Your Perfect Combat 1911

[BAC]

Since I saw a poll on the Charles Daly forums about what was wanted on their new 4th generation 1911, Rob and Terry got me to thinking about what I would consider my own perfect combat 1911, and what others would consider their own perfect combat 1911s. I did a search here, but nothing came up on this having been done before.

Here's the idea: post what you would consider your ideal fighting 1911 would be. No holds barred, feel free to mix and match features of existing manufacturers or create features of your own. Everything from form to function.

Things to consider:

Barrel & guide rod: bull-barrel setup vs. bushing-barrel setup
Cocking serrations: front, rear, both, style of serrations (angle, width, etc.)
Grip safety: beavertail vs. GI
Hammer: Commander, spur, etc.
Magazine release: extended vs. standard
Magazines: capacity (single vs double stack), composition (aluminum, polymer, steel, etc.)
Mainspring housing: arched or flat, lanyard vs. no lanyard
Composition: aluminum, polymer (ala M5 (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=556)), steel (carbon or stainless), etc.
Roll marks: billboard vs. low-key
Sights: cut, style, night sights vs. no night sights
Size: commander, compact, gov't, etc.
Slide stop: extended vs. standard
Thumb safety: extended, GI, or 'standard'
Trigger: long or short, curved or flat


Primarily, this is a mental exercise for 1911 aficionados, but anyone who knows about 'em and has an idea of what they'd like is encouraged to give it a whirl. You've got a blank slate to work from, so use whatever background and experience is at your disposal. Go crazy.


-B

[k_cheerangie]

I have not owned many 1911s but I worked at a very busy gun store for about a year, and has shot every thing from Les Bears, Willsons, Kimbers, Nighthawks, colts anything almost anything you can think of by my favorite of all time and I will get one, one of these fine days is The Springfield TRP Operator.

[SeaSoldier]

Les Baer TRS or a Rock River Basic or Pro Carry.

[ToddG]

I wouldn't be so concerned about the little details as the major ones:


ZERO gunsmithing required. Every single part should be drop-in and easily swapped with a replacement without the need for any filing, fitting, etc. This means that after 10,000 rounds, I can drop a brand new (insert part name here) and drive on.
Guaranteed reliable; should be able to fire 2,000 rounds of any SAAMI-spec .45 ammunition between cleanings with zero stoppages of any kind. Should be able to function properly after exposure to standard mil/LE test protocols for cold, heat, sand, mud, etc.
Guaranteed durability; should be able to go at least 10,000 rounds between detailed maintenance (replacing recoil spring excepted); all major components should have at least 30,000 round service life (100,000 rounds for frame and slide would be much better).
Cannot be magazine sensitive. It would be acceptable if the gun worked only with the manufacturer's magazines as long as they are available in both 8 and 10rd capacities at a competitive price.
Capable of achieving 2" accuracy at 25yd and maintaining it without major parts change for at least 30,000 rounds (100,000 would make me much happier).
Reversible magazine catch.
Slide release lever I can easily reach with my right thumb while holding the gun in a normal grip (as a right-handed shooter)
No tools needed to field strip or reassemble.
Firing pin block safety that compromises neither safety nor trigger pull.
Eliminate the grip safety.
Tennifer the frame, slide, and barrel. Not "something close to Tennifer" but the real deal ... everything else is inferior in my experience.
Maintain current grip dimensions and design so all current aftermarket grips are compatible.
Available in both 5" and 4.25" variants with no compromise to mechanical accuracy, reliability, or durability.
Street price < $1,000.


Now personally, I'd probably use a short trigger, Warren 2-dot night sights, and Crimson Trace Lasergrips on mine. But that's all stuff that's easy to do after the fact.

For bonus points, make 9mm, .40 S&W, and possibly other caliber versions as well. I'd be very sorely tempted to carry a 1911 if I could get one that held 10+ rounds of 357 SIG and ran like a sewing machine. :cool:

I know some will gawk at the price limit, but personally I'm not willing to pay 2x for a 1911 just to get the same features I can already get from any number of non-1911 guns.

edited to add: And BAC, that is just an awesome signature line! :cool:

[bullitt5172]

Les Baer TRS or a Rock River Basic or Pro Carry.

I've owned nearly every 1911 available from production to semi-custom to custom. The above mentioned 1911's (along with the SA Professional) are hands down the best performing 1911's ever produced.

[sff70]

Todd's criteria are good, although unattainable at that price point.

I'd look at the Springfield Pro and MEUSOC 1911s as templates.

There are relatively large numbers of them in service with personnel who shoot them a lot, and use them hard.

That the entities which use these pistols continue to do so shows their satisfaction with them.

Of course the price point is quite high, but there's no free lunch.

I doubt CD or anyone else are going to get this type of performance from a 1911 at a sub $1k price point, as the results of efforts by other manufacturers has shown.

Hence, the reasons why Glock et al are used so widely.

Lastly, as much as I enjoy a nicely accessoried 1911 (of which I have several), I'm reminded of a remarkable soldier named York who did exceptional work with a very basic 1911 while in France during the war to end all wars.

