View Full Version : Psa uppers
kylebaker24
01-01-20, 13:50
Hey everyone I'm new to the Ar world, but was looking into building one of my own. Was wondering the qaulity of the Palmetto State armory complete uppers.
The general recommendation would be to avoid for your primary rifle. They are not known for high QA/QC. That doesn’t mean they are junk, just not where you want to start. I did use a PSA lower for my first “build,” and don’t regret it, but I made sure to spend the money for a reputable upper.
What’s the purpose of your planned rifle?
What sort of budget are you working with?
If you can provide those answers, you can get some good recommendations.
kylebaker24
01-01-20, 14:15
The purpose would probably be a home defense gun/fun gun, for some range shooting. And for my budget I would like to keep it under 800 or 700 bucks, but I plan to build it little by little starting with the lower then just buying a complete upper
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 14:24
I've got a few PSA uppers in 5.56 and 7.62x39. They all run just fine.
So they are maybe not as refined as the top-shelf uppers on the market, but they are about the same as what our military has used for decades.
If you go PSA, it would be a good thing to get the CHF upper, and Premium BCG, if your budget allows it. They are still very reasonable, and have chrome lining and o-ring extractors.
If you are looking for a serviceable, budget-friendly upper, buy PSA with confidence.
kylebaker24
01-01-20, 14:26
Thanks so then I could get a good bcg separately from the upper
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 14:31
Most of the basic 'freedom' upper include the basic BCG/CH. I have a few and they all run fine.
I also have a CHF upper, that came without BCG/CH, and I ordered the premium BCG for that, and a couple other upper builds I had going.
They are all serviceable.
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 14:33
I've also got Colt and BCM rigs. You cannot tell them from the PSA by looking at the targets, or rate of stoppages (extremely rare in all examples).
If you are looking for a home defense weapon, I would recommend spending a little more on the upper, perhaps something like this:
https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-standard-16-mid-length-light-weight-upper-receiver-group-625fsb/
You’ll still need a charging handle and bolt carrier group. You could pick up both right now during the BCM sale going on at www.primaryarms.com. Or, do what I tend to do and nab on there Equipment Exchange. Others would recommend a Toolcraft BCG as a solid option for half the cost.
Then, you’ll need at least a rear sight. The Magpul MBUS is not ideal, but is serviceable. They are intended to be backups. You could also pick up a Daniel Defense fixed rear sight. Or, if you don’t plan on adding an optic (red dot sight) in the future, you could get a used Colt, BCM, or LMT carry handle for pretty cheap.
I don’t intend to be argumentative about this, but PSA uppers are absolutely not assembled to the same standards seen on military rifles from Colt and FN. I personally don’t see evidence that the materials or parts are inferior, but they are not made to the same specifications (like gas port size) or quality standards (canted front sights). BCM is right there, though.
On PSA uppers and BCG, I had and sold I had the premium version of both. The BCG was super rough in the upper, more than my BCM, Colt, Sionics, or Toolcraft BCG. And the upper kicked hard (relatively speaking, as this is .223) compared to Colt, BCM, or Ballistic Advantage.
kylebaker24
01-01-20, 14:40
I plan to have an optic most likely a reflex, but also use flip ups as my backups
If you do the math...
$439 - BCM upper
<$100 - Toolcraft nitride BCG (or $125-160 for other good options)
$55 - BCM or Radian Raptor charging handle
Why buy PSA?
You almost have enough to pick up a BCM blemished complete lower for $315.
I've got a few PSA uppers in 5.56 and 7.62x39. They all run just fine.
So they are maybe not as refined as the top-shelf uppers on the market, but they are about the same as what our military has used for decades.
If you go PSA, it would be a good thing to get the CHF upper, and Premium BCG, if your budget allows it. They are still very reasonable, and have chrome lining and o-ring extractors.
If you are looking for a serviceable, budget-friendly upper, buy PSA with confidence.
Whole lot of nope here. Basic features, sure, they’re similar because they’re all basic. But they’re far from being about the same as our issues Colts and FNs. PSA’s consistency and QA/QC is known to be lacking at best, non-existent at worse. They make tons of guns that work, but they also make a much higher percentage of flawed guns and components than the better brands out there. I’ve been super happy that mine has right around 1k rounds through it without an issue, but the staking on the original BCG was super weak and I still expect it to fail at any point. My current one can shoot a 1” group at 50m while another one that I had was sitting at 3”.
PSAs are good if you truly can’t afford better, without saving for many more months. But that’s only their really cheap stuff and it should have the expectation of failure. Their CHF line is supposed to be better, but typically are so close in price to the actual good companies that it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
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Personally I’d pick the cheapest BCM upper I can find and put something like a Centurion or SOLGW BCG in it if I was truly tight on budget.
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I know you mentioned putting together a lower or something, but unless you plan on using an A5 system, it’s hard to beat and Aero Precision complete lower sans stock for $151.99. And you can probably find cheaper somewhere like armorally.com or spicetac.com.
https://www.rainierarms.com/aero-precision-m4e1-carbine-complete-lower-receiver-w-a2-grip-no-stock-black/
BCM Blem Lower for $300 (Plus whatever your go to FFL charges.)
https://www.k-var.com/bcm-gunfighter-lower-group-blk-blem
Or if you want to save a little up front and piece it together, this is a great deal.
Sionics guttless lower receiver. $160
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/sionics-lower-receiver-assemblies/162-patrol-rifle-zero.html
Then slap on whichever BCM/Colt/LMT/KAC/DD upper you want and you're set.
Honestly though, I'd bump up your budget to the $900-$1000 range if possible, it opens a lot of doors and you won't regret having purchased a higher quality rifle.
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titsonritz
01-01-20, 15:37
Whole lot of nope here. Basic features, sure, they’re similar because they’re all basic. But they’re far from being about the same as our issues Colts and FNs. PSA’s consistency and QA/QC is known to be lacking at best, non-existent at worse. They make tons of guns that work, but they also make a much higher percentage of flawed guns and components than the better brands out there. I’ve been super happy that mine has right around 1k rounds through it without an issue, but the staking on the original BCG was super weak and I still expect it to fail at any point. My current one can shoot a 1” group at 50m while another one that I had was sitting at 3”.
PSAs are good if you truly can’t afford better, without saving for many more months. But that’s only their really cheap stuff and it should have the expectation of failure. Their CHF line is supposed to be better, but typically are so close in price to the actual good companies that it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
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Not to mention having an o-ring on the extractor spring is not a selling point, those o-rings were a stop gap used to make up for crappy springs. Use a Colt copper colored spring or the 5 coil from Sprinco and the o-ring is not needed.
I agree 100% with this summary.
If you do the math...
$439 - BCM upper
<$100 - Toolcraft nitride BCG (or $125-160 for other good options)
$55 - BCM or Radian Raptor charging handle
Why buy PSA?
You almost have enough to pick up a BCM blemished complete lower for $315.
Don't forget hand guards and a rear sight.
IMO, a FSB upper would not be my first recommendation for what the OP has mentioned in his posts.
$439 BCM upper with FSB
$35 midlength handguards from BCM or takeoffs (quite possibly less)
$49 Raptor charging handle @sunnystateoutdoors
$90 Toolcraft nitride BCG @righttobear (I think)
$162 Aero lower
$35 stock
That’s $810. Doesn’t count shipping from Rainier or BCM. Not trying to race to the bottom here, but that’s bare minimum. I would imagine that a FSB should be on anyone’s single rifle, but that’s just me. A rear sight can run from $25 used to $40 somewhere on sale for Magpul MBUS, as I mentioned before.
Alternatively, if a free float handguard is needed to support night vision or a future LPVO purchase... Ballistic Advantage for $467.25 shipped is below with basic charging handle, phosphate BCG, and free shipping. Can’t speak to the entire quality, though I’d imagine it’s at least decent, and I’d purchase way before PSA. Add in $50 for a Magpul MBUS set from Palmetto State.
https://i.imgur.com/DoPQ8jx.jpg
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 16:09
If you do the math...
$439 - BCM upper
<$100 - Toolcraft nitride BCG (or $125-160 for other good options)
$55 - BCM or Radian Raptor charging handle
Why buy PSA?
You almost have enough to pick up a BCM blemished complete lower for $315.
It just depends on the budget.
Your example is a nice way to roll, and runs $594, without handguards.
A complete PSA upper is a viable and serviceable option for $219.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-classic-freedom-m4-upper-with-bcg-and-ch.html
The differences again would be assembly, specs, and QC. Nothing like a loose barrel nut to ruin your day...
If someone were looking to spend under $650 (and since the Colt OEM-2’s are long gone), I’d probably just point to a factory assembled M&P15. At least then you have a warranty on a complete rifle from a huge manufacturer.
I’m not knocking PSA altogether. My SBR lower is PSA, though it’s mostly VLTOR and Geissele at this point. In fact, I just purchased new springs and small parts from FCD which will make the only thing PSA the stripped lower itself. But still, a PSA lower isn’t the end of the world, in my mind.
But if we’re looking at where the explosions happen? I’d prefer that to not be PSA, unless it is an “extra” gun. I’d have no problem with one of their 10.5” CHF uppers. But not as my only carbine.
Understand your audience...
M4 Carbine.net is a group of mostly Military, LEO, firearms industry venders, that push there equipment hard. Understand that the first recommendation that you get here will not the cheapest AR budget rifle, as great of an experience as some may have with the budget AR rifle. Palmetto State Armory is priced right for what you get but for a few hundred dollars more you can buy an AR with a well documented QC program. Failure of your AR at the wrong time could cost you more than you may be willing to pay, if you get my drift.
With that said I own the following AR’s: 1 PSA, 3 Aero Precision, 1 BCM, and 1 LMT. I use the Areo Precision and PSA AR’s the most. The LMT and BCM take turns standing ready should they ever be needed in a moments notice.
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 16:55
There are a lot of way to roll, and the best decision will be the informed decision.
Since the question is about PSA uppers, there's a series of what I would consider very objective evaluation of the PSA Freedom AR15 online by Rob Ski.
Here's the last of the series, after a 5000 round evaluation/test,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crdPv6nAQwU
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 16:56
Another objective PSA Freedom review here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzPcs5hWk_4
Straight Shooter
01-01-20, 18:00
Whole lot of nope here. Basic features, sure, they’re similar because they’re all basic. But they’re far from being about the same as our issues Colts and FNs. PSA’s consistency and QA/QC is known to be lacking at best, non-existent at worse. They make tons of guns that work, but they also make a much higher percentage of flawed guns and components than the better brands out there. I’ve been super happy that mine has right around 1k rounds through it without an issue, but the staking on the original BCG was super weak and I still expect it to fail at any point. My current one can shoot a 1” group at 50m while another one that I had was sitting at 3”.
PSAs are good if you truly can’t afford better, without saving for many more months. But that’s only their really cheap stuff and it should have the expectation of failure. Their CHF line is supposed to be better, but typically are so close in price to the actual good companies that it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
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100% AGREE with your statement Wake27, let me say that right off.
They HAVE made their fair share or more of problematic stuff. And also 100% correct nowhere near Colt/FN spec quality.
NOW, THAT SAID- as for the rifles that ARE built right, that HAVE been vetted...whats your opinion, & everyone elses here, on those specific rifles?
The ones I own, & the ones Ive shot, have all been as accurate as most any other. Mine shoots like yours Wake27.
I do not put them up as anywhere near quality of Sionics, Colt, FN, LMT, which is my primary rifle, or any of the known high end guns.
I merely report that MINE has shot 1610 or so rounds flawlessly. Used many different type mags, all fit/fed/dropped100%.
Got it hotter twice than any rifle I ever shot, including in the Marine Corps. Ran it dirty. Been over it as best I could looking for improper build or parts. None.
So, Im ASKING- those of you down on PSA rightly or wrongly, would YOU consider this rifle SD/SHTF ect. worthy at this point?
If not, what else would it take? What do I need to check for at this point?
You wont hurt my feelings with facts or info, so have at it.
The purpose would probably be a home defense gun/fun gun, for some range shooting. And for my budget I would like to keep it under 800 or 700 bucks, but I plan to build it little by little starting with the lower then just buying a complete upper
A lot of good advice here from the seasoned members. You just missed the sale of the century on Black Friday with so many deals to be had from so many quality companies. But if you look around, especially at some of the companies that advertise here and the EE you will still be able to put together a quality rifle at a good price.
Straight Shooter
01-01-20, 18:15
OP- theres an unfired, BCM 16" middy in the Exhange for $550, just an fyi.
What’s the purpose of your planned rifle?
It doesn't really matter because 90% of the time, the right choice is an AR with a 16 inch barrel and an adjustable stock.
The purpose would probably be a home defense gun/fun gun, for some range shooting. And for my budget I would like to keep it under 800 or 700 bucks, but I plan to build it little by little starting with the lower then just buying a complete upper
See what I mean?
Kyle, a PSA wil teach you more about troubleshooting and tweaking an AR than you'll ever want to know.
There's a complete BCM upper with 15" kmr, bcm bcg and gunfighter charging handle right now for $550.
100% AGREE with your statement Wake27, let me say that right off.
They HAVE made they fair share or more of problematic stuff. And also 100% correct nowhere near Colt/FN spec quality.
NOW, THAT SAID- as for the rifles that ARE built right, that HAVE been vetted...whats your opinion, & everyone elses here, on those specific rifles?
The ones I own, & the ones Ive shot, have all been as accurate as most any other. Mine shoots like yours Wake27.
I do not put them up as anywhere near quality of Sionics, Colt, FN, LMT, which is my primary rifle, or any of the known high end guns.
I merely report that MINE has shot 1610 or so rounds flawlessly. Used many different type mags, all fit/fed/dropped100%.
Got it hotter twice than any rifle I ever shot, including in the Marine Corps. Ran it dirty. Been over it as best I could looking for improper build or parts. None.
So, Im ASKING- those of you down on PSA rightly or wrongly, would YOU consider this rifle SD/SHTF ect. worthy at this point?
If not, what else would it take? What do I need to check for at this point?
You wont hurt my feelings with facts or info, so have at it.
I have no idea to be honest. I go back and forth on it. I swapped the standard BCG with the weak staking that was included for one of their premium BCGs and I've never had any type of issue with the rifle, at all. I have 945 rounds through it, mixture of steel cased and brass and I don't think I've cleaned it. So by all means, it may be completely good to go for thousands of more rounds. But I have KAC and BCMs that would all be in the chute first and personally, I don't think I would ever fully trust it just because I know it isn't built and checked to the same standards.
kylebaker24
01-01-20, 19:10
Also was looking at aero uppers seem to be good qaulity
Straight Shooter
01-01-20, 19:19
I have no idea to be honest. I go back and forth on it. I swapped the standard BCG with the weak staking that was included for one of their premium BCGs and I've never had any type of issue with the rifle, at all. I have 945 rounds through it, mixture of steel cased and brass and I don't think I've cleaned it. So by all means, it may be completely good to go for thousands of more rounds. But I have KAC and BCMs that would all be in the chute first and personally, I don't think I would ever fully trust it just because I know it isn't built and checked to the same standards.
