View Full Version : Buying Your Pseudo-Military Stuff from China
It seems like the involvement of American purchasers (both corporate and individual retail) in funding Chinese companies to develop better and better red dot sights, electronic devices, and so on will have only resulted in both capital and knowledge moving to an enemy of our way of life.
Every person who buys a knockoff micro RDS (even from the “big names”) or scope, or even an iPhone, may end up being complicit in funding the design and purchase of weapons that will be used to fairly decent effect against US soldiers at some point in the future. Or do you think that those same companies wouldn’t be nationalized to produce those “as good as an Aimpoint” items the second we got involved in a conflict?
It’s something that needs to be said. I’m all about free trade. I’m not a fan of DJT’s approach to economics. I’m all about distributing labor to lift the entire world out of poverty. But there’s a limit.
I think we’re going to reap the wildwind on this. And I think it’s only honest to acknowledge our involvement, without the usual “well, everyone else is doing it, my purchase didn’t matter.”
I don’t care about Harleys or Cadillacs, the Chinese can have those.
Change My Mind
Though I don’t completely disagree with your sentiment. Slick Willy sold China our strategic defense secrets during his term. In the grand scheme of things, small arms accessories are a small drop in the bucket.
Also if the Chinese really want something, they’ll just fire up the corporate espionage servers. Ain’t no thing.
Adrenaline_6
02-17-20, 12:52
The Chinese are fully capable of copying whatever they want at that level. Copyright infringement is kind of null and void in a state of war.
Aimpoint is Swedish anyway. Your question should be why isn't there a US company that makes a competing product?
Your question should be why isn't there a US company that makes a competing product?
100% this.
That said. Government needs to unfvck the cost of manufacturing in the US if anything is to ever change.
Also, trijicon and Aimpoint had one job going into SHOT and they blew it miserably so I for one have no qualms about picking up a holosun 509T when they’re released. That’s how markets work.
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MountainRaven
02-17-20, 14:07
"May end up complicit"? May?
I'd bet there's some Talib in some cave in Afghanistan, right now, with a Holosun on his gun. A rugged, reliable Holosun developed in China using American dollars. And has very likely been used to shoot at American servicemen and -women in Afghanistan.
There is probably some ISIS dude in Syria or Iraq, someone associated with Hezbollah, who is similarly equipped.
Of course, there are probably also allied Kurds hunting said ISIS dudes with rifles so equipped, as well. And if it weren't for those cheap, Chinese-made red dots and LPVOs, plenty of our allies wouldn't have as great of access to these force multipliers, either.
And Aimpoint is based in a country even more Socialist than we are.
Outlander Systems
02-17-20, 14:16
Daily reminder that automation is going to BTFO Chinese slave labor.
100% this.
That said. Government needs to unfvck the cost of manufacturing in the US if anything is to ever change.
Also, trijicon and Aimpoint had one job going into SHOT and they blew it miserably so I for one have no qualms about picking up a holosun 509T when they’re released. That’s how markets work.
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Seems like every few months this same handwringing topic shows up.
You know, a few years back I think it was either Soldier Systems or Breach Bang Clear that ran a couple stories about the Chinese apparently sending corporate spies to Shot Show.
You really think they can't figure out how to set up a shell company and order whatever they think looks interesting?
And even anything there is surely small peas compared to what their 'shaping op' guys are likely trying to acquire.
I mean, like Marco said... it seems to me if they want it... they'll get it without our help...
Also remember that several "good guy" brands with budget lines also have them made in some various overseas countries; places where, if we should be so worried about some tech or other falling into enemy hands, such tech would be even MORE readily accessible to sitcky-fingered chicoms.
Also this is the same lame-ass argument the anti's always use for restricting everything. "B-but someone might use it against the forces of truth and justice at some point in the future...think of the children...the cops are so outgunned because civs have 'easy access' to scary guns and bullet stoppy thingies. Oh noes! Nooo, don't train civs in any sort of effective manner they might *gulp* ...know things...Don't buy that red dot from china because they might get something out of it..."
It's old.
As far as reaping the whirlwind... we already are.
Look at how this Corona-virus is already playing out; China is so interlinked with us and everyone else that if they go down, even temporarily, it means heavy economic disruptions and shortages of supplies - some of them potentially critical- everywhere. Now imagine a war...
