View Full Version : Noveske quality post ‘13
I regularly hear around here Noveske’s have lost quality since John passed away and my question is, in what way? Can someone give me personal or first hand information on what isn’t as good anymore or where they’re using cheaper parts? I’m not accusing anyone of anything but many here have a dog in the fight and it sounds like baseless accusations.
My opinion is Noveske is really known for a proprietary chamber and a well spec’d (over gassed) chrome lined barrel. Their stainless barrel also a proprietary chamber and 1/7.7 twist (now everyone has a 1/8 twist) polygonal rifled barrel which in my opinion will take more abuse and stay accurate longer than most other stainless barrel designs. While non of this is new to anyone here, everyone here at the time drank the koolaid! Reminds me of Pliney the Elder, one of the first beers to do a DIPA really well but now many have caught up and some have surpassed. Same with Noveske, at this point I’m sure you can get an equal or slightly better rifle for the same money or less but you’re still spending real coin to do it.
I’m sure many had respect for or had a personal relationship with John and since his passing many things have changed at the shop. I don’t know personally but I can guess that there have been some personnel changes and some slips in QC but overall are they building an inferior product than before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WickedWillis
01-21-20, 17:11
I regularly hear around here Noveske’s have lost quality since John passed away and my question is, in what way? Can someone give me personal or first hand information on what isn’t as good anymore or where they’re using cheaper parts? I’m not accusing anyone of anything but many here have a dog in the fight and it sounds like baseless accusations.
My opinion is Noveske is really known for a proprietary chamber and a well spec’d (over gassed) chrome lined barrel. Their stainless barrel also a proprietary chamber and 1/7.7 twist (now everyone has a 1/8 twist) polygonal rifled barrel which in my opinion will take more abuse and stay accurate longer than most other stainless barrel designs. While non of this is new to anyone here, everyone here at the time drank the koolaid! Reminds me of Pliney the Elder, one of the first beers to do a DIPA really well but now many have caught up and some have surpassed. Same with Noveske, at this point I’m sure you can get an equal or slightly better rifle for the same money or less but you’re still spending real coin to do it.
I’m sure many had respect for or had a personal relationship with John and since his passing many things have changed at the shop. I don’t know personally but I can guess that there have been some personnel changes and some slips in QC but overall are they building an inferior product than before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Definitely not inferior, BUT the industry has caught up to them and many are doing the exact same thing, if not better. 1/7 seems to be the industry standard for quality manufacturers as well.
My SBR lower is Noveske, and my upper will be too. Hopefully someone answers your questions properly.
I’ve wondered about this myself. I think it ultimately comes down to other manufacturers turning out comparable products at a lower price.
Mr. Noveske was a genius; a trailblazer. His fingerprints are all over the modern black rifle.
EE and GB ads that reference “pre-2013” and “before John’s death” are macabre
Eurodriver
01-21-20, 21:36
I have a recent manufacture 12.5” Crusader barrel that’s a laser beam. I don’t believe the hype that they are not the same.
But - I also don’t think they are worth the $2400~ they command. And this is not coming from a cheap penny pincher.
I can buy a BCM, literally throw it away, buy another BCM, and still be several hundred dollars ahead. Noveske’s cost to value ratio is more ****ed up than DD’s.
I’ve wondered about this myself. I think it ultimately comes down to other manufacturers turning out comparable products at a lower price.
They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.
They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.
What is different now?
They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.
I know you’re an industry insider and you have a financial interest but do you also have an NDA or gentleman’s agreement to not discuss further? I also like hi end audio and unfortunately there’s still mountains of more BS in that industry than firearms but some still remains. Not accusing you of peddling said BS but are you legally allowed to uncover some BS with current Noveske? If quality and craftsmanship has declined, by how much?
I’m not a big fan of, “some guy on the internet said they suck so it must be true”...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Back then the juice was worth the squeeze - at the time the 14.5 middie with an adjustable gas block wasn't available from any other mainstream players and the whole "carbine gas for 16 inch or less, middie doesn't work well on those" was the party line, which he proved wrong. Now people are doing 12.5" mids and mid on 14/16 is accepted as good to go.
But the industry has caught up with a lot of what Noveske was doing and after his death the innovative thinking / design was gone from the company.
