View Full Version : Two Primary Arms optics approved for duty use
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/12/06/primary-arms-optics-approved-for-duty-use-by-pasadena-police-department/
The Pasadena Police dept of Houston, TX, approved these 2 Primary Arms sights for duty use:
(1) 1x20 illum. prism sight with ACSS reticle
(2) SLx Advanced Push Button Microdot Red Dot
This has come up in a few various threads in the last year, but I'll say it again: I don't think it's any longer the case that you have to spend in excess of $700-$800 for an RDS + mount, in order to get a reliable sight. A variety of folks from Travis Haley, to Kyle DeFoor, and others, have been running various RDS or LPV's from various companies including Vortex, Primary Arms, and Holosun. And starting to see a few departments adopting PA sights for duty use. For the guys running these, I'm not hearing them say things like "I only run this on range guns." Personally I can afford to get another Aimpoint if I wanted one, and I do like their reliability and long battery life, but those are no longer features unique to them only. I used to get only Aimpoint for red dots, but dissatisfaction with the red dot clarity on my T1's and T2's led me to look around last year, and was pleasantly surprised to find several optics that have as good or better features, improved dot clarity, lower cost, and good reliability. Currently I'm running the PA 1x20 prism sight with ACSS. That sight is the best 1x I've had and can get superior accuracy (partially due to the diopter which lets me adjust it for my vision, and partly due to the precision of the ACSS reticle design) with it as well as quick hits.
gunnerblue
12-23-19, 14:43
Not to disparage any of PA’s products, as I’ve never used one, but I wonder how much of this was do to budget restraints? My own organization authorizes SIG Romeos as a cheaper alternative to T1’s and T2’s.
Not to disparage any of PA’s products, as I’ve never used one, but I wonder how much of this was do to budget restraints? My own organization authorizes SIG Romeos as a cheaper alternative to T1’s and T2’s.
I think that is possible--hard to know, but would make sense. I think if there weren't known folks in the training industry using them, it would be less solid ground.
Yuck. Just because they are approved doesn’t make it a prudent option.
Yuck. Just because they are approved doesn’t make it a prudent option.
And I didn't say "Just because they approved it that makes it a prudent option." Along with the use of optics like these by trainers like Haley, DeFoor, Pannone, and others, this is an ADDED data point that basically, people are using these sights on serious usage rifles.
Might also want to keep in mind that Primary Arms is headquartered in Houston, so connections might also come into play.
Might also want to keep in mind that Primary Arms is headquartered in Houston, so connections might also come into play.
Absolutely. That, and cost, similar to gunnerblue's point--could very well be factors in their decision. But I don't see those things as implying that these sights fail to meet a threshold of adequate reliability, just because they are lower cost. If that were the case, I could hardly believe that all these other trainers would run and recommend them.
PDs buy lots of bad patrol rifles and accessories all the time. I don't know anything about the items above, but PD approval for use carries less weight than an ARFcom thread.
Yuck. Just because they are approved doesn’t make it a prudent option.
This. I refuse to buy Chinese products when I can avoid them.
I’ve bought Aimpoint PRO several times during sales for $350.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here's a video of Garand Thumb torture testing a PA 1x6, worth watching to see him drop test optic on rocks......while mounted on a SCAR H. :) I am kind of an optics snob, like the good stuff, but that ACSS reticle is sweet, just picked up a 1x6 Raptor for 300 blackout for $255 on sale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ppOlhswG8o
PDs buy lots of bad patrol rifles and accessories all the time. I don't know anything about the items above, but PD approval for use carries less weight than an ARFcom thread.
So what? People often make bad decision and buy $hitty cars. That doesn't prove that all people everywhere do. And it doesn't prove these optics or this decision were bad.
WickedWillis
12-23-19, 17:24
I have been very vocal about not liking Holosun in the past, but they have become unavoidable, and I give them props for all of their fantastic innovations in the industry. Yes it sucks they are made in China, yes all of my defense guns have Aimpoints, Eotech's or Steriners, but Holosun is freaking killing it.
Oh, and all the holosuns competing with the T1's and RMR's have clearer glass, and crisper dots and reticles for me with my Astigmatism.
The lower cost Chinese stuff is innovating faster, putting out products faster, getting contracts, killing bad guys in Aftrica with the SAS, and flooding the market the last few years with very solid and (from what I've seen) reliable competition.
gunnerblue
12-23-19, 18:02
A lot of folks are reluctant to get into shooting comps due to the perceived need of expensive equipment. A lower cost of entry could boost class attendance as well.
Here's a video of Garand Thumb torture testing a PA 1x6, worth watching to see him drop test optic on rocks......while mounted on a SCAR H. :) I am kind of an optics snob, like the good stuff, but that ACSS reticle is sweet, just picked up a 1x6 Raptor for 300 blackout for $255 on sale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ppOlhswG8o
Where did you find the PA ACSS 1x6 Raptor for $255? Even on Black Friday, they stayed in the $350 range.
The lower cost Chinese stuff is ... killing bad guys in Aftrica with the SAS, ...
