View Full Version : Let’s Talk About Safes...
I’m looking to upgrade both size and security of my safe. A lot has changed over the years.
Let’s keep this focused on safes, and assume for this discussion that the other layers of security are already met (alarm system, dogs, opsec, etc).
The research thus far has led to the upper ends of Liberty Safes (the presidential 50), the liberty National security magnum 50 (same as the presidential, but external hinges and different esthetics), then the Fort Knox Titan or Legend, and possible the AMSEC BF or BFII.
I’m looking at an in-home safe, so while obviously the security features are by far the top priority, the esthetics are of interest as well (I’m married, so yeah).
The features that seem to be of concern is the actual STEEL thickness of not only the door but the rest if the body as well.
Then there’s the locking features. Liberty now has 4” steel bars instead of cylinder bolts. Liberty “says” the bats are superior to the bolts as they have more surface area. But which is better really? Thicker bolts or more surface area bars? Liberty contends that in a safe attack, the bolts break at the riveted connection to the locking mechanism. ?
I like the Fort Knox safes with the corner bolts as well as 4-way bolts around the door. But is liberty correct in their contention that bolts in general snap at the rivet point?
I like the specs of the AMSEC options but they seem fairly basic from an options standpoint and esthetically fairly boring.
Locks... digital vs manual. I like the quick access, and ability to change combinations of digital. I also like the look and dependability of the classic manual lock. From a quick look around the web, it looks like for someone that knows what they are doing, a manual lock might be fairly easy to crack and the digital is much more difficulty crack the code.
Fort Knox has a “redundant lock” option that has TWO locks on the door, 1 electronic and 1 manual. The theory being that if the electronic fails (battery, solenoid, EMP, etc) the safe can be opened with the manual lock. But... if the manual lock is easy (for some) to crack, the redundancy of the two locks seems to negate the security aspects of the electronic lock.
Relockers.. these are new to me. They seem important though. If a safe is tampered with and a relocker fires, how will I be able to access the safe?
Lastly, what general percentage/ratio do you find reasonable or advisable for a cost of safe vs value of contents?
Thoughts?
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diving dave
01-12-20, 12:06
Libertys are nice. I have 2, one with electric combo and the other manual. Alot of people have had issues with the electric combos but I'm going on 10 years no issues.
Grand58742
01-12-20, 13:23
Libertys are nice. I have 2, one with electric combo and the other manual. Alot of people have had issues with the electric combos but I'm going on 10 years no issues.
Same here, though I went with the mechanical combo lock.
One investment for any safe should be a dehumidifier.
Were your Liberty’s with the new “bar” locks?
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I have several safes. I have one premium safe that is twice as heavy as my Sportsmans warehouse Browning safe. IMHO, I feel like my situation is that I'm keeping tweekers out of my shit and dont feel like I need the best super heavy beast mode. I cant move my high end safe, it takes professional movers to do it. Thats good and bad. My guess is you will be happy with any of those safes.
Good luck.
PB
Grand58742
01-12-20, 18:15
Were your Liberty’s with the new “bar” locks?
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I'm not sure when they put in the "new bars" as I got mine in 2012. It's a Franklin 35 though.
I personally don’t mess with typical RSC type gun safes. If you want real security that can’t be breached by any monkey with a Sawzall, buy a composite TL15, composite TL30, or better yet a composite TL30x6. The composite TL15 is a nice compromise in that they are not as heavy nor as expensive as a TL30 or TL30x6. I recommend buying a used reconditioned TL, as they will be quite reasonable in price (in many cases close in price to one of the high end RSC gun safes). The insurance industry has very specific metrics for the monetary value that can be insure in the various high security (TL, TRTL, TXTL) safes. And don’t mess with electronic locks.
Josh has great advice.
Also look into Graffunder. Probably what I would buy if I wanted a high quality safe for home use.
I’m looking to upgrade both size and security of my safe. A lot has changed over the years.
Let’s keep this focused on safes, and assume for this discussion that the other layers of security are already met (alarm system, dogs, opsec, etc).
