What are realistic expectations for flash reduction on suppressed SBRs? [Archive]

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R.O.U.S.

03-05-20, 13:21

I decided to get into suppressors last year after shooting a friends DD MK18 with a Surefire RC2.
I went with a Knights 7.62 QDC CRS because I had plans to get an SR-25, and KAC had a flash hider that would let me mount it on an AR15. I’ve shot 1330 rounds through the suppressor. 110 rounds of 308 (on a SR25), and 1020 rounds of 556/223 through it.

SBR config
11.5” 556 Colt “FBI” profile barrel w Colt upper receiver, and Colt BCG
Knight’s 7.62 QDC CRS mounted on rifle using the ½” QDC flash suppressor kit PN111583
The lower receiver is DD factory SBR used it with normal carbine receiver extension and H1, H2, H3, custom 8.5oz buffers. I eventually upgraded this to an A5 extension with Springco green spring/SR25 recoil spring, and a A5H2 buffer.

I’ve also mounted the barrel on a DD 11.5” V7S, and an upper built around a 12.5” Hodge Defense barrel with similar results.

I’m not happy with the flash suppression with this suppressor on a 556 SBR. I've also noticed the locking collar getting loose during use. I don’t have night vision, or anything like it, but I prefer less flash than more. The QDC (closed tine) flash hider by itself does a better job at flash reduction. Adding the suppressor makes it into a flash enhancer.
The following pictures are with Federal American Eagle XM193. Photo’s aren’t great because I used print screen on a video I took. Nearly every round is a fireball. PMC bronze flashes less often, but still outputs a fireball. Norma Tac 223 is just about as flashy as Federal XM193.

I feel I can hear a tone difference between when it flashes, and the times I do not see visible flash.

https://i.imgur.com/IRrrEtj.png
https://i.imgur.com/w1O29vX.png
https://i.imgur.com/QHujhFY.png
https://i.imgur.com/3wVJkqh.png

Is this normal for suppressed SBRs? I feel like I’m missing something and doing things wrong somehow. It's nothing like what I see of people shooting suppressed setups on youtube.

PS.
I’m not sure if anything can be learned from looking at a blast baffle, but here is the best photo I was able to take. This is 60 rounds fired (making the total round count 1330) after a cleaning of Boretech C4 carbon remover. Reduced the weight of the suppressor from 16 ounces to 15.8 ounces. The suppressor was 15.7 ounces out of the box.
https://i.imgur.com/aZnz0y4.jpg

Eurodriver

03-05-20, 14:06

SteveL

03-05-20, 14:31

I have a Dead Air Sandman K and it shoots substantial fireballs out of both my 11.5" shorties and my 16" recce.

1168

03-05-20, 14:40

Leaveammoforme

03-05-20, 14:52

The only thing you can do is try a MAMs instead of the flash hider. May bring the flash down some while suppressed.

I have a Dead Air Sandman K and it shoots substantial fireballs out of both my 11.5" shorties and my 16" recce.

The Sandman 5.56 flash hider end cap made a substantial reduction to flash from my 11.5". Still there occasionally but not as distracting.

markm

03-05-20, 15:20

Handloading a low flash powder can help. Shooting 5.56mm ammo with a flashy ball powder will often be pretty flashy.

R.O.U.S.

03-05-20, 16:00

Normal.

10.3” Centurion Barrel with AE 223

https://i.imgur.com/B0G8dbl.jpg

Wait til you see what it looks like under NODs! Hope you’ve got autogated shit :)

My buddy shooting my can (M4-2k) on a 12.5” Noveske. Not as bad but still bright.

https://youtu.be/HP9mEO8YSuA

I didn't expect such quick replies. Thanks for telling me that it is normal. I have no NODs yet, but I hope to get them in the future.

I have a Dead Air Sandman K and it shoots substantial fireballs out of both my 11.5" shorties and my 16" recce.

I have a Knights 556 mini which probably performs like the Sandman K. I get flash with, but I expected a mini suppressor to flash. I just thought a full size 6" suppressor would magically make it less.

Whoever said that a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor lied. He probably didnÂ’t even have a can. They are better than bare muzzle, and some are better than others, but do not usually beat a good flash suppressor and a few more inches of barrel.

