View Full Version : Church armed parishioners take out shooter in TX
If that continues to happen, churches will be avoided by shooters being hard targets. Mass shooter types go where they think they can rack up death toll without resistance as a rule and churches may be off the menu at least in states like TX:
WHITE SETTLEMENT, TEXAS- We’ve just received new information about a shooting at a church in White Settlement, Texas that left two people dead and a third person fighting for their life.
It happened at the West Freeway Church of Christ of Las Vegas Trail according to authorities, and was apparently broadcast on the church’s live stream.
Police said that a gunman entered during communion and that the gunman had a shotgun. We’re told he had time to shoot and kill one parishioner and wound a second, who is now battling life-threatening injuries.
They said he was then taken down by two other church members.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/one-person-killed-second-fighting-for-life-murderer-with-shotgun-taken-out-by-two-armed-parishioners/
and video........
https://streamable.com/m8sly
and video........
https://streamable.com/m8sly
Looks like guy that made the shot was either good or lucky or both and put it right in his squash first shot. He looked to be in uniform and perhaps and older gent? First guy the shooter shot maybe attempting to draw a weapon? You can see at least two more armed going toward the shooter.
William B.
12-29-19, 16:01
Looks like guy that made the shot was either good or lucky or both and put it right in his squash first shot.
No kidding. That was impressive.
From that video, the first person shot was drawing from concealment on the attacker. The parishioner that put the attacker engaged him from over 10 yds away.
And now the video link is taken down.
Boba Fett v2
12-29-19, 16:18
Video is gone.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-29-19, 16:18
From that video, the first person shot was drawing from concealment on the attacker. The parishioner that put the attacker engaged him from over 10 yds away.
And now the video link is taken down.
Anyone have a link to the video? My google-fu is weak...
Compare and contrast with the knife attack on the Jewish Rabbi's house in NY...
SilverBullet432
12-29-19, 16:25
Video is gone.
It’s all over Facebook (and all other platforms I assume) right now.
Unfortunate for the first guy to draw as he was quite slow. Looked like an older gentleman. I’m just really glad that FOUR other packers drew and were there to ensure the threat was STOPPED. God bless them!!!
Anyone have a link to the video? My google-fu is weak...
Compare and contrast with the knife attack on the Jewish Rabbi's house in NY...
Video is on Twitter. Found it on Brad Thor’s feed. No idea how to share it to here however.
The first victim drew his carry, but was obvious it wasn’t something he had practiced much. Cleared the holster, and appeared to hesitate..bad guy already had sight picture.
The guy who took the shooter down, basically unscrewed his pistol, leveled, and popped him in the grape from nearly halfway across the room. He obviously had practiced/trained a bit.
Tragic, and I don’t mean to criticize the gent who first attempted to confront the shooter, but this is a classic case of “just carrying” isn’t enough. This website has taught me that.
If you scroll down a bit here is a video, some of it is blurred out.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/12/29/watch-good-guy-gun-shoots-alleged-texas-church-shooter/
Notice how the majority of people seemed to instinctually go to the ground immediately when the first shot was fired.
Incredible shot and determination, running target, over friendly civilians. Wow! Impressive that 4 ccw converged onto the bad guy. Good job Texas!
The Brad Thor Twitter vid is still up.
Good on those church goers. They had several armed people ready to go.
Without existing on a hyper-vigilant (paranoid) knife-edge of awareness constantly, its hard to get through the OODA process faster than they did. I think for everyday joes they did alright.
video can be seen here
https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1211389263897649154?s=20
sandsunsurf
12-29-19, 17:41
Here’s a news story link that has a pretty good quality video in it:
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article238807963.html
Notice how the majority of people seemed to instinctually go to the ground immediately when the first shot was fired.
Either that or freeze in place - disbelieving what just happened or not able to process the situation
As there are elderly people and probably not good mobility, it's difficult even if some want to escape. I know several of my elder family members are just physically not able to move at a quick speed. Those are the most vulnerable if the situation drags on.
It's great the it ended quickly so there would not be a stampede or worse.
Then there are the hysterical ones.
High Tower
12-29-19, 17:58
Dailymail is reporting that the church member was retired law enforcement, a concealed carry instructor, and a deacon. Clearly he was well trained. Just listening to the audio it sounds like 3 rolling shots.
Dude with the hogleg got yeeted something fierce.
The two guys didn’t have a chance. You can’t even go to church anymore
Notice how the majority of people seemed to instinctually go to the ground immediately when the first shot was fired.
Seems like a good choice if you are unarmed. What was shocking is how they did not move and then lingered around to see what happened. Only a few seemed to GTFO ASAP.
Very well done and impressive. Sucks those unarmed peeps got shot, horrible. Whats wrong with people? Just nuts.
PB
Inkslinger
12-29-19, 19:03
It looks like the first man shot was drawing a pistol. It’s a good reminder that if you’re carrying a firearm your only roll may be to attract the attention of the scumbag so others may flee or get rounds on the bad guy. It’s also a good reminder to train! My heart goes out to them.
That head shot was longer than the 10yds that someone suggested. More like 15, under real-world pressure. Awesome shot. Too bad the other CCW guy had to die.
I always hate when the media counts the perp among the dead. His life no longer counts or matters and should NEVER even be mentioned in amongst the innocents.
Seems like a good choice if you are unarmed. What was shocking is how they did not move and then lingered around to see what happened. Only a few seemed to GTFO ASAP.
See post 16.
See post 16.
I was referring to when the shooting was apparently over and there was plenty of time for an orderly exit.
That head shot was longer than the 10yds that someone suggested. More like 15, under real-world pressure. Awesome shot. Too bad the other CCW guy had to die.
