View Full Version : Red Dot choices
I have owned and used most of the Aimpoint red dots for a number of years now and like most here, am partial to the T2 on the AR platform. I purchased a Sig Sauer Romeo 5 for use on an inexpensive PCC (Ruger PC9) a while back and was impressed with it especially given the cost differential. My question is can anyone tell me how two seemingly similar products can have such a wide cost differential.
The reason for my question is that my son just purchased a S&W M&P Sport 2 and i as a good dad provided the Vickers sling, Colt side swivel and extra Magpul mags. He wants an Aimpoint because i have one but is it really that much better than a $140.00 Romeo 5?
I feel like there was recently a thread of Sig Romeos dying, I think one poster reported that his department had exchanged a magnitude of them due to failures.
I only trust Aimpoint.
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I would have no issue running a Romeo... even for home defense. But if I were fighting in the military, I'd spare no expense on my sight choice.
I have no doubt that there's a durability and electronics quality issue between an aimpoint, and a chinese RDS.
I have a Romeo 5 on my 9MM AR-SBR. Its been fine, but it's just a range toy.
Everything else has Aimpoint.
I have had very good luck with every generation of over a dozen Primary Arms/Holosun/Romeo 5 RDS over the past decade. Including an early PA RDS gas tube mounted on an AK. I would even argue that many of my newer ones have less bloom/better dot quality than my T1s.
My only recommendation would be to replace the mount. These seem to be much cheaper in comparison and I have seen many stripped and even broken clamping screws and mechanisms. Although it does seem wrong to spend $60-100 on a new mount for a $150 RDS, I believe it increases reliability 100% [emoji106]
Note: I only mount these RDS on my "fun guns". The rest all wear Aimpoint or Trijicon as a matter of QC and statistical principle.
Dennis.
Aimpoints are probably (arguably) the best quality, but if on a budget one has to consider the intended use for the rifle. I have owned Aimpoints, Holosun, DI Optical, Vortex, and a few others that were ok. The best (as far a durability) were the Aimpoint, DI Optical (South Korean Military) and Holosun's. We allowed several LEO's to try their Vortex RDS to qualify in our patrol-rifle courses but none of them (six or 7) were able to complete the course, so we excluded them from our acceptable RDS's for duty. If you wonder why the price difference, it will probably come down to where they are produced, labor and components quality.
P.S We tested several of the Vortex rifle scopes (not RDS's) and they make some really nice scopes, just a little too fragile with their "RDS's.
gunnerblue
03-25-20, 12:01
If cost is the issue, good, used Aimpoint Pros can be had for no more than ~$350 here and on other sites. My organization issues them en masse with no complaints. To that end, we also authorize T2’s (my preference as well) and Romeos, although I’ve never seen the latter issues.
I also was shocked how well the Romeo dot was clean and how it triturated well from zero to max. Very impressive for $125 to the door.
PB
... We allowed several LEO's to try their Vortex RDS to qualify in our patrol-rifle courses but none of them (six or 7) were able to complete the course, so we excluded them from our acceptable RDS's for duty....
Which RDS? The newer micro ones and/or the older AA ones?
Thanks!
Dennis.
$150 SIG Romeo vs. $810 Aimpoint T2 (I believe the T2 replaced the T1, even though there are probably still new T1 sights out there for sale); ~$660 more for Aimpoint.
Marketing gets a bit complicated from R&D/production/price to consumer.
What could be reasons to justify Aimpoint charging more than SIG:
SIG production costs in China vs. Aimpoint in Sweden: +$200
SIG brand name vs. Aimpoint's name: +$150
Possible or perceived design & parts quality: +150
10 year Aimpoint warranty vs. SIG's 5 year (on the electronics) warranty: $150
This gets into what-the-market-will-bear; demand in how many can be sold at a given price; Aimpoint's projected profit vs. cost to develop and manufacture over a product's life-span; what costs might already have been absorbed with prior product development.
Personally, I liked Trijicon's MRO sight (currently mounted on an AK47, which is priced in between the Aimpoint and SIG. I tried one Holosun but must have gotten a bad one with glare when looking through the optic during the day which appeared sort of what the "Northern Lights" would look like. On an AR15, I've got a newer style Eotech, also, but I like the MRO a bit more.
As others have said, it comes down to what you, the end-user, can afford or is willing to pay, coupled with perceived needs/wants; e.g., I like good optics, but don't need to pay extra for night-vision capability.
titsonritz
03-25-20, 13:12
Aimpoint or Trijicon. **** commie chink bullshit.
everready73
03-25-20, 13:19
I think a used Aimpoint Pro for $300 is a good choice that wont break the bank
If your kid only has one rifle, go Aimpoint or Trijicon.
If you want your kid to have a RDS that will last for many many years go Aimpoint. An Aimpoint Pro (do they still make them?) is a great deal. I changed the PRO mount after a year or so, but you can do that any time. A Trijicon MRO is rugged as well.
I have a Pro, a couple of T-1s, a T-2, and several MROs (I bought the MROs when they were cheap).
I had an EOTech that failed, so I sold it back to EOTech.
I have some Primary Arms and a Holosun that I put on .22s and fun guns. They work, but I would be very hesitant to put one of these on a go-to defense rifle.
I had one of the cheap RDS develop a tendency to go out, but it was sitting on the gas tube of an AK pistol fun blaster.
You could buy a pretty damn nice LPVO for Aimpoint money.
Never had a single problem with a Trijicon or Aimpoint.
I'm a firm believer in buy once cry once, based on my experience.
grizzlyblake
03-25-20, 14:56
I've used the Aimpoint PRO, T2, and Trijicon MRO.
The T2 is a fantastic sight, especially because it has very minimal parallax. It is expensive however.
The RMO to me has a better form factor and controls, but does suffer from worse parallax. For a general purpose blaster it doesn't matter much and is well worth $400.
Troutrunner
03-25-20, 16:43
Don't forget about the H2. I don't need the increased water submersion and night vision capabilities of the T2.
I have been extremely impressed with the Vortex Crossfire. I used to run Aimpoint Micros exclusively for years but sold them off after getting into LPVOs. Last year I wanted a small RDS for another build and bought the Crossfire from Grant at G&R Tactical. The reticle looks crisp and is nicer then the Aimpoints. Mine has been on for 6+ months with no battery issues and has been tossed around in the trunk of my car. I have it on a Geiselle mount and it holds zero after being removed. Kyle Defoor has been using one and is impressed. I like mine better then my old Aimpoint Micros and they are $120ish new.
For years I was an Aimpoint fanboy. They I discovered the larger MRO aperture and appreciated the FOV it brought. Lately, however (and I'm almost ashamed to admit), the Holosun 512C has been my go-to. I even recently sold a couple of new MRO's right here once I saw how great the Holosun works. Yes, it's chicom. Yes, it's "cheap". But the results speak for themselves. I'm sure others on this board operate more operationally than me, but having purposely kicked this thing around trying to get it to break, I could not. At around $300, I was hoping it would die and I could write it off as cheap junk, but it just won't die. Short of running it over with a car I think I subjected it to more abuse than one could reasonably expect an optic to survive. It holds zero with the best of them, durable as hell, super clear glass and a sharper dot than my old MRO. This isn't a shill for them, but if you haven't tried one yet, I suggest you do before scratching it off your list...
I have three MROs, and have been very pleased with their performance. Recently I purchased a couple of Sig Romeo 4Ts for a pair of new rifles. They were on sale within the price range of a normal MRO, and well below the regular price of a 4T. My impressions so far are all favorable. They appear to be of very high quality, built like "tanks" and with a factory mount that compares well to the Geissele mount for the MROs. Very heavy duty. The 4Ts also have a solar panel which extends their battery life to "100,00" hours (claimed). The glass is very clear and they have a choice of four recticles, including the classic red dot, and also the red "circle of death" a la Eotech. I have to say I have been impressed with the Sig Romeo 4Ts. Granted, they are the top of the line in the Romeo lineup, and it shows. They are high quality sights and I have no problem relying on them. I am a fan.
"Which RDS? The newer micro ones and/or the older AA ones?
Thanks!
Dennis."
Hello Dennis, I really don't recall which models were tested (it's been a couple of years), and I'm not that familiar with their "RDS" line.
I personally would look for a used Aimpoint PRO or H1.. For a defense rifle
For plinking or range use..PA gets my vote
grizzlyblake
03-25-20, 20:29
I have owned and used most of the Aimpoint red dots for a number of years now and like most here, am partial to the T2 on the AR platform. I purchased a Sig Sauer Romeo 5 for use on an inexpensive PCC (Ruger PC9) a while back and was impressed with it especially given the cost differential. My question is can anyone tell me how two seemingly similar products can have such a wide cost differential.
The reason for my question is that my son just purchased a S&W M&P Sport 2 and i as a good dad provided the Vickers sling, Colt side swivel and extra Magpul mags. He wants an Aimpoint because i have one but is it really that much better than a $140.00 Romeo 5?
The simple answer to your question is that the Sig is made in China. It’s cheap for the same reason everything that is made in China is cheap. They’ll probably work great until they don’t. I personally would not use a China made optic on a gun that could potentially see defensive use. I would use one on a gun that is strictly a toy but I don’t own any guns like that.
Hammer_Man
03-25-20, 20:45
I would recommend he save up for an Aimpoint. I've never had an issue with one.
BoringGuy45
03-25-20, 21:50
You can't go wrong with an Aimpoint PRO.
Trijicon MRO hands down. Durable as can be and you can’t beat the price. I bought my last one for $338 new. PA has some great deals on them from
Time to time. Other option would be a used T-1. You should be able to get a second hand one on the EE for around $500
I’m done buying Chinese optics, just on principle. I’d rather spend another bill and a half to get a known quality option and not send more money to the CCP.
My Aimpoints have been great. PRO is an affordable option, as is the Trijicon MRO
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200326/5bbbefe48c768d89a55be00e359c745c.jpg
I’ve got Aimpoint Ts, Trijicon, Nightforce...
However I do also have primary arms RDS 50k on a couple ARs. They run
Renegade04
03-26-20, 10:07
The way I look at it, if you are going to have a weapon for a real-world situation, you want to have a really good quality optic. I have several RDSs that include a SIG ROMEO 5, HOLOSUN, PA, and VORTEX, but on my fighting ARs, I have Trijicons and Aimpoints. I would not have anything of less quality on them. For HD, a lesser quality RDS would be acceptable as long as it is of decent quality. For a dedicated range gun, I would still have a decent quality optic. I do not like having to replace cheap junk, so I buy what I know will be of good quality and fitting for the purpose of the weapon. When it comes to foreign-made optics, you have to do you homework and understand exactly what it is you are looking to buy. My favorite RDS of late is the MRO. I really like it. I have a few of these.
jackblack73
03-26-20, 10:16
I have three Primary Arms red dots. I’ve always thought I’d replace them with Aimpoints if they broke or proved unreliable. Oldest one is 10 years old now and all going strong.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-26-20, 18:02
I have a couple of the chinese knockoff Aimpoint Micros from Primary Arms and Holosun. They're on my kids M&P 1522 and a .22LR MP5 that we have. They work fine for those but I just don't believe the durability is there.
When you can get a used Comp M2 for $200 or a used PRO for $300, it's hard for me to say a $120 chinese red dot is a good choice for a person's only rifle.
I really am liking the Holosun optics with the EO-type reticle.
The optics and flashlight industries would do well to seek a country other than china to make their cheaper lower quality stuff.
Adrenaline_6
03-28-20, 20:01
The optics and flashlight industries would do well to seek a country other than china to make their cheaper lower quality stuff.
Actually, if the flashlight Manufacturer's like SF and the optics makers like Aimpoint would charge people what they are actually worth, there wouldn't be a problem with alternate China manufacturer options. Their greed makes it possible, nobody else.
Actually, if the flashlight Manufacturer's like SF and the optics makers like Aimpoint would charge people what they are actually worth, there wouldn't be a problem with alternate China manufacturer options. Their greed makes it possible, nobody else.
Its cheaper to make stuff if you just rip off IP instead of doing RDT&E and pay your employees in peanuts.
me2hootyhoo
03-29-20, 18:02
Its cheaper to make stuff if you just rip off IP instead of doing RDT&E and pay your employees in peanuts.
The import brands seem to be giving the big names a run on innovation and quality these days. Holosun, Sig, Vortex have some nice optics that probably have no stolen tech. Primary arms has some unique optics. I may be mistaken, but aimpoint doesn’t offer solar, reticle options, color choices, shake awake. Also, Aimpoint is most definitely priced extremely high, $700+ for a red dot. Some of the big names in the industry are running Vortex and Holosun. I own Trijicon MROs, Eotechs, Vortex and Holosun optics. Honestly, I prefer the Vortex and Holosun for reticle and clarity. Time will tell for reliability. I am running Holosun dots with upgraded mounts on go to rifles.
Actually, if the flashlight Manufacturer's like SF and the optics makers like Aimpoint would charge people what they are actually worth, there wouldn't be a problem with alternate China manufacturer options. Their greed makes it possible, nobody else.
It occurs to me that I have a tendency to butt heads with you on the subject of anything that takes batteries. So, while I will likely continue to disagree, I apologize for being an asshole. No hard feelings, bro.
Adrenaline_6
03-30-20, 08:03
It occurs to me that I have a tendency to butt heads with you on the subject of anything that takes batteries. So, while I will likely continue to disagree, I apologize for being an asshole. No hard feelings, bro.
No hard feelings bro. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Although I agree with you on your point of it being easier to rip off instead of doing RDT&E, those days have passed for the most part on optics and flashlights. Especially for flashlights. SF has been behind on performance for awhile now and I have good experience with a few brands durability wise that I would have no problem trusting. Right now, brands like SF and Aimpoint are riding the coat tails of their reputation of being one of few only go to performance and durability brands and charging premium prices.
