View Full Version : .357 Magnum. Does it deserve its reputation?
I've known several older cops who say how great .357 magnum was from a service revolver. Some say it was the 125 gr SJHP load, others because of earlier 158 gr loads.
My contention is its SJHP performance at the time was usually being compared with .38 special SWC, LRN, and SWCHP but also 9mm ball and .45 ball.
I also think that the sound and blast had a slight psychological effect on the person shot or shot at.
And compared to those others I mentioned it probably be would slightly more effective in some scenarios.
But does it deserve the reputation it has among many who witnessed its performance in the past?
Yes and no.
The velocity was high enough to fairly reliably expand with the HP and SP designs of the time. Testing in water, as it was then, will show the bullet to open at lower velocity, like .38, but in tissue it doesn't. Observed performance at the time was better, and deserved, again at that time.
This is also where many took what was observed, came to the wrong conclusion and became velocity and "shock" junkies.
Modern testing makes bullets that perform more reliably, at a wide range of velocities, and also don't clog up the HP through clothing. Currently there are only small differences in service caliber handgun terminal ballistics.
Psychological effects do occur. The problem is that you cannot predict when it will or will not. So I would choose lower recoil, higher capacity, and keeping more night vision over a fire breathing magnum.
My recollection was; the .357 125 gr JHP had THE highest "one shot stop" rating with COM hit, of any handgun cartridge (like 96% from memory), taken from actual/documented shootings by Marshall & Sanow,
Rather or not their reported data was factual, I have no clue- but it was taken as gospel in the day.
I always found THAT cartridge from a 4" or less barrel to be a MAJOR PITA to shoot; muzzle blast and recoil were substantial for something I was trying to shoot "accurately and RAPIDLY'.
Since I intended to fire at least twice, if the need arose, I figured that 2 controllable 9mm or .45 ACP- rated at a mere 92%, had a combined stopping percentage of 184%.
Comfortable with that.
Personally, I'm not one to place much faith in one-shot stop indexes. They tend to have their share of flaws.
.357 magnum has some legitimate claim to increased terminal performance; DocGKR has noted that wounding effects from temporary cavitation with an expanding projectile of such size tends to start around 1600 FPS. At 1900 FPS it is fairly severe-think M1 carbine.
1600+ FPS is doable with a hot .357 magnum loading, though temp cavity wounding is also dependent on expansion, which in turn reduces penetration. I also imagine that such rounds are not generally pleasant to shoot.
In addition, most any service caliber hollowpoint is capable of causing temporary cavitation damage in inflexible structures (e.g. liver, pancreas), though these organs tend to be less immediately vital. A larger temporary cavity is furthermore more readily capable of temporarily disabling nerves through stretch/blunt trauma...not something to be relied upon, obviously.
All that said, most .357 magnum likely either doesn't or barely meets the threshold needed to cause temp cavity damage to flexible tissue. In my mind the modest enhancement from temporary cavity effects does not outweigh the reduced recoil of a 9mm nor the significantly larger crush cavity seen with .45.
IMHO the "secret" to the .357's legendary status is the semi-jacketed HP, not so much any temporary stretch cavity. That exposed lead, especially at 1400fps velocities, will spin off fragments that create their own wound paths, while the core continues to penetrate deeper. Now those fragments aren't large per se, and don't penetrate deeply on their own, but they can create a rather significant secondary wounding mechanism.
40 years ago the answer was 100% yes.
Today the answer is no.
Today it has been down loaded, but even more important with FBI setting test criteria for handgun ammo. all ammo now functions within less than 10% of all other ammo.
My recollection was; the .357 125 gr JHP had THE highest "one shot stop" rating with COM hit, of any handgun cartridge (like 96% from memory), taken from actual/documented shootings by Marshall & Sanow,
Rather or not their reported data was factual, I have no clue- but it was taken as gospel in the day.
They have been long discredited both on their methodology and the credibility of their data.
The biggest problem with Marshall and Sanow's Stopping Power and one-shot stop statistics is that by their own admission they exclude EVERY situation where one or more rounds were fired and a person was not stopped so more rounds had to be fired.
Their formula claims to calculate one-shot stops but is grossly flawed because it deliberately excludes the most common one-shot failures--all situations where one shot is fired and it fails to stop someone so additional shots need to be fired.
Their one shot stop numbers are meaningless because they do not factor situations when one shot was not enough to stop someone and more shots had to be fired.
Successes are meaningless unless you factor in failures. And Marshall & Sanow's numbers do not factor in a major number of failures, therefore they have no meaning.
Further, many agencies who Marshall and Sanow claim to have gotten their shootings from have come forward and said that not only did they not provide any information to Marshall & Sanow, and that the shootings that Marshall and Sanow have attributed to them do not match any of the shootings that they have on record.
Nah.
A .357 Magnum makes the same hole in a major vessel that a .38 spl or a 9mm makes. Same damage, same result.
Handgun calibers, all of them, including .357 mag, show iffy expansion. Most don't deform significantly, and most go right on through and exit. None go fast enough to do the kind of damage that a rifle bullet will do, e.g. turn bone fragments into secondary projectiles.
ToddK has it right. All the major calibers do the same thing.
Nah.
A .357 Magnum makes the same hole in a major vessel that a .38 spl or a 9mm makes. Same damage, same result.
Handgun calibers, all of them, including .357 mag, show iffy expansion. Most don't deform significantly, and most go right on through and exit. None go fast enough to do the kind of damage that a rifle bullet will do, e.g. turn bone fragments into secondary projectiles.
ToddK has it right. All the major calibers do the same thing.So in your mind the 38 special 158g loading most police used at the time was equally effective to the 357 performance loadings?
You guys are getting a far different conclusion from the FBI reports than I am.
What I am reading is that with modern bullets the small difference between 9 mm for performance and hotter stuff is not worth the trade-off for reduced capacity and more recoil. Its a good tradeoff, makes sense, NOW.
That was not true in the 70s and even early 80s.
Nor do they say that full power 10 millimeter or 357 has the same cavity / damage as smaller cartridges. They clearly have larger and or more penetration.
I ran 357 much hotter than the fbi tests. Most of us 10mm shooter run significantly hotter than what the FBI and industry considers the standard 10 mm reloading now.
I'm not advocating to run those cartridges now, just to not over interpret the data to say that they're the same performance.
There is no "you guys", Uni-Vibe is a one man anti HP and anti FBI testing band. Or a troll.
My comments are clearly about modern service caliber HP's being very close in terminal performance.
I agree modern hollowpoints since the FBI got into testing all function about the same. The difference between one modern bullet and an other WILL NOT make a difference in a gun fight.
You will win a gun fight based on tactics, shot placement and proper use of cover. I have won many a gun fight using 9mm ball ammo. So don't worry about it.
.357 mag back in the day was king of the hill. Those facts no longer hold true.
In addition to the above that I said will win gun fights, I also believe the more times your pistol will go bang before you have to reload. Might matter more, to your winning. Than is you are using 9mm, 40 S&W, etc.
Agree with a few of the posters here. "Back in the day" it took sheer velocity to accomplish what modern bullet technology can do today, i.e. adequate expansion with adequate penetration. Federal HST or Speer Gold Dots are good examples of what I'm talking about. Back in the 80's or earlier (even as late as the early to mid 90's) it took screaming velocity to achieve the performance that we now see with non-obscene speed using superior bullet construction.
I agree modern hollowpoints since the FBI got into testing all function about the same. The difference between one modern bullet and an other WILL NOT make a difference in a gun fight.
You will win a gun fight based on tactics, shot placement and proper use of cover. I have won many a gun fight using 9mm ball ammo. So don't worry about it.
.357 mag back in the day was king of the hill. Those facts no longer hold true.
In addition to the above that I said will win gun fights, I also believe the more times your pistol will go bang before you have to reload. Might matter more, to your winning. Than is you are using 9mm, 40 S&W, etc.
So true. Yoni learned this lesson from fighting in the desert. I learned the same thing by studying forensic data from crimes.
Everybody that disagrees with us learned their lessons from internet lore, bullet ads, gel testing, FBI protocols, anecdotes, and gun writers.
Who ya gonna believe? Bullets are bullets.
SeriousStudent
02-18-20, 21:45
So true. Yoni learned this lesson from fighting in the desert. I learned the same thing by studying forensic data from crimes.
Everybody that disagrees with us learned their lessons from internet lore, bullet ads, gel testing, FBI protocols, anecdotes, and gun writers.
Who ya gonna believe? Bullets are bullets.
That's a bold statement about people who disagree with you. It's also very wrong.
You know a lot more about ballistics than Doctor Gary Roberts?
You really, really, really need to knock this crap off. Or take it someplace else.
Last warning. The next time you drop one of these turds of wisdom, you're gone.
I want to be clear, I am NOT endorsing 9mm ball as the best round to use in a gun fight.
We were forced to carry 9mm ball by politics, until a team member shot a terrorist and the round went through and through and traveled on and hit a 8 month pregnant woman in the stomach killing the baby. The next day we were authorized to go to hollowpoints.
I currently carry in my 9mms 124 +P+ rounds.
When I go to synagogue, I carry 101 rounds with me. 3 mags are full of the 124 +P+ rounds. The last 2 mags for NATO ball ammo.
If I go through 3 mags and the fight is still on then I am assuming the bad guys will be behind cover, so I want hot ball to try and push through cover. For at this point in a fight a hit is a hit.