The time for worrying about your purchases being used to fund the acquisition of tech and weapons to be used against us in the future has long sailed.
That being said... I generally refuse to buy anything from China IF I can help it. Mainly because I refuse to buy into the false economy of cheap throwaway consumerism.
However..., since the topic is red dots and cell phones, when the best a EU/US company can do is offer the SAME basic single-dot tube-design that's been around for decades, that weighs as much as a full variable scope and therefore in the era of 'lightweight everything' nobody wants to bolt on their rifle, and still costs $3-400+...
Or they offer a "budget option" in the $150-200+ range, but it sucks...
I get it; hometown labor and 'the good parts' are expensive, blah blah, etc. But we're talking BASIC RDS tech, not a long range precision scope...there's going to to be a price to pay when someone else shows up with an 85% solution that costs half the price/weight/etc, and you haven't beat them to it.
If/when cheap chinese-brand phones start making it overseas... Apple is going to get slaughtered, because half the country is already fed up with overpaying for their "features".
And yeah, they'll probably own our cell network after that. But it will be our own damn fault...
But I mean... that's just my opinion.
. Your question should be why isn't there a US company that makes a competing product?
Or, more specifically...."Why isn't there a US company that makes a competing product at the same price?"
Given the choice, I'd prefer to buy an iPhone made in the US rather than an iPhone made in China...I'd even pay a little more for it. Until that's a possibility, well....I'm going to buy an iPhone.
.
A Chinese optic made today is quite different from the ones from 15-20 years ago.
Daily reminder that automation is going to BTFO Chinese slave labor.
Why not? It’s going to BTFO of US labor, too.
[emoji2375][emoji3064]
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It seems like the involvement of American purchasers (both corporate and individual retail) in funding Chinese companies to develop better and better red dot sights, electronic devices, and so on will have only resulted in both capital and knowledge moving to an enemy of our way of life.
Every person who buys a knockoff micro RDS (even from the “big names”) or scope, or even an iPhone, may end up being complicit in funding the design and purchase of weapons that will be used to fairly decent effect against US soldiers at some point in the future. Or do you think that those same companies wouldn’t be nationalized to produce those “as good as an Aimpoint” items the second we got involved in a conflict?
It’s something that needs to be said. I’m all about free trade. I’m not a fan of DJT’s approach to economics. I’m all about distributing labor to lift the entire world out of poverty. But there’s a limit.
I think we’re going to reap the wildwind on this. And I think it’s only honest to acknowledge our involvement, without the usual “well, everyone else is doing it, my purchase didn’t matter.”
I don’t care about Harleys or Cadillacs, the Chinese can have those.
Change My Mind
“Distributing labor to lift the world out of poverty.”
Is that what they call Globalism nowadays?
It’s garbage. The whole Philosophy is flawed because the elite aren’t trying to “lift the world out of poverty”. They are all about consolidating nations. Into their own pockets.
I was not a supporter of CAFTA, NAFTA, GATT, WTO or FTAA.
I’m still not a supporter of these crippling agreements. No true American could be.
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Sorry, could care less about red dots. F-35s, nuke submarines, cruse missiles, subsonic missiles, satellites, ect... on the other hand are going to kill a lot more soldiers than cheap red dots. I would also assume they stole the plans from aimpoint's servers years ago.
China isnt a threat to us. Canada on the other hand...
Thats why we need the new 6.8 OVAHMATCH. When the Canucks try to invade, we need a cartridge capable of vaporizing the moose (meese?) and bears they’ll be riding. I would presume the bears will have lasers, so we’ll need the standoff capability, too.
The_War_Wagon
02-17-20, 18:54
ONLY thing I ever bought from China, was a Polytech AK, and Norinco ammo. And Arsenal 36 mags and drums.
Calling people complicit is completely assinine. I think that was your point though so good trolling! Hope the mods shut this down before it gets as stupid as you hope it will be.
HardToHandle
02-17-20, 21:12
The bigger issue is what the Chinese are tracking about YOU. The digital tracks you are leaving are very informative, I would guess.
The bigger issue is what the Chinese are tracking about YOU. The digital tracks you are leaving are very informative, I would guess.
Are we tracking them in the same way?
