View Full Version : Physics question - .357 SIG v. .40
I understand that both cartridges are loaded to the same pressure. Would the 357 have less recoil and less wear on the gun, given it launches a lighter bullet?
The .357 Sig has a higher SAAMI pressure over the 40 S&W. I have found the 357 to have less recoil over the 40. Don't know about the wear issues but I doubt the 357 would have less.
You're right - the .357 SIG has a higher pressure than the .41 or .44 Magnum!
sigmundsauer
11-19-08, 18:12
Slide velocity is usually slower with most .357 SIG rounds vs. .40 and should be easier on the frame as a result. Higher velocity and pressure may wear out the barrel marginally faster, though.
Tim
I understand that both cartridges are loaded to the same pressure. Would the 357 have less recoil and less wear on the gun, given it launches a lighter bullet?
Your initial premiss is incorrect.
SAAMI MAP for .40 S&W is 35,000 psi.
SAAMI MAP for 357 SIG is 40,000 psi.
The 357 tends to generate higher slide velocities than most .40 ammo, but not all. For example, while I was at SIG we did testing that showed the CBP/ICE duty load (a very hot 155gr .40) actually generated higher slide velocities and resulted in faster wear than the typical 357 SIG load used by most (probably all) federal agencies carrying that caliber.
Even in terms of recoil, it's hard to make blanket statements. For example, the 357 SIG caliber Glocks tend to have a lot more muzzle flip than other brands. However, in SIGs and Berettas and S&W M&Ps, the actual recoil/flip is easier to control in 357 than 40. I've proven this many times by taking one frame and two top ends and letting shooters perform a few drills.
The wrench in the works is the blast. Because the 357 SIG produces substantially louder and more forceful muzzle blast, some people develop a flinch very quickly when shooting it. This in turn gets translated by the brain as "recoil" ... which is why some people will tell you they've shot the two side by side and "the 357 had a lot more recoil."
The 357 SIG tends to have a more straight up and down, fast slide movement compared to the .40 S&W which (due to pushing a heavier bullet) generates more torque and thus more twist in the hands.
Your initial premiss is incorrect.
SAAMI MAP for .40 S&W is 35,000 psi.
SAAMI MAP for 357 SIG is 40,000 psi.
I strongly doubt the major ammunition manufacturers load to this level though.
Having said that, I have no idea where .40 S&W loads come in at WRT their SAAMI MAP.
I strongly doubt the major ammunition manufacturers load to this level though.
Based on?
Based on?
Velocity specs from when originally introduced to what the cartridge is loaded to today. For example, Speer GDHP, 4" bbl, 125 grain is loaded to around 1350. If I'm not mistaken, original loads for 125 grain bullets topped 1400.
Doubletap is loaded to higher velocity, but I've always questioned whether or not they are busting MAP. Regardless, I don't place Doubletap in the same league as Speer or Federal.
SingleStacker45
11-19-08, 20:07
I have strugled with the concept of recoil vs physics for some time. While it seems that a lighter bullet should have less recoil actually my experience has been the opposite. I used to load 185 gn 45acp bullets to major power levels as well as shooting factory 115 grain 9mm thinking this is light. After switching to 230 gn bullets and 147 gn in the 9mm and loading to lower speeds to attain the same power level I find the recoil and muzzle flip to be less. I also have found lighter recoil springs to have a impact on reducing felt recoil.
Mule
The spec was always 125 @ 1,350fps from a four inch barrel. Some companies may have achieved higher velocities (Speer has, or at least, a 125 @ 1,375 they sold simultaneously) but only marginally.
Here are some numbers I have lying around from 2000 or so:
Cor-Bon JHP, 115 @ 1,500
Cor-Bon JHP, 125 @ 1,425
Cor-Bon BeeSafe, 91 @ 1,525
Federal Classic FMJ, 125 @ 1,350
Federal Premium JHP, 125 @ 1,350
Federal Tactical THP, 125 @ 1,350
Federal BallistiClean, 100 @ 1,360
PMC FMJ/FP, 124 @ 1,350
PMC Starfire SFHP, 124 @ 1,350
Pro Load Tactical Grade GDHP, 125 @ 1,400
Remington JHP, 125 @ 1,350
Remington JHP Bonded, 125 @ 1,350
Remington Disintegrator, 104 @ 1,400
Speer Lawman TMJ, 125 @ 1,375
Speer Lawman CF-TMJ, 125 @ 1,350
Speer CCI Blazer TMJ, 125 @ 1,300
Speer RHT, 100 @ 1,450
Speer Gold Dot GDHP, 125 @ 1,375
Triton Hi-Vel JHP, 125 @ 1,400
Triton Quick-Shok QSHP, 115 @ 1,450
Triton Quick-Shok QSHP, 135 @ 1,350
UMC MC, 125 @ 1,350
USA FMJ-FN, 125 @ 1,350
Winchester SuperClean JSP, 105 @ 1,370
Winchester Ranger T-Series, 125 @ 1,350
All of the major companies (which have access to the best powders, use consistently superior flash suppressants which reduce velocity by a bit, etc.) were on more or less the exact same page.
I'd be very hard pressed to buy carry/duty ammo from anyone but the Big Three: ATK (Federal & Speer), Remington, & Winchester. They spend more on QC than smaller companies make in a year.