I will in the future go out and test the Lehigh 65 grain fluted 9mm +P 9mm. If it puts down hogs for me like it has been reported by others. Then this will be my go to 9mm round.
Okay. So it was excellent performance with the hollow points available in its day compared to the "others". (Fmj .32, .380, 9mm, .45, .38 super, and .38 special swc/rn/sjhp)
But now the "others" (9mm and other service calibers) have bullets available that provide similar / same performance at lower velocities.
Makes sense to me.
Okay. So it was excellent performance with the hollow points available in its day compared to the "others". (Fmj .32, .380, 9mm, .45, .38 super, and .38 special swc/rn/sjhp)
But now the "others" (9mm and other service calibers) have bullets available that provide similar / same performance at lower velocities.
Makes sense to me.
Pretty much sums it up.
I agree with others that it got it's reputation back in the day where it was one of the few "controllable" handgun rounds that had enough velocity and weight to give good expansion and penetration. Add in the fact that with revolver ammo, you could design the bullet to more likely open up without worrying about it having to feed in a semi auto.
I also do believe muzzle blast plays a role as well. Not only psychologically but physically as well when it come to contact range shots. Lot's of cops and citizens get in gunfights/shootings at grappling range. From my experience with handgun suicides the duty calibers just drill a hole through the head. I have seen suicides with 357 magnum on several occasions where it removed large chunks of the head. Several looked far more like a rifle or shotgun suicide.
I wasn't around when 357 was considered king of one shot stops. Ive heard that 38 and 357 were more potent back then and today they're downloaded. Not sure how true that is but looking at stuff from Underwood I can see how 357 could have been viewed as the ultimate one shot stop. Underwood's self defense ammo is around 800ft-lbs of energy in both 125 and 158
Well, when I shoot things with one of my wheel guns loaded up with a .357 versus a .38, I can tell the difference of the impact....lol, and in my hand. Sometimes these days, I think people get too caught up in stats about one round versus another. Usually, bigger is better, but with most humans, getting shot at all tends to make us go "ouch", and find some cover.
Dave James
02-25-20, 09:04
When we moved to the mag round the Sherriff was at lest smart he bypassed the 125's and went straight to the 145 grain Silvertip Winchester, we had been using the old "Highway" rounds, which where nothing more then hot 38spl's loaded with the still older 200 grain round nose. One thing to remember about those stat's on usage, most agencies, that issued the 357 chambered revolvers mandated 38 spl +P 125's
The issue round for my Sheriffs Depart., was the 125 grn. HP mag round. You were allowed to carry what ever you wanted in your revolver, 99% stayed with the 125grn, because we had good luck with it. While the city next to us was using 38 special hollowpoints and they didn't have as good a track record.
But all that is old history, not even relevant to today.
MontanaMarine
02-27-20, 23:21
In my opinion, the reputation is well deserved.
Today, the limited ammo onboard a revolver is not a sensible choice for duty weapons, or arguably, personal carry. But the 357 Mag, with a SJHP at 1400-1600 fps from 4" to 6" revolvers is still very potent.
Back when revolvers dominated law enforcement, expanding bullets for 38Spl and autos were not as advanced as today, but the 125gr SJHP at 4" or 6" was very lethal, and still is. All that exposed lead is of no consequence in a revolver, and really let it open up at 357 Mag velocities.
I've known several older cops who say how great .357 magnum was from a service revolver. Some say it was the 125 gr SJHP load, others because of earlier 158 gr loads.
My contention is its SJHP performance at the time was usually being compared with .38 special SWC, LRN, and SWCHP but also 9mm ball and .45 ball.
I also think that the sound and blast had a slight psychological effect on the person shot or shot at.
And compared to those others I mentioned it probably be would slightly more effective in some scenarios.
But does it deserve the reputation it has among many who witnessed its performance in the past?
Yes. People weren't so fat back then. The lightning stops were far more common than the officer Coates failures. It would expand and fragment in 125gr format from 4-6" revolvers, and provide significant wounding in the typical torso/upper thoracic hit.
I 100% disagree with the idea that in non .357 mag, everyone was using ball ammo. In my department every one ran HP in all guns. but the vice and narcs that were dumb enough to stick with the department issue Walther ppk's that only fed ball ammo.
I 100% disagree with the idea that in non .357 mag, everyone was using ball ammo. In my department every one ran HP in all guns. but the vice and narcs that were dumb enough to stick with the department issue Walther ppk's that only fed ball ammo.
Any shootings with the non-.357 guns?
How did they do?
I never cared for PP's in .380 because they are no fun to shoot. I haven't fired one in 7.65mm but I'm sure it would be much more pleasant.
We had a few shootings with other calibers, but based on memory I think the 357 mag had a bunch more 1 shot stops. Now the unknown is was it because it was so much easier to shoot the 9mm or 45acp., that the deputy was able to get more rounds off. But the 357 mags had such recoil that the deputy shot once and then by the time they recovered from recoil the suspect was down.
I stand by what I have always said the caliber of your handgun nor the ammo that is in it, will not determine the outcome of your gun fight.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-ballistics-gel-works/
I stole this from the My Retro LaFrance M16k Clone Project thread.
It get very interesting 5 minute mark to 10 minute about the research Federal has done on bullets.
Why velocity today doesn't matter that much. Bottom line all the calibers are made to do about the same thing.
We had a few shootings with other calibers, but based on memory I think the 357 mag had a bunch more 1 shot stops. Now the unknown is was it because it was so much easier to shoot the 9mm or 45acp., that the deputy was able to get more rounds off. But the 357 mags had such recoil that the deputy shot once and then by the time they recovered from recoil the suspect was down.
I stand by what I have always said the caliber of your handgun nor the ammo that is in it, will not determine the outcome of your gun fight.
A great read and still relevant:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA:
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
Back when revolvers ruled the world and the 357 was king, it wasn't just about round nosed (FMJ or lead) versus hollow points. It was also about semi-wadcutters which are very efficent at killing and did so more consistently than the hollow points of the day. The semi-wadcutter may not create as much tissue stretching on impact as a hollow point does when it expands, but it does a good job destroying tissue along its wound path. Back that up with the velocities the 357 Magnum is capable of and you have a very effective round.
Whether the bullet is a hollow point or a semi-wadcutter, velocity does make a difference. I've seen critters hit with a 38 Special and a 357 Magnum. Using identical bullets, the higher impact velocity of the 357 caused greater tissue destruction. The 357 caused greater tissue destruction than the 9mm or 45 ACP. The 357 also has greater penetration.
Yes, the 357 lives up to its reputation for terminal performance. It also lives up to its reputation for its tremendous muzzle blast, excessive recoil, difficulty to control in rapid fire and when chambered in the King of Revolvers, the massive Smith & Wesson N frame, very heavy.
did someone say velocity didn't matter as much? That is simply not true and you won't beat physics where mass and velocity DO matter.
modern 357 is downloaded, 1325-1400 is standard today but in the 30s-60s reloading and ballistics manuals, it's avg was 1550 using 2400 and some hotter with psi 35k. That 200 fps faster with 158gr absolutely has significant merit. Barrel length for this 8" with manuals showing less than 50fps slower out 6" barrels. Initially developed to go through heavier barriers like car doors, crude attempts at body armor and the like. To dismiss or consider the 357 not adequate today as compared to 9s etc is absurd. Hell, even compared to 10mm it's right there and 10mm only really begins to outclass in downrange energy when drop to 125gr compared to higher gr 10mm. Sure bullet type matters but its all relative today.
Many years ago I shot a deer with a 160 grain soft point at 20 yards with a hot .357 load. Zero expansion. In one side and out the other at .357. If I ever get the chance again it will be with something hollow point in the 145 range.
kwg
... mass and velocity DO matter.
... downrange energy...
Modern terminal ballistics is focused on the damage a bullet does to the target, not energy numbers.
Energy is the ability to do work. It must be usefully expended for the desired effect rather than as heat. Energy is the antecedent of effect rather than its measure.
Modern terminal ballistics is focused on the damage a bullet does to the target, not energy numbers.
and.....
this thread is full on retarded with some of the comments and intimations. I can get 'modern terminal ballistics' and still have that energy with a proper 357 load.
"still have that energy" makes it sound like you believe the "energy" is doing something to the target. I do not believe that is true. A handgun bullet crushes/cuts tissue as it passes through. An expanded HP crushes more than a RN bullet, and it needs enough penetration to get through vital tissue. Beyond that (until you get into rifle velocity) more energy can only make the bullet expand slightly larger and/or penetration to be deeper. Neither offers any significant improvement in terminal performance unless more penetration is needed for larger animals.
Google “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” for a good place to start if you are interested.
and.....
this thread is full on retarded with some of the comments and intimations. I can get 'modern terminal ballistics' and still have that energy with a proper 357 load.
What does that actually mean? If a modern .357 JHP goes to a similar depth and make the same sized whole on expansion as a 9mm and both equally reliable for doing it, what is the "energy" you speak of and what is it achieving? Educate the "retards" here maybe cuz you're obviously so well informed on the topic...
"still have that energy" makes it sound like you believe the "energy" is doing something to the target. I do not believe that is true. A handgun bullet crushes/cuts tissue as it passes through. An expanded HP crushes more than a RN bullet, and it needs enough penetration to get through vital tissue. Beyond that (until you get into rifle velocity) more energy can only make the bullet expand slightly larger and/or penetration to be deeper. Neither offers any significant improvement in terminal performance unless more penetration is needed for larger animals.