And thats a fair answer sir. My LMT is first out also. But I tell you, right now wouldnt bother me a bit to rely on the PSA. More testing to come this years as funds allow, which is exactly why I bought two in the first place...one is an election year investment, & the other to see if "PSA'S ARE JUNK" is true.
So far it aint.
Also was looking at aero uppers seem to be good qaulity
OP, Aero makes the receivers for Ballistic Advantage (same corporation owns both companies), and I assume most of the other parts are the shared. I “heard” that Aero barrels are sourced from Ballistic Advantage, which would make good sense.
Overall, considering the volume of rifles produced, I have heard of fewer problems with Aero products, and I’d personally choose them over PSA. Their M4E1 lower is beautiful.
NWcityguy2
01-01-20, 19:27
Understand your audience...
M4 Carbine.net is a group of mostly Military, LEO, firearms industry venders, that push there equipment hard.
Understand that M4C is a website where anyone can make a profile, and the only qualification is not being stoopid enough to make an inappropriate screen name. As for me, I meet three of the four qualifiers that 5.56Geo threw out there. I'm also the president of a competitive shooting club, have been a match director for 5 years, hold the rank of Master with both USPSA and IDPA, and have been shooting competitively for 10 or so years.
I see lots of PSA built uppers, most of them from the Freedom line. They work very well and are a good option for people who are on a budget, don't plan on using a magnified optic, and don't reload for accuracy. If you plan on doing the last two of those things, I'd recommend a different barrel maker because it has been my experience that PSA Freedom barrels are 2moa accurate even with quality ammo. The vast majority of AR problems that I see are maintenance related, and the ones that are not are almost all from brands that existed back in the 90s.
Also understand that when people offer advice, some of them are speaking from their own personal experience, some of them are repeating things they have read, and some of them are speculating on things that could possibly happen in the future. I don't say this to be passive aggressive, but there is a reason why almost every PSA thread on M4C gets locked.
I suppose, in fairness, I should add that my BCM carbine spring compressed (reduced length) substantially faster than a PSA spring with nearly equal round count. It was like 3/4” difference.
EDITED. It’s all been said.
NWcityguy2
01-01-20, 19:45
To add to my previous post, I reviewed my PSA premium upper a few years back when it hit approx 6k rounds. That review can be found here: (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=489721 (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=489721) I still use the rifle to this day.
I have also reviewed my PSA Freedom upper that had a stainless barrel at approx 4000-5000 rounds, showing its accuracy loss. That can be found here: https://thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ar-15-barrel-wear-report.814520/#post-10426482 The non-barrel parts from that rifle are still in circulation in my current AR builds.
Overall, considering the volume of rifles produced, I have heard of fewer problems with Aero products, and I’d personally choose them over PSA. Their M4E1 lower is beautiful.
Comparitively, I would hope you heard of fewer problems with Aero rifles, since they made 1,490 rifles in 2017, compared to 28,562 for PSA.
Here is a comparison of numbers from 2017 ATF reports:
PSA: rifles manufactured: 28,562 misc. firearms manufactured: 128,529 pistols manufactured: 1,410
Aero: rifles manufactured: 1,490 misc. firearms manufactured: 78,033 pistols manufactured: 2
BCM: rifles manufactured: 6,467 misc. firearms manufactured: none reported pistols manufactured: 593
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics
Looking at the numbers PSA is more of a 'people's rifle' than other brands. You might also think that based on quantities ordered they are able to buy parts comparable in quality to other manufacturers at better prices.
NOW, THAT SAID- as for the rifles that ARE built right, that HAVE been vetted...whats your opinion, & everyone elses here, on those specific rifles?
A rifle that has been vetted, and works, has been vetted, and works. So, if you trust your gun, rock it. That said, spit happens, and is more likely to happen with rifles built to a lesser standard. For example a gas block screw, gas key screw, or receiver extension going unsat at an inopportune time.
That said, I have a PSA upper and a spare PSA BCG that work acceptably. I put one of Clint’s gas tubes in the upper to correct the overgassing and added a Sionics BCG. It is roughly as accurate as a rack M4 or M16, and reliable. Its a fun rifle that I enjoy shooting, and I use it to maintain proficiency with irons. The spare BCG now has a Colt extractor spring, and floats around as a spare.
Problems I found:
1) like every other PSA barrel I have checked, its not really a 5.56 chamber.
2) the crush washer was installed backwards.
3) the reason it was installed backwards is that the thread shoulder has a weird false shoulder on it, also like every PSA barrel I have checked
4) horribly overgassed, even with .223 ammo
5) no dimples for the set screw gas block, and of course not pinned
6) BCG not made to TDP, but has adequate staking.
7) incorrectly marked 5.56
OP, I would recommend looking at companies like Colt, SOLGW, Sionics, and BCM for your budget upper needs. Aero/BA might also be a good option, but my only experience has been with stripped uppers and barrels. Sionics is pretty inexpensive. I’ve been unfracking a buddy’s budget gun for him lately, and honestly, its been a frustrating experience, and he would be best served by obtaining a different rifle. Don’t buy garbage.
I’m not the owner of a well-respected small manufacturer or anyone else suggesting that PSA gets their supply as blemishes from OEM’s. And, I never thought that really made sense when it was suggested. Economy of scale is a thing.
As I recall, Aero is or was the OEM for other companies, as well, though I doubt that would get their numbers to PSA levels
Straight Shooter
01-01-20, 21:34
A rifle that has been vetted, and works, has been vetted, and works. So, if you trust your gun, rock it. That said, spit happens, and is more likely to happen with rifles built to a lesser standard. For example a gas block screw, gas key screw, or receiver extension going unsat at an inopportune time.
That said, I have a PSA upper and a spare PSA BCG that work acceptably. I put one of Clint’s gas tubes in the upper to correct the overgassing and added a Sionics BCG. It is roughly as accurate as a rack M4 or M16, and reliable. Its a fun rifle that I enjoy shooting, and I use it to maintain proficiency with irons. The spare BCG now has a Colt extractor spring, and floats around as a spare.
Problems I found:
1) like every other PSA barrel I have checked, its not really a 5.56 chamber.
2) the crush washer was installed backwards.
3) the reason it was installed backwards is that the thread shoulder has a weird false shoulder on it, also like every PSA barrel I have checked
4) horribly overgassed, even with .223 ammo
5) no dimples for the set screw gas block, and of course not pinned
6) BCG not made to TDP, but has adequate staking.
7) incorrectly marked 5.56
OP, I would recommend looking at companies like Colt, SOLGW, Sionics, and BCM for your budget upper needs. Aero/BA might also be a good option, but my only experience has been with stripped uppers and barrels. Sionics is pretty inexpensive. I’ve been unfracking a buddy’s budget gun for him lately, and honestly, its been a frustrating experience, and he would be best served by obtaining a different rifle. Don’t buy garbage.
I do appreciate that 1168- I too have thought "ok, its been gtg this far, but is it getting near time for problems to show up". My testing will continue.
Another objective PSA Freedom review here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzPcs5hWk_4
Yup, I like Mr. G&G and he has several good reviews of them but I searched PSA rifle fails or something like that and this (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/palmetto-state-armory-psa-ar-15-review/)was the first thing that popped up. Its actually a positive review and the idiot summarized it by rating them 5/5 for reliability, but if you read it, both of the "5.56" uppers had failures in the first mag.
If you buy a PSA, it might work but it might also not. That's true of anything, but by the vast majority of accounts, its more likely not to work than many other brands.
MontanaMarine
01-01-20, 23:07
I've got a total of five PSA uppers.
-
- 10.5" 5.56
- 11.5" 5.56
- 14.7" 5.56
-10.5" 7.62x39
-16" 7.62x39
I find them to run well, staked well, crush washers all correctly installed.
I'll say they are not as smooth out of the box as my BCM or Colt. But if you lube them up, and run 200-300 rounds through them, they slick right up.
NWcityguy2
01-02-20, 00:06
Problems I found:
1) like every other PSA barrel I have checked, its not really a 5.56 chamber.
2) the crush washer was installed backwards.
3) the reason it was installed backwards is that the thread shoulder has a weird false shoulder on it, also like every PSA barrel I have checked
7) incorrectly marked 5.56
So basically, PSA sell tens of thousands of rifles a year and who knows how many more barreled uppers, but they don't know how to cut a chamber (FN too?) and you're the one who is spreading the word about it?
OP, Aero makes the receivers for Ballistic Advantage (same corporation owns both companies), and I assume most of the other parts are the shared. I “heard” that Aero barrels are sourced from Ballistic Advantage, which would make good sense.
Overall, considering the volume of rifles produced, I have heard of fewer problems with Aero products, and I’d personally choose them over PSA. Their M4E1 lower is beautiful.
I'll share my experience and opinion.
For a complete upper I can not recommend Aero.
I was going to create a separate thread on this a year or so back, but decided it was not worth the time. While quality of individual parts were okay, assembly (the most important part) was a complete joke. Interestingly, reliability was 100% during the time I had it before changing it (about 1-1.2k rounds), I was surprised it did not blow up in my face with improper headspace or some other failure. Here are the issues I had with my first and last complete Aero upper:
1. Handguard loose - screws were not torqued properly or locktited
2. Muzzle device - not torqued properly, hand tight
3. Gas block - not pinned, not dimpled, non-knurled screws, no locktite on screws, screws not torqued properly - light hand tight. Gas block loose on a barrel as a wizard's sleeve - definitely out of spec.
4. Barrel nut - not torqued properly, barely hand tight, no anti-seize on threads or a barrel extension.
To summarize above, pretty much everything which required assembly was incorrect. From the assembly line it was a pile of sh-t.
I still kept the Aero upper after I rebuilt it properly, but I would only use it for range practice. Barrel is surprisingly accurate in it.
After that, I decided to only buy a Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, or maybe Centurion Arms uppers with additional self verification on assembly, function, and fit on all of the brands or just build uppers myself (though not really wanting to do that).
You sometimes read about issues with Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, KAC and such to a lesser degree than a budget brands, but they still do exist.
I would only buy a complete Aero or PSA upper either for donor parts or if you're comfortable stripping it to parts and rebuilding it yourself with the proper tools and methods.
I must say that individual Aero parts have been of a fairly good quality; PSA is hit and miss with about 50% success rate for me - i.e. not a duty grade.
Probably one of the best deal I have seen is a Colt CCU upper from Brownells for around $500 (on sale) just add a quality bolt and a charging handle.
NWcityguy2
01-02-20, 00:56
Its actually a positive review and the idiot summarized it by rating them 5/5 for reliability, but if you read it, both of the "5.56" uppers had failures in the first mag.
So you googled PSA rifle fails and the result you're bringing back is a gun that has two misfeeds in its first two mags but the problem went away within the same shooting session, and a gun that had one misfeed on its first mag but the problem went away within the same shooting session?
So you googled PSA rifle fails and the result you're bringing back is a gun that has two misfeeds in its first two mags but the problem went away within the same shooting session, and a gun that had one misfeed on its first mag but the problem went away within the same shooting session?
Yeah, that’s a problem. No AR should require a break in period. And it’s not like those are the only reported issues. There are plenty of closed threads over the years (mainly from IG) about why PSA isn’t just as good as better manufacturers. Again, I like mine, especially for the price, but you’re more likely to get one with issues than you are from BCM.
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I'll share my experience and opinion.
For a complete upper I can not recommend Aero.
I was going to create a separate thread on this a year or so back, but decided it was not worth the time. While quality of individual parts were okay, assembly (the most important part) was a complete joke. Interestingly, reliability was 100% during the time I had it before changing it (about 1-1.2k rounds), I was surprised it did not blow up in my face with improper headspace or some other failure. Here are the issues I had with my first and last complete Aero upper:
1. Handguard loose - screws were not torqued properly or locktited
2. Muzzle device - not torqued properly, hand tight
3. Gas block - not pinned, not dimpled, non-knurled screws, no locktite on screws, screws not torqued properly - light hand tight. Gas block loose on a barrel as a wizard's sleeve - definitely out of spec.
4. Barrel nut - not torqued properly, barely hand tight, no anti-seize on threads or a barrel extension.
To summarize above, pretty much everything which required assembly was incorrect. From the assembly line it was a pile of sh-t.
I still kept the Aero upper after I rebuilt it properly, but I would only use it for range practice. Barrel is surprisingly accurate in it.
After that, I decided to only buy a Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, or maybe Centurion Arms uppers with additional self verification on assembly, function, and fit on all of the brands or just build uppers myself (though not really wanting to do that).
You sometimes read about issues with Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, KAC and such to a lesser degree than a budget brands, but they still do exist.
I would only buy a complete Aero or PSA upper either for donor parts or if you're comfortable stripping it to parts and rebuilding it yourself with the proper tools and methods.
I must say that individual Aero parts have been of a fairly good quality; PSA is hit and miss with about 50% success rate for me - i.e. not a duty grade.
Probably one of the best deal I have seen is a Colt CCU upper from Brownells for around $500 (on sale) just add a quality bolt and a charging handle.
My only experience with Aero’s uppers are from a buddy of mine. First day at the range with his AC-15, there were issues with the FCG. It seemed like a burr and went away after a few mags, but again, break-in period. Love their stripped lowers though.
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Kyle, here’s another good option for an upper. The price is well outside your range now, but the key is to watch for it to go on sale for ~$550 or so, then use one of Brownells’ discount codes. I got mine for $491 shipped, and earlier this fall they were going for $450-460. That is incredibly good for a complete Colt after float upper with a Centurion Arms handguard. You would need to add a charging handle and BCG. Patience is key, but it seems like you may be willing to wait it out for a good deal for a good product.
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/ar-15-le6960-ccu-upper-receiver-5-56-m-lok-prod120469.aspx
So basically, PSA sell tens of thousands of rifles a year and who knows how many more barreled uppers, but they don't know how to cut a chamber (FN too?) and you're the one who is spreading the word about it?
Have you measured any with a chamber gauge? Or are you just blindly defending them? My chamber gauge does not care how many rifles a year they sell.
If they install the crush washer backwards to cover up a cut-rate thread job, do you think it might be possible that they do other things incorrectly? I mean, no company that sells a lot of products would ever lie about a dimension that few know how to check, right?
I’m sure they and FN know exactly what they’re doing with the chamber. It just ain’t 5.56, for whatever reason they may have. I could forgive that if they were honest on the marking, but they’re not. Really, lots of barrels, especially budget brands are not. But just because their barrels are made by FN does not automatically make them infallible. Its not a gov contract rifle.
I simply reported my findings. No axe to grind with them.
Renegade04
01-02-20, 07:58
Also was looking at aero uppers seem to be good quality
Aero Precision makes good stuff. I bought one of their upper assemblies from Primary Arms a few months back when they were on sale. I added my own BCG and CH. PSA offers several good options for upper assemblies. My advice, stick with their Freedom and CHF upper assemblies. You can get a really nice upgraded upper assembly for a good price as they have sales on frequently. Just after Christmas, I ordered one of their Classic Freedom M4 type uppers (w/o BCG and CH). I ordered an Aero Precision phosphate M16 BCG from Primary Arms when they were on sale. I already have a standard CH to use with it. The lower assembly I have had built for a year cost more than the entire upper assembly. Even with the cost of the Primary Arms Micro SLx and mount I am mounting on it, I am still in for about $650 and that includes the MAGPUL MBUS rear sight I have had laying around. This is one of my least expensive ARs I have slapped together. I have many more that cost quite a bit more, but for what I am going to use this for (general plinking and for the wife to shoot), it will more than suffice. Do not let others sway you from PSA products. You just have to be aware of what you are buying. Make the best use of your funds and that means budgeting for the AR, optic (if needed/wanted), BUIS, magazines, and ammo to get you started.