The T-1/T-2 design is old. Not that anything is wrong with at all, but it is an old design that doesn't justify the primo price anymore. They have more than made up for the RDT&E on it. Now they just choose to ass rape customers. Like the US auto market in the 70's and 80's, if they don't change their mantra, they will ride their coat tails into oblivion. As data on products like Holosun, etc prove to be just as reliable and the die hard "only these products" crowd dwindles, and it will, they will be forced to change or suffer the same outcome.
MikhailBarracuda91
03-30-20, 17:23
https://youtu.be/q9Fbj4qVR3A
Ian and Carl go into pretty good depth about why Aimpoint cost so much. It's very informative
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I have owned and used most of the Aimpoint red dots for a number of years now and like most here, am partial to the T2 on the AR platform. I purchased a Sig Sauer Romeo 5 for use on an inexpensive PCC (Ruger PC9) a while back and was impressed with it especially given the cost differential. My question is can anyone tell me how two seemingly similar products can have such a wide cost differential.
The reason for my question is that my son just purchased a S&W M&P Sport 2 and i as a good dad provided the Vickers sling, Colt side swivel and extra Magpul mags. He wants an Aimpoint because i have one but is it really that much better than a $140.00 Romeo 5?
I'd consider the used optic market if you wanted to save some money on an Aimpoint over the cost of new. I'm not a made in China gear fan, so I can't help you with a Romeo 5 vs Aimpoint opinion.
justin_247
04-01-20, 11:01
IRRELEVANT.
Mysteryman
04-01-20, 16:22
The import brands seem to be giving the big names a run on innovation and quality these days. Holosun, Sig, Vortex have some nice optics that probably have no stolen tech. Primary arms has some unique optics. I may be mistaken, but aimpoint doesn’t offer solar, reticle options, color choices, shake awake. Also, Aimpoint is most definitely priced extremely high, $700+ for a red dot. Some of the big names in the industry are running Vortex and Holosun. I own Trijicon MROs, Eotechs, Vortex and Holosun optics. Honestly, I prefer the Vortex and Holosun for reticle and clarity. Time will tell for reliability. I am running Holosun dots with upgraded mounts on go to rifles.
Trijicon had solar, it wasn't well received. Shake awake is a gimmick. An optic with battery life measured in years like an Aimpoint, doesn't need the added complexity of a shake awake system. Reticle choices are personal, the dot has been doing the job for decades. Colour comes at the cost of battery life, and red is an excellent contrasting colour.
titsonritz
04-01-20, 16:38
The import brands seem to be giving the big names a run on innovation and quality these days. Holosun, Sig, Vortex have some nice optics that probably have no stolen tech. Primary arms has some unique optics. I may be mistaken, but aimpoint doesn’t offer solar, reticle options, color choices, shake awake. Also, Aimpoint is most definitely priced extremely high, $700+ for a red dot. Some of the big names in the industry are running Vortex and Holosun. I own Trijicon MROs, Eotechs, Vortex and Holosun optics. Honestly, I prefer the Vortex and Holosun for reticle and clarity. Time will tell for reliability. I am running Holosun dots with upgraded mounts on go to rifles.
Personally, I don't give a rip about any of that stuff. All I want in a RDS is for it to be brutal tough, have extreme battery live and not be made in China. Philippines, Japan no problem but commie whores that put lead paint in children's toys, poisons in our dog's food, rip of our tech can **** off and die.
Personally, I don't give a rip about any of that stuff. All I want in a RDS is for it to be brutal tough, have extreme battery live and not be made in China. Philippines, Japan no problem but commie whores that put lead paint in children's toys, poisons in our dog's food, rip of our tech can **** off and die.
I will befriend you in the toilet paper boogaloo.
SeriousStudent
04-01-20, 18:29
Personally, I don't give a rip about any of that stuff. All I want in a RDS is for it to be brutal tough, have extreme battery live and not be made in China. Philippines, Japan no problem but commie whores that put lead paint in children's toys, poisons in our dog's food, rip of our tech can **** off and die.
Agreed. If one good thing comes out of this current situation,. it is that people will hopefully pull more production back onshore.
Heaven forbid we have some jobs for men and women who like making things with their hands, and take pride in their work. There are a lot of terrific companies here in the US that make tremendous products. We need more of them.
Any fans of the Lucid HD7 with auto-brightness to be had here?
Adrenaline_6
04-01-20, 21:33
Agreed. If one good thing comes out of this current situation,. it is that people will hopefully pull more production back onshore.
Heaven forbid we have some jobs for men and women who like making things with their hands, and take pride in their work. There are a lot of terrific companies here in the US that make tremendous products. We need more of them.
I hope more production is pulled back onshore. On the flip side, I don't care where a product is made if the company chooses to ass rape customers on price because they know people will buy it anyway cuz "Mericuh!" or their competition is "anti-mericuh". I will not blindly buy USA and take it in the keester. No one should. That doesn't do any favors for the consumer and doesn't do any favors to innovation. A company that exploits this is a sh*thole company and is exploiting the very crowd that supports them.
Mysteryman
04-02-20, 01:58
I hope more production is pulled back onshore. On the flip side, I don't care where a product is made if the company chooses to ass rape customers on price because they know people will buy it anyway cuz "Mericuh!" or their competition is "anti-mericuh". I will not blindly buy USA and take it in the keester. No one should. That doesn't do any favors for the consumer and doesn't do any favors to innovation. A company that exploits this is a sh*thole company and is exploiting the very crowd that supports them.
The term you're looking for to describe businesses who command what the market will bear for price is called capitalism. Everything we buy is overpriced, it's up to the consumer to decide if it is worth the asking price. No one who willingly paid for a product has ever been ripped off.
Purchasing a USA made product on that merit alone is foolish. By the same token, people buy cheaply priced products on price alone. Usually said cheap products are made in China. I'm all for quality products not made in China or other shit hole nations, unfortunately there isn't much choice when it comes to a lot of products. The sad reality is that offshore manufacturing was and is driven by the consumer and their desire for more shit, at lower prices. Walmart... It's their entire business model, cheap shit and lots of it.
People in the Western world on the whole are driven to want and buy more shit than ever before. It's an insatiable appetite with no rhyme or reason, just the desire to buy more shit. How many on this forum have multiple AR's for no other reason than to have more, or build another? How many people have 3, 4, 5 pairs of shoes. How many people have to get the newest cell phone, or a new car every couple years?
People in the Western world on the whole are driven to want and buy more shit than ever before. It's an insatiable appetite with no rhyme or reason, just the desire to buy more shit. How many on this forum have multiple AR's for no other reason than to have more, or build another? How many people have 3, 4, 5 pairs of shoes. How many people have to get the newest cell phone, or a new car every couple years?
I was with you on everything, until you mentioned shoes.
Adrenaline_6
04-02-20, 10:08
The term you're looking for to describe businesses who command what the market will bear for price is called capitalism. Everything we buy is overpriced, it's up to the consumer to decide if it is worth the asking price. No one who willingly paid for a product has ever been ripped off.
Purchasing a USA made product on that merit alone is foolish. By the same token, people buy cheaply priced products on price alone. Usually said cheap products are made in China. I'm all for quality products not made in China or other shit hole nations, unfortunately there isn't much choice when it comes to a lot of products. The sad reality is that offshore manufacturing was and is driven by the consumer and their desire for more shit, at lower prices. Walmart... It's their entire business model, cheap shit and lots of it.
People in the Western world on the whole are driven to want and buy more shit than ever before. It's an insatiable appetite with no rhyme or reason, just the desire to buy more shit. How many on this forum have multiple AR's for no other reason than to have more, or build another? How many people have 3, 4, 5 pairs of shoes. How many people have to get the newest cell phone, or a new car every couple years?
If the first part of your statement was true, there wouldn't be a thing called price gouging. Sure, I agree with you on people pay what they are willing to pay and that it is capitalism. The problem with your second statement is that sure, just buying on USA made alone IS foolish, but don't think that doesn't happen for a few reasons.
My previous post just mentioned that while you can command a price that people are willing to pay, if the margin you are making on that product is too high, don't be surprised if another company comes in and hands you your ass...no matter where that product is made. That also is the double-edged sword called capitalism.
That company cannot bitch about it either, if they were living it up when times were good and taking advantage of the demand and the high prices consumers were willing to pay at one time and didn't see that their product is no longer "worth" what they are asking over other brands and they don't adapt and innovate to keep that advantage, then that is on them. Also capitalism. Like I mentioned previously...it happened to the US auto industry...it will happen here too.
What red dot (besides Leupold) is US made?
I want Aimpoint to make a two dot sight to simplify holdovers at closer range.
What red dot (besides Leupold) is US made?
I want Aimpoint to make a two dot sight to simplify holdovers at closer range.
Trijicon
The import brands seem to be giving the big names a run on innovation and quality these days.
Maybe in the fantasy world of internet forums and youtube they do.
Primary arms has some unique optics. I may be mistaken, but aimpoint doesn’t offer solar, reticle options, color choices, shake awake. .
An aimpoint doesn't have any of those options because they don't need those options. They don't need the electro-mechanical complications. The battery life is 5 years on a daylight bright setting.
Maybe in the fantasy world of internet forums and youtube they do.
An aimpoint doesn't have any of those options because they don't need those options. They don't need the electro-mechanical complications. The battery life is 5 years on a daylight bright setting.
Depends on the daylight. And it’s not five years on a WML bright setting. And I think gun forums like this one are one of the last places they’re holding on. The vast majority of the shooting community that I see has already turned to the cheaper brands.
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me2hootyhoo
04-03-20, 17:11
Maybe in the fantasy world of internet forums and youtube they do.
An aimpoint doesn't have any of those options because they don't need those options. They don't need the electro-mechanical complications. The battery life is 5 years on a daylight bright setting.
Your car doesn’t need power steering, or intermittent wipers, radio, A/C etc. either, but ya sure like those features. I made a point that people like the options. Vortex, Sig and Holosun optics are here to stay. If their reputations continue as they are, Aimpoint will need something to stand on other than simple and reliable (maybe affordable would be nice). So far it seems like everyone is happy with their Chinese import dots from these companies. They are being used and abused day in and out by reputable folks in the industry. Oh and shake awake is hardly new or unreliable.
Also have read stories, yes on the interweb, that high dots were DOA, brand new outta the box. Not my experience, but $700 doesn’t guarantee it’s better.
This is going to be just like the Asian car manufacturers overtaking the auto industry, and everyone here is like, “no way, I paid $800 for an Aimpoint, so that means it’ll never happen” It’s happening.
"Battery life according to Aimpoint: 5 years (50,000 hrs) of continuous use at pos. 8 and over 10 months at pos. 10. In our experience, it is best to leave the T2 set on 11/12 for optimal use during the day, while 9/12 is good at night."
I dont really care where the dot comes from as long as it works. That being said my HD rifel wears an Aimpoint. I would have no issues should I be in the market. With the new Holosun 4xx and 5xx series of optics. And we should stop comparing the higher end of holosun to primary arms or sig unless you mean the Romeo5m. The Chinese optics are not all created equal.
Agreed. If one good thing comes out of this current situation,. it is that people will hopefully pull more production back onshore.
Heaven forbid we have some jobs for men and women who like making things with their hands, and take pride in their work. There are a lot of terrific companies here in the US that make tremendous products. We need more of them.
1000 x THIS ^
Returning to the topic:
Does anyone use/love the Aimpoint CompM4 anymore? When I see an Aimpoint at Ben Avery or just out in the sticks it’s almost always a T2.
Mysteryman
04-05-20, 03:53
Returning to the topic:
Does anyone use/love the Aimpoint CompM4 anymore? When I see an Aimpoint at Ben Avery or just out in the sticks it’s almost always a T2.
Sure do, love my comp M4's as bulky and heavy as they are(by comparison).
MikhailBarracuda91
04-05-20, 04:29
Returning to the topic:
Does anyone use/love the Aimpoint CompM4 anymore? When I see an Aimpoint at Ben Avery or just out in the sticks it’s almost always a T2.Yeah it's my favorite red dot. The battery life is incredible and the glass is crystal clear.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Still rocking my Comp ML3 with a Larue QD mount. If it ain't broke...
Returning to the topic:
Does anyone use/love the Aimpoint CompM4 anymore? When I see an Aimpoint at Ben Avery or just out in the sticks it’s almost always a T2.
-Yes.
I usually avoid commenting on comments about where a product is made verses its quality. I do find it interesting that some people are very concerned about where some Sig products are made but not where the Aimpoint (Sweden) or Steiner (Germany) or even their favorite Vortex (Japan or China based on model) is made. Trijicon is made in the USA.
I still have my M3, as well as the MRO (& my Steiner P4Xi). However, since I have more uppers than lowers I didn't want to spend that much extra cash for each upper. Therefore I picked up a couple of Sig Romeo 4Hs and have several thousand rounds through them without issue. They are smaller and lighter than the Aimpoint M3 but cheaper than the T2. The dot is very crisp for me, clearer than the Aimpoint or Eotech due to vision issues. Glass is clear even though I'm only looking for the red dot. It's not a scope. The T2 is great and I would love to own one just problematic at 3x the price for a range gun. Everyone should make up their mind based on their needs.
Mysteryman
04-05-20, 16:59
I usually avoid commenting on comments about where a product is made verses its quality. I do find it interesting that some people are very concerned about where some Sig products are made but not where the Aimpoint (Sweden) or Steiner (Germany) or even their favorite Vortex (Japan or China based on model) is made. Trijicon is made in the USA.
I still have my M3, as well as the MRO (& my Steiner P4Xi). However, since I have more uppers than lowers I didn't want to spend that much extra cash for each upper. Therefore I picked up a couple of Sig Romeo 4Hs and have several thousand rounds through them without issue. They are smaller and lighter than the Aimpoint M3 but cheaper than the T2. The dot is very crisp for me, clearer than the Aimpoint or Eotech due to vision issues. Glass is clear even though I'm only looking for the red dot. It's not a scope. The T2 is great and I would love to own one just problematic at 3x the price for a range gun. Everyone should make up their mind based on their needs.
