View Full Version : Buffer springs. Flat vs. Braided. What say you?
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Round wire, stainless, Colt.
turnburglar
03-07-20, 17:20
IDK my mil-spec buffer springs, never didn't spring properly. So I see no reason to mess with something that works very well and is very cheap.
Round wire, stainless, Colt.
This is the correct answer.
I have used LMT springs and had the same service as from Colt springs.
I had one flat spring and hated how murderous it was to get out.
Never had a problem with regular, quality springs.
Maybe I'm a bit weird in this, but I've used Sprinco all these years. It started from needing to tame my first, very overgassed AR, and continued simply on basis of their service life. In exactly one build I have a flat wire, and I do notice less dot movement than other springs in that specific rifle. I tend to default to A5 w/Green Sprinco.
just a scout
03-07-20, 18:52
I love my H3 and Springco blues. Never a problem or issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Braided springs are very useful in certain applications.
The AR, however, is not one of them.
Straight Shooter
03-07-20, 20:13
Ive run the same Sprinco RED spring in my LMT now for 10 years or so. Not a single problem.
I had one flat spring and hated how murderous it was to get out.
Never had a problem with regular, quality springs.
Yeah, I'm with you. Buffer springs are something that I never really thought about getting too "in depth" with.
I have one of the Geissele G42s. Maybe it’s snake oil but I’m trying to keep track of how long it lasts. I am up to 900 rounds so far which doesn’t really mean anything.
turnburglar
03-07-20, 22:33
How many rounds are we supposed to get on a regular Mil-Spec spring? I had a 3K number rolling around my brain for some reason, but I know for a fact I have at least 2 rifles with that kinda round count and the springs are fine.
RickyRifle
03-07-20, 23:15
FWIW, Mike Pannone likes Springco Blue springs in his M4s:
“And, given the parameters of the test (no lube) and the dramatic increase in shootability using a heavier buffer, I am still a proponent of a buffer heavier than an H.
· With the Sprinco enhanced Blue action spring (or comparable extra-power spring) and an H2 orH3 buffer, unless there is a rigid obstruction present in the barrel extension, the rifle will reliably go into battery.”
https://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/
Genuine question; what problem does a braided spring solve? Is it just a longevity thing? A5 kit spring user here fwiw.
Genuine question; what problem does a braided spring solve? Is it just a longevity thing? A5 kit spring user here fwiw.
They give either higher forces at the same maximum stress or, the same stiffness at a lower maximum stress.
Another thing they do is damps oscillation if the driving force is near the spring's natural frequency.
turnburglar
03-08-20, 12:59
For some reason I remember hearing the buffer spring so much more until I had my own rifles. I mean like renting them at the range or in basic. On all of my personally owned rifles I really don't notice the buffer spring when shooting. If I get out tomorrow Im really gonna listen for it.
Genuine question; what problem does a braided spring solve? Is it just a longevity thing? A5 kit spring user here fwiw.
The only thing I've seen them do is cause 'why does my AR malf?' threads online.
The only thing I've seen them do is cause 'why does my AR malf?' threads online.
If the G42 spring and buffer causes your rifle to malfunction then it probably wasn’t built correctly.
With a reasonably gassed gun I run H2/Blue Sprinco. The less mass I can have slamming back and forth, with complete reliability, the less perceived movement of dot/reticle.
Same principle as “the lightest recoil spring that works” in a 1911.
With a reasonably gassed gun I run H2/Blue Sprinco. The less mass I can have slamming back and forth, with complete reliability, the less perceived movement of dot/reticle.
Same principle as “the lightest recoil spring that works” in a 1911.
People with shot timers understand this.
Everyone else tries to run the heaviest buffer and stiffest spring possible for some reason.
MountainRaven
03-08-20, 20:12
Genuine question; what problem does a braided spring solve? Is it just a longevity thing? A5 kit spring user here fwiw.
I believe Geissele claims a combination of increased spring pressure and longer spring life with the Super 42 spring/buffer kit.
They give either higher forces at the same maximum stress or, the same stiffness at a lower maximum stress.
Another thing they do is damps oscillation if the driving force is near the spring's natural frequency.