[BAC]

Wow, Todd. It almost sounds like you're describing a Glock or something. ;)

I guess since I started it I should offer an opinion, too.

I'd like a 1911 that could readily accept both a 4.25" and 5" slides with no modifications to the weapon's frame. Extended thumb safety is a must, but I haven't decided if an ambidextrous one is necessary or not. Like Todd, I also feel the slide stop should be moved rearward enough to be usable as a slide release. The mag catch should also be extended a bit (exactly like the 10-8 performance mag catch) for easier one-handed use. A bushing-and-barrel/GI guide rod setup would be ideal and would provide plenty accuracy for combat purposes. All-steel, all the time, ideally with a tenifer finish on all surfaces (though Melonite QPQ reportedly has higher hardness rating and comparable surface lubricity). No forward cocking serrations, and rear ones ought to have slightly wider gaps but still be angled forward like an SA Mil Spec's. I also agree that all parts must be drop-in, but to be fair that has a lot more to do with deviance from the original design than due to any inherent fault in the standard 1911.

Grips are already adjustable in their own way: the MSH can be made in either arched or flat. If the gun came with an arched MSH, it would come standard with a short trigger. If it came with a flat MSH it would come with a long trigger instead. Black Warren Tactical sights would come standard, but with a Novak cut so the end user can do his or her thing if they wanted. Existing magazines I think are fine, so the gun would have to readily accept current quality market magazines (CMC Power Mags, Tripp mags, Wilsons). If it's possible to get rid of the grip safety, do it only if a firing pin block can be added without adversely effecting other pistol functions and leave a "beavertail" where the grip safety would have been (think Sig 220 compact). If it can't be removed, use a beavertail and don't worry with a firing pin block at all. A low-profile rail for a weapon light is also necessary. All-over dehorning, since I don't like handguns that double as edged weapons. Standard trigger weight would be 3.5 to 4 lbs.

Flat-black with slide markings as subdued as a Dan Wesson 1911's (http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=86) and life would be good.

The "meeting the standards" is a given; Todd summed that up well, including the price point. What I listed shouldn't cost more than $800, probably closer to $600-$700 to be really competitive.



Todd's criteria are good, although unattainable at that price point.

Sure it is. It's whether or not a manufacturer would want to do it, since the profit margin would be slimmer than current 1911s and would require the kind of bulk sales Glock relies on. If a company starts making a no-bs, no-frills combat 1911 meant solely for reliable, rugged use, they would be filling a void in the market that people have wanted filled for a long time; people want a 1911 that will compete with Glock, and one currently doesn't exist.


Edit: The signature comes from a classic "9mm vs .45" topic on another forum. A guy who'd had enough of it dropped that little gem. Definitely sig-worthy.


-B

[rob_s]

Todd's list sounds pretty good, but frankly if that's what you want then the 1911 probably isn't the right gun.

I don't think the design lends itself to the "drop in replacement" requirements and I think it will pretty much always require fitting more son than other designs. You'd also wind up having to use MIM and a cast frame to reach the price point, and then you'd run into problems actually selling the thing.

The 1911 market is a finicky thing, and the customers are not always driven by a Honda mentality. You get a lot of sentimentality, the "fit and finish" crowd, and people that put a premium on accuracy that they'll never actually get out of the gun. I liken 1911 owners to Harley owners in a lot of ways.

My ideal would be pretty much this but parkerized. This gun cost me $1800 when new a few years ago, but I think that it could be done for $1200 or less if all the work was done at the factory.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardYost.jpg

[theJanitor]

As a 1911 fan, and an owner of a few custom pieces (and one that i'm anxiously awaiting from Drake's), i almost started to make a list. Then I realized what Todd means is true. there may be NO "perfect combat 1911" it will always leave you wanting something more; more capacity, more interchangeability, more time between scheduled maintenance, more modularity, more cost effectiveness, etc.

If we're talking about the most MAXIMIZED combat 1911, then you'd be hard pressed to find better ones than the SA Pro, or a Wilson, in my opinion

[BAC]

Todd's list sounds pretty good, but frankly if that's what you want then the 1911 probably isn't the right gun.

I don't think the design lends itself to the "drop in replacement" requirements and I think it will pretty much always require fitting more son than other designs. You'd also wind up having to use MIM and a cast frame to reach the price point, and then you'd run into problems actually selling the thing.

Could you explain these two statements? The first I honestly don't understand, and the second I disagree with but have limited knowledge on manufacturing details.
I realize the 1911 has, in many ways, become so prolific that regularly deviating from the specs is the norm, but it's still possible to make a 1911 that accepts drop in parts provided a company or group comes out and specs out how the gun is made. If the gun was made in the US, why couldn't the parts be forged and of the quality of 10-8 parts?


The 1911 market is a finicky thing, and the customers are not always driven by a Honda mentality. You get a lot of sentimentality, the "fit and finish" crowd, and people that put a premium on accuracy that they'll never actually get out of the gun. I liken 1911 owners to Harley owners in a lot of ways.

