View Full Version : SHTF Optics
MrHandsome
02-20-20, 06:26
What is the best shtf optic? Something etched is ideal as it can be used even if batteries are inaccessible. Weight is also a concern. What do we all think?
Inkslinger
02-20-20, 06:30
Iron sights.
By the time your batteries run out, you are either dead via gunfire or disease and it's the next owners problem and he/she will probably be dead from the same before that.
MrHandsome
02-20-20, 06:39
Wow very optimistic haha
Wow very optimistic hahaRealistic, not pessimistic. Aimpoint T2 battery last years. Put 3 or 4 in the pistolgrip compartment and you're good for a decade. Have the aimpoint on a good QD mount and steel BUIS. Exceptionally unlikey to survive a decade that requires a rifle to get through the day.
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Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 or 1-6 scope. No batteries. Very bright fiber optic reticle. Very rugged scope. That or one of the fiber optic Acogs made by Trijicon.
It depends on exactly what role you're looking to fill. Mgnfified optic? Trijicon ACOGs probably reign supreme here, though some of the LPVOs would work just as well. For reflex/red dot, Aimpoints will get a lot of votes, but Mepro's M21 isn't a bad option for batteryless. After that, I'm fond of EOTech, but you'll really need to stock the batteries deep in that case.
By the time your batteries run out, you are either dead via gunfire or disease and it's the next owners problem and he/she will probably be dead from the same before that.
I agree. Aimpoint it is. ;)
MrHandsome
02-20-20, 07:57
How is the aimpoint under magnification?
I know there’s some debate over led vs hws magnified.
I kindof buy everything with an eye to "what if..." and settled on an NX8, capped. It works with or without batteries, and I would wager that it can take as much of a beating as irons, depending on what exactly happens to constitute that beating.
MikhailBarracuda91
02-20-20, 08:40
This is a fun one. Given your parameters I'd say any acog would work great. But honestly I'm going to echo what others said. Iron sights always work well, and the battery life and track record of aimpoint rds is great.
The trijicon MRO with a steel buis is probably the best budget setup tho
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What is the best shtf optic? Something etched is ideal as it can be used even if batteries are inaccessible. Weight is also a concern. What do we all think?
No it isn't, not for shtf optic.
Razor. Known to be durable AF and has an etched reticle so it doesn’t matter whether or not you have batteries. Also if it’s truly SHTF, you may very well need magnification and decent performance at 1x.
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Razor. Known to be durable AF and has an etched reticle so it doesn’t matter whether or not you have batteries. Also if it’s truly SHTF, you may very well need magnification and decent performance at 1x.
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Razor has a wire reticle and is known to have issues related to this, among other things.
Gen 3 razor is still an unknown, but does use an etched reticle.
Define “SHTF”. Then we can talk.
SHTF: somebody breaks in my house to hurt my family, shots are ten yards max? Aimpoint Micro rides my rifle to fill that role.
SHTF: there is civil unrest, roving gangs come to the subdivision and you have dudes posted along funnel points ready to take shots of necessary? Maybe 1-8x Nightforce or 1-10x Vortex Razor.
SHTF: Defending the ranch from drug cartels after there is no rule of law? Maybe a 5-25 Bender on top of a .300 or .338 to poke a hole in the radiator from half a mile.
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How is the aimpoint under magnification?
I know there’s some debate over led vs hws magnified.
The Aimpoint T2 with magnifier is much better than the T1. I can't speak to any Aimpoint other than the micro.
batteriless, so i go trijicon: acog, rmr dual-illum, or their LPVO if they appeal to you
there are others like mepro, leupold prismatic, seeall, or any standard scope with a wire/etched reticle that can function without batteries
in some shtf scenarios, powered red-dots (ie aimpoints, eotechs, etc) may not be the best option
Razor has a wire reticle and is known to have issues related to this, among other things.
Gen 3 razor is still an unknown, but does use an etched reticle.
I’ve never heard of that but I’ll have to look around.
The Aimpoint T2 with magnifier is much better than the T1. I can't speak to any Aimpoint other than the micro.
