Boeing's "Future Attack Recon Aircraft" candidate revealed [Archive]

SomeOtherGuy

03-03-20, 15:32

How many false starts have we had on this helo program?

The artists who draw up Boeing concept art are barely more likely to see their designs become reality than the artists who work for comic books.

caporider

03-03-20, 15:32

Looks like they're going away from the 30mm chain gun back to a multi-barrel cannon type system.

Different mission from Apache. More of a Kiowa Warrior replacement.

Slater

03-03-20, 15:37

In fact, Lockheed Martin/Sikorsky's candidate is going with a .50 cal weapon:

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/s-97-raider-helicopter.html

Diamondback

03-03-20, 15:38

Mozart

03-03-20, 15:46

Looks like a more streamlined RAH-66 Comanche. At that rate they might as well just dust off and update the existing engineering... Raider looks like somebody dialed up the old Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne in the Wayback Machine and turned it into a 4-seater version.

Exactly. How much $$ was spent on Comanche only to be canceled? Although, rumor has it that much of the R and D for Comanche ended up in the stealth Blackhawks used in Operation Neptune Spear. but we can’t see or know about those because reasons.

Diamondback

03-03-20, 16:00

And then there's this Boeing-Sikorsky joint venture that looks evolved from Raider...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky%E2%80%93Boeing_SB-1_Defiant

Geez, I never imagined they'd teach a submarine to fly!

Slater

03-03-20, 16:01

Bell's offering looks like it falls in with the others:

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-360

Slater

03-03-20, 16:02

All these different options and I'm confident that, somehow, the Army will manage to screw it all up.

caporider

03-03-20, 16:15

Looks like a more streamlined RAH-66 Comanche. At that rate they might as well just dust off and update the existing engineering... Raider looks like somebody dialed up the old Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne in the Wayback Machine, added Kamov-style contra-rotating main rotors and turned it into a 4-seater version.

There's way more to the advancing blade concept dual rotor system than just having contra-rotating rotors...

Diamondback

03-03-20, 17:54

There's way more to the advancing blade concept dual rotor system than just having contra-rotating rotors...

True... main thing I find curious is they're using the same "High Maneuverability" illustrations and talking points as Lockheed did on Cheyenne, which was scrapped when it was found that all that maneuverability and close-combat engagement brought it RIGHT into the kill-boxes for the early MANPADS.

jpmuscle

03-03-20, 21:33

There's way more to the advancing blade concept dual rotor system than just having contra-rotating rotors...

And for the non savvy folks in the back this stuff includes?

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Mozart

03-03-20, 22:22

Bell's offering looks like it falls in with the others:

https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-360

Ooooo the INVICTUS

caporider

03-04-20, 08:32

And for the non savvy folks in the back this stuff includes?

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Two big ones are:

- rigid rotors so they can be spaced much closer than semi-rigid/teetering rotors (lower profile, shorter control runs, etc)
- offloading retreating rotors so they don't suffer from retreating blade stall

ABC + prop allows for much higher speeds than traditional helicopters and much better hover characteristics than tiltrotors. You can actually do pitchless forward flight OR maintain a specific pitch attitude during forward flight. Plus, the prop can go full reverse to act as a gigantic speed brake to bring the helo to a stop very quickly.

Grand58742

03-04-20, 12:52

Quite frankly, if Boeing can't do this by now, they need to up their game. I mean, Kenner showed us the way in 1985:

https://www.lulu-berlu.com/upload/image/mask---switchblade-with-miles-mayhem--europe--p-image-398663-grande.jpg

sundance435

03-04-20, 14:27

All these different options and I'm confident that, somehow, the Army will manage to screw it all up.

They already did once by killing the Kiowa and insisting the AH-64E could do the same thing. I think they realize how badly they screwed up with that, so I think this program will be a go - whether it ends up as something useful is to be determined.