Google “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” for a good place to start if you are interested.
Probably believes in knock down power too. URL to that seminal doc everyone should read before calling people retards:
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
Straight Shooter
11-22-20, 18:19
"Further, it appears that many people are predisposed to fall down when shot. This phenomenon is independent of caliber, bullet, or hit location, and is beyond the control of the shooter. It can only be proven in the act, not predicted. It requires only two factors to be effected: a shot and cognition of being shot by the target. Lacking either one, people are not at all predisposed to fall down and don’t. Given this predisposition, the choice of caliber and bullet is essentially irrelevant. People largely fall down when shot, and the apparent predisposition to do so exists with equal force among the good guys as among the bad. The causative factors are most likely psychological in origin. Thousands of books, movies and television shows have educated the general population that when shot, one is supposed to fall down. 38 He defines a one shot stop as one in which the subject dropped, gave up, or did not run more than 10 feet."
I found this part to be very interesting.
FlyingHunter
11-27-20, 18:52
Absolutely one shot stop. I have personal experience. I was a young lad and owned a 4" GP100 357 Magnum. I believe I was tactically planning to engage an old can, pulled the trigger, OMG forgot my ear pro, and immediately was on a knee and out of the fight.
It was as they say...a one shot stopper.
If .357 is grouped with the other "duty cartridges" a similar question can be asked of them.
Have JHP's (A) actually improved "stopping power" or are they (B) better at reducing perforation of bodies, increasing perforation of barriers, and reducing survivability? (Or C, both)
Perforating barriers can be good, bad, or inconsequential.
I contend that if a bad guy is of mind to fight to the death a JHP does C. If not, B.
I also think the overwhelming majority of unknown-assailant, non-Police defensive shootings fall into the "bad guy not of fight to the death mindset."
My belief is that there is lots of confirmation bias in AAR's regarding pistol bullet performance.
Colt Carson
12-06-20, 22:09
I don’t believe the energy numbers listed in ballistics charts are real world accurate. They seem to favor velocity over bullet weight. A typical 9mm and .45acp have similar energy on paper, but the .45 has noticeably more recoil when shot. More recoil on the pistol equals more energy on target in my opinion. Now I will say that shooting a .357 magnum out of a carbine vs a revolver puts it in a different league.
It's not about energy, it's about energy transfer to the threat and damage to tissue and organs. That still doesn't guarantee the threat will stop or even slow down.
We had some bean counters at our agency who touted the 9mm +P+ cartridge, because of the mathematical energy numbers. None of the bean counters worked in the field long enough to understand how the cartridge actually performed. None of the bean counters wanted to have a conversation with field personnel who actually saw people shot with the cartridge.
Raw data concerning performance in the field is the only math I put any weight on. When conversing about a defensive cartridge, performance in the field far outweighs mathematically energy numbers and theories about how a cartridge "should" perform in the field.
I don’t believe the energy numbers listed in ballistics charts are real world accurate. They seem to favor velocity over bullet weight. Whether those numbers are real-world relevant to terminal effect is up for debate. However, whether they are real world accurate is not. Energy numbers favor velocity, because energy increases exponentially with velocity, but linearly with mass. There have been many attempts to claim relevance of other numbers, such as as momentum or knockout factor. This is done by well-meaning dudes that are capable of basic arithmetic, but have no real understanding of physics. These people have a tendency to insert their own biases and anecdotes.
One area where the 357 shines over other duty calibers is penetration. However extra penetration is not wanted most of the time. Most self defense or duty 357 ammo now a days is made to meet FBI criteria which means they have to keep penetration down. So Speer Gold Dot 135 grain 357 are a little slow but expands to .6 and penetrates 16 inches (Im using generalities, not actual numbers) which isnt much different than 9mm loads. But if you take full house hunting rounds like a Hornday XTP you get a bit less expansion and a bunch more penetration.
Im betting that the 158 grain loads from years ago fall more in line with the hunting loads of today. Moderate expansion and a shit load of penetration. Compare that to the light weight hollow point 38s and 9mms of the time and you are going to to a marked improvement in performance shooting through limbs and at odd angles.
A couple guys on my squad got into a shooting over the summer with a woman. Long story short my buddy shot this chick in the shoulder. she had a full side profile to him so the bullet is going in the outside of the arm towards the chest. Round was a 230 grain +P HST fired from a Glock 21 at a distance of about 10 yards. Bullet hit the humerus right at the top where it starts to go into the shoulder joint. Shattered the bone and completely immobilized her right arm but it had very little penetration after and never made it into the chest cavity. Im betting a full house 158 grain 357 would have penetrated more based on what Ive seen it do animal bones.
One area where the 357 shines over other duty calibers is penetration. However extra penetration is not wanted most of the time. Most self defense or duty 357 ammo now a days is made to meet FBI criteria which means they have to keep penetration down. So Speer Gold Dot 135 grain 357 are a little slow but expands to .6 and penetrates 16 inches (Im using generalities, not actual numbers) which isnt much different than 9mm loads. But if you take full house hunting rounds like a Hornday XTP you get a bit less expansion and a bunch more penetration.
Im betting that the 158 grain loads from years ago fall more in line with the hunting loads of today. Moderate expansion and a shit load of penetration. Compare that to the light weight hollow point 38s and 9mms of the time and you are going to to a marked improvement in performance shooting through limbs and at odd angles.
A couple guys on my squad got into a shooting over the summer with a woman. Long story short my buddy shot this chick in the shoulder. she had a full side profile to him so the bullet is going in the outside of the arm towards the chest. Round was a 230 grain +P HST fired from a Glock 21 at a distance of about 10 yards. Bullet hit the humerus right at the top where it starts to go into the shoulder joint. Shattered the bone and completely immobilized her right arm but it had very little penetration after and never made it into the chest cavity. Im betting a full house 158 grain 357 would have penetrated more based on what Ive seen it do animal bones.
This stuff?
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/357-mag-158-gr-xtp#!/
We had some bean counters at our agency who touted the 9mm +P+ cartridge, because of the mathematical energy numbers. None of the bean counters worked in the field long enough to understand how the cartridge actually performed.
How did it perform?
This stuff?
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/357-mag-158-gr-xtp#!/
Yeah. Or something similar.
This stuff?
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/357-mag-158-gr-xtp#!/
Lucky Gunner tests it expanded to .53 and penetrated 25 inches on average.
Lucky Gunner tests it expanded to .53 and penetrated 25 inches on average.
As you said, less expansion with deep penetration. Good woods/hunting round for medium sized game. Might have to get some for camping/woods use in my wheel gun.
Whether those numbers are real-world relevant to terminal effect is up for debate. However, whether they are real world accurate is not. Energy numbers favor velocity, because energy increases exponentially with velocity, but linearly with mass. There have been many attempts to claim relevance of other numbers, such as as momentum or knockout factor. This is done by well-meaning dudes that are capable of basic arithmetic, but have no real understanding of physics. These people have a tendency to insert their own biases and anecdotes.
For those interested the energy formula is
velocity fps² × bullet weight grains / 450,240
For shotguns, there are 7,000 grains in a pound so a 1oz slug is 437.5gr.
How did it perform?
Field personnel were expecting the projectiles to expand and remain inside the body and it was not happening like office personnel told them it would. They were also expecting faster incapacitation.
I was expecting to see more internal tissue damage at an autopsy. The entrance wound and exit wound through the heart were the same size; it was not what I was expecting.
I don’t believe the energy numbers listed in ballistics charts are real world accurate. They seem to favor velocity over bullet weight. A typical 9mm and .45acp have similar energy on paper, but the .45 has noticeably more recoil when shot. More recoil on the pistol equals more energy on target in my opinion. Now I will say that shooting a .357 magnum out of a carbine vs a revolver puts it in a different league.From a physics perspective you are confusing force with energy.
Force is mass times acceleration, which for pistol purposes you can conflate to velocity.
Energy is 1/2 MV squared, so yes velocity does favorite significantly
Transferred energy, energy dump, etc is the fuzzy space that will be argued about forever.
Meanwhile the FBI position tends to be more about penetration over everything else.
But it is also implied that for a given penetration the one with more energy produces more damage.
That's why rifles produce more damage than pistols despite much smaller slash slider projectiles.
357 is kind of in between the two. The 357 that does not penetrate much, yes would not be that effective. But a 357/10mm that penetrates the same as the 9mm but with half again more velocity will do more damage.
The main argument is: it's better to have sufficient penetration with less recoil and faster follow up shots than it is to have similar penetration plus higher energy with less follow-up / more recoil
From a physics perspective you are confusing force with energy.
Force is mass times acceleration, which for pistol purposes you can conflate to velocity.
Energy is 1/2 MV squared, so yes velocity does favorite significantly
Transferred energy, energy dump, etc is the fuzzy space that will be argued about forever.
Meanwhile the FBI position tends to be more about penetration over everything else.
But it is also implied that for a given penetration the one with more energy produces more damage.
That's why rifles produce more damage than pistols despite much smaller slash slider projectiles.
357 is kind of in between the two. The 357 that does not penetrate much, yes would not be that effective. But a 357/10mm that penetrates the same as the 9mm but with half again more velocity will do more damage.