Insinuating that people are guilty for the deaths of US service members because they bought a Holosun is about as insane/ridiculous as insinuating that buying a Ford is a crime because someone ran someone over once. Honestly, that kind of crap should get you banned form this board.
Ned Christiansen
02-17-20, 23:19
I have gone through various levels of "don't buy Chinese " over the years but it's always a part of my policy.... to the degree possible and the reality is that it is nigh to impossible to have absolutely none of it. It's in everything.
Even without the part about them being the enemy of peace, liberty and human dignity, the quality issues alone are enough. My God every shoe store and Home Depot in this country must have a hole bored straight down to China where there are factories the size of Texas pumping that crap here through said holes. Shame on the Chinese government for..... just about everything they do.
Change My Mind
Nope, I'll only add that those items are manufactured by political prisoners and when they don't meet their quotas the Chinese harvest their organs on a "made to order" basis.
Reagan called the Soviet Union "the evil empire" and to a large extent it was true, and while the Russians did some truly reprehensible shit that was devoid of humanity in a way not seen since 1945, the Chinese are breaking new ground when it comes to souless atrocity.
Human beings has simply become another commodity, not for the work they may provide or even an expendable labor source, they have become little more than a host for the organs on demand market.
A consumer economy based off of chinese goods is bad. I don't like it, don't think consumerism is good anyway, let alone when your consuming your whole damn economy from an untrustworthy communist country.
Outlander Systems
02-18-20, 06:51
>US Labor
I think haircuts, nail salons, and financial consulting are safe for the moment.
Why not? It’s going to BTFO of US labor, too.
[emoji2375][emoji3064]
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"May end up complicit"? May?
I'd bet there's some Talib in some cave in Afghanistan, right now, with a Holosun on his gun. A rugged, reliable Holosun developed in China using American dollars. And has very likely been used to shoot at American servicemen and -women in Afghanistan.
There is probably some ISIS dude in Syria or Iraq, someone associated with Hezbollah, who is similarly equipped.
I'd be willing to bet for every Taliban or ISIS fighter with a Holosun or other Chinese produced, decent quality red dot, there are several with American purchased EOTechs, Aimpoints, and ACOGs they've either taken from US troops or coalition partner nations or simply been provided them with weapons directly by our government.
>US Labor
I think haircuts, nail salons, and financial consulting are safe for the moment.
Omnichannel marketing and consultant services though.
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"May end up complicit"? May?
I'd bet there's some Talib in some cave in Afghanistan, right now, with a Holosun on his gun. A rugged, reliable Holosun developed in China using American dollars. And has very likely been used to shoot at American servicemen and -women in Afghanistan.
Countries have always cloned/copied US issued optics or similar.
Do you really think they wouldn't clone acogs or red dots, even if they (clones) weren't allowed to be sold in the US?
Most guys in caves aren't using rifles one of these would easily go on anyway. :)
I sort of understand the core sentiment, I think some of the examples are a bit extreme.
Good luck getting anything from China now.
teufelhund1918
02-19-20, 06:54
The Chinese Govt is way more crooked than any mafia, cartel, or any other criminal organization on the face of the earth. My big problem with them is their abuse of their own people. We all bitch about our 2nd Amendment Rights and abuse of our other rights... and rightfully so.... but over there, the Chinese people are used for slave labor for the government owned businesses and basically have no rights. Cheap labor and currency manipulation to produce goods with stolen technology is the big reason why the Chinese can offer cheap goods to us. No body can compete with that. The Chinese government has a death grip on their society. As example, look at what is going on with the virus. People who have spoken out have just vanished. Who knows what the real numbers are on the corona virus. How about the Tiananmen Square Massacre? Don't be a Christian either. But, back to the original question, if it was a fair market, the Chinese would still be back in the stone age. It burns me up that people and organizations worldwide gripe about human rights in other places, but seem to turn a deaf ear to China.
Good luck getting anything from China now.
Our log dept still has plenty of meds and other supplies, such as IV catheters from China, unfortunately.
Full text of "Solzhenitsyn: The Voice of Freedom"
https://archive.org/stream/SolzhenitsynTheVoiceOfFreedom/SVF2_djvu.txt
"But just as we feel ourselves your allies here, there
also exists another alliance — at first glance a strange
one, a surprising one— but if you think about it, in
fact, one which is well-grounded and easy to under-
4
stand: this is the alliance between our Communist
leaders and your capitalists.