Steve Shannon
01-02-20, 09:23
Have you measured any with a chamber gauge? Or are you just blindly defending them? My chamber gauge does not care how many rifles a year they sell.
If they install the crush washer backwards to cover up a cut-rate thread job, do you think it might be possible that they do other things incorrectly? I mean, no company that sells a lot of products would ever lie about a dimension that few know how to check, right?
I’m sure they and FN know exactly what they’re doing with the chamber. It just ain’t 5.56, for whatever reason they may have. I could forgive that if they were honest on the marking, but they’re not. Really, lots of barrels, especially budget brands are not. But just because their barrels are made by FN does not automatically make them infallible. Its not a gov contract rifle.
I simply reported my findings. No axe to grind with them.
I’m curious to know exactly what your chamber gauges showed. If it’s not 5.56, what is it?
Was it a full go/no go set, a field gauge, or what? I’m wondering what I should check for, if you don’t mind sharing.
Thanks!
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NWcityguy2
01-02-20, 10:22
Certainly one of the less believable "I'm am correct but offer no photos, sample sizes or measurement, just results" claims I've seen here over the years.
Eurodriver
01-02-20, 10:29
Certainly one of the less believable "I'm am correct but offer no photos, sample sizes or measurement, just results" claims I've seen here over the years.
Lmao.
Straight Shooter
01-02-20, 10:52
I believe 1168.
I am definitely curious as to what those chambers actually are.
And- WHY wouldnt they cut them to true 5.56 spec? Would that be more costly or what?
1168- how far off are they?
Also- gents, lets not get the thread closed please. Regardless of ones feelings about PSA rifles, there is good knowledge/info being passed on here.
bamashooter
01-02-20, 11:24
I have multiple PSAs. One upper had an incomplete machining process which PSA quickly took care of. Now it and all others have been just fine.
I just recently purchased a PSA upper on Black Friday. This is my first PSA upper as I have perhaps a couple dozen other rifles. The only other brand I have purchased as complete uppers is BCM.
I purchased their 10.5” FN marked CHF upper. I also purchased their pistol lower build kit.
As a disclaimer, I am a former employee of a firearms manufacturing company and I have built literally thousands of AR15 and M16 rifles in the 10 years I worked for them. I have also built several PSA rifles for friends that wanted a cheap rifle.
Here is my no BS assessment of PSA.
-A good portion of their parts are pretty decent. Not top tier but good enough.
-Their lower parts have gotten way better in the past couple years. The lower I just built functions very nicely. Safety is crisp, trigger is smooth etc.
-I would shy away from most of their barrels if hard use is what you intend to do with it. The CHF stuff seems to be quite nice.
-Their action springs and buffers are hot steaming crap soaked garbage! Replace them immediately!
-Their BCGs are interesting. They are different every time. Sometimes they are nice and look like mil-spec and other times they look like cheap nitrided garbage.
— The biggest issue i have is their assembly of their complete uppers. Any time I have purchased one I have taken them apart and rebuilt them. Whoever is building them in house should be beaten over the head with a hammer! I have seen the stupidest crap with their assembled uppers! I have seen loose gas blocks, loose or over tightened muzzle devices and barrel nuts.
The last upper I purchased had a standard GI barrel nut and was tightened to about 100 ft/lbs of torque! It took a Magpul barrel wrench with a breaker bar attached and my 230 pound ass hanging on it to break it free! The front threads of the upper receiver were bent and bare metal was showing. Fortunately, I was able to reassemble the upper and everything lined up with about 45 ft/lbs of torque.
So long story short, for a first rifle that will see any type of home / personal defense use, I do not recommend a PSA upper or complete rifle. I would purchase a BCM upper and source a decent lower. If you want a range and training rifle a PSA upper will be fine but have a knowledgeable armorer look it over first.
Straight Shooter
01-02-20, 11:38
I just recently purchased a PSA upper on Black Friday. This is my first PSA upper as I have perhaps a couple dozen other rifles. The only other brand I have purchased as complete uppers is BCM.
I purchased their 10.5” FN marked CHF upper. I also purchased their pistol lower build kit.
As a disclaimer, I am a former employee of a firearms manufacturing company and I have built literally thousands of AR15 and M16 rifles in the 10 years I worked for them. I have also built several PSA rifles for friends that wanted a cheap rifle.
Here is my no BS assessment of PSA.
-A good portion of their parts are pretty decent. Not top tier but good enough.
-Their lower parts have gotten way better in the past couple years. The lower I just built functions very nicely. Safety is crisp, trigger is smooth etc.
-I would shy away from most of their barrels if hard use is what you intend to do with it. The CHF stuff seems to be quite nice.
-Their action springs and buffers are hot steaming crap soaked garbage! Replace them immediately!
-Their BCGs are interesting. They are different every time. Sometimes they are nice and look like mil-spec and other times they look like cheap nitrided garbage.
— The biggest issue i have is their assembly of their complete uppers. Any time I have purchased one I have taken them apart and rebuilt them. Whoever is building them in house should be beaten over the head with a hammer! I have seen the stupidest crap with their assembled uppers! I have seen loose gas blocks, loose or over tightened muzzle devices and barrel nuts.
The last upper I purchased had a standard GI barrel nut and was tightened to about 100 ft/lbs of torque! It took a Magpul barrel wrench with a breaker bar attached and my 230 pound ass hanging on it to break it free! The front threads of the upper receiver were bent and bare metal was showing. Fortunately, I was able to reassemble the upper and everything lined up with about 45 ft/lbs of torque.
So long story short, for a first rifle that will see any type of home / personal defense use, I do not recommend a PSA upper or complete rifle. I would purchase a BCM upper and source a decent lower. If you want a range and training rifle a PSA upper will be fine but have a knowledgeable armorer look it over first.
That just paid for this thread- thank you very much for this info!!
Outlander Systems
01-02-20, 12:10
I just discovered that of the two PSA uppers I have, neither one has an in-spec Picatinny rail on the top of the upper receiver.
Ymmv.
robbins290
01-02-20, 12:29
I have one of there rifle kits for a cheap ass hunting rifle. The upper seemed to be built well. It is reliable and accurate. Can not ask much more for a hunting rifle that will only see 15 or so rounds a year on a good year. I can legit throw it on the back of the quad, on the floor of the boat or thrown in the back seat of the truck and not give a crap about what it looks like.
I ended up spraying it, as i did not like the shiney barrel.
I own 2 BCM ARs one a 20 inch rifle and a light weight carbine and 4 psa Carbines I mid length and the others 16 inch blems. all built with PSA premium parts. I would guess some have 5,000 rounds of my reloads which are max 223 data loads and a few thousand 5.56 rounds. I can't tell the difference on operation or reliability between the BCM or the PSA. I have owned ARs since the middle 1970s. The only problem I have ever had was wearing out / breaking CMMG dedicated upper I purchased used and CMMG 100% covered the repair of their upper so a great company . then on the same dedicated 22 AR which I built on a CMMG lower I bought a DPMS lower parts kit and the hammer and sear mating surfaces wore out and DPMS sent both parts and last summer they started failing again. I this time replaced the DPMS lower parts kit with a PSA parts kit which is a much much better quality lower parts kit. I wouldn't discount a PSA or not recommend a BCM because they are top quality in the AR market. Note the problem I find with ARs is no one owns just 1 Ar. Beware !!
Steve Shannon
01-02-20, 12:40
I just discovered that of the two PSA uppers I have, neither one has an in-spec Picatinny rail on the top of the upper receiver.
Ymmv.
It would be helpful if you would explain how it was out of spec. Is it too wide? Too narrow? Slots too short or too long? How did you discover the condition?
Please don’t take this as my doubting you; I’m just trying to catalog things to look for.
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I just recently purchased a PSA upper on Black Friday. This is my first PSA upper as I have perhaps a couple dozen other rifles. The only other brand I have purchased as complete uppers is BCM.
I purchased their 10.5” FN marked CHF upper. I also purchased their pistol lower build kit.
As a disclaimer, I am a former employee of a firearms manufacturing company and I have built literally thousands of AR15 and M16 rifles in the 10 years I worked for them. I have also built several PSA rifles for friends that wanted a cheap rifle.
Here is my no BS assessment of PSA.
-A good portion of their parts are pretty decent. Not top tier but good enough.
-Their lower parts have gotten way better in the past couple years. The lower I just built functions very nicely. Safety is crisp, trigger is smooth etc.
-I would shy away from most of their barrels if hard use is what you intend to do with it. The CHF stuff seems to be quite nice.
-Their action springs and buffers are hot steaming crap soaked garbage! Replace them immediately!
-Their BCGs are interesting. They are different every time. Sometimes they are nice and look like mil-spec and other times they look like cheap nitrided garbage.
— The biggest issue i have is their assembly of their complete uppers. Any time I have purchased one I have taken them apart and rebuilt them. Whoever is building them in house should be beaten over the head with a hammer! I have seen the stupidest crap with their assembled uppers! I have seen loose gas blocks, loose or over tightened muzzle devices and barrel nuts.
The last upper I purchased had a standard GI barrel nut and was tightened to about 100 ft/lbs of torque! It took a Magpul barrel wrench with a breaker bar attached and my 230 pound ass hanging on it to break it free! The front threads of the upper receiver were bent and bare metal was showing. Fortunately, I was able to reassemble the upper and everything lined up with about 45 ft/lbs of torque.
So long story short, for a first rifle that will see any type of home / personal defense use, I do not recommend a PSA upper or complete rifle. I would purchase a BCM upper and source a decent lower. If you want a range and training rifle a PSA upper will be fine but have a knowledgeable armorer look it over first.
This is exactly why I said owning a PSA will teach you more about troubleshooting and tweaking an AR than you wanna know
Outlander Systems
01-02-20, 13:21
Two different Geissele mounts with the dual-lugs for picatinny rails.
Fits snug as a bug in a rug on two different Daniel Defense uppers
Fits snug as a bug in a rug on multiple, multiple railed handguards
100% neither one will go on either PSA upper.
I'm going with the rail slots on the PSA upper aren't spaced to spec. Do they shoot? Yes. Are they both better than 2MOA with crap ammo? Sure. They were bought as beaters, so I'm not losing sleep, but just a data point/sample of two for you homies.
Another point, I can take a Vortex Huey off of any other upper I own, where it is locked down tight. Put it on the PSA uppers, and it has side-to-side wobble at the unadjusted tension setting.
Also, trying to get the in-spec G mounts on the PSAs absolutely chewed the rails up. I noticed that the DD upper receiver's Pic rail sections are a solid 3x thicker at the recessed portion of the rail than the PSA.
It would be helpful if you would explain how it was out of spec. Is it too wide? Too narrow? Slots too short or too long? How did you discover the condition?
Please don’t take this as my doubting you; I’m just trying to catalog things to look for.
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Steve Shannon
01-02-20, 13:37
Two different Geissele mounts with the dual-lugs for picatinny rails.
Fits snug as a bug in a rug on two different Daniel Defense uppers
Fits snug as a bug in a rug on multiple, multiple railed handguards
100% neither one will go on either PSA upper.
I'm going with the rail slots on the PSA upper aren't spaced to spec. Do they shoot? Yes. Are they both better than 2MOA with crap ammo? Sure. They were bought as beaters, so I'm not losing sleep, but just a data point/sample of two for you homies.
Another point, I can take a Vortex Huey off of any other upper I own, where it is locked down tight. Put it on the PSA uppers, and it has side-to-side wobble at the unadjusted tension setting.
Also, trying to get the in-spec G mounts on the PSAs absolutely chewed the rails up. I noticed that the DD upper receiver's Pic rail sections are a solid 3x thicker at the recessed portion of the rail than the PSA.
Thanks! That helps me understand.
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Certainly one of the less believable "I'm am correct but offer no photos, sample sizes or measurement, just results" claims I've seen here over the years.
Enjoy your rifle dude. I actually would like to see PSA succeed, because they get rifles into the hands of the masses, and have a Mil discount that gets my ammo down to around 27 cents per round. They also have a range/store 10 minutes from my house, and I’m a member, and go there 4-8 times a month. So like I said, I’m not here to grind an axe. In fact, I bought an axe there.
My sample size is about a dozen “Freedom” barrels. The gauge does not provide numbers for me to share.
I don’t believe the chamber gauge is very photogenic, but heres a link to my pictures of muzzle threads, which will explain why they installed the crush washer backwards: https://imgur.com/a/qsPrZvl
Again, I ask, how many have you measured? I’m not sure why you are so emotionally invested in this single point, despite all the other shortcomings in their uppers. If you measure one and it has a 5.56 chamber, are you going to overlook the improperly installed gas block?
I’m curious to know exactly what your chamber gauges showed. If it’s not 5.56, what is it?
Was it a full go/no go set, a field gauge, or what? I’m wondering what I should check for, if you don’t mind sharing.
Thanks!
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I believe 1168.
I am definitely curious as to what those chambers actually are.
And- WHY wouldnt they cut them to true 5.56 spec? Would that be more costly or what?
1168- how far off are they?
Also- gents, lets not get the thread closed please. Regardless of ones feelings about PSA rifles, there is good knowledge/info being passed on here.
It is Ned Christiansen’s (m-guns.com) 556? Gauge. Its kinda like a field headspace gauge, in that it does not provide numbers. Its shaped kinda like a cartridge and if it seats on the shoulder when you drop it in the chamber, you have a 5.56. If the guage gets held up by the cylindrical “bullet” portion of the cartridge shape, you have something else, such as .223 Rem, .223 Wylde, or Noveske 5.56 Match Mod 0. I just rechecked my barrel, and it feels close, but not quite. I don’t know how to quantify it. Might actually be closer than the Noveske I also just rechecked.
The why is what I can’t figure out. I don’t see how it would be cheaper to ream them to less than true 5.56 dimensions. And if they know its not 5.56, and I expect that they do, then why not simply mark them as .223 Wylde or whatever? Maybe whoever is cutting the chambers has worn reamers? I dunno. If anybody reading this has access to a gauge and one of their CHF barrels, I would be interested in knowing the results of a check, since those are made and priced differently.
I just discovered that of the two PSA uppers I have, neither one has an in-spec Picatinny rail on the top of the upper receiver.
Ymmv.
I’ve checked mine using MistWolf’s method and found it to be VERY slightly undersized. Not enough to be a real problem for me. A buddy’s off brand (not PSA) upper is significantly over on width, go figure. For comparison, I have several BCM, Aero, and Vltor uppers, and have not noticed any variation in those when swapping optics. Also haven’t noticed anything in the Mil FNs and Colts. Pretty unscientific testing.
