View Full Version : Is the weight worth it
I have one of the early ELW BCM 11.5 uppers (pre cold hammer forge) . The OG barrel has 10k+ rounds through it. The best accuracy I every got out of that ELW barrel was 2 moa but on average it was 3 moa rifle and I have tried at least 15 types of ammo from 55 to 77gr including black hills 50gr tsx and 77gr mod-1.
I was able to pick up a DD 11.5 barrel for under $150 and decide to do the swap for testing purposes. The BCM barrel weighs in at 16 oz and the DD weighs in at 20 oz. and is a government profile.
The DD after a 30 round mag for testing is max 1.7 moa and min 1 moa with a solid average around 1.5 moa. The gun feels significantly different with those 4 oz up front due to the profile. Not a big deal but having run that gun for thousands of rounds its noticeable. I am a firm believer that most gas guns need to settle in and at around 300 rounds you will get your accuracy potential. I'm not there yet with only about a 100 rounds through the barrel but I would guess based on experience with other DD barrels that it will settle in at 1.25 moa on average with decent ammo and 1 moa if you worked hard and found the right ammo.
The question of the day is the 4 oz worth cutting the accuracy in half? Or would you rather have that handy ELW feel?
In the end, does it matter? For what you are using it for is the question.
In the end, does it matter? For what you are using it for is the question.Exactly! What's the goal?
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Personally, I'd say that level of increase is worth the few more ounces. Ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain, I get it, but at some point you just need to accept that there will always been lighter options that you don't have.
The original goal was that BCM barrel was on its way out and had an opportunity at a cheap replacement that I knew would be more accurate. I do miss the maneuverability up front though.
I like the way a government profile barrel shoots. The extra couple of ounces out front really keeps the dot from dancing so much.
I really like the way those ELW barrels handle everything but shooting. I had a couple and they weren't any better in the accuracy department than yours.
I have both the ELWF and standard profile BCM 11.5
Accuracy is a toss up. I prefer running a can on the standard profile.
4oz is nothing
I like the way a government profile barrel shoots. The extra couple of ounces out front really keeps the dot from dancing so much.
Interesting
turnburglar
02-22-20, 12:25
I wouldn't bother swapping barrels. If your BCM already has 10k through it, I would keep on until it won't maintain 3 moa anymore. If it was your 18" comp gun, my answer would be different; but for shorties I don't fret group sizes. My 10.5 can hit 12" plates at 300m that's all I need to know.
Dr. Bullseye
02-22-20, 13:07
Was the 4 oz the straw that broke the camel's back? What is the weight of the whole rife? Improved accuracy at the expense of 4 oz sounds pretty good to me.
Was the 4 oz the straw that broke the camel's back? What is the weight of the whole rife? Improved accuracy at the expense of 4 oz sounds pretty good to me.
7lb 2oz with rds, aimpoint magnifier twist mount, bcm vert grip, scout & pressure pad, BUS, 2 sling mounts.
The accuracy is absolutely worth the accuracy IMO. 100%
I wouldn't bother swapping barrels. If your BCM already has 10k through it, I would keep on until it won't maintain 3 moa anymore. If it was your 18" comp gun, my answer would be different; but for shorties I don't fret group sizes. My 10.5 can hit 12" plates at 300m that's all I need to know.
Yup.
IMO, the current barrel has acceptable accuracy for what I use an 11.5 for.
Eta: I hate gov profile, and avoid it, if a more modern profile fits my use with acceptable precision. If I want more weight up front, I’ll use a suppressor.
Just to be clear the barrel has already been swapped over to the DD.
vicious_cb
02-22-20, 14:20
I think people shoot too much off the bench...
Just to be clear the barrel has already been swapped over to the DD.
In that case, my laziness would win out.
I think people shoot too much off the bench...
I agree. Nothing wrong with working on precision, but when using an 11.5” for its intended purpose, I’m not seeing the difference between 2 and 3 minutes.
vicious_cb
02-22-20, 15:07
In that case, my laziness would win out.
I agree. Nothing wrong with working on precision, but when using an 11.5” for its intended purpose, I’m not seeing the difference between 2 and 3 minutes.
All Im saying is 2 vs 3 MOA out of an SBR is academic esp with a red dot. Im not saying its impossible to shoot tiny groups with that set up cause its certainly possible, Ive done it with hell of a lot of concentration and eye strain but how relevant is that for its intended purpose?
It's by no means a bench gun but you need to know what you're working with. When shooting off hand that moa number grows exponentially. The more accurate it is, the smaller that circle is. If you need to make a shot and you know the gun is accurate it gives you faith in your equipment. JMHO.
Since you already swapped out the barrel, and you're happy with it's accuracy, just use 20 round magazines. Less ten rounds equals 4 ounces. Simple solution.
Since you already swapped out the barrel, and you're happy with it's accuracy, just use 20 round magazines. Less ten rounds equals 4 ounces. Simple solution.