That's true, but that's not the market that a no-frills combat 1911 is targeting, either. This market is the same market that would compete with Glock (if priced no more than a few hundred higher), M&P, and XD as a fighting gun, not as a show-pony. People aren't buying any of the above guns because they're especially good looking and have nice fit/finish, but because they freakin' work. On the same token, said no-frills combat 1911 wouldn't be competing with the $1k+ 1911s that start getting super customized and super specialized (same reason the new 4th gen CD gun isn't trying to compete with the Wilson, Nighthawk or Les Baer types). I really do think that there are a number of things that can be done to a 1911 that can make it as (or nearly as) beat-up-able as a Glock or M&P that won't break the bank.


-B

[VooDoo6Actual]

SA FBI CRG PRO.

30+ years using/tweaking/perfecting/learning etc. w/ 1911's.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_2415Large.jpg

[ST911]

ZERO gunsmithing required. Every single part should be drop-in and easily swapped with a replacement without the need for any filing, fitting, etc. This means that after 10,000 rounds, I can drop a brand new (insert part name here) and drive on.
Guaranteed reliable; should be able to fire 2,000 rounds of any SAAMI-spec .45 ammunition between cleanings with zero stoppages of any kind. Should be able to function properly after exposure to standard mil/LE test protocols for cold, heat, sand, mud, etc.
Guaranteed durability; should be able to go at least 10,000 rounds between detailed maintenance (replacing recoil spring excepted); all major components should have at least 30,000 round service life (100,000 rounds for frame and slide would be much better).
Cannot be magazine sensitive. It would be acceptable if the gun worked only with the manufacturer's magazines as long as they are available in both 8 and 10rd capacities at a competitive price.
Capable of achieving 2" accuracy at 25yd and maintaining it without major parts change for at least 30,000 rounds (100,000 would make me much happier).
Reversible magazine catch.
Slide release lever I can easily reach with my right thumb while holding the gun in a normal grip (as a right-handed shooter)
No tools needed to field strip or reassemble.
Firing pin block safety that compromises neither safety nor trigger pull.
Eliminate the grip safety.
Tennifer the frame, slide, and barrel. Not "something close to Tennifer" but the real deal ... everything else is inferior in my experience.
Maintain current grip dimensions and design so all current aftermarket grips are compatible.
Available in both 5" and 4.25" variants with no compromise to mechanical accuracy, reliability, or durability.
Street price < $1,000.




You don't ask for much, do you? :D


I know some will gawk at the price limit, but personally I'm not willing to pay 2x for a 1911 just to get the same features I can already get from any number of non-1911 guns.

Amen.

[Gutshot John]

You don't ask for much, do you? :D

Actually I don't think it's that much to ask for a 1911...until you get to the <$1k or grip safety part.

I suspect however that Todd was making an indirect point about the M&P, which is a fine handgun.

All that being said, I find there are few things that are enjoyable to shoot as a custom combat 1911.

Mine should come back any week now.

[BAC]

Actually I don't think it's that much to ask for a 1911...until you get to the <$1k or grip safety part.

I think it can be done. It would be more of a question of determining what manufacturing process (casting, forging, etc.) can accomplish what the intent of the firearm is and figuring out the profit margin. The grip safety thing is kinda complicated, so I'm enlisting the help of people who know more about 1911 functions than I do to talk it over.

The 1911 is a great pistol, but I think it can be modernized and can still take on the big players in the fighting handgun market. Hell, setting H&K as an upper limit would be a decent start. :p


-B

[ToddG]

I wasn't making any point about the M&P. If I wanted a 1911 that was more like an M&P, I would have asked for polymer frame, double stack, high capacity, etc.

A 100% parts interchangeable 1911 is certainly possible. After all, parts is parts. However, it's very feasible that if you made a 100% parts interchangeable 1911, its parts wouldn't be fully compatible with a lot of the other aftermarket stuff available in terms of hammers, triggers, etc. And while certainly there are folks on this forum who still think of the 1911 as the greatest combat tool ever invented, a huge part of what actually keeps the 1911 market running is the fact that it's a hot-rodder's and customizer's wet dream. Take that capability away and you might have some people who aren't very happy with your product no matter how reliable and durable it is.

My desires basically fall into three categories:
Make the gun run dependably right out of the box.
Make the gun more ergonomic.
Bring the design in line with other major popular combat handguns in terms of manufacturing precision and simplicity (and therefore price).

Could you build a 1911 (or 1911-style gun, at least) to the spec I wrote? Yes, with enough investment and engineering. But a gun meeting my spec would lose some of what makes 1911 aficionados love the 1911.

[BAC]

Actually, parts availability would be pretty easy to make drop in if the manufacturer floods the market with factory parts (think Glock). Just a thought.


-B

[Gutshot John]

I think it can be done. It would be more of a question of determining what manufacturing process (casting, forging, etc.) can accomplish what the intent of the firearm is and figuring out the profit margin. The grip safety thing is kinda complicated, so I'm enlisting the help of people who know more about 1911 functions than I do to talk it over.

