much help either.
Dropping gas drive with options #2 or #3 allows running a normal weight buffer with the ability to "buffer up" when running mixed.
Also very important but often overlooked is the overlap in function between normal and suppressed port sizes depends heavily on the actual gas system configuration. (gas system length vs barrel length)
What’s the perfect setup? Is there a gas port that allows function on both ends with no excessive gas to the user? From what I’ve been reading, the can holds the gases etc etc (stuff I can’t remember). So there is always going to be gas coming back essentially.
I have all quality firearms with nearly same gas ports, DD, BCM, centurion, and one PSA premium FN barrel that should have the same gas port as the others. So none should be over gassed by any means. They all run smoothly. H2 buffers and Sprinco blue springs.
I recently got my first suppressor, omega with a 556 end cap and direct thread. I run it on a ergp Sionics. Even with the ergp, I still notice a slight bit more gas coming back than a non suppressed setup. Not bad at all. No complaints. So I have more suppressors on the way, and plan on being able to run my other guns suppressed and non suppressed reliably. I’m figuring a nice charging handle won’t hurt a thing on these guns.
So I guess what I’m asking, is, are you recommending modifying these gas systems from where they are now? I know SOL says theirs are setup perfectly for suppressed/non-suppressed, and as far as I can tell, BCM, DD and few others are running near/exact same gas ports.
me2hootyhoo
12-29-19, 14:35
The main point is that any fundamental gas drive issues should be addressed first.
That will have more effect than any handle, vent or buffer.
Once the gas drive is set properly, a nice charging handle won't hurt anything, but won't be needed either.
The perfect setup is a big question and depends on what you're trying to do.
There are 3 basic tuning points for gas drive.
1) normal unsuppressed
2) dedicated suppressed
3) 50/50 mixed suppressed
#1 is a normal sized port.
#2 is a much smaller port
#3 is somewhere in-between
Most of the big names mentioned are gassed toward the strong side of the normal range.
This allows them to run weak ammo and/or heavy buffers in all conditions.
This works great for the user who never shoots suppressed.
However, a switched on user running top quality parts and mostly 5.56 ammo has few easy options when adding a suppressor.
The gun will already cycle the heaviest buffer unsuppressed, so that's not much help either.
Dropping gas drive with options #2 or #3 allows running a normal weight buffer with the ability to "buffer up" when running mixed.
Also very important but often overlooked is the overlap in function between normal and suppressed port sizes depends heavily on the actual gas system configuration. (gas system length vs barrel length)
So, would you recommend making changes to any of those manufacturers gas systems? Even if not running suppressed?
So, would you recommend making changes to any of those manufacturers gas systems? Even if not running suppressed?
Probably not as you wont notice it as much and if you do you can use a heavier buffer. Once you put a can on a gun you realize how over gassed most barrels are. Some are literally blow holes.
I would add that you may want to pick up the 30 cal end cap for your Omega (sico end of the year sale) if you dont already have one. By tightening the bore end of the can you are pushing more gas out the action, actually making the sound at the ear lowder. An omega with a 30 cal end cap on a 556 gun will be louder db wise at the muzzle but the shooter won't notice = less noise & less gas to the face.
LewWallace
12-29-19, 15:34
Experienced combat vets using suppressors advise....take a deep breath, hold it, and fire away suppressed. If the smoke clears, take a breath. If not, suck it up. A DI system is always going to blow back gasses into your face, no matter that whiz bang gizmo people are selling you will say.
MrHandsome
12-29-19, 20:07
Or just tune your machine to work better, they make different specialized parts for these issues. And when combined will add up to a less gassy and more pleasant shooting experience.
Like you I am looking for the same. I have watched all the reviews and read everything I can find about SD charging handles.
Came up with multiple sources comparing the Radian SD to the Geissele SCH and they reported the Geissele did a better job.
I went with the SCH airborne from G.
I also went with an SLR-7, LMT E BCG, and Vltor A5. Basically chose parts that are designed for suppressed use and hopefully they will all work together to make for a smooth and minimal gas to the face ordeal.
