View Full Version : ATF proposes changing 4473 format
https://gunowners.org/na02152020/
ATF Proposes Step to Make a National Gun Registry Easier
The ATF has issued new rules that will alter the format for Form 4473’s and make it easier to create a national gun registry. ATF agents have used annual inspections to electronically record the contents of Form 4473’s being kept by federal gun dealers.
If you don’t think even for just a second that the ATF and FBI don’t already have the ability to put together a national registry then you are a fool.
Laws mean nothing to both these agencies.
Steve Shannon
02-22-20, 13:08
If you don’t think even for just a second that the ATF and FBI don’t already have the ability to put together a national registry then you are a fool.
Laws mean nothing to both these agencies.
I’ve been an FFL for over 35 years. In that time I’ve been visited only once. He looked through my books and compared my inventory with the book but never took pictures or notes and never copied the books or the 4473 forms. I’m not sure how they could possibly create a registry for records that are still possessed by dealers.
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I’ve been an FFL for over 35 years. In that time I’ve been visited only once. He looked through my books and compared my inventory with the book but never took pictures or notes and never copied the books or the 4473 forms. I’m not sure how they could possibly create a registry for records that are still possessed by dealers.
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My suspicion grows out of the very murky intentionally vague process that the ATF uses to "trace back" a firearm, when they need to.
Its very odd how they claim they don't keep records on sales, background checks et al... yet they can trace back a gun used in a crime from the crime scene all the way back to the dealer who took stock of it right off the production line.
If they can do that, then yes they can build a registry.
My suspicion grows out of the very murky intentionally vague process that the ATF uses to "trace back" a firearm, when they need to.
Its very odd how they claim they don't keep records on sales, background checks et al... yet they can trace back a gun used in a crime from the crime scene all the way back to the dealer who took stock of it right off the production line.
If they can do that, then yes they can build a registry.
That doesn’t work how you’re thinking it works.
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My suspicion grows out of the very murky intentionally vague process that the ATF uses to "trace back" a firearm, when they need to.
Its very odd how they claim they don't keep records on sales, background checks et al... yet they can trace back a gun used in a crime from the crime scene all the way back to the dealer who took stock of it right off the production line.
If they can do that, then yes they can build a registry.
They rely on the records maintained by the manufacturer, distributor, and retailer to trace a firearm.
My suspicion grows out of the very murky intentionally vague process that the ATF uses to "trace back" a firearm, when they need to.
Its very odd how they claim they don't keep records on sales, background checks et al... yet they can trace back a gun used in a crime from the crime scene all the way back to the dealer who took stock of it right off the production line.
If they can do that, then yes they can build a registry.
The firearm is serialized.
The manufacturer keeps track of who the firearm was sent to (distributor or FFL)
If the firearm was sent to a distributor, the distributor keeps track of who the firearm was sent to (FFL)
The ATF visits the FFL and checks the FFL's book which must contain the date sold. name and address of person/entity receiving, 4473 location (numerical order, etc).
AtF takes it from there.
Be pretty difficult to put together a national gun registry using that methodology.
Glock found at crime scene > local PD calls ATF > ATF calls Glock > Glock tells them who was the distributor > ATF calls distributor > distributor tells them FFL they sold it to or was transferred through > ATF calls FFL > FFL goes and looks through 4473s > calls ATF back with final transfer > AFT calls back PD which can go several different ways from there.
The scanning of books is a big issue during audits. The NRA has been bitching about it for years and the ATF says they are not keeping any records or building a database. There are lots of FFLs like Steve above that don't get a lot of audits and most were done before the scan bound book days. There will be holes but they have a place to start especially as more shops move to an all encompassing POS system that does digital 4473s.
The firearm is serialized.
The manufacturer keeps track of who the firearm was sent to (distributor or FFL)
If the firearm was sent to a distributor, the distributor keeps track of who the firearm was sent to (FFL)
The ATF visits the FFL and checks the FFL's book which must contain the date sold. name and address of person/entity receiving, 4473 location (numerical order, etc).
AtF takes it from there.
Be pretty difficult to put together a national gun registry using that methodology.
Im not saying it wouldn't be a huge endeavor, I'm simply saying its doable despite what the ATF/FBI say.
My suspicion grows out of the very murky intentionally vague process that the ATF uses to "trace back" a firearm, when they need to.
Its very odd how they claim they don't keep records on sales, background checks et al... yet they can trace back a gun used in a crime from the crime scene all the way back to the dealer who took stock of it right off the production line.
If they can do that, then yes they can build a registry.
Actually they can't.
They start with the manufacturer, who tells them what wholesaler / distributor it was provided to and they in turn tell them what LGS / FFL purchased it and the FFL or chain of FFLs inform them who got it next.
I've done a few information requests with ATF, when they contact me they have no idea who has it. I either give them the FFL I shipped to our the contact info of the person who bought it from me. There is no national database, or database of any kind for the person who bought it from me other than the paper 4473s in my safe.
