View Full Version : 223/5.56 Ammo For Hitting Steel At 500 Yards
TomPenguin5145
02-17-20, 22:10
I am limited to a 500 yard range here. I have a 14.7" BA Barrel. I am not looking to punch 4 leaf clovers. I don't care about terminal ballistics and what it does to gel. I don't really have a lot of experience loading and shooting out to 500 yards. I am talking about hitting steel target, 16" or so, at 500 yards. The object here is to use what I run on the street, which is my 14.7 with a dot on top.
I know everyone favors 77 SMK and the like for "long range" .223/5.56. I know markm has a good load for the 77smk using 21.6 (21.8)gns of H322. What I want to know is would something like a 53 Vmax work just as well or better for this "shorter" distance? I am shooting with a Red Dot/Magnifier. I am kinda thinking the 53 Vmax would shoot flatter then the 77 SMK making it slightly easier to figure out holds.
Or am I just giving this too much thought?
Ned Christiansen
02-17-20, 23:09
That's one of my favorite passtimes, not that I get the time to do it all the time. I gravitate to just about anyone's loading of the 77 SMK and if not that, 69's. I've had outings where I could have got a decent group alternating the two, the POI was so close to the same at 500. I don't think it would be every load every time though. Just so happened that day the CorBon loading of the 69 and the BHA 77 were hitting the same.
Honestly instead of choosing one load and then doing it I think a lot of fun could be had answering your own questions and trying it with a bunch of different loads. I mean theoretically the 77 will have the most advantage at that range. If you want to go heavier the Barnes factory loading of their 85 Match Burner has been very accurate for me.... not sure it has any advantage over the 77 oven in BC 'cause it is blunter in the ogive and not a boat tail. Anyway (talking flatter) even between a 55 and a 77, they track all the way out to 500 within 3-4" of each other.
So that's the stuff I don't know much about, but in shooting at 500 I am an expert in this: missing. My advice then is, don't shoot at a small piece of steel, get a big one. At 500 it doesn't need to be 1/2" AR500. Not sure where the line is because I don't recall shooting mild steel at 500 but I'm darn sure 3/8 would get you by for a long time. So if you could go 36" square and paint little aiming points on it you will learn more quicker missing your painted-on patch but still hitting the steel, than by missing a lot and wondering where they went.
I’ve taken the 75gr American Eagle out to 475 during competitions on a 1-4x scope. For $0.50ish per round it does a really nice job.
The Vmax bullets are awesome. The only downside is if you're dealing with wind. A 77 is going to be much more wind friendly.
If you want the ultimate flat shooting round, I'd try the Black Hills 69gr TMK in 5.56mm pressure load. It smokes anything else in 5.56 at 500 by a long shot. No round I've ever fired at 500 comes close.
I shoot Frontier 68gr 5.56 in matches out to 500m (also with a 1-4x) with good results on 18” wide targets. Its what I’ve settled on as a favorite, currently. Its a little over $.50 a round. Anything with a 68gr+ bullet is pretty good for medium ranges.
Truthfully, any good ammo in any weight will be fine, but you have to account for wind more with the lighter bullets. Its a 3 moa target.
As markm said, the 69gr TMK is both flat and slippery.
So that's the stuff I don't know much about, but in shooting at 500 I am an expert in this: missing. My advice then is, don't shoot at a small piece of steel, get a big one. At 500 it doesn't need to be 1/2" AR500. Not sure where the line is because I don't recall shooting mild steel at 500 but I'm darn sure 3/8 would get you by for a long time. So if you could go 36" square and paint little aiming points on it you will learn more quicker missing your painted-on patch but still hitting the steel, than by missing a lot and wondering where they went.
Thanks for sharing that tip. A buddy and I have been kicking around doing some 500 yard shooting and feedback without frequent trips down has been something I was trying to piece together.
TomPenguin5145
02-18-20, 13:46
I would love to just get factory loads but its not as easy to get up here. I did get my hands on some of the Frontier 68bthp awhile back, 20 rounds. It seemed like a decent round the price but I have been unable to find it again. I find it alot easier to find the bullets and load up "clones" of some of those rounds.
There is an event coming up which is a competition. I am going to be using my duty rifle as part of the challenge. I don't carry a 308 bolt gun on the street. I have shot from the 500 yard line using my duty rifle and .223 55gn VMAX. I had a spotter and was walked on target in a few rounds. Once I knew the hold, I aimed at the same part of the berm and was getting hit after hit after hit. Odd are I won't have a spotter this time so I am trying to make it easier for myself. Am I overthinking it?