I believe Geissele claims a combination of increased spring pressure and longer spring life with the Super 42 spring/buffer kit.
Thanks for the answers.
People with shot timers understand this.
Everyone else tries to run the heaviest buffer and stiffest spring possible for some reason.
Any data on how much split times can improve. I’m all about reliability but if I can have my cake and eat it too? Why not.
Then throw an H buffer and a Colt spring in your receiver extension and enjoy. Unless you're running a suppressed SBR , you're not helping reliability with the heavy buffers and springs.
I love Geissele but the super 42 is by far their worst product.
Braided has a faster load rate. Its rate x rate squared instead of constant force per length, and they don’t load predictably. Also if one coil breaks, the combined effect is lost exponentially. Also more $ to make. Just use a std spring from springco.
Round wire, stainless, Colt.
The End! :)
I've gotten to the point now where if Colt, KAC or LMT aren't doing it, I avoid it.
With that said, under what circumstances are extra power buffer springs (sprinco blue/red) recommended?
The_War_Wagon
03-11-20, 20:30
Flat wire springs were the "hotness" for about 5 minutes... 10+ years ago. I have a flat wire spring still in my HD rifle, and I can't even remember who made it.
I've gotten to the point now where if Colt, KAC or LMT aren't doing it, I avoid it.
With that said, under what circumstances are extra power buffer springs (sprinco blue/red) recommended?
Typically if you have an over-gassed rifle a blue spring might help a bit. Red is recommended for a higher caliber/high recoil cartridges or possibly some piston guns (somebody said HK416 maybe). I would avoid red in 5.56/300. People seem to use Sprinco Blue in a properly gassed guns without issues. A slightly stronger spring might be able to help in adverse conditions with BCG going into battery and stripping a round from the magazine. Theoretically might help with the bolt bounce, but haven't seen a factual confirmation.
One advantage of CS Sprinco springs is that they last lifetime of your lower without need of replacement. Primary disadvantage (can't confirm it, but some people reported so) - more prone to rust in humid climates or wet conditions.
For me it's a minor expense if you take into consideration a service life of the gun. You basically never have to replace or think about the spring in your lower. Sprinco Springs are super consistent as well in both length and strength unlike different brand springs you'll find on the market.
People seem to use Sprinco Blue in a properly gassed guns without issues...
..A slightly stronger spring might be able to help in adverse conditions...
..Primary disadvantage (can't confirm it, but some people reported so) - more prone to rust in humid climates or wet conditions.
.
I had issues with the Blue spring in a properly gassed gun. Unusual stoppages.
They might help in adverse conditions, like a sooty chamber with a can.
Yup, rust.
Why? Which?
Which?
Depends on gun and how it’s gassed. White it green usually. I don’t run the extra power or enhanced springs.
Why?
Quality that has not let me down. I’ve ran them for years when a replacement was needed
I see little downside to using a stainless steel Tubb flatwire, and it's one less component I have to worry about replacing.
I see little downside to using a stainless steel Tubb flatwire, and it's one less component I have to worry about replacing.
Flat springs fatigue faster and if they are not the correct size the can side load and break easier. Flat springs work best with a guide rod vs a reciprocating buffer.
Is there an empirical data available for the Tubbs flat wire spring?
Flat springs fatigue faster and if they are not the correct size the can side load and break easier. Flat springs work best with a guide rod vs a reciprocating buffer.Have there been any significant number of cases where these particular springs actually wore out faster than standard springs due to fatigue or breakage?
If not, it would seem such concerns would be more theoretical conjecture than borne out in practice.
I had issues with the Blue spring in a properly gassed gun. Unusual stoppages.
They might help in adverse conditions, like a sooty chamber with a can.
Yup, rust.
Thanks, good data point. The only SprinCo I've used was a "Green" with A5 setup without issues. I've been contemplating if I should continue to use Sprinco (not necessarily "Green") in other configurations. After your comments I might not. Although Iraqgunz was of a very high opinion of them. That's why I even started using them in the first place.
Thanks, good data point. The only SprinCo I've used was a "Green" with A5 setup without issues. I've been contemplating if I should continue to use Sprinco (not necessarily "Green") in other configurations. After your comments I might not. Although Iraqgunz was of a very high opinion of them. That's why I even started using them in the first place.
Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against Sprinco, I just don’t think they are a universal requirement, and can have unintended consequences. If you have a worn stock action spring that needs replaced, and you do better than I do about cleaning and storage, and not getting rained on, or if you live in Arizona, then a Sprinco White or Hot White or Green is perfectly suitable.
I translated OP’s question as “how do I spend money to make my rifle not work?”
I put a Sprinco Blue in a 6920 back in '09. It lived in a ranch truck and went everywhere with me and a couple of guys that work on our places and did fine until about 2013.
Gun wouldn't run one night.
I got back up there and Sprinco Blue had pits/corrosion.
Rebuilt the bolt, new Colt spring, gun is still fine almost a decade later.
So, for a low round count, poorly maintained gun, stainless is the only choice.
In my 6.8 build I run a flat wire and in my block 2 556 build I am working on has a standard spring.
Flat? Hell no
Braided? Hell no
Colt/vltor A5/bcm/lmt? Yes
Blue Sprinco or A5 with Green Sprinco. I have several rifles with blue sprinco, one with white and one with green.
Blue Sprinco or A5 with Green Sprinco. I have several rifles with blue sprinco, one with white and one with green.
I replace all my springs with Sprinco and forget about them. Sprinco will give you recommendations on which color coded weight to use. The older Colt M4 liked blue, and white standard weight. At some point during production Colt M4 liked red, I have one also. Built a Colt XM4A2 clone and it likes red. You can time your ejection. Having additional force ensures you don’t get a failure to seat a new cartridge or skip past a cartridge in the mag due to excessive BCG speeds which also causes bolt bounce. I also use their ejector and extractor springs. My newest Colt likes red on timing but works perfectly with standard weight. If you are doing the A5 route you’ll need green. I pay to have them cryo. I never have failures once I get the proper weight based on ejection timing. You can run them dirty also if need be. Older Colt has 12k+ with no malfunctions to date. Barrel still shoots as good as it always has, bolt is still good. Swapped a red for a Colt spring from a 6920 to a Valkyrie build and it worked perfectly with a MGI buffer, and shot a 1000rd course with Colt in OEM with zero malfunctions. So Colt springs are good they just don’t last as long. Been told 3-5k before they tend to get weak, also heard stories of up to 10k. Who knows but with Sprinco I forget about the springs and focus on other wear items. I used to use piano wire springs before Sprinco also liked them. Still have a few I pulled that work great. Would never do braided or flat springs due to cost and lack of need. I do use a Flatspring CroSil guide rod in my 1911A1 and it’s great. Have well over 10k in my 1911A1 and no malfunctions since I installed the flat spring at about 200rds.
I use Tubbs flatwire. Scroll down to video for explanation.
In a nutshell it puts more pressure on the locked bolt, stays consistent throughout the cycle unlike an increased weight spring that slams home the bolt, and is rated for 500k cycles. As for those that have a hard time installing/removing a flatwire, maybe you should take up another hobby.
http://www.davidtubb.com/ar15-bufferspring
I have always used blue springco springs with either H or H2 buffers (H2 for 12.5 and 10.5 barrels), barrels are either BCM/Colt/LMT and I have never had any issues. However, I did learn from this thread the the springco springs are susceptible to rust.
I like this flatwire spring
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/products/ar/ar-stock/ar-carbine-flat-wire-spring.html&ved=2ahUKEwj37dL4_tnoAhVyRN8KHdYIA1sQFjAGegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0rvb380x8sMrhfi7RxvpS3&cshid=1586388899905
As far as difficulty installing or removal, I very quickly got the hang of it and I get it in and out of the tube as quickly as a standard spring
Send it...
04-13-20, 00:50
Sprinco Springs for the win. They never have failed me. Highly recommended.
I put just over 2,500 rounds through an SBR running geissele's super 42 with an h3 buffer and have had zero issues. This was over the course of about 4 months, so I cannot speak for corrosion but looking at it closely it looks new. I'm not an engineer, but the braided portion makes sense to me meaning that I do not put in the same category as the tubbs or similar.
well i ordered a blue spring for my new build thanks to this post
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