Very true. The T1 is garbage with a magnifier.
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robbins290
02-20-20, 10:50
I run irons for "SHTF" , I do have a burris 3X scope that could be used. about a year of solid abuse in my patrol truck and it never lost zero, i would wait a couple more years before i recomend it. I would go irons my self. they are more rugged then optics.
MrHandsome
02-20-20, 11:00
Definitely would run mbuis regardless of the optic chosen. Leaning towards acog + RMR, AccuPoint or T2 + magnifier.
I had to click on this thread just to see how quickly the LPVO gays would chime in. :sarcastic:
pointblank4445
02-20-20, 11:04
Razor has a wire reticle and is known to have issues related to this, among other things.
Gen 3 razor is still an unknown, but does use an etched reticle.
I'm calling it now, there will be a lot of Razor Gen 3's for sale after the initial release. It may be a decent optic, but I think their marketing machine doesn't get enough credit and the fair-weather LPVO users with limited experience are going to be disappointed that this won't be the end-all, be-all it's assumed to be.
RE: irons as the "SHTF".
While I've used every major scope MFG's customer service multiple times (S&B, NF, Kahles, Leupold, etc.), I've had more "deadlined" irons that broke from minor "knocked out of the gun rack" level stuff than anything else. Truth be told, I don't think I've ever had an optic go completely deadline...unusable at any level. Sure, some with dramatic capability reduction, but still viable for use.
A front sight with a broken/missing front post; a folding front sight that flops up and down; a rear sight that's bent/canted off 10 degrees....all worthless.
I run irons for "SHTF" , I do have a burris 3X scope that could be used. about a year of solid abuse in my patrol truck and it never lost zero, i would wait a couple more years before i recomend it. I would go irons my self. they are more rugged then optics.
Maybe your irons are more rugged than crap optics like a Burris, but iron sights are less rugged than quality red dots or LPVOs.
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Grand58742
02-20-20, 11:28
What about EMP attacks?
Iron sights...
right, but with the title of thread being "SHTF Optics", i understood that BUIS are a given
Keep it on track, keep it civil.
robbins290
02-20-20, 11:34
deleted, forgot to add the quotes.
robbins290
02-20-20, 11:35
deleted
Inkslinger
02-20-20, 11:35
title of thread is "SHTF Optics", so use of BUIS aren't in question and are a given
As in a mechanism to facilitate aiming at a target? Sure they are. If you’re going to the trouble of worrying about SHTF scenarios, nothing is more survivable than a FSB and carry handle rear. They can handle any engagements in the effective range of the rifle.
The Russians make...or made at least, a 1x sight that had the option of either an illuminated red dot or an etched black dot that could be used without batteries. I think it was called the PK-AS. I’m sure the optic itself doesn’t compare favorably to western optics but the idea of a 1x reflex sight with a simple non-illuminated “black dot” option seems like an interesting idea.
Don't Tread On Me
02-20-20, 11:59
The Russians make...or made at least, a 1x sight that had the option of either an illuminated red dot or an etched black dot that could be used without batteries. I think it was called the PK-AS. I’m sure the optic itself doesn’t compare favorably to western optics but the idea of a 1x reflex sight with a simple non-illuminated “black dot” option seems like an interesting idea.
Like the Primary Arms Cyclops?
IMO the Primary Arms are viable options for a shtf optic, glass is not great but for the money not bad, rugged, etched reticle daylight bright and cheap enough you can buy an extra for a backup.
robbins290
02-20-20, 12:03
Cricle 10, i had one of those POSP scopes for one of my AK's. I would agree that they are rugged enough for SHFT. I sold it for the price of a new AK, i regret it but oh well.
batteriless, so i go trijicon: acog, rmr dual-illum, or their LPVO if they appeal to you
there are others like mepro, leupold prismatic, seeall, or any standard scope with a wire/etched reticle that can function without batteries
in some shtf scenarios, powered red-dots (ie aimpoints, eotechs, etc) may not be the best option
ACOG is pretty close to ideal... Even when the tritium goes dead in the reticle you can tape a glow stick against the fiber optic and still have a lit reticle indoors. With an objective cap you can close, the lit reticle acts sort of like an occluded eye gunsight that works pretty well a contact shot distances. Once zeroed, no dialing or moving parts to break, fairly lightweight, pretty hard to destroy.