CoryCop pointed out the PSA action springs are not up to task. I just changed the spring in a cop’s frankenrifle because it was having failures to achieve battery. Action spring was not the main problem, but I replaced the PSA spring with a Colt one because it measured 9 15/16”. He’s got less than 1,000 rounds on the gun. WTF.
Bottom line: I am mostly happy with the PSA upper I own, because I have the tools and capability to go through it. It works for what I use it for. I’ve even shot a few mags of M855, M855a1, and commercial 5.56 ammo through it, and it has not exploded. But its current and future diet is .223 Rem.
I have 9000 rounds through my PSA rifle, bought it as a cheap beater gun. Purchased the upper and lower separately.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-carbine-length-5-56-nato-1-7-m4-nitride-moe-upper-with-rear-mbus-bcg-ch.html
It was $279 when I bought it. This is their lower tier upper, NOT CHF. So far it's held up as follows:
- Original nitrided barrel was shot out and replaced around 5500-6000 rounds.
- Firing pin broke and replaced at 7700 rounds.
Everything else holding strong. I've shot almost exclusively steel cased wolf and red army standard 223. Had 1 or 2 stoppages out of every case of 1000 rounds.
Take this for what it's worth.
kylebaker24
01-02-20, 15:32
Or just thinking about getting a psa upper but adding a qaulity BCG and ch handle
I own 2 BCM ARs one a 20 inch rifle and a light weight carbine and 4 psa Carbines I mid length and the others 16 inch blems. all built with PSA premium parts. I would guess some have 5,000 rounds of my reloads which are max 223 data loads and a few thousand 5.56 rounds. I can't tell the difference on operation or reliability between the BCM or the PSA. I have owned ARs since the middle 1970s. The only problem I have ever had was wearing out / breaking CMMG dedicated upper I purchased used and CMMG 100% covered the repair of their upper so a great company . then on the same dedicated 22 AR which I built on a CMMG lower I bought a DPMS lower parts kit and the hammer and sear mating surfaces wore out and DPMS sent both parts and last summer they started failing again. I this time replaced the DPMS lower parts kit with a PSA parts kit which is a much much better quality lower parts kit. I wouldn't discount a PSA or not recommend a BCM because they are top quality in the AR market. Note the problem I find with ARs is no one owns just 1 Ar. Beware !!
No offense here, but I’m not sure if you don’t understand some basics of the AR or if it’s just your writing. You state the your four PSAs are made up of one midlength and the others are 16” blems. Those two aren’t mutually exclusive and has me wondering you know what that all means.
Recent posts also reminded me that the upper I got rid of was slightly oversized. Not a huge deal, but it hung over the lower a slight bit and while I could still mount optics, they had to be adjusted from my other uppers.
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Do not let others sway you from PSA products. You just have to be aware of what you are buying. Make the best use of your funds and that means budgeting for the AR, optic (if needed/wanted), BUIS, magazines, and ammo to get you started.
Why would you have to be aware of what you’re buying if they were truly good to go?
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This is exactly why I said owning a PSA will teach you more about troubleshooting and tweaking an AR than you wanna know
This summary should be an auto-reply on all PSA threads. ;)
Put this together for a friend a few months ago. Similar budget to you. Might not be top notch items but decent on the important bits from what I have gathered.
Aero stripped upper $64
Aero upper parts kit $15.29
Spikes Tactical lower parts kit w/ grip and trigger $72
Aero stripper lower $72
Ballistic Advantage 16” Barrel w/ low pro gas block $230
Ballistic Advantage Mid length gas tube $15
Toolcraft Nickel Boron BCG $100
BCM Carbine Buffer kit $60
Magpul Stock $69 (or something cheaper)
Strike Industries charging handle $26
A2 Flash Hider $11
About $70 for whatever handguard you want.
Comes in right at $800. Most of these prices are from opticsplanet and that’s with free shipping. Probably could find cheaper elsewhere. Some coupon deals to offset some taxes would be handy too.
I'll leave this classic PSA thread here............
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?191414-PSA-20-quot-Freedom-Kit-review-pre-shooting/page13
NWcityguy2
01-02-20, 17:24
Why would you have to be aware of what you’re buying if they were truly good to go?
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Application, value, legalities. Seems obvious, but I guess it was not.
Eurodriver
01-02-20, 17:28
I just recently purchased a PSA upper on Black Friday. This is my first PSA upper as I have perhaps a couple dozen other rifles. The only other brand I have purchased as complete uppers is BCM.
I purchased their 10.5” FN marked CHF upper. I also purchased their pistol lower build kit.
As a disclaimer, I am a former employee of a firearms manufacturing company and I have built literally thousands of AR15 and M16 rifles in the 10 years I worked for them. I have also built several PSA rifles for friends that wanted a cheap rifle.
Here is my no BS assessment of PSA.
-A good portion of their parts are pretty decent. Not top tier but good enough.
-Their lower parts have gotten way better in the past couple years. The lower I just built functions very nicely. Safety is crisp, trigger is smooth etc.
-I would shy away from most of their barrels if hard use is what you intend to do with it. The CHF stuff seems to be quite nice.
-Their action springs and buffers are hot steaming crap soaked garbage! Replace them immediately!
-Their BCGs are interesting. They are different every time. Sometimes they are nice and look like mil-spec and other times they look like cheap nitrided garbage.
— The biggest issue i have is their assembly of their complete uppers. Any time I have purchased one I have taken them apart and rebuilt them. Whoever is building them in house should be beaten over the head with a hammer! I have seen the stupidest crap with their assembled uppers! I have seen loose gas blocks, loose or over tightened muzzle devices and barrel nuts.
The last upper I purchased had a standard GI barrel nut and was tightened to about 100 ft/lbs of torque! It took a Magpul barrel wrench with a breaker bar attached and my 230 pound ass hanging on it to break it free! The front threads of the upper receiver were bent and bare metal was showing. Fortunately, I was able to reassemble the upper and everything lined up with about 45 ft/lbs of torque.
So long story short, for a first rifle that will see any type of home / personal defense use, I do not recommend a PSA upper or complete rifle. I would purchase a BCM upper and source a decent lower. If you want a range and training rifle a PSA upper will be fine but have a knowledgeable armorer look it over first.
The red part is interesting. Please note, I have no dog in this fight.
However, a few months ago I was on a drive to South Carolina (of all places) and listened to a podcast on PSA. It was actually very interesting (on many levels, not just their QC), and they are aware of the problem you mention. The problem, simplified, is that the demand for their products is so high especially around the holidays, that they have to hire temps to assemble rifles/uppers during busy times. These temps are people with zero gun building experience hired off the street. This isn't internet conjecture, rumor, or "The truth about guns" page. The CEO of PSA himself admits it in the podcast. He realized this was causing issues, because the product quality was suffering. There's really only two options - hire temps to assemble uppers during busy periods or maintain the same folks year round and let wait times get astronomical during the holidays.
Why people buy a rifle from them and don't bother shelling out the extra coin for a BCM is obvious - PSA is cheaper. I can think of no other reason to go with PSA over BCM. One just needs to decide whether the savings are worth the potential headaches.
Link to podcast below:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ar-15-podcast-palmetto-state-armory/id585510701?i=1000430236787
Now, I'm gonna dip out of this thread before the "Well, PSA uses FN parts and you overpaid for your BCM" folks with zero sources on the basis of their argument get angry.
NWcityguy2
01-02-20, 17:37
Enjoy your rifle dude. I actually would like to see PSA succeed, because they get rifles into the hands of the masses, and have a Mil discount that gets my ammo down to around 27 cents per round. They also have a range/store 10 minutes from my house, and I’m a member, and go there 4-8 times a month. So like I said, I’m not here to grind an axe. In fact, I bought an axe there.
My sample size is about a dozen “Freedom” barrels. The gauge does not provide numbers for me to share.
I don’t believe the chamber gauge is very photogenic, but heres a link to my pictures of muzzle threads, which will explain why they installed the crush washer backwards: https://imgur.com/a/qsPrZvl
Again, I ask, how many have you measured? I’m not sure why you are so emotionally invested in this single point, despite all the other shortcomings in their uppers. If you measure one and it has a 5.56 chamber, are you going to overlook the improperly installed gas block?
It is Ned Christiansen’s (m-guns.com) 556? Gauge. Its kinda like a field headspace gauge, in that it does not provide numbers. Its shaped kinda like a cartridge and if it seats on the shoulder when you drop it in the chamber, you have a 5.56. If the guage gets held up by the cylindrical “bullet” portion of the cartridge shape, you have something else, such as .223 Rem, .223 Wylde, or Noveske 5.56 Match Mod 0. I just rechecked my barrel, and it feels close, but not quite. I don’t know how to quantify it. Might actually be closer than the Noveske I also just rechecked.
I've never measured the headspace of an AR chamber, nor have I used some non-standard tool that doesn't even explain what measurement it is taking while being used. And I'm not sure why you are so emotionally invested.
Application, value, legalities. Seems obvious, but I guess it was not.
Did it not seem obvious that it wasn’t your post I quoted?
I've never measured the headspace of an AR chamber, nor have I used some non-standard tool that doesn't even explain what measurement it is taking while being used. And I'm not sure why you are so emotionally invested.
Ned isn’t exactly a rando garage armorer.
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I've never measured the headspace of an AR chamber, nor have I used some non-standard tool that doesn't even explain what measurement it is taking while being used. And I'm not sure why you are so emotionally invested.
If you are not familiar with checking headspace in a rifle, then you are completely unqualified to even begin to have a discussion on the topic of chamber dimensions. Enjoy your rifle. Shoot it until the barrel (and bolt) are roached, and then learn about the process for determining that and rectifying it. Have a nice day.
Enjoy your rifle dude. I actually would like to see PSA succeed, because they get rifles into the hands of the masses, and have a Mil discount that gets my ammo down to around 27 cents per round. They also have a range/store 10 minutes from my house, and I’m a member, and go there 4-8 times a month. So like I said, I’m not here to grind an axe. In fact, I bought an axe there.
My sample size is about a dozen “Freedom” barrels. The gauge does not provide numbers for me to share.
I don’t believe the chamber gauge is very photogenic, but heres a link to my pictures of muzzle threads, which will explain why they installed the crush washer backwards: https://imgur.com/a/qsPrZvl
Again, I ask, how many have you measured? I’m not sure why you are so emotionally invested in this single point, despite all the other shortcomings in their uppers. If you measure one and it has a 5.56 chamber, are you going to overlook the improperly installed gas block?
It is Ned Christiansen’s (m-guns.com) 556? Gauge. Its kinda like a field headspace gauge, in that it does not provide numbers. Its shaped kinda like a cartridge and if it seats on the shoulder when you drop it in the chamber, you have a 5.56. If the guage gets held up by the cylindrical “bullet” portion of the cartridge shape, you have something else, such as .223 Rem, .223 Wylde, or Noveske 5.56 Match Mod 0. I just rechecked my barrel, and it feels close, but not quite. I don’t know how to quantify it. Might actually be closer than the Noveske I also just rechecked.
The why is what I can’t figure out. I don’t see how it would be cheaper to ream them to less than true 5.56 dimensions. And if they know its not 5.56, and I expect that they do, then why not simply mark them as .223 Wylde or whatever? Maybe whoever is cutting the chambers has worn reamers? I dunno. If anybody reading this has access to a gauge and one of their CHF barrels, I would be interested in knowing the results of a check, since those are made and priced differently.
I’ve checked mine using MistWolf’s method and found it to be VERY slightly undersized. Not enough to be a real problem for me. A buddy’s off brand (not PSA) upper is significantly over on width, go figure. For comparison, I have several BCM, Aero, and Vltor uppers, and have not noticed any variation in those when swapping optics. Also haven’t noticed anything in the Mil FNs and Colts. Pretty unscientific testing.
CoryCop pointed out the PSA action springs are not up to task. I just changed the spring in a cop’s frankenrifle because it was having failures to achieve battery. Action spring was not the main problem, but I replaced the PSA spring with a Colt one because it measured 9 15/16”. He’s got less than 1,000 rounds on the gun. WTF.
Bottom line: I am mostly happy with the PSA upper I own, because I have the tools and capability to go through it. It works for what I use it for. I’ve even shot a few mags of M855, M855a1, and commercial 5.56 ammo through it, and it has not exploded. But its current and future diet is .223 Rem.
Is that mil discount only in store? I've never heard of one for PSA.
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-02-20, 19:05
Also was looking at aero uppers seem to be good qaulity
Aero is typically better than PSA but I wouldn't want one for my only go to AR.
If it is a gauge designed by Ned Christianson, then it is perfectly acceptable; period.
I would not expect anything else than PSA knowingly hiring untrained people to piece together AR's, know they have issues, and still send them out.
And then admit it on a podcast.
PSA is as good as....a Del-Ton.
Diamondback
01-02-20, 19:10
Iraqgunz, whatever armory St. Peter PCS'ed you to, we miss ya big guy. :(
Renegade04
01-02-20, 20:24
Why would you have to be aware of what you’re buying if they were truly good to go?
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Regardless of any AR you buy, a person needs to see what the specifications are so that they know what they are buying. They need not expect as much from a $200 upper assembly as they would a $400 assembly although, in some cases, there may be little difference. Again, it all depends on the quality of parts used and the assembler. Any AR, including Colts, BCM, etc., can have issues. PSA caters to the masses and not the brand-name snobs. They move a lot of uppers, lowers, complete firearms, and mega amounts of parts and accessories every year. For the most part, they have a lot of happy customers. For some who have had issues, PSA has remedied those issues as best they could. Personally, I have never had an issue with them or their parts. That is one reason why I opted to buy a new upper assembly (non-CHF) from them.
SwampYankee
01-02-20, 22:34
https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-bfh-16-mid-length-light-weight-upper-receiver-group-625fsb/
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/sionics-lower-receiver-assemblies/162-patrol-rifle-zero.html
Add a sionics or solgw bcg and magpul handgaurd. 800 or 850 bucks.
MontanaMarine
01-02-20, 23:21
I put together my 'better' carbine around the BCM 14.5" SOCOM upper. No complaints.
https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-standard-14-5-m4-socom-upper-receiver-group/
It's set up with a 5X prism with the ACSS reticle.
https://i.imgur.com/WsC9xPu.jpg
I would not expect anything else than PSA knowingly hiring untrained people to piece together AR's, know they have issues, and still send them out.
And then admit it on a podcast.
Can you give me a link? (never mind saw that Eurodriver was the one who mentioned it, and, provided a link.)
Why people buy a rifle from them and don't bother shelling out the extra coin for a BCM is obvious - PSA is cheaper. I can think of no other reason to go with PSA over BCM. One just needs to decide whether the savings are worth the potential headaches.
Now, I'm gonna dip out of this thread before the "Well, PSA uses FN parts and you overpaid for your BCM" folks with zero sources on the basis of their argument get angry.
Euro, I've always been of the mind that PSA has their business model, and BCM, for example, has theirs.
I buy some stuff from BCM, and buy some stuff from PSA, some from Brownells, some from ALG, etc., you get the idea. I have yet to buy a complete AR, although I do amost have a complete Colt CCU that I made from a complete Colt lower and a complete CUU upper purchased from Brownell's - it has a Toolcraft bolt and a Geissele SCH.