Quite frankly, if Boeing can't do this by now, they need to up their game. I mean, Kenner showed us the way in 1985:

I saw a wind-tunnel prototype of a new Apache concept that is pretty much this thing with a push prop and stub main rotor blades. Similar, I think, to what caporider above is talking about. Found it:

61165

TexHill

03-04-20, 16:58

In fact, Lockheed Martin/Sikorsky's candidate is going with a .50 cal weapon:

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/s-97-raider-helicopter.html

They're also listing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) in the specifications.

Diamondback

03-04-20, 17:17

They already did once by killing the Kiowa and insisting the AH-64E could do the same thing. I think they realize how badly they screwed up with that, so I think this program will be a go - whether it ends up as something useful is to be determined.

I saw a wind-tunnel prototype of a new Apache concept that is pretty much this thing with a push prop and stub main rotor blades. Similar, I think, to what caporider above is talking about. Found it:

61165

Actually, that's a 1980s or '90s design study for a navalized "Sea Apache." The resemblance to Cheyenne, whose collapse made Apache necessary, is uncanny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AH-56_Cheyenne

Problem with Longbow-replacing-Kiowa is Longbow's sensor suite is radar, while Kiowa's "eyeball" is optical/IR.

Grand58742

03-05-20, 06:48

They already did once by killing the Kiowa and insisting the AH-64E could do the same thing. I think they realize how badly they screwed up with that, so I think this program will be a go - whether it ends up as something useful is to be determined.

I saw a wind-tunnel prototype of a new Apache concept that is pretty much this thing with a push prop and stub main rotor blades. Similar, I think, to what caporider above is talking about. Found it:

61165

Sorry, but if Boeing can't come up with an attack helicopter that transforms into a jet fighter and has lasers shooting out of the skids, why have they been wasting our time for decades?

Slater

03-05-20, 07:13

I don't know. Don't we have Airwolf hidden somewhere in the desert?

Whiskey_Bravo

03-05-20, 12:40

Does it have an automated self nose dive feature like the Boeing max?

DrMark

03-05-20, 18:14

In addition to Bell, Boeing, and Sikorsky, AVX and Karem are also in the FARA-CP competition.

https://www.helis.com/database/news/avx-l3-harris-fara-ausa-2019/

https://defpost.com/ausa-2019-karem-unveils-ar40-proposal-for-u-s-armys-fara-prototype-program/

DrMark

03-05-20, 18:21

In fact, Lockheed Martin/Sikorsky's candidate is going with a .50 cal weapon:

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/s-97-raider-helicopter.html

That's the S-97 Raider that lists 50-cal; it is different than Sikorsky's FARA-CP design. They look similar, but are indeed different.

See: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/fara-raider-x.html

DrMark

03-10-20, 20:48

Here's a look at all five:

https://defpost.com/u-s-army-fara-program-detailed-look-on-five-competing-designs/

glocktogo

03-11-20, 11:09

Here's a look at all five:

https://defpost.com/u-s-army-fara-program-detailed-look-on-five-competing-designs/

It's really interesting to see so many notably divergent designs all competing for the same contract. Usually you only see two, three at the most and they're pretty similar in physical envelope and operation.

Grand58742

03-11-20, 13:08

Have we ever had a mainstream coaxial design before?

I know the Soviets/Russians have used them extensively, but I don't recall the US ever adopting one.

caporider

03-11-20, 14:52

Have we ever had a mainstream coaxial design before?

I know the Soviets/Russians have used them extensively, but I don't recall the US ever adopting one.

We've used the crazy-looking Kaman intermeshing rotor helos, but never a coax.

mig1nc

03-28-20, 06:57

Looks like thanks to budget cuts they had to accelerate the down select. They could no longer afford to fund 5 prototypes so now it's just Bell and Sikorsky.

Seems like they went with the one they really wanted (Sikorsky) and then hedged their bets on the safest lowest risk but also lowest performing option (Bell).

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/army-modernization/2020/03/27/us-army-shores-up-fy20-cut-to-its-future-attack-recon-aircraft-budget/

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