View Full Version : Type 1, Type 2, Type 3 Rant
This thread, and the video on the website linked to, got me thinking about terminology:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?221126-T3MT-malfunction-training-cartridges&p=2817372#post2817372
I've never favored the code phrases for malfunctions for a couple reasons -
First off, what occurs is not a secret, nor is the methodology used to fix or clear the malfunction.
Secondly, my brain is already packed to the brim with important info, bath time, lunch time, etc. and using the 'Type' code requires me to remember not only the proper name for the malfunction, but the tacticool name for it. This is kind of why law enforcement went away from total use of ten-codes, to mixed clear speech.
Furthermore, shooters need to know what the pistol/rifle has done in order to fix it AND keep it from occurring in the future. I doubt that anyone teaches a Type 1 malfunction drill without some explanation similar to this one I just copied from the web:
Type I Malfunction: You press the trigger and get “click” instead of “bang.” The Type I malfunction may be due to no round in the chamber; this is why we make sure to tug on the magazine to ensure it’s seated and check the chamber during the loading process to be sure there’s a round chambered. Or, the Type I malfunction can be due to a bad round, for example a faulty primer that doesn’t ignite the powder charge. Ultimately it doesn’t matter, we’re going to treat it the same .....
So since you have to remember 'fail to feed, or fail to fire' in order to understand you have a 'Type 1' malfunction, why not just skip the extra nomenclature and say: fail to feed/fire?
I think a lot of the time we instructors actually muddy the water because we want to seem very knowledgeable and serious.
As an example, although we never used the 'type' nomenclature, we made a big deal to our students that we taught the malfunctions in the order in which they occurred in the operational cycle. Looking back, I don't think that is super important knowledge to impart, but it does make you look like you know what you are talking about...
This is a solid type 2 rant here!
This thread, and the video on the website linked to, got me thinking about terminology:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?221126-T3MT-malfunction-training-cartridges&p=2817372#post2817372
I've never favored the code phrases for malfunctions for a couple reasons -
First off, what occurs is not a secret, nor is the methodology used to fix or clear the malfunction.
Secondly, my brain is already packed to the brim with important info, bath time, lunch time, etc. and using the 'Type' code requires me to remember not only the proper name for the malfunction, but the tacticool name for it. This is kind of why law enforcement went away from total use of ten-codes, to mixed clear speech.
Furthermore, shooters need to know what the pistol/rifle has done in order to fix it AND keep it from occurring in the future. I doubt that anyone teaches a Type 1 malfunction drill without some explanation similar to this one I just copied from the web:
Type I Malfunction: You press the trigger and get “click” instead of “bang.” The Type I malfunction may be due to no round in the chamber; this is why we make sure to tug on the magazine to ensure it’s seated and check the chamber during the loading process to be sure there’s a round chambered. Or, the Type I malfunction can be due to a bad round, for example a faulty primer that doesn’t ignite the powder charge. Ultimately it doesn’t matter, we’re going to treat it the same .....
So since you have to remember 'fail to feed, or fail to fire' in order to understand you have a 'Type 1' malfunction, why not just skip the extra nomenclature and say: fail to feed/fire?
I think a lot of the time we instructors actually muddy the water because we want to seem very knowledgeable and serious.
As an example, although we never used the 'type' nomenclature, we made a big deal to our students that we taught the malfunctions in the order in which they occurred in the operational cycle. Looking back, I don't think that is super important knowledge to impart, but it does make you look like you know what you are talking about...
If it makes you feel better, somehow I missed getting type 1, 2 or 3 and really thought this would be about the Kalashnikov series. I know them as fail to feed, fail to fire, fail to eject, etc.
Most jargon in the firearms community, and most communities in general, is marketing.
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Straight Shooter
02-22-20, 18:07
Most jargon in the firearms community, and most communities in general, is marketing.
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Yall are speaking what Ive been sayin for years now- all this "tactical" crap...I literally HATE that word now, along with the STUPID terminology like "workspace"..."admin reload"..calling a weapon a "platform"... F OFF with that that shit. Many more I could name & you all know them too. ENOUGH already with the Ranger Rick talk.
just a scout
02-22-20, 18:25
Yall are speaking what Ive been sayin for years now- all this "tactical" crap...I literally HATE that word now, along with the STUPID terminology like "workspace"..."admin reload"..calling a weapon a "platform"... F OFF with that that shit. Many more I could name & you all know them too. ENOUGH already with the Ranger Rick talk.