What has always confounded me are statements made, that when you ask for sources, what you get back are crickets. I've always thought that should be fairly apparent to most folks that some of the folks making those comments have a vested interest in making them because of their business relationships with competitors.
Oh well. Using car analogies, I think PSA is the Ford Escape of rifles, BCM is the Ford Explorer, and KAC is the Expedition. Most folks could get buy with the Escape, but want one of the others, it's all good.
Euro, I've always been of the mind that PSA has their business model
I believe you are right. They can do as they please. Doesn't make them an evil company.
Consumers just need to be aware of what they are buying.
NWcityguy2
01-03-20, 12:33
If you are not familiar with checking headspace in a rifle, then you are completely unqualified to even begin to have a discussion on the topic of chamber dimensions. Enjoy your rifle. Shoot it until the barrel (and bolt) are roached, and then learn about the process for determining that and rectifying it. Have a nice day.
No, I am familiar with the process and have checked headspace on rifles, just not ARs. My competition AR is on its third barrel btw. But hey, you used a tool that no manufacturer uses, and doesn't specify the minimum measurement if it fully seats (like a headspace gauge for example). So who am I to argue with that?
Why would you have to be aware of what you’re buying if they were truly good to go?
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PSA typically lists materials and processes used in their products.
Safer to just go for the Colt logo so a person isn't left wondering what they have bought.
https://youtu.be/k__auPMEGzI
I pretty much own every quality brand AR you can buy: BCM, HK, FN, Colt, LMT, Sionics, Noveske, KAC, etc. My go to rifles are usually my Colts, BCM, or LMT. Over the years I have heard mixed review concerning PSA such as canted front sights, out of spec uppers, and over gassed barrels. However, last month I bought a PSA 10.5” premuim upper with FN CHF, BCG, and charging handle for $329 USD. I added KAC RAS from Thoroughbred Armament for $189. So the complete upper was a little bit over $500 USD. The upper seemed well built, FSB not canted, and upper within spec, BCG chrome lined, but I did restake the gas key bolts with a MOAKS tool because the staking was not all that great. I put it on a Stag SBR lower, and I am going to shoot and abuse the upper to see how it holds up compared to the BCM upper it is replacing.
but I did restake the gas key bolts with a MOAKS tool because the staking was not all that great.
I am find it worth pointing out the designer of the MOACKS tool, since he was lightly disparaged earlier in the thread.
I am find it worth pointing out the designer of the MOACKS tool, since he was lightly disparaged earlier in the thread.
I bought the MOACKS tool many years ago, and it has been great to stake gas bolt keys. Many years ago I bought a LMT FA BCG (when they were $129) that had not been staked at all, and in a matter of minutes, it was properly staked. Never had one problem with that BCG and still runs strong
It’s a tool I have considered, but so far have not needed.
Psa is TYPICALLY ok if assembled correctly IME. If you know what to look for you can spot problems and fix them (costs time/money).
Between me and some friends, bcm, colt, DD, and centurion have all been good.
PSA and stag showed issues, both early on and after a couple thousand flawless rounds.
Spend a little more and buy quality if its not a range toy-only. “Paying for the name” is a myth. “Upgrading” a lesser piece costs more in the long run.
If you want to build: buy quality parts and tools and piece it together. If you dont have all the tools, it wont be cheaper to build. Nothing is when you factor in time. Putting a lower on an upper is not a build.
And definitely dont build your first. Thats just stupid. Building will be so much easier once you learn a proper gun- actually inspect it and know how everything works, why, where, and when.
MistoGators
01-03-20, 21:26
Their QC is way too inconsistent. I have a PSA complete pistol that's been a fine range toy (my "primary" is a Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint PRO). But I also ordered a middy upper years ago though and it came with a carbine length gas tube. They also got busted for using rejected parts from FN.
The purpose would probably be a home defense gun/fun gun, for some range shooting. And for my budget I would like to keep it under 800 or 700 bucks, but I plan to build it little by little starting with the lower then just buying a complete upper
Here you go. Under $800 and checks all the boxes on the chart like BCM.
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/855319005099
Or get a BCM upper on an Aero lower. Goes over budget though.
Aero Precision middy rifle with Magpul rear site is usually around $750 too. Not as good as BCM and Spikes but I'd still trust them over PSA.
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/aero-ac15-mid-length-complete-rifle
I will say though that I'm happy for PSA's success in selling to the masses because the more AR owners there are in this country, the better.
NWcityguy2
01-03-20, 22:30
PSA typically lists materials and processes used in their products.
Safer to just go for the Colt logo so a person isn't left wondering what they have bought.
But my understanding is, after the expanse line was scrapped, that no part went to waste.
ViniVidivici
01-04-20, 00:04
We have one PSA complete upper. Bare bones 16" muddy. Only a scant 300 rounds through. Has never malfunctioned.
I'm happy with the accuracy, with good ammo it'll shoot into 2" at 100yds, and 4" at 200, so far.
Yes, grease had been applied to the upper receiver threads, and barrel nut was tight, as was FH.
Staking of the BC key was light. Fixed that, easy.
Only real gripe was, the FSB was canted. We were still able to zero, but the rear sight had to go over a ridiculous amount. Shot fine, was just annoying.
Solved that in the most fun way, shaved down the FSB, painted everything and put a VTAC rail on. It's a sweet little gun now, and it feels lighter and better balance.
It is not overgassed, and with an H2 buffer it's very soft shooting, locks back with everything.
Time will tell, of course, but all signs point to this being a great gun. If something breaks, I'll fix it. No big deal.
Got another PSA BCG and LPK (sans FCG) in another gun, over 1,200 rounds through that one, no malfunctions, no problems with it. I did stake that one better as well.
I would buy their stuff again, but only because I know what to look for, and know how to fix it if it ain't right.
I think lower tier places like PSA put out more lemons than some places, so it's a gamble at times. But as this thread attests, some of their stuff works fine.
Since it was brought up, I've had great results with all Aero parts I've used (stripped lowers, buffers, gas blocks, stripped upper, action spring, etc.) I would say they are a step above PSA.
One of the best things about PSA is what they've done to make the platform a common use item. They've intentionally flooded the market with AR's by selling a decent product at prices a lot of people will pay. From what I understand they've also invested in improving their manufacturing, assembly, and QC as they continue to grow.
Comparitively, I would hope you heard of fewer problems with Aero rifles, since they made 1,490 rifles in 2017, compared to 28,562 for PSA.
Here is a comparison of numbers from 2017 ATF reports:
PSA: rifles manufactured: 28,562 misc. firearms manufactured: 128,529 pistols manufactured: 1,410
Aero: rifles manufactured: 1,490 misc. firearms manufactured: 78,033 pistols manufactured: 2
BCM: rifles manufactured: 6,467 misc. firearms manufactured: none reported pistols manufactured: 593
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics
Looking at the numbers PSA is more of a 'people's rifle' than other brands. You might also think that based on quantities ordered they are able to buy parts comparable in quality to other manufacturers at better prices.
26Inf is correct...it’s numbers like these that are the reason we don’t use anecdotal evidence as a quality measure. The DPMO between these brands would be a better measure, and/or any non-conformance reports and the outcome of those NCR’s (Disposition).
But I’d be shocked if that was ever available to anyone outside the respective companies.
One of the best things about PSA is what they've done to make the platform a common use item. They've intentionally flooded the market with AR's by selling a decent product at prices a lot of people will pay. From what I understand they've also invested in improving their manufacturing, assembly, and QC as they continue to grow.
Yes, and good on them for it. Although I have never bought an upper or complete rifle I have done lots of other business with them. PSA has always done me right and they seem to be an honest company.
Renegade04
01-04-20, 14:35
As some here know, I have a wide array of good quality ARs. I usually put my money on stuff I know will work. That said, here is what I just built with a PSA upper (first complete PSA upper I have bought). For months and months, I have had a McKay Enterprises lower that I built up sitting on my shelf trying to figure out what to do with it. Since it was in a basic configuration, my first thought was to do a simple M4 type build. As time went one, I deliberated about changing it up and doing a more of an upgraded build. After Christmas, I made a decision to just do a simple and inexpensive M4 type build and bought an Aero Precision phosphate M16 BCG and ordered a PSA 16" Carbine Length 5.56 NATO 1:7 M4 Nitride Freedom Upper (No BCG or CH). I also ordered a Primary Arms Micro SLx and absolute co-witness mount. I did utilize a charging handle and MAGPUL MBUS sight I already had laying around. Here is the finished product. I need to get it to the range next week to see how well it performs. I have no doubt that it will perform well.
https://i.imgur.com/AMoAzVZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kURlcnP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AMoAzVZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kURlcnP.jpg
I like that. Despite my insistence on PSA not being a good “first/only” carbine choice, I do like what they are doing in many ways. Only reason I sold my PSA 16” Premium mid with FSB was to consolidate a bit. It was cool as something to hand a friend going to the range.
everready73
01-04-20, 19:26
Their QC is way too inconsistent. I have a PSA complete pistol that's been a fine range toy (my "primary" is a Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint PRO). But I also ordered a middy upper years ago though and it came with a carbine length gas tube. They also got busted for using rejected parts from FN.
Here you go. Under $800 and checks all the boxes on the chart like BCM.
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/855319005099
Or get a BCM upper on an Aero lower. Goes over budget though.
Aero Precision middy rifle with Magpul rear site is usually around $750 too. Not as good as BCM and Spikes but I'd still trust them over PSA.
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/aero-ac15-mid-length-complete-rifle
I will say though that I'm happy for PSA's success in selling to the masses because the more AR owners there are in this country, the better.
Please show proof where they were using fn rejects. I am not a big PSA fan but do Sprite they make the platform available to almost anyone. The owners brother (I believe part owner) is the industry rep on TOS and said this is not true.
Do I believe the FN barrels are made to the same QA/QC as a Centurion arms fn barrel.... No, but I don't believe they are rejects
I guess that they do runs for PSA with less QA/QC, run the equipment faster, and change out tooling less. As you can see from the manufacturing numbers above PSA produces a lot of guns and uppers. They are probably buying in really high volumes to get lower pricing. That is how the pricing is lower, not rejects
You’ll get the “I’ve priced at the best deal FN/given barrel maker will make at the highest volume, they can’t be getting these as firsts” line. People have thrown out the rejects allegation for a long time, but no one has been willing, to my knowledge, to actually provide any evidence whatsoever beyond pricing.
MistoGators
01-04-20, 20:02
Please show proof where they were using fn rejects. I am not a big PSA fan but do Sprite they make the platform available to almost anyone. The owners brother (I believe part owner) is the industry rep on TOS and said this is not true.
Do I believe the FN barrels are made to the same QA/QC as a Centurion arms fn barrel.... No, but I don't believe they are rejects
I guess that they do runs for PSA with less QA/QC, run the equipment faster, and change out tooling less. As you can see from the manufacturing numbers above PSA produces a lot of guns and uppers. They are probably buying in really high volumes to get lower pricing. That is how the pricing is lower, not rejects
Oh, someone on TOS denied it? Well I guess it's not true then. :lol:
And the winner is... AR's for the masses. My first SBR upper is a BCM 12.5 but most of the time now I'm flogging a PSA 10.5 with my FM1 can on it. Reason I shoot the S### out of it. When I finished the can I wasn't a great can. It really sucked on 16 in barreled upper then I stuck it on the PSA it started showing better results, plus it's a heavy long pig. Now I shoot it like it's made for a MG to the point of burning off finish. When it starts to keyhole or baffle strikes I'll replace the barrel. So far way north of 2 k in ammo.
For my out the door rifle I'd grab it with BCM 12.5 and SiCo can or BCM light weight mid n SiCo can or 6920 n can Due to weight.
For a lot of people I know on a tight budget I've got them to start with a PSA and stripped lower, most have moved to second and third rifles. Some that's all they "want" or need, they might shoot 60 rnds a year.😣
One he's fully addicted to AR's now, and his daughter is and wants suppressor (s) for the win of a pro gun person who's is now a medical professional. It started with a PSA upper.
everready73
01-05-20, 12:02
Oh, someone on TOS denied it? Well I guess it's not true then. :lol:
It was one of the owners of PSA on TOS that said it waynt true, not a random. He is pretty transparent about things. Like I said, I am not running PSA for a main gun, but if people are going to throw out allegations like that they should be able to back them up
I am willing to bet what I posted is true regarding the FN barrels they use.. prove me wrong
MistoGators
01-05-20, 12:43
It was one of the owners of PSA on TOS that said it waynt true, not a random. He is pretty transparent about things. Like I said, I am not running PSA for a main gun, but if people are going to throw out allegations like that they should be able to back them up
I am willing to bet what I posted is true regarding the FN barrels they use.. prove me wrong
Prove us wrong.
I’ve seen the “seconds” thing around the internet. I’ve not seen any evidence either way. I don’t think it makes any sense, really. They sell a lot of barrels, uppers, and rifles. They can’t all be rejects. I think it makes more sense that FN is making them to PSA’s specs and standards.
But, just conjecture on my part.
I’ve seen the “seconds” thing around the internet. I’ve not seen any evidence either way. I don’t think it makes any sense, really. They sell a lot of barrels, uppers, and rifles. They can’t all be rejects. I think it makes more sense that FN is making them to PSA’s specs and standards.
But, just conjecture on my part.
I know a company that has FN do their barrels to a certain spec, it is not a spec used by anyone else I'm aware of. They had a batch of barrels arrive which they had to reject and send back. PSA later resold those barrels with the original company name only partially abrasive blasted off.
The owner of the company is a friend, I trust him 100%, and I was sent one of the pics of the resold barrel with markings.
That doesn't mean everything from PSA is a second, not by any stretch. However, it makes me laugh at the people who say all the barrels coming out of a place are the same. Especially as I know two companies that have had FN make their barrels to different spec than others.
For the PSA fanatics, I can understand the desire to wish everything was the same quality and price be damned, but it doesn't work that way in real life. Nor does it change there appears to be more complaints regarding the quality of items PSA sells than most other companies put together.
I know a company that has FN do their barrels to a certain spec, it is not a spec used by anyone else I'm aware of. They had a batch of barrels arrive which they had to reject and send back. PSA later resold those barrels with the original company name only partially abrasive blasted off.
The owner of the company is a friend, I trust him 100%, and I was sent one of the pics of the resold barrel with markings.
That doesn't mean everything from PSA is a second, not by any stretch. However, it makes me laugh at the people who say all the barrels coming out of a place are the same. Especially as I know two companies that have had FN make their barrels to different spec than others.
For the PSA fanatics, I can understand the desire to wish everything was the same quality and price be damned, but it doesn't work that way in real life. Nor does it change there appears to be more complaints regarding the quality of items PSA sells than most other companies put together.
John 8:32
fanatic-
1. disapproving : a person exhibiting excessive enthusiasm and intense uncritical devotion toward some controversial matter (as in religion or politics)
2. a person who is extremely enthusiastic about and devoted to some interest or activity
3. marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion
A lot of people are like this because their lower tier rifle meets or exceeds their their lower tier knowledge and capability behind the gun. It will in fact do all they are capable of doing with it-sling lead, and they think thats all there is to it.