MountainRaven
02-20-20, 12:43
What about EMP attacks?
What about them?
What about them?
Mental masturbation at best.
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No it isn't, not for shtf optic.
Weight is always a concern. Heavier rifles handle slower and if you're going to be carrying it (SHTF and worried about how long it lasts, yeah, you're going to be carrying it), weight obviously matters.
Hell I'd say for a SHTF optic weight matters more than it would for non-SHTF for those of us regular type folks who are the types to bother asking this question
Mental masturbation at best.
Sounds about right
Form follows function, use dictates tool.
In home, across the street; RD and BUIS. I use a lot of MRO’s on carbines.
100 yds and out; LPVO.
At ranch/extended distance (300+); mo’ glass-2-10X/3-15X/etc.
Nothing’s etched in stone.
Using lowest common denominator (RD/BUIS) I’m not gonna just roll over whatever the scenario.
Vortex Razor 1-6x/1-10x with reptilia 90º RMR mounted on top and a offset mounted aimpoint t2 should be gtg
WickedWillis
02-20-20, 13:06
ACOG fiber optic models, TA31F, etc.
Quality LPVO with an etched reticle
backup or offset irons. Last you forever.
titsonritz
02-20-20, 13:26
If only we had a forum section for optics.
Dirk Williams
02-20-20, 14:06
Irons on any of a dozen 308 battle rifles. I'm high dessert, need the ability to stretch it out, with consequences, upon arrival.
Why would a t2, be better then a t1?
Dirk
robbins290
02-20-20, 14:12
That make sense. I am the other way. Deep woods all round.
I would suggest a ACOG for a optic. one with a quick discount incase it did break while "using" it. And had to use the back up irons.
Irons and ACOGs suck for SHTF for the same reasons the suck now.
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WickedWillis
02-20-20, 14:26
Irons and ACOGs suck for SHTF for the same reasons the suck now.
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Eye relief sucks, the reticles can bloom, etc. They don't run on batteries though, and that's the most important thing I could think of in a SHTF situation. If everything lines up perfectly, that T1 battery will last you 5 years, if you live that long in whatever situation we are dreaming up today.
Do the snowflakes think they are going to head to the mountains and survive hundreds of gunfights spanning decades?
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Like the Primary Arms Cyclops?
Oh yeah, totally forgot about those. I have a PA 2.5x prism actually and like it quite a bit.
Eye relief sucks, the reticles can bloom, etc. They don't run on batteries though, and that's the most important thing I could think of in a SHTF situation. If everything lines up perfectly, that T1 battery will last you 5 years, if you live that long in whatever situation we are dreaming up today.
Eye relief isn't a problem on TA11s or TA33s. Plus, you can back off eye relief on a 4x ACOG if you don't mind the loss of FOV.
Travelingchild
02-20-20, 15:26
Do the snowflakes think they are going to head to the mountains and survive hundreds of gunfights spanning decades?
If there's a Starbucks in them, there mountains & Uber is available, Why wouldn't they?:neo:
robbins290
02-20-20, 15:30
Do the snowflakes think they are going to head to the mountains and survive hundreds of gunfights spanning decades?
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Only if there parents are there for them to depend on.
51 posts and I don’t believe anyone’s mentioned the CompM4/s
Shame
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re acogs: bought my first (of many acog and rmr dual) in 1991, and used them on my steel plate range which runs 25 to 1000yds. i have found the 4x acogs useful at all ranges out to 800yds, and i can makes pretty consistent hits to around 400 with the rmr.
MikhailBarracuda91
02-20-20, 15:46
51 posts and I don’t believe anyone’s mentioned the CompM4/s
Shame
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's too biiiiiiiig lol
In all seriousness its probably the best rds to have in the USA if some bologna went down
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That's what's happens you know--seen it on T.V.