The main argument is: it's better to have sufficient penetration with less recoil and faster follow up shots than it is to have similar penetration plus higher energy with less follow-up / more recoil
I feel like this brings us back full circle of a sorts: If you're using a .357 designed for deeper penetration, that's one effect, if you're using a modern JHP, designed to perform based on those FBI protocols, you get essentially the same, or very similar perm wound track, approx same penetration, approx same expansion, and likely same responses, which seems to be the feedback from the wild too.
Note I'm using .357 not .357/10mm as you have. 10mm would be more in line with .40 I'd expect in terms of expansion, but the terminal ballistics while slightly better than 9mm/357 due slightly larger hole, does not apparently do so to justify the increased recoil, lower capacity, etc.
None of them apparently, at typical velocities of duty loads, capable of creating perm would tracks larger then their own expansion size, and thus unless they strike something that involuntary shuts a person down, surprisingly similar in their physiological effects, which is to say generally poor man stoppers.
I feel like this brings us back full circle of a sorts: If you're using a .357 designed for deeper penetration, that's one effect, if you're using a modern JHP, designed to perform based on those FBI protocols, you get essentially the same, or very similar perm wound track, approx same penetration, approx same expansion, and likely same responses, which seems to be the feedback from the wild too.
Note I'm using .357 not .357/10mm as you have. 10mm would be more in line with .40 I'd expect in terms of expansion, but the terminal ballistics while slightly better than 9mm/357 due slightly larger hole, does not apparently do so to justify the increased recoil, lower capacity, etc.
None of them apparently, at typical velocities of duty loads, capable of creating perm would tracks larger then their own expansion size, and thus unless they strike something that involuntary shuts a person down, surprisingly similar in their physiological effects, which is to say generally poor man stoppers.
Another thing to think about when discussing these duty caliber loadings.... (not countering your post, more following up on it) Yes a 40 does do more damage than a 9mm, yet they are considered equals when it comes to stopping a threat according to terminal ballistic researchers. That's because the FBI/Wounding research people are not saying the 40 doesnt do more damage, it does. But it doesnt do enough more damage to make it any better at stopping a threat. We all know that duty handguns dont cause SIGNIFICANT wounding outside of their wound track. Therefore a 10mm hole through the heart/lung/liver etc, is no different than a 9mm hole through them.
So when comparing a 357 to 9mm or a 10mm to a 40, the more powerful cartridges probably do offer more wounding outside of the wound channel but that extra wounding is going to be basically bruising or slight tearing, which isnt going to alter the outcome of a fight.
One of my local trauma centers had an ER doctor who was a big gun nerd like us. Ive had a few good conversations with him about terminal ballistics when I came in with a GSW victim. Unfortunately he moved a few years ago.
Another issue to consider about a duty pistol cartridge is that it is not selected solely for performance against a human attacker. The cartridge is also expected to meet certain criteria for penetrating intermediate targets, such as auto glass, dry wall and other intermediate targets that can be reasonably expected to be penetrated by a duty pistol cartridge.
Some agencies transitioned from the 9mm cartridge to the .40 S&W, because in general it performed better against intermediate targets.
Field personnel were expecting the projectiles to expand and remain inside the body and it was not happening like office personnel told them it would. They were also expecting faster incapacitation.
I was expecting to see more internal tissue damage at an autopsy. The entrance wound and exit wound through the heart were the same size; it was not what I was expecting.
The shallower penetration probably wouldn't be seen except with a barrier/limb or poor angle shot. The FBI 12" minimum is for the worst case, not the average.
I think the problem is that we expect some kind of linear "energy-power-caliber" increase that just doesn't exist in handgun calibers. Up to the point where temporary cavitation begins a bullet simply doesn't do much damage.
Field personnel were expecting the projectiles to expand and remain inside the body and it was not happening like office personnel told them it would. They were also expecting faster incapacitation.
I was expecting to see more internal tissue damage at an autopsy. The entrance wound and exit wound through the heart were the same size; it was not what I was expecting.
If it was Ranger T 127 gr +p+ it has a habit of only partially expanding or not at all through fabric. The more fabric the more it clogs and less likely to open up.
An unexpanded 127 gr 9mm bullet at 1275-1300 fps from a Glock 17 is going to punch through a lot of stuff / people.
A big agency near me uses it. They went to it after dropping .40 about 2 years ago.
Another issue to consider about a duty pistol cartridge is that it is not selected solely for performance against a human attacker. The cartridge is also expected to meet certain criteria for penetrating intermediate targets, such as auto glass, dry wall and other intermediate targets that can be reasonably expected to be penetrated by a duty pistol cartridge.
Some agencies transitioned from the 9mm cartridge to the .40 S&W, because in general it performed better against intermediate targets.
Barrier performance is certainly a real issue, especially for LE / military.
I think that's what created 9x19, .45 acp, 9mm Browning, 9mm Largo, .357 magnum, .38 acp, 7.63 mauser, 7.62x25, and other service calibers in the first place.
The .32's, .380, .38 S&W Long, Webley calibers and similar were enough to kill / stop a guy generally. But add heavy clothing, military clothing and gear, distance, cover, etc. And the armies and police of the world had a need for more penetrative power from their pistols and revolvers.
Then police especially learned too much penetration capability can be a bad thing and hollow points were developed to prevent that and damage more tissue at the same time.
Does that extra tissue damage really "stop" a bad guy faster? "You be the judge". Probably will kill faster.
Controlling recoil and getting multiple good hits with "enough" penetration quickly is the way.
Another issue to consider about a duty pistol cartridge is that it is not selected solely for performance against a human attacker. The cartridge is also expected to meet certain criteria for penetrating intermediate targets, such as auto glass, dry wall and other intermediate targets that can be reasonably expected to be penetrated by a duty pistol cartridge.
Some agencies transitioned from the 9mm cartridge to the .40 S&W, because in general it performed better against intermediate targets.
My understanding is state troopers adopted/kept .357 Sig or .40 due to superior intermediate barrier performance being they have a much higher likelihood of having a vehicle to shoot into.
If it was Ranger T 127 gr +p+ it has a habit of only partially expanding or not at all through fabric. The more fabric the more it clogs and less likely to open up.
An unexpanded 127 gr 9mm bullet at 1275-1300 fps from a Glock 17 is going to punch through a lot of stuff / people.
A big agency near me uses it. They went to it after dropping .40 about 2 years ago.
Even though it clogs up going through fabrics? FBI protocol includes performing reliably through heavy fabrics. Unless the projectile designed for +9+ velocity, vs pushing a projectile designed for normal velocity to +P+ velocity, that often results in early expansion and sub par terminal performance.
More recoil, same, or even inferior, terminal performance from +P+ projectile in modern JHP designs is my understanding.
If it was Ranger T 127 gr +p+ it has a habit of only partially expanding or not at all through fabric. The more fabric the more it clogs and less likely to open up.
An unexpanded 127 gr 9mm bullet at 1275-1300 fps from a Glock 17 is going to punch through a lot of stuff / people.
A big agency near me uses it. They went to it after dropping .40 about 2 years ago.
The ammunition was 115g +P+. An ammunition manufacturer suggested transitioning to a 127g +P cartridge they had just developed. That did not happen, then a few years later the agency transitioned to .40 S&W.
The ammunition was 115g +P+. An ammunition manufacturer suggested transitioning to a 127g +P cartridge they had just developed. That did not happen, then a few years later the agency transitioned to .40 S&W.
Ok. An unexpanded 115 gr +p+ at 1300 fps from a G17 is also going to punch through a lot of stuff.
The fabled 9BPLE?
The ammunition was 115g +P+. An ammunition manufacturer suggested transitioning to a 127g +P cartridge they had just developed. That did not happen, then a few years later the agency transitioned to .40 S&W.
The fabled 9BPLE?
No. Different manufacturer. The ammunition chronographed at 1,340 fps fired from a pistol with 3-1/2" barrel. The chronograph was 15 feet from the muzzle when I collected the data.
The biggest fans of the cartridge spent very little time working in the field and viewed the cartridge as the equivalent to using a .22-250 on a coyote.
vicious_cb
12-15-20, 13:40
Leave the +P+ loads for sub guns.
Leave the +P+ loads for sub guns.
I agree. The cartridge had a very good track record when fired through the SMG's.
As I think I mentioned a few pages back (too lazy to look at all six previous ones) the .357 shines out of long guns, i.e. lever actions. If you get hot loaded ones, like Underwood for example, a 158gr SJHP will hit around 1800+fps from a 16" Rossi/Puma. Now your standard factory loads like Remington won't go that fast, but they will still do 1700fps. That's a fairly heavy .35 caliber bullet zipping along pretty fast from a < 5lb weapon.
The SJHP's at that velocity also do some pretty cool tricks as far as secondary wounding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeefpzY-M1g&list=UUFfkAZgLwfUIJ1nN4SnsTVw&index=199
I have an EMF 1892 lever action .357 Magnum rifle with 24" barrel. Remington .357 Magnum 125g JSP chronographs at 2125 fps 15 feet from the muzzle.
(I collected up to date data on 01/08/2021).
I have an EMF 1892 lever action .357 Magnum rifle with 24" barrel. Remington .357 Magnum 125g JSP chronographs at 2125 fps 15 feet from the muzzle.
Thats pushing awful close to AK SBR velocity.
Straight Shooter
12-26-20, 08:58
I have an EMF 1892 lever action .357 Magnum rifle with 24" barrel. Remington .357 Magnum 125g JSP chronographs at 2125 fps 15 feet from the muzzle.