I always hate when the media counts the perp among the dead. His life no longer counts or matters and should NEVER even be mentioned in amongst the innocents.
My thoughts exactly. The turd isn't a victim in any sense of the word, he got exactly what he had coming.
That head shot was longer than the 10yds that someone suggested. More like 15, under real-world pressure. Awesome shot. .
That someone wrote "over 10 yds" , there hasn't been confirmation that it was a head shot. It's possible but no proof yet.
MA2_Navy_Veteran
12-29-19, 19:29
Good shoot by the parishioner.
Always train & ingrain proper shooting technique.
ID the target & it's backstop...
Safe-Draw & Breath...
Sight Alignment...
Sight Alignment...
Sight Alignment...
Squeeze...
For the parishioner who stopped the active shooter, good job! Without his actions, things could have been a whole lot worse.
We live in an unfortunate time when churches have to be prepared to deal with this sort of thing. A few of the churches in my area have response plans and many of their designated security personnel frequently spend time training at the range.
I downloaded the video. To me, it looks like an argument between someone specific to the bad guy.
I love that there were multiple good guys with guns ready to go. Very sad to see a good guy with a gun go down. Couldn’t draw and fire fast enough and was already drawn upon.
A lot to learn from in this video.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Active Self Protection already has a video analysis up on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E&t=653s
Too bad that first CCW guy didn't make it. Second guy shot was winged in his left side and appears to still be mobile.
Active Self Protection already has a video analysis up on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NzuGSkL2E&t=653s
Too bad that first CCW guy didn't make it. Second guy shot was winged in his left side and appears to still be mobile.
Second guy passed away a few hours ago (yes I know you were referring to him in the video).
That someone wrote "over 10 yds" , there hasn't been confirmation that it was a head shot. It's possible but no proof yet.
LOL Wasn't dogging on you man, just re-watching the video a few times I was like "That's got to be nearly 50 feet". Dude drew, aimed, and capped the moving bastard rather quickly for being under pressure you gotta admit. Seemed like the left side of the perp's head "bulged" a bit, but video wasn't close enough to be sure.
HardToHandle
12-29-19, 20:25
Dude with the hogleg got yeeted something fierce.
The two guys didn’t have a chance. You can’t even go to church anymore
Frankly, churches have been bat-shit magnets for years. I was amazed how many thefts, assaults and just plain weirdness came out my town’s churches when I ran the Calls-for-Service reports. Unless you are on the day shift, I expect most cops miss the sheer number of calls involving churches. And lots of churches don’t call the PoPo.
The turning point for me was a disturbed person call to a church across the street from my church, about 20 years ago. Just a person in the coffee area of the church on weekday afternoon who seemed “off”. It was an non-emergent one officer trip, but about five minutes later, it was a full-on brawl. Some little crazy guy, likely on PCP/similar, started schooling a 6’6” ex-college lineman, defensive tactics instructor. The crazy cat ended up in handcuffs, but it took four officers and tore up a nice little quiet church in the process. Churches serve folks in various crises... unfortunately, some of those folks are the permanently chronic type where violence becomes a pathology.
I *usually* had a gun before the research project, but often a little .32. I got religion after that. When I got married in the front of the church, I was carrying... And had a designated gunman in the back.
The folks in Texas did well. The deceased played their losing hand, but contributed to the save too.
It is a no-win reactive situation from the jump if you are there to worship and not as Dedicated security. * ok - saw the ASP video... the first-shot usher’s draw was not fast enough. I cannot discern if he was fumbling or just being deliberately smooth and non-provoking. Either way, bad outcome.
A good idea might be that you do not stand up to aid in drawing a gunman’s attention to you and then very slowly attempt to draw a pistol.
You might get shot. And he did.
How much better to stay low in the pew to hide what your intentions are. The pistol looked to be behind the point of his hip and he was fumbling his clothing out of the way in a very frustratingly slow and unhurried manner. The whole incident was a lesson of the sort nobody likes to have to discuss.
Good guy who shot bad guy was former fbi
The folks in Texas did well. The deceased played their losing hand, but contributed to the save too.
I mean, to be blunt, the #1 guy telegraphed that draw so badly...the only plus I can say about that is he bought the next guy 5 seconds, who was able to put it to use.
Granted, I'd rather go down attempting to shoot than have no choice in the matter at all... BUT, this is clearly what comes from an endless amount of static, upright standing range shooting.
As a side note, a well known church of any size, especially in the "developing" times we live in, should consider themselves a target. Good to see they had multiple people there to back the others up, even if there were some side issues. I won't judge to harshly; for all we know they just put their security detail together a short time ago, and not everyone was able to get up to speed fully yet.
I'd rather have any backup, than no backup.
Being in a church that deals heavily in recovery, and thus often folks with pretty severe trauma, we have to be very open. However, that means that after I started to carry again and get significantly serious about shooting, it's why I pretty much always carry a full size pistol. Out of the 12-30 that might regularly be there, I may not be the only one armed, but I'm the only one who shoots/trains on a regular basis.
I've ordered enough trauma/medical equipment to put together a med kit in the event the worst ever did happen, but there needs to be more that have actively had recent training on stopping the bleeding. I'd also feel better if there was at least one other person who put a couple hundred rounds a month down range that packed.
While the situation obviously sucks, as they all do, I'm damned glad this one got caught on camera because there's a whole lot of education that can come out of it. I was glad to see Mr Correia analyze it as rapidly as he did.
platoonDaddy
12-30-19, 06:01
following is a tweet, don't know how accurate:
Seeing posts starting to come in that the hero who stopped the Texas church shooter is Jack Wilson, the owner of On Target Shooting Academy.
