View Full Version : Daniel Defense Pivot Pin Hole honed out: Problem or not?
SouthwestAviator
01-14-20, 20:58
Last spring I got a Daniel Defense complete rifle, new. I started freaking out because I noticed what appeared to be some odd wear in the pivot pin/takedown pin holes. DD customer service told me (and others who asked them about the same thing) that they hone out the holes a bit after anodizing to ensure a good mating of the upper and lower receivers. At the time I was afraid of the honed off anodizing causing premature wear of the pivot pin holes, where the steel pins would eventually "egg out" the holes to the point of making both receivers unusable.
Some here raised a stink, saying my concerns were valid, while most others said it was nothing. I ended up selling it off. Here I am a year later, thinking about how nice that DD was other than that one thing... and now I'm wondering if I really was freaking out over nothing. (I'd also like to say that DD's customer service was exemplary and makes me want to try them again).
Would this concern you at all from a longevity standpoint? Here are some pics I took back then.
https://imgur.com/a/wQJbga4
Apologies in advance about the pictures.
SouthwestAviator
01-14-20, 21:14
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Outlander Systems
01-14-20, 21:15
I’ve had three DD uppers and they all had this. No issues whatsoever with any of them.
SouthwestAviator
01-14-20, 21:38
I’ve had three DD uppers and they all had this. No issues whatsoever with any of them.
How many rounds through each of them? I'm more concerned about long term durability, like the pin holes egging out at high round counts.
ETA: I've gotten to inspect several DD's since last year and noticed that they all had the pin holes like this. That's part of what has me considering that it's not an issue and is normal. I'd really like to convince myself it's not a potential problem at high round counts, because other than that one thing it was the closest to perfect AR I've had.
I think that it's a complete non issue.
Eurodriver
01-15-20, 05:55
Lol I should show you one of my lowers. Looks like someone took a drill to it and I’ve never even though about it being an issue. Has probably 20,000 trouble free rounds through it.
Poor DD customer service. Can’t believe you called them over that.
Blankstrap
01-15-20, 05:59
First I've heard and I own a DD. Clearly not a problem here, though it isn't what I'd call a high round count gun; your definition isn't defined.
If they do this across their line-up and have been for any length of time, I'd wager issues would be known by now.
Real question is, why do you think you're going to get any different answers now than you did a year ago? It's the same question. Sounds like the real issue is you miss the rifle and want to replace it. I'd do that. ;)
SouthwestAviator
01-15-20, 06:31
First I've heard and I own a DD. Clearly not a problem here, though it isn't what I'd call a high round count gun; your definition isn't defined.
If they do this across their line-up and have been for any length of time, I'd wager issues would be known by now.
Real question is, why do you think you're going to get any different answers now than you did a year ago? It's the same question. Sounds like the real issue is you miss the rifle and want to replace it. I'd do that. ;)
Does your DD have this too?
I suppose high round count is “the more the better”, and 6k rounds isn’t what I’d consider a high count, but it’s a start. I’m just curious if it causes any shorter of a service life (particularly for the lower).
(And yes, I will fully admit I miss the rifle and want reassurance that it’s all fine so I can replace it.)
After seeing this phenomenon on many DD rifles since then, and comparing that “issue” to other issues I’ve seen on factory rifles of reputable manufacture, it has caused me to reconsider.
ETA: the last time this was brought up in a thread started by someone else, it was the user Sry0fcr that was convinced that it was unacceptable and not according to proper QC protocol (allegedly he works in that type of business). Here's the thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?214712-worn-anodizing-in-pivot-pin-hole-on-brand-new-Daniel-Defense-upper
Last spring I got a Daniel Defense complete rifle, new. I started freaking out because I noticed what appeared to be some odd wear in the pivot pin/takedown pin holes. DD customer service told me (and others who asked them about the same thing) that they hone out the holes a bit after anodizing to ensure a good mating of the upper and lower receivers. At the time I was afraid of the honed off anodizing causing premature wear of the pivot pin holes, where the steel pins would eventually "egg out" the holes to the point of making both receivers unusable.
Some here raised a stink, saying my concerns were valid, while most others said it was nothing. I ended up selling it off. Here I am a year later, thinking about how nice that DD was other than that one thing... and now I'm wondering if I really was freaking out over nothing. (I'd also like to say that DD's customer service was exemplary and makes me want to try them again).