The research thus far has led to the upper ends of Liberty Safes (the presidential 50), the liberty National security magnum 50 (same as the presidential, but external hinges and different esthetics), then the Fort Knox Titan or Legend, and possible the AMSEC BF or BFII.
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Here's my general write up on safes for additional info/thoughts on the topic. Personally, I'd go with the AMSEC product any day. They focus on security vs shiny paint and such and have more experience designing and building safes (actually an RSC) than anyone else.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?51518-General-safe-gun-safe-info
Adrenaline_6
01-13-20, 09:31
A sub contractor locksmith that I deal with at work told me if your smart, you don't break into a safe through the door, you break into the side or back. That is where most of them are weaker.
diving dave
01-13-20, 10:47
What ever you go with, make sure it is bolted down. When I worked as an LEO, we had a burglary where a dude's 1000 Lb. Amsec safe was wheeled right out the garage. It was found about a week later dumped in a creek. Empty of course.
All of the safes that have been mentioned can easily be broken into in just a few minutes with a cheap Harbor Freight angle grinder and a cutting wheel.
https://youtu.be/F7k4q3b2q1o
All of the safes that have been mentioned can easily be broken into in just a few minutes with a cheap Harbor Freight angle grinder and a cutting wheel.
You will not get into an AMSEC BF series II with cheap Harbor Freight angle grinder and a cutting wheel quickly per that vid. Given enough time, one can get into any safe/RSC of course. As always, steps should be taken to make it as difficult as possible to attack anything but the door, such as places in closets and bolted down so there's no/minimal access to the sides/rear and so forth. Your basic big store RSC gun safe per that vid, yep, 15-20 mins. The OP requested no discussion on it, but that's also why effective security is layered with cameras, alarm, etc. and personally, I'd take a AMSEC BF II bolted in a closet with cams, alarm, and quality locks, vs say a TL30 sitting in the middle of a living room minus the others and the former combo still less $.
Another factor I think many don't do the maff on is, what is the value of what you're trying to protect?
I have seen people put 6 figure gun collections in cheap RCSs along with other valuable stuff, but it also does not make much sense to protect a few handguns and a Timex watch with a TL30 safe, so some calcs should be made there.
Are there go to entities for refurbed Amsec and TL Safes?
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Whiskey_Bravo
01-13-20, 12:22
All of the safes that have been mentioned can easily be broken into in just a few minutes with a cheap Harbor Freight angle grinder and a cutting wheel.
https://youtu.be/F7k4q3b2q1o
As Will mentioned that won't work or be as easy on the AMSEC. Also, that video seems to be edited for time. Given enough time you can get into any safe/RSC.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-13-20, 12:24
Are there go to entities for refurbed Amsec and TL Safes?
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Depending on where you live I would look local. These things weigh a lot. I have purchased from a place in Dallas a few times and they always have used for sale. You just have to be patient if you are looking for something like a large TL.
As Will mentioned that won't work or be as easy on the AMSEC. Also, that video seems to be edited for time. Given enough time you can get into any safe/RSC.
End of vid, he says 20 mins. Seems about right on a basic cheap RSC gun safe with cheap thin (14g?) steel and no composites used between inner and outer boxes.
I was looking at a Liberty as well, but you guys pooped in my Cheerios...
Thanks a ton for all the great info. I was originally pretty set on a liberty presidential or magnum 50. Then ft Knox looked to have better specs for similar pricing. After digging even further, I think the AMSEC BFII is the route I’ll be going.
As there are cameras in the room of the safe that send motion detected notifications along with video, I’m not needing something that will withstand hours upon hours upon hours of heavy/professional attacks. Just something that will hold up long enough for me or LE to get there. That said, I what something of substantial quality and security in case the notifications fail. With the safe secured to the ground and the cameras, alarm system, and dogs, it’s highly doubtful anyone is getting to the safe let alone spending massive time working on opening the thing.
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Thanks a ton for all the great info. I was originally pretty set on a liberty presidential or magnum 50. Then ft Knox looked to have better specs for similar pricing. After digging even further, I think the AMSEC BFII is the route I’ll be going.