From ~50ft he drew his weapon under pressure and fired one shot to the terrorist's swiftly moving head in just 2 seconds.
EDIT: My retired FBI friend said a Jim Wilson retired 5 years ago from the FBI. Maybe same guy.
According to the analysis more like five plus seconds between the time the shooter drew his shotgun and the time he was shot.
Not exactly fast.
following is a tweet, don't know how accurate:
EDIT: My retired FBI friend said a Jim Wilson retired 5 years ago from the FBI. Maybe same guy.
Yes it is
platoonDaddy
12-30-19, 08:02
Yes it is
He just emailed the following: Looks like two different people. Jack Wilson - On Target; and Jim Wilson - retired FBI. They both live in the small town of White Settlement.
According to the analysis more like five plus seconds between the time the shooter drew his shotgun and the time he was shot.
Not exactly fast.
To orient yourself toward an ambush, positively identify said threat, and then shoot them in the face with a weapon from concealment...
That’s pretty fast, desu.
He just emailed the following: Looks like two different people. Jack Wilson - On Target; and Jim Wilson - retired FBI. They both live in the small town of White Settlement.
https://dailysounder.com/firearms-instructor-hero-church-gunman/?fbclid=IwAR3mBhvaQ02r2ELzaAzfji-inPZWgdqoMW016hbJ-t5s_ybV4eH58jGMxNQ
sundance435
12-30-19, 08:28
Painful to watch. Unless that first victim had been Jerry Miculek, I don't know that it would have mattered if he had cleared faster and/or moved - I think he still would've been hit without getting a round off. Perp looked to be about 10 feet away with a shotgun and it was a tight space with little room to move, relatively speaking.
platoonDaddy
12-30-19, 09:22
https://dailysounder.com/firearms-instructor-hero-church-gunman/?fbclid=IwAR3mBhvaQ02r2ELzaAzfji-inPZWgdqoMW016hbJ-t5s_ybV4eH58jGMxNQ
I am receiving Gateway Time-out on the Link
Dan Bongino and Fox news is now reporting that one of the parishioners who shot the suspect is an "ex-FBI Agent." I bet Dan got access to the same info I had about retired SA Jim Wilson, who lives in White Settlement. Jack Wilson, the gun range owner, has publicly stated he shot the guy with a .357 SIG. Either there is confusion between Jack and Jim, or both of them were shooting at the suspect. Jack is a little older than Jim. Brothers?
A gun is not a solution, it is only a tool.
Without strategic thinking you will most likely not come in first place in a gun fight.
If the first victim was sitting in a pew or standing at the back of the congregation.
Why approach the terrorist, you want to shake his hand or maybe kiss him.
NO YOU WANT TO KILL HIM!
Get your gun into your hand and into action. If your sitting as part of the main group and you have a clear shot while sitting take it. The movement of you standing up with attract attention, so don't do it.
Engage him from where you are, you can walk or run toward a terrorist faster than your bullets will get there.
Good guy who shot bad guy was former fbi
So the correct descriptor is "armed citizen attending church". (not bagging on you, just the leftists using that information to separate this hero from the rest of us)
I know there are a LOT of churches that don't have paid, licensed armed security. It doesn't matter what current or past certifications you have in your CV. If you're there to attend church services in an unpaid status, you are first and foremost a church-goer and citizen first responder.
God forbid I ever have to shoot someone, I don't want the narrative to be that I am former law enforcement, former Marine or former sport shooting champion. I am a citizen with a concealed carry permit and operating under that alone. Hopefully the aforementioned experience and training will aid in being as effective and safe as humanly possible, but I'm still just a guy going about my business and hope I never have to be in a situation like this one.
From viewing the video, I see several things that jump put. First, had the person talking to the perp had the presence of mind and proper mindset, he could've easily subdued the perp before he got off a shot. The first victim could've rushed the perp and subdued him quicker than his painfully slow draw attempt. He couldn't even buy time to get off the X, because he was pinned in by a wall and getting off the X would've put others in the line of fire. The hero citizen made sure to make his shot count. "Speed is fine, accuracy is final."
If you're carrying concealed and often find yourself in positions of elevated risk, I think it's important to get range time at a dynamic range where you can set up situations simulating those conditions and practice draw to first shot on the clock. Even if you have to drive several hours to find such a range, it would be worth a day or overnight trip. Fortunately range ammo has come down in price and up in availability, so stocking up should be easier.
Prayers to the families in that Church, especially the victims and the responder who took care of business.
I am receiving Gateway Time-out on the Link
Dan Bongino and Fox news is now reporting that one of the parishioners who shot the suspect is an "ex-FBI Agent." I bet Dan got access to the same info I had about retired SA Jim Wilson, who lives in White Settlement. Jack Wilson, the gun range owner, has publicly stated he shot the guy with a .357 SIG. Either there is confusion between Jack and Jim, or both of them were shooting at the suspect. Jack is a little older than Jim. Brothers?
Clearly a gent who has been around firearms a long time and it showed:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-church-shooting-man-take-out-gunman-west-freeway-church?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ULvOB6LYm8&feature=youtu.be
What a proper time to release this video, btw, it was made weeks ago at Wilson's ranch in Texas.
Everything he said in the video occurred in that church.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-30-19, 12:23
Dailymail is reporting that the church member was retired law enforcement, a concealed carry instructor, and a deacon. Clearly he was well trained. Just listening to the audio it sounds like 3 rolling shots.