Unit issued?
everready73
12-23-19, 21:49
I have a holosun 507c on a pistol and have been very happy with it. When I first started researching a while back I was set in a rmr type 2. Then I saw Aaron Cowan out over 10k rounds on one with multiple drop tests. Primary arms also had some reputable trainers and industry people give good feedback. Chambers customs also has over 10k on one he tests/breaks in his 1911s with
You can pick up gently used Aimpoint pros for around $300 for s rifle and that would be my first choice, but I wouldn't be hesitant to use it recommend a few lower cost brands on a rifle. Many people I know won't spend more than $200 or so on a red Dot, at least there are visible options these days
I stick with either the larger Aimpoints like the PRO or second hand market but on black friday PSA had a special ....10 Pmags and a Sig Romeo5 for $199. Haven't tried it yet but for $100 I figured I'd give it a shot since one of my older Aimpoints crapped out this summer
Rumbling I'm seeing by the FBI is they wish they had kept the Aimpoint T-2 instead of going to the SIG Romeo 4.
I get being on a budget and think PA / Vortex have raised the bar with Chinese made optics, but it's still Chinese made optics.
Mysteryman
12-24-19, 22:43
Rumbling I'm seeing by the FBI is they wish they had kept the Aimpoint T-2 instead of going to the SIG Romeo 4.
I get being on a budget and think PA / Vortex have raised the bar with Chinese made optics, but it's still Chinese made optics.
Absolutely correct.
Pasadena PD has a good reputation in the Houston area for their firearms training program and instructors. The instructors and many of the officers are pretty active with TTPOA which hosts classes for many popular and vetted trainers. If the PPD firearms training staff vouched for a product and says its ready for duty work then I would tend to believe them. Primary Arms is based here and has put a lot of money into promoting their products to local agencies.
As a company they've been extremely supportive of local LE and I'm happy to see them make inroads to that market.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Is there a top-shelf illuminated prism sight, i.e. ACOG equivalent? The PA prism seems to have a great rep with people who use it and some of the folks here report a red-dot to be unusable due to astigmatism.
Alaskapopo
12-25-19, 09:49
Yuck. Just because they are approved doesn’t make it a prudent option.
I was skeptical at first but after using PA products for several years first on trainer guns and then later on patrol guns they have held up. The advanced series micro dot is awsome for the money.
Primary Arms strikes me as the same kind of company as Vortex, where some of their lineup is good to go and some of it is chicom trash barely suited for your plinking .22. It does not seem like blanket statements about the brand's entire range are particularly helpful.
Primary Arms strikes me as the same kind of company as Vortex, where some of their lineup is good to go and some of it is chicom trash barely suited for your plinking .22. It does not seem like blanket statements about the brand's entire range are particularly helpful.
Not sure about currently, but I recall seeing one of their red dot descriptions advise against using on a 12 gauge due to lack of durability so they seem to be upfront on what does what.
Anything that a PD with a professional, squared away narcotics squad like Houston PD has that they use on their guns HAS to be GTG.
Especially with such a pro-gun Chief as Acevedo.
[/Satire]
Seriously, I like the Primary Arms stuff that I have purchased, which has been two ACSS Scopes. I really like the ACSS system. When it comes to "Bet my life" gear though, I spend extra for something that has proven durability. I would feel pretty stupid when I'm either taking incoming fire or have to take a lifesaving shot and my primary aiming system fails when I know an Aimpoint or Trijicon would still be working.
Not than anyone cares, but you have more Chicom crap in your life that you know.
I have two of the PA prism optics on two of my ARs and they are fantastic.
They are better than any red dot. Especially if you have an astigmatism.
I just purchased another PA optic for my Rem 700 LTR. It is made in the Philippines, if that matters.
All that said, I also own two ACOGS that I run on two other ARs.
ETA to add. Where are the Aimpoint PRO red dots made? Sweden. Does that matter?
Not than anyone cares, but you have more Chicom crap in your life that you know.
I have two of the PA prism optics on two of my ARs and they are fantastic.
They are better than any red dot. Especially if you have an astigmatism.
I just purchased another PA optic for my Rem 700 LTR. It is made in the Philippines, if that matters.
All that said, I also own two ACOGS that I run on two other ARs.
ETA to add. Where are the Aimpoint PRO red dots made? Sweden. Does that matter?
My business was forced by a small supply chain into a tour of Asian manufacturing companies from different countries. Thailand, Taiwan, Philippines, PRC.
The stuff we got from the PRC had the worst Quality Control I had ever seen. Poor or missing welds. Misaligned seams. Threading that didn't work. We would have rejected whole containers but for the fact that we were reimbursed labor and opportunity cost to sort through everything by the Chinese supplier to make us whole.
That, based on everything else I have heard from others that have worked with PRC companies and experienced myself with consumer goods, like most of us, makes me highly distrust PRC QC.
The other thing is that I hate the PRC Government. I view them as an enemy to the United States, and an evil dictatorship not any better than Nazi Germany to boot. Mao killed millions, and now they have concentration camps for the Uighurs. I hate putting any money in their pockets when I can avoid doing so. It is just hard to avoid in the US economy these days. I do what I can though.
I avoid buying any PRC-made computers, phones, routers, etc for my business out of spyware concerns. The likelihood that the MSS wants to steal my company's secrets isn't high. But just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that the little green men aren't actually trying to castrate you with their machetes!! LOL
Eurodriver
12-27-19, 09:42
I stopped buying the “I can’t afford Aimpoint/Trijicon so I bought a Holosun” bullshit a long time ago.