I have strugled with the concept of recoil vs physics for some time. While it seems that a lighter bullet should have less recoil actually my experience has been the opposite. I used to load 185 gn 45acp bullets to major power levels as well as shooting factory 115 grain 9mm thinking this is light. After switching to 230 gn bullets and 147 gn in the 9mm and loading to lower speeds to attain the same power level I find the recoil and muzzle flip to be less. I also have found lighter recoil springs to have a impact on reducing felt recoil.
If you push two bullets to the same speed, the lighter bullet has less felt recoil.
If you push two bullets to the same pressure level or same power factor, the heavier bullet will have less felt recoil.
Alaskapopo
11-19-08, 22:20
Velocity specs from when originally introduced to what the cartridge is loaded to today. For example, Speer GDHP, 4" bbl, 125 grain is loaded to around 1350. If I'm not mistaken, original loads for 125 grain bullets topped 1400.
Doubletap is loaded to higher velocity, but I've always questioned whether or not they are busting MAP. Regardless, I don't place Doubletap in the same league as Speer or Federal.
The original load for the 357 sig was 1350 fps with a 125 grain bullet in a 3.5 inch barrel.
In actual chrono testing I found most loads went around 1350 to 1380 in my former Sig 229 and 1400 to 1450 in my former Glock 31. I used to own 8 different 357 sig pistols. Now I see little point in the round and would rather use a 9x19 or a 45 acp.
Pat
The original load for the 357 sig was 1350 fps with a 125 grain bullet in a 3.5 inch barrel.
Where do you get that information from, specifically the barrel length? The SAAMI spec has always been for a 4" barrel, to the best of my knowledge. The cartridge was designed around the SIG P229 which has a 3.86" barrel.
Alaskapopo
11-19-08, 23:12
Where do you get that information from, specifically the barrel length? The SAAMI spec has always been for a 4" barrel, to the best of my knowledge. The cartridge was designed around the SIG P229 which has a 3.86" barrel.
It was from memory and could be wrong. But I was a big believer in the 357 sig when it came out. I read up on it and bought a lot of them. I did chrono several loads during that time. Come to think of it your probably right on about it being a 4 inch and not a 3.5 inch barrel.
My first 357 sig was the 229.
Pat
Velocity specs from when originally introduced to what the cartridge is loaded to today. For example, Speer GDHP, 4" bbl, 125 grain is loaded to around 1350. If I'm not mistaken, original loads for 125 grain bullets topped 1400.
Doubletap is loaded to higher velocity, but I've always questioned whether or not they are busting MAP. Regardless, I don't place Doubletap in the same league as Speer or Federal.
not according to my info. I bought the 357SIG in a SIG P229 the year it was introduced and Federal ammo at that time was loaded to 1350 fps.
fwiw, I've never seen any 357SIG ammo reach it's advertised speed from my P229...
.357sigger
11-20-08, 13:24
I shoot .357 sig waay better than I shoot .40 :)
not according to my info. I bought the 357SIG in a SIG P229 the year it was introduced and Federal ammo at that time was loaded to 1350 fps.
fwiw, I've never seen any 357SIG ammo reach it's advertised speed from my P229...
I stand corrected, I was going off memory.
BTW, what velocities are you getting?
sigmundsauer
11-21-08, 16:01
I stand corrected, I was going off memory.
BTW, what velocities are you getting?
Here's some chrono data from my .357 SIG P229R that I once owned. Still have 450 rounds of Speer GDHP that I'll likely never shoot.
Tim
Chronygraphy: 20060703
74 degrees, 300 ft, sunny, chrono at 10 ft., 10 round strings (unless otherwise stated)
Pistols:
HK P2000 V2 (LEM) 9mm
SIG P226 Navy 9mm
SIG P229R DAK .357 SIG/.40 S&W
P2000 V2, Win 124 NATO
lo 1140
hi 1165
avg 1152
es 25
sd 9
P2000 V2, Fed 124 FMJ Match +P+
lo 1143
hi 1190
avg 1171
es 47
sd 15
P226 Navy, Win 124 NATO
lo 1150
hi 1191
avg 1164
es 40
sd 12
P226 Navy, Fed 124 FMJ +P+
lo 1170
hi 1204
avg 1188
es 35
sd 13
P229R DAK, Fed AE 125 FMJ
lo 1328
hi 1356
avg 1340
es 28
sd 8
P229R DAK, Speer 125 GDHP, 53918 reclassified current generation
lo 1333
hi 1366
avg 1348
es 33
sd 11
P229R DAK, Speer 125 GDHP, 23918 first generation
lo 1347
hi 1396
avg 1366
es 49
sd 18
P229R DAK, Triton 125 XTP
lo1324
hi 1365
avg 1351
es 42
sd 14
P229R DAK, Win WB 165 FMJ (9 rounds)
lo 1002
hi 1024
avg 1015
es 22
sd N/A
P229R DAK, Speer 180 GDHP, String 1, (9 rounds)
lo 957
hi 1000
avg 981
es 43
sd N/A
P229R DAK, Speer 180 GDHP, String 2
lo 968
hi 1000
avg 985
es 32
sd 9
P229R DAK, Speer 165 GDHP (8 rounds)
lo 1092
hi 1114
avg 1099
es 22
sd 8
Back in 1998 I got an avg of 1370 fps from a G32 w Speer 125 GD.
Shooting my M&P w the 40/357 bbls, the 357 seems the better handling of the two. Recoil seems about the same compared to 180 loads, less compared to full power 155/165 loads. Does seem to torque less in my hand than w any of the 40s too.
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