It looks like it might have been a robbery? I assume there is a collection plate? The guy first confronted seems to have a box or a book in his hand. The bad guy didn't just stand up and start shooting randomly, he shot the guy that was clearly reaching for his CCW. I can't believe that the bad guy was involved with the church, because with that many CCWers and a former FBI guy in the congregation would probably be known in general.
This video has me analyzing my holster and how I dress for EDC. I'd rather be cold than dead, so layering less is the plan forward. I am going to greatly increase my draw training... Does any particular holster design or style help with draw speed?
This video has me analyzing my holster and how I dress for EDC. I'd rather be cold than dead, so layering less is the plan forward. I am going to greatly increase my draw training... Does any particular holster design or style help with draw speed?
Watch the video in post #49.
Watch the video in post #49.
Good video, but he really didn't go into holster style. I think I am going to do some personal (empty pistol) drills with my IWB and OWB holsters and evaluate draw speed, I'm thinking the OWB is the better bet, but curious as to how much it will matter...
Lots of good stuff on the WC YouTube Channel to add to the drills....
The shooter:
https://www.fox4news.com/news/gunman-who-killing-2-during-white-settlement-church-service-identified
Business_Casual
12-30-19, 14:03
Good video, but he really didn't go into holster style. I think I am going to do some personal (empty pistol) drills with my IWB and OWB holsters and evaluate draw speed, I'm thinking the OWB is the better bet, but curious as to how much it will matter...
Lots of good stuff on the WC YouTube Channel to add to the drills....
Think about this: Go train with a tier 1 instructor and write down the drills.
Kyle DeFoor, Pat MAC, Shrek, LAV...
Do we know how many time the terrorist was hit?
Good video, but he really didn't go into holster style. I think I am going to do some personal (empty pistol) drills with my IWB and OWB holsters and evaluate draw speed, I'm thinking the OWB is the better bet, but curious as to how much it will matter...
Lots of good stuff on the WC YouTube Channel to add to the drills....
Have you taken any courses in combat/SD/HD pistol shooting? That's the kinda thing they cover. I can say a few years of IDPA gives one a good sense of what you can draw quickly from and what you can't while drawing from concealment. Any decent quality OWB holster will allow you to draw at speed if you practice it and practice it often until it's second nature and there's plenty of IWB that with practice allow rapid presentation of the firearm, but that also depends on factors like what you're wearing which is why drawing form concealment is essential aspects the CCW life. That's beyond the scope of this thread/OP and my expertise. Others here can direct you to good threads/resources.
As he says in the vid, those who carry some mouse gun in a pocket or something are betting their life they'll never actually need a gun.
Good video, but he really didn't go into holster style.
There is only so much you can cover in a 10:55 video. Note also a lot of what he said in the beginning of the video did not happen in this case.
Do we know how many time the terrorist was hit?
Appears to be one shot to the squash from what I saw in the vid. Didn't seem to me like anyone else got off a short or needed to. In my non professional opinion, it was an impressive shot all things considered.
Do we know how many time the terrorist was hit?
No evidence he was a terrorist. He was shot once to the head.
It’s absurd to label every person who decides to kill innocent people a terrorist. He appears to me to be plain scum.
No evidence he was a terrorist. He was shot once to the head.
I didnt hear him yell this is a robbery.
So he may not have been a political terrorist, but a terrorist he was.
It’s absurd to label every person who decides to kill innocent people a terrorist. He appears to me to be plain scum.
Scum he was. But he terrorized those people, so unless it was a robbery it was terrorism of a type.
We use to associate “terrorist” with religious extremists that were killing for their cause. Not people that can’t distinguish reality from video games and Facebook.
titsonritz
12-30-19, 16:16
We use to associate “terrorist” with religious extremists that were killing for their cause. Not people that can’t distinguish reality from video games and Facebook.
You mean like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols?
As the world de-evolves, we now have sick people that are incapable of achieving anything in their life, seek to validate themselves and elevate themselves by terrorizing and murdering people.
titsonritz
12-30-19, 16:19
The shooter:
https://www.fox4news.com/news/gunman-who-killing-2-during-white-settlement-church-service-identified
So, another felon with a gun. I want to hear from all the anti-gun cunts how taking guns away from law abiding citizens just like Jack Wilson would have helped here.
I didnt hear him yell this is a robbery.
So he may not have been a political terrorist, but a terrorist he was.
Did you hear him yell Allah Akbar or any other chant related to his "terrorist" cause?
It is shaping up he was just there to rob the collection plate.
It is shaping up he was just there to rob the collection plate.
I have seen only speculation that he wanted to rob the place. The video gives no hint of it.
I have seen only speculation that he wanted to rob the place. The video gives no hint of it.
Like I said it is shaping up. More investigation is in progress. But he was known to the church, and was angry about not giving him cash. He wore a disguise, he did not bring enough firearms/ammo to kill very many people..... So it is looking more and more like robbery, and less and less like mass murder.
Al Capone would be a terrorist by todays definition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ULvOB6LYm8&feature=youtu.be
What a proper time to release this video, btw, it was made weeks ago at Wilson's ranch in Texas.
Everything he said in the video occurred in that church.
Anybody know how old Ken Hackathorn is?
I am receiving Gateway Time-out on the Link
Dan Bongino and Fox news is now reporting that one of the parishioners who shot the suspect is an "ex-FBI Agent." I bet Dan got access to the same info I had about retired SA Jim Wilson, who lives in White Settlement. Jack Wilson, the gun range owner, has publicly stated he shot the guy with a .357 SIG. Either there is confusion between Jack and Jim, or both of them were shooting at the suspect. Jack is a little older than Jim. Brothers?