Sweden, Germany,Japan are democratic nations, all with excellent records for quality materials and craftsmanship. China is a shithole. Nothing wrong with picking an optic based on your needs and how it performs for you. However, some of us prefer to put our morals ahead of our dollars and not buy garbage built in shithole countries.
Sweden, Germany,Japan are democratic nations, all with excellent records for quality materials and craftsmanship. China is a shithole. Nothing wrong with picking an optic based on your needs and how it performs for you. However, some of us prefer to put our morals ahead of our dollars and not buy garbage built in shithole countries.
You certainly have the right to feel that way. Hopefully not while typing on a MacBook, iPad or iPhone (all made in China) and wearing sneakers made in China. Got to stick with the program Ralph.
You certainly have the right to feel that way. Hopefully not while typing on a MacBook, iPad or iPhone (all made in China) and wearing sneakers made in China. Got to stick with the program Ralph.
This is a disingenuous argument. Avoiding all Chinese manufactured items is impossible in modern life ( if you don’t believe me, read A Year Without Made In China, written 12 years ago), but when you have a choice between $150 and not enriching our strategic enemies, you should choose to buy American, or at least, some sort of mostly free nation. You will have a better sight as well.
F the CCP
Adrenaline_6
04-05-20, 18:48
This is a disingenuous argument. Avoiding all Chinese manufactured items is impossible in modern life ( if you don’t believe me, read A Year Without Made In China, written 12 years ago), but when you have a choice between $150 and not enriching our strategic enemies, you should choose to buy American, or at least, some sort of mostly free nation. You will have a better sight as well.
F the CCP
There is another bigger picture way to look at this, which, for some reason, always gets missed by people with your point of view. Regardless of where it is made, a T1/2 or SF shouldn't cost what it does....period...and the reason it remains this way are caused by the same people.
There is another bigger picture way to look at this, which, for some reason, always gets missed by people with your point of view. Regardless of where it is made, a T1/2 or SF shouldn't cost what it does....period...and the reason it remains this way are caused by the same people.
How much should Aimpoint or Trijicon charge for their sights? How would you go about setting the price?
They are maximizing their profit. The companies that make Chinese optics are maximizing theirs.
One is using free market labor and bearing the cost of innovation, the other is using questionable labor sources, other’s R&D, and spotty QC.
As I said, it’s nearly impossible to avoid Chinese made goods entirely. When you have the choice on an luxury item, choose the free world.
This is a disingenuous argument. Avoiding all Chinese manufactured items is impossible in modern life ( if you don’t believe me, read A Year Without Made In China, written 12 years ago), but when you have a choice between $150 and not enriching our strategic enemies, you should choose to buy American, or at least, some sort of mostly free nation. You will have a better sight as well.
F the CCP
I wasn't trying to start a debate here and don't want to continue one if that's what is happening. I was only trying to respond to the OP question. Both the Aimpoint and Trijicon are great optics but if someone can't afford those there are some other less expensive options (Vortex, Sig, Holosun) ignoring where they are made or where their parts are made. No where on the box does the Sig Romeo say that it was made in China. Instead it says assembled in Oregon, USA. But it had to be made somewhere. Earlier models were made in China. I have read that they are now using parts from Japan, but actually I don't know.
Fifteen years ago I worked for a company that moved one of its' manufacturing plants to China. I wasn't happy about it then and nothing has changed. As for optics, I did buy American. I have three Trijicon products. As for disingenuous, per your own comments, which optics are truly made in America and have no non-American parts?
Not the Aimpoint.
MikhailBarracuda91
04-06-20, 03:57
My Sig Romeo 4T says made in Japan underneath the mount. It was assembled in the USA
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
My Sig Romeo 4T says made in Japan underneath the mount. It was assembled in the USA
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
I have been all Trijicon for red dots (MRO) and scopes (accupoint, accupower) until recently. I found a couple of Sig Romeo 4T red dot sights on sale at a price comparable to an MRO. Needing some additional sights for some new uppers, I decided to go ahead and buy them. These are excellent sights. And, as pointed out above, components (glass probably) made in Japan and assembled in USA. Uncle Sam has approved them for Federal authorities to purchase and use. If someone truly wants to avoid foreign optics, then Trijicon is the obvious answer, as is Leupold if you buy their high end products. Both companies make great stuff, as does Sig, mostly in New Hampshire.
Adrenaline_6
04-06-20, 07:00
How much should Aimpoint or Trijicon charge for their sights? How would you go about setting the price?
They are maximizing their profit. The companies that make Chinese optics are maximizing theirs.
One is using free market labor and bearing the cost of innovation, the other is using questionable labor sources, other’s R&D, and spotty QC.
As I said, it’s nearly impossible to avoid Chinese made goods entirely. When you have the choice on an luxury item, choose the free world.
Like I mentioned in a previous post, sure, they are maximizing their profit and that is capitalism, but on the flip side, so is losing business to cheaper options if you are charging the customer too much and relying on the "I don't buy Chinese crap" crowd to do it. Labor and R&D does not justify a +$700 price on a 13 year old design. Spotty QC is the fault of the manufacturer who sets the QC rules and enforces them. Companies like PA, Holosun, Vortex,etc, have set the QC standards higher and enforce them pretty effectively.
What I choose is to pay a fair price for a quality product. I will not blindly brand buy no matter where it is made. That actually stifles innovation and in the end will hurt the company you are supporting because they will ride that false "wave of support" until that wave diminishes and due to capitalism it always does.
Like I mentioned in a previous post, sure, they are maximizing their profit and that is capitalism, but on the flip side, so is losing business to cheaper options if you are charging the customer too much and relying on the "I don't buy Chinese crap" crowd to do it.
Or maybe they are using certified materials sourced from 1st world countries, paying their labor 1st world wages, and use high dollar CNC equipment and testing
Difference between Aimpoint and Chinese knock off:
1. Aimpoint made by the skilled tradesman Johann in Sweden on state of the art equipment with a professional quality system.
2. Chinese knock off made by a 7 year old boy Ding Pow in a sweatshop that has barely enough food to eat.
I bet the profit margin on the 3rd world optic is more than an Aimpoint.
Furthermore, I will not use any red dot that has push button illumination adjustments. They are too slow to adjust on the fly. You never know where you are at in the settings. Manual rotary dial is vastly superior.
Adrenaline_6
04-06-20, 09:55
Or maybe they are using certified materials sourced from 1st world countries, paying their labor 1st world wages, and use high dollar CNC equipment and testing
Difference between Aimpoint and Chinese knock off:
1. Aimpoint made by the skilled tradesman Johann in Sweden on state of the art equipment with a professional quality system.
2. Chinese knock off made by a 7 year old boy Ding Pow in a sweatshop that has barely enough food to eat.
I bet the profit margin on the 3rd world optic is more than an Aimpoint.
If you think that is what PA, Holosun, Vortex are using, you are in absolute denial and part of the problem. Like I mentioned, I don;t have a problem with Aimpoint and SF, just their prices. Johann isn't worth that much and the state of the art equipment you mentioned is over 13 years old.
Furthermore, I will not use any red dot that has push button illumination adjustments. They are too slow to adjust on the fly. You never know where you are at in the settings. Manual rotary dial is vastly superior.
OK...there are other choices as well.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slxz-advanced-rotary-knob-micro-red-dot-sight
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-rotary-knob-25mm-microdot-with-2-moa-dot-reticle
https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-he503r-gd-2-moa-micro-gold-dot-sight
MikhailBarracuda91
04-06-20, 11:00
My brother is a department manager at our local Walmart. He said they got a shipment of electronics in, and inside the shipping packaging there was a handwritten note from a Chinese prisoner (the people who manufacturer our goods) it said his name and his living conditions and that he was wrongly convicted just so he could work for them. Also he asked for us to "please save him"
Really sad. But I'd imagine other Industries in China use prisoners for their workforce too.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
If you think that is what PA, Holosun, Vortex are using, you are in absolute denial and part of the problem. Like I mentioned, I don;t have a problem with Aimpoint and SF, just their prices. Johann isn't worth that much and the state of the art equipment you mentioned is over 13 years old.
No, the problem is the ignorant or cheap consumer demanding the lowest price possible. Then all these 3rd world options appear on the market.
I severely curtailed the amount of gun work I do for people because I'm tired of troubleshooting everyone's problems when they didn't do what I told them to the first time.
Example:
Colt introduced the Expanse line of rifles. It failed. Then, they adulterated the supply chain with these expanse parts that don't have proper identifying Colt markings. We will be dealing with the aftermath of that shit until the end of time. I get weekly emails about it.
OK...there are other choices as well.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slxz-advanced-rotary-knob-micro-red-dot-sight
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-rotary-knob-25mm-microdot-with-2-moa-dot-reticle
https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-he503r-gd-2-moa-micro-gold-dot-sight
I already know about all of that and I won't be buying any of them because I don't have time to chase around mechanical, electrical, and dimensional problems.
Adrenaline_6
04-06-20, 14:52
No, the problem is the ignorant or cheap consumer demanding the lowest price possible. Then all these 3rd world options appear on the market.
I severely curtailed the amount of gun work I do for people because I'm tired of troubleshooting everyone's problems when they didn't do what I told them to the first time.
Example:
Colt introduced the Expanse line of rifles. It failed. Then, they adulterated the supply chain with these expanse parts that don't have proper identifying Colt markings. We will be dealing with the aftermath of that shit until the end of time. I get weekly emails about it.
I already know about all of that and I won't be buying any of them because I don't have time to chase around mechanical, electrical, and dimensional problems.
That is a different problem and that always existed and always will.
Alternative options is what makes capitalism work. If not, you have limited choices, and the companies who are the choice aren't pushed to innovate and when Production costs go down and the r&d has all been paid for, they never drop the price because they have it locked in. That is not capitalism and that is also a different problem.
You don't have to buy any of that stuff, but you mentioned dials are the way to go like Aimpoint was the only one who made them. They don't. Like others have mentioned, many who own them are not having any problems that you are mentioning whatsoever. The funny thing is, as more and more people move to alternate choices, you will eventually get to buy your over inflated price Aimpoints for cheaper. When that happens you can thank us later.
Longtime Aimpoint T2 fan/user... just bought my first Trijicon MRO and I really like it. I doubt I'll spend $780 for another new T2 again. The wider field of view is the winning point as it seems to allow me to acquire targets faster at close distances.
Longtime Aimpoint T2 fan/user... just bought my first Trijicon MRO and I really like it. I doubt I'll spend $780 for another new T2 again. The wider field of view is the winning point as it seems to allow me to acquire targets faster at close distances.
MROs are nice.
Still waiting on a review of the Trijicon MRO HD. Aimpoint pricepoint, so better be that much better than the standard MRO, which I like.
Still waiting on a review of the Trijicon MRO HD. Aimpoint pricepoint, so better be that much better than the standard MRO, which I like.
So I might be in the market in the next few months, but what do you like in the HD that the standard MRO doesn't have?
So I might be in the market in the next few months, but what do you like in the HD that the standard MRO doesn't have?
From what I have seen it is mainly the Reticle. It has the 2MOA dot and the option to switch to an EOTECH style circle with dot.
From what I have seen it is mainly the Reticle. It has the 2MOA dot and the option to switch to an EOTECH style circle with dot.
It is also supposed to be optimized for use with a new 3X magnifier that Trijicon is releasing along with the MRO HD, designed specifically for the MRO HD. This new magnifier is smaller and lighter and designed to work well with the new recticles in the HD model. It is, however, quite expensive.
I picked up two Vortex Crossfire Micros to test them. Beat the hell out of one in a few shoots last year and it held zero and did not fall of my rail. It’s as rugged as my magpul BUIS maybe more so. They are around $100 and come with the high Lower 1/3 mount which I have been using since my military days. They come with threadlocker. Torque it on, laser zero, hit the range, rock it around, and check rezero. It sits on a Colt and it’s fast. Glass is better than my Comp M3. I’m more of a Eotech fan, prefer the holosight versus red dot but it’s fast being as lightweight as it is.
I have a Romeo 5 on my 9MM AR-SBR. Its been fine, but it's just a range toy.
Everything else has Aimpoint.
+1
As RHINOWSO stated, Aimpoint (or Trijicon) for your personal self/home defense rifle and almost any of the other popular brands for range toys.
I have three MROs, and have been very pleased with their performance. Recently I purchased a couple of Sig Romeo 4Ts for a pair of new rifles. They were on sale within the price range of a normal MRO, and well below the regular price of a 4T. My impressions so far are all favorable. They appear to be of very high quality, built like "tanks" and with a factory mount that compares well to the Geissele mount for the MROs. Very heavy duty. The 4Ts also have a solar panel which extends their battery life to "100,00" hours (claimed). The glass is very clear and they have a choice of four recticles, including the classic red dot, and also the red "circle of death" a la Eotech. I have to say I have been impressed with the Sig Romeo 4Ts. Granted, they are the top of the line in the Romeo lineup, and it shows. They are high quality sights and I have no problem relying on them. I am a fan.
I have the Sig Romeo 4DR and so far have been impressed as well. Great glass, the reticle (I have it set on the Eotech style) is super sharp & bright, and so far it has held zero on top of an AK-47.
This was my first venture outside of US-made (or Swedish) red-dots. If I am being totally honest though....while this Romeo has performed fantastically so far....I still will never trust it as much as its Western counterparts. Just the way it is. And thus why its regulated to my "range toy" AKM I built last year just for fun.
https://i.imgur.com/jPhfi7R.jpg?1
I have and have used many Holosun red dots and the Sig branded Romeo5 Holosun. Never a problem with any of them. For home defense they are more than adequate. If I were in the military I would choose a T1. Aside from that, a fool and his money....