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MrHandsome
12-30-19, 04:31
How’s the LMT E bcg compared to something like the bootleg or gemteck bcg?
jackblack73
12-30-19, 16:30
I would add that you may want to pick up the 30 cal end cap for your Omega (sico end of the year sale) if you dont already have one. By tightening the bore end of the can you are pushing more gas out the action, actually making the sound at the ear lowder. An omega with a 30 cal end cap on a 556 gun will be louder db wise at the muzzle but the shooter won't notice = less noise & less gas to the face.
I was going to say the same. I have an Omega with 30 cal end cap and never notice gas using an 11.5” 5.56 and 9” 300blk. Both BCMs.
Using charging handles to control excess gas is like using heavy buffers and springs to control gas.
If excess gas is the problem, it's best to correct the gas directly, rather than mask the symptoms.
IMHO, this is the correct answer. If you want to add one of the better charging handles to go along with, go for it.
me2hootyhoo
12-30-19, 17:51
I was going to say the same. I have an Omega with 30 cal end cap and never notice gas using an 11.5” 5.56 and 9” 300blk. Both BCMs.
I’ve never noticed gas until I got the suppressor of course. I’ve used it with both end caps, I’ll have to pay attention to see if I can tell a difference. Even with the ergp barrel, I actually noticed smoke coming from the top of the charging handle (Raptor). It’s not bad, but I was getting some gas up by my face that I’ve never had before.
MrHandsome
12-31-19, 06:16
So it sounds like the geissele sch or ach is the way to go. No it won’t fix the issue of gas but it seems to help from what I’m hearing. PRI seems the best with has but lacks in all other areas. And reviews on the raptor SD seem to carry too greatly. That coupled with a adj bcg or gas block might just do the trick.
MrHandsome
12-31-19, 06:16
and For what it’s worth the new BCM MK2 upper seems to be suppressor optimized.
titsonritz
05-18-20, 14:24
Wait for ours in early 2020 ;)
Any update on the release of your CH?
Yep, going to production soon ;)
It's been shown and discussed in our closed FB group. So nobody can say we're turning this to a topic about us, this pic shows some of its features and we'll leave it at that.
62473
and For what it’s worth the new BCM MK2 upper seems to be suppressor optimized.
PRI Gas Buster is king.
With the BCM Mk2 upper, the PRI Gas Buster definitely works better than the older BCM Gunfighter I have. I was surpised how much gas went up when I switched to the Gunfighter. It was just laying around from an old gun that got caniballized, so nothing lost. Back to the PRI I go.
Can somebody explain to me why so much gas hits the charging handle area, anyhow? Since it comes from the bore, I would expect it to just go out the ejection port, with the BCG being an obstruction to rearward expansion. Unless of course, it escapes in large amounts past the bolt tail somehow. Maybe I’m a simpleton.
titsonritz
05-19-20, 17:31
Yep, going to production soon ;)
It's been shown and discussed in our closed FB group. So nobody can say we're turning this to a topic about us, this pic shows some of its features and we'll leave it at that.
62473
Thanks for the update, I'll keep my eye open for it.
Can somebody explain to me why so much gas hits the charging handle area, anyhow? Since it comes from the bore, I would expect it to just go out the ejection port, with the BCG being an obstruction to rearward expansion. Unless of course, it escapes in large amounts past the bolt tail somehow. Maybe I’m a simpleton.
My wild guess is that there's some gas pushed out of the gas tube in the upper which is right in line with the charging handle.
In slow motion video, you can see gas venting through the gas ports on the carrier, and continues to do so after it's passed the ejection port opening. After that point, it's venting inside the upper and lower. The exits are typically the charging handle opening and forward assist's opening for the plunger.
Not a charging handle replacement or anything (and I don't mean to derail the thread) but I've had good results with this device: https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html
In slow motion video, you can see gas venting through the gas ports on the carrier, and continues to do so after it's passed the ejection port opening. After that point, it's venting inside the upper and lower. The exits are typically the charging handle opening and forward assist's opening for the plunger.
Ok, thanks. That makes sense. And it explains why the below exists. I’ve always wondered if a carrier with the vents moved aft like half a millimeter would work for a full-time suppressed gun.
Not a charging handle replacement or anything (and I don't mean to derail the thread) but I've had good results with this device: https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html
titsonritz
05-19-20, 21:55
Not a charging handle replacement or anything (and I don't mean to derail the thread) but I've had good results with this device: https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html
Those look like they might suck shooting left-handed.
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