This alliance is not new. The very famous Armand
Hammer, who is flourishing here today, laid the basis
for this when he made the first exploratory trip into
Russia, still in Lenin's time, in the very first years of
the Revolution. He was extremely successful in this
intelligence mission and since that time for all these
50 years, we observe continuous and steady support
by the businessmen of the West of the Soviet Commu-
nist leaders.
Their clumsy and awkward economy, which could
never overcome its own difTiculties by itself, is contin-
ually getting material and technological assistance.
The major construction projects in the initial five-
year plan were built exclusively with American tech-
nology and materials. Even Stalin recognized that two-
thirds of what was needed Vv-as obtained from the
West. And if today the Soviet Union has powerful
military and police forces — in a country which is by
contemporary standards poor- — they arc used to crush
our movement for freedom in the Soviet Union — and
we have western capital to thank for this also.
Let me remind you of a recent incident which some
of you may have seen in the newspapers, although
others might have missed it: Certain of your business-
men, on their own initiative, established an exhibition
of criminological technolosv in Moscow. This was the
most recent and elaborate technology, which here, in
your country, is used to catch criminals, to bug them,
to spy on them, to photograph them, to tail them, to
identify criminals, This was taken to Moscow to an
exhibition in order that the Soviet KGB agents could
study it, as if not understanding what sort of criminals,
who would be hunted by the KGB,
The Soviet government was extremely interested in
this technology, and decided to purchase it. And your
businessmen were quite willing to sell it. Only when a
few sober voices here raised an uproar against it was
this deal blocked. Only for this reason it didn't take
place. But you have to realize how clever the KGB
is. This technology didn't have to stay twx^ or three
weeks in a Soviet building under Soviet guard. Two
or three nights were enough for the KGB there to look
through it and copy it. And if today, persons are being
hunted down by the best and most advanced tech-
nology, for this, I can also thank your western capi-
talists.
This is something which is almost incomprehensible
to the human mind; that burning greed for profit
which goes beyond all reason, all self-control, all
conscience, only to get money,
I must say that Lenin forelold this whole process.
Lenin, who spent most of his life in the West and not
in Russia, who knew the West much better than Rus-
sia, always wrote and said that the western capitalists
would do anything to strengthen the economv of ihe
USSR. They will compete with each other to sell us
goods cheaper and sell them quicker, so that the
Soviets wil! buy from one rather than from the other.
He said: They will bring it themselves without think-
ing about their future. And, in a difficult moment, at a
party meeting in iVIoscow. he said: ''Comrades, don't
panic, when things go very hard for us, we wall give
a rope to the bourgeoisie, and the bourgeoisie will
hang itself."
Then, Karl Radek. whom you may have heard of,
who was a very resourceful wit, said: "Vladimir
Ilyich, but where are we going to get enough rope to
hang the whole bourgeoisie?"
Lenin eftortlessly replied, 'They'll supply us with
it." "
Our log dept still has plenty of meds and other supplies, such as IV catheters from China, unfortunately.
Those meds and supplies were imported before everything ground to a halt in China...……… Yesterday I had trouble finding vape equipment, all of it comes from China.. I got what I could while I could and don't expect any more for a considerable time.
Good luck getting anything from China now.
Ain’t that the truth? Apple may have to delay release of their new phone by as much as a week.They are only now reopening their retail stores outside of Wuhan, and they said yesterday that they may miss their revenue guidance numbers due to decreased consumer demand in China lately.
Ned Christiansen
02-23-20, 22:26
Speaking of Apple and China and human rights.
I remember a report from 2-3 years ago that an Apple plant or a plant supplying Apple had had 14 suicides in one year because of the basically gulag work conditions. One more reason that I call Apple, "FApple".
Speaking of Apple and China and human rights.
I remember a report from 2-3 years ago that an Apple plant or a plant supplying Apple had had 14 suicides in one year because of the basically gulag work conditions. One more reason that I call Apple, "FApple".
Yeah...we all have to make decisions like that. For me, the problem with virtue signaling is that in this global economy and polarized political environment, it’s tough to know where to stop.
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