A lot of people are like this because their lower tier rifle meets or exceeds their their lower tier knowledge and capability behind the gun. It will in fact do all they are capable of doing with it-sling lead, and they think thats all there is to it.
I agree. And how many of these people are buying a $500 PSA thinking they are getting a KAC equivalent rifle? My guess is none or very few. Is PSA advertising their $500 rifles as KAC equivalents? Not that I have seen. PSA is the SKS of the AR world- putting a large quantity of arms into the hands of lots of citizens. Which is good for the freedom of the masses.
Its a mistake to lump all PSA owners into a category of duche-bags or all KAC owners into a category of operators. For many buying and building is as much about learning a working knowledge of not just shooting but also a working knowledge of what goes into quality guns, identifying who the quality manufactures, brands are and who has quality QC and assembly processes, who to source quality components from, establishing trusted sources of information, learning how to verify your information, learning what sets top tier components apart from lower tier stuff, learning to separate whats proven from the latest marketing hotness, and also just hands on learning from your own experience.
My interest in the platform has evolved over time and with an open mind I've been eager to learn all I can. I've bought new complete top tier rifles, as well as Colt, AP, DD, BCM, SLGW, Sionics, and one PSA Kit. I've built more rifles than I've bought complete and learned a lot more in doing so. I have no where near the expertise that some here have but I have learned a lot and enjoyed the process. One of the biggest impediments has been all the industry secrets and being and outsider, but if you hang around long enough eventually critical information gets fleshed out.
I agree. And how many of these people are buying a $500 PSA thinking they are getting a KAC equivalent rifle? My guess is none or very few. Is PSA advertising their $500 rifles as KAC equivalents? Not that I have seen. PSA is the SKS of the AR world- putting a large quantity of arms into the hands of lots of citizens. Which is good for the freedom of the masses.
I’d guess the opposite, that most people think they’re just as good as.
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60227
PSA AR Lift Command
Renegade04
01-05-20, 18:41
I’d guess the opposite, that most people think they’re just as good as.
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I would doubt that. I am sure that many people are aware that spending $500 for an AR is not going to net the same quality and performance as one that cost considerably more, but they are satisfied to have what they have as it is better than not having one. Not everyone has the budget or desire to spend more to buy a more expensive AR and those are the types of people that are the likes to which PSA, Del-Ton, Bushmaster, DPMS, and a few others cater. Many have bought ARs of this type and have had them perform pretty well, some not. That is the gamble when one buys a cheaper priced AR. Some realize this, some do not and they find out later on when it may have been too late. Many PSA ARs give individuals a decent bang for the money and some of their ARs give them a lot of bang for the money. It all depends on what they buy and for how much.
robbins290
01-05-20, 18:56
I hate to say it. I know a few people who thinks psa is “just as good” as the top tier brands. I tried to explain the difference and they just would not accept it. I own 2 psa rifles. They function fine soo far. And i pound the snot out of them. Nothing broke of them so far. Each have a few thousand rounds thru them. But i would not trust my life to one. The fact that people would scares the crap out of me.
me2hootyhoo
01-05-20, 19:26
I have bought a few PSA parts over the years before I learned the reasons other companies charge more. The premium bcg had a chrome lining smooth as a gravel road, functioned fine. One of their D&H mags showed up smooshed, they replaced it no hassle.
Still have a premium upper with FN marked chrome lined middy barrel back when they could be had for under $300. Barrel nut was hand tight and front sight clearly canted. PSA fixed it in short time. I beat the snot out of that one. Steady diet of crap ammo. Not so much as a hiccup. It is by no means over gassed or anything. Running it with a sprinco blue and H2 buffer. Runs just as smooth as my more premium guns with the same parts. PSA is a good company that has come a long way in short time. Good folks there.
All said though, when I hear a bump in the night, the PSA is not my go to. It is a beater for cheaper training is all. I trust it, with the FN barrel and good components around it. But when it really matters I want a gun that has been thoroughly checked by the manufacturer with proper tools and training, not me. I grab a BCM, Centurion or Sionics depending on the situation.
I hate to say it. I know a few people who thinks psa is “just as good” as the top tier brands. I tried to explain the difference and they just would not accept it. I own 2 psa rifles. They function fine soo far. And i pound the snot out of them. Nothing broke of them so far. Each have a few thousand rounds thru them. But i would not trust my life to one. The fact that people would scares the crap out of me.
Why? After 'pounding the snot out of them for a 'few thousand' rounds? Because the cool kids don't?
Use the analogy I posit to explain to your friends: 'Compare PSA to the Ford Escape, it will get you there reliably, but some folks like the amenities of the Explorer or Expedition.'
robbins290
01-05-20, 20:14
Why? Because the bolt is not mpi stamped and unknown steel, questionable gas rings, questionable springs and questionable firing pin. There comes a peace of mind when i grab something of “better quality”. I see psa as range use only as they come stock.
Gatorgrizz27
01-05-20, 20:26
I’d agree with most of what’s been posted here. If you buy their higher end parts, check everything, and run 1000 rounds through it without issues, I’d consider it good to go. Would I pull one out of the box and jump on a plane for a 6 month tour of Iraq? Hell no.
I’ve got an FN marked 14.5” CHF mid length gas upper with a pinned FSB. Those are installed at the factory by FN according to the video they (FN) produced, and it seems widely accepted that their premium BCG’s are Toolcrafts. I’ve had zero issues with it in over a case of ammo, save for two American Eagle XM193 rounds that wouldn’t fire. The first one I tossed, the second one wouldn’t fire in a buddy’s DDM4, so I’m comfortable considering both of those bad primers.
FWIW, my rifle has never jammed, his has a couple times. Does that mean PSA rifles are better than Daniel Defense? Of course not, but it does mean my particular rifle is as reliable as his, so far. It’s a 1.5-2 MOA gun and somewhat overgassed, but that seems to be the same for the CHF BCM’s an DD’s also. A Springco blue and H2 buffer gave me a good ejection pattern and smoothed out the recoil impulse.
I also have an 8.5” .300 Blackout upper from them that had looser gas block set screws than I liked, and the barrel wasn’t dimpled. I dimpled it, tightened and staked them, I haven’t found anything else wrong with it. I put a premium BCG in it, and both of them have BCM charging handles as the PSA one felt like it could bend on an air soft rifle.
PSA also makes a lot of questionable products, so you have to watch what you’re buying and not assume anything is the better stuff. The post above is an example, my bolts are stamped MPI.
It’s absurd to say they only buy seconds, do you think FN has a high enough reject percentage to keep up with the amount of uppers they sell? More than likely, the QC standards are relaxed though. One company might want every single barrel checked and within 0.002” of spec. PSA might say 0.004” is good enough, or they trust that they are buying good stuff and only need every 10th barrel measured. This would allow more “problems” to slip through, but it doesn’t mean they are all sub par quality.
I’m happy with both of them, but if I did it over again I’d probably go with BCM, just for peace of mind. My $0.02 is if you buy one of the PSA uppers or rifles that comes with quality parts, you’ve got a pile of quality parts. It may or may not be assembled correctly. If you buy one that comes with junk parts, you’ve got a pile of junk parts. Go through and check stuff, they aren’t race engines.
The fact of the matter is, if your rifle has fired 1-2k rounds without a hiccup, the likelihood that it will in the 10 rounds or so you may fire in a home defense or active shooter scenario is exceedingly slim. Most of us aren’t going into combat with our personal AR’s, even the LE guys.
I am with most everyone here: I am going to shoot the snot out of the one I bought on the range, and if it breaks, it breaks. Send it back and hopefully PSA addresses the issue. With a KAC RAS it was $500 USD. If I have to grab something in the middle of the night, it will be a LMT or Colt in the same configuration.
I hate to say it. I know a few people who thinks psa is “just as good” as the top tier brands. I tried to explain the difference and they just would not accept it. I own 2 psa rifles. They function fine soo far. And i pound the snot out of them. Nothing broke of them so far. Each have a few thousand rounds thru them. But i would not trust my life to one. The fact that people would scares the crap out of me.
How many malfunctions?
Its a mistake to lump all PSA owners into a category of duche-bags or all KAC owners into a category of operators.
I absolutely, and 100% agree. I know there are plenty of good people using PSA, and no doubt plenty of douches using KAC. There is a large portion of marketing that falls into play due to lack of knowledge. In the end, I wish we could all afford to stack our closets and safes with high end AR15s and primo Ammo. We can’t, and we don’t, but I wish we could.
robbins290
01-06-20, 05:10
How many malfunctions?
So far, none. Even with steel cased tula.
OP, If you haven’t bought anything yet,
https://clydearmory.com/colt-le6920-oem1.html
If you buy a colt oem, pm me a shipping address and I’ll send you a set of colt hand guards and a trigger guard. No sense buying a rifle of questionable quality.
OP, If you haven’t bought anything yet,
https://clydearmory.com/colt-le6920-oem1.html
If you buy a colt oem, pm me a shipping address and I’ll send you a set of colt hand guards and a trigger guard. No sense buying a rifle of questionable quality.
I think OP is long gone.
This thread has followed the usual formula:
1) Asks about a product, in this case a PSA upper, for a 'build' and states his budget:
Hey everyone I'm new to the Ar world, but was looking into building one of my own. Was wondering the qaulity of the Palmetto State armory complete uppers.
The purpose would probably be a home defense gun/fun gun, for some range shooting. And for my budget I would like to keep it under 800 or 700 bucks, but I plan to build it little by little starting with the lower then just buying a complete upper
2) Almost immediately someone knocks the product, in this case PSA, often calling the persons who offer positive reviews SINO's (shooter's in name only):
I've got a few PSA uppers in 5.56 and 7.62x39. They all run just fine.,,,,,,,If you are looking for a serviceable, budget-friendly upper, buy PSA with confidence.
Whole lot of nope here. Basic features, sure, they’re similar because they’re all basic.,,,,,,,,,PSAs are good if you truly can’t afford better, without saving for many more months. But that’s only their really cheap stuff and it should have the expectation of failure. Their CHF line is supposed to be better, but typically are so close in price to the actual good companies that it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
3) Then we start ratcheting up the price with options that often don't fit the OP's budget or stated purpose, in this case by page two of the odyssey.
4) The thread continues with advocates on both sides arguing the same points, with the OP having checked out of the thread, which in actuality was his to own, four days prior.
5) Another typical thread.
Mods, I'm thinking we are done here. Can I get an 'Amen?'
NWcityguy2
01-06-20, 13:08
You're forgetting the part where the OP is warned about the very serious nature of those who post here, and how because of that they wouldn't trust brand X for their very serious needs.
You're forgetting the part where the OP is warned about the very serious nature of those who post here, and how because of that they wouldn't trust brand X for their very serious needs.
Oh, yeah, that's my bad.
Plenty of guys have died with malfunctioned PSA's/Aero's/Rock River/Windham/Bushmaster grasped in their hands during the many backyard gunfights we have each year.
Steve Shannon
01-06-20, 18:04
Oh, yeah, that's my bad.
Plenty of guys have died with malfunctioned PSA's/Aero's/Rock River/Windham/Bushmaster grasped in their hands during the many backyard gunfights we have each year.
Next you’re going to say zombies aren’t real. Crazy talk!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Oh, yeah, that's my bad.
Plenty of guys have died with malfunctioned PSA's/Aero's/Rock River/Windham/Bushmaster grasped in their hands during the many backyard gunfights we have each year.
It doesn't matter if you have thousands of rounds through the gun with zero malfunctions, you are a dead man walking if you grab it in a HD situation and there isn't an MPI stamp on the bolt.
Diamondback
01-06-20, 19:02
Next you’re going to say zombies aren’t real. Crazy talk!
What, you don't remember the Night of the Living (Brain-)Dead in November 2008 and its sequel four years later? Zombies are not only real, they VOTE! :eek:
I think OP is long gone.
This thread has followed the usual formula:
1) Asks about a product, in this case a PSA upper, for a 'build' and states his budget:
2) Almost immediately someone knocks the product, in this case PSA, often calling the persons who offer positive reviews SINO's (shooter's in name only):
3) Then we start ratcheting up the price with options that often don't fit the OP's budget or stated purpose, in this case by page two of the odyssey.
4) The thread continues with advocates on both sides arguing the same points, with the OP having checked out of the thread, which in actuality was his to own, four days prior.
5) Another typical thread.
Mods, I'm thinking we are done here. Can I get an 'Amen?'
I like how you deleted the part of my quote where I disagreed with the statement that PSA is pretty much the same thing the military has been issued for years. Did that not fit your agenda enough to be included?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I like how you deleted the part of my quote where I disagreed with the statement that PSA is pretty much the same thing the military has been issued for years. Did that not fit your agenda enough to be included?
Those ........... things mean that you haven't included all the quote/paragraph/sentence/epistle/whatever, that there is something missing which in the writer's opinion isn't germane.
Since I left out the part of the other person's statement about being the same as what the mil uses, I felt that your words regarding the issue weren't necessary.
As far as my agenda, I have none other than fairness.
Look at my posts, have I ever said PSA rifles were better than BCM? Have I ever said they were equal?
My problem is with folks who obviously have a vested interest in company A's success, hanging shit by innuendo on company B.
ETA: Here is what you wrote:
Whole lot of nope here. Basic features, sure, they’re similar because they’re all basic. But they’re far from being about the same as our issues Colts and FNs. For the most part I agree.
PSA’s consistency and QA/QC is known to be lacking at best, non-existent at worse. I haven't bough that much from them AR-wise within the last couple years. My limited experience with a couple of their uppers hasn't been problematic. I know several years ago folks were complaining abour QC and delivery times, I've never had a complaint with either.
They make tons of guns that work, but they also make a much higher percentage of flawed guns and components than the better brands out there. My Take on this:
Logic would dictate that if company A makes 10 times more widgets than company B, that if all things were equal, company A would have ten times the defective widgets reported as company B.
I’ve been super happy that mine has right around 1k rounds through it without an issue, but the staking on the original BCG was super weak and I still expect it to fail at any point. My current one can shoot a 1” group at 50m while another one that I had was sitting at 3”.
My take - since it hasn't failed within 1,000 rounds, why would you expect failure is imminent?
PSAs are good if you truly can’t afford better, without saving for many more months. But that’s only their really cheap stuff and it should have the expectation of failure.
Their CHF line is supposed to be better, but typically are so close in price to the actual good companies that it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
Edited to eliminate the need for me to wear a necktie. :)
NWcityguy2
01-07-20, 12:13
This feels like a good time to point out that discussion of better/best/as good as/good to go is pointless without an application.
It is my personal opinion why so many people act as gatekeepers and FUDmongers in the AR world is because they bought what they think is a premium product, and then use it in a way that a budget product would its equal. Once again, application.
This also seems like a good time for me to become a viewer rather than an active participant. It just hit 50 degrees, I think I'll go shoot in a couple minutes.
Those ........... things mean that you haven't included all the quote/paragraph/sentence/epistle/whatever, that there is something missing which in the writer's opinion isn't germane.
Since I left out the part of the other person's statement about being the same as what the mil uses, I felt that your words regarding the issue weren't necessary.