I was always under the impression that a suppressor was better than any flash suppressor. This is good to know.

The only thing you can do is try a MAMs instead of the flash hider. May bring the flash down some while suppressed.

The Sandman 5.56 flash hider end cap made a substantial reduction to flash from my 11.5". Still there occasionally but not as distracting.

Not really feasible unfortunately. Knights does not make a 1/2" x 28 MAMs that accept their 762 suppressors.

For example. My 1/2"x28 556 MAMs on the left with the 556 QDC-CQB. On the right is the 1/2"x28 flash adapter that lets you mount 762 suppressors to it. It's the only one that KAC makes. I would need an AR barrel with at least 5/8" threads to mount the appropriate MAMs break to get the 762 suppressor to mount..
https://i.imgur.com/xdLhAx0.jpg

Handloading a low flash powder can help. Shooting 5.56mm ammo with a flashy ball powder will often be pretty flashy.

I only shoot factory ammo at the moment. I am interested in hand loading, but I'm limited on space, and I don't have a bench to mount a press. :(

Thanks for the replies. All is well. I need to go buy more ammo.

Mutant90

03-05-20, 16:57

Mrgunsngear

03-05-20, 18:20

jsbhike

03-05-20, 18:31

Whoever said that a sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor lied. He probably didnÂ’t even have a can. They are better than bare muzzle, and some are better than others, but do not usually beat a good flash suppressor and a few more inches of barrel.

I have seen that claim in numerous firearms publications going back to at least the mid 1990's plus repeats online.

I have seen it claimed at least one time to justify police use that a can would allow firing in the presence of flammable vapors without concerns of igniting it and going kablooey.

hotrodder636

03-05-20, 18:42

I am currently in the market for NODs, looks like autogating feature will be high on the list of features.

Normal.

10.3” Centurion Barrel with AE 223

https://i.imgur.com/B0G8dbl.jpg

Wait til you see what it looks like under NODs! Hope you’ve got autogated shit :)

My buddy shooting my can (M4-2k) on a 12.5” Noveske. Not as bad but still bright.

https://youtu.be/HP9mEO8YSuA

vicious_cb

03-05-20, 18:46

I have seen that claim in numerous firearms publications going back to at least the mid 1990's plus repeats online.

I have seen it claimed at least one time to justify police use that a can would allow firing in the presence of flammable vapors without concerns of igniting it and going kablooey.

People are stupid, thats why. Flash hider > suppressor in reducing flash, all you have to do put a on pair of NODs to verify this.

R.O.U.S.

03-05-20, 19:45

I have a Dead Air Sandman K on an 11.5" AR. The standard 7.62 end cap has substantial flash, while the 5.56 flash hider cap is significantly less flashy.
https://i.imgur.com/lPl6CFk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hcdr0GM.jpg

I have read many conversations about 5.56 vs 7.62 end caps for modular suppressors such as Dead Air, or the Omega 300, and they centered around the minor decibel difference between end caps. This is the first time I've read about the difference in flash reduction. Those photo's are super helpful.

jsbhike

03-05-20, 20:16

People are stupid, thats why. Flash hider > suppressor in reducing flash, all you have to do put a on pair of NODs to verify this.

It's like a lot of things where most people aren't exposed to a given item so no way to know the claim is bogus.

Can't remember the guy's name, but he did one of the gun digest type books on military self loading rifles and made the claim the only difference between the AK-74 and AK-47 was projectile/bore diameter and that if 5.45 hadn't panned out, all they had to do was drill the barrel for 7.62x39 projectiles and they were back in business. Clearly, he had never laid eyes on an AK-74 or 5.45 cartridge.

Mutant90

03-05-20, 20:20

I have read many conversations about 5.56 vs 7.62 end caps for modular suppressors such as Dead Air, or the Omega 300, and they centered around the minor decibel difference between end caps. This is the first time I've read about the difference in flash reduction. Those photo's are super helpful.