As there are cameras in the room of the safe that send motion detected notifications along with video, I’m not needing something that will withstand hours upon hours upon hours of heavy/professional attacks. Just something that will hold up long enough for me or LE to get there. That said, I what something of substantial quality and security in case the notifications fail. With the safe secured to the ground and the cameras, alarm system, and dogs, it’s highly doubtful anyone is getting to the safe let alone spending massive time working on opening the thing.
And if they do, it was an inside job as they came prepared knowing what you had. Another reason to make sure it's out of view and no cleaning lady, workmen, etc know it exists at all. Secondarily, it's not a bad idea to have a cheap lockable metal cabinet to put power tools, crowbars, etc in as using your own tools to take it or open it another tactic if you keep such tools in work shed, etc.
A sub contractor locksmith that I deal with at work told me if your smart, you don't break into a safe through the door, you break into the side or back. That is where most of them are weaker.
This is great advice to head for residential safe owners...enclose it, so only the door is exsposed. Even if it takes the bad guys another 5 minutes to tear down a false wall to get at the side of a safe. It might be enough time to matter.
Are there go to entities for refurbed Amsec and TL Safes?
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Your best option is to search for a local safe and vault dealer who has inventory. A real safe/vault/lock place, not some place selling run of the mill RSCs. They commonly have used refurbished high security safes. If you can’t find one, Empire Safe in NY and Zykan Safe and Vault in MO are good places to look. If you don’t buy from a local shop, you will pay freight shipping and often a separate delivery fee, which can be expensive. Freight and delivery on a big ass TL30x6 was like $1800 total for me back in 2013. So consider that when looking locally.
I was looking at a Liberty as well, but you guys pooped in my Cheerios...
You have a great safe and vault shop in your area. I think I have your number and will text you his contact.
My next safe will be a SnapSafe. https://www.snapsafe.com/modular-safes A shooting buddy bought one when he needed a larger safe and he likes it better than the last two gunsafes he purchased. He and his son were able to move the parts into the basement and assemble it without any special equipment to move it.
It's not cheap, that is for certain, but it is easier to move than other large gunsafes.
My next safe will be a SnapSafe. https://www.snapsafe.com/modular-safes A shooting buddy bought one when he needed a larger safe and he likes it better than the last two gunsafes he purchased. He and his son were able to move the parts into the basement and assemble it without any special equipment to move it.
It's not cheap, that is for certain, but it is easier to move than other large gunsafes.
But does it actually secure your valuables against burglary or is it easily defeated with simple tools? Ease of assembly, disassembly, and moving are not factors in buying a safe unless you live in an apartment, condo, or similar.
But does it actually secure your valuables against burglary or is it easily defeated with simple tools? Ease of assembly, disassembly, and moving are not factors in buying a safe unless you live in an apartment, condo, or similar.
There's a brand that is a B rated security safe that is modular and comes in segments. I forget the name off hand. It's not fire rated however. I don't see a UL rating for the product in that link, but it appears an RSC at best.
There's a brand that is a B rated security safe that is modular and comes in segments. I forget the name off hand. It's not fire rated however. I don't see a UL rating for the product in that link, but it appears an RSC at best.
B rating is not a UL certificate. I don’t do RSCs, only composite TLs.
But does it actually secure your valuables against burglary or is it easily defeated with simple tools? Ease of assembly, disassembly, and moving are not factors in buying a safe unless you live in an apartment, condo, or similar.
The attachment points cannot be reached without getting inside the safe, which is suppose to be a difficult task. A 900 lb. safe would be difficult to move to the basement if not modular.
I am not aware of any burglaries in the Midwest where the Snap Safe was in the home, so I cannot speak definitively about their track record. Other safes I've seen defeated were pushed over and the back of the safes were cut open. In one case the burglars borrowed the homeowner's Oxy-Acetylene torch to cut the back off the safe and they were nice enough to return it to the garage. In other cases a saw with a steel cutting blade was used. Burglaries involving a gun safe that I've investigated number fewer than 10, so that's a small sample. Small safes, gun safes and other types, were removed from the home and found elsewhere.
medicman816
01-14-20, 21:34
Your best option is to search for a local safe and vault dealer who has inventory. A real safe/vault/lock place, not some place selling run of the mill RSCs. They commonly have used refurbished high security safes. If you can’t find one, Empire Safe in NY and Zykan Safe and Vault in MO are good places to look. If you don’t buy from a local shop, you will pay freight shipping and often a separate delivery fee, which can be expensive. Freight and delivery on a big ass TL30x6 was like $1800 total for me back in 2013. So consider that when looking locally.