Hammer_Man
01-22-20, 10:36
The older stuff seemed to be better IMO, fit and finish and QC were top notch. The last couple Gen 1 uppers I bought had dust covers that were kind of loose/wobbly when they were closed. I even switched one out for a Colt dust cover/pin/spring, and it was still loose when closed. I plan to eventually swap these uppers out for BCM, or Zev.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-22-20, 10:40
The old switchblock barrels, and for the most part even current production, are my favorite barrels for suppressed SBRs, problem being finding a rail to work with them. Beyond that, Noveske R&D is stuck in the past. Their quality remains high, but there is nothing at Noveske worth what they charge anymore unless you just love the brand
They have always been pretty much exactly 600$ more than they should. It is one of those cases where you can build it yourself for less.
There was a time when other companies did not make guns like they did. Today that is not true, many companies make a great gun. When Noveske was a great gun was when your other options were a neutered Colt or a Bushmaster. Compared to those it was great.
Today I'd take a KAC, Daniel defense, BCM, Hodge, SOLGW, ect over a Noveske.
And quite honestly when you are talking that much money the only gun to buy is the KAC.
They factually are not the same products today which they were when John was alive.
Please let us know how.
I’m not disbelieving you; I would genuinely like to know.
Like Eurodriver, my recent manufacture Noveske barrels are absurdly accurate.
Other than scattered QC issues that plague nearly all manufacturers, I have only ever heard anecdotal evidence about the Noveske quality decline.
I keep looking for a quantifiable problem with a large sample size regarding Noveske QC.
The most consistent complaint I have seen about Noveske is that they are overpriced and over gassed. Overpriced, I would agree. Over gassed, it depends.
The old switchblock barrels, and for the most part even current production, are my favorite barrels for suppressed SBRs, problem being finding a rail to work with them.
Agreed, I'm essentially stuck with the SWS split rail since I have a 14.5 pinned 51T Blackout MD w/ switchblock - The rail is nice but obviously heavier than a more modern MLOK rail setup. It's my shorty precision rifle and does great in that aspect, just a tad portlier than I'd prefer.
I keep looking for a quantifiable problem with a large sample size regarding Noveske QC.
Good luck with that.
I know you’re an industry insider and you have a financial interest but do you also have an NDA or gentleman’s agreement to not discuss further?
I’m not a big fan of, “some guy on the internet said they suck so it must be true”...
In no way shape or form have I said they suck, not now, not ever. With that out of the way, what I am saying is that they are different now than they were when John was alive. I will not get into propriety changes or differences on levels that I have not previously stated. It is not a matter of financial interest with Noveske, or anyone else. I have done work with them in the past, and I can say that about a lot of manufacturers, you could probably say that I have worked with almost every of the large to medium sized (and plenty of smaller) firearm and related companies. None of the companies have ever thought that I would change my honest opinion of products, and I have always called it like I see it based on my MIL and LE training and experiences. That honesty (or bluntness) has been something that manufacturers know and respect. No worries there. If I had a life of making videos and charging 5k or more a pop and guaranteeing good reviews, that would be different, but I don't.
For people who have tried calling me out on not writing negative reviews (not saying you), I have freely admitted that I will not review a crap product. Time is money, and in many cases there is so little money involved in writing that its not overly worth my time. I am not going to spend my time working with garbage, it just isn't worth it. Magazines don't want crap articles, and it seems that the guys who do want to somehow prove themselves by writing about garbage are trying to prove they are the only honest man in the room. That is great for them, but I'll stick to honest opinions of higher end pieces, and leave the bottom barrel stuff out.
Getting back to Noveske, there are certain things that simply are no longer known at the Noveske company. When John died, Sheri stayed on for awhile, while a new president came on board and made a wide group of sweeping changes. He did this to get Noveske into a better position in both the market, and financially. He left, and shortly later Sheri left (and founded ERA3). Not only did the company lose proprietary information when John died, it lost a massive amount when Sheri left. The office staff wasn't filled with firearm experts, and there was no one on Johnnys level. The people in the back end worked in their individual areas, but weren't experts in the larger sense. Once information is gone, its gone. Look at how long it took after the fall of Rome to figure out concrete!
We have established that there was an information loss at a certain point, but you also need to look at a larger picture and see things have continued to alter in other ways. CHANGE IS NOT BAD, it is simply change. It can be for the better or worse, and I've got news for people, Noveske would look difference after 5 or 10 years even if John hadn't died. Change is important in this industry because people/ customers/ consumers are always looking for a better, cooler, more high speed mouse trap. This industry, and people in general are highly visual (which is great for me), and old products don't sell well.