LoL. That's never going to happen.
7lb 2oz with rds, aimpoint magnifier twist mount, bcm vert grip, scout & pressure pad, BUS, 2 sling mounts.
I would trade the added weight for accuracy. My shooting skill offhand needs work (range time has been hard to come by lately) and I wouldn’t want to stack that on top of a lack in mechanical accuracy.
Personally if I found the weight to be too much I would start taking off accessories or look for other areas of weight savings (optics, lights, rail, etc.).
I think people shoot too much off the bench...
On one hand, I completely agree with you. On the other, I totally disagree.
I'm not sure that everyone here has enough property to be in the woods or out on their land patrolling with a rifle. Everyone doesn't have a range in their backyard, side yard and front yard. Some people actually have to pack up their vehicles and drive to get to a range, play the range rules, and only have the option of sitting or standing with a shooting table/ bench in front of them.
I think the eternal drive for accuracy is skewed by a lot of the BS reports of accuracy that we see on the internet. Guys talking about M193 shooting 1/2" groups with irons or RDO at 200 yards are worth as much as the guys complaining that their Wolf ammo is only grouping at 3" off a bench and using a 10X scope.
Todays "group" stories are yesterdays fishing stories. The worst part is that some people read these lies and think they should be able to get close to the same results.
I have one of the early ELW BCM 11.5 uppers (pre cold hammer forge) . The OG barrel has 10k+ rounds through it. The best accuracy I every got out of that ELW barrel was 2 moa but on average it was 3 moa rifle and I have tried at least 15 types of ammo from 55 to 77gr including black hills 50gr tsx and 77gr mod-1.
I was able to pick up a DD 11.5 barrel for under $150 and decide to do the swap for testing purposes. The BCM barrel weighs in at 16 oz and the DD weighs in at 20 oz. and is a government profile.
The DD after a 30 round mag for testing is max 1.7 moa and min 1 moa with a solid average around 1.5 moa. The gun feels significantly different with those 4 oz up front due to the profile. Not a big deal but having run that gun for thousands of rounds its noticeable. I am a firm believer that most gas guns need to settle in and at around 300 rounds you will get your accuracy potential. I'm not there yet with only about a 100 rounds through the barrel but I would guess based on experience with other DD barrels that it will settle in at 1.25 moa on average with decent ammo and 1 moa if you worked hard and found the right ammo.
The question of the day is the 4 oz worth cutting the accuracy in half? Or would you rather have that handy ELW feel?
Is this on a pistol or a carbine? What sort of optic are you using, and what sort of ammo?
Is this on a pistol or a carbine? What sort of optic are you using, and what sort of ammo?
NFA lower. Optic is generally a 4-12x sometimes a 2-10x. As I mentioned black hills 50gr tsx & 77gr red box along with remanu 75gr. match, GMM, Fusion, TAP, V-Max & super pro, PMC x-tac match & green tip, Razor Core 77gr, Magtech 77gr. HPBT & CBC 62gr and some others I dont keep on hand because none of my guns like them.
Coal Dragger
02-26-20, 14:46
Well you’re using a magnified optic for most of your shooting, which indicates you are after some level of repeatable precision. So given that the DD barrel meets that goal of making bullets go closer to your aiming point I’d say 4oz is a very minor price to pay.
Optic is generally a 4-12x sometimes a 2-10x.
I think this is the key to your answer right here ^^. If you were running a red dot and this was a CQB minded setup, i don't think the accuracy different would matter as much. But if you're running magnified optics, especially in the 4-12x range, it sounds like you're looking for accuracy, and maybe at a bit of distance. In that case, i'd keep the DD and the better accuracy for sure.
Personally, i wouldn't run more than a 1-6 or 1-8 on an 11" or smaller SBR, and keep the bigger magnified optics for a longer gun that can give me better accuracy at distance, but it sounds like you know what you want out of the gun.
I think this is the key to your answer right here ^^. If you were running a red dot and this was a CQB minded setup, i don't think the accuracy different would matter as much. But if you're running magnified optics, especially in the 4-12x range, it sounds like you're looking for accuracy, and maybe at a bit of distance. In that case, i'd keep the DD and the better accuracy for sure.
Personally, i wouldn't run more than a 1-6 or 1-8 on an 11" or smaller SBR, and keep the bigger magnified optics for a longer gun that can give me better accuracy at distance, but it sounds like you know what you want out of the gun.
If you read the OP the gun generally wears an RDS. But I use a magnifying optic to determine the accuracy.
Coal Dragger
02-26-20, 17:56
Then who cares? It’s a shorty, if you want longer distance precision potential or a general purpose carbine run a 14.5” or 16”. This notion that a short barrel bullet hose should do double duty whacking stuff at 300 on out is misguided at best. Frankly for those who’s job doesn’t involve kicking doors down, and SBR to me seems more of a toy than anything.