Hey!! Ranger Rick was The Dude back in the 80s and early 90s! I learned a ton from his little handbooks.
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Looks pretty cool to me, only need one. You cant practice this drill routinely unless you own a KIMBER, :haha:
PB
Yall are speaking what Ive been sayin for years now- all this "tactical" crap...I literally HATE that word now, along with the STUPID terminology like "workspace"..."admin reload"..calling a weapon a "platform"... F OFF with that that shit. Many more I could name & you all know them too. ENOUGH already with the Ranger Rick talk.
I understand it to a certain extent. LEOs having the same training and jargon makes sense, obviously if you are actually in the military or some kind of special forces it makes sense. The problem of course is the guys who either are LARPing hard or simply want to attract the wannabe contingent of the firearms community.
I still remember about 10 years ago watching some group do a live fire assault on the range and it was like a neckbeard melle with some of the worst gun handling I've seen and 20-25 moving up along every one else's line of fire. I bet they really felt Delta that day but I've seen junior rifle clubs with more competent shooting skills.
Also probably has a lot to do with being a certain age, I remember when I felt it was more sworn duty to explain to everyone the difference between a clip and a magazine, then you get older and you only care that everyone is being safe and if they want to call a magazine a twinkie it really doesn't matter.
The guys walking around explaining admin reloads probably mean well, back in the revolutionary days there was probably some idiot yelling "misfire....reprime....recock" and in 200 years they will have new, equally retarded terminology for the "make me feel special" crowd to run into the ground.
And yeah, for awhile I've mentally substituted the word practical for tactical whenever relevant, eventually people will get sick of the "practical" guys for the same reasons.
Also probably has a lot to do with being a certain age, I remember when I felt it was more sworn duty to explain to everyone the difference between a clip and a magazine, then you get older and you only care that everyone is being safe and if they want to call a magazine a twinkie it really doesn't matter.
From now on, I will describe reloads as “remove the stale twinkie and insert a fresh twinkie”. I’m not sure if there really is such a thing as a fresh twinkie, and for some reason politicians keep wanting to ban extra-stuffed twinkies.
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It is funny, I don't even know what the "type " crap is, heard it, don't care. We just just say soft or hard malfunction. Or if you want to make it simple and poke fun
click no bang, tap/rack
if it looks like a train wreck or a seal party, someone needs to be locked up and shoved out the door to make room-one in-one out:dance3:
Most jargon in the firearms community, and most communities in general, is marketing.
Filling classes requires a perpetual flow of pretentious bullshit....
Two immediate actions clear them all in a pistol;
Tap/rack. If that doesn't work strip magazine, cycle the slide, insert new mag, cycle the slide.
Type classification for stoppages has been around for decades and is nothing new nor is it associated with "tactical" trends. The problem with it over time is that folks redefine them and what one person or place is teaching is different than another. Students learn the term, it's associated conditions, and correction procedure required for that condition. The result is a lack of consistency and permanency as they go on.
Sometimes, we have to have particular words to call things to enhance communication across a discipline. The balance and sweet-spot for can be elusive though.
Don Robison
02-23-20, 09:14
I first heard type Type 1-3 from Cooper and Smith along with condition 1-3 and a crazy color code of awareness; not really what I would call tacticool guys, but I do think back in the day they over-complicated a lot of things.
I'm sure many would disagree with me but for several years I have just taught everything gets a tap/rack; if that doesn't fix it unload, check the chamber and reload with a fresh mag which will fix everything except broken parts.
I first heard type Type 1-3 from Cooper and Smith along with condition 1-3 and a crazy color code of awareness; not really what I would call tacticool guys, but I do think back in the day they over-complicated a lot of things. I'm sure many would disagree with me but for several years I have just taught everything gets a tap/rack; if that doesn't fix it unload, check the chamber and reload with a fresh mag which will fix everything except broken parts.