The changes that are made are often very clear, which is why I'm not saying change is bad (just different). The Gen 2 lowers went away from being forged, and while that may make a few of us cry, how many broken billet lowers have you seen from Noveske? None! Noveske moved on passed the Gen 3, and into a new version, and then included an Ambi variant!! Those are all changes made after the passing of John, and most people like an ambi option. Another change is barrels, with Pac-Nor burning down, changes have to be made, but we have people pointing out (rightfully so), that their Noveske barrels shoot like lasers. There are Noveske pistols, Noveske pistol caliber carbines, and the list goes on and on for new changes and innovation since John left us. Does that make the changes automatically good or bad just because its a change?
I think that all too often people want to focus on Noveske and fixate on John having died. He did, and he was a friend of mine, and all of need to move on. The company he founded has continued to evolve. Probably not in the way John would have, but with growing pains, new people pains, new demands on outsourcing, new suppliers, new friendships and new products, they have continued to grow. If the guns shoot well, that is the end answer for the question. There have been issues that I've heard about, but I'm unaware of anyone not getting issues taken care of, and that counts pretty big for most of us.
On a side note, when Noveske was coming up in the AR world, there were a few others coming up at the same time. Of the three that come to mind immediately for me, Noveske is the only one out of those three that isn't quietly trying to sell off their company (that I'm aware of). It kinda makes you think that maybe they are doing things right...
I know people will read this and say I'm bashing Noveske, and I know that some will read this and say I'm kissing up. Like I said above, I call it like I see it.
I call it like I see it.
I didn’t read that as bashing or sucking up. I enjoyed it, actually.
Eurodriver
01-22-20, 21:12
Sometimes I forget that Stickman can actually be a decent dude.
Thanks for the post.
Sometimes I forget that Stickman can actually be a decent dude.
Thanks for the post.
You can shut the hell up with your nice words!! ;)
On a serious note, there are people this will offend, but like I said, I post honestly from my own point of view.
In no way shape or form have I said they suck, not now, not ever. With that out of the way, what I am saying is that they are different now than they were when John was alive. I will not get into propriety changes or differences on levels that I have not previously stated. It is not a matter of financial interest with Noveske, or anyone else. I have done work with them in the past, and I can say that about a lot of manufacturers, you could probably say that I have worked with almost every of the large to medium sized (and plenty of smaller) firearm and related companies. None of the companies have ever thought that I would change my honest opinion of products, and I have always called it like I see it based on my MIL and LE training and experiences. That honesty (or bluntness) has been something that manufacturers know and respect. No worries there. If I had a life of making videos and charging 5k or more a pop and guaranteeing good reviews, that would be different, but I don't.
For people who have tried calling me out on not writing negative reviews (not saying you), I have freely admitted that I will not review a crap product. Time is money, and in many cases there is so little money involved in writing that its not overly worth my time. I am not going to spend my time working with garbage, it just isn't worth it. Magazines don't want crap articles, and it seems that the guys who do want to somehow prove themselves by writing about garbage are trying to prove they are the only honest man in the room. That is great for them, but I'll stick to honest opinions of higher end pieces, and leave the bottom barrel stuff out.
Getting back to Noveske, there are certain things that simply are no longer known at the Noveske company. When John died, Sheri stayed on for awhile, while a new president came on board and made a wide group of sweeping changes. He did this to get Noveske into a better position in both the market, and financially. He left, and shortly later Sheri left (and founded ERA3). Not only did the company lose proprietary information when John died, it lost a massive amount when Sheri left. The office staff wasn't filled with firearm experts, and there was no one on Johnnys level. The people in the back end worked in their individual areas, but weren't experts in the larger sense. Once information is gone, its gone. Look at how long it took after the fall of Rome to figure out concrete!
We have established that there was an information loss at a certain point, but you also need to look at a larger picture and see things have continued to alter in other ways. CHANGE IS NOT BAD, it is simply change. It can be for the better or worse, and I've got news for people, Noveske would look difference after 5 or 10 years even if John hadn't died. Change is important in this industry because people/ customers/ consumers are always looking for a better, cooler, more high speed mouse trap. This industry, and people in general are highly visual (which is great for me), and old products don't sell well.
The changes that are made are often very clear, which is why I'm not saying change is bad (just different). The Gen 2 lowers went away from being forged, and while that may make a few of us cry, how many broken billet lowers have you seen from Noveske? None! Noveske moved on passed the Gen 3, and into a new version, and then included an Ambi variant!! Those are all changes made after the passing of John, and most people like an ambi option. Another change is barrels, with Pac-Nor burning down, changes have to be made, but we have people pointing out (rightfully so), that their Noveske barrels shoot like lasers. There are Noveske pistols, Noveske pistol caliber carbines, and the list goes on and on for new changes and innovation since John left us. Does that make the changes automatically good or bad just because its a change?