Unrelated but Bongino is a loser.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
titsonritz
12-30-19, 19:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ULvOB6LYm8&feature=youtu.be
What a proper time to release this video, btw, it was made weeks ago at Wilson's ranch in Texas.
Everything he said in the video occurred in that church.
So you're saying this video was made at Jack Wilson's range not Bill Wilson's?
Unrelated but Bongino is a loser.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why is this?
So you're saying this video was made at Jack Wilson's range not Bill Wilson's?
Bill's ranch. Sorry I didn't make it clear. Bill and Ken collaborated on a series of videos.
Ken is over 70.
titsonritz
12-30-19, 19:22
Bill's ranch. Sorry I didn't make it clear. Bill and Ken collaborated on a series of videos.
Ken is over 70.
That makes sense, would have been a trip if it took place at Jack Wilson's place just prior o the shooting.
Business_Casual
12-30-19, 19:22
Unrelated but Bongino is a loser.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, because it is so easy to be a Secret Service agent on the Presidential detail, write best-selling books and get hired to be on-air talent for the #1 cable news network. Which of those have you done, out of interest?
Hard to MMQB these types of situations, but my first thought was: The guy who stood up and took forever to get his gun (while completely telegraphing he was getting a gun) could have stayed seated and used the pew as cover/concealment while he drew, and then stood and engaged. The fact that he stood up and looked to be making a show of getting a gun made him a huge target, and he paid for it with his life.
Good lesson to keep the element of surprise as long as possible, and use cover and concealment to your advantage whenever possible. Great job by the guy who made an incredible shot under pressure to stop the threat so quickly!
Al Capone would be a terrorist by todays definition
No he would still be a criminal and not a terrorist
Why is this?
He cratered his LE career to be a wannabe politician, flopped, and then became a media talking head.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, because it is so easy to be a Secret Service agent on the Presidential detail, write best-selling books and get hired to be on-air talent for the #1 cable news network. Which of those have you done, out of interest?
I wore the same badge for starters. So yea, I kinda have a clue. [emoji1303]
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titsonritz
12-30-19, 19:54
And is anyone surprised at the slant the MSM pulls? Typical.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/us/white-settlement-shooting-how-it-got-name-trnd/index.html
And is anyone surprised at the slant the MSM pulls? Typical.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/us/white-settlement-shooting-how-it-got-name-trnd/index.html
Yeah saw that. Started off close to the truth, then devolved into blaming the settlers for killing all the bison, sending the natives to the res, etc. Two more paragraphs and they would have blamed the climate on them too.
And is anyone surprised at the slant the MSM pulls? Typical.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/us/white-settlement-shooting-how-it-got-name-trnd/index.html
Yeah saw that. Started off close to the truth, then devolved into blaming the settlers for killing all the bison, sending the natives to the res, etc. Two more paragraphs and they would have blamed the climate on them too.No surprise. Since the shooting wasn't racially/religiously motivated they gotta get race into it somehow
I think it fair to suggest that the guy who made the shot acted reasonably quickly given there were probably other actors between him and the problem and due to distance.
The problem I have with the relative slowness of the takedown of the shooter has everything to do with the actions of the first guy shot who essentially set the pacing for the event. I can only figure that somehow a sort of out of body panic set in where he felt he had to do something but all common sense left his grip.
Watching him stand up!!!!! and then fumble for his gun is a sort of nightmare in slow motion.
I can only hope that should I ever be in such a situation that I keep my head in a good place.
We use to associate “terrorist” with religious extremists that were killing for their cause. Not people that can’t distinguish reality from video games and Facebook.
It was originally applied to .gov, specifically .gov actions in late 1700's France and their agents were called terrorists.
Straight Shooter
12-30-19, 22:35
Haven't read all here, but do we know what type of shotgun the goblin used? And what was the goblin shot with, where, and how many times?
Yeah, because it is so easy to be a Secret Service agent on the Presidential detail, write best-selling books and get hired to be on-air talent for the #1 cable news network. Which of those have you done, out of interest?That was pretty much my thought... He's not my style, yet I rarely disagree with him. And he seems to be making the most of his exposure.
Haven't read all here, but do we know what type of shotgun the goblin used? And what was the goblin shot with, where, and how many times?
It appeared to be a short, pump shotgun with a pistol grip. Fired three shots. Killed two people. 3rd shot appeared to miss. (he was shot a millisecond before or just as he fired the 3rd shot)
Good guy had a Sig 229 .357. Fired once. Head shot from 10-15 yds. Bad guy died.
Time from bad guy drawing shotgun to last shot fired was about 6 seconds.
0 sec. Bad guy draws shotgun
.25 sec. Hero #1 begins to draw pistol
1 sec. Hero #2 begins to draw his pistol
3.5 sec. Hero #1 has just cleared his holster, weapon not up yet.
3.5 sec. Bad guy shoots Hero #1, who falls.
4.5 sec. Bad guy shoots another man, who falls.
5.5 sec. Bad guy has turned towards Pastor
5.5 sec. Hero #2 fires shot at bad guy nearly simultaneous to bad guy firing at Pastor. Bad guy falls. Pastor not hit.
It was originally applied to .gov, specifically .gov actions in late 1700's France and their agents were called terrorists.Yep, It's not that hard folks, terrorist are bad actors who do things to generate terror for a political or religious cause. IE: they're usually trying to achieve some kind of change or political goal. And not usually with money as a motive nor crime of passion.
There was a great paper from the 1800s anarchist days that referred to the three insults of terrorism. You can think of insults as being similar to an impact.