Do the snowflakes think they are going to head to the mountains and survive hundreds of gunfights spanning decades?
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Do the snowflakes think they are going to head to the mountains and survive hundreds of gunfights spanning decades?
Could be you lug the thing around unnecessarily for awhile and bang it up in the process and maybe need it one time, in the future, after banging it up up for awhile.
-- I guess you could plan on remembering to turn it on just before your hundreds of gunfights and that's why your battery life is directly linked to the number f gunfights you are in? IDK. You do you.
I had to click on this thread just to see how quickly the LPVO gays would chime in. :sarcastic:
You must be doing something very...interesting...with those scope tubes if this is where your mind goes
Umm, while we’re at it we might as well start a zombie sub thread. Halfway there, may as well go full retard.
WickedWillis
02-20-20, 16:11
Do the snowflakes think they are going to head to the mountains and survive hundreds of gunfights spanning decades?
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That term is still used in 2020?
If there's a Starbucks in them, there mountains & Uber is available, Why wouldn't they?:neo:
Starbucks? Please.
Argo Tea.
Red dot with some extra batteries (T1/2, PRO, Comp m4/5, or MRO) have all proven themselves, and will last years if left on. Also a quality set of BUIS or fixed irons is a must (MBUS PRO, KAC, DD, etc..). a 3x magnifier would be nice to have handy to do a little recon before movement. LPVO, meh. Maybe if you live out west but if you live in a congested area or a densely wooded spot that 50 hour battery life really limits your effectiveness under 100 meters... That outweighs the benefits of the magnification to me. Might as well just have the magnifier.
I'm not giving the correct answer until SHTF is properly defined.
My primary HD AR wears an M4S, and I don't see that changing any time soon. I have "lighter" optics on other ARs.
That term is still used in 2020?
Which term? Survive? Gunfight?
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If only we had a forum section for optics.
51 posts and I don’t believe anyone’s mentioned the CompM4/s
Get a Comp M4s and a 6920. Easy to use, won’t break, etc.
Or LGBTVO for holding down a fixed position with early warning to increase chances of standoff, or conducting offensive operations.
I'm not giving the correct answer until SHTF is properly defined.
My primary HD AR wears an M4S, and I don't see that changing any time soon. I have "lighter" optics on other ARs.
Define “SHTF”. Then we can talk.
SHTF: somebody breaks in my house to hurt my family, shots are ten yards max? Aimpoint Micro rides my rifle to fill that role.
SHTF: there is civil unrest, roving gangs come to the subdivision and you have dudes posted along funnel points ready to take shots of necessary? Maybe 1-8x Nightforce or 1-10x Vortex Razor.
SHTF: Defending the ranch from drug cartels after there is no rule of law? Maybe a 5-25 Bender on top of a .300 or .338 to poke a hole in the radiator from half a mile.
These things.
Wow very optimistic haha
Do you think I’m going to let you keep your food and water just because you have a rifle?
I’ve been shooting a P4Xi most lately. Maybe 4k of my last 7k rounds. I also have Aimpoints, Zeiss, Leupold, T5Xi, Irons, etc. Do with that what you will.
Alright, will check on this later-drifting towards the rapids-or already in them
Lost River
02-20-20, 18:14
I had to click on this thread just to see how quickly the LPVO gays would chime in. :sarcastic:
:rolleyes:
I ran an illuminated Leupold 1.5-5 for years in the middle east starting back in 06, and had zero issues.
Of course a bunch of guys talked out of their ass back then too...
https://i.imgur.com/O0BKBG8.jpg
Then again many of those same guys were frequently asking me to "take a look at that dude", ID something, etc...
The 4X ACOG works fine too. I have used one from contact distance to 800 yards and don't really have an issue with it. Is it as fast as an RDO at 30 yards and in? No of course not, but it works quite well, and if the person is a competent shooter, it is an extremely effective tool. I would be extremely happy to have a TAO1 on an M4 in your basic SHTF situation. The ACOG is a very solid design, and while these days I would choose a Nightforce 2.5-10 or something similar, I would not consider myself poorly armed at all with my ancient Colt/ACOG combo.