I think that all too often people want to focus on Noveske and fixate on John having died. He did, and he was a friend of mine, and all of need to move on. The company he founded has continued to evolve. Probably not in the way John would have, but with growing pains, new people pains, new demands on outsourcing, new suppliers, new friendships and new products, they have continued to grow. If the guns shoot well, that is the end answer for the question. There have been issues that I've heard about, but I'm unaware of anyone not getting issues taken care of, and that counts pretty big for most of us.
On a side note, when Noveske was coming up in the AR world, there were a few others coming up at the same time. Of the three that come to mind immediately for me, Noveske is the only one out of those three that isn't quietly trying to sell off their company (that I'm aware of). It kinda makes you think that maybe they are doing things right...
I know people will read this and say I'm bashing Noveske, and I know that some will read this and say I'm kissing up. Like I said above, I call it like I see it.
Thanks for that honest response. Lacking your personal insight and detail that is, give or take, about what I was assuming to be the facts. Thank you for taking the time.
On a side note mil spec take down and pivot pins are a bit too tight in a Noveske gen 3 receiver but Noveske branded pins are perfect.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I always figured the Noveske sucks sentiment to be mainly internet dog piling, because you know, its the internet. I have the same Crusader barrel Euro mentioned. Always been very accurate for me also. Their other parts I have used have also been top notch. Are they on the higher side pricewise? Sure. Is their stuff worth the Noveske tax? That's a personal decision.
grizzlyblake
01-23-20, 05:42
On a side note, when Noveske was coming up in the AR world, there were a few others coming up at the same time. Of the three that come to mind immediately for me, Noveske is the only one out of those three that isn't quietly trying to sell off their company (that I'm aware of). It kinda makes you think that maybe they are doing things right...
Thanks for taking the time to post all of that. Very informative.
Can you expand on your last statement or is that not public intel?
I never found their stuff g2g when John WAS alive. Catchy branding and carefully controlled demos, coupled with John being one of the good guys.
Thanks for taking the time to post all of that. Very informative.
Can you expand on your last statement or is that not public intel?
Ehhh, I'm not sure how public it is as it was relayed to me directly and not stuff I read online or anything, so I'm going to have to stay on the silent side unless more info comes out.
I never found their stuff g2g when John WAS alive. Catchy branding and carefully controlled demos, coupled with John being one of the good guys.
Odd, you are the only person I've ever heard of to comment anything even close to the above. Are you able to list a few of the "carefully controlled demos"? I don't recall any off hand, but it isn't like I know everything.
I own a bunch of Noveske rifles from Gen 1-3 and they've all been super accurate and reliable. Since 07 to recently getting another 14.5 afghan upper. They had a good formula that a bunch of the new and up coming companies have been able to follow and improve upon with there own twist. There's so many options now at a cheaper price point that you can choose to your liking. Noveske seems to now cater to those that wan't a rifle that looks really good at a premium price. Not much has changed in terms of how they function other than added ambi features.
They have always been pretty much exactly 600$ more than they should. It is one of those cases where you can build it yourself for less.
Thats true to some degree
CHANGE IS NOT BAD,
Unless your Warsport!
I learned a long time ago that Noveske really doesn't manufacture anything, they simply "finish" parts from other suppliers. Which is what I would do if I got into this business. Noveske from what I know, got in to this business and collaborated with a lot of manufactures like Pacnor, LMT, Vltor and Troy to produce a top of the line AR. They were quick to implement keymod rails as well as 300blk rifles when they first came out. There was a time where they were in my opinion, ahead of the game.
To me, its like Noveske built a lifestyle AR-15. Its like they are saying, "hey, if your going to own and AR, own a Noveske". They dont push the tactical lifestyle on you or the operator lifestyle like other companies do. They have long haired dudes wearing Vans and women wearing flip flops marketing $2700 AR's.
Thats true to some degree
Unless your Warsport!
I learned a long time ago that Noveske really doesn't manufacture anything, they simply "finish" parts from other suppliers. Which is what I would do if I got into this business. Noveske from what I know, got in to this business and collaborated with a lot of manufactures like Pacnor, LMT, Vltor and Troy to produce a top of the line AR. They were quick to implement keymod rails as well as 300blk rifles when they first came out. There was a time where they were in my opinion, ahead of the game.