The 1911 is a great pistol, but I think it can be modernized and can still take on the big players in the fighting handgun market. Hell, setting H&K as an upper limit would be a decent start. :p


-B

I love the 1911, I just don't think that the commercial market makes it profitable to make a quality 1911 without charging a significant margin. I'm not necessarily sure it needs to be modernized, it just must be made by a manufacturer with an exacting eye for detail and commitment to quality over quantity. Neither comes cheap.

If money is no object, than a custom combat 1911 will make an excellent and reliable firearm along Todd's criteria.

For the effort involved, a strong case can be made for an M&P .45 or Glock 21.

Unfortunately the 100% parts interchangeability issue is also problematic. Standardizing the 1911 across the board seems unrealistic to me. Why not just go with a whole different design?

[ZDL]

Shouldn't one be looking for a combat pistol instead of a combat ______. Just curious. If the glock or ___________ is better at said application why would one carry anything else?

I guess the question would make more sense to me stated as "Your perfect 1911" sans the combat... Not picking on your question just thinking out loud. Open to the possibility that I'm thinking to hard. :cool:

[toddackerman]

Start with a quality frame and slide (SA, Caspian etc.) or take a SA Loaded and replace all the internals with non-MIM parts. Use all forged parts internally. Beavertail, checkering front and back at 25LPI, 2" accuracy at 25 yds. (I don't care how you do it as long as it doesn't effect reliabilty), Simonich Gunner Grips, 10-8 .150" wide notch rear sight, Trijicon (non white outlined) front sight. Trigger weight at 4# and crisp. Bevel mag well (extended mag well is not needed in a ccw gun). Proper Ramp and Throat job that will accept YOUR desired CCW round. Matte black finish and 8 mags that all function 100%, and so you can rotate 2 every month to let the springs and the feed lips rest.

It must pass 500-1,000 rounds of testing with your carrry load and carry mags before putting it in your CCW holster.

[BAC]

Shouldn't one be looking for a combat pistol instead of a combat ______. Just curious. If the glock or ___________ is better at said application why would one carry anything else?

I guess the question would make more sense to me stated as "Your perfect 1911" sans the combat... Not picking on your question just thinking out loud. Open to the possibility that I'm thinking to hard. :cool:

Actually, that's a pretty good point.

Frankly, it never would have occurred to me to think seriously about actual modifications to the pistol like what Todd was suggesting until he actually mentioned it. Light-bulb moment, I guess. If I'm reading him right, it sounds a lot like "I want these couple changes made, but I want to keep everything else about the 1911". The grip angle, the trigger, the general feel of the gun, would all stay the same. It might not be considered a "true 1911" anymore, but it's still effectively a 1911-patterned pistol, or at the very least a pistol inspired by and modeled closely after a 1911.

In a way, it's almost avoiding designing a whole new pistol from the ground up by taking an existing platform and modifying it as needed. That make any sense?

Now, for me, I want to go a step further (this is more an answer to Gutshot John) and actually consider what sort of manufacturing processes can be used to get this 1911-ish pistol into a price bracket to let it directly compete with Glock and the M&P. I think it's possible, but would require a hefty initial investment. Likewise, I think designing said pistol and cranking out factory parts for it (arched and flat mainspring housings, long and short triggers, replacement internals, etc.) that are all truly built to spec and drop-in would jump start a market following. It won't be as utterly customizable as a true 1911, but it would still lend itself to being easily adjusted to different grip preferences.


-B

[ZDL]

Actually, that's a pretty good point.

Frankly, it never would have occurred to me to think seriously about actual modifications to the pistol like what Todd was suggesting until he actually mentioned it. Light-bulb moment, I guess. If I'm reading him right, it sounds a lot like "I want these couple changes made, but I want to keep everything else about the 1911". The grip angle, the trigger, the general feel of the gun, would all stay the same. It might not be considered a "true 1911" anymore, but it's still effectively a 1911-patterned pistol, or at the very least a pistol inspired by and modeled closely after a 1911.

In a way, it's almost avoiding designing a whole new pistol from the ground up by taking an existing platform and modifying it as needed. That make any sense?

Now, for me, I want to go a step further (this is more an answer to Gutshot John) and actually consider what sort of manufacturing processes can be used to get this 1911-ish pistol into a price bracket to let it directly compete with Glock and the M&P. I think it's possible, but would require a hefty initial investment. Likewise, I think designing said pistol and cranking out factory parts for it (arched and flat mainspring housings, long and short triggers, replacement internals, etc.) that are all truly built to spec and drop-in would jump start a market following. It won't be as utterly customizable as a true 1911, but it would still lend itself to being easily adjusted to different grip preferences.