Would this concern you at all from a longevity standpoint? Here are some pics I took back then.
https://imgur.com/a/wQJbga4
Apologies in advance about the pictures.
1) The black dye can be removed without removing the anodizing
2) The only way to know for certain is to shoot the gun until you find out
3) You're never going to be happy with any of your choices until you deal with your analysis paralysis, accept the fact nothing is perfect and that good enough really is good enough
Outlander Systems
01-15-20, 08:06
Dude, it’s beyond a non-issue. The anodizing isn’t going to protect the substrate material from shear wear any more than bare aluminum.
Get another DD dude. Seriously. Simmer down, porkchop.
Eurodriver
01-15-20, 08:08
1) The black dye can be removed without removing the anodizing
2) The only way to know for certain is to shoot the gun until you find out
3) You're never going to be happy with any of your choices until you deal with your analysis paralysis, accept the fact nothing is perfect and that good enough really is good enough
#3 holy shit. Mist coming in with the truth bombs.
This is why I’d never be in retail. Imagine You’re having a good day and customers are telling you about how they’ve run your guns hard and they always work.
Then this dude comes in wearing his fedora and points out a microscopic anodizing issue inside the pivot pin hole.
I wouldn’t know whether to laugh or kill myself.
#3 holy shit. Mist coming in with the truth bombs.
This is why I’d never be in retail. Imagine You’re having a good day and customers are telling you about how they’ve run your guns hard and they always work.
Then this dude comes in wearing his fedora and points out a microscopic anodizing issue inside the pivot pin hole.
I wouldn’t know whether to laugh or kill myself.
Hope he doesn't see mark the charging handle latch is making on the receiver!
Blankstrap
01-15-20, 08:46
Does your DD have this too?
I suppose high round count is “the more the better”, and 6k rounds isn’t what I’d consider a high count, but it’s a start. I’m just curious if it causes any shorter of a service life (particularly for the lower).
(And yes, I will fully admit I miss the rifle and want reassurance that it’s all fine so I can replace it.)
After seeing this phenomenon on many DD rifles since then, and comparing that “issue” to other issues I’ve seen on factory rifles of reputable manufacture, it has caused me to reconsider.
ETA: the last time this was brought up in a thread started by someone else, it was the user Sry0fcr that was convinced that it was unacceptable and not according to proper QC protocol (allegedly he works in that type of business). Here's the thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?214712-worn-anodizing-in-pivot-pin-hole-on-brand-new-Daniel-Defense-upperI'm about a week out from my DD being at hand; I don't recall the pin holes "honed" as described in the thread you linked or looking like the pics included, but fact is everything works on the rifle and being such I never looked at the little things that closely -- a statement that serves as a suggestion.
What the DD did come with vis-a-vis pin holes was a front one tight (or slightly out of spec) enough that it needs a punch for takedown; ran the pin a thousand times and it's still sphincter tight; it's a shrug to me -- perhaps I could use a honed one. ;)
What Sry0fcr makes clear in the linked thread is that he doesn't think this is a functional issue -- something he reiterates -- but that it's non-standard and to him indicative of selling factory seconds as firsts, something he dislikes. Whether he's correct or not (about any of it) is unknown, but since you're worried about practical considerations and it's Sry0fcr waving the red flag, even he's saying for your purposes it's a non-issue.
I did just check my BCM (all that's at hand, presently) and it's anodized through the pin holes, for what that is or isn't worth.
3) You're never going to be happy with any of your choices until you deal with your analysis paralysis, accept the fact nothing is perfect and that good enough really is good enoughWell said. This, I think, is OP's most important takeaway here...
Outlander Systems
01-15-20, 08:52
Hey check it out.
If the takedown pin hole was slightly over bored for tolerance stack, and anodized, we’d have the same people bitching about slop in upper to lower fitment; there’s simply no winning.
It’s a lot like the, “Muh gas port is overgassed tho” autistic screeching. If companies make them at the mean to adequately cycle reliably across a buffet of ammunition, you’ll have dudes crying that the brutal recoil of the 5.56 beating them up and spraying them in the face with gas when they perform a niche task like add a suppressor. Conversely, these same dudes will piss and moan about an undergassed rifle not cycling properly.
It’s a no-win game for the manufacturers, short of settling for the law of averages and allowing the end-users without smoothbrains to adapt accordingly.