You all should too.
Most of these idiots have 5-10 budget rifles with budget optics and claim they can’t afford quality kit. Well, if you had just bought 1-2 rifles you could have some good KAC shit with quality optics, maybe even some NODs and a whole bunch of ammo.
Holosun is “unavoidable”? What does that even mean? Is Holosun invading your house? Are you unable to filter by Brand when purchasing new optics?
- Nightforce
- Aimpoint
- Schmidt and Bender
Done.
I stopped buying the “I can’t afford Aimpoint/Trijicon so I bought a Holosun” bullshit a long time ago.
You all should too.
Most of these idiots have 5-10 budget rifles with budget optics and claim they can’t afford quality kit. Well, if you had just bought 1-2 rifles you could have some good KAC shit with quality optics, maybe even some NODs and a whole bunch of ammo.
Holosun is “unavoidable”? What does that even mean? Is Holosun invading your house? Are you unable to filter by Brand when purchasing new optics?
- Nightforce
- Aimpoint
- Schmidt and Bender
Done.
A Holosun just flew over my house.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Your chinesium optics are spying on you
Stay woke
While I agree with some of the sentiment expressed reality is that no one else is servicing the tactical LPVO market for 300 Blackout/7.62x39. Bonus points for the fact that for the price of one Vortex Razor you can get 4, count them 4 PA 1x6's. Are they as good as a Razor, of course not, but they are likely somewhere between 80-90% as good as a Razor. And there would be some justice in facing a invading Chinese hoard and taking some down using China made shit.:)
It doesn't matter where I go in the room. One of the lenses of the scope is always looking at me unless I close the caps.
Those scopes also tell me to do things. I find wearing tin foil on my head helps. Regardless, I only do the good things that they tell me to do.
Don't get me started about the tracking devices on top of each streetlight. Part of the government and alien plot to steal my seed to start the Master Race.
I agree that we do not ever want any Chicom junk. I just have two of the optics. Yes, China is our enemy. Maybe we could just nuke them and end that problem.
WickedWillis
12-27-19, 11:45
Unit issued?
I'm not sure if it was unit issued or not. It was this hombre in Africa a few years back
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49282462422_9a07327f4d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i5Vv6Y)2019-12-27_09-36-31 (https://flic.kr/p/2i5Vv6Y) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
I'm not sure if it was unit issued or not. It was this hombre in Africa a few years back
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49282462422_9a07327f4d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2i5Vv6Y)2019-12-27_09-36-31 (https://flic.kr/p/2i5Vv6Y) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on FlickrYou can tell that that's Chinese?
I think that guy is actually British.....
WickedWillis
12-27-19, 11:50
You can tell that that's Chinese?
It was said on this forum when it happened that it was a Holosun sight a few years ago.
I think that guy is actually British.....
He is SAS I guess.
I'm not sure if it was unit issued or not. It was this hombre in Africa a few years back
My vision isn’t good enough to tell, but that would be something of a stamp of approval. And yes, this gentleman was SAS. Very interesting.
I was told by a well known poster here that owns Holosun and SRO's and Trijy, to just buy the Holosun for my Handgun. And Ive been perfectly satisfied with the Holosun. Whatever
I'm not giving up my Nightforce for anybody so just stop there.
PB
I was told by a well known poster here that owns Holosun and SRO's and Trijy, to just buy the Holosun for my Handgun. And Ive been perfectly satisfied with the Holosun. Whatever
I'm not giving up my Nightforce for anybody so just stop there.
PB
Which holosun you run on your pistol?
I stopped buying the “I can’t afford Aimpoint/Trijicon so I bought a Holosun” bullshit a long time ago.
You all should too.
Most of these idiots have 5-10 budget rifles with budget optics and claim they can’t afford quality kit. Well, if you had just bought 1-2 rifles you could have some good KAC shit with quality optics, maybe even some NODs and a whole bunch of ammo.
Holosun is “unavoidable”? What does that even mean? Is Holosun invading your house? Are you unable to filter by Brand when purchasing new optics?
- Nightforce
- Aimpoint
- Schmidt and Bender
Done.
So I guess you're saying that people running the recent PA/Holosun/Vortex RDS, including DeFoor, Haley, Pannone, et al, are all 'idiots'? And by extension, all of us too? Thanks, merry Christmas.
As in the OP, there are a lot of us who can afford--and actually do run and own--higher end quality optics. I have NF, Aimpoint, Leupold, Trijicon, and Vortex Razor on other rifles. So the motive for running these sights is not always or mainly cost, but (1) Features, and (2) Adequate tested reliability that we have no qualms running them on a defensive use rifle.
I get the concerns about buying stuff from China--I really do. In general, when I have an equivalent or better quality American product, I'll get that. In this case, vision was the limiting factor for me, and the PA prism sight was literally the best thing I've tried (regardless of price) that addressed my vision issues and the need for a 1x combat optic.
titsonritz
12-28-19, 18:07
It was said on this forum when it happened that it was a Holosun sight a few years ago.
He is SAS I guess.
Nairobi terrorist attack 1 2019 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212560-Nairobi-terrorist-attack-1-2019)
Which holosun you run on your pistol?