As far as my agenda, I have none other than fairness.
Look at my posts, have I ever said PSA rifles were better than BCM? Have I ever said they were equal?
My problem is with folks who obviously have a vested interest in company A's success, hanging shit by innuendo on company B.
ETA: Here is what you wrote:
Whole lot of nope here. Basic features, sure, they’re similar because they’re all basic. But they’re far from being about the same as our issues Colts and FNs. For the most part I agree.
PSA’s consistency and QA/QC is known to be lacking at best, non-existent at worse. I haven't bough that much from them AR-wise within the last couple years. My limited experience with a couple of their uppers hasn't been problematic. I know several years ago folks were complaining abour QC and delivery times, I've never had a complaint with either.
They make tons of guns that work, but they also make a much higher percentage of flawed guns and components than the better brands out there. My Take on this:
Logic would dictate that if company A makes 10 times more widgets than company B, that if all things were equal, company A would have ten times the defective widgets reported as company B.
I’ve been super happy that mine has right around 1k rounds through it without an issue, but the staking on the original BCG was super weak and I still expect it to fail at any point. My current one can shoot a 1” group at 50m while another one that I had was sitting at 3”.
My take - since it hasn't failed within 1,000 rounds, why would you expect failure is imminent?
PSAs are good if you truly can’t afford better, without saving for many more months. But that’s only their really cheap stuff and it should have the expectation of failure.
Their CHF line is supposed to be better, but typically are so close in price to the actual good companies that it doesn’t make sense to buy them.
Edited to eliminate the need for me to wear a necktie. :)
Yeah I know what they mean, but your post was about me saying the product has issues and insinuating that the only people that would like it don't shoot. My original post was only responding to MontanaMarine because I disagree with the part of his statement that you left out. If he hadn't made that claim, I would've posted my own experience and left it at that. I don't care what people buy, but to say that PSA is on the same level of my issued Colt (which I've always thought was a little over rated) is false. As was said (maybe by you?), they're fine if you know what you're getting but most people that find their way on here can probably afford a better gun, they'll just have to save longer.
If you do the math...
$439 - BCM upper
<$100 - Toolcraft nitride BCG (or $125-160 for other good options)
$55 - BCM or Radian Raptor charging handle
Why buy PSA?
You almost have enough to pick up a BCM blemished complete lower for $315.
I got a PSA complete 16" upper with CFH FM barrel for $313
PSA DLC BCG made by tool craft for $100 with free shipping
And a BCM Gun Fighter Charging Handle for $52
Why buy BCM?
I own and very much like my BCM, but PSA make equally good product with their upper end items.
I own and very much like my BCM, but PSA make equally good product with their upper end items.
No. The reasons why have been listed ad nauseam.
someone say psa hasn't had qc issues for years??? lol
there are literally threads every week on arfcom of people having psa qc issues. I understand they are cheap but it's salad days so need to buy down, you should be buying up in this market. Buy Aero and don't look back, why risk it with psa?????
Oh, yeah, that's my bad.
Plenty of guys have died with malfunctioned PSA's/Aero's/Rock River/Windham/Bushmaster grasped in their hands during the many backyard gunfights we have each year.
best line I've seen in years. tip my hat to you sir
Another aspect of "issues" has to do with folks that are totally inexperienced that improperly assemble a M4 and then when they have issues they go to the forums and start bashing the brand when in fact the "real issue" was their own mistakes in assembling it improperly.
Another aspect of "issues" has to do with folks that are totally inexperienced that improperly assemble a M4 and then when they have issues they go to the forums and start bashing the brand when in fact the "real issue" was their own mistakes in assembling it improperly.
absolutely but who are we kidding, the plethora of posts on various gun forums and from personal experience, it's not newbies learning...lol
No. The reasons why have been listed ad nauseam.
Well the BCM barrel is no better than the PSA premium CHF made by FN. The PSA BCG is toolcraft with DLC coating and BCM is no better. I am using a BCM charging handle which is a mute point. Are you thinking that the actual upper receiver is much superior? I was referring to upper and upper parts. Please comment.
Speaking of uppers, why does PSA not sell a stripper upper?
robbins290
01-08-20, 19:01
They do. Just never in stock it seems.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/complete-upper-receiver-7102.html
I have a few PSA Chf uppers. Every one of them have had assembly issues. One of them did not have the gas tube roll pin installed. Took 150 to 200 rounds to rear its ugly head. I will continue to buy PSA, however I know to look at everything to make sure its OK.
I have a few PSA Chf uppers. Every one of them have had assembly issues. One of them did not have the gas tube roll pin installed. Took 150 to 200 rounds to rear its ugly head. I will continue to buy PSA, however I know to look at everything to make sure its OK.
So every PSA upper you’ve bought has had issues, BUT you’ll continue to buy them. Why?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well the BCM barrel is no better than the PSA premium CHF made by FN. The PSA BCG is toolcraft with DLC coating and BCM is no better. I am using a BCM charging handle which is a mute point. Are you thinking that the actual upper receiver is much superior? I was referring to upper and upper parts. Please comment.
Making such claims without having both companies specs or at least doing statistically relevant testing, or even a study... is speculation at best.
There is a lot of overlap, and a lot of guns will be of similar quality, but specs, tolerances, and qa/qc could all be different, unless you have proof that they are the same.
And thats not even getting into assembly issues such as Peadog mentions.
PSA has a few different tiers that are priced accordingly. I've had thei CHF FN barreld uppers and have a stainless 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel doesn't seem like it's gpoing to end up being as accurate as I'd hoped. The FN barreled upper would shoot clovers with American Eagle 55gr. All have functioned without issue, though.
hotrodder636
01-15-20, 22:06
I am amazed to read these threads. It is the same as the car analogy (why get a Porsche to get you to/from work when a Kia will do the same) or the tool analogy (why get Snap-On or Matco when you can get Harbor Freight/Northern Tool).
Most of the gun owners I know outside of here have never even heard of KAC, LMT, BCM, let alone know why they command a price premium. Most of them are lucky to shoot more than 200 rounds a year. Heck I work with a guy who was literally proud that he got a barrel off of E-Bay for $20. Some people just don’t want to spend big bucks on something they won’t use much and no matter what valid reasons you give them to “upgrade” it is not worth it to them. I will continue shooting my KAC, LMT, Colt, Aero (home builds), and my one DPMS (only upper and lower receiver...new LPK, RE, buffer, barrel, etc) with confidence.
Very well noted. I agree with your statements 100%.
I would say that a lot of members even on specialized forums also fall in two latter categories.
Most of the gun owners I know outside of here have never even heard of KAC, LMT, BCM, let alone know why they command a price premium.
Most of them are lucky to shoot more than 200 rounds a year.
Some people just don’t want to spend big bucks on something they won’t use much and no matter what valid reasons you give them to “upgrade” it is not worth it to them.
I have many rifles built on PSA CHF uppers. I haven't had an issue with any of them, nor with their Toolcraft Milspec bolts. They perform on par with any other "milspec" upper that I have used and for the money are probably the best value in an AR pattern upper in my opinion.
Anything can be good or bad, but if you don't have a way to check it... you will never know.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49318191952_b2a38ec49e_o.jpg
Anything can be good or bad, but if you don't have a way to check it... you will never know.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49318191952_b2a38ec49e_o.jpg
I'll bet that one fed really well! :neo:
I had good luck PSA upper. It was my 3rd string rifle, but it ran fine. I only had 1000rds through it but I don’t recall any stoppages. I ended up selling during one of the panics
I am amazed to read these threads. It is the same as the car analogy (why get a Porsche to get you to/from work when a Kia will do the same) or the tool analogy (why get Snap-On or Matco when you can get Harbor Freight/Northern Tool).
Most of the gun owners I know outside of here have never even heard of KAC, LMT, BCM, let alone know why they command a price premium. Most of them are lucky to shoot more than 200 rounds a year. Heck I work with a guy who was literally proud that he got a barrel off of E-Bay for $20. Some people just don’t want to spend big bucks on something they won’t use much and no matter what valid reasons you give them to “upgrade” it is not worth it to them. I will continue shooting my KAC, LMT, Colt, Aero (home builds), and my one DPMS (only upper and lower receiver...new LPK, RE, buffer, barrel, etc) with confidence.
Absolutely a lot of guys will shoot 100 rounds their first year of ownership and maybe 300 rounds in their lifetime of ownership of that particular rifle, and if they have one or two failures during that time they will excuse it for some reason. For these people, PSA makes a lot of sense. Why spend more money for something that you won't appreciate or use or care about?
One time I was shooting with a guy whose DPMS was his 'baby'. Then he came over to warn me about a Federal XM855 that had hard primers. He was getting failures to fire, 3 out of 5 of his last rounds were bad. So I took one of them and put it in my rifle. BANG. There are people like that everywhere. cheapness is a disease and they will do any possible mental gymnastics to convince themselves what they spent money on is just as good
Example of mental gymnastics: They will tell you PSA has several levels or tiers of quality, and if you buy their top level, you actually get something good, and will even admit the bottom level stuff probably isn't good. Then in their next breath they will explain how they know matter of factly their PSA barrel was made by FN therefore it is top tier awesome because it was made by FN for PSA and there is no way that FN could make two things to different standards. Like, wait, but...didn't you just? Ah nevermind.
MontanaMarine
01-21-20, 11:56
It's true that the high-end ARs offer better finishes, tighter tolerances, and a higher level of QC.
It's also true that a basic PSA Freedom carbine will go through a 5000-round torture test, and come out the other side still making empties at the cyclic rate, and shooting 2 moa.
It's true that the high-end ARs offer better finishes, tighter tolerances, and a higher level of QC.
It's also true that a basic PSA Freedom carbine will go through a 5000-round torture test, and come out the other side still making empties at the cyclic rate, and shooting 2 moa.
I would have to err on the side of caution. I wouldn't bet money that every rifle can pass a 5,000 round torture test.
It's true that the high-end ARs offer better finishes, tighter tolerances, and a higher level of QC.
It's also true that a basic PSA Freedom carbine will go through a 5000-round torture test, and come out the other side still making empties at the cyclic rate, and shooting 2 moa.
What percentage of PSA carbines though? I don't doubt that any company can do that if they're choosing which gun to send to a YouTube reviewer. Entirely different story to be able to pick any and every random gun and that be true.
MontanaMarine
01-21-20, 18:45
I don't think Rob's sample was hand picked. The trigger was a little hitchy at the start, then it smoothed out.
It's easy to speculate, we all do it. But the test was not speculation, it was very real.
It's pretty nice that a serviceable firearm such as a PSA, is affordable for darn near everyone.
I don't think Rob's sample was hand picked. The trigger was a little hitchy at the start, then it smoothed out.
It's easy to speculate, we all do it. But the test was not speculation, it was very real.
It's pretty nice that a serviceable firearm such as a PSA, is affordable for darn near everyone.
They are serviceable when they are.
The idea that companies slap $200+ on the price tag with no benefit is false.
You can take the risk, but dont act like it doesnt exist.
I bought a couple budget rifles/uppers. One showed issues immediately, the other took a few thousand rounds to show issues. I wont do it again, but if $ is more valuable than time, that route might make sense for you. To each his own, but we have to be honest about the risk.
QC is all risk mitigation.
MontanaMarine
01-21-20, 19:34
It's true that the high-end ARs offer better finishes, tighter tolerances, and a higher level of QC.
I've got stuff from Colt, BCM, Oly Arms, DPMS, PSA, Bushmaster.
Mine all works, no matter how it may be mixed/matched.
At the same time, I need to run a few hundred rounds through any of them before I consider them reliable. That would go for any of them, especially those built to the tighter tolerances.
Straight Shooter
01-21-20, 20:05
What percentage of PSA carbines though? I don't doubt that any company can do that if they're choosing which gun to send to a YouTube reviewer. Entirely different story to be able to pick any and every random gun and that be true.
I really believe that PSA has improved quality, design & QC in the past couple years. Gonna be HARD for them to overcome the negative press from years ago.
If they made the next10,000 rifles perfectly, then one or two got out bad..it would STILL be "those damn PSA rifles SUCK"!.
Ive never advocated they are top tier or anywhere close. But, unless you just happen to have a specific rifle with an issue, which theyll fix for free...THEY ARENT JUNK.
I know a lot of of "owners" who fit the 100-300 round per life mold. Ive shot their guns, they worked. Mine, work.
My 16" middy SS Freedom carbine had I believe 1610 rounds thru it from March to Sept last year. 100% flawless, accurate, locks back a a dozen different mag types, runs dirty & runs hot. Hell I dont know what else to ask it to do, especially for what I paid for it.
Is there a "risk" involved with a less than top tier manufacturer? SURE. But, at least vet the rifle, and if issues come up, PSA will take care of it, more often than not. These rifles have a place. As truck/tractor/training/beater/back-up guns and for just blasting ammo to save wear on your go-to gun. They ARENT duty guns, or going to Iraq/AFGH. guns.
I think that some of yall might be a tad perturbed that some of the lower cost rifles are dong what some of your much higher priced guns are doing.
Straight Shooter
01-21-20, 20:06
double post
I really believe that PSA has improved quality, design & QC in the past couple years. Gonna be HARD for them to overcome the negative press from years ago.
If they made the next10,000 rifles perfectly, then one or two got out bad..it would STILL be "those damn PSA rifles SUCK"!.
Ive never advocated they are top tier or anywhere close. But, unless you just happen to have a specific rifle with an issue, which theyll fix for free...THEY ARENT JUNK.
I know a lot of of "owners" who fit the 100-300 round per life mold. Ive shot their guns, they worked. Mine, work.
My 16" middy SS Freedom carbine had I believe 1610 rounds thru it from March to Sept last year. 100% flawless, accurate, locks back a a dozen different mag types, runs dirty & runs hot. Hell I dont know what else to ask it to do, especially for what I paid for it.
Is there a "risk" involved with a less than top tier manufacturer? SURE. But, at least vet the rifle, and if issues come up, PSA will take care of it, more often than not. These rifles have a place. As truck/tractor/training/beater/back-up guns and for just blasting ammo to save wear on your go-to gun. They ARENT duty guns, or going to Iraq/AFGH. guns.
I think that some of yall might be a tad perturbed that some of the lower cost rifles are dong what some of your much higher priced guns are doing.
I 100% agree. Mine made it to over 1,100 rounds this past weekend, the last 300 of which were steel. They can make a solid rifle, and it seems that they are more often than not. But to blatantly state that they function just as gud as is jumping the gun IMO.
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I would have to err on the side of caution. I wouldn't bet money that every rifle can pass a 5,000 round torture test.
They are/were passing them with ease at Battlefield Las Vegas, although the 2.0 MOA standard wasn't measured, and after a life of full auto mag dumps, probably would not be achieved.
What percentage of PSA carbines though? I don't doubt that any company can do that if they're choosing which gun to send to a YouTube reviewer. Entirely different story to be able to pick any and every random gun and that be true.
Again, Battlefield Vegas. Do you think those were cherry picked?