I would have bet & lost that somewhere between 16" & 24" it would have slowed down at some point- 2125fps is awesome.
Im studying levers at this time & terribly want one...looking at different brands, but stuck on caliber...357 or .44 Mag.
I would have bet & lost that somewhere between 16" & 24" it would have slowed down at some point- 2125fps is awesome.
Im studying levers at this time & terribly want one...looking at different brands, but stuck on caliber...357 or .44 Mag.
Look at Kentucky Gun Company (KYgunco.com). They have a few .357's actually in stock, 16" as well as 20".
I would have bet & lost that somewhere between 16" & 24" it would have slowed down at some point- 2125fps is awesome.
Im studying levers at this time & terribly want one...looking at different brands, but stuck on caliber...357 or .44 Mag.
Depending on the propellant, you might could win that bet.
Keith
Straight Shooter
12-26-20, 19:46
Look at Kentucky Gun Company (KYgunco.com). They have a few .357's actually in stock, 16" as well as 20".
THANK YOU ABNAK!
I would have bet & lost that somewhere between 16" & 24" it would have slowed down at some point- 2125fps is awesome.
Im studying levers at this time & terribly want one...looking at different brands, but stuck on caliber...357 or .44 Mag.
When I was working on load development, I had loads that posted lower muzzle velocity numbers out of the EMF 1892 rifle than velocities out of my Model 586 revolver. Like the Remington ammunition, some reloads displayed a dramatic increase in muzzle velocity in the lever gun over the revolver. The projectiles, primers and brass were the same. The only thing I changed was propellant.
I believe that powder burn rate makes a huge difference and powders with slower burn rates showed the best performance out of rifle length barrels. I had a few reloads using powder with faster burn rates that showed a decrease in muzzle velocity out of a rifle length barrel when I increased the charge weight.
Tim Sundles at Buffalo Bore shows 125gr. JHP @ 2298 fps and 158gr. JHP @ 2153 fps from an 18" barreled Marlin.
I am pretty sure you could get very close to that with LilGun and maybe one of the 110 powders.
I have not shot ammo that hot through my 357 carbines, but with "standard" 125 or 158 gr ammo, recoil is noticeably lighter than a 30-30.
.357 magnum carbines are pretty amazing, the effect on target pretty much matches a 150 gr 30-30 inside 100-150 yards with less recoil and muzzle blast.
Andy
Straight Shooter
12-27-20, 20:18
So, is there a generally agreed upon barrel length that maximizes the .357 cartridge, and anything beyond that starts to degrade velocity?
Im just such a fan of long barreled lever guns, but not at the expense of velocity.
So, is there a generally agreed upon barrel length that maximizes the .357 cartridge, and anything beyond that starts to degrade velocity?
Im just such a fan of long barreled lever guns, but not at the expense of velocity.I'm in the same place. Following this. Not a fan of of 16in barrel lever guns or any mag tube less than full length of the barrel. Otherwise they just look wrong.
I have 2 older 30-30 and a Marlin 45-70 with a 26 inch barrel and 9+1 of 45-70. I'd love to get a 357 with a 10+1. I'd love a 44 mag too but I think it would be almost as long as the 45-70 and pretty much anything a 44 can do 45-70 can as well
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Straight Shooter
12-27-20, 21:26
I'm in the same place. Following this. Not a fan of of 16in barrel lever guns or any mag tube less than full length of the barrel. Otherwise they just look wrong.
I have 2 older 30-30 and a Marlin 45-70 with a 26 inch barrel and 9+1 of 45-70. I'd love to get a 357 with a 10+1. I'd love a 44 mag too but I think it would be almost as long as the 45-70 and pretty much anything a 44 can do 45-70 can as well
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Amen on that "look". That 26" 45-70 makes me VERY happy.
I'm in the same place. Following this. Not a fan of of 16in barrel lever guns or any mag tube less than full length of the barrel. Otherwise they just look wrong.
I have 2 older 30-30 and a Marlin 45-70 with a 26 inch barrel and 9+1 of 45-70. I'd love to get a 357 with a 10+1. I'd love a 44 mag too but I think it would be almost as long as the 45-70 and pretty much anything a 44 can do 45-70 can as well
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
A 20" 357 Rossi or Browning M92 is 10+1. There are definitely longer barreled 357 magnum rifles and I don't think you will lose or gain appreciable velocity in a 24" vs a 18" barrel shooting 357 Magnum. The longer barrel will be quieter.
It's funny how different people's tastes are. I would not care for a long barreled pistol caliber lever gun, but definitely love the 26" or longer 45-70 and 30-30 lever guns.
Andy
A 20" 357 Rossi or Browning M92 is 10+1. There are definitely longer barreled 357 magnum rifles and I don't think you will lose or gain appreciable velocity in a 24" vs a 18" barrel shooting 357 Magnum. The longer barrel will be quieter.
It's funny how different people's tastes are. I would not care for a long barreled pistol caliber lever gun, but definitely love the 26" or longer 45-70 and 30-30 lever guns.
AndyTo me it's not so much "pistol caliber" since there's 45-70 revolvers! It's more of an overall thing. 357 is close to 30 carbine in a lever gun and I don't care for the lower capacity rifles. They're nice and I understand the reason for them but....meh. I'm not so much conce will velocity from 18 vs 24 as much as I am about the mag tube capacity.
Like I said, I understand the reason behind the short mag tubes but 1. They look wrong and 2. F that I want full length.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Amen on that "look". That 26" 45-70 makes me VERY happy.Shitty pic but 26" tapered octagon barrel. 9+164700
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Straight Shooter
12-28-20, 03:55
Shitty pic but 26" tapered octagon barrel. 9+164700
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Thats how a lever gun SHOULD look! Nice rifle man.
Colt Carson
12-28-20, 06:37
I once shot a couple gallon soup cans with 125 grain 357 magnum. One with 6” revolver, the other with 16” lever gun. The longer barrel produced dramatically more impressive results.
So, is there a generally agreed upon barrel length that maximizes the .357 cartridge, and anything beyond that starts to degrade velocity?
Im just such a fan of long barreled lever guns, but not at the expense of velocity.
I just picked up a Uberti 1873 chambered in .357 Magnum. It has a 20" barrel and my EMF 1892 has a 24" barrel. I plan on chronographing Remington 125g JSP in the 1873 to determine how the muzzle velocity compares to the EMF 1892. The EMF 1892 chronographs at 2,125 fps compared to 1,450 fps published velocity.
Straight Shooter
12-28-20, 13:10
I just picked up a Uberti 1873 chambered in .357 Magnum. It has a 20" barrel and my EMF 1892 has a 24" barrel. I plan on chronographing Remington 125g JSP in the 1873 to determine how the muzzle velocity compares to the EMF 1892. The EMF 1892 chronographs at 2,125 fps compared to 1,450 fps published velocity.
Looking forward to seeing those results.
I just picked up a Uberti 1873 chambered in .357 Magnum. It has a 20" barrel and my EMF 1892 has a 24" barrel. I plan on chronographing Remington 125g JSP in the 1873 to determine how the muzzle velocity compares to the EMF 1892. The EMF 1892 chronographs at 2,125 fps compared to 1,450 fps published velocity.
Perhaps a good 100 yard and under medium game gun then?
Perhaps a good 100 yard and under medium game gun then?
Maybe so. It will do a number on a coyote inside 100 yards.
Perhaps a good 100 yard and under medium game gun then?
You should be able to take a deer with a 158gr SJHP from a lever action.
You should be able to take a deer with a 158gr SJHP from a lever action.
I just picked up a box of .357 Magnum 158g SJHP today. I believe I will use it to chronograph rounds fired from a revolver with 4-5/8" barrel, a lever action rifle with a 20" barrel and a lever action rifle with a 24" barrel to determine differences in muzzle velocity.
Colt Carson
12-29-20, 21:33
I just picked up a box of .357 Magnum 158g SJHP today. I believe I will use it to chronograph rounds fired from a revolver with 4-5/8" barrel, a lever action rifle with a 20" barrel and a lever action rifle with a 24" barrel to determine differences in muzzle velocity.
If I remember correctly, it is more the trajectory that is limiting rather than velocity/energy. Seems like a bullet fired from a lever gun has more velocity at 100 yds. than a 6” revolver has at the muzzle (158 grain 357 magnum). So at 100 yds. should still drop a deer with good bullet placement.
I just picked up a Uberti 1873 chambered in .357 Magnum. It has a 20" barrel and my EMF 1892 has a 24" barrel. I plan on chronographing Remington 125g JSP in the 1873 to determine how the muzzle velocity compares to the EMF 1892. The EMF 1892 chronographs at 2,125 fps compared to 1,450 fps published velocity.
I realize sectional density is different but 125gr 357 @ 2,125fps is very close to 123gr 7.62x39 @ 2400fps
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Colt Carson
12-29-20, 23:04
I realize sectional density is different but 125gr 357 @ 2,125fps is very close to 123gr 7.62x39 @ 2400fps
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
According to Buffalo Bore, their 158 grain JHP out of a Marlin 1894 has a muzzle velocity of 2100 fps. If it’s in stock that is...
You should be able to take a deer with a 158gr SJHP from a lever action.
Not a big big lever action guy myself, but I could see owning a semi auto carbine in .357 a great all around ranch rifle kinda thing that does not scream scary black evil rifle.