It is the 400 series, I think 407. The 500 have features that only complicate for handguns. The thing is for pistols, nobody has figured out RDS that can take that slide beating and my buddies send their SRO...back all the time. Even the Trijicon... Mine is not a duty or HD pistol and there are back up irons so I don't care. I have had zero issues with fairly heavy use.
My rifles have NF, Aimpoint and ACOGs, so its not like a condone low end stuff. But for this application I seem to think appropriate.
Lastly, if you have 3 rifles that are 100% buttoned up and want to test the water, then so be it. I always say, you can buy cheap stuff that might run 100%, but the chances of it running 100% are less than Option A. You can get lucky.
PB
I suppose the problems with RDS on pistols is the origin of this:
https://algdefense.com/accessories/glock/6-second-mount.html
Jack Weigand came out with these for 1911 “race guns” in the late ‘80’s/early ‘90’s.
https://www.jackweigand.com/sm3.html
You want to roll with Chinese optics on a go to rifle?
Knock yourself out, but don't get a$$hurt if not everyone agrees with you.
Sure, a number of trainers are shooting with them - in training as far as I know, so if it shit who cares.
Mrgunsngear
12-29-19, 20:36
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/12/06/primary-arms-optics-approved-for-duty-use-by-pasadena-police-department/
The Pasadena Police dept of Houston, TX, approved these 2 Primary Arms sights for duty use:
(1) 1x20 illum. prism sight with ACSS reticle
(2) SLx Advanced Push Button Microdot Red Dot
This has come up in a few various threads in the last year, but I'll say it again: I don't think it's any longer the case that you have to spend in excess of $700-$800 for an RDS + mount, in order to get a reliable sight. A variety of folks from Travis Haley, to Kyle DeFoor, and others, have been running various RDS or LPV's from various companies including Vortex, Primary Arms, and Holosun. And starting to see a few departments adopting PA sights for duty use. For the guys running these, I'm not hearing them say things like "I only run this on range guns." Personally I can afford to get another Aimpoint if I wanted one, and I do like their reliability and long battery life, but those are no longer features unique to them only. I used to get only Aimpoint for red dots, but dissatisfaction with the red dot clarity on my T1's and T2's led me to look around last year, and was pleasantly surprised to find several optics that have as good or better features, improved dot clarity, lower cost, and good reliability. Currently I'm running the PA 1x20 prism sight with ACSS. That sight is the best 1x I've had and can get superior accuracy (partially due to the diopter which lets me adjust it for my vision, and partly due to the precision of the ACSS reticle design) with it as well as quick hits.
https://youtu.be/WmYvSqFKrow
Current production prism optics are very durable; the Cyclops included.
You want to roll with Chinese optics on a go to rifle?
Knock yourself out, but don't get a$$hurt if not everyone agrees with you.
Sure, a number of trainers are shooting with them - in training as far as I know, so if it shit who cares.
Yeah that's right, some of the top trainers in the country are running tactical training classes, and posting publicly about running these sights on their rifles, knowing they are not reliable enough to recommend to their students, but they don't care.
Gonna call bullshit on that. We have public comments like the one below by DeFoor about the PA LPV optics, to the contrary.
ETA: Fixed broked link:
https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/red-dot-vs-scope-ar-15-kyle-defoor/
As far as low powered variable optic manufacturers, essentially I would say you have your “big four”, which are Vortex, Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce and Leupold. And then you have your “other” three…Kahles, Steiner and Primary Arms. But all of those guys make LPVs that are good.
Yeah that's right, some of the top trainers in the country are running tactical training classes, and posting publicly about running these sights on their rifles, knowing they are not reliable enough to recommend to their students, but they don't care.
Gonna call bullshit on that. We have public comments like the one below by DeFoor about the PA LPV optics, to the contrary.
https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/red-do...5-kyle-defoor/
Your link is dead, maximus83. https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/best-low-power-variable-optic-lpvo-expert-advice/ should work.
The quote in my link was from an interview in this link: https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/red-dot-vs-scope-ar-15-kyle-defoor/
I am with mrgunsngear. It is like the MIM haters. It is a pointless argument. Sure I run two of the Cyclops and they are fantastic. I have an astigmatism, so red dots do not work for me.
Either way, I am not going into combat with these. But I probably would.
Yeah that's right, some of the top trainers in the country are running tactical training classes, and posting publicly about running these sights on their rifles, knowing they are not reliable enough to recommend to their students, but they don't care.
Gonna call bullshit on that. We have public comments like the one below by DeFoor about the PA LPV optics, to the contrary.
Easy nellie, don't get so worked up - I was just pointing out they are using them in training, not while kicking in doors.
Would be interesting to see their choices then.
Here is a review of a China made RDS.
You may need to turn on English captions to understand what the guy is saying.
https://youtu.be/-MVlcJLz1-Q
Adrenaline_6
01-02-20, 08:56
First it was cars - "Americuh! - Japanese crap!" Now look where we are.
Now its the Chinese. Sure - their QC is lacking on the low end stuff, it's why some crap is so cheap, but that is what companies like PA, etc. have started to change. They pay for the higher QC and set their standards on the outsourced work. If the standards aren't met, the manufacturer doesn't get paid..pretty simple. They are human beings just like us (actually their population as a whole might have a better work ethic than our country overall, but that is a different discussion altogether) so if standards are set, they can be met, and due to lower labor rates, do it at a cheaper price. It's simple economics and logic.