Then who cares? It’s a shorty, if you want longer distance precision potential or a general purpose carbine run a 14.5” or 16”. This notion that a short barrel bullet hose should do double duty whacking stuff at 300 on out is misguided at best. Frankly for those who’s job doesn’t involve kicking doors down, and SBR to me seems more of a toy than anything.
Says who? I have no problem running a suppressed 11.5 AR out to three hundred yards or more. Often with a red dot sight. Most limitations placed on firearms in their particular configurations, are far more versatile than most shooters realize.
Says who? I have no problem running a suppressed 11.5 AR out to three hundred yards or more. Often with a red dot sight. Most limitations placed on firearms in their particular configurations, are far more versatile than most shooters realize.
I don’t doubt that you can score hits on target out to that distance but I wonder if the bullet still has enough velocity from the short barrel to expand or fragment at those distances.
It’s been a while since I checked the ballistic calculator on my given ammo but I seem to recall that it slows below the speed necessary to fragment somewhere around the 200-225 yard mark when fired from a 12.5” barrel. I could be mistaken though.
I don’t doubt that you can score hits on target out to that distance but I wonder if the bullet still has enough velocity from the short barrel to expand or fragment at those distances.
It’s been a while since I checked the ballistic calculator on my given ammo but I seem to recall that it slows below the speed necessary to fragment somewhere around the 200-225 yard mark when fired from a 12.5” barrel. I could be mistaken though.
Maybe. But the bullet will still make enough of a hole to cause a notable leak in the hydraulic system. Add to that, if a foe were to take offense at having such a hole put in their hydraulic system, they'll have to have to cover that 300 yards or so to register their complaint, risking more leaks being placed to greater effect.
I have read on numerous occasions of our guys putting bad guys down with MK18's at 200 yards. Of course I can't verify that.
I have read on numerous occasions of our guys putting bad guys down with MK18's at 200 yards. Of course I can't verify that.
There was a whole thread on here several years back about an article detailing the increased use of Mk18s in Afghanistan.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?155441-Interesting-article-by-Army-SOF-on-MK18-use
I think that it's fair to say that an SBR/10.5" or so barrel is still perfectly acceptable for most combat ranges a 5.56 weapon will need to engage it. Beyond 250-300m, it's best to get something a bit bigger. (be that caliber or longer barrel, I leave to another thread) That article/thread finally got me off my ass and caused me to invest in an SBR barrel for my SCAR, and a DD Mk18 upper AR pistol.
Then who cares? It’s a shorty, if you want longer distance precision potential or a general purpose carbine run a 14.5” or 16”. This notion that a short barrel bullet hose should do double duty whacking stuff at 300 on out is misguided at best. Frankly for those who’s job doesn’t involve kicking doors down, and SBR to me seems more of a toy than anything.
Do you own an SBR? 14.5” or 16” is general purpose for whom? You? Its not for me. Personally a 12.5" with a LPVO and a can would be my general purpose rifle. I would add that accuracy has nothing to do with barrel length. Velocity and the range of your given ammo has to do with barrel length.
But lets take that whole argument out of the equation. If you need to make a head shot at 100 yards and your gun is 4 or 5 moa, that could very easily be a miss. If your short barrel bullet hose is 1.5 MOA, its a shot you can be confident in if you do your part.
hotrodder636
03-02-20, 09:55
It wasn’t until reading that other article on the MK18 that I realized Dano is no longer on this forum. I had noticed I hadn’t seen posts from him in a while...now I know why. Sucks to lose the SMEs who have actually BTDT.
It wasn’t until reading that other article on the MK18 that I realized Dano is no longer on this forum. I had noticed I hadn’t seen posts from him in a while...now I know why. Sucks to lose the SMEs who have actually BTDT.
Completely agree. Such a bummer.
On using the Mk18 at 200+, guys aren’t doing that because they have 4 guns in their backpack inventory they can switch to like a videogame. They’re using it because its the gun they have in their hands at the moment. Not because its the optimal tool for that particular shot. They are carrying it because the benefits for their task outweighs the drawbacks.
Soldiers, even well trained ones, tend to overestimate distance in varying degrees, especially at night. So when I hear about a longer shot that I wasn’t present for, I think about how they determined/verified the distance, time of day, and who’s telling me.
Also, ammo type can play a role, as does chance and placement. Pop a melon, and it doesn’t matter if your ammo fragmented or expanded optimally. And dropping a dude like a lightning strike has a different scale of urgency at knife range than it does at “that idiot can’t hit me” range. Nobody likes getting shot, so a dude dropping face first to the ground at 300 does not always mean he is DRT. It may mean he doesn’t know what to do about his current problem, and hopefully he’ll be dead when you get to him. Of course, you’ll never find out if you shoot him a few more times just for luck.
I’m not saying that any of these reports are BS, or that the Mk 18 doesn’t do the job, just providing a little clarification. Choose what works best for your task.
Here’s a 300 yard hit with 10.5 build using irons
https://youtu.be/azrYiyl7hJ8
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