Here is a photo from the 400 yard line during a carbine clinic with a lot of overgrowth.
60928
As far as 69SMK; I had a load that was shooting .75" groups with a velocity of 2915fps out of an 18" barrel (5.56 1-7). 26.0gn of Varget lit off by a Sellier & Bellot SR. No idea how it shoots from my 14.7" (5.56 1-7). I know I lose about 120-150fps between the 18" and 14.7". So calling it 2750 fps the Hornady Ballistic Calc shows at 500 yards it still has 1486 fps, had dropped 55.6 inches (10.6 MOA) which is about 10 inches less then the 55vmax rounds I was shooting. (No calculation for the shooting angle included at this point)
Odd are I won't have a spotter this time so I am trying to make it easier for myself. Am I overthinking it?
No. A spotter is the most valuable thing in long range shooting. I could dump 20 rounds just a few inches off the edge of a 500 yard target and not know it. One correction from the spotter, and like you said.... hit after hit.
If you can practice seeing a 3.5 mil holdover, you can already know where most .223 rounds will hit at 500. (at least at our elevation.)
turnburglar
02-18-20, 22:01
M193
the 55gr good stuff.
TomPenguin5145
03-01-20, 11:28
Went out and checked my 69gn SMK/Varget load and it shoots well. POI is the same as 55gn Urban TAP at 50 and 200 yards. Chrono shows 2758fps avg from the 10 shot group.
Touch of swipe on the brass and the primer is starting to flow around the pin, looks similar to fired M193 casings.
Went out and checked my 69gn SMK/Varget load and it shoots well. POI is the same as 55gn Urban TAP at 50 and 200 yards. Chrono shows 2758fps avg from the 10 shot group.
Touch of swipe on the brass and the primer is starting to flow around the pin, looks similar to fired M193 casings.
Is that a compressed load?
TomPenguin5145
03-03-20, 17:51
Is that a compressed load?
Yes it is.
Yeah. I would have guessed so. I not suggesting someone try, but I don't think you can get enough Varget in a .223 case to cause damage.
TomPenguin5145
03-05-20, 04:08
Yeah. I would agree with that. 26.0 is listed as a max charge for .223/69SMK. The first time I started getting near max loads and heard/felt the powder crunching I got all weird about it. I did find that compressed loads of Varget shoot way better then non-compressed loaded...at least in my rifles. Varget seems to work well for velocity and acceptable accuracy in my rifles but what a pain to load. Have to trickle charge each to get to the final weight. I have had good luck with H322 and its easy to load but I just don't get the velocity from it. I started getting away from ball powders due to temp swings. -30 in the winter to near 90 in the summer.
I have had good luck with H322 and its easy to load but I just don't get the velocity from it.
You can push it over max if you work up. XBR 8208 is also good at getting velocity without the Varget headaches. Again, you have to work it up an push it over published max to get it to sing.
You can push it over max if you work up. XBR 8208 is also good at getting velocity without the Varget headaches. Again, you have to work it up an push it over published max to get it to sing.
As much as I can make Varget work for 223 loads, I much prefer XBR for my 69 and 77gr loads. I’ve had a lot of joy with the Nosler CC bullet.
As much as I can make Varget work for 223 loads, I much prefer XBR for my 69 and 77gr loads. I’ve had a lot of joy with the Nosler CC bullet.
I just crank em out on the Dillon 550b. I take the Varget suffering for .308 only.
I just crank em out on the Dillon 550b. I take the Varget suffering for .308 only.
Yup, likewise. Occasionally I'll hand load 223 with Varget when I feel like aggravating myself!
This thread seems an adequate place to ask this, and I may be overthinking somewhere.
I'm shooting two .223/5.56 rifles, my 16" AR, 1:8 barrel, and a CZ527, 1:9 barrel. The AR will do fine with what I ask it to do with generic 55 gr ball, M193, or M855. It actually seems to like M855 a bit more than other stuff. I've been limited to 300 yards, but I'm wanting to start stretching it out a bit further. The CZ was bought more for coyotes and vermin, and for factory ammo at 300-330 yards, it shoots Fiocchi 55 gr Poly tipped ammo really well. (It actually shoots Fiocchi 55 gr FMJ really well, too, but the FMJ chronographs 180 fps slower than the poly in the CZ, and about 150 fps under Federal .223 in the AR.)
I'm a notorious cheap ass. I don't want to dump a buck a round for just smashing steel at 500 yards, at least if I don't have to. Is the difference between 68-69 gr ammo going to be that much from the 55 gr my bolt gun is already shooting well at that range? It's just been since I bought this particular gun that I've been shooting .223, and wind does a lot more to it than killing deer with a .308, so I'm trying to sort it out.