Eurodriver
01-15-20, 08:54
Remember that guy who put black electrical tape on his brass deflector to avoid marking up his DD?
Is this a Daniel Defense customer thing? Do they attract these kinds of people or is it coincidence?
What Sry0fcr makes clear in the linked thread is that he doesn't think this is a functional issue -- something he reiterates -- but that it's non-standard and to him indicative of selling factory seconds as firsts, something he dislikes. Whether he's correct or not (about any of it) is unknown, but since you're worried about practical considerations and it's Sry0fcr waving the red flag, even he's saying for your purposes it's a non-issue.
I stand by my previous statements. Although I'll concede that it may not be reworked parts, but part of a poor process for ensuring a tight upper/lower fit insofar as there's no good manufacturing reason to remove material after coating unless you're reworking the parts to bring them back into dimensional tolerance or... you're just too lazy/incompetent to match receivers and maintain traceability prior to anodizing. In my experience, it's probably not the only area they're cutting corners on speaking as a guy whose job it was to find the cut corners (auditor) and also the guy that helped cover them up (consultant). :jester:
Eurodriver
01-15-20, 11:21
https://i.imgur.com/ihPuul5.jpg
RobertTheTexan
01-15-20, 11:49
Hope he doesn't see mark the charging handle latch is making on the receiver!
What?!?! That's bad?? OH MY GAAWWWWWDDD!!! I'm going to send all my uppers back!! :eek: I wouldn't doubt that somewhere, probably many somewheres' people have returned rifles to gun stores or called the CS hotline for that and other non-issue issues. The real issue I think is that people just don't know. They invest in a rifle and find some minor imperfection or maybe it's just how the manufacturing process makes something and it doesn't look "right" or like their buddies rifle and then it becomes an issue. God forbid they travel over to Larpdom aka arfcom and ask there. Or as time goes on, ask here. Sometimes there's not a huge delta between the two. Hope your new year is off to a good start!
SouthwestAviator
01-15-20, 12:15
I stand by my previous statements. Although I'll concede that it may not be reworked parts, but part of a poor process for ensuring a tight upper/lower fit insofar as there's no good manufacturing reason to remove material after coating unless you're reworking the parts to bring them back into dimensional tolerance or... you're just too lazy/incompetent to match receivers and maintain traceability prior to anodizing. In my experience, it's probably not the only area they're cutting corners on speaking as a guy whose job it was to find the cut corners (auditor) and also the guy that helped cover them up (consultant). :jester:
Do you also stand by your previous statement that it isn’t and won’t be a functional issue?
Do you also stand by your previous statement that it isn’t and won’t be a functional issue?
Engineering and manufacturing could probably talk me into a "Fit for purpose" deviation request.
Remember that guy who put black electrical tape on his brass deflector to avoid marking up his DD?
There's gold in this thread!
Last spring I got a Daniel Defense complete rifle, new. I started freaking out because I noticed what appeared to be some odd wear in the pivot pin/takedown pin holes. DD customer service told me (and others who asked them about the same thing) that they hone out the holes a bit after anodizing to ensure a good mating of the upper and lower receivers. At the time I was afraid of the honed off anodizing causing premature wear of the pivot pin holes, where the steel pins would eventually "egg out" the holes to the point of making both receivers unusable.
Some here raised a stink, saying my concerns were valid, while most others said it was nothing. I ended up selling it off. Here I am a year later, thinking about how nice that DD was other than that one thing... and now I'm wondering if I really was freaking out over nothing. (I'd also like to say that DD's customer service was exemplary and makes me want to try them again).
Would this concern you at all from a longevity standpoint? Here are some pics I took back then.
https://imgur.com/a/wQJbga4
Apologies in advance about the pictures.
I own a DD V7S 11.5" SBR (2017 manufacture). My rifle has the same honing in the pivot pin, but not the rear take down.. My friend's DD MK18 has honing. I'm pretty sure this is normal for Daniel Defense. I would prefer that DD not do it, but it's cosmetic, and you don't ever see it when the rifle is actually put together.
My other AR15 lowers from other manufacturers aren't honed, but have accumulated wear in the take down/pivot holes. One way or another, there is going to be wear in that area just like cam pin wear in a upper receiver. I think it's highly unlikely there will be any actual damage in that area.