Not a big big lever action guy myself, but I could see owning a semi auto carbine in .357 a great all around ranch rifle kinda thing that does not scream scary black evil rifle.
That would be sweet. Something like the Ruger Carbine .44 mag, but in .357 mag with improved accuracy.
Maybe it could take Coonan 1911 .357 mag or Desert Eagle mags since they already exist?
That would be sweet. Something like the Ruger Carbine .44 mag, but in .357 mag with improved accuracy.
Maybe it could take Coonan 1911 .357 mag or Desert Eagle mags since they already exist?
What's odd is how few exist like that, yet the .357 benefits more from the longer barrel than any other handgun calibers. Tons of 9mm and even .40, and .44, yet nadda for .357 which gets really potent out of a longer barrel.
Talk about a niche not filled.
Me personally, if I'm going to be limited to one shot before I have to reload via a bolt or a lever, it's gonna be a potent, 308 minimum.
Either I get one rnd into X that has a very high probability of not requiring another rapidly, or I can get multiple rnds into the target quickly using something below 308.
That's just my POV on the topic and your et al mileage will vary.
This seems relevant to this discussion.
Draw your own conclusions based on the information provided. Not affiliated with this individual in any way. Suggest watching at least the meat targets which start at the 10:30 mark.
https://youtu.be/CD2t_qG9dls
Me personally, if I'm going to be limited to one shot before I have to reload via a bolt or a lever, it's gonna be a potent, 308 minimum.
Either I get one rnd into X that has a very high probability of not requiring another rapidly, or I can get multiple rnds into the target quickly using something below 308.
That's just my POV on the topic and your et al mileage will vary.
This is why 12 ga pump action shotguns sell so well. 😎
Me personally, if I'm going to be limited to one shot before I have to reload via a bolt or a lever, it's gonna be a potent, 308 minimum.
Either I get one rnd into X that has a very high probability of not requiring another rapidly, or I can get multiple rnds into the target quickly using something below 308.
That's just my POV on the topic and your et al mileage will vary.
I think this would come down to the same argument of 9 vs 45. Big, heavy and slow(er) vs smaller, lighter and faster. Or 556 vs ??
I don't have a chronograph but using T2C's numbers .....puts the 357 somewhere in the 30 carbine range in ft/lbs.
7.62x33 110gr ball 18in barrel @ 2000fps and just under 1000 ft/lbs of energy
Vs
9x33 (357) various weight and barrel length (16-24in) will get about 1000ft/lbs of energy.
Now when you look at 556 the ft/lbs of energy isn't that much more. It can be because of so many variables like weight and barrel length but a typical 193 is something like 1400ft/lbs out of a 20in barrel. Meanwhile with the 357 from an 18in barrel using Remington 125-grain JHPs gets 2038 fps and 1153 lb-ft (online info). 9+1
I wouldn't trade any semi auto for a lever in a SD situation, this should be obvious. But knowing that I'm getting ballistics close to 556 in only 2in more of barrel length and often close to double the bullet weight. I wouldn't feel underguned. Granted there's something to be said about confidence in a larger(er) caliber. In the same SD situation....if my front door were to be kicked in....300gr 45-70 with around 3500ft/lbs of energy. Put that where the center of the door would have been and I don't think too many two legged critters are going to brush it off
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
I think this would come down to the same argument of 9 vs 45. Big, heavy and slow(er) vs smaller, lighter and faster. Or 556 vs ??
I wouldn't want to be down to one trigger pull before I had to perform an action to make another shot with any of those. In that respect, those are all equal to me.
I don't have a chronograph but using T2C's numbers .....puts the 357 somewhere in the 30 carbine range in ft/lbs.
7.62x33 110gr ball 18in barrel @ 2000fps and just under 1000 ft/lbs of energy
Vs
9x33 (357) various weight and barrel length (16-24in) will get about 1000ft/lbs of energy.
Now when you look at 556 the ft/lbs of energy isn't that much more. It can be because of so many variables like weight and barrel length but a typical 193 is something like 1400ft/lbs out of a 20in barrel. Meanwhile with the 357 from an 18in barrel using Remington 125-grain JHPs gets 2038 fps and 1153 lb-ft (online info). 9+1
I wouldn't trade any semi auto for a lever in a SD situation, this should be obvious. But knowing that I'm getting ballistics close to 556 in only 2in more of barrel length and often close to double the bullet weight. I wouldn't feel underguned.
If I had to yank a lever or run a bolt to take another shot of 5.56, I'd feel very under gunned. The value of 5.56 is the ability to put accurate multiple shots on target with a light easy to use package, and to me, of no real value otherwise. I'm not a hunter so I only tend to think in those terms, but if it it's one shot then yank levels or run bolts, I'm not feeling 5.56, nor .357. It's also possible I'm just a big pu$$y.
Granted there's something to be said about confidence in a larger(er) caliber. In the same SD situation....if my front door were to be kicked in....300gr 45-70 with around 3500ft/lbs of energy. Put that where the center of the door would have been and I don't think too many two legged critters are going to brush it off
Hence the popularity of the 12g... *
* PS, I don't own one myself and due to factors above, do own an AR in 223/5.56.
I realize sectional density is different but 125gr 357 @ 2,125fps is very close to 123gr 7.62x39 @ 2400fps
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Then I'll gather data for 125g JSP loads when there won't be precipitation falling on the chronograph.
Not a big big lever action guy myself, but I could see owning a semi auto carbine in .357 a great all around ranch rifle kinda thing that does not scream scary black evil rifle.
Unfortunately no such animal exists to my knowledge, but it'd be a hoot for sure!
I also have one of these (but mine is a new production one, not an original): https://www.gunsamerica.com/970804121/Winchester-Mod-1895-Saddle-Ring-Carbine-30-06-Calibe.htm Now that has a "little" more oomph to it. ;)
I would NEVER choose a lever action over a semi, unless you're talking long-range "sniper" type accuracy. I am thinking ahead to the Communist Central Committee about to take the reigns of power in D.C. in about 3 weeks. If their BS agenda makes me into a created criminal then being the law-abiding citizen that I am I will have to "sell" (cough-cough) my good stuff but will still need something to defend home and hearth. God forbid you'd ever have to blast a burglar, but if you did the weapon you did it with would need to be kosher. That is where a handy little .357 lever gun would be nice, a complement to the .357 wheelgun I'd have in the bedroom.
Unfortunately no such animal exists to my knowledge, but it'd be a hoot for sure!
I also have one of these (but mine is a new production one, not an original): https://www.gunsamerica.com/970804121/Winchester-Mod-1895-Saddle-Ring-Carbine-30-06-Calibe.htm Now that has a "little" more oomph to it. ;)
I would NEVER choose a lever action over a semi, unless you're talking long-range "sniper" type accuracy. I am thinking ahead to the Communist Central Committee about to take the reigns of power in D.C. in about 3 weeks. If their BS agenda makes me into a created criminal then being the law-abiding citizen that I am I will have to "sell" (cough-cough) my good stuff but will still need something to defend home and hearth. God forbid you'd ever have to blast a burglar, but if you did the weapon you did it with would need to be kosher. That is where a handy little .357 lever gun would be nice, a complement to the .357 wheelgun I'd have in the bedroom.
I don't claim to be any SD/HD expert, but under those conditions, I'm gonna choose a 12g to compliment the .357 wheel gun. Even Biden approves of shotguns...
I don't claim to be any SD/HD expert, but under those conditions, I'm gonna choose a 12g to compliment the .357 wheel gun. Even Biden approves of shotguns..."Buy a shotgun" [song]
I live out in the sticks on 22 acres so the need for more accurate fire exceeding shotguns distances could arise. Personally for HD a handgun is GTG for me. My first line of "grab-it" weapon for the house is a pistol.
I think this would come down to the same argument of 9 vs 45. Big, heavy and slow(er) vs smaller, lighter and faster. Or 556 vs ??
I don't have a chronograph but using T2C's numbers .....puts the 357 somewhere in the 30 carbine range in ft/lbs.
7.62x33 110gr ball 18in barrel @ 2000fps and just under 1000 ft/lbs of energy
Vs
9x33 (357) various weight and barrel length (16-24in) will get about 1000ft/lbs of energy.
Now when you look at 556 the ft/lbs of energy isn't that much more. It can be because of so many variables like weight and barrel length but a typical 193 is something like 1400ft/lbs out of a 20in barrel. Meanwhile with the 357 from an 18in barrel using Remington 125-grain JHPs gets 2038 fps and 1153 lb-ft (online info). 9+1
I wouldn't trade any semi auto for a lever in a SD situation, this should be obvious. But knowing that I'm getting ballistics close to 556 in only 2in more of barrel length and often close to double the bullet weight. I wouldn't feel underguned. Granted there's something to be said about confidence in a larger(er) caliber. In the same SD situation....if my front door were to be kicked in....300gr 45-70 with around 3500ft/lbs of energy. Put that where the center of the door would have been and I don't think too many two legged critters are going to brush it off
Actually the .357 exceeds the ft/lbs of .30 Carbine rather easily when fired from a 16"+ barrel:
.30 Carbine 110gr bullet at 1900fps = 882ft/lbs
.357 158gr bullet at 1800fps = 1137ft/lbs
Downrange velocity loss will favor the .30 Carbine, but at the muzzle they aren't very close.
I live out in the sticks on 22 acres so the need for more accurate fire exceeding shotguns distances could arise. Personally for HD a handgun is GTG for me. My first line of "grab-it" weapon for the house is a pistol.