To me, its like Noveske built a lifestyle AR-15. Its like they are saying, "hey, if your going to own and AR, own a Noveske". They dont push the tactical lifestyle on you or the operator lifestyle like other companies do. They have long haired dudes wearing Vans and women wearing flip flops marketing $2700 AR's.
Exactly, and former Noveske employees went on to form a lifestyle company. It was a super effective marketing machine, and kudos.
https://www.era3.com/
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-24-20, 02:42
Exactly, and former Noveske employees went on to form a lifestyle company. It was a super effective marketing machine, and kudos.
https://www.era3.com/
Lifestyle aside, what did you find not to be "g2g" about Noveske?
Eurodriver
01-24-20, 05:20
Exactly, and former Noveske employees went on to form a lifestyle company. It was a super effective marketing machine, and kudos.
https://www.era3.com/
That’s pretty cool.
It’s nice to see people wearing normal clothes and not Vertx over some Salomons
Exactly, and former Noveske employees went on to form a lifestyle company. It was a super effective marketing machine, and kudos.
https://www.era3.com/Personally I don't see the appeal for $28 trucker hats and T-shirts. Is the logo that cool?
I guess I expected more given their mission statement.
Am I missing something?
WickedWillis
01-24-20, 10:24
That’s pretty cool.
It’s nice to see people wearing normal clothes and not Vertx over some Salomons
It's also nice to see your non-typical looking, non SEAL larpers into shooting.
They definitely target the younger 2A crwod in their videos and ads, which I am completely fine with,
To me, its like Noveske built a lifestyle AR-15. Its like they are saying, "hey, if your going to own and AR, own a Noveske". They dont push the tactical lifestyle on you or the operator lifestyle like other companies do. They have long haired dudes wearing Vans and women wearing flip flops marketing $2700 AR's.
They were the tip of the spear for hipster gun enthusiasts. Toss me another IPA will ya?
Everyone is so concerned with labeling things these days.
Lifestyle aside, what did you find not to be "g2g" about Noveske?
I had 2 Noveske rifles. Both made while John was at the Helm. One was alright, no issues except a very aggressive use of the welder, and lack of using surefire spacer for the pinned MD, but...the other...
-8moa poi shift with known good can and multiple mounts. Surefire T&Ed and gauged the upper and could not figure out wtf.
-overgassed to the point of malfunction with a surefire 556-212 using even h3 and blue sprinco
-feed ramps shaved brass and snagged cartridges multiple times per mag, bending them like bananas.
- lower was out of spec and would not accept milspec uppers (factory sbr gen 2), DD tried to hand pick me an upper. Gave up after 8 wouldnt fit and they gauged it to be out of spec.
Noveske finally just wrote me a check for that gun and took it back. We cool, but even John era guns had issues, ime
Had an out of spec lower as well, a Gen 2 chainsaw lower where no upper would fit, sent it in with the Noveske stripped upper I had for it, they replaced it as a matched set. No other issue and it has still been my go to rifle since. Just had the barrel tapered for a Q Cherry Bomb. I would absolutely agree Noveske barrels are/were overgassed, but at least there are more options to remedy that nowadays(not an excuse), I just added a .0625 BRT tube.
I had 2 Noveske rifles. Both made while John was at the Helm. One was alright, no issues except a very aggressive use of the welder, and lack of using surefire spacer for the pinned MD, but...the other...
-8moa poi shift with known good can and multiple mounts. Surefire T&Ed and gauged the upper and could not figure out wtf.
-overgassed to the point of malfunction with a surefire 556-212 using even h3 and blue sprinco
-feed ramps shaved brass and snagged cartridges multiple times per mag, bending them like bananas.
- lower was out of spec and would not accept milspec uppers (factory sbr gen 2), DD tried to hand pick me an upper. Gave up after 8 wouldnt fit and they gauged it to be out of spec.
Noveske finally just wrote me a check for that gun and took it back. We cool, but even John era guns had issues, ime
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Certainly not a common experience, but I don't think anyone has ever had everything be perfect.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Certainly not a common experience, but I don't think anyone has ever had everything be perfect.
Yeah, the only people who have never had a product issue are the ones who never sold anything.
Easy to do from the cheap, consumer only seats.
Yeah, the only people who have never had a product issue are the ones who never sold anything.
Easy to do from the cheap, consumer only seats.
Facts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.