I see the same bs with flashlights, knives, etc. It's naive to think they can't make a quality product. Your Apple products are proof of that nonsense. It's just that until lately, no one was really setting the "rules" for QC, so the cheapy stuff was the easy money makers for them. Now, they see the other opportunities in the QC market just like Japan did with cars awhile back.
You will always have your loyalists to certain brands and that is totally fine...and if it works for those people...awesome. But to naysay, just to naysay because...is borderline stupid and will fade away and be looked at as stupid just like Japanese cars are now.
Mysteryman
01-02-20, 13:51
First it was cars - "Americuh! - Japanese crap!" Now look where we are.
Now its the Chinese. Sure - their QC is lacking on the low end stuff, it's why some crap is so cheap, but that is what companies like PA, etc. have started to change. They pay for the higher QC and set their standards on the outsourced work. If the standards aren't met, the manufacturer doesn't get paid..pretty simple. They are human beings just like us (actually their population as a whole might have a better work ethic than our country overall, but that is a different discussion altogether) so if standards are set, they can be met, and due to lower labor rates, do it at a cheaper price. It's simple economics and logic.
I see the same bs with flashlights, knives, etc. It's naive to think they can't make a quality product. Your Apple products are proof of that nonsense. It's just that until lately, no one was really setting the "rules" for QC, so the cheapy stuff was the easy money makers for them. Now, they see the other opportunities in the QC market just like Japan did with cars awhile back.
You will always have your loyalists to certain brands and that is totally fine...and if it works for those people...awesome. But to naysay, just to naysay because...is borderline stupid and will fade away and be looked at as stupid just like Japanese cars are now.
Many of the Japanese branded vehicles are assembled in North America.
China is capable of higher QC, but the vendor doesn't want it because the consumer is too dumb to demand it.
The Chinese work ethic is a small percentage of their culture, a large percentage of necessity to stay alive, and an equally large part of being a communist shithole. Same story for the reduced labour costs.
Apple products are overrated junk.
Adrenaline_6
01-02-20, 14:51
Many of the Japanese branded vehicles are assembled in North America.
China is capable of higher QC, but the vendor doesn't want it because the consumer is too dumb to demand it.
The Chinese work ethic is a small percentage of their culture, a large percentage of necessity to stay alive, and an equally large part of being a communist shithole. Same story for the reduced labour costs.
Apple products are overrated junk.
Your not actually implying that the Japanese branded vehicles are only good because they are now made in America are you, because that would be simply a hilarious statement. The US actually went over to Japan and studied how they did things there so they could catch up.
The consumer is now demanding it, that is why companies like PA and Holosun are coming out with better products. True, some consumers are too dumb and just want cheap, but many want better quality and cheap which is achievable.
Guess what the large percentage of the population that wants to stay alive is willing to do?
I am definitely not an Apple person, but calling them overrated junk would be like calling Glock overrated junk. It is popular, it works well, it has a large following and has great support - and I don't like Glocks either btw, but I wouldn't call them overrated junk because they don't work for me.
grizzlyblake
01-03-20, 09:05
So Defoor has been running the Vortex Crossfire Gen 2 for some time now, transporting it from class to class around the US in his Harley saddlebags. He hasn't posted anything negative. I realize Vortex is probably giving him all their stuff for free now, but he tends to pull no punches with gear reviews.
I picked one up for $150 or whatever it was and the reality is that I cannot distinguish it from my T2 other than the slight aesthetic differences.
Is anyone else running one?
So Defoor has been running the Vortex Crossfire Gen 2 for some time now, transporting it from class to class around the US in his Harley saddlebags. He hasn't posted anything negative. I realize Vortex is probably giving him all their stuff for free now, but he tends to pull no punches with gear reviews.
I picked one up for $150 or whatever it was and the reality is that I cannot distinguish it from my T2 other than the slight aesthetic differences.
Is anyone else running one?
I'm going to throw one on a beater.
Has anyone here used the PA 1x Cyclops on a duty rifle doing interior searches, or at least trained with one indoors with a whitelight? Does the reticle wash as bad as a TA44/45?
Anybody here have both the PA and Vortex 1x prisms that can offer some comparison?
As much as I dislike Chinese stuff, these newer optics are getting harder to ignore, especially since I know a few cops that are too cheap to buy an Aimpoint.
A lot of Japanese QC came from:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
To a large extent, Japanese products that were proclaimed as junk were actually quite good going way back.
Chinese stuff, not so much. Something I have noticed with most Chinese stuff resold by US companies (Vortex and Primary Arms seem to be exceptions) is as the quality level begins to approach that of Euro/US items, so does the price it is sold for here.
I think the cheapest - best low end optic is the Sig T1 knock off. For $125, it impressed the sht out of me. What impressed me is it takes T1-2 mounts. But more importantly, the graduation of light is spot on. Vs going from not enough RDS to starburst.
I still have multiple Aimpoints and other high end glass on my guns, but when you have your GOTO GUNS covered, nothing wrong with a nice little Sig RDS to solve your RDS need.