Consistent ammo and a good spotter are all you need. If you're able to get even sub 2 MOA and have a IPSC size target, you'll be able to ring it all day. It's just a matter of figuring out the come up.
If there's a good mound right behind your target, you can spot for yourself and get on target.
(:
Mounds, of any type- particularly those not covered with grass/weeds, are in short supply in most of Kansas.
I’m at the point of hauling dirt/fill to the North pasture and creating berms to have any chance of seeing misses.
A moderate project and considerable PITA.
(:
Mounds, of any type- particularly those not covered with grass/weeds, are in short supply in most of Kansas.
I’m at the point of hauling dirt/fill to the North pasture and creating berms to have any chance of seeing misses.
A moderate project and considerable PITA.
Ain't that the truth. I recently decided to change my zero up a bit. Double checked zero, and started moving back. I've got an 8" plate with a stand I built set way out yonder around 650 yards from my neighbor's house, so the option is walk out through the wheat with the rifle to change distance. 330 yards I was golden. Moved to 375 and it fell apart because I could not figure where the heck I was at since there's a bunch of grass behind it.
You could load up our slammer ammo, 62 grain BTHP Midsouth shooters at .10 a round will work for 500 yards all day long. Choose your favorite powder and shoot cheap pills to 500.
PB
Ain't that the truth. I recently decided to change my zero up a bit. Double checked zero, and started moving back. I've got an 8" plate with a stand I built set way out yonder around 650 yards from my neighbor's house, so the option is walk out through the wheat with the rifle to change distance. 330 yards I was golden. Moved to 375 and it fell apart because I could not figure where the heck I was at since there's a bunch of grass behind it.
It is really night and day having a berm. Our 500 does not. But 6- 750-900 and the 1,000 has this god giving blessing of a mound for us. 1,300 as well. Get the bulldozer out.
PB
(:
Mounds, of any type- particularly those not covered with grass/weeds, are in short supply in most of Kansas.
I’m at the point of hauling dirt/fill to the North pasture and creating berms to have any chance of seeing misses.
A moderate project and considerable PITA.
A simple berm or bay can work wonders for flat-landers.
They don't necessarily have to be big or expensive to be effective and safe.
Some ideas that should put your mind at ease. They're always better the higher they are, plus a cap or vertical wall will capture ricochets (which will happen). A trench plate mounted vertically or sloped toward the shooter should catch most ricochets. The Air Force has some interesting ranges in semi-urban areas to fire machineguns for the base security force.
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Dr. Bullseye
03-20-20, 11:19
I am limited to a 500 yard range here. I have a 14.7" BA Barrel. I am not looking to punch 4 leaf clovers. I don't care about terminal ballistics and what it does to gel. I don't really have a lot of experience loading and shooting out to 500 yards. I am talking about hitting steel target, 16" or so, at 500 yards. The object here is to use what I run on the street, which is my 14.7 with a dot on top.
I know everyone favors 77 SMK and the like for "long range" .223/5.56. I know markm has a good load for the 77smk using 21.6 (21.8)gns of H322. What I want to know is would something like a 53 Vmax work just as well or better for this "shorter" distance? I am shooting with a Red Dot/Magnifier. I am kinda thinking the 53 Vmax would shoot flatter then the 77 SMK making it slightly easier to figure out holds.
Or am I just giving this too much thought?
I can hit at 500 yards with my Ultradyne irons and anything a gun shop sells in the way of ammo. I doubt if the limiting factor is ammo.
I can hit at 500 yards with my Ultradyne irons and anything a gun shop sells in the way of ammo. I doubt if the limiting factor is ammo.
You should have seen us one evening in diminishing light. I brought out some reloaded M196 pull down tracers and we shot them at 500. Holy smokes it was funny to watch them fly horribly. One actually curved into the wind. I think I got one on steel. But shitty bullets do fly poorly.
Some of my barrels genuinely hate M855.
Some of my barrels genuinely hate M855.
I thought all barrels hated that crappy bullet.
I thought all barrels hated that crappy bullet.
My Noveske Afghan “Recce” gun can keep most of them on E-types at 500. Others just launch it in the general direction.
I'll never forget spotting for Pappabear years ago. He was shooting a 7.62 LMT MWS with some dog crap imported surplus ammo that literally has shooting like 8 MOA.
Bullet trace was going everywhere, and I asked him if he was shooting with his eyes closed. I don't know how you could make ammo that bad.
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