In my opinion, DD is a quirky company, and this is just an example of it. However, lots of companies have quirks, and ultimately I think there are more things done right on a DD lower for me to worry about the honing.
https://i.imgur.com/LvEee0A.jpg
I’ve had three DD uppers and they all had this. No issues whatsoever with any of them.
How many rounds through each of them? I'm more concerned about long term durability, like the pin holes egging out at high round counts.
ETA: I've gotten to inspect several DD's since last year and noticed that they all had the pin holes like this. That's part of what has me considering that it's not an issue and is normal. I'd really like to convince myself it's not a potential problem at high round counts, because other than that one thing it was the closest to perfect AR I've had.
Yes, it is a non-issue.
Remember anodizing goes in to the aluminum as well as being on the surface. So, even if they removed all of the black color, there is still hard anodizing.
It many ways it is better, as now you have a hole that is exactly the correct size, rather than "about the right size".
SouthwestAviator
01-15-20, 22:32
Yes, it is a non-issue.
Remember anodizing goes in to the aluminum as well as being on the surface. So, even if they removed all of the black color, there is still hard anodizing.
It many ways it is better, as now you have a hole that is exactly the correct size, rather than "about the right size".
Alright, I'm starting to feel a bit better about it now. As long as there's no way this could cause premature wear, I don't care and would like to purchase another DD.
I kind of wish they didn't do it, I'd be fine with some wiggle between the upper and lower, but as long as it can't negatively affect the rifle's service life it's no big deal.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-16-20, 03:00
Longevity? Premature wear? How many rounds do you fire every year? How many times do you dissemble your receiver halves?
C'mon man, stop this nonsense and go shoot.
grizzlyblake
01-16-20, 05:53
Why not get a different rifle than the DD if that bothers you? SOLGW, Sionics, etc. At least those don't have plastic ejection port covers and plastic ambi safeties. I believe IG pointed out that DD uses a substandard castle nut as well but I can't point to that thread.
SouthwestAviator
01-16-20, 06:20
Why not get a different rifle than the DD if that bothers you? SOLGW, Sionics, etc. At least those don't have plastic ejection port covers and plastic ambi safeties. I believe IG pointed out that DD uses a substandard castle nut as well but I can't point to that thread.
I do remember being unimpressed with the castle nut staking on my DD. My BCMs and Colts have excellent, full staking and in two places, the DD had one tiny little punch that didn't even displace metal into the notch and only in one spot. I was unaware DD uses a non-standard castle nut, though.
Is this the thread? https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?206735-Is-this-staking-enough
Iraqgunz: The problem is the castle nut. Not sure who is making those but a few manufacturers are using them and they are not being made correctly. The staking notches should be roughly a 45 degree angle.
Clyde777: Daniel defense is who made the lower and parts. What exactly is incorrect about the castle nut so I can let DD know?
C'mon man, stop this nonsense and go shoot.
Sage advice.
grizzlyblake
01-16-20, 09:25
If you are about to buy another rifle, and it's clear you are going to go over it with a fine toothed OCD comb, I would suggest staying away from DD and going with one of the smaller builders who is actually going to build *your* rifle when you place your order. SOLGW or Sionics will do this and you'll have complete control over every detail of the build and can deal with them if something shows up that you don't like.
While the guns are probably great you aren't getting that experience with BCM, DD, or the other bigger outfits.
Seriously, call Josh at Sionics, or Mike at SOLGW, and tell them exactly what you want and how you want it built. You'll be happier in the end.
SouthwestAviator
01-16-20, 21:54
If you are about to buy another rifle, and it's clear you are going to go over it with a fine toothed OCD comb, I would suggest staying away from DD and going with one of the smaller builders who is actually going to build *your* rifle when you place your order. SOLGW or Sionics will do this and you'll have complete control over every detail of the build and can deal with them if something shows up that you don't like.
While the guns are probably great you aren't getting that experience with BCM, DD, or the other bigger outfits.
Seriously, call Josh at Sionics, or Mike at SOLGW, and tell them exactly what you want and how you want it built. You'll be happier in the end.
That is something I'm looking into, but I'd really prefer a company that has been around longer than those (afaik this Sionics is completely unrelated to the old one, and SOLGW didn't really come onto the radar before the last half-decade). Preferably ones with large contracts and a proven track record in professional use.