I have a PA, that I got with an Arsenal AK I bought. Never tested SXS, but I hear it’s decent too. Worked on my AK.
PB
Mrgunsngear
01-04-20, 23:01
Has anyone here used the PA 1x Cyclops on a duty rifle doing interior searches, or at least trained with one indoors with a whitelight? Does the reticle wash as bad as a TA44/45?
Anybody here have both the PA and Vortex 1x prisms that can offer some comparison?
As much as I dislike Chinese stuff, these newer optics are getting harder to ignore, especially since I know a few cops that are too cheap to buy an Aimpoint.
Yes. Not like the TA44 at all.
RobertTheTexan
01-15-20, 14:44
Many of the Japanese branded vehicles are assembled in North America.
China is capable of higher QC, but the vendor doesn't want it because the consumer is too dumb to demand it.
The Chinese work ethic is a small percentage of their culture, a large percentage of necessity to stay alive, and an equally large part of being a communist shithole. Same story for the reduced labour costs.
Apple products are overrated junk.
Since the entirety of your post seems intended on just arguing some valid points Adrenaline_6 made. I thought I would kindly point out the literal cow fertilizer your post is slathered in. And by slathered I mean like SLATHERED.
Many of the Japanese branded vehicles are assembled in North America.
And your point? Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Nissan, Toyota, Honda all produced cars in Japan that were absolutely equal to their North American counterpart, they just didn't have the "Made in Texas by Texans" sticker. I'm not a huge fan of Japanese cars or trucks. I never have been, but I have bought them for my wife and they were quality vehicles. I'm also not a fan of counterpoints that generalize and are mostly crap-ladened.
"China is capable of higher QC, but the vendor doesn't want it because the consumer is too dumb to demand it." So now you're an expert on manufacturing processes?
Cool. So am I! It's what I get paid to do.
"The vendor" Wow. I have no idea how many factories are in China, but I am certain of one thing. "The vendor" doesn't even begin to describe all of their (China's) capabilities or processes or the QC that's in place. Seems like a really ignorant thing to say. That's why some American companies have products designed in the US, and own the factory in China where the item or parts are manufactured. That's one way that TODAY they care controlling not only QC, but equally as important they control the raw materials sourced to manufacture their items. PowerTac flashlights fall into that category and they are solid lights. There is more than one optics company today that not only do the design CONUS, but own the factory or at minimum have established their quality standards and tolerances. They've established where raw materials can be sourced from including the glass used. The manufacturer either follows those specs or the manufacturer does not get to manufacture. It's really that simple. I've seen manufacturing processes across this planet and I can tell you that not all factories in China are producing shitty products.
Another example is Streamlight, which I have used numerous of their products, especially the TLR and also their Protac models and those are made in China. They are not crappy lights by any standard. They have been abused and used and I've never had one fail on me and I'm not remotely nice to them. I don't care much about supporting Chinese manufacturing processes - I really could give 2 craps about it. But your statements are generalized bullcrap, if I can just put it bluntly.
As far as the consumer being too dumb to demand it. I think the customer was too cheap to care. I think today it's a different story. Consumers want to have better products without having to buy the "Cadillac" Vendors or brand-holders realize that and they also realize that without some controls in place, they will continue to import shit and sell shit. PA is one company that is trying to control that, but they aren't the first. I don't own any PA optics, but what I do like to see is better quality products hitting the market. That benefits all of us without us even jumping onto that bandwagon. It's simple supply chain economics.
The Chinese work ethic is a small percentage of their culture, a large percentage of necessity to stay alive, and an equally large part of being a communist shithole. Same story for the reduced labour costs.
Do you work for the LabOUR department of Canada? Just wondering where you are getting all your facts from. But I refer to my 2nd point. Standards and service agreements affect more than just the QA department that inspects the finished good. It impacts everyone's bottom line when 80% (or whatever) of products fail QA/QC and have to be reworked - which is exactly what would happen IF your statement was true. That's why these standards and specs affect the factories down to the worker bee level.
Apple products are overrated junk.
Oh another Apple hater! But again, you only pick on the other dude's viable comment. Apple. Samsung. Google. What's the difference? Not a damn thing. Certainly not worth bringing up, unless you want to geek out over some features. So what's your point? I have an Apple, but I'm far from a Crapple as I like to call it fanboy. It's a tool that does what it's supposed to do, even when it falls in the toilet. So junk? Not really. I think my Crapple TV is pretty slick and it does what it's advertised to do and it has never failed. Even when I take it to Brazil - works like a champ. My 5 year old iPad? Junk? Nope, wrong again because it still works. My Android products that are half that age? Now those devices are tits up. BRAVO DELTA. So again, Apple, Samsung, Google and whatever other brand that can be mentioned - they are all pretty much the same thing. I'll give it to Crapple though. They have the market on being overrated and overpriced, but functionality-wise? They are all pretty much the same.
You would have been better off just saying, "I HATE CHICOM STUFF! IT'S ALL SHIT AND I ONLY BUY 'MERICAN!"
That I definitely could understand and respect. But all that crap you posted is just that. Crap.
WickedWillis
01-15-20, 16:57
I love Robert's posts.