1) the impact of whatever you did to start with
2) the financial and political impact of trying to stop future terrorist acts from occurring. A classic shutting the Barn door after the horses got out that we are so good at
3) the backlash that occurs when the authorities hassle innocent people, and more specifically hassle people like the suspects or who were aligned to the cause. Which makes them more inclined to support the cause.
I've searched for that paper again many times and can't find it but if anyone is familiar with it I would love a reference.
Back to the original is every Mass shooter a terrorist clearly the answer is no if they're financially motivated or getting back at the family of someone who left them it's a criminal act, not terrorist.
Outright wackadoodle like School shooters also really doesn't meet the definition of terrorism... Being mentally Disturbed or angry enough to commit murder... Not terrorism. And you could argue that being that angry is just another form of being mentally disturbed.
In the same way a military action by one party In conflict with another is normally not terrorism even though they use the same techniques sometimes. IE: an insider/ green on blue attack against a military unit would normally not be considered terror
Straight Shooter
12-30-19, 23:24
It appeared to be a short, pump shotgun with a pistol grip. Fired three shots. Killed two people. 3rd shot appeared to miss. (he was shot a millisecond before or just as he fired the 3rd shot)
Good guy had a Sig 229 .357. Fired once. Head shot from 10-15 yds. Bad guy died.
Time from bad guy drawing shotgun to last shot fired was about 6 seconds.
Thank you for that info sir. So, would you say it was a Shockwave type shotgun?
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-30-19, 23:48
The change from CinC to network structure of true terrorist organizations has allowed people to see terrorists where there really aren't any. I'm surprised that Yoni would advocate for 'lowering the bar' on terrorism since true terrorism- violence as part of an organized plan intended to change behavior or viewpoints for political purposes - is far more dangerous people incited by one way communications and acting independently.
I understand dead is dead and scared is scared, but that doesn't mean that all violence is 'terrorism'. Doesn't bring back the dead or fix the mental trauma, but it affects how you combat it, before it starts. 9mm seems to be a common cure after things start though.
Thank you for that info sir. So, would you say it was a Shockwave type shotgun?
In his interview, the good guy shooter that prevailed, said that it was an 18" shotgun with a pistol grip. He made a point of saying that an 18" shotgun was a legal length. He could be mistaken, but that's what we've got to go on for now.
titsonritz
12-31-19, 01:53
Sounded like two shot from the bad guy and one from the good guy.
Here is one piece starting a side by side was used...
https://www.tmz.com/2019/12/29/gunman-opens-fire-white-settlement-texas-church-armed-guard/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=195&v=s5NzuGSkL2E&feature=emb_title
platoonDaddy
12-31-19, 06:53
talk about the 5-6 second window - action starts around :35 mark
https://www.facebook.com/tednugent/videos/celebrate/778046425997117/
Sounded like two shot from the bad guy and one from the good guy.
Here is one piece starting a side by side was used...
https://www.tmz.com/2019/12/29/gunman-opens-fire-white-settlement-texas-church-armed-guard/
The TMZ piece is wrong. The video clearly shows the bad guy working the slide and firing three shots.
I am going to go into a little detail, on why I think the terrorism label with some or most of the mass shootings we have had.
Terrorism traditional was to try and push a nationalistic or political position. I don't think we have any disagreement on this.
Then the anti American and Israel leftist started pushing the BS, one mans terrorist is an other mans freedom fighter. I 100% disagree with this for the following reason. If you are targeting civilians and especially women and children you lose the freedom fighter label. If however you target police and military only then you just might be a freedom fighter.
Today the left has built this stupid little fantasy world, where they try to shelter children from the facts of life. You will lose in life, and no you don't deserve a trophy just because you showed up. Yes you will have to face bullies at school, learn to be tough and fight back. You may get your ass kicked a few times, so what.
The left has tried to take that all that away. The character building things in life.
Then these boys and it so far has been to the best of my memory only been boys. Retreat into a fantasy world of video games, many of them violent. Where when I was a kid and we played army, some times one of us would get hurt. So we knew our actions, had consequences attached to them.
Then the school, put these boys on drugs, just making a bad situation worse.
So that in the end these boys feel less than zero, total losers.
They pick up a gun and enter into a mass shooting situation. Where they feel like masters of their surroundings and powerful as they see the terror on the faces as they shoot into the crowd,
The terror the people display feeds into the feeling of I am someone, I am strong look how they cower before me.
So terror is the vehicle, that feeds their ego.
So yes in my book it is a form of terrorism.
Folks, please stay on topic, Church attack in Texas.
Sounded like two shot from the bad guy and one from the good guy.
Bad guy shot 1 to guy who was sitting/standing.
Bad guy shot 2 to the guy standing.
Good guy shot 1 to bad guy.
Bad guy shot 3 as he is hit by good guy.
MA2_Navy_Veteran
12-31-19, 09:40
Give it up Yoni. It's pretty damn clear that you're wrong about this one being a terroristic act.
This was no more terrorism, than it was about the shooters "feels"... It was just a stupid thug doing the stupid things that stupid thugs do.
It's BS that so many try to automatically push the terrorism button any time someone with a firearm commits a crime in a setting where multiple (potential or actual) victims are present.
"Terrorists" almost always leave some form of "manifesto/suicide note/mission-statement" or die screaming out some word or catch phrase in a desperate attempt to get their "message" across "to the world".
& The only message this perp seems to have had was "give me the money"...
Bad guy shot 1 to guy who was sitting/standing.
Bad guy shot 2 to the guy standing.
Good guy shot 1 to bad guy.
Bad guy shot 3 as he is hit by good guy.