For proof of Holosun pistol red dots https://youtu.be/JuOyq90oa-Q
Aimpoints are probably (arguably) the best quality, but if on a budget one has to consider the intended use for the rifle. I have owned Aimpoints, Holosun, DI Optical, Vortex, and a few others that were ok. The best (as far a durability) were the Aimpoint, DI Optical (South Korean Military) and Holosun's. We allowed several LEO's to try their Vortex RDS to qualify in our patrol-rifle courses but none of them (six or 7) were able to complete the course, so we excluded them from our acceptable RDS's for duty. If you wonder why the price difference, it will probably come down to where they are produced, labor and components quality.
P.S We tested several of the Vortex rifle scopes (not RDS's) and they make some really nice scopes, just a little too fragile with their "RDS's.
I was curious which DI Optical sights you've experienced. Any thoughts good or bad? I was considering a DCL30 for either my AR or AUG.
Gunnar da Wolf
04-08-20, 12:41
I have an H-1 on my HD rifle, a Romeo 5 on my range/3 Gun rifle, and two Romeo 4DRs. The Romeos all have a clearer dot to my astigmatism than the Aimpoint, the Holosun I put on a Glock is clearest yet. The Romeo 5 is on its original battery after 3 years, the first 4DR is on its first battery after a year. The second 4DR has spent 6 months on an AR pistol that serves as a travel/truck gun (probably shaken awoke more than #1) and its on its first battery.
I’d suggest shooting irons until PSA does one of their 10 magazines and a Romeo 5 deal. Run the Romeo 5 until he decides to save up for an Aimpoint or LPVO. He’s a young man, he needs to find his own shooting style.
I was curious which DI Optical sights you've experienced. Any thoughts good or bad? I was considering a DCL30 for either my AR or AUG.
I am curious as well. Tim with Military Arms Channel speaks very highly of these sights. In fact I believe he keeps a DI Optical sight on one of his go-to rifles. Apparently they are made in South Korea not China.
I am curious as well. Tim with Military Arms Channel speaks very highly of these sights. In fact I believe he keeps a DI Optical sight on one of his go-to rifles. Apparently they are made in South Korea not China.
Be advised, DI has some sights that look almost identical, but one is South Korean mil spec, while the other is the civilian version. One pair would be the DCL30 and the EG1, while the other is the DCL23 and the FC1. DCL series are their military versions.
+1
As RHINOWSO stated, Aimpoint (or Trijicon) for your personal self/home defense rifle and almost any of the other popular brands for range toys.
Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.
Mysteryman
04-08-20, 22:41
You certainly have the right to feel that way. Hopefully not while typing on a MacBook, iPad or iPhone (all made in China) and wearing sneakers made in China. Got to stick with the program Ralph.
Eliminating Chinese goods from your life is a tough task. I do it where I can, and no I don't wear Chinese footwear, I wear US made Danner(Berry compliant) or European brands like AKU, Lowa, Meindl etc. How often do you seek quality goods made in deomocratic allied nations, or are you like most, and solely driven by having quantities of cheap crap vs limited amounts of quality products?
There is another bigger picture way to look at this, which, for some reason, always gets missed by people with your point of view. Regardless of where it is made, a T1/2 or SF shouldn't cost what it does....period...and the reason it remains this way are caused by the same people.
Why shouldn't they cost what they do? Capitalism is about finding the happy medium between maximum profit and a loss in sales. Aimpoint invented the red dot, perfected it and has been the longest and most widely deployed red dot sight in the world. The rest are simply knock offs trying to imitate them. If Aimpoint wasn't offering quality products their prices would be much lower, but they aren't. Do you expect us to believe that Holosun and Vortex are more advanced AND willing to cut their own margins for the benefit of the consumer? The Chinese brands sell for less because they know they're offering an inferior product. For most all they see is cheaper and they're sold. The lower price isn't to persuade the purveyor cheap crap to buy Holosun or Vortex. The lower price is there to try and persuade the Aimpoint types and departments(yes LE departments) that they can get the same product(or close to) for a lot less money. The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less. The silly features like "shake awake" are nothing but window dressing disguised as "innovation". More an answer to a question no one asked(well maybe Eotech with their pathetic battery life).
If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But don't pretend like you're getting the same quality for less from a Chinese knock off.
I wasn't trying to start a debate here and don't want to continue one if that's what is happening. I was only trying to respond to the OP question. Both the Aimpoint and Trijicon are great optics but if someone can't afford those there are some other less expensive options (Vortex, Sig, Holosun) ignoring where they are made or where their parts are made. No where on the box does the Sig Romeo say that it was made in China. Instead it says assembled in Oregon, USA. But it had to be made somewhere. Earlier models were made in China. I have read that they are now using parts from Japan, but actually I don't know.
Fifteen years ago I worked for a company that moved one of its' manufacturing plants to China. I wasn't happy about it then and nothing has changed. As for optics, I did buy American. I have three Trijicon products. As for disingenuous, per your own comments, which optics are truly made in America and have no non-American parts?
Not the Aimpoint.
Assembled in Oregon means it is likely comprised of foreign parts, see Chinese.
Everyone can afford an Aimpoint or Trijicon. The problem is people(those in Western nations) have a desire to consume, to buy shit and own more shit that can't be fulfilled. It's about priorities. Rather than "building another AR" why not take a hard look at priorities and decide if a quality optic is more important than building another rifle you really don't need. I bet there isn't hardly a forum member on M4C that doesn't have 2 or more AR's and likely only shoots one of them. I also bet there are very few on M4C that have 2 identical rifles out of redundancy. Likely most have several rifles of varying barrel lengths, styles, etc for no other reason than to have MORE.
The word budget can be broken down into two factors. Time, and quantity. If you saved $10 a week for a year you would have $520 in your "budget" for whatever it was you were saving for. If that isn't enough money you have two choices. Save more per week, or save for more weeks. Time or quantity. The price of a quality optic is not outrageous, it simply requires one to be more disciplined and save more or wait longer. In addition to those two factors one should have a hard look at PRIORITIES in their life and decide what is important. Is buying a case of beer every Friday more important than saving for that optic? Do you need to have 200 channels on TV? Is another pistol/optic/rifle the priority?
What this boils down to is most firearms owners, and I would say most people in general, simply want too much shit. They want everything and they want it now and they don't want to pay for it. Coupled with the hobbyist mentality it's a dangerous combination in many areas, guns being one. When I read about people complaining about the price of quality optics, or guns, or training. All I have to do is look at their previous posts(or current) and the truth is plain as day. They simply haven't adjusted their priorities or simply don't want to. Complaining about the price of quality goods is their excuse for not taking responsibility for their irresponsibility.
Like I mentioned in a previous post, sure, they are maximizing their profit and that is capitalism, but on the flip side, so is losing business to cheaper options if you are charging the customer too much and relying on the "I don't buy Chinese crap" crowd to do it. Labor and R&D does not justify a +$700 price on a 13 year old design. Spotty QC is the fault of the manufacturer who sets the QC rules and enforces them. Companies like PA, Holosun, Vortex,etc, have set the QC standards higher and enforce them pretty effectively.
What I choose is to pay a fair price for a quality product. I will not blindly brand buy no matter where it is made. That actually stifles innovation and in the end will hurt the company you are supporting because they will ride that false "wave of support" until that wave diminishes and due to capitalism it always does.
The only lost business will be to people who are only seeking the cheapest price possible. The design has evolved, I doubt Aimpoint has been sitting on their hands and not refining their technology. Even if they were, does that mean Holosun and Vortex red dots incorporate some amazing new laser or diode technology?! I strongly doubt it. I'm all for paying a fair price for a quality product, but the price is half predicated on the product being quality.
You may not blindly brand buy, but you sound like the type who blindly price buys. Cheap gets your attention. Ethics, quality materials, design, technology, performance history seem to take a distant second place.
No, the problem is the ignorant or cheap consumer demanding the lowest price possible. Then all these 3rd world options appear on the market.
I severely curtailed the amount of gun work I do for people because I'm tired of troubleshooting everyone's problems when they didn't do what I told them to the first time.
Example:
Colt introduced the Expanse line of rifles. It failed. Then, they adulterated the supply chain with these expanse parts that don't have proper identifying Colt markings. We will be dealing with the aftermath of that shit until the end of time. I get weekly emails about it.
I already know about all of that and I won't be buying any of them because I don't have time to chase around mechanical, electrical, and dimensional problems.
Well said sir!:cool:
That is a different problem and that always existed and always will.
Alternative options is what makes capitalism work. If not, you have limited choices, and the companies who are the choice aren't pushed to innovate and when Production costs go down and the r&d has all been paid for, they never drop the price because they have it locked in. That is not capitalism and that is also a different problem.
You don't have to buy any of that stuff, but you mentioned dials are the way to go like Aimpoint was the only one who made them. They don't. Like others have mentioned, many who own them are not having any problems that you are mentioning whatsoever. The funny thing is, as more and more people move to alternate choices, you will eventually get to buy your over inflated price Aimpoints for cheaper. When that happens you can thank us later.
The red dot market is pretty stale. The reality is it doesn't need to evolve. The current offerings work and work well(Aimpoint and Trijicon that is). A longer battery life, or smaller or lighter form factor are about the only directions to go. Silly features like "shake awake" are late night infomercial garbage. Solar would be nice but isn't necessary.
You mention others not having problems with their knock offs. Great, neither are those with the trusted brands. The difference is that the trusted brands have a long standing reputation for being reliable(not invicible). The knock offs have a reputation for "their optics are cheap, and so far have been holding up". The fact that people feel the need to champion their knock offs for "holding up" should tell you that even they(the owner) are surprised the product still works. So who's really the fool?
I have and have used many Holosun red dots and the Sig branded Romeo5 Holosun. Never a problem with any of them. For home defense they are more than adequate. If I were in the military I would choose a T1. Aside from that, a fool and his money....
For proof of Holosun pistol red dots https://youtu.be/JuOyq90oa-Q
To be honest, for home defense iron sights and a white light are more than adequate. A red dot is a nice to have, in the case of cheap red dots on an HD gun, "a fool and his money..."
Vortex are made mostly overseas but the company is run in USA. Like Primary Arms: Americans paying taxes.
I prefer made in USA: Eotech, Trijicon, Leuopold, some Vortex, Burris and handful of others.
But what we really need to be aware of is who owns the companies? If it’s owned by an international conglomerate type entity they are not going to put US workers interest to heart.
Many US companies don’t put our workers interests at heart. Sad but true. But they do pay taxes, at least I hope they do..because I know I pay taxes and they should too.
So the argument focus needs to be shifted to who owns the company and do they invest in USA?
I agree US made optics are better. I agree that Vortex and Primary Arms are having fantastic Chinese made optics that can be relied upon for defense for 1/4 to 1/8 the price of a Swedish optic. I have had conversations with the owners of Vortex, Primary, and Larue. They are like me (American Patriots) except talented and successful.. Not nearly as handsome but no ones perfect..
Vortex is working to do more US made optics and yes $500-1000 optic with a lifetime warranty is not that steep by today’s standards or at least pre Corona standards. But buy what you want, what you can afford. Just know a $99 optic may or may not catastrophically fail when you need it most. Be aware of that, and also be aware that iron sights may be needed when your Aimpoint fails also.
And don’t forget that if we allow these mega corps and conglomerates to buy all of our arms manufacturers, we are placing national security at risk. Period.
Adrenaline_6
04-09-20, 09:00
Why shouldn't they cost what they do? Capitalism is about finding the happy medium between maximum profit and a loss in sales. Aimpoint invented the red dot, perfected it and has been the longest and most widely deployed red dot sight in the world. The rest are simply knock offs trying to imitate them. If Aimpoint wasn't offering quality products their prices would be much lower, but they aren't. Do you expect us to believe that Holosun and Vortex are more advanced AND willing to cut their own margins for the benefit of the consumer? The Chinese brands sell for less because they know they're offering an inferior product. For most all they see is cheaper and they're sold. The lower price isn't to persuade the purveyor cheap crap to buy Holosun or Vortex. The lower price is there to try and persuade the Aimpoint types and departments(yes LE departments) that they can get the same product(or close to) for a lot less money. The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less. The silly features like "shake awake" are nothing but window dressing disguised as "innovation". More an answer to a question no one asked(well maybe Eotech with their pathetic battery life)."
If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But don't pretend like you're getting the same quality for less from a Chinese knock off.
I already mentioned what capitalism is and agree with you on that part, but I also mentioned that it is a double edged sword that will come back and bite you in the ass if you try and charge the customer too much.
Most of the rest of your logic in that statement is flawed beyond measure. Just because Aimpoint makes a quality product, and I never said they didn't, nobody did, it doesn't mean their prices aren't too high, margins excessive, and they can't charge less. Like many products that enter a market after a well known product has dominated it, those companies, as a strategy, have to offer something superior and revolutionary OR offer something competitive, cut their margins and offer price incentive to get there foothold or it doesn't happen. That's just business.
Not getting the same quality for less is also a false statement. So a Colt isn't the same quality (durability and performance wise) as other AR's that cost more? Shake awake is a tweak that helps "add" to battery life - and it isn't that new in the grand scheme of things, just not applied to the red dot until recently.
I never said we were getting the same quality as an Aimpoint, but that it has got to the point where it is for the most point negligible and that the juice was not worth the squeeze anymore.
The only lost business will be to people who are only seeking the cheapest price possible. The design has evolved, I doubt Aimpoint has been sitting on their hands and not refining their technology. Even if they were, does that mean Holosun and Vortex red dots incorporate some amazing new laser or diode technology?! I strongly doubt it. I'm all for paying a fair price for a quality product, but the price is half predicated on the product being quality.
You may not blindly brand buy, but you sound like the type who blindly price buys. Cheap gets your attention. Ethics, quality materials, design, technology, performance history seem to take a distant second place.