Let me show you this article then. Way better comparison pictures of the Dead Air end caps. My pics are a little unfair since its a larger caliber standard end cap vs a caliber specific flash hider end cap. But since this is a 5.56 rifle and I don't shoot .30 cal this choice made most sense for me.

https://www.recoilweb.com/because-fk-your-flame-dead-air-flash-hider-endcaps-133382.html

Leaveammoforme

03-05-20, 20:43

I have read many conversations about 5.56 vs 7.62 end caps for modular suppressors such as Dead Air, or the Omega 300, and they centered around the minor decibel difference between end caps. This is the first time I've read about the difference in flash reduction. Those photo's are super helpful.

Here's my experience that mirrors day to day flash and not a "Most flash vs least flash" comparison.

Standard 30 caliber end cap on top. 5.56 flash hider cap on bottom. Pictures taken a couple days apart. Same ammo. Bottom picture has a 6 o'clock wind. Flash still occasionally present but the intensity is greatly reduced.

https://imgur.com/a/J5fpgVa

https://i.imgur.com/4505QyT.png

1168

03-06-20, 04:22

that a can would allow firing in the presence of flammable vapors without concerns of igniting it.
Certainly best avoided, and I’d rather have a can than not.

That said, I don’t think even a very good flash hider will work in that scenario. As I understand it, they work by mixing ambient air with the hot ejecta gases, leaning the fuel-air mixture. If the ambient air is flammable, it won’t work.

Callout, chemical irritants, etc. Make the prey come to you, then treat the structure appropriately. Don’t get in a shootout in a cloud of flammable toxic waste.

TMS951

03-06-20, 05:09

I have a socom 5.56 rc2.

I have a little lick of flash sometimes. Nothing like what’s shown.

1168

03-06-20, 06:12

I have a socom 5.56 rc2.

I have a little lick of flash sometimes. Nothing like what’s shown.

Full size can that has flash suppression as a design consideration. I also suspect it has pretty good internal volume to swallow up the flash. NT4 isn’t too bad at night, either. At least on a 14.5 or Mk 46 with M855.

Chimera, on the other hand, with the flash hider .22 endcap still shows a couple inches first round flash with a 14.5”, despite being a full size can. As does the M4SDk, despite having a built in flash hider cap. Most users won’t notice it, and I’m sure ammo has a say.

I think there’s a lot of factors here, and I also think most cans show a little more flash than the owners think, especially on the first round, because they never look at their flash from the side at night.

SteveL

03-06-20, 12:15

The Sandman 5.56 flash hider end cap made a substantial reduction to flash from my 11.5". Still there occasionally but not as distracting.

Let me show you this article then. Way better comparison pictures of the Dead Air end caps. My pics are a little unfair since its a larger caliber standard end cap vs a caliber specific flash hider end cap. But since this is a 5.56 rifle and I don't shoot .30 cal this choice made most sense for me.

https://www.recoilweb.com/because-fk-your-flame-dead-air-flash-hider-endcaps-133382.html

Thank you both for this information. I'll be getting the flash hider end cap for sure.

ryanm

03-10-20, 21:31

ammo makes all the difference

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/5.56-nato-75-gr-interlock-hd-sbr-black#!/

I’m not sure what you guys are expecting. I’ve seen this posted before with similar results both here and TOS. The IMI M855 ammo also seems to be lower flash powder but I don’t know if that’s a design benefit or I had a lot that just worked well.

The Hornady stuff just works damn good in SBRs! It’s not cheap though.

Joe R.

03-13-20, 22:49

A few points, some previously stated:

1. Ammo choice makes a difference. A duty grade ammo with flash retardants will greatly reduce flash with or without a can.
2. The using a 7.62 can or end cap to shoot 5.56 will produce more flash than a 5.56 end cap or can will...normally.
3. Not all cans act the same when it comes to flash reduction. Design plays a big part.
4. Use of cans in volatile environments is a thing. Again it depends on the ammo and can. Back in the 80's the DEA had clandestine lab entry teams that used a Colt 9mm SMG that was integrally suppressed (pic attached). In combination with the 147 grain ammo which had flash retardants it was "safer". Mind you I would not be in a big hurry to be touching off rounds in a meth lab either way.

DEA Colt with Knight's integral suppressor. 61327

markm

03-14-20, 12:33

The old M4-1000/2000 manuels talked about adding a cap full of water to the can prior to a kaboom operation.