-B

Good explanation. I'm learning here as well. :cool:

[maximus83]

One of the solid mid-priced but high-quality production guns put out by some of the best gun makers would cut it. I've nothing against the higher-end guns, and wouldn't mind getting one myself eventually. But from what I've observed, the more moderately priced guns that are well made can be durable, reliable options for duty usage:

* Full-sized, 5" govt model for maximum reliability in feeding and extraction.
* Corrosion-resistant, matte finish over stainless steel or alloy.
* Weapon must be able to be field-stripped without ANY extra tools.
* No problem using MIM parts, provided they are quality-made MIM, and adequate maintenance/replacement schedules are followed on wearable parts on the pistols.
* GI-type recoil spring guide rod (helps avoid need for tools for take-down). Just say no to FLGR's.
* No firing pin block to complicate the fire control system, and no locking systems, like the SA ILS. These should be removed (easily done by anyone in under 10 minutes in the case of the ILS) or preferably, never built into the pistols in the first place.
* Use 8rd CMC Power mags with the Tripp upgrades.
* Combat accuracy of 3" to 4" groups at 25 yards is adequate. Depending on mission, some groups will spec for better accuracy.
* Trigger pull 4 to 5.5 lbs.
* Ambidextrous safety.
* A rear sight strong enough to enable cycling the slide by pushing the sight against something. The 10-8 rear sight is an example capable of this. Important for combat situations where someone may be wounded or operating with one hand.
* Non-adjustable, low-mounted combat sights.
* Extras like 25 lpi front-strap checkering, and mags hand-fitted to the pistol, are nice and enhance performance, but not required.
* Basic "combat reliability package" of gunsmith services, similar to what Springfield's custom shop will do for about $200. Various polishing and tuning tasks, etc. Or for another example of these steps, see Bill Wilsons "9 steps to a reliable 1911" on this page (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=38) at Brownells.


Three examples of pistols currently on the market could be made to meet the above specs, and still kept within a reasonable price range of $800 to $1200 for basic purchase price, and then perhaps allowing up to $200 more for the extra services. Of course, you can spend a LOT more, and then there are many high-end pistols by Nighthawk, Wilson and others that would easily meet all the above specs:

1) Springfield full-size Operators (MC and LW) or the TRP Armory Kote models. All recommended as reasonable duty options by Hilton Yam. And I personally really like the LW Operator (just bought recently), provided you get the gunsmith reliability tuneup. The LW is an alloy frame so will have somewhat of a reduced frame life compared to steel, but has the advantage of being half a pound lighter.

2) Dan Wesson Valor.

3) S&W 1911PD Tactical Rail model (another alloy lightweight, like the SA LW, but again very strong).

[Jay Cunningham]

The grip angle, the trigger, the general feel of the gun, would all stay the same. It might not be considered a "true 1911" anymore, but it's still effectively a 1911-patterned pistol, or at the very least a pistol inspired by and modeled closely after a 1911.

Hmmm...

The S&W M&P45 has (from what I have been told) basically the same grip angle as a 1911. I know it's not exactly the same as "out of the box" but a $65 trigger job from Dan Burwell will get the trigger remarkably close to a 1911. Added to that is the ability to get one with a manual frame-mounted safety in the same location as a 1911. Add into that the full size guns are known to be freakishly accurate right out of the box.

I am not a 1911 guy and I am not an M&P Kool-Aid drinker but I do own a .45 M&P... I am thinking that ToddG's earlier opinion is most accurate:


I wasn't making any point about the M&P. If I wanted a 1911 that was more like an M&P, I would have asked for polymer frame, double stack, high capacity, etc.

A 100% parts interchangeable 1911 is certainly possible. After all, parts is parts. However, it's very feasible that if you made a 100% parts interchangeable 1911, its parts wouldn't be fully compatible with a lot of the other aftermarket stuff available in terms of hammers, triggers, etc. And while certainly there are folks on this forum who still think of the 1911 as the greatest combat tool ever invented, a huge part of what actually keeps the 1911 market running is the fact that it's a hot-rodder's and customizer's wet dream. Take that capability away and you might have some people who aren't very happy with your product no matter how reliable and durable it is.

My desires basically fall into three categories:
Make the gun run dependably right out of the box.
Make the gun more ergonomic.
Bring the design in line with other major popular combat handguns in terms of manufacturing precision and simplicity (and therefore price).

Could you build a 1911 (or 1911-style gun, at least) to the spec I wrote? Yes, with enough investment and engineering. But a gun meeting my spec would lose some of what makes 1911 aficionados love the 1911.

[No.6]

Strangely enough, I'm doing this process as we speak. I've been email corresponding with Steve Morrison about a custom build, hard use 1911.
What prompted this was the same sentiment as BAC's original post. What would I want from a combat pistol. I sold an HK Mk23 in part to finance this, but mostly because I've learned the hard way, through many different pistols, that the ergonomics and especially the trigger of a single action, 1911 just can not be beat. Hundred years old or not, Browning got it right, and right is well, just right.

[maximus83]

Hmmm...

The S&W M&P45 has (from what I have been told) basically the same grip angle as a 1911. I know it's not exactly the same as "out of the box" but a $65 trigger job from Dan Burwell will get the trigger remarkably close to a 1911. Added to that is the ability to get one with a manual frame-mounted safety in the same location as a 1911. Add into that the full size guns are known to be freakishly accurate right out of the box.