The red dot market is pretty stale. The reality is it doesn't need to evolve. The current offerings work and work well(Aimpoint and Trijicon that is). A longer battery life, or smaller or lighter form factor are about the only directions to go. Silly features like "shake awake" are late night infomercial garbage. Solar would be nice but isn't necessary.
You mention others not having problems with their knock offs. Great, neither are those with the trusted brands. The difference is that the trusted brands have a long standing reputation for being reliable(not invicible). The knock offs have a reputation for "their optics are cheap, and so far have been holding up". The fact that people feel the need to champion their knock offs for "holding up" should tell you that even they(the owner) are surprised the product still works. So who's really the fool?
The design has barely evolved dude - come on. They just released the T2, which is barely an improvement over a T1, which is in itself 13 years old. No one said any of the brands were releasing amazing new technology. No one. Just incremental tweaks and improvements.
"The product doesn't need to evolve" is what killed the US auto manufacturers too. At one time Japanese cars were crap, then S Korean cars were also crap. Look at them now. Burying the US - quality wise. Relying on reputation, laying on your haunches, charging significantly more for absolutely nothing, and relying on blind fan boy support for sales while other manufacturers equal and eventually surpass you gets your business in a world of hurt quick. That is Capitalism.
Most logical people here are for the same thing. Fair price for a quality product. You seem to ignore the fair price part. That is subjective. If it is fair to you then pay the +$700 for a T2 and rock on. I, and many others don't think so. Respect that opinion like we do yours. No one said you were stupid for buying an Aimpoint. If you somehow feel that it is being implied, then that is your own conscience speaking to you, not us.
Your last statement is also flawed logic. So if both products are not really having problems, one has a long standing reputation and the other one doesn't, they differ only in opinion and reputation, performance and durability are in the real world negligible. You mentioned above yourself that you are all for paying a fair price for a quality product. Isn't that what that is then?
I would have no problem buying an Aimpoint nowadays, just not for what they are currently charging. For the most part, it is a rugged aluminum tube, an led, and optical quality glass. They are charging almost what a modern cell phone costs which has a significant processor, RAM memory, multiple lens megapixel cameras - front and back, a Quad HD AMOLED screen, and an OS that gets updated on a regular basis. There is no way it is worth near what they are charging.
Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.
You must have peed in someones post toasties at Aimpoint because I've had excellent warranty service from them. I had a rifle that was BURNED UP IN A FIRE with an Aimpoint on it. The Aimpoint was literally scrap. I sent it to them, not really expecting anything. I got a call asking about what happened to it and I explained the situation honestly. Guy says, "We have quite a few used, LEO units we took on trade right now, be ok if I sent you one as an exchange?" ...Uh, YEA!
Now, I do know they won't service DRMO units etc....I did run into that issue with an Aimpoint I bought at a gunshow and tried to send back for an issue.
Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.
I bought two Vortex Crossfire red dots for range guns that my boys use. I had one of the guns leaning up against the wall with the stock on a concrete floor. Rifle slid and landed hard on the concrete floor and knocked the battery knob off the side of the optic in one clean piece. Optic was obviously dead right there. Vortex replaced it in prompt fashion but I hope that my Aimpoints would handle that scenario differently. Again, they're for range toys and bought because they were inexpensive but I'm not sure how robust they are...
Vortex are made mostly overseas but the company is run in USA. Like Primary Arms: Americans paying taxes.
I prefer made in USA: Eotech, Trijicon, Leuopold, some Vortex, Burris and handful of others.
But what we really need to be aware of is who owns the companies? If it’s owned by an international conglomerate type entity they are not going to put US workers interest to heart.
Many US companies don’t put our workers interests at heart. Sad but true. But they do pay taxes, at least I hope they do..because I know I pay taxes and they should too.
So the argument focus needs to be shifted to who owns the company and do they invest in USA?
I agree US made optics are better. I agree that Vortex and Primary Arms are having fantastic Chinese made optics that can be relied upon for defense for 1/4 to 1/8 the price of a Swedish optic. I have had conversations with the owners of Vortex, Primary, and Larue. They are like me (American Patriots) except talented and successful.. Not nearly as handsome but no ones perfect..
Vortex is working to do more US made optics and yes $500-1000 optic with a lifetime warranty is not that steep by today’s standards or at least pre Corona standards. But buy what you want, what you can afford. Just know a $99 optic may or may not catastrophically fail when you need it most. Be aware of that, and also be aware that iron sights may be needed when your Aimpoint fails also.
And don’t forget that if we allow these mega corps and conglomerates to buy all of our arms manufacturers, we are placing national security at risk. Period.
I agree for the most part. Vortex seems to be a good American company by all accounts. Supporting them even with foreign optics is better than supporting a completely foreign owned business IMO.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Adrenaline_6
04-09-20, 12:59
I bought two Vortex Crossfire red dots for range guns that my boys use. I had one of the guns leaning up against the wall with the stock on a concrete floor. Rifle slid and landed hard on the concrete floor and knocked the battery knob off the side of the optic in one clean piece. Optic was obviously dead right there. Vortex replaced it in prompt fashion but I hope that my Aimpoints would handle that scenario differently. Again, they're for range toys and bought because they were inexpensive but I'm not sure how robust they are...
It didn't according to an old thread with similar scenario. Not a knock on an Aimpoint, because that's a tough ask and I wouldn't expect it to. This area is where there is allowed rotation and is thin and hollow for the most part.
https://www.amdtelemedicine.com/telemedicine-equipment/carts-systems.html
It didn't according to an old thread with similar scenario. Not a knock on an Aimpoint, because that's a tough ask and I wouldn't expect it to. This area is where there is allowed rotation and is thin and hollow for the most part.
https://www.amdtelemedicine.com/telemedicine-equipment/carts-systems.html
Well then it's a good thing that they all have fixed rear and FSB front iron sights! :cool:
Well then it's a good thing that they all have fixed rear and FSB front iron sights! :cool:
Up close, I've used just the tube itself as a "cave man" ghost ring....Not superbly accurate but you can get hits that way.
You must have peed in someones post toasties at Aimpoint because I've had excellent warranty service from them. I had a rifle that was BURNED UP IN A FIRE with an Aimpoint on it. The Aimpoint was literally scrap. I sent it to them, not really expecting anything. I got a call asking about what happened to it and I explained the situation honestly. Guy says, "We have quite a few used, LEO units we took on trade right now, be ok if I sent you one as an exchange?" ...Uh, YEA!
Now, I do know they won't service DRMO units etc....I did run into that issue with an Aimpoint I bought at a gunshow and tried to send back for an issue.
Once they stop making a model your screwed. Their warranty ends with the project. They could have offered a replacement with an existing product but they don’t. Or even a credit towards a new product. The positive is that they typically only break internally after years of use, usually electronic in nature. A company like Leuopold will make it right even years after production, same with Vortex. But this can change if they’re bought out by a conglomerate.
I bought two Vortex Crossfire red dots for range guns that my boys use. I had one of the guns leaning up against the wall with the stock on a concrete floor. Rifle slid and landed hard on the concrete floor and knocked the battery knob off the side of the optic in one clean piece. Optic was obviously dead right there. Vortex replaced it in prompt fashion but I hope that my Aimpoints would handle that scenario differently. Again, they're for range toys and bought because they were inexpensive but I'm not sure how robust they are...
That is a weak point on the Crossfire. I tossed my heavy carbine around and slammed it quite a bit, including multiple team member drills where our carbines collided including a number of drops and dumps and the dial is intact. However, no drops on concrete, and did not run it over with a vehicle.. I use BUIS and FSB on my carbines: have four setup the same just slightly different barrel lengths. My last shoot involved point shooting with the red dot turned off. I had a two inch group at 20ft. with the BUIS down. Most guys were shooting six inches, some more. One in particular who spends a huge amount of money on his kit was point shooting well over six inches which is a fail. I tend to shoot at the instructor level with sights. So in the event you do destruct your Crossfire, you can point shoot or “tube” the threat and get the job done very fast. Inside of thirty feet I’m point shooting center mass in a real or training scenario.
I don’t know who would run over an Aimpoint or slam it into concrete being an $700-800 unit but I would guess it will also be subject to failure, hopefully it is in fact significantly more robust being six or seven times the money.
Mysteryman
04-09-20, 16:31
I already mentioned what capitalism is and agree with you on that part, but I also mentioned that it is a double edged sword that will come back and bite you in the ass if you try and charge the customer too much.
Most of the rest of your logic in that statement is flawed beyond measure. Just because Aimpoint makes a quality product, and I never said they didn't, nobody did, it doesn't mean their prices aren't too high, margins excessive, and they can't charge less. Like many products that enter a market after a well known product has dominated it, those companies, as a strategy, have to offer something superior and revolutionary OR offer something competitive, cut their margins and offer price incentive to get there foothold or it doesn't happen. That's just business.
Apparently you're not up to speed on what capitalism is. Why would a company lower their prices if they are still making strong sales??
A price reduction is only necessary when sales drop off. In the case of Aimpoint, I have heard that they cannot sell their optics for less than they charged the US gov for them. Regardless, it's a dumb move to cut your own margins for no necessary reason.
Not getting the same quality for less is also a false statement. So a Colt isn't the same quality (durability and performance wise) as other AR's that cost more? Shake awake is a tweak that helps "add" to battery life - and it isn't that new in the grand scheme of things, just not applied to the red dot until recently.
Not even the same comparison.
I never said we were getting the same quality as an Aimpoint, but that it has got to the point where it is for the most point negligible and that the juice was not worth the squeeze anymore.
Here's your quote "What I choose is to pay a fair price for a quality product." The definition of quality is what many seem to lack. There's no
doubt Aimpoint is the benchmark for red dot sights. So if your knock off brand can't meet or beat the performance it simply isn't quality. Accepting an inferior performing product is not paying a fair price for a quality product. It is simply being cheap and greedy and wanting everything without sacrificing for anything.
The other half of your statement revolves around "fair price" that my friend is what is determined on an individual consumer level. Some people think the cost of a Ferrari is fair for the product they get. Others think the price is insane.
The knock off products like Holosun and Vortex are simply cheap in price(and quality). Which makes it easy for people to justify the cost, especially when it has the "amazing warranty" which you will likely need. The other reality is that the vast vast majority of firearms owners are simply plinkers and not shooters.
It's estimated that less than 1% of firearms owners ever seek professional training. That means 99% are dabblers, plinkers, dirt shooters. The type of folks who won't run their gear hard or ever see serious round counts. It is this demographic where cheap knock off products excel in sales.
The design has barely evolved dude - come on. They just released the T2, which is barely an improvement over a T1, which is in itself 13 years old. No one said any of the brands were releasing amazing new technology. No one. Just incremental tweaks and improvements.
"The product doesn't need to evolve" is what killed the US auto manufacturers too. At one time Japanese cars were crap, then S Korean cars were also crap. Look at them now. Burying the US - quality wise. Relying on reputation, laying on your haunches, charging significantly more for absolutely nothing, and relying on blind fan boy support for sales while other manufacturers equal and eventually surpass you gets your business in a world of hurt quick. That is Capitalism.
Has the wheel evolved?? No. It's still round. The materials have changed, as have the processes for manufacture but the wheel is a wheel. Shit doesn't need to evolve to stay relevant or viable. Are we still using red dot sights? YES. Has any other manufacture made leaps and bounds changes or improvements to the red dot on the base level? NO. The "tweaks" are gimmicks and provide nothing substantial.
Your automotive example is flawed. Domestic brands let the quality slip, and are now outpaced by foreign brands. It had nothing to do with Toyota, Honda(which are made in North America), etc inventing or discovering some new wonder method of manufacturing. You're absolutely right in that the big 3 rested on their reputation and what I call blind patriotism of it's consumers coupled with outsourcing(south American production) while not reducing prices to meet the quality they were offering. Only a fool blindly continues to buy a product that has consistently dropped in quality and performance. That simply isn't the case with regards to Aimpoint.
Most logical people here are for the same thing. Fair price for a quality product. You seem to ignore the fair price part. That is subjective. If it is fair to you then pay the +$700 for a T2 and rock on. I, and many others don't think so. Respect that opinion like we do yours. No one said you were stupid for buying an Aimpoint. If you somehow feel that it is being implied, then that is your own conscience speaking to you, not us.
Correct, a fair price for a quality product. Paying first world wages for first world tech and materials means I pay higher prices for a product.
That product has a solid reputation and is built in an allied democratic nation. The others are none of the above.
Your last statement is also flawed logic. So if both products are not really having problems, one has a long standing reputation and the other one doesn't, they differ only in opinion and reputation, performance and durability are in the real world negligible. You mentioned above yourself that you are all for paying a fair price for a quality product. Isn't that what that is then?
Context is important and was not included. The knock offs do not have decades of use in combat. The knock offs don't get abused like the known brands do. There's plenty of videos of Holosuns and Vortex optics shitting the bed in basic testing. On the surface it looks like the knock offs are excellent.
Only after looking at the use/abuse regimen and the track record do you see them for what they are. Cheap knock offs.
I would have no problem buying an Aimpoint nowadays, just not for what they are currently charging. For the most part, it is a rugged aluminum tube, an led, and optical quality glass. They are charging almost what a modern cell phone costs which has a significant processor, RAM memory, multiple lens megapixel cameras - front and back, a Quad HD AMOLED screen, and an OS that gets updated on a regular basis. There is no way it is worth near what they are charging.
you want to talk about over priced junk, electronics lead the way. Cell phones haven't evolved in years. More gimmicks without anymore useful performance or features. They are designed to fail to guarantee repeat sales. That isn't innovation, that's a business model. What's comical is that people have no problem spending $1000 on a cell phone which they will likely chase/replace with another in 2-4 years, but whine and piss and moan about $600 on an optic that will last decades.... Priorities, it's what people can't seem to figure out.
Here's the question I ask everyone who loves their cheap knock offs. If I offered you an Aimpoint or a Holosun for free, which would you take?
I thought so...