Watching the vid again, it almost appears the bad guy and good guy get off a shot simultaneously, possibly bad guy nervous system response to having a .357 Sig projectile pass through his squash. I watched and started and stopped vid a key points a bunch of times now and that's the conclusion I'm leaning toward currently.
Terrorist? Armed Robber? Whatever label you put on the suspect, he was an Active Shooter.
The saddest part about this incident is the loss of innocent human life before the Active Shooter's status was changed to Inactive. Does anyone know if the congregation has met again as a group for stress debriefing?
Give it up Yoni. It's pretty damn clear that you're wrong about this one being a terroristic act.
This was no more terrorism, than it was about the shooters "feels"... It was just a stupid thug doing the stupid things that stupid thugs do.
It's BS that so many try to automatically push the terrorism button any time someone with a firearm commits a crime in a setting where multiple (potential or actual) victims are present.
"Terrorists" almost always leave some form of "manifesto/suicide note/mission-statement" or die screaming out some word or catch phrase in a desperate attempt to get their "message" across "to the world".
& The only message this perp seems to have had was "give me the money"...
I think the use of the term is simply a bit different in his lexicon to ours, you et al perhaps using the term in the literal sense, he using it more in a "he terrorized a bunch of people and is a terrorist POS" kinda way. I suspect he's put down more terrorists in the literal and vaguer sense than just about any poster here, and maybe it's not worth the discussion its generating.
Personally I don't care all that much about the labels attributed to such creatures. A dead chit head is a dead chit head and his motives and such secondary.
It looks like it may have been a "simple" robbery in fact.
I will give it up if in fact he said give me the money, for then it is an armed robbery homicide.
A criminal act.
Terrorist? Armed Robber? Whatever label you put on the suspect, he was an Active Shooter.
He does not meet the DHS definition of an Active Shooter. All evidence points to this being a robbery gone bad.
Give it up Yoni. It's pretty damn clear that you're wrong about this one being a terroristic act.
This was no more terrorism, than it was about the shooters "feels"... It was just a stupid thug doing the stupid things that stupid thugs do.
It's BS that so many try to automatically push the terrorism button any time someone with a firearm commits a crime in a setting where multiple (potential or actual) victims are present.
"Terrorists" almost always leave some form of "manifesto/suicide note/mission-statement" or die screaming out some word or catch phrase in a desperate attempt to get their "message" across "to the world".
& The only message this perp seems to have had was "give me the money"...
The left is not the only one who likes to push their preferred narratives, and then cant handle it when they are wrong.
Folks want to believe this guy was Active Shooter who might have killed dozens, but that would have have been unlikely with a pump-action shotgun and 6 rounds. Reality was he was a career criminal committing another robbery when his career was ended.
He does not meet the DHS definition of an Active Shooter. All evidence points to this being a robbery gone bad.
From the DHS website: An “active shooter” is an individual who is engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area; in most cases, active shooters use firearms(s) and there is no pattern or method to their selection of victims.
My take on it is that it does not matter how or why the incident started. If an individual is actively shooting people in a confined and populated area, they are considered an Active Shooter and the response would be the same regardless of reason(s) for the shooter being in the area.
I would not consider the shooter a terrorist.
From the DHS website: An “active shooter” is an individual who is engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area; in most cases, active shooters use firearms(s) and there is no pattern or method to their selection of victims.
Except he was not attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area, nor were his victims at random. He was shooting specifically at people who confronted him, no different than any other robber. This might as well have occurred in a convenience store.
titsonritz
12-31-19, 13:54
“We’ve helped him on several occasions with food,” minister Britt Farmer told The Christian Chronicle. “He gets mad when we won’t give him cash. He’s been here on multiple occasions.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/12/31/texas-church-shooting-church-gave-killer-food-watching-him/2782276001/
“We’ve helped him on several occasions with food,” minister Britt Farmer told The Christian Chronicle. “He gets mad when we won’t give him cash. He’s been here on multiple occasions.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/12/31/texas-church-shooting-church-gave-killer-food-watching-him/2782276001/
Two of the churches in our area have a Breakfast Ministry. They open the basement of the church and feed homeless and near homeless people two days during the week. The safety and security of church members has been a concern due to a few incidents that occurred with people who have mental health issues. That's a risk you run when you offer assistance to people. Neither church that runs this program has a security plan in place.
He does not meet the DHS definition of an Active Shooter. All evidence points to this being a robbery gone bad.
I don't put a lot of stock in .fed definitions. They affect federal prosecutions and not much else.
I believe I've covered this elsewhere but it's looking more and more like this really was a simple armed robbery gone bad. That does impact my overall view of the event as a whole, but 100% of the blame still falls on the dead perp. We can MMQB the churchgoers' responses forever and it changes nothing.
We used to live in a different age, where hijackers didn't crash planes into buildings and deranged people didn't shoot large numbers of people in a concentrated space just because they felt like it. That ship has sailed. Anytime an unknown threat pulls a weapon in a space crowded with lots of people, you kinda have to assume he intends to inflict mass casualties until proven otherwise or neutralized.
So in this alleged robbery, or a gang related drive by, or a disgruntled ex employee re-entering the workplace with a gun, or a vengeful ex entering his spouse's workplace with a gun, or, or, or... motive is far less important than the fact they're whipping out a gat in a population dense space. Assume active shooter and respond accordingly. At least that makes sense to me, YMMV? :confused:
CleverNickname
01-01-20, 11:08
I don't put a lot of stock in .fed definitions.
What's a ".fed definition"?
What's a ".fed definition"?
Federal government agencies who make up definitions rather than accept the ones passed into law by Congress.