I am not a 1911 guy and I am not an M&P Kool-Aid drinker but I do own a .45 M&P... I am thinking that ToddG's earlier opinion is most accurate:

[...] a huge part of what actually keeps the 1911 market running is the fact that it's a hot-rodder's and customizer's wet dream. [..]



I agree that customization is a factor, 1911's are customizable guns, have been around a long time, and capitalism being what it is, folks are going to go after that opportunity to sell aftermarket parts and enhancements. And the ability to customize one's gun is definitely something that makes a gun attractive, from the Glock, to the 10/22, to the Remington 870. Nothing wrong with that. But with the 1911, it's a bit unique. I wouldn't see customization as being the major thing that keeps its momentum going.

I think there are some other, more practical and historical reasons that really keep the 1911 so popular among shooters. The 1911 has been around since before all our modern plastic pistols were born, and will probably still be around (though in an ever-evolving form) after most of them are gone. And there are a few very simple and clear reasons for that, which most 1911 fans tend to agree on. Here are a few of them:


* It has strong historic/nostalgic ties. It is truly "the American gun", designed by an American, made in America (mostly), and used by Americans (mostly) in the Great War. For those reasons along with its effectiveness, it was THE pistol of the service prior to the adoption of the M9, and that influenced many pistol buyers to get one.
* It shoots the .45 with brilliant effectiveness. American shooters love the .45 acp, and not only because of the historical ties, it's because the .45 acp, especially when fired from a 5" barrel, can be incredibly effective as a man-stopper, arguably THE most effective among the popular combat pistol rounds. Another benefit is that, partly because of the outstanding ergos and trigger, 1911's can have incredible accuracy potential, making them outstanding target-shooting pistols. So I think part of the success of 1911's is due to their actual shooting performance.
* It's all-steel (in the original design and in most modern ones). Many people LIKE steel guns, and the durability and recoil-reducing weight that goes with them.
* It has a brilliant, single-action trigger design. 1911's consistently have the best, smoothest, shortest resetting, most accuracy-enhancing triggers of any pistol available. It is almost impossible to get another pistol with a single-action trigger, and of the few available (like the EAA Witness series), they still cannot compare to the 1911 trigger. Many 1911 shooters cite the trigger as THE primary reason they love the 1911 so much.
* It has a great ergonomic design: outstanding grip angle, slim grips and profile (makes for easy concealment) low bore-axis, etc.


Despite its weaknesses, which are varied and well known (LAV summarizes (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_153_25/ai_75211979/pg_8?tag=artBody;col1) them as being mostly involving the extractor, the plunger tube, and the ejector), and its higher cost compared to modern production guns, I still think that the 1911 still holds a special place in the heart of a lot of shooters, and will likely continue doing so for the long term. I doubt if it'll ever be the general issue pistol again for our services or most LE agencies: there are modern production pistols that for a number of reasons, may be better suited to service use: they are lighter, less expensive, still very reliable, easier to replace parts, accurate enough, and so on. But for reasons like those above, I don't see the 1911 going away or even dropping in popularity. I think it'll even continue having a strong role in service and combat use for certain specialist users who are aficionados, know what they want in a pistol, and know how to maintain a 1911.

[BAC]

Yikes. Note to self; don't ever suggest physical changes to the 1911 on a 1911 forum. :eek:


The S&W M&P45 has (from what I have been told) basically the same grip angle as a 1911.

It still feels pretty different; the only two semi-automatic pistols I have any significant trigger time on are a Glock 17 and a Springfield 1911. I've tried the M&P and XD, and didn't notice anything about the pistols that I particularly cared for as far as the grip goes. I think I used "grip angle" very poorly, when I meant to describe the grip itself. That said, I also haven't experienced a trigger job on any firearm; I just know that I'm more confident in my shots with my 1911 than the Glock or any other semi-auto handgun I've shot.

maximus83 brings up a good about why the 1911 is touted as what it is. The [tangible] things that make it great, though, are not the things that are being suggested to change. In fact, those are exactly what I'd like to keep (the grip and trigger in particular).

I think I need to bring this discussion to an actual gunsmithing forum... :o


-B

[Rob96]

Hmmm...

The S&W M&P45 has (from what I have been told) basically the same grip angle as a 1911.

No where near the same feel though.

[Cameron]

Just get a couple of Colts.

More accurate than I am and both Commander and Government have run more than 16,000 rounds each without a failure!
Series 80 Government and Commander Models
Stock Colt Internals, replaced ejectors at the 15,000 round mark but still have stock extractors!!
Wilson Drop-In Beaver Tail Grip Safety
Ed Brown Tactical Thumb Safety
VZ Slim Micarta 320 Grips
Grip Tape on the front strap! :D
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/080719Colts03.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/080719Colts02.jpg

[Jack_Stroker]

Springfield TRP Operator. It really is the perfect 1911 for me. For concealed carry I use a Springfield TRP Stainless which is almost as good, but I like having the mount for my Streamlight TLR-2.

[bertothepro]

Outstanding subject!
I am currently in search of the "perfect combat 1911" because to me there is no other secondary weapon that is as effective as the 1911. It's durable, accurate, and reliable and it's lethal.