Me in orange
Adrenaline_6
04-09-20, 20:54
Mystery you still refuse to get it and I doubt you ever will. I know what capitalism is and I gave examples. At one time, the Japanese and Korean cars WERE crap, but they improved and then surpassed the US auto makers, AND for a cheaper price. You actually think that they are better because some factories are in the US? Come on dude, you can't be that out of touch with reality can you? We actually studied the Japanese factories on how to improve our production process. Get real.
You wrote, and I quote "The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less."..the Colt example proves your statement was just plain bs and you know it.
As far as evolving and your wheel example, also bs. Just because it is still the same shape doesn't mean it hasn't evolved. Try throwing on a set of bias plys on your car, better yet, how about a set of wagon wheels. See how that works for you. Those are tweaks and evolving a design, not gimmicks. Some ideas work great, some don't, but that is part of the evolutionary process.
There are also many videos of some pretty brutal torture tests of those knock offs and they do pretty well. Sure, there are still cheap junk out there, but not all are.
So you are saying the cell phone hasn't evolved...just gimmicks... lmao. Try comparing a camera shot from 2007, when the T1 was invented, to a modern one now. Absolute garbage. Even one 5 years ago would make it look silly. Try browsing the internet with that phone. Try downloading and watching a video with it....yea...good luck buddy.
The truth is I don't buy my cell phones, I get them updated every 2 years for free with my job. It's pretty nice, but the example is there is a lot more tech and cost that go into a cell phone than a red dot. Absolutely no question in that. They could easily design a cell phone that meets the same rugged standards as a T2 by removing the "gimmicky" cameras, the "gimmicky" high def screen, throw in a cheap circuit board and just have an led readout. Guess how much that cell phone would cost? Peanuts.
Sure, I would take an Aimpoint for free, but that isn't what is being discussed now is it? You would take a Ferrari/Porsche/"fill in with your dream car" for free over what you bought too, so your point is invalid. I would even pay more for an Aimpoint than a knockoff....just not what it costs now.
My company is a major reseller for Axis cameras. They also are made in Sweden. Awesome cameras. Great quality, great durability, support and reputation. If I could afford it as a business, that is what I would buy and that is what I spec into my designs. Guess what though, a lot of businesses by the cheaper ones. Some are absolute garbage, some give Axis a run for its money which is why they have restructured pricing and introduced new lineups. They are still number one though and rightfully so. I have to be honest though, the only reason I have them on my house, and it is their cheaper lineup, is because I get them at cost. If not, even as an SME in my profession, I would get an alternative, because the quality difference, if any, is negligible for the difference in cost.
I get it dude, you like Aimpoint and no one else. Like I sad b4, you do you, that's great, I back you 100% in doing so too, but don't justify your viewpoint with spin and bs statements. It's like going to an Occupy Democrat page.
Mysteryman
04-10-20, 04:10
Mystery you still refuse to get it and I doubt you ever will. I know what capitalism is and I gave examples. At one time, the Japanese and Korean cars WERE crap, but they improved and then surpassed the US auto makers, AND for a cheaper price. You actually think that they are better because some factories are in the US? Come on dude, you can't be that out of touch with reality can you? We actually studied the Japanese factories on how to improve our production process. Get real.
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I never said Japanese auto makers got the advantage by building them in North America. I merely pointed out the irony that Japanese cars are built in North America and North American branded cars are built in South America. Why would the big 3 move their production outside of North America? Cheaper labour, to increase margins at the cost of quality. Same business model as Vortex, Holosun, Leupold(yes they use Chinese components). All as an attempt to sucker the consumer into their lower priced optics under the belief that they are just as good.
You wrote, and I quote "The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less."..the Colt example proves your statement was just plain bs and you know it.
As far as evolving and your wheel example, also bs. Just because it is still the same shape doesn't mean it hasn't evolved. Try throwing on a set of bias plys on your car, better yet, how about a set of wagon wheels. See how that works for you. Those are tweaks and evolving a design, not gimmicks. Some ideas work great, some don't, but that is part of the evolutionary process.
And again, a comprehension fail. The Colt example you provide is not a fair comparison. A base 6920 is every bit as reliable as a tricked KAC, Noveske, Larue, etc. Window dressing on the boutique brands doesn't get you a more reliable product, it gets you creature comforts or role/mission specific add ons. The base product is the same. The same cannot be said for cheap knock off red dots compared to known brands. Your comparison is like debating an Aimpoint T1 to an H1. Same quality but different performance specs. Or compare a comp m3 to a PRO, again same quality, different specs.
There are also many videos of some pretty brutal torture tests of those knock offs and they do pretty well. Sure, there are still cheap junk out there, but not all are.
Great, some home brew torture tests. Where and how long has Holosun been serving? Vortex?
So you are saying the cell phone hasn't evolved...just gimmicks... lmao. Try comparing a camera shot from 2007, when the T1 was invented, to a modern one now. Absolute garbage. Even one 5 years ago would make it look silly. Try browsing the internet with that phone. Try downloading and watching a video with it....yea...good luck buddy.
Absolutely gimmicks. You don't need a 20 megapixel camera on your PHONE. In fact the lens quality makes more difference than the megapixel rating of the processor. You don't need a screen that goes from edge to edge. You don't need a phone that can run games, stream videos/TV.
Useless gimmicks. Maybe offer a phone that won't shatter the first time you drop it. Or a phone with a battery that lasts weeks not hours. Perhaps a phone that has a speaker that works, so we don't have to see people walking around on speaker phone talking to the ass end of their phone like the morons they are.
I use a phone I bought 2 years ago, and it was almost 2 years old when I bought it. Still makes calls, texts, and can check email. I can even look shit up online in a pinch. Imagine that..
The truth is I don't buy my cell phones, I get them updated every 2 years for free with my job. It's pretty nice, but the example is there is a lot more tech and cost that go into a cell phone than a red dot. Absolutely no question in that. They could easily design a cell phone that meets the same rugged standards as a T2 by removing the "gimmicky" cameras, the "gimmicky" high def screen, throw in a cheap circuit board and just have an led readout. Guess how much that cell phone would cost? Peanuts.
The tech in cell phones is far from new, they're simply compact personal computers that can make a phone call. I bet the big names have the next 3 or 4 generations already tested and ready for market. Apple pumps out another new lemon about every 9-15 months.
Sure, I would take an Aimpoint for free, but that isn't what is being discussed now is it? You would take a Ferrari/Porsche/"fill in with your dream car" for free over what you bought too, so your point is invalid. I would even pay more for an Aimpoint than a knockoff....just not what it costs now.
No, I wouldn't take a Ferrari for free. It's useless for what I need in a vehicle, it is incapable of doing the job.
My company is a major reseller for Axis cameras. They also are made in Sweden. Awesome cameras. Great quality, great durability, support and reputation. If I could afford it as a business, that is what I would buy and that is what I spec into my designs. Guess what though, a lot of businesses by the cheaper ones. Some are absolute garbage, some give Axis a run for its money which is why they have restructured pricing and introduced new lineups. They are still number one though and rightfully so. I have to be honest though, the only reason I have them on my house, and it is their cheaper lineup, is because I get them at cost. If not, even as an SME in my profession, I would get an alternative, because the quality difference, if any, is negligible for the difference in cost.
I get it dude, you like Aimpoint and no one else. Like I sad b4, you do you, that's great, I back you 100% in doing so too, but don't justify your viewpoint with spin and bs statements. It's like going to an Occupy Democrat page.
I agree, there is definitely a trade-off with some products where going with top of the line is simply costing you more and nothing else.
For a home security camera that's fine. For life saving equipment like an optic, firearm, a parachute, medical gear, hell even condoms. Skimping in these areas can have dire consequences. As I mentioned, most who own guns aren't shooters, most will never receive training, most will never run their gear hard, most will likely never shoot more a few thousand rounds in their life. For these people, a cheap optic fits the bill. Like you said, you do you, but don't try and convince the educated that cheap knock offs are "just as good as" because we both know they aren't.
I'm sure you read the part in my last post about people and their priorities. I suggest people read it again and be honest with themselves about what they currently see as a priority when they decide to piss and moan about the costs of quality goods.
In the Orange
Adrenaline_6
04-10-20, 07:31
Talk about reading comprehension...the auto maker example was given to point out that even though the Japanese and Korean automakers were cheap crap at one time, they eventually equaled then surpassed the US competition, and still do for the most part. At the time when they were already better quality wise they were also cheaper. So the theory of not getting a quality product by paying less is an absolute garbage statement. You keep side stepping it...for good reason I guess.
You ignore the cheap brands like Delton, PSA, etc whicch are also the same basic product as a Colt, just not as good quality wise. Sure they are also way cheaper and a lot less reliable, but that is the point I am trying to make. There are quality choices out there that are fine quality wise but you don't have to pay primo prices if you don't want to. Yes a KAC is overall a better rifle in many ways than a Colt, not many would argue against that. The point is that many feel the Colt is good enough for what they need and don't want to pay the extra money for a KAC, Larue, DD, Noveske. etc. Some do. I personally would love a KAC and would have bought one had it been in stock, but it wasn't and the deal on a DDM4V5 that I got was too good to pass up at the time. I did convince a friend to buy one and he did. From thhat standpoint I think the juice is worth the squeeze. By the time you change things out like (trigger, stock, add buis, etc) the KAC is well worth it and to get another brand to shoot as smooth takes more time and money.
In your response to the torture tests, I get your skepticism, but with that attitude, nothing new would ever be used. It's a catch 22 situation.
The cell phones and cameras are absolutely a necessity to stay relevant in the market. To say it is a gimmick is absolute denial. People don't want to have to carry an SLR with them to get great family pics on a vacation. It is now unnecessary to do so thanks to your claimed "gimmick". Lens quality does make a difference, that is also part of the cost that goes into the camera along with the megapixel sensor and processing. Like I mentioned, the phone manufacturers could easily make a cell phone that beats a T2 spec in toughness, take out the processing power, put in an led read out screen on it with a dial for brightness and with the battery tech now days, would run forever. They could do it and it wouldn't cost as much as a T2 either, it wouldn't even be close...on top of the fact that almost no one would buy it. This is my point that you keep missing. The Aimpoint is a good product, it just isn't worth what they are charging anymore and the die hard fan boys like you keep it that way.
Another side step...I never pigeon holed you into a Ferrari did I? I gave you choices...you chose to side step to avoid the reality of my truth.
On the cameras, I design commercial systems, not residential. Some companies depend on these designs for security, protecting their workplace, their employees, their products and research, etc. This can also make or break a company, yet they choose the cheaper option because it is "good enough" for what they are trying to accomplish.
For some reason your reading comprehension is not getting that I never, and I don't think anyone in this thread ever posted that the knock offs are just as good as an Aimpoint. They are not, but they will get there, just like the cheap Japanese and Korean cars did.
What I keep saying and let me lay it out simply so there is no misconceptions anymore:
1) Knock offs are not as good as an Aimpoint
2) Aimpoints are overpriced relative to the tech and materials going into it and the age of design
3) Some of the better knock offs are for the most part close enough to the same quality and durability of an Aimpoint for a lot less money
Mysteryman
04-11-20, 06:40
Talk about reading comprehension...the auto maker example was given to point out that even though the Japanese and Korean automakers were cheap crap at one time, they eventually equaled then surpassed the US competition, and still do for the most part. At the time when they were already better quality wise they were also cheaper. So the theory of not getting a quality product by paying less is an absolute garbage statement. You keep side stepping it...for good reason I guess.
I didn't side step anything. You made the ignorant assumption that my mentioning of Japanese branded vehicles being made in North America was what made them better. I mentioned their manufacturing location to illustrate the irony of where the Japanese brands are being built compared to the big 3 "American" brands. Quality can be built in most nations, it simply isn't what is desired when a company outsources. Outsourcing/offshoring your production is about cutting costs and maximizing margins. The big 3 had already stripped a lot of quality out of their vehicles when they were exclusively made in North America. Outsourcing simply increased their margins even further; At the cost of what little quality they had left.
Like you said, the Japanese brands(Sorry, Korean cars are garbage) were and are often still cheaper than the big 3 competing models. The sales for the big 3 come from the blind patriots who can't see the lack of quality over their burning desire to "buy American". These people live in the past and survive on bullshit tales from their elders about what brand is quality and what is not. Outdated biased data is the order of the day. However, we now see that import brands from all over the globe are quickly outpacing domestic brands, and for good reason.
You ignore the cheap brands like Delton, PSA, etc whicch are also the same basic product as a Colt, just not as good quality wise. Sure they are also way cheaper and a lot less reliable, but that is the point I am trying to make. There are quality choices out there that are fine quality wise but you don't have to pay primo prices if you don't want to. Yes a KAC is overall a better rifle in many ways than a Colt, not many would argue against that. The point is that many feel the Colt is good enough for what they need and don't want to pay the extra money for a KAC, Larue, DD, Noveske. etc. Some do. I personally would love a KAC and would have bought one had it been in stock, but it wasn't and the deal on a DDM4V5 that I got was too good to pass up at the time. I did convince a friend to buy one and he did. From thhat standpoint I think the juice is worth the squeeze. By the time you change things out like (trigger, stock, add buis, etc) the KAC is well worth it and to get another brand to shoot as smooth takes more time and money.
I ignore the cheap brands because they're cheap garbage. Hobby grade AR15 patterned rifles. They are mechanically the same product, they are however not even close when it comes to materials and craftsmanship. Exactly the same story for red dot knock offs. The Colt is the BASELINE not the top of the line. Yes, for the majority of AR users a stock 6920 will do the job. For the guy who wants to spend extra on a KAC I say go for it. You won't get an inferior gun, but you may not get a lot more than a 6920 for the price you pay. Here's the difference, if you buy a 6920 or a KAC you're getting grade "A" quality goods. You may be over paying for the KAC as it relates to performance, but you're still getting grade "A" goods. Once you've reached the baseline, the gains for going above(in cost) are incremental not monumental. Hence the Aimpoint PRO, and the H1 series. They're baseline red dot sights, but not the most feature rich/advanced options from Aimpoint. Just as reliable, just as well built, just baseline models.