The closest thing to creating a database is when FFLs go out of business and turn over all of their 4473s to ATF.
That doesn’t work how you’re thinking it works.
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I was involved in more than a few cases where the GBI had the ATF do the trace, it was eyeopening how fast, accurate and thorough the process was. In one case they were even able to ID that a single private sale had occurred just prior to a handgun being pawned and from pawn records found the seller/buyer.
I was involved in more than a few cases where the GBI had the ATF do the trace, it was eyeopening how fast, accurate and thorough the process was. In one case they were even able to ID that a single private sale had occurred just prior to a handgun being pawned and from pawn records found the seller/buyer.
If it was recent enough, when the ATF calls I can usually pull the FFL and read them the info and then fax a copy in 5 minutes. Pawn shops are different, they have a different recording procedure. I do believe they have to submit seller info when they buy a firearm.
There is a huge ATF computer facility in Martinsburg, WV. Wonder what they're doing there? :rolleyes:
Despite Federal law [currently] prohibiting the creation of a "registry", given the performance of the premier LEO agency in our country from 2016 onward does anyone think these bastards wouldn't flaunt the law? After all the law is for you and me, not them.
Think about it: in order for information in a criminal case to be legally obtained, ATF would have to go through the formal trace procedure to present the evidence in court for the prosecution. Martinsburg, WV may be able to give them what they need but it can't be used because a registry isn't supposed to exist. Anyone remember when it was exposed that NSA snooping was being fed to prosecutors but the way it was obtained had to be hidden. "Alternate construction" I believe is the term they used.
There are cases where they have scanned huge numbers of 4473s during compliance inspections but until they have online 4473s they won't be able to create a complete registry.
Glock found at crime scene > local PD calls ATF > ATF calls Glock > Glock tells them who was the distributor > ATF calls distributor > distributor tells them FFL they sold it to or was transferred through > ATF calls FFL > FFL goes and looks through 4473s > calls ATF back with final transfer > AFT calls back PD which can go several different ways from there.
The scanning of books is a big issue during audits. The NRA has been bitching about it for years and the ATF says they are not keeping any records or building a database. There are lots of FFLs like Steve above that don't get a lot of audits and most were done before the scan bound book days. There will be holes but they have a place to start especially as more shops move to an all encompassing POS system that does digital 4473s.That's exactly what happened to me when my HK turned up at a crime scene.
Got a call from Philly PD and after a while we figured out which gun he was talking about. I then told him what gun store I traded in at and that was it. Never heard back. But when I asked him how he got my name he said he just called HK who told him where they shipped it and he went from there
Have you ever posted pictures or videos of your firearms on social media? Some sites are compiling databases of serial numbers and owners:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbaumann/2019/10/23/big-brothers-watching-think-twice-before-you-post-pictures-of-your-firearms-on-social-media-n2555263
There is a huge ATF computer facility in Martinsburg, WV. Wonder what they're doing there? :rolleyes:
Despite Federal law [currently] prohibiting the creation of a "registry", given the performance of the premier LEO agency in our country from 2016 onward does anyone think these bastards wouldn't flaunt the law? After all the law is for you and me, not them.
Think about it: in order for information in a criminal case to be legally obtained, ATF would have to go through the formal trace procedure to present the evidence in court for the prosecution. Martinsburg, WV may be able to give them what they need but it can't be used because a registry isn't supposed to exist. Anyone remember when it was exposed that NSA snooping was being fed to prosecutors but the way it was obtained had to be hidden. "Alternate construction" I believe is the term they used.
Parallel construction was the term.
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Have you ever posted pictures or videos of your firearms on social media? Some sites are compiling databases of serial numbers and owners:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbaumann/2019/10/23/big-brothers-watching-think-twice-before-you-post-pictures-of-your-firearms-on-social-media-n2555263
Using photoshop I cleverly alter my serial numbers.
While incompetence is more prevalent than corruption, it's undeniable that the ATF and FBI lie. They deserve no benefit of the doubt until they regain the public trust they've squandered.
Still, I get why they scan 4473's. It's far easier for compliance agents to prove to their superiors that they actually reviewed those records and didn't fake an inspection.
What, you think the ATF "leadership" trusts their employees? LOL
My suspicion grows out of the very murky intentionally vague process that the ATF uses to "trace back" a firearm, when they need to.
Its very odd how they claim they don't keep records on sales, background checks et al... yet they can trace back a gun used in a crime from the crime scene all the way back to the dealer who took stock of it right off the production line.
If they can do that, then yes they can build a registry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N118jYj2cA
Parallel construction was the term.
Yes, that's it, I stand corrected!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N118jYj2cA
I watched the video. They aren't "allowed" to enter information that is traceable by name (which I have my doubts about whether it's actually done or not). Even assuming they are truthful about that part, nothing prevents them from cataloging by type, i.e. AR15, AK, whatever. Should push ever come to shove, they won't necessarily be searching for anything Joe Blow purchased, but instead where all those AR's and AK's are at.
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