These are the points that I look for in a combat 1911:
1. Complete and unwavering functional ability. That means when I need my pistol to work – it works. Every time, all the time no matter the climate I’m in or the condition of my weapon – wet, dry, clean or dirty. No matter if it’s the 1000 round or the 20,000 round.
2. Be capable of a 4” x 4” group or better at 25 yards.
3. Eat whatever ammo I feed it.
4. Function with a wide variety of magazines.
5. Be able to be field striped without any tools.
6. Stand up to the daily abuse of training or combat environments.
7. Have a lanyard loop in the mainspring housing.
8. Drop in ability. Anything can break…so if/when something breaks it can easily be fixed without having to go to the armorer or gunsmith.
9. Have the option of a rail, slide serrations and checkering on front strap and mainspring housing. In other words – easily fit to the operator’s individual needs.
10. Complete and unwavering functional ability. That means when I need my pistol to work – it works. Every time, all the time no matter the climate I’m in or the condition of my weapon – wet, dry, clean or dirty. No matter if it’s the 1000 round or the 20,000 round.

I don’t see any reason why something like this would need to cost more than $1000. We are talking combat 1911’s here, not customized target pistols for competition shooters. It doesn’t need to be “pretty” and it most definitely doesn’t need to be tight. In fact I like my combat pistol kind of like I used to like my women…a little on the loose side!

Oh and by the way, if anyone knows where I can find one of these, let me know and I’ll take four. Pistols that is!

Semper Fi

[xray 99]

Todd, why .357 SIG?

[BAC]

It's stupid accurate and feeds reliably. I don't know anything else about it, so it's a good question in my book.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to mention this, but caliber would be good to consider, too, among the other listed requirements in my opening post. How did I miss that? :o


-B

[RD62]

Colt probably. No firing pin safeties! 5" mandatory. All steel mandatory. Forged frame and slide. Standard barrel and bushing. GI style recoil plug and guide rod. Long curved aluminum solid trigger. Officers style ringed hammer and a beavertail grip safety. Undercut trigger guard. 25-30 lpi front strap checkering. Rear cocking serrations only, vertical or slanted I don't care. Not too fine not too coarse. Smith and Alexander flat mainspring housing with extended mag well, machined for lanyard attachment. Extended thumb safety and mildly extended mag release. Standard slide release. EGW makes nice stuff, we can use their internals, bushing, link, slide release, extractor, Firing Pin Retainer, etc. Dovetailed tritium front sight and a plain 10-8 rear. Ion Bond might be nice, but Parkerizing works just fine too. Walnut grips are good, maybe some VZ 320's, or hell black plastic would work. Trigger tuned to about 5# and knock off any edge that'll make me bleed. Stack of CMC 8rnd powermags oughta do it. Oh yeah and a couple cases of Federal HST.

This design is simple. Obviously any pistol needs to be tested for reliability, but this should work. Should be capable of more than enough accuracy at the distances it will be employed. Nothing should be tightened, accurized, made "match", etc.

-RD62

[RD62]

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/080719Colts03.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/080719Colts02.jpg

I prefer different sights and a magwell, but these should do quite nicely!

-RD62

[KevinB]

Not 100% yet

but better than nothing

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Weapons/IMG_0589.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/IMG_0567.jpg

Also have a Nighthawk VT Recon gun, Nigthhawk 10-8 gun, and a Springfield Professional Custom Shop gun, and one or two more IIRC.



I will admit the 1911 is my favourite pistol (followed by the BHP).

Wayne Novak's "The Answer" one piece backstrap deals away with the assine grip safety that most of us loath.

Nostalgically I built while in Iraq for duty use
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq%201911/IMG_3501.jpg

I think with quality parts and attention to detail used to build, that they are the greatest combat pistol on earth.

Plus .45 is just comforting for me.

[VooDoo6Actual]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_1243.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_1251.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_1255.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_1268.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_2412Large.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_2409Large.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/IMG_2419Large.jpg

[BAC]

Generally speaking, do you guys like the Commander length 1911 as a general purpose gun? Would you liken it to a Glock 19 compared to a Glock 17?


-B

[theJanitor]

the gov't length works better IMO. the commander length guns seem to be a little finicky, especially with spring weights.

[VooDoo6Actual]

+1 theJanitor's comments.

[Sidewinder6]

:D

http://i34.tinypic.com/250j7de.jpg

[SCULLY]

My Vickers Tactical

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/771/getattachmentfg6xq0hn1fx2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1961/vickersmagwell22oh6nx4zw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[rob_s]

My Vickers Tactical

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/771/getattachmentfg6xq0hn1fx2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1961/vickersmagwell22oh6nx4zw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Other than the cost, I think that was one of the best concepts for a 1911 around.

[decodeddiesel]

My Vickers Tactical

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/771/getattachmentfg6xq0hn1fx2.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1961/vickersmagwell22oh6nx4zw5.jpg

Stunning weapon, however I shudder to think of what it cost :eek:

ETA: I really love the high cut front strap and the checkering.