Ditto for me.
Unfortunately no such animal exists to my knowledge, but it'd be a hoot for sure!
It doesn't have the heritage but there is the .350 Legend.
It doesn't have the heritage but there is the .350 Legend.
Sounds expensive. I don't care about heritage, but what's readily available, cost effective, and does it's job.
I stick to legacy rnds for that reason myself. No interest in niche bullets, even if it has an edge on my choices.
Changing topics, I'm fascinated by that new Wilson HMR rnd, but I'd never buy a gun chambered in it.
Sounds expensive. I don't care about heritage, but what's readily available, cost effective, and does it's job.
I stick to legacy rnds for that reason myself. No interest in niche bullets, even if it has an edge on my choices.
Changing topics, I'm fascinated by that new Wilson HMR rnd, but I'd never buy a gun chambered in it.
And that, Will, is the salient point. I decided to up my bare-bones .357 stash here recently. As far as 5.56 and 9mm I'm doing pretty well (although not by some standards here!). When I looked for .357 I found two things: A) it's almost non-existent, and B) it's expensive as hell if you can find it. Spent a little over over $300 for 300rds, and 200 of them were FMJ "practice" ammo. Yeah, it's a sign of the times to be sure, but damn.
Sounds expensive. I don't care about heritage, but what's readily available, cost effective, and does it's job.
.
This quote is a little sad IMO.
I hope you don't feel the same way about vehicles, women, or food. 😬🙂
I chronographed Remington 125g JSP today. The temperature was 32 degrees with a wind chill of 23 degrees where I conducted the testing. The chronograph was placed 15 feet from the muzzle.
1-Cimmaron El Maro .357 Magnum revolver with 4-5/8" barrel: Average Velocity-1370 fps, Extreme Spread-41 fps, Standard Deviation-15 fps.
2-Taylor & Company Winchester 1873 .357 Magnum rifle with 20" barrel: Average Velocity-2104 fps, Extreme Spread-64 fps, Standard Deviation-24 fps.
3-EMF Hartford Winchester 1892 .357 Magnum rifle with 24" barrel: Average Velocity-2160 fps, Extreme Spread-63 fps, Standard Deviation-22 fps.
The 1873 barrel is 15-3/8" longer than the revolver and there was a 734 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
The 1892 barrel is 19-3/8" longer than the revolver barrel and there was a 790 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
Note that a 4" increase in rifle barrel length resulted in a 56 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
Both rifles push a heavier projectile faster than my M1 Carbine pushes a 110g JSP.
I chronographed Remington 125g JSP today. The temperature was 32 degrees with a wind chill of 23 degrees where I conducted the testing. The chronograph was placed 15 feet from the muzzle.
1-Cimmaron El Maro .357 Magnum revolver with 4-5/8" barrel: Average Velocity-1370 fps, Extreme Spread-41 fps, Standard Deviation-15 fps.
2-Taylor & Company Winchester 1873 .357 Magnum rifle with 20" barrel: Average Velocity-2104 fps, Extreme Spread-64 fps, Standard Deviation-24 fps.
3-EMF Hartford Winchester 1892 .357 Magnum rifle with 24" barrel: Average Velocity-2160 fps, Extreme Spread-63 fps, Standard Deviation-22 fps.
The 1873 barrel is 15-3/8" longer than the revolver and there was a 734 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
The 1892 barrel is 19-3/8" longer than the revolver barrel and there was a 790 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
Note that a 4" increase in rifle barrel length resulted in a 56 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
Both rifles push a heavier projectile faster than my M1 Carbine pushes a 110g JSP.
nice
great round, best handgun rd imho
I chronographed Remington 125g JSP today. The temperature was 32 degrees with a wind chill of 23 degrees where I conducted the testing. The chronograph was placed 15 feet from the muzzle.
1-Cimmaron El Maro .357 Magnum revolver with 4-5/8" barrel: Average Velocity-1370 fps, Extreme Spread-41 fps, Standard Deviation-15 fps.
2-Taylor & Company Winchester 1873 .357 Magnum rifle with 20" barrel: Average Velocity-2104 fps, Extreme Spread-64 fps, Standard Deviation-24 fps.
3-EMF Hartford Winchester 1892 .357 Magnum rifle with 24" barrel: Average Velocity-2160 fps, Extreme Spread-63 fps, Standard Deviation-22 fps.
The 1873 barrel is 15-3/8" longer than the revolver and there was a 734 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
The 1892 barrel is 19-3/8" longer than the revolver barrel and there was a 790 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
Note that a 4" increase in rifle barrel length resulted in a 56 fps increase in muzzle velocity.
Both rifles push a heavier projectile faster than my M1 Carbine pushes a 110g JSP.
Nice info, thanks for sharing!
Yeah, I was kind of thinking that there would be a point length-wise where a longer barrel would not produce much of gain (if any). Ballistics By the Inch is interesting to look at and you can see which calibers and what barrel length peaks and then begins to degrade velocity for a given caliber.
I don't want to use the word "quieter", can you tell a difference in muzzle blast between the 20 and 24 inch barrels?
Andy
I don't want to use the word "quieter", can you tell a difference in muzzle blast between the 20 and 24 inch barrels?
Andy
I cannot tell any difference in the muzzle blast or sound level.
I cannot tell any difference in the muzzle blast or sound level.
I used to have an 18" barreled Marlin .357 that I could shoot without hearing protection (of course I have low-level tinnitus so YMMV) but it was bordering on needing plugs.
I cannot tell any difference in the muzzle blast or sound level.
Thanks. I have two 357 leverguns, 18" Marlin and 16" Puma, and don't remember a difference between them either. 38 Spl is very quiet in the Marlin (won't cycle correctly in the Puma).
Thank you for posting the velocities as well.
Andy
Thanks. I have two 357 leverguns, 18" Marlin and 16" Puma, and don't remember a difference between them either. 38 Spl is very quiet in the Marlin (won't cycle correctly in the Puma).
Thank you for posting the velocities as well.
Andy
Ammunition C.O.L. is critical in the Rossi 1892 action. I reload cartridges using .357 brass loaded to .38 Special velocities for reliability in my EMF 1892. Finding factory .38 Special cartridges that feed reliably in the Rossi 1892 takes a bit of experimentation with different ammunition.
Ammunition C.O.L. is critical in the Rossi 1892 action. I reload cartridges using .357 brass loaded to .38 Special velocities for reliability in my EMF 1892. Finding factory .38 Special cartridges that feed reliably in the Rossi 1892 takes a bit of experimentation with different ammunition.
You can see where the cartridge stop should prevent the next round feeding, but mine will let a second round pop right into the action. I also just shoot 357 brass with milder loads rather than fighting it to run 38 Spl.
Andy
Andy
I've known several older cops who say how great .357 magnum was from a service revolver. Some say it was the 125 gr SJHP load, others because of earlier 158 gr loads.
My contention is its SJHP performance at the time was usually being compared with .38 special SWC, LRN, and SWCHP but also 9mm ball and .45 ball.
I also think that the sound and blast had a slight psychological effect on the person shot or shot at.
And compared to those others I mentioned it probably be would slightly more effective in some scenarios.
But does it deserve the reputation it has among many who witnessed its performance in the past?
.357 is highly dependent on barrel length. From a 6 inch barrel, it's serious business. From a snubnose, you're better off with almost anything else. The recoil to terminal performance ratio just isn't there.
If you're bound and determined to have a revolver, 357 kind of makes sense. But 10mm is still pretty superior in almost every way. I think the main appeal of revolvers in most of the last century has always been that they can deliver more powerful rounds than automatics, so in my mind the only really logical reason to choose a revolver is if you want more power than what a practical semi auto can deliver, so .44 mag makes more sense to me.
You can see where the cartridge stop should prevent the next round feeding, but mine will let a second round pop right into the action. I also just shoot 357 brass with milder loads rather than fighting it to run 38 Spl.
Andy
Andy
I see by your location that you are too far from me to check the rifle over in person.
If you are mechanically inclined, you can disassemble the rifle and clean the area where the cartridge stop hinges. The slightest build up of dirt can interfere with the cartridge stop engaging the case head properly. I stoned my assemble to increase case head engagement by 0.020" and it resolved the feeding problem.
If you take the rifle apart, do it in a clean area where you can lay parts out on a light colored surface. Be prepared to deal with some very small parts that are easy to lose if you are not careful.
If you are uncomfortable with disassembling the rifle, you can try cleaning the cartridge stop with the action open. Spray on cleaner followed by compressed air can often clean the cartridge stop good enough to resolve feeding issues. The critical part to clean is the hinged area.
I see by your location that you are too far from me to check the rifle over in person.
If you are mechanically inclined, you can disassemble the rifle and clean the area where the cartridge stop hinges. The slightest build up of dirt can interfere with the cartridge stop engaging the case head properly. I stoned my assemble to increase case head engagement by 0.020" and it resolved the feeding problem.
If you take the rifle apart, do it in a clean area where you can lay parts out on a light colored surface. Be prepared to deal with some very small parts that are easy to lose if you are not careful.
If you are uncomfortable with disassembling the rifle, you can try cleaning the cartridge stop with the action open. Spray on cleaner followed by compressed air can often clean the cartridge stop good enough to resolve feeding issues. The critical part to clean is the hinged area.