Well Mystery man gets almost 3000FPS out of his 12.5" AR-15 with M193, so he's in the know about something... ;)
everready73
01-15-20, 20:10
Has anyone here used the PA 1x Cyclops on a duty rifle doing interior searches, or at least trained with one indoors with a whitelight? Does the reticle wash as bad as a TA44/45?
Anybody here have both the PA and Vortex 1x prisms that can offer some comparison?
As much as I dislike Chinese stuff, these newer optics are getting harder to ignore, especially since I know a few cops that are too cheap to buy an Aimpoint.
@1168 look into the Swampfox optics Blade for that application. The reticle is much bigger than the cyclops and I imagine would be easier to pickup in that application. It has offsets for 5, 10 and 15 yards as well I believe
They are a newer company but putting out decent stuff from what I hear. They actually own a Chinese factory and produce everything there so control everything
Mike (old primary arms rep) is one of their main guys. There is a huge thread in TOS in the optics section with pics of the reticle and info. Should be some info at shot show as well. Coming out this month
Iyla (dark lord of optics) had some good things to say about scopes he is evaluating but no full review yet
*Aaron Cowan did a video on their pistol rds and it failed the drop test. This is their cheap reflex similar to the vortex venom. Mike immediately contacted him for constructive criticism and they are coming out with a new model that should be much better
According to mike they specifically designed the blade for duty use and to be a tough optic law enforcement can buy in a budget. They have a discount program for first responders
@1168 look into the Swampfox optics Blade for that application. The reticle is much bigger than the cyclops and I imagine would be easier to pickup in that application. It has offsets for 5, 10 and 15 yards as well I believe
They are a newer company but putting out decent stuff from what I hear. They actually own a Chinese factory and produce everything there so control everything
Mike (old primary arms rep) is one of their main guys. There is a huge thread in TOS in the optics section with pics of the reticle and info. Should be some info at shot show as well. Coming out this month
Iyla (dark lord of optics) had some good things to say about scopes he is evaluating but no full review yet
*Aaron Cowan did a video on their pistol rds and it failed the drop test. This is their cheap reflex similar to the vortex venom. Mike immediately contacted him for constructive criticism and they are coming out with a new model that should be much better
According to mike they specifically designed the blade for duty use and to be a tough optic law enforcement can buy in a budget. They have a discount program for first responders
Interesting. Thanks.
Edit: I don’t see the Blade on their website.
everready73
01-16-20, 07:55
Interesting. Thanks.
Edit: I don’t see the Blade on their website.
Probably won't be until shot. If you venture to TOS there is a 25 page thread were like posted a bunch of info and pics. Under ar15 section then optics.
I am assuming a lot more marketing stuff is coming on their website soon. Check insta and Facebook as well if you have. I think it is worth looking into for your application
Mysteryman
01-16-20, 16:09
Since the entirety of your post seems intended on just arguing some valid points Adrenaline_6 made. I thought I would kindly point out the literal cow fertilizer your post is slathered in. And by slathered I mean like SLATHERED.
Many of the Japanese branded vehicles are assembled in North America.
And your point? Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Nissan, Toyota, Honda all produced cars in Japan that were absolutely equal to their North American counterpart, they just didn't have the "Made in Texas by Texans" sticker. I'm not a huge fan of Japanese cars or trucks. I never have been, but I have bought them for my wife and they were quality vehicles. I'm also not a fan of counterpoints that generalize and are mostly crap-ladened.
So now you're an expert on manufacturing processes?
Cool. So am I! It's what I get paid to do.
"The vendor" Wow. I have no idea how many factories are in China, but I am certain of one thing. "The vendor" doesn't even begin to describe all of their (China's) capabilities or processes or the QC that's in place. Seems like a really ignorant thing to say. That's why some American companies have products designed in the US, and own the factory in China where the item or parts are manufactured. That's one way that TODAY they care controlling not only QC, but equally as important they control the raw materials sourced to manufacture their items. PowerTac flashlights fall into that category and they are solid lights. There is more than one optics company today that not only do the design CONUS, but own the factory or at minimum have established their quality standards and tolerances. They've established where raw materials can be sourced from including the glass used. The manufacturer either follows those specs or the manufacturer does not get to manufacture. It's really that simple. I've seen manufacturing processes across this planet and I can tell you that not all factories in China are producing shitty products.
Another example is Streamlight, which I have used numerous of their products, especially the TLR and also their Protac models and those are made in China. They are not crappy lights by any standard. They have been abused and used and I've never had one fail on me and I'm not remotely nice to them. I don't care much about supporting Chinese manufacturing processes - I really could give 2 craps about it. But your statements are generalized bullcrap, if I can just put it bluntly.
As far as the consumer being too dumb to demand it. I think the customer was too cheap to care. I think today it's a different story. Consumers want to have better products without having to buy the "Cadillac" Vendors or brand-holders realize that and they also realize that without some controls in place, they will continue to import shit and sell shit. PA is one company that is trying to control that, but they aren't the first. I don't own any PA optics, but what I do like to see is better quality products hitting the market. That benefits all of us without us even jumping onto that bandwagon. It's simple supply chain economics.
Do you work for the LabOUR department of Canada? Just wondering where you are getting all your facts from. But I refer to my 2nd point. Standards and service agreements affect more than just the QA department that inspects the finished good. It impacts everyone's bottom line when 80% (or whatever) of products fail QA/QC and have to be reworked - which is exactly what would happen IF your statement was true. That's why these standards and specs affect the factories down to the worker bee level.