[eng208]

I wouldn't be so concerned about the little details as the major ones:


ZERO gunsmithing required. Every single part should be drop-in and easily swapped with a replacement without the need for any filing, fitting, etc. This means that after 10,000 rounds, I can drop a brand new (insert part name here) and drive on.
Guaranteed reliable; should be able to fire 2,000 rounds of any SAAMI-spec .45 ammunition between cleanings with zero stoppages of any kind. Should be able to function properly after exposure to standard mil/LE test protocols for cold, heat, sand, mud, etc.
Guaranteed durability; should be able to go at least 10,000 rounds between detailed maintenance (replacing recoil spring excepted); all major components should have at least 30,000 round service life (100,000 rounds for frame and slide would be much better).
Cannot be magazine sensitive. It would be acceptable if the gun worked only with the manufacturer's magazines as long as they are available in both 8 and 10rd capacities at a competitive price.
Capable of achieving 2" accuracy at 25yd and maintaining it without major parts change for at least 30,000 rounds (100,000 would make me much happier).
Reversible magazine catch.
Slide release lever I can easily reach with my right thumb while holding the gun in a normal grip (as a right-handed shooter)
No tools needed to field strip or reassemble.
Firing pin block safety that compromises neither safety nor trigger pull.
Eliminate the grip safety.
Tennifer the frame, slide, and barrel. Not "something close to Tennifer" but the real deal ... everything else is inferior in my experience.
Maintain current grip dimensions and design so all current aftermarket grips are compatible.
Available in both 5" and 4.25" variants with no compromise to mechanical accuracy, reliability, or durability.
Street price < $1,000.


Now personally, I'd probably use a short trigger, Warren 2-dot night sights, and Crimson Trace Lasergrips on mine. But that's all stuff that's easy to do after the fact.

For bonus points, make 9mm, .40 S&W, and possibly other caliber versions as well. I'd be very sorely tempted to carry a 1911 if I could get one that held 10+ rounds of 357 SIG and ran like a sewing machine. :cool:

I know some will gawk at the price limit, but personally I'm not willing to pay 2x for a 1911 just to get the same features I can already get from any number of non-1911 guns.

edited to add: And BAC, that is just an awesome signature line! :cool:

Please don't take offense, as I agree with what you stated and it required a lot of thought, but I think you just described a GLOCK!:D

[theJanitor]

:rolleyes:

[eng208]

What ever happened to the 10-8 Springfields that were run last year? I always thought they were a great concept, with exception of the forward cocking serrations. I do like that Vickers Tactical.

I was just kidding about the Glock comment, and I later saw that I was late on it anyway.:o

I do have both, and like them both just as much. My SA Champion Loaded LW works 100% was <700 bucks, and has everything wanted in a good 1911. You just have to hand select the lower priced 1911s it seems to get a nicely fitted one.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/000_0035.jpg

[SWATcop556]

The 10-8 Springfield Operators were a limited run of pistols commissioned by Hilton Yam via the Springfield Custom Shop.

There were only three runs I believe and I know that there are no plans for any more at this time, which is a let down.

I believe that, hands down, this was as close as one would get to a fighting 1911 at a some-what reasonable price point.

I purchased a Kimber TLE-RL that I've put several hundred dollars into to massage it into a reliable fighting weapon, but once it was there it is one of my favorite 1911's that I own.

[DocGKR]

If restricted in price, then the M&P 45 with Performance Center sear.

If price is not a consideration, the USMC MEU-SOC is an ideal combat 1911; the SA Pro 1911's (either PC9111 or PC9111LR) for the FBI are also a good option.

I prefer my 1911's set-up as below:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/57950-Rogers_SA_LW1911.jpg

[mrosamilia]

I have had probably about 6 1911's, and without the services of a local gunsmith I have came to love the TRP. I would like to pick up a pro as well, but unfortunately I am in the auto industry and right now funds are tight.

[Battlepack]

The 10-8 Springfield Operators were a limited run of pistols commissioned by Hilton Yam via the Springfield Custom Shop.

There were only three runs I believe and I know that there are no plans for any more at this time, which is a let down.

I believe that, hands down, this was as close as one would get to a fighting 1911 at a some-what reasonable price point.

I purchased a Kimber TLE-RL that I've put several hundred dollars into to massage it into a reliable fighting weapon, but once it was there it is one of my favorite 1911's that I own.

As a lucky owner of a 10-8 Operator, I concur.:D

I've got a handful of production, semi-custom, and custom 1911s, but that one is my favorite. I guess I was able to get in on the second run because the word was not quite out yet on what a bargain they were.

[sff70]

A buddy of mine has a 10-8 Operator. I put about 300 rounds through it.

It is indeed a well designed and put together pistol.

[decodeddiesel]

If restricted in price, then the M&P 45 with Performance Center sear.

If price is not a consideration, the USMC MEU-SOC is an ideal combat 1911; the SA Pro 1911's (either PC9111 or PC9111LR) for the FBI are also a good option.

I prefer my 1911's set-up as below:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/57950-Rogers_SA_LW1911.jpg

Nice looking Springer Doc. What are the specs?