SouthwestAviator
01-17-20, 11:59
Why not get a different rifle than the DD if that bothers you? SOLGW, Sionics, etc. At least those don't have plastic ejection port covers and plastic ambi safeties. I believe IG pointed out that DD uses a substandard castle nut as well but I can't point to that thread.
Do you think the castle nut and staking on the DD is an issue? I don't remember there being a different castle nut than normal on there, but it was only staked in one place and not as impressive looking at on my other rifles.
I'm comparing several rifles right now and each one seems to have something that bothers me about it. The DD sticks out, though, because I love the RIS II rail, 14.5" pinned/welded CHF barrel, and the fact that it's a company with military contracts.
I now am pretty well over the anodizing thing in the pin holes, now it's just down to whether the castle nut and staking is a deal killer or not.
I now am pretty well over the anodizing thing in the pin holes, now it's just down to whether the castle nut and staking is a deal killer or not.
I can't tell if this is a sarcastic comment, but I really do hope so. If not - you're just trolling on this forum at this point.
SouthwestAviator
01-17-20, 13:40
It’s not sarcasm, and it’s not trolling. I simply want don’t want to spend $1500+ on what might be a rifle with substandard parts.
I'm more concerned with the fact that they don't (or haven't in some cases) use Aeroshell during the assembly as well as torquing the castle nut by hand.
Eurodriver
01-17-20, 14:07
It’s not sarcasm, and it’s not trolling. I simply want don’t want to spend $1500+ on what might be a rifle with substandard parts.
You bought a DD. Furniture is substandard. Gas port is substandard. Price is substandard. Castle nut is substandard.
I'm not being sarcastic, nor trolling, either.
SouthwestAviator
01-17-20, 14:21
You bought a DD. Furniture is substandard. Gas port is substandard. Price is substandard. Castle nut is substandard.
I'm not being sarcastic, nor trolling, either.
Fair enough. I respect the data you’ve posted over the years. So what, in your opinion, is not substandard that’s available today? If one wants a nice AR. LMT? BCM? Should I just get another 6920?
CrowCommand
01-17-20, 15:15
To quote jpmuscle: #kacmasterrace
Waiting for that raise to get mine, I build with Aero/Sionics/LaRue for now. Maybe build it yourself so you know who to blame for substandard quality.
SouthwestAviator
01-17-20, 17:18
To quote jpmuscle: #kacmasterrace
Waiting for that raise to get mine, I build with Aero/Sionics/LaRue for now. Maybe build it yourself so you know who to blame for substandard quality.
KAC is certainly an option, the only one I've shot would not reliably cycle quality .223 pressure ammunition, which seems to be something others have experienced. That's the only thing that holds me back on them. I understand they're meant for full power military ammo, but in the civilian world I might need to be able to run .223 during ammo scares.
Please, PLEASE STOP! Enough already. :help: :alcoholic: :suicide2:
SouthwestAviator
01-17-20, 22:55
I'm still tempted by the DD M4A1 because it's almost exactly what I'm looking for, a Block II type. The only thing that concerns me now is the castle nut and staking. Moreso the castle nut itself.
I'm still tempted by the DD M4A1 because it's almost exactly what I'm looking for, a Block II type. The only thing that concerns me now is the castle nut and staking. Moreso the castle nut itself.
Just collect the parts and build up a Colt if that’s the end goal.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-17-20, 23:03
I miss the days where JSantoro or Iraqgunz would've swooped into a thread rife with nonsense and locked it right up with a witty remark.
I'm still tempted by the DD M4A1 because it's almost exactly what I'm looking for, a Block II type. The only thing that concerns me now is the castle nut and staking. Moreso the castle nut itself.
Buy the DD M4A1 and Colt/BCM Castle Nut. Ditch the DD castle, torque and stake yourself and move on. Then we can all go back regularly scheduled programming with less hand wringing....
I miss the days where JSantoro or Iraqgunz would've swooped into a thread rife with nonsense and locked it right up with a witty remark.
Word.
Blankstrap
01-18-20, 17:12
I miss the days where JSantoro or Iraqgunz would've swooped into a thread rife with nonsense and locked it right up with a witty remark.QFT.
SouthwestAviator, you're wrapped around the axle. It's cool, we can all get there sometimes, but it's time to let go. Buy quality and that will be sufficient -- in fact, ditch the term "perfect" from your lexicon and replace it with "sufficient" and you'll be much happier.
Focus on your proficiency with the rifle and forget the rest. Shit's cool.