Oh another Apple hater! But again, you only pick on the other dude's viable comment. Apple. Samsung. Google. What's the difference? Not a damn thing. Certainly not worth bringing up, unless you want to geek out over some features. So what's your point? I have an Apple, but I'm far from a Crapple as I like to call it fanboy. It's a tool that does what it's supposed to do, even when it falls in the toilet. So junk? Not really. I think my Crapple TV is pretty slick and it does what it's advertised to do and it has never failed. Even when I take it to Brazil - works like a champ. My 5 year old iPad? Junk? Nope, wrong again because it still works. My Android products that are half that age? Now those devices are tits up. BRAVO DELTA. So again, Apple, Samsung, Google and whatever other brand that can be mentioned - they are all pretty much the same thing. I'll give it to Crapple though. They have the market on being overrated and overpriced, but functionality-wise? They are all pretty much the same.
You would have been better off just saying, "I HATE CHICOM STUFF! IT'S ALL SHIT AND I ONLY BUY 'MERICAN!"
That I definitely could understand and respect. But all that crap you posted is just that. Crap.
Maybe you should read my post again, and really try to comprehend what I am saying.
For starters I said nothing about Japanese products. Yes, I'm very aware that many Japanese brands are in fact assembled in North America, I drive two of them. They are quality and I would wager they are far better designed and built than any domestic brand. Many domestic models aren't manufactured in North America. I dislike Chinese goods because they're usually junk, China is killing industry across the globe with cheap labour, and they treat their people and the environment like shit. I don't exclusively buy American either.
As for manufacturing, I stated exactly what you stated. China produces crap, but are VERY capable of producing quality products as well. Unfortunately the vendors and/or the customers do not wish to see such quality, either through ignorance or simply because they're cheap. Labour costs are far less in China, but even their quality products cost more to make and are reflected in the price of the finished goods. Why do you think companies source their manufacturing offshore? Cheaper labour means higher margins. Unfortunately it also means killing US jobs or jobs elsewhere in the world where working standards are higher. You can attribute that trend to either greedy execs, or the reality that high priced goods don't sell as well as cheap goods. I call it the Walmart syndrome. You know what you're buying is cheap junk, but it's cheap, and cheap has been promoted as a desirable trait when shopping for nearly anything. The flip side is the belief that anything expensive or "major brand" is over priced and you're simply paying for the name. I don't disagree that a significant portion of brand names goods are simply average quality with inflated pricing. There is however still a lot of truth to "you get what you pay for". What consumers need to do is find the balance between over priced brand names goods and cheap garbage products.
Again, I think we are saying the same thing when it comes to Apple. Yes their products do the same thing as other brands. Apple is one of those over hyped average quality brands that people get sucked into buying due to effective marketing. You may say your Apple products are still working years later as opposed to your other branded products. I will say the opposite. My Samsung tablet is 7 years old and works just fine. I also have an 11 year old Macbook that still works. My concern with Apple is two fold. They're a shit bag socialist company for starters, and they over hype their products, change very little from model year to model year then proclaim how amazing they and their products are. Apple is the king of proprietary plugs, accessories etc as well. A rather annoying "buy my products only" mentality.
everready73
01-19-20, 13:18
@1168
Here is done more info on the Blade I mentioned above.
https://gatdaily.com/swampfox-blade/
Obviously not out quite yet but interesting concept and I think it will be better or right there with the cyclops durability wise.
The reticle makes more sense for cqb
I bought a Cyclops and a Sig Romeo 5 around the same time. The Cyclops was alright, but when I took it around town and tried to look at things I realized it was not as great as I'd thought. It had a subtle problem with resolution; I could read signs with the Cyclops that I could also see with my naked eye, except for the furthest ones. When I realized I would rather have a good set of irons that co witnessed with the Romeo 5 or another dot optic I sent the Cyclops back. Also it had a non standard height Aimpoint micro mount. I'm guessing a Larue micro mount for Hk416 would be an aftermarket mount that would put the Cyclops at the correct height.
We have a separate Division of the company that supports LE. This is not just for our optics but all products. We have put a lot into in house engineering in recent years and the LE Grade items are some of the results. The Cyclops is a great solution for someone that has problems with red dots because of an astigmatism or wants BDC in a 1X platform. At SHOT we introduced a mid tier GLX series 2X that was developed from the ground up to be duty grade, have good eye relief, eye box and wide field of view. Part of the testing was literally thousands of rounds through a SCAR .308. Will have the same ACSS reticle we are using the TA44 Acogs in 5.56 and 7.62
Thanks
Marshall
6072160722
I've had a PA 3x Compact Scope on my 16" BCM for years and would go into a SHTF situation feeling completely confident I'm not under equipped. I've read the 'For range use only" disclaimer but after numerous hog hunts and other robust outings where it has always done it's job I choose to disregard that.
I'm super anal when it comes to canted posts and reticles that aren't, in my eye, perfect. The 3x compact scope I bought from PA, I thought the reticle wasn't perfectly vertical. I sent it back and Marshall swapped it out, no bickering, no telling me they checked it out and it appeared fine to them. I'm happy with their product.
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