Frankly the skill of the guy behind the gun is light years more important, and always will be.
If you’re going to the trouble of worrying about SHTF scenarios, nothing is more survivable than a FSB and carry handle rear. They can handle any engagements in the effective range of the rifle.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm.
ACOG is pretty close to ideal... Even when the tritium goes dead in the reticle you can tape a glow stick against the fiber optic and still have a lit reticle indoors. With an objective cap you can close, the lit reticle acts sort of like an occluded eye gunsight that works pretty well a contact shot distances. Once zeroed, no dialing or moving parts to break, fairly lightweight, pretty hard to destroy.
and it’s proven in a “work” environment
vicious_cb
02-21-20, 08:44
What about EMP attacks?
I have a microwave full of aimpoints for just that occasion sitting my basement. :cool:
Dr. Bullseye
02-21-20, 11:50
Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 or 1-6 scope. No batteries. Very bright fiber optic reticle. Very rugged scope. That or one of the fiber optic Acogs made by Trijicon.
Better idea: for that money I'll just by tickets for me and my family to Hawaii when SHTF.
Dr. Bullseye
02-21-20, 11:52
Iron sights.
I second this.
Magnified, ACOG. Non magnified, Aimpoint. We have ACOGs in the armory that are over 15 years old and are still usable; I doubt the firearms guys have ever sent them in to get serviced. In fact I'm sure they haven't because we would never get them back.
… and the next couple of owners will appreciate it, too!
MrHandsome
02-21-20, 13:31
Magnification is definitely a must. Aimpoint would have to be paired with a 3x magnifier.
For headshot on zombies, yes. Otherwise...not necessarily. :)
I agree. For target I.D. outside of 50 plus yards, magnification is nice. For slaying bodies in bulk, we'll run an RDS out to 500 yards with hold over.
Straight Shooter
02-21-20, 17:37
I agree. For target I.D. outside of 50 plus yards, magnification is nice. For slaying bodies in bulk, we'll run an RDS out to 500 yards with hold over.
What size dot for this Mark?
Magnified, ACOG. Non magnified, Aimpoint. We have ACOGs in the armory that are over 15 years old and are still usable; I doubt the firearms guys have ever sent them in to get serviced. In fact I'm sure they haven't because we would never get them back.
Tritium doesn't last that long so I'm guessing you're wrong.
Tritium doesn't last that long so I'm guessing you're wrong.
I’ve had a hard time convincing my guys that optics with batteries are superior to tritium. They say “but muh gun don’t depend on batteries”. One dude had an ACOG’s tritium die in four years. Had to go back for a couple weeks. Meanwhile, I’ve got an Aimpoint that was on for 7 years before battery replacement. Literally one spare battery would last longer than ideal tritium life.
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While I'm partial to batteries over fiber optics & tritium myself, it might be noted that many batteries have a pretty limited guaranteed shelf life. Doesn't mean they won't last much longer in practice but I wouldn't expect them to stay good for a lifetime.
SeriousStudent
02-21-20, 19:56
:rolleyes:
I ran an illuminated Leupold 1.5-5 for years in the middle east starting back in 06, and had zero issues.
Of course a bunch of guys talked out of their ass back then too...
https://i.imgur.com/O0BKBG8.jpg
Then again many of those same guys were frequently asking me to "take a look at that dude", ID something, etc...
The 4X ACOG works fine too. I have used one from contact distance to 800 yards and don't really have an issue with it. Is it as fast as an RDO at 30 yards and in? No of course not, but it works quite well, and if the person is a competent shooter, it is an extremely effective tool. I would be extremely happy to have a TAO1 on an M4 in your basic SHTF situation. The ACOG is a very solid design, and while these days I would choose a Nightforce 2.5-10 or something similar, I would not consider myself poorly armed at all with my ancient Colt/ACOG combo.
Frankly the skill of the guy behind the gun is light years more important, and always will be.
Here endth the lesson. :)
MrHandsome
02-21-20, 19:57
Given that batteries go bad in storage after time, tritium runs out..... Etched will always be etched
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