El Vaquero
01-19-20, 15:27
Buy the DD M4A1 and Colt/BCM Castle Nut. Ditch the DD castle, torque and stake yourself and move on.
This. It’s not difficult or expensive to do. DD is quirky like that in some categories. DD has the castle nut quirk, they used to use huge gas ports (but seemed to have stopped that a few years back). I don’t like the plastic safety selector on the newer rifles but I don’t mind the plastic dust cover. Why anyone would want a plastic safety selector is beyond me. And it’s also lame that DD doesn’t cut the crap and use an industry standard mil spec castle nut with proper staking.
BCM has had issues with their magazine wells not accepting certain Magpul magazine generations.
LMT seems to have had a few out of spec lowers with super tight mag wells.
And Colt has made so many rifles there’s always gonna be something that was missed by QC.
Others have mentioned Sionics and SOLGW. I’ve handled and shot Sionics. Quality and build is on par with the bigger name guys. And Sionics is being used with a lot more police agencies than you’re probably aware of.
I personally own a DD and several Colts. I regularly handle and shoot BCM’s and Sionics. I would not hesitate to own any of those four brands. And I would still buy LMT as well. Bottom line is, as long as there isn’t a serious issue with the unrepairable parts such as an out of spec lower or upper receiver, rail, or barrel; replace and customize what you need to and shoot and move on.
SouthwestAviator
01-20-20, 20:49
This. It’s not difficult or expensive to do. DD is quirky like that in some categories. DD has the castle nut quirk, they used to use huge gas ports (but seemed to have stopped that a few years back). I don’t like the plastic safety selector on the newer rifles but I don’t mind the plastic dust cover. Why anyone would want a plastic safety selector is beyond me. And it’s also lame that DD doesn’t cut the crap and use an industry standard mil spec castle nut with proper staking.
Does this quirk with the castle nut and staking ever lead to any problems with the DD rifles?
DD is a great manufacturer of rifles. I've over thought cosmetic issues myself on rifles. These guns are made to run. I have a ddm4v5. Stop analyzing the cosmetics load some mags and run it like it was made to do. Train with your firearm. If your over thinking cosmetics it's probably sitting in a safe to much.
Blankstrap
01-22-20, 07:09
Does this quirk with the castle nut and staking ever lead to any problems with the DD rifles?Nope. You run searches for these questions?
Buy a rifle. Shoot. ;)
If the rifle you want, with the features you want, completes the cycle of operations without stoppage under the firing conditions and schedule you require, drive on.
Does this quirk with the castle nut and staking ever lead to any problems with the DD rifles?
it definitely might. i remember seeing a couple of posts where castle nuts became loose on dd rifles. do a forum search.
then do a forum search on how dd does not mark their bolts, so technically you really don't know if you're getting a dd bolt or what kind of bolt you are getting at all.
then go see a video from geissele how he talks about barrels (implying DD) not being true hammer forged with the chamber cut by a reamer after the forging process which can lead to accuracy and other issues.
we would all appreciate if you do the research and report your findings and opinions back to this thread. we'd be very interested to learn more on the topic of castle nuts and finish wear.
El Vaquero
01-22-20, 16:36
it definitely might. i remember seeing a couple of posts where castle nuts became loose on dd rifles. do a forum search.
then do a forum search on how dd does not mark their bolts, so technically you really don't know if you're getting a dd bolt or what kind of bolt you are getting at all.
then go see a video from geissele how he talks about barrels (implying DD) not being true hammer forged with the chamber cut by a reamer after the forging process which can lead to accuracy and other issues.
Yes, a loose castle nut can cause a problem. Your rifle will not self destruct if it loosens. It will malfunction and you’ll look like that guy because your castle nut isn’t staked. Buy a $10 punch and move some metal over and you’ll be fine.
Haven’t watched the Geissele video but I do know this. DD sells a shit ton of barrels and you rarely if ever hear of accuracy or chamber issues. So either he wasn’t talking about DD or somehow through a miracle their barrels have an unbelievably high function rate.
Their bolts have not been known for issues either. I wouldn’t sweat it about the BCG or bolt. Their BCG’s are tested and I’d be surprised if their bolts aren’t as well.