This is the way to go if your budget allows. The RSC type "safes" offer little protection over the stack-on walmart special to anyone who is determined. As for fire protection, they will likely protect your guns in a "room and contents" fire, but with a "fully involved" fire you will likely suffer losses due to heat, and rust if you aren't quick enough to recover the contents. When dealing with used TL30 safes, it has been my experience that you are looking at a x2+ price over a RSC, but not likely a x3, unless you're talking crazy delivery distances. While they can be moved yourself, I wouldn't recommend it. A falling 3,000# refrigerator will mess you up... And it should go without saying that these are a basement/garage unit, unless you've got some crazy strong floors.
It seems that the "Gun Safe" industry is more interested in selling pretty boxes with questionable fire protection than security.
(I edited my long and rambling original post.)
Andy
B rating is not a UL certificate. I don’t do RSCs, only composite TLs.
Not a UL rating but a rating in the safe industry, above most RSC in terms of security. I'd get a TL rates safe any day too.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-15-20, 07:49
It seems that the "Gun Safe" industry is more interested in selling pretty boxes with questionable fire protection than security.
(I edited my long and rambling original post.)
Andy
Yep. But then again that is all the average buyer cares about. A pretty safe. And most buys think their "safe" is super heavy because it's 400 to 600lbs, they just don't realize that most of that weight is a couple of layers of sheet rock that.
The attachment points cannot be reached without getting inside the safe, which is suppose to be a difficult task. A 900 lb. safe would be difficult to move to the basement if not modular.
I am not aware of any burglaries in the Midwest where the Snap Safe was in the home, so I cannot speak definitively about their track record. Other safes I've seen defeated were pushed over and the back of the safes were cut open. In one case the burglars borrowed the homeowner's Oxy-Acetylene torch to cut the back off the safe and they were nice enough to return it to the garage. In other cases a saw with a steel cutting blade was used. Burglaries involving a gun safe that I've investigated number fewer than 10, so that's a small sample. Small safes, gun safes and other types, were removed from the home and found elsewhere.
If you're set on modular, look at zanotti also:
https://zanottiarmor.com/
IMO, the "gun safe" is just a convenient place to store them and keep them out of the hands of kids and honest people.
It's the monitored alarm system, dogs, and insurance policy that really protects them.
IMO, the "gun safe" is just a convenient place to store them and keep them out of the hands of kids and honest people.
It's the monitored alarm system, dogs, and insurance policy that really protects them.
You didn't read the thread did you? Also, AMSEC makes a TL 30 gun safe, so such generalizations are not accurate. Yes, what most people but buy as "gun safe" is a cheap RSC that just keeps kids and snatch and grab types out. There are also some RSC's, that will keep all but the most skilled out for a lengthy amount of time. Whether I had a cheapo RSC or a TL 30, layering the security via cams, alarm, etc is $ well spent regardless.
You didn't read the thread did you? Also, AMSEC makes a TL 30 gun safe, so such generalizations are not accurate. Yes, what most people but buy as "gun safe" is a cheap RSC that just keeps kids and snatch and grab types out. There are also some RSC's, that will keep all but the most skilled out for a lengthy amount of time. Whether I had a cheapo RSC or a TL 30, layering the security via cams, alarm, etc is $ well spent regardless.
Yes. And I know real TL30 safes exist. But I don't want/need a LT30 safe. That's what I'm saying.
To me, the job of that box is to keep honest people out until the dogs eat them or the alarm summons the cops. If they get in, I'll call State Farm.
I don't want to have to ass around with figuring out how to move a 2000lb safe or have to stick it in an uninsulated garage because it won't go through the door and my floor won't hold it up.
Yes. And I know real TL30 safes exist. But I don't want/need a LT30 safe. That's what I'm saying.
To me, the job of that box is to keep honest people out until the dogs eat them or the alarm summons the cops. If they get in, I'll call State Farm.