Federal government agencies who make up definitions rather than accept the ones passed into law by Congress.
Link to Congressionally passed definition of Active Shooter?
Link to Congressionally passed definition of Active Shooter?
Right next to the ones about congressionally sanctioned ATF regulations.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CleverNickname
01-01-20, 12:58
Federal government agencies who make up definitions rather than accept the ones passed into law by Congress.
Why not just say "federal government agencies" then?
I guess if you were talking about computers and DNS you could say ".gov" (.fed is not a TLD), but it sounds really dumb in any other context.
Bad guy shot 1 to guy who was sitting/standing.
Bad guy shot 2 to the guy standing.
Good guy shot 1 to bad guy.
Bad guy shot 3 as he is hit by good guy.
Gonna change this as Wilson says White got off a shot.
White shot 1 misses bad guy.
Bad guy shot 1 to White who was standing.
Bad guy shot 2 to the Wallace who was standing.
Wilson shot 1 to bad guy.
Bad guy shot 3 as he is hit by Wilson.
“We’ve helped him on several occasions with food,” minister Britt Farmer told The Christian Chronicle. “He gets mad when we won’t give him cash. He’s been here on multiple occasions.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/12/31/texas-church-shooting-church-gave-killer-food-watching-him/2782276001/My wife works at a church school. This is an ongoing problem. Many of the people who want help are mentally ill. Policy is not to unlock the doors, and the beggars get very agitated and they have to call the police.
My view: a big part of the so called "outbreak of mass violence" is the change of no longer institutionalizing mentally ill.
Gonna change this as Wilson says White got off a shot.
White shot 1 misses bad guy.
Bad guy shot 1 to White who was standing.
Bad guy shot 2 to the Wallace who was standing.
Wilson shot 1 to bad guy.
Bad guy shot 3 as he is hit by Wilson.
Do you have a link to that info? (Mr. White firing a shot)
It appeared he never got his muzzle up when I watched the video. Curious where that shot went.
I hate the term active shooter. Its just more ammo for the anti gunners. Active killer, goblin, dildo, scum, crazed killer, peice of trash, anything but shooter.
Do you have a link to that info? (Mr. White firing a shot)
It appeared he never got his muzzle up when I watched the video. Curious where that shot went.
"Richard did get his gun out of the holster, he was, I think, able to get a shot off but it ended up going into the wall. The shooter had turned, shot him and then shot Tony, and then started to turn to go to the front of the auditorium," Wilson recalled
Also says it in the video interview
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/churchs-head-of-security-says-he-killed-an-evil-not-a-human-in-taking-down-gunman/2283824/
Right next to the ones about congressionally sanctioned ATF regulations.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
Why not just say "federal government agencies" then?
I guess if you were talking about computers and DNS you could say ".gov" (.fed is not a TLD), but it sounds really dumb in any other context.
If I was trying to provide you a http link, you might have a point. IIRC (and I may not but it was off the top of my head) there are some government organizations that get to use the .gov link which aren’t federal. I tend to believe you knew exactly what I meant when I abbreviated “federal government agencies” with “.fed”, so I’m really not interested in how you feel about it, but thanks for playing.
CleverNickname
01-01-20, 22:20
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
If I was trying to provide you a http link, you might have a point. IIRC (and I may not but it was off the top of my head) there are some government organizations that get to use the .gov link which aren’t federal. I tend to believe you knew exactly what I meant when I abbreviated “federal government agencies” with “.fed”, so I’m really not interested in how you feel about it, but thanks for playing.
It comes across as trying to sound cool and techy, but failing hard.
Local TV interview with Jack Wilson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciJclao2TM&feature=youtu.be
Listen and pay attention to his view of the event.
I have read accounts of this from a variety of sources. I haven't seen any comment on how fortunate the RKBA community is that is was Jack Wilson, with all his training and qualifications, that was in the church, and not his cross-eyed brother Jethro Wilson.
Imagine how sideways this would have gone if, instead of a one pop stop, this had turned into wanna be good guy jerking his shot low and left into a parishioner's back. Actual bad buy racks another round, fires back, and hit another parishioner, etc., etc.
That video would be on a dedicated channel in a constant loop sponsored by MDA and Bloomberg for years.
Mr. Wilson gave a good interview. In my opinion, he would be an excellent witness in a court of law should one of his students find themselves in legal trouble.
Participating in an interview the day after the incident occurred had to be difficult for him.
Local TV interview with Jack Wilson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciJclao2TM&feature=youtu.be
Listen and pay attention to his view of the event.
Interesting to hear why he took the shot he did and all that. Many (most?) churches have no security, much less a team. Maybe this event will have them developing a team, vs pretending it can't happen to them. "Gun free zones" are a magnet to nuts who want body counts and no resistance.
And there we have it, proof liberal politcicians are getting people killed. Actually punish those who obtain illegally or use in a crime? Nah. Prevent law abiding people from access to firearms? Yes. F those people:
Confirmed: New Jersey gave Texas church gunman plea deal wiping out gun felony
WHITE SETTLEMENT, TEXAS- Last month’s shooting at West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, Texas, has sparked much conversation on the state’s gun laws, as well as proposed gun-related legislation in states like Virginia.
Another thing that has come to light from this tragedy relates to bail reform taking place in several states, most notably New York.
Since the shooting, it’s been discovered that the gunman, 43-year-old Keith Thomas Kinnunen, now deceased after being shot by the church’s head of their volunteer security group, Jack Wilson, had previous run-ins with law enforcement in Texas, as well as other states.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/confirmed-new-jersey-gave-texas-church-gunman-plea-deal-wiping-out-gun-felony/
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