By your own omission above you indicate that you bought a DD over a KAC because of price and price alone. Nothing wrong with a DD at all, excellent rifles. However you indicate that you really would like a KAC. So why not adjust your financial priorities and get the KAC? The answer is this. The DD was as you say a deal you could not pass up. And saving money over the KAC meant you could spend the difference on other shit you likely didn't/don't need. The lure of stretching your dollars to acquire more crap strikes again. Your justification for buying a KAC makes sense, provided you like the stock, BUIS, trigger and feel of how the rifle shoots. Those are all personal choices centered around their VALUE to you the consumer. However, none of the above items makes the gun any more durable or reliable than the DD you bought or the plain 6920. In fact none of the items listed makes the gun perform any better, except for the trigger.
And that is but 1 of several factors involved with precision.
In your response to the torture tests, I get your skepticism, but with that attitude, nothing new would ever be used. It's a catch 22 situation.
I hear you. One need only look at the alternatives and compare them to the tried and true. Is there a red dot on the market that meets or beats an Aimpoint in any area? NO. So why would I entertain even trying one if it is already inferior to what is known?
The cell phones and cameras are absolutely a necessity to stay relevant in the market. To say it is a gimmick is absolute denial. People don't want to have to carry an SLR with them to get great family pics on a vacation. It is now unnecessary to do so thanks to your claimed "gimmick". Lens quality does make a difference, that is also part of the cost that goes into the camera along with the megapixel sensor and processing. Like I mentioned, the phone manufacturers could easily make a cell phone that beats a T2 spec in toughness, take out the processing power, put in an led read out screen on it with a dial for brightness and with the battery tech now days, would run forever. They could do it and it wouldn't cost as much as a T2 either, it wouldn't even be close...on top of the fact that almost no one would buy it. This is my point that you keep missing. The Aimpoint is a good product, it just isn't worth what they are charging anymore and the die hard fan boys like you keep it that way.
Photos taken with a phone are far from amazing. They're basic level images that capture the event/scene and nothing more. Digital zoom is garbage compared to optical zoom. The push for "better" cameras is from the dumb public who feel the need to share every pathetic aspect of their lives on social media. The desire for the latest and greatest is the product of high pressure marketing strategies geared towards the same dumb public. You're absolutely right, the big brands could make rugged reliable long lasting phones. Unfortunately the masses have prioritized stupid shit like games, watching TV, photo filters, and 1 touch posting to social media as being more important/desirable than reliability, durability or battery life.
Aimpoint makes an excellent product. The price is what it is because people continue to feel that the value is there, simple economics. I'm no die hard fan boy of any brand. I am a die hard fan of shit that works. I love my ACOG's, excellent optics. I tried an MRO, couldn't get over the slight magnification so I sold it. I also had a Bushnell TRS25 on my rimfire gun. It isn't a life saving tool so there was no need to put an Aimpoint or Trijicon product on it. The TRS shit the bed a month into use. The one on the wife's gun died a few months later. Right, Chinese built garbage, but a "good old American company"...
Another side step...I never pigeon holed you into a Ferrari did I? I gave you choices...you chose to side step to avoid the reality of my truth.
No a comprehension fail. You assumed I left out the other brands to make my point. I left out the other brands because the example didn't require listing them all. Apparently for some it does. Let me be clear. I have no use for any sports car, high end exotic or domestic garbage. No, I would not take one for free as they are not capable of fulfilling my needs in a vehicle.
On the cameras, I design commercial systems, not residential. Some companies depend on these designs for security, protecting their workplace, their employees, their products and research, etc. This can also make or break a company, yet they choose the cheaper option because it is "good enough" for what they are trying to accomplish.
Right, the systems they select meet their minimum criteria for what they intend to use them for. I'm sure your clients have no illusion that the systems they chose are the "best" out there or that they are even equal to the top end systems.
For some reason your reading comprehension is not getting that I never, and I don't think anyone in this thread ever posted that the knock offs are just as good as an Aimpoint. They are not, but they will get there, just like the cheap Japanese and Korean cars did.
No they won't. They will never meet or beat the known brands until they put the same level of care and QC into their products. At that point they will be priced nearly the same and then it's all for not. I agree, that Aimpoint and other big brands can't sit idle either.
What I keep saying and let me lay it out simply so there is no misconceptions anymore:
1) Knock offs are not as good as an Aimpoint
2) Aimpoints are overpriced relative to the tech and materials going into it and the age of design
3) Some of the better knock offs are for the most part close enough to the same quality and durability of an Aimpoint for a lot less money
1. Correct
2. Nope they're not. Age is irrelevant as is the tech. It's the craftsmanship and material quality you're paying for.
3. Nope, there isn't a single knock off that comes close to the reliability, durability or battery life of an Aimpoint. Keeping in mind you need all three just to meet an Aimpoint, let alone beat one. Close enough means they are inferior by design, which means you're over paying no matter what the price(if we're comparing optics for the same intended role).
Orange again
Adrenaline_6
04-11-20, 21:12
Mystery, I will bow out of this because it has grown tiresome. You fail to understand what I write over and over...not sure why really.
You write I bought the DD because I wanted to save money over the KAC. That is not even close to what I wrote dude. How did you come up with that in that head of yours? The dream car example is another one, I left your choices wide open, yet you keep pigeon holing the choices to avoid the truth that you would take something more expensive than what you have for free. Anyone would. Your original point was garbage and you know it. Yet even when faced with that obvious truth you would rather fight tooth and nail on something that everyone else knows is a false statement, then admit you were wrong on it.
With that being said, I have come to the conclusion that this discussion is a waste of time when basic comprehension or manning up is lacking.
Rock on with your Aimpoints.
The real question is...when they come down in price to be more competitive because of competition...and they will...will you man up then or make another invalid excuse on why it happened?
CatBacker88
04-12-20, 08:12
Mystery, I will bow out of this because it has grown tiresome. You fail to understand what I write over and over...not sure why really.
You write I bought the DD because I wanted to save money over the KAC. That is not even close to what I wrote dude. How did you come up with that in that head of yours? The dream car example is another one, I left your choices wide open, yet you keep pigeon holing the choices to avoid the truth that you would take something more expensive than what you have for free. Anyone would. Your original point was garbage and you know it. Yet even when faced with that obvious truth you would rather fight tooth and nail on something that everyone else knows is a false statement, then admit you were wrong on it.
With that being said, I have come to the conclusion that this discussion is a waste of time when basic comprehension or manning up is lacking.
Rock on with your Aimpoints.
The real question is...when they come down in price to be more competitive because of competition...and they will...will you man up then or make another invalid excuse on why it happened?
Thank you. Sooner or later we all discover we have done nothing when we have bested a fool. Happy Easter!
I have an Aimpoint H1, T2 and M4s. I also have a Primary Arms Advanced Micro and a Sig Romeo 5.
Optical clarity and resistance to lens flare is superior on the Aimpoints. Optical clarity and lens flare resistance of the Romeo is superior to the PA. Some days, the dots of all sights look sharper than others. I'm satisfied with the battery life of all five red dot sights.
I would buy the Aimpoints again, giving preference to the T2 & M4s. I would also by another Romeo. I don't think I'd buy another PA Advanced Micro. It works well enough for a cheap RDS, but the Romeo comes with a mount and is a better value.
The RDS I like the most is the T2. It's light, it's fast, has good optical clarity, lens coatings work well, Scalar Works makes an awesome mount for it and the T2 accepts the Forward Control ATA caps which makes zeroing a breeze.
I think a solar panel is a feature with limited utility. It only works when the RDS is outside in the sunshine, not when stored inside the safe. Sights with a short battery life die in storage. I find the shake awake feature to be more useful. I have a Leupold LPV with a short battery life and shake awake. While the shake awake is useless in the field, as constant motion means constant on, it keeps the battery from dying while in storage.
One feature I'd like to see Aimpoint offer is a second dot for holdovers.
I got what I paid for when I bought my Aimpoints. When I paid the $750 or so for the T2, I got $750 worth of optics. When I paid the $150 or so for the Romeo, I got more than I expected, but not enough to convince me my Aimpoints were over priced.
Adrenaline_6
04-12-20, 18:38
Thank you. Sooner or later we all discover we have done nothing when we have bested a fool. Happy Easter!
Happy Easter my brother!
tanksoldier
04-13-20, 18:02
Just decided to add my $.02 to what has been apparently a lengthy and somewhat contentious thread...
I have an Aimpoint PRO, Vortex Strikefire II and a SIG Romeo on various personally-owned rifles.
I also was issued a Trijicon MRO on my department DD SBR.
Any of them are adequate for the range, gun games or stateside law enforcement patrol rifle use.
If I was going back to Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd take an Aimpoint.
Just decided to add my $.02 to what has been apparently a lengthy and somewhat contentious thread...
I have an Aimpoint PRO, Vortex Strikefire II and a SIG Romeo on various personally-owned rifles.
I also was issued a Trijicon MRO on my department DD SBR.
Any of them are adequate for the range, gun games or stateside law enforcement patrol rifle use.
If I was going back to Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd take an Aimpoint.
Well said....
Just decided to add my $.02 to what has been apparently a lengthy and somewhat contentious thread...
I have an Aimpoint PRO, Vortex Strikefire II and a SIG Romeo on various personally-owned rifles.
I also was issued a Trijicon MRO on my department DD SBR.
Any of them are adequate for the range, gun games or stateside law enforcement patrol rifle use.
If I was going back to Afghanistan or Iraq, I'd take an Aimpoint.
I have all of those also. Only thing I will add is that I really am not very happy with my MRO. The glass is a weird tint and it seems to have a bunch of parallax. It just seems like it should be better coming from trijicon.
I have all of those also. Only thing I will add is that I really am not very happy with my MRO. The glass is a weird tint and it seems to have a bunch of parallax. It just seems like it should be better coming from trijicon.
I hope that some of these complaints are addressed in the MRO HD. I do like mine.
With that said... The MRO HD price may emphasize the point that one earlier post was making about a certain level of quality will demand a certain level of cost, regardless of the company. The MRO HD is solidly in Aimpoint Micro range.
Can we all just agree now that COVID19 has killed ~25000 Americans to not buy "Made in China", at least for our weapons systems (and cell phones) ?
Was going to pick up a higher end Holosun. Nope. Not now. Switch to a country that isn't China, & I'm in.
tanksoldier
04-13-20, 23:03
Can we all just agree now that COVID19 has killed ~25000 Americans to not buy "Made in China", at least for our weapons systems (and cell phones) ?
Was going to pick up a higher end Holosun. Nope. Not now. Switch to a country that isn't China, & I'm in.
Like the computer you're typing that on, the network you're sending it over... etc, etc. No matter what brand of electronics you buy, chances are at least some portion of it was made in China. Virtually all high-end servers, storage, memory cards... all made in the same six factories in China, no matter who's name is on the outside. Same with almost anything you buy: some part was made in China. Globalization is the modern reality.
...and blaming China is overly simplistic. While they might not have handled things the best, much of the COVID-19 reaction is over-reaction, or perhaps the reaction we SHOULD be having to every flu season. 61,000 Americans died of the flu in 2017-2018. What country's products should we stop buying for that?
Just like the Obama Presidency, there were and are plenty of things to be upset with them, and him, about.... but blaming them, and him, for stupid stuff that isn't really their, or his, fault just weakens your other arguments and makes you look reactionary.
Adrenaline_6
04-14-20, 11:45
Can we all just agree now that COVID19 has killed ~25000 Americans to not buy "Made in China", at least for our weapons systems (and cell phones) ?
Was going to pick up a higher end Holosun. Nope. Not now. Switch to a country that isn't China, & I'm in.
Good luck with that. Apple users are one of the most hard core fan base there is. I also don't mind supporting an American company making stuff in China and setting their own QC like Primary Arms and Vortex, etc. If they decide to change their manufacturing country and still make a good product, I will still support them.
Good luck with that. Apple users are one of the most hard core fan base there is.
Real question, what phones are not made in China?
Adrenaline_6
04-14-20, 12:06
Samsung, Nokia, HTC, and the good old Blackberry. No parts made in China...now that's a whole different story.
Good luck with that. Apple users are one of the most hard core fan base there is.
Idk..
Have you met Colt fans? 😉
3ACR_Scout
04-14-20, 22:13
I'm not sure I have much to contribute to this discussion, but it's interesting for me because I'm a longtime Aimpoint user who just decided to try out my first Holosun red dot. I've used M68s for a long time in the Army, but I actually bought my first (and only) T-1 while on a deployment in 2012, shortly after they released the 2 MOA model, I think. I was issued an M4A1 without an optic, so I ordered the T-1 from Joe Strohman and got a great deal through his LE / military sales program. When I got home, that became my HD optic until I bought a T-2 last summer when Manventure Outpost was blowing them out for $534. The price was so low that I wasn't sure if it was a legitimate vendor, but I read some good reviews about them and ordered it. The dial on my T-2 is significantly more difficult to turn than my T-1, but I'm guessing it will loosen up over time. The T-2 has become my primary optic on my HD rifle, and the T-1 has moved to a backup rifle.
I believe in paying for top quality gear, but I have a limited budget and can't afford to buy multiple copies of expensive optics. I'm not sure when - or if - I'll be able to afford a high-quality LPVO. Having bought both of my Aimpoints new at around the $500 range, it's hard to imagine paying $750-$800 for one, even if they are excellent red dots. I'd love to see the street price of the T-2 come down to the $500-$600 range in recognition of the competition that's consistently catching up in terms of quality and durability. Regardless, I'm completely confident in them based on the experiences of a bunch of people that have put them through much more in the real world than I have, and I don't feel any need to count on anything else as far as red dots go.