Thank you, I will have to re-look it. I had it apart a few years ago to replace a part (loading gate spring?) and I got it back together with no leftover parts, so it's within my abilities. It may be that a simple cleaning or judicious polishing will fix it, I seem to remember the stop seemed sluggish.
Andy
Great info T2C. What HD .357 ammo do you recommend for a lever gun?
Great info T2C. What HD .357 ammo do you recommend for a lever gun?
I prefer 125g JSP Remington for function and muzzle velocity and will buy more when it becomes available again. If you are a reloader, the Hornady 125g XTP bullet is accurate and can be loaded to close to the same average velocity as the Remington 125g JSP.
Most of the .357 Magnum 158g JSP loads I've tested gained about 350 fps over published handgun velocities, so I would buy 158g ammunition if that is all I could find.
Colt Carson
01-13-21, 18:20
.357 is highly dependent on barrel length. From a 6 inch barrel, it's serious business. From a snubnose, you're better off with almost anything else. The recoil to terminal performance ratio just isn't there.
If you're bound and determined to have a revolver, 357 kind of makes sense. But 10mm is still pretty superior in almost every way. I think the main appeal of revolvers in most of the last century has always been that they can deliver more powerful rounds than automatics, so in my mind the only really logical reason to choose a revolver is if you want more power than what a practical semi auto can deliver, so .44 mag makes more sense to me.
Why would someone prefer a revolver?
Well, with a revolver you leave no spent brass to be picked up. A revolver can fire pretty much any bullet design, since it doesn’t have to feed cartridges into the chamber. A revolver doesn’t have a magazine, which is a pistol’s weakest link. A revolver doesn’t depend on lubrication as much as a pistol. Most revolvers are pretty accurate since the sights are solidly mounted to the barrel. Of course revolvers have some disadvantages too. On a side note, I shoot 158 grain bullets as I’ve read of people shooting 125 grain bullets experiencing wear on the underside of the top strap with the lighter bullets.
.357 is highly dependent on barrel length. From a 6 inch barrel, it's serious business. From a snubnose, you're better off with almost anything else. The recoil to terminal performance ratio just isn't there.
If you're bound and determined to have a revolver, 357 kind of makes sense. But 10mm is still pretty superior in almost every way. I think the main appeal of revolvers in most of the last century has always been that they can deliver more powerful rounds than automatics, so in my mind the only really logical reason to choose a revolver is if you want more power than what a practical semi auto can deliver, so .44 mag makes more sense to me.
from my reading, 10mm is not superior rather, they are pretty close. 10mm was developed to mimic 357 out of autloaders. I admit to not doing my own testing but there is plenty out there and see no 'superior' in it. To say something is superior, it must be materially better and 10mm doesn't hit that mark.
I can get some serious velocity with 158gr out of my 6" 686 and it's ridiculously accurate. I also know it's a proven round
from my reading, 10mm is not superior rather, they are pretty close. 10mm was developed to mimic 357 out of autloaders. I admit to not doing my own testing but there is plenty out there and see no 'superior' in it. To say something is superior, it must be materially better and 10mm doesn't hit that mark.
I can get some serious velocity with 158gr out of my 6" 686 and it's ridiculously accurate. I also know it's a proven round
That’s based on today’s loads. When it first came to market, the 10mm was closer to .41 Magnum territory.
I think that has to do with the projectiles used today, which are likely just repurposed from .40 S&W. Pushed too fast and they won’t do their job right.
People who hunt with it are going to be ok with grabbing a box of heavy weight hard cast.
I doubt 10mm is a big enough market to spend the R&D on making the perfect 200gr bullet open up at 1400fps.
Sent from 80ms in the future
from my reading, 10mm is not superior rather, they are pretty close. 10mm was developed to mimic 357 out of autloaders. I admit to not doing my own testing but there is plenty out there and see no 'superior' in it. To say something is superior, it must be materially better and 10mm doesn't hit that mark.
I can get some serious velocity with 158gr out of my 6" 686 and it's ridiculously accurate. I also know it's a proven round
I'm saying a 10mm autoloader is superior to a .357 revolver. The ballistics are very much the same, but the 10mm makes it possible to get those ballistics in an autoloader without sacrificing so much for a shorter barrel. Same way 9mm is superior to .38 special.
Colt Carson
01-14-21, 01:24
I'm saying a 10mm autoloader is superior to a .357 revolver. The ballistics are very much the same, but the 10mm makes it possible to get those ballistics in an autoloader without sacrificing so much for a shorter barrel. Same way 9mm is superior to .38 special.
I don’t know much about the 10mm, but keep in mind today’s 357 ammo (unless maybe it’s Buffalo Bore brand) is downloaded from the early cartridges because decades ago it was wearing out the less robustly made revolvers.
I don’t know much about the 10mm, but keep in mind today’s 357 ammo (unless maybe it’s Buffalo Bore brand) is downloaded from the early cartridges because decades ago it was wearing out the less robustly made revolvers.
Same thing with 10mm. But both kind of max out around the same ft-lbs. From a really long barrel, I think extra spicy 357 might have a slight edge, but not enough to really write home about.
Wow. Never thought this thread would go 7 pages.
Also a yes and no answer from me.
It’s not a useless round. Actually pretty potent and handy to have in different platforms. But if the reputation you speak of is that it’s the all high and mighty best round ever, then no. It doesn’t deserve that reputation. I think when people discuss the 357 they also bring up 44 because they are the popular revolver calibers. Obviously the 44 takes the cake as far as power goes, therefore they scoff at the 357. But 357 does not deserve to be scoffed at either.
I have a Marlin lever action with 18” barrel. It loves buffalo bores with the 158gr Speer bullets. That is a devastating deer dropping bullet. I have 5 drt kills with that setup.
My 6” Ruger gp100 does really well with the Buffalo bores as well. But it shoots the 140gr leverevolutions more accurately. I have shot a few does with the wheel gun at 10-30 yard distances. All one shot kills as well, but not all drt. When I clean the animals I will tell you the inside wounds are devastating. I accidentally gut shot one after a quick point and shoot as she was spooking. Yet still, the wound all throughout her body was impressive. One shot. She ran about 50 yards though.
That’s my take on 357. It’s a great round for the platforms I use it in.
I'm far from an expert but I believe .357 magnum is a bit superior as a sidearm caliber. Obviously, shot placement is key to anything struck by a handgun projectile. As @matemike posted above, the doe he hit with the Ruger had an impressive amount of wound trauma.
I think in a lever gun the .357 not only amps up the velocity big-time but being a narrower and faster round than .44 Mag it will also shoot "flatter" (comparatively of course). I like Underwood but Buffalo Bore also loads hotties. A 158gr from one of those makers will hit 1700+ fps easily, if not a good deal more.
I'm far from an expert but I believe .357 magnum is a bit superior as a sidearm caliber. Obviously, shot placement is key to anything struck by a handgun projectile. As @matemike posted above, the doe he hit with the Ruger had an impressive amount of wound trauma.
I would imagine we're talking somewhere in the neighborhood of eight to nine hundred foot pounds. Basically that's in between handgun and rifle energy, with 9mm maxing out around five hundred and 5.56 being somewhere around a thousand, maybe a bit more. I've seen medium size animals completely turned inside out by .223, and the less said about the effects on humans the better.
Upwards of five hundred foot pounds is where you start to get stretch cavities large enough to start actually tearing the flesh, creating a large permanent wound channel. That is of course a function of magnitude and time. The bigger the cavity, and the faster it forms, the less able the tissue will be to withstand it.
It's also highly dependent on what it hits. Muscle and lung tissue is very resilient, whereas other organs like the liver have almost no resilience.
But yea, .357 from a 20" barrel is bound to do some real damage. You're almost at centerfire rifle energy levels, albeit with a slower, heavier bullet. Perhaps slightly less efficient than it could be, but able to get the job done nonetheless.
From T2C:
125 gr @ 2100 is 1200 fpe (20" barrel)
125 gr @ 1370 is 521 fpe (4 5/8" barrel)
Ballistics by the inch Corbon from Korth revolver:
125 gr @ 1500 is 625 fpe (4" barrel)
Their rifle velocities matched T2C's.
That is a real step up between handgun and rifle.
I have chronograph results for Federal RTP38130 .38 Special 130g FMJ ammunition fired through an El Malo single action revolver with 4-5/8" barrel and a Winchester 1866 with 20" barrel. The chronograph was placed 15' from the muzzle.
El Malo/4-5/8" barrel - 765 fps
Winchester 1866/20" barrel - 1174 fps
The extra 15-3/8" of barrel length yielded an extra 409 fps muzzle velocity with factory ammunition. The propellant for .38 Special ammunition should have a faster burn rate than .357 Magnum ammunition, so the results are what I expected.
Alaskapopo
01-26-21, 12:33
from my reading, 10mm is not superior rather, they are pretty close. 10mm was developed to mimic 357 out of autloaders. I admit to not doing my own testing but there is plenty out there and see no 'superior' in it. To say something is superior, it must be materially better and 10mm doesn't hit that mark.
I can get some serious velocity with 158gr out of my 6" 686 and it's ridiculously accurate. I also know it's a proven round
The 10mm was not designed to give similar performance to the 357 mag. Jeff Cooper designed it to be a choice between the 45 ACP and 9mm. The factory Norma loaded it a lot hotter. When comparing the 357 to the 10mm the 10mm is more powerful especially with heavier bullets.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.