SouthwestAviator
01-25-20, 11:52
it definitely might. i remember seeing a couple of posts where castle nuts became loose on dd rifles. do a forum search.
then do a forum search on how dd does not mark their bolts, so technically you really don't know if you're getting a dd bolt or what kind of bolt you are getting at all.
then go see a video from geissele how he talks about barrels (implying DD) not being true hammer forged with the chamber cut by a reamer after the forging process which can lead to accuracy and other issues.
we would all appreciate if you do the research and report your findings and opinions back to this thread. we'd be very interested to learn more on the topic of castle nuts and finish wear.
That seems strange given that Geissele uses DD barrels in their URGI.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-25-20, 11:55
That seems strange given that Geissele uses DD barrels in their URGI.
I agree, not sure what alx01 is talking about, but my URGI has a DDMK18 barrel in it, fresh from Geissele himself....
The word "implying" in alx01's post is VERY important, therefore the information might as well be ignored.
That seems strange given that Geissele uses DD barrels in their URGI.
Geissele uses DD barrels because they were spec/required by the DoD contract.
I agree, not sure what alx01 is talking about, but my URGI has a DDMK18 barrel in it, fresh from Geissele himself....
I agree with your statements in this thread 100%. I think you just missed the spirit of my post (the underhanded nature of it) and its intended audience. grizzman is absolutely correct.
The word "implying" in alx01's post is VERY important, therefore the information might as well be ignored.
One of our challenges is that a lot of the information we read isn't stated in absolute terms. A manufacturer may do something that isn't universally agreed upon (or praised), but it's rare to know the background info on why the decision was made. The only DD gear I've owned are a couple old Lite rails. I'd have no hesitation running a DD barrel in a build, or buying one of their uppers or lowers.
An important aspect of running a weapon system is being able to maintain it. A great way to gain this knowledge is by assembling a carbine yourself, with every part chosen over all other options. Any tool needed to assemble one should be purchased, even if a person has no desire to roll his own, since having a rifle go down and needing to send it back to the manufacturer because of something that can be remedied in a few minutes is poor form.
If I bought a lower with half-assed staked castle nut, I'd send a message to the manufacturer.....then I'd get a punch and take care of it myself. Any manufacturer can send out product that isn't perfect, but DD, BCM, LMT, KAC, Sionics, Colt, etc are all worthy of getting our hard earned money. Agonizing over the purchase decision, with the expected result of receiving an absolutely perfect product with no chance of a problem, doesn't work out in this industry, or any other one as far as I know.
Choose a quality product, and take care of it, so it can take care of you.
KAC is certainly an option, the only one I've shot would not reliably cycle quality .223 pressure ammunition, which seems to be something others have experienced. That's the only thing that holds me back on them. I understand they're meant for full power military ammo, but in the civilian world I might need to be able to run .223 during ammo scares.
I think this was handled sometime ago.
What Mod was the rifle?
I can understand the concern. I’ve used wolf ammo quite extensively in my BCM (ETA: BCMs plural actually) Because it’s cheap and I was shooting 2-gun matches at pistols distances (the range only has pistol bays). Conversely I use BH TMK 77 gr’s for HD. It’s just finding what works for your criteria at the time. The gun can run both $.20 and $1.00 a shot Ammo equally well.
It ran reliably every time. It stands to reason a $1,500 gun or $2,000+ gun can do what a $800-1,000 gun can do. It’s part of the reason pretty much all LE use a Glock over 1911’s from the 70’s and 80’s.
I personally wouldn’t get in the weeds on this, but I am considering a KAC rifle myself at some point. It’s a go / no go criteria for me. My Sionics lower receiver for a planned SBR with A5 extension FTE’d twice with a Midlength upper and the rear take down pin came out because it wasn’t rotated into the detent. It was enough that I abandoned the brand, bought another BCM lower receiver group - shot 100 rounds through it with the same upper and Form 1’d it instead.
It’s just what matters to you.
God Bless,
Brandon
SouthwestAviator
01-29-20, 21:03
Update: I still can’t find any instances of DD factory installed castle nuts coming loose. If anyone else knows of an instance, please post here
Why does Eurodriver think DD rifles are subpar? Or anyone else?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-29-20, 21:40
Update: I still can’t find any instances of DD factory installed castle nuts coming loose. If anyone else knows of an instance, please post here
Why does Eurodriver think DD rifles are subpar? Or anyone else?
There's nothing subpar about DD. Lots of DD rifles out there with high round counts.