That's one of the more common things between types, each clearance starts with seating the magazine and attempting to rack the slide. An improperly seated mag or an empty chamber is also the most frequent problem, so that alone works 90% of the time.
Teaching a reload as a universal correction can also be a thing, and as you say corrects almost everything. Issues are the availability of a spare mag or retention of the magazine in use. (Now, cue the "never hold onto a bad mag", "keep every mag...you'll need the ammo later", "you'll never be able to pick up your mag" crowds.)
A friend spends a huge amount of time in some of his classes teaching super-deliberate loading and unloading of the gun. I found it a bit odd at first, until I saw how much less time he needed to spend on reloading and stoppage clearance as so much groundwork had been laid already. And since most NDs are associated with the loading/unloading and the related admin processes, it really made sense as part of safety as well.
Don Robison
02-23-20, 09:40
That's one of the more common things between types, each clearance starts with seating the magazine and attempting to rack the slide. An improperly seated mag or an empty chamber is also the most frequent problem, so that alone works 90% of the time.
Teaching a reload as a universal correction can also be a thing, and as you say corrects almost everything. Issues are the availability of a spare mag or retention of the magazine in use. (Now, cue the "never hold onto a bad mag", "keep every mag...you'll need the ammo later", "you'll never be able to pick up your mag" crowds.)
A friend spends a huge amount of time in some of his classes teaching super-deliberate loading and unloading of the gun. I found it a bit odd at first, until I saw how much less time he needed to spend on reloading and stoppage clearance as so much groundwork had been laid already. And since most NDs are associated with the loading/unloading and the related admin processes, it really made sense as part of safety as well.
Exactly my thought process. It's a means to an end; but not the only way of doing it.
I don't know that I would call what I spend a huge amount of time, but I do spend a fair amount covering deliberate loading and unloading mainly because virtually every ND I've had from students the last 12 years has been from someone who shoots competition and uses the competition clear. They screw up the order, rack the slide, drop the mag and bang into the berm when they drop the hammer. I have found that doing that and malfunctions up front lessens the time in class that I need to spend with people who can't get/keep their gun running.
From now on, I will describe reloads as “remove the stale twinkie and insert a fresh twinkie”. I’m not sure if there really is such a thing as a fresh twinkie, and for some reason politicians keep wanting to ban extra-stuffed twinkies.
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Love it. That's almost sig line worthy.
Yall are speaking what Ive been sayin for years now- all this "tactical" crap...I literally HATE that word now, along with the STUPID terminology like "workspace"..."admin reload"..calling a weapon a "platform"... F OFF with that that shit. Many more I could name & you all know them too. ENOUGH already with the Ranger Rick talk.
Eh, I don't mind the terminology, especially when it has a clear meaning. Terms like "workspace" help people visualize what is being taught/discussed, "admin reload" refers a reload for a specific purpose, or even "platform," recognizing that a weapon is no longer simply a shooty stick, but something that is the baseline for a larger "weapon system." (yes, that's probably another term you don't like)
I'm more annoyed by the tendency to slap rails, a grip, or just black polymer on anything and call it a "tactical" whatever. Adding a threaded barrel and suppressor height sights to a gun? Sure, use the tactical label. Put rails and an AR buttstock on a lever gun? For the love of all that is holy, no.
From now on, I will describe reloads as “remove the stale twinkie and insert a fresh twinkie”. I’m not sure if there really is such a thing as a fresh twinkie, and for some reason politicians keep wanting to ban extra-stuffed twinkies.
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Your twinkie is running low, double stuff it NOW.
Straight Shooter
02-23-20, 19:28
Hey!! Ranger Rick was The Dude back in the 80s and early 90s! I learned a ton from his little handbooks.
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You know.. you are right. BAD analogy, apologies, but yall know what I mean.
And I agree it probably does have something to do with age...and I agree 100% about slappin rails and shit on a levergun and calling it "tactical". Thats a clown show for sure.
From now on, I will describe reloads as “remove the stale twinkie and insert a fresh twinkie”. I’m not sure if there really is such a thing as a fresh twinkie, and for some reason politicians keep wanting to ban extra-stuffed twinkies.
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https://youtu.be/gOVN761JnrY
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