I don't want to have to ass around with figuring out how to move a 2000lb safe or have to stick it in an uninsulated garage because it won't go through the door and my floor won't hold it up.
Got it. I fall somewhere in the middle and feel like a higher end RSC is worth the $ and will keep out all but most determined out, along with the other security measures. In cost and weight, a good compromise.
I don't want to have to ass around with figuring out how to move a 2000lb safe or have to stick it in an uninsulated garage because it won't go through the door and my floor won't hold it up.
A high security safe is a pita when it comes to weight. 2,000 lbs is a rather small safe when talking about a TL30x6. You don’t own safe, safe own you. Moving is painful and costly.
A high security safe is a pita when it comes to weight. 2,000 lbs is a rather small safe when talking about a TL30x6. You don’t own safe, safe own you. Moving is painful and costly.
Many if not most leave the safe when/if they move at that point. I know a few people who purchased homes with safes in them. Hot tubs are a similar deal. Once it's there, it's pretty much staying there.
Many if not most leave the safe when/if they move at that point. I know a few people who purchased homes with safes in them. Hot tubs are a similar deal. Once it's there, it's pretty much staying there.
That’s bananas. Mine move with me. The resale market on high security safes is very good. It makes more sense to sell and buy another for the next home.
That’s bananas. Mine move with me. The resale market on high security safes is very good. It makes more sense to sell and buy another for the next home.
Like many things, perhaps negotiated into the price of the house. I asked the people who purchased my house if they wanted the hot tub or should I sell it. They wanted it, we added some $ for it, and all were happy that day. 3-4k+ lb safe into a basement is bad enough. Getting it out must be interesting. I took my RSC with me when I moved which is 900lbs. There was an extra charge for that too. In retrospect, not sure it was worth it. Cost me 12k to move a house from MA to FL, and in retrospect, could have gotten new chit for 12K!
Adrenaline_6
01-16-20, 13:09
Like many things, perhaps negotiated into the price of the house. I asked the people who purchased my house if they wanted the hot tub or should I sell it. They wanted it, we added some $ for it, and all were happy that day. 3-4k+ lb safe into a basement is bad enough. Getting it out must be interesting. I took my RSC with me when I moved which is 900lbs. There was an extra charge for that too. In retrospect, not sure it was worth it. Cost me 12k to move a house from MA to FL, and in retrospect, could have gotten new chit for 12K!
I'm with you man. It cost us a sh*tload more than that to move everything from Hawaii. I wanted to buy everything new, but women and their sentimentality overruled. Of course after the fact, she agreed that it would have been the better choice. I just have a cheap $500 safe to keep it from unsafe hands. My dogs are the security.
IMO, the "gun safe" is just a convenient place to store them and keep them out of the hands of kids and honest people.
It's the monitored alarm system, dogs, and insurance policy that really protects them.
This is pretty much my situation. A decent "safe" (Liberty Colonial) bolted into concrete in a locked closet in my garage is ok for my situation. I have a monitored alarm system, so they'd have to get past the motion and door sensors to get to the safe, not to mention not alerting the dog, who loses his mind at the slightest hint of someone coming in. We live in a smallish city, so response times are about 5 minutes. If they're able to get through everything and get into the safe or tote it off in that time frame, they earned it. Then it's time to report it and call my insurance company.
My earliest memories are going back to early grade school of my first home catching fire...nothing scares me more & will have that stench embedded in my noggin forever. The AMSEC B&F series are really nice.
I found a gem out of a downtown warehouse of a safe that came from Pretoria South Africa called Robust & weighs in at around 4.5k-5k lbs & TL30 rated. I swear, the door on that safe weighs as much as my B&F & overall the same size. The hinges on the B&F are about an inch where the Robust look like a beer can. There are two threaded holes on top for lifting & over an inch in diameter. Walls are about 4-5 inches thick & maybe lined with asbestos being TL30. They think it was originally used to store diamonds but I can't find much 411 on it. Cost more to move it than what I paid & broke the movers winch on the first go round. Yeah, burglary is so back seat as a threat, but I want to give FD every second I can.
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