Update: I still can’t find any instances of DD factory installed castle nuts coming loose. If anyone else knows of an instance, please post here
Why does Eurodriver think DD rifles are subpar? Or anyone else?
This is a DD rifle that had the castle nut become loose. You can see here where it was lined up and "staked."
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49317962386_4b9c968b2c_b.jpg
DD uses the gootntite method.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49331547542_7d4f5d1371_b.jpg
El Vaquero
01-30-20, 14:56
Not many will probably admit that they’re improperly staked castle nut came loose. That may be why there’s not a lot of reports on the interwebs. I’ve been to Iraqgunz course and he had a few reports of them coming loose which is good enough for me as far as proof that it happens. Seriously though, buy a $10 punch and push some metal over and it’ll be fine. As far as fit and finish go, DD is far ahead than the other guys. It’s just fit and finish isn’t a huge priority for some who use it as a work gun that’s gonna get dropped, scratched, and worn.
AR’s are kinda like cars. All you can do is buy from a reputable company. All car manufacturers have their lemons, and/or occasional issues. But typically if you buy Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Subaru, BMW, etc you’ll be ok. That’s like buying DD, Colt, BCM, Sionics, etc.
And someone posted earlier about having an issue with Sionics. Does that mean Sionics is making crap rifles? No, just means it happened to him. And just like car manufacturers where some have better customer service than other, DD is arguably one of the best in customer service.
Now push some metal over, buy some ammo, and take a rifle class!!!
Not many will probably admit that they’re improperly staked castle nut came loose. That may be why there’s not a lot of reports on the interwebs. I’ve been to Iraqgunz course and he had a few reports of them coming loose which is good enough for me as far as proof that it happens. Seriously though, buy a $10 punch and push some metal over and it’ll be fine. As far as fit and finish go, DD is far ahead than the other guys. It’s just fit and finish isn’t a huge priority for some who use it as a work gun that’s gonna get dropped, scratched, and worn.
AR’s are kinda like cars. All you can do is buy from a reputable company. All car manufacturers have their lemons, and/or occasional issues. But typically if you buy Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Subaru, BMW, etc you’ll be ok. That’s like buying DD, Colt, BCM, Sionics, etc.
And someone posted earlier about having an issue with Sionics. Does that mean Sionics is making crap rifles? No, just means it happened to him. And just like car manufacturers where some have better customer service than other, DD is arguably one of the best in customer service.
Now push some metal over, buy some ammo, and take a rifle class!!!
This is my personal opinion, so completely ignore it if you will. Daniel Defense assembles their rifles in ways that I don't particularly care for and choose to spend my money elsewhere. They have had issues caused by their assembly, so they really should take a hint and fix that. They make good parts, but they are not the only people making quality guns in the game, so we as consumers have options. Knowing what to look for and how to fix it is more important than a measuring contest about whose is better. If someone handed me a DD rifle and said go to war, I wouldn't be upset.
SouthwestAviator
01-31-20, 21:31
This is my personal opinion, so completely ignore it if you will. Daniel Defense assembles their rifles in ways that I don't particularly care for and choose to spend my money elsewhere. They have had issues caused by their assembly, so they really should take a hint and fix that. They make good parts, but they are not the only people making quality guns in the game, so we as consumers have options. Knowing what to look for and how to fix it is more important than a measuring contest about whose is better. If someone handed me a DD rifle and said go to war, I wouldn't be upset.
I think I agree with you. The castle nut and staking thing are, to me, unacceptable on a $1500+ rifle. It shouldn't need to be re-staked right out of the box as a default to be suitable for long term hard use. Why spend that kind of money on it when there are other quality rifles, some for less money, that do it right?
I think I agree with you. The castle nut and staking thing are, to me, unacceptable on a $1500+ rifle. It shouldn't need to be re-staked right out of the box as a default to be suitable for long term hard use. Why spend that kind of money on it when there are other quality rifles, some for less money, that do it right?
Tell us more - I'm really intrigued now. I think most of us are missing a bigger picture here with DD and castle nuts. You have to go deeper and really develop the topic, otherwise you just leave us hanging on the whole issue. It's almost like a best selling book without a final chapter. You really need to drive it home on why you think DD is inferior in general and its nuts are bad in particular. Also what do you think they need to do (and to do "right" in your opinion) to address your concerns about the quality to be suitable for long term hard use?
Can we get a thread lock, whoop whoop?! It's late....
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