IMO, this a good summation:
Is there a "risk" involved with a less than top tier manufacturer? SURE. But, at least vet the rifle, and if issues come up, PSA will take care of it, more often than not. These rifles have a place. As truck/tractor/training/beater/back-up guns and for just blasting ammo to save wear on your go-to gun. They ARENT duty guns, or going to Iraq/AFGH. guns.
I think that some of y'all might be a tad perturbed that some of the lower cost rifles are dong what some of your much higher priced guns are doing.
I certainly wouldn't tell someone to buy a complete PSA rifle if they weren't going to shoot the rifle enough to verify reliability.
Most, not all of the folks posting on here asking questions about PSA uppers (in particular) have some inkling of how these firearms work, otherwise why are they putting one together rather than buying one?
If I buy a whole rifle, it isn't going to be a PSA, or a Colt for that matter. But for the person on a budget, I think PSA is a valid option. As long as they check it's reliability with what they intend to shoot.
In any event, if they become serious shooters they will leave the less serious weapons behind.
IMO, this a good summation:
I certainly wouldn't tell someone to buy a complete PSA rifle if they weren't going to shoot the rifle enough to verify reliability.
Most, not all of the folks posting on here asking questions about PSA uppers (in particular) have some inkling of how these firearms work, otherwise why are they putting one together rather than buying one?
If I buy a whole rifle, it isn't going to be a PSA, or a Colt for that matter. But for the person on a budget, I think PSA is a valid option. As long as they check it's reliability with what they intend to shoot.
In any event, if they become serious shooters they will leave the less serious weapons behind.
What's wrong with buying a complete Colt?
Gatorgrizz27
01-21-20, 22:32
Absolutely a lot of guys will shoot 100 rounds their first year of ownership and maybe 300 rounds in their lifetime of ownership of that particular rifle, and if they have one or two failures during that time they will excuse it for some reason. For these people, PSA makes a lot of sense. Why spend more money for something that you won't appreciate or use or care about?
One time I was shooting with a guy whose DPMS was his 'baby'. Then he came over to warn me about a Federal XM855 that had hard primers. He was getting failures to fire, 3 out of 5 of his last rounds were bad. So I took one of them and put it in my rifle. BANG. There are people like that everywhere. cheapness is a disease and they will do any possible mental gymnastics to convince themselves what they spent money on is just as good
Example of mental gymnastics: They will tell you PSA has several levels or tiers of quality, and if you buy their top level, you actually get something good, and will even admit the bottom level stuff probably isn't good. Then in their next breath they will explain how they know matter of factly their PSA barrel was made by FN therefore it is top tier awesome because it was made by FN for PSA and there is no way that FN could make two things to different standards. Like, wait, but...didn't you just? Ah nevermind.
People have their own biases and will stick to them. Yeah, I tend to believe the FN stamp on my PSA barrel means it was made by them. I also think there’s a difference between cutting corners to hit a specific price point and a reputable company selling leftover inventory, possibly with reduced QC checks, at a reduced cost. Do you really think FN produces so many faulty barrels that they can keep up with PSA’s demand?
If I was reloading 9mm ammo, had a great reputation for quality, and one company that bought it from me wanted every round mic’d for OAL and checked with a chamber gauge, yeah I would price it differently than the same exact components assembled on the same exact machine being sold to someone who said they trusted my reputation or to check every 100th round.
Colt and BCM fans will excuse 2 MOA + accuracy, 7 lb gritty triggers, etc, because it’s “mil-spec”. I do think you’re paying for a more qualified, thorough assembly than you’ll get with PSA, but these things aren’t as fickle and precise as many people would have you believe.
I’ve built motorcycle race engines that turn 10k + RPM, and have two different piston sizes and 4 different main bearing sizes based on tolerances that are too small to control during machining. Certain motors had issues with seizing due to people over tightening the cam cap bolts by 2-3 ft-lbs. Torquing something within 10 ft-lbs and making sure it’s properly staked isn’t rocket science.
If you have zero interest in learning how AR’s work or being bake to assemble/maintain them, yeah I wouldn’t go with a PSA. If you’re willing to check and reassemble stuff, yes I think 19/20 will run as well as the “premium” guns.
What's wrong with buying a complete Colt?
Nothing at all. It's just that I have a safe full of AR's and have yet to buy one complete, I like to put them together.
As I've mentioned in another thread, I do have a 'completish Colt' that was two separate purchases, months apart, from Brownell's sales, it has a ToolCraft BCG and a Raptor CH. I also have a more complete LaRue, which contains all LaRue parts, which I put together from their Ultimate Upper kit and their lower receiver.
If I'm going to buy a complete rifle it will simply be something more refined.
They are/were passing them with ease at Battlefield Las Vegas, although the 2.0 MOA standard wasn't measured, and after a life of full auto mag dumps, probably would not be achieved.
No one said PSA can't make a rifle that doesn't fall apart, or at least, they shouldn't have. PSA has sent out unacceptable parts and it has been documented.
If you can't verify anything that you have, it doesn't matter if it's KAC or PSA.
No one said PSA can't make a rifle that doesn't fall apart, or at least, they shouldn't have. PSA has sent out unacceptable parts and it has been documented.
If you can't verify anything that you have, it doesn't matter if it's KAC or PSA.
I would honestly say that considering the PSA price point, it should not really come as a surprise that they sent out something that is considered unacceptable. I mean, when somebody purchases a PSA, they are buying the absolute cheapest AR on the market. you really do get what you are paying for. With that being said, in spite of their low levels of QC, they tend to put out a relatively solid product that would shoot most shooters fine, especially of they are familiar with that platform.
Would i grab my PSA over my Kac, no, of course not, but it is fun to take to the range to mess around with
No one said PSA can't make a rifle that doesn't fall apart, or at least, they shouldn't have. PSA has sent out unacceptable parts and it has been documented.
As have other companies that have a sterling reputations on this forum.
Something is always going to slip through, question is on what scale, and, do they make it right?
And again, if we are talking ten times the rifles produced, you would expect ten times the 'issues' that's just simple math and logic.
And, if by verifying you mean making sure it works, I totally agree. Although I don't think you need to do 2,000 rounds to verify it.
BTW, I don't think PSA has a retail distribution network outside the stores they have in SC. I'd be willing to bet that most on the folks associated with LGS's frequenting this site, would be stocking PSA's if PSA had a retail distribution network.
I will throw in my 2 cents on this subject again.
I have owned many psa parts. I have never bought a complete rifle. I also have owned rifles from much more reputable companies (bcm, Colt, dd, lmt)
My experience, they are not equal, but the difference is much less then what many make it out to be.
I have received out of spec parts from psa. I have received uppers where something wasn't assembled properly. It was however, always taken care of.
I do believe their premium line with FN barrels are pretty good to go and a good value, and that has been my experience. I have no idea what FNs protocol is for making barrels, but I have lots of industrial experience. Most places I have worked for make "higher grade" and "lower grade" products on the same line. They were typically always set up for higher grade for all the lines of product. But if something didn't meet the high spec for some reason, it would go to the low grade line. So basically, if you were buying a lower grade spec, 99% of the time you were getting the higher spec, but you did get the occasional lower grade.
So..... I think if one wants to buy a psa, go for it. It has a greater chance of having an issue. If it has an issue, they will most likely take care of you. I personally would go over it completely before firing it.
Another alternative is, buy a bcm blemished upper receiver, a ballistic advantage barrel on sale(might as well have them pin a gas block on while you're at it),a toolcraft bcg, and whatever CH and hanguard\rail you want. You won't spend much more, probably a better upper, and you get the joy of building it.
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Something is always going to slip through, question is on what scale, and, do they make it right?
It happens. When you pay a premium, you should also be paying for increased quality control, not just parts. That's not always the case, but I highly doubt every rifle PSA is sending out the door goes through extensive checks to ensure parts are good. If they do, they sure have let a lot of parts slip.
And again, if we are talking ten times the rifles produced, you would expect ten times the 'issues' that's just simple math and logic.
On a recent DC Machine (PSA) video, the rep stated that during the Obama era, they were producing 1,400 lowers a week and have more than doubled that recently. That increased number is why I believe we are seeing more issues. The problem is that there are many rifles out there that are never fired, sit in a safe, and only come out so the owner can show his buddies the cool black rifle he bought on sale.
And, if by verifying you mean making sure it works, I totally agree. Although I don't think you need to do 2,000 rounds to verify it.
You do not need to shoot any rounds to verify it was assembled properly or fix anything that wasn't assembled correctly.
Just some data points. I have a good buddy that is a master gunsmith. He has an amazing shop with a stocked Snap-on tool collection along with all the gunsmithing tools you can think of. Because of this I often swing by the shop to use random tools I dont have. The #1 problem guns he sees are PSA. 300 blk uppers with gas ports from 120 to 80 that either can't cycle or the recoil and gas to the face is insane. 9mm uppers with feeding issues or cycling issues (how is that possible as 9mm is blowback?). Barrel nuts not tightened down all the way. All kinds of gas and cycling problems. BCG issues. Trigger issues. All that being said if he calls them up and sends it back they always make it right (not always on the first try). BUT I think the question is do you know enough to know there is an issue in the first place?
We both have a good buddy that got a deal on on of their premium 10.5 uppers. He started to swap out parts starting with the rail. The slope between the barrel and the upper reciver was the worst I have ever seen. Later he swapped the barrel for DD barrel. Again the upper reciver was very loose. I think at this point he has replaced every PSA part on it. Did it shoot before? Yes, around 3 moa. Would you bet your life? That's your call.
ChattanoogaPhil
01-24-20, 17:20
Purchased a light weight pencil upper for the wife in 2017 for range use. Put a brake on it to calm it down a bit for her, LaRue trigger and tossed on a RMR to keep things light. She's on her third case of M193. No hiccups.
Pardon the interruption. Carry on.
It happens. When you pay a premium, you should also be paying for increased quality control, not just parts. That's not always the case, but I highly doubt every rifle PSA is sending out the door goes through extensive checks to ensure parts are good. If they do, they sure have let a lot of parts slip.
I think that SIONICS has the right idea, one armorer builds each rifle, and another QC's it. Other companies may follow this model, but SIONICS advertises that fact on their web page. Obviously, with the numbers you are talking about in the next parragraph, this would be difficult for PSA to do and maintain their price point.
On a recent DC Machine (PSA) video, the rep stated that during the Obama era, they were producing 1,400 lowers a week and have more than doubled that recently. That increased number is why I believe we are seeing more issues. The problem is that there are many rifles out there that are never fired, sit in a safe, and only come out so the owner can show his buddies the cool black rifle he bought on sale.
You do not need to shoot any rounds to verify it was assembled properly or fix anything that wasn't assembled correctly.
Thanks for your response.
Really, the only thing you posted that I have issue with is your last point. I'm pretty sure I've inspected more firearms than most on here, simply because we did armorer service/inspections/function checks on any firearm used on our range. I'm not sure I can look at a BCG and determine if it is sealed enough to function, the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. I think the completed assembly needs to be function tested by firing to ensure no issues.
This is why I can't disagree with folks who pay more for the added security of the test fire that BCM does on their bolts.
The person building the product controls the quality. The person inspecting the work assures the quality.
I had an AR( go back to them 4x's before they replaced the whole gun. The ramp on the bottom of the bolt looked like it was ground down with a bastard file. I was called all kinds of names on the other site saying I took a dremel to it. Well 3 bolts later and it was "fixed" They supposedly shot about 500 rounds through it as I told them I did not want it back if it shows any signs of wear.
Well it showed up at my house and the same chatter mark were stating to show again. Back it went again and this time they offered a new gun with an different maker of the lower and they through in their new drop in trigger.
A friend also ordered one of the same guns a month after I did. His was doing the same thing on the bolt. They just replaced the bolt and gave him a new trigger.
Both guns have been flawless since.
They changed the ramp design 2x's over this. I don't have the pics of the ramp anymore but these were the new Gen 4 bolts. But I would say they should be gen 6 as they changed them 2x as I said.
But I knew going in PSA can be problematic sometimes. As long as you are willing to work with them they will keep sending you a call tag to ship their guns back to them.
With the accuracy issues BCM has been having I would look elsewhere, like Scionics.
Nothing wrong with PSA if you get the Premium. Yeah they've done some stupid stuff and the fanboys get butthurt but their chf bbls and premium bolt carrier groups are fine. Be sure to compare prices.
Just some data points. I have a good buddy that is a master gunsmith. He has an amazing shop with a stocked Snap-on tool collection along with all the gunsmithing tools you can think of. Because of this I often swing by the shop to use random tools I dont have. The #1 problem guns he sees are PSA. 300 blk uppers with gas ports from 120 to 80 that either can't cycle or the recoil and gas to the face is insane. 9mm uppers with feeding issues or cycling issues (how is that possible as 9mm is blowback?). Barrel nuts not tightened down all the way. All kinds of gas and cycling problems. BCG issues. Trigger issues. All that being said if he calls them up and sends it back they always make it right (not always on the first try). BUT I think the question is do you know enough to know there is an issue in the first place?
We both have a good buddy that got a deal on on of their premium 10.5 uppers. He started to swap out parts starting with the rail. The slope between the barrel and the upper reciver was the worst I have ever seen. Later he swapped the barrel for DD barrel. Again the upper reciver was very loose. I think at this point he has replaced every PSA part on it. Did it shoot before? Yes, around 3 moa. Would you bet your life? That's your call.
3 moa is not great, but far from horrible. 3 moa is plenty enough accurate using ball ammo to kill at 200 yards and under.
With the accuracy issues BCM has been having I would look elsewhere, like Scionics.
Nothing wrong with PSA if you get the Premium. Yeah they've done some stupid stuff and the fanboys get butthurt but their chf bbls and premium bolt carrier groups are fine. Be sure to compare prices.
Yep, you are correct.
With the accuracy issues BCM has been having I would look elsewhere, like Scionics.
What?
MikhailBarracuda91
01-28-20, 09:14
With the accuracy issues BCM has been having I would look elsewhere, like Scionics.
Nothing wrong with PSA if you get the Premium. Yeah they've done some stupid stuff and the fanboys get butthurt but their chf bbls and premium bolt carrier groups are fine. Be sure to compare prices.My BCM bfh mid 16 has been great in all areas. Granted I run a red dot but I have no problem ringing steel 30/30 at 400 meters no matter what the weather is
And that's running bulk 55 gr 5.56
I clean it about every 1000 rounds. I realize any good running rifle should be able to achieve this, my AK with iron sights does it too.
I'm not sure what more you could want from a duty grade rifle. Pick up a dirty gun with bulk ammo and not have any malfunctions, even after 4 mags when it's hot.
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Renegade04
02-29-20, 12:01
Guys, I was finally able get out and test one of my latest AR builds that has a PSA 16" Carbine Length 5.56 NATO 1:7 M4 Nitride Freedom Upper assembly. This one.
https://i.imgur.com/AMoAzVZ.jpg
It shot very well. The Primary Arms SLx Advanced Push Button Microdot Red Dot Sight zeroed easily (@ 50 yards) and the MAGPUL MBUS Rear Sight required no adjustment. I am very pleased with this upper.
3 moa is not great, but far from horrible. 3 moa is plenty enough accurate using ball ammo to kill at 200 yards and under.
It's also well within the vaunted "MIL SPEC" we always hear about.....
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