Having said that, I decided to order a Holosun HS403R a couple days ago because it's very close to my Aimpoints in terms of operation and seems like a natural transition. I'm very interested in seeing how it compares in terms of clarity, and I wanted to have an extra optic that I could kick around a little. OpticsPlanet had them on sale over the weekend, so combined with a 10% off coupon, it was $145 shipped (ordered Saturday, shipped today, which is faster than some previous experiences with them). That's a significant price difference from even the deeply discounted prices I paid for my Aimpoints, so I'm definitely interested to see how it performs and holds up. It will go on what another forum refers to as the "bro gun" - a reliable loaner rifle for a friend in need. It's also my loaner for training purposes, when shooting with friends, so it should get a moderate level of abuse. I suspect it will work out well, but I don't see myself relying on any red dot other than my Aimpoints at home or if I take one overseas again.
EDIT: I meant to address the "made in the USA" vs. "made in China" discussion. In my line of work, China is a potential adversary, and a growing one, but economically first, and militarily second. The current crisis has helped spotlight that, both in terms of our dependency on China for many products, and their information campaign to shape the narrative in all things related to their country. They are pursuing a deliberate strategy to improve the quality of their products as part of their Made in China 2025 plan, which calls for their industries to produce everything that they need domestically and to move them into the position of being the top global manufacturer of high-tech products. I expect we will continue to see the quality of products, like these optics, improve because their government has directed it. They do not want to be known for "Chinese junk," and they are putting the motivation and capital behind it. In the process, however, they are also driving up the average wages of Chinese workers, so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain the price advantages they currently have. I suspect that they will, as they are improving their manufacturer processes, but they are also surpassing countries like Mexico in terms of workers' wages, so we may see some production shift to other locations. I doubt it will for things like optics, because those are the types of manufactured products that fit into their plan. That was a bit more long-winded than I intended, but all of this makes me conscious of the fact that, although I'm buying a product from a U.S. company, I'm also supporting, in a small way, the Chinese Communist Party's long-term strategy to overtake the United States as a global power.
I'm not sure I have much to contribute to this discussion, but it's interesting for me because I'm a longtime Aimpoint user who just decided to try out my first Holosun red dot. I've used M68s for a long time in the Army, but I actually bought my first (and only) T-1 while on a deployment in 2012, shortly after they released the 2 MOA model, I think. I was issued an M4A1 without an optic, so I ordered the T-1 from Joe Strohman and got a great deal through his LE / military sales program. When I got home, that became my HD optic until I bought a T-2 last summer when Manventure Outpost was blowing them out for $534. The price was so low that I wasn't sure if it was a legitimate vendor, but I read some good reviews about them and ordered it. The dial on my T-2 is significantly more difficult to turn than my T-1, but I'm guessing it will loosen up over time. The T-2 has become my primary optic on my HD rifle, and the T-1 has moved to a backup rifle.
I believe it paying for top quality gear, but I have a limited budget and can't afford to buy multiple copies of expensive optics. I'm not sure when - or if - I'll be able to afford a high-quality LPVO. Having bought both of my Aimpoints new at around the $500 range, it's hard to imagine paying $750-$800 for one, even if they are excellent red dots. I'd love to see the street price of the T-2 come down to the $500-$600 range in recognition of the competition that's consistently catching up in terms of quality and durability. Regardless, I'm completely confident in them based on the experiences of a bunch of people that have put them through much more in the real world than I have, and I don't feel any need to count on anything else as far as red dots go.
Having said that, I decided to order a Holosun HS403R a couple days ago because it's very close to my Aimpoints in terms of operation and seems like a natural transition. I'm very interested in seeing how it compares in terms of clarity, and I wanted to have an extra optic that I could kick around a little. OpticsPlanet had them on sale over the weekend, so combined with a 10% off coupon, it was $145 shipped (ordered Saturday, shipped today, which is faster than some previous experiences with them). That's a significant price difference from even the deeply discounted prices I paid for my Aimpoints, so I'm definitely interested to see how it performs and holds up. It will go on what another forum refers to as the "bro gun" - a reliable loaner rifle for a friend in need. It's also my loaner for training purposes, when shooting with friends, so it should get a moderate level of abuse. I suspect it will work out well, but I don't see myself relying on any red dot other than my Aimpoints at home or if I take one overseas again.
EDIT: I meant to address the "made in the USA" vs. "made in China" discussion. In my line of work, China is a potential adversary, and a growing one, but economically first, and militarily second. The current crisis has helped spotlight that, both in terms of our dependency on China for many products, and their information campaign to shape the narrative in all things related to their country. They are pursuing a deliberate strategy to improve the quality of their products as part of their Made in China 2025 plan, which calls for their industries to produce everything that they need domestically and to move them into the position of being the top global manufacturer of high-tech products. I expect we will continue to see the quality of products, like these optics, improve because their government has directed it. They do not want to be known for "Chinese junk," and they are putting the motivation and capital behind it. In the process, however, they are also driving up the average wages of Chinese workers, so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain the price advantages they currently have. I suspect that they will, as they are improving their manufacturer processes, but they are also surpassing countries like Mexico in terms of workers' wages, so we may see some production shift to other locations. I doubt it will for things like optics, because those are the types of manufactured products that fit into their plan. That was a bit more long-winded than I intended, but all of this makes me conscious of the fact that, although I'm buying a product from a U.S. company, I'm also supporting, in a small way, the Chinese Communist Party's long-term strategy to overtake the United States as a global power.
Very helpful post, thanks for this ^
ChattanoogaPhil
04-15-20, 06:56
He wants an Aimpoint because i have one but is it really that much better than a $140.00 Romeo 5?
Depends on the value one places on decades of battle proven performance.
I have a variety of RDS, from the old Japanese made Tasco, Burris, Aimpoint, Trijicon and others. Depending on the host firearm, battle proven performance might be meaningless or an important criteria.
Renegade0100
04-15-20, 12:58
If a used Aimpoint Pro/M68 is out of your budget, Holosun is the next best bet. Having used a few previously, they're solid but not as solid as an Aimpoint. One of my Holosuns had to be returned/replaced because it never turned on; another had to be replaced because the threads in the sight-base for mounting stripped. That being said, Holosun's warranty is excellent. If you get a Holosun and it has problems, it will be immediately noticeable. The majority work; assuming you have one that works, Holosun seems to be every bit as durable and reliable as any Aimpoint. Now, I don't think a Holosun would survive being thrown from a heli like a T2 did, but for practical use (training, competition, most duty use) I think Holosun is adequate. For me, Holosuns serve the role of a placeholder optic, or a red dot on a gun you don't care much for.
My main gripe with them, and the reason I run a T2 on my BCM and a Pro on my Colt, is indirectly supporting the CCP. Like a few other posters above, China as a nation state is awful and is the economically superior geopolitical equivalent of the Soviets. Like most, I would prefer to have domestic/allied manufacturing.
My main gripe with them, and the reason I run a T2 on my BCM and a Pro on my Colt, is indirectly supporting the CCP. Like a few other posters above, China as a nation state is awful and is the economically superior geopolitical equivalent of the Soviets. Like most, I would prefer to have domestic/allied manufacturing.
I understand. I have some Primary Arms Enhanced and I really like them, I do love my PRO but I have MRO's on my go to guns, because they are awesome and American made. The biggest gripe is that I always end up with mud and dirt on my lens after a class with the MRO, might have to invest in the Patrol Model.
I just bought an MRO HD to compare to the Holosun 512C. Looking through them here are my take-aways:
I took a picture of each with the donut-of-death reticle at comparable brightness settings. The pictures don't fully capture the differences but hopefully enough to give the general idea.
Trijicon:
61858
Holosun:
61859
Image quality/brightness - Trijicon by a small margin. The Trijicon seems a bit brighter. Maybe the Holosun has a coating that slightly dims it. It's a very slight difference, however. They are both very clear. Also, comparing the MRO HD to the old MRO, I don't see the same tint that I used to, but that's another post...
Dot sharpness - Holosun. By a large enough margin. At least to me the dot is noticeably rounder than the Holosun, which sunbursts for me.
Overall sight picture - Depends. Both are acceptable. The trijicon is slightly brighter but the Holosun dot is a bit crisper.
Mount - Trijicon. By a huge margin. You can use any mount while the Holosun comes with one built-in and it's not very confidence inspiring.
Controls - Trijicon. Not even a competition. I never liked push-button controls on optics and the Holosun's are not the easiest to find without looking, especially with gloves.
Battery life - Holosun. While the Trijicon lasts 2.5 years at the level 3 setting, using the DOD drops it down to 75 days. Holosun claims 50k hours WITH the DOD. I've owned it for 6 months and have left it on at the current setting (roughly the same brightness as the Trijicon) and the battery is still going. I don't know if it can really run 50k hours, but from what I have read online from people using their pistol red dots, it's reasonable to assume its close enough. Even so, I'm pretty sure everyone changes their battery yearly just in case. That being said, if you prefer the DOD, you are out of luck with the Trijicon. To me, this is pretty important as I prefer the DOD but would not use it on the Trijicon because of the short battery life.
Gimmicks - Holosun. The shake awake and solar features are useless. You can, as I have, disable them both. The Trijicon has the off position between the 2 and 3 brightness settings of both the dot and DOD reticle, which is nice, but like most I just don't turn it off.
Durability - I'm not rich and can't afford a side-by-side comparison to the death but I did subject a Holosun to a few durability tests. I didn't drop it out of a helicopter or anything crazy, but I did leave it at the bottom of a pool for a day and dropped it from shoulder height onto grass, gravel and concrete and it held zero and functioned properly. For my use the Holosun would be adequate, but extra durability never hurt anybody. I'm not or have been in the military or law enforcement and my daily job is a at a desk, so take that for what it's worth.
I'm leaving price and value out of this one. This is not the item to save a buck on. Whether that makes a difference to you is a personal financial decision.
Country of manufacture - Trijicon. Obviously.
Which do I prefer? Having both in my hands at the same time, it's hard to make the call. Better reticle and battery life or better mount/controls/reliability? If The Trijicon had better battery life, it would win hands-down, even with the slightly fuzzy dot. I guess I'm going to have to compromise and say the Trijicon using the standard dot. It's not the same dot as the original MRO. The HD's dot is crisper and the image is clearer with much less of a tint. Plus the push-button controls on the Holosun are a pain and useless in most circumstances.
Anyways, those are my personal thoughts and observations. Thanks for reading!
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UPDATE - I wrote the above on Saturday and posted it today and forgot to add this: Mac from Military Arms Channel uploaded a YouTube video and explained the DOD "artifact" phenomenon. When you have the Trijicon displaying only the dot you can see remnants of the circle under certain conditions. Mostly in an overcast situation. I could not get a picture of it, but it is definitely there and DEFINITELY annoying.
I experienced it consistently outdoors and even in my living room with the shades open and the sun directly overhead (not shining through the windows). I found it slightly disorientating and hard to filter out the dot from the circle artifact. Maybe one could get used to is, but it's like a smudge on the glass that you cannot clean off. Annoying, to say the least.
I don't know if Trijicon is aware of this, but I am hesitant to believe its acceptable to them. This throws the whole comparison out the window because I see this is a flaw. I would not be surprised is there is a recall or a gen2 in the future.
Five_Point_Five_Six
04-20-20, 15:05
Great post.
I'm not sure I have much to contribute to this discussion, but it's interesting for me because I'm a longtime Aimpoint user who just decided to try out my first Holosun red dot. I've used M68s for a long time in the Army, but I actually bought my first (and only) T-1 while on a deployment in 2012, shortly after they released the 2 MOA model, I think. I was issued an M4A1 without an optic, so I ordered the T-1 from Joe Strohman and got a great deal through his LE / military sales program. When I got home, that became my HD optic until I bought a T-2 last summer when Manventure Outpost was blowing them out for $534. The price was so low that I wasn't sure if it was a legitimate vendor, but I read some good reviews about them and ordered it. The dial on my T-2 is significantly more difficult to turn than my T-1, but I'm guessing it will loosen up over time. The T-2 has become my primary optic on my HD rifle, and the T-1 has moved to a backup rifle.
I believe it paying for top quality gear, but I have a limited budget and can't afford to buy multiple copies of expensive optics. I'm not sure when - or if - I'll be able to afford a high-quality LPVO. Having bought both of my Aimpoints new at around the $500 range, it's hard to imagine paying $750-$800 for one, even if they are excellent red dots. I'd love to see the street price of the T-2 come down to the $500-$600 range in recognition of the competition that's consistently catching up in terms of quality and durability. Regardless, I'm completely confident in them based on the experiences of a bunch of people that have put them through much more in the real world than I have, and I don't feel any need to count on anything else as far as red dots go.
Having said that, I decided to order a Holosun HS403R a couple days ago because it's very close to my Aimpoints in terms of operation and seems like a natural transition. I'm very interested in seeing how it compares in terms of clarity, and I wanted to have an extra optic that I could kick around a little. OpticsPlanet had them on sale over the weekend, so combined with a 10% off coupon, it was $145 shipped (ordered Saturday, shipped today, which is faster than some previous experiences with them). That's a significant price difference from even the deeply discounted prices I paid for my Aimpoints, so I'm definitely interested to see how it performs and holds up. It will go on what another forum refers to as the "bro gun" - a reliable loaner rifle for a friend in need. It's also my loaner for training purposes, when shooting with friends, so it should get a moderate level of abuse. I suspect it will work out well, but I don't see myself relying on any red dot other than my Aimpoints at home or if I take one overseas again.
EDIT: I meant to address the "made in the USA" vs. "made in China" discussion. In my line of work, China is a potential adversary, and a growing one, but economically first, and militarily second. The current crisis has helped spotlight that, both in terms of our dependency on China for many products, and their information campaign to shape the narrative in all things related to their country. They are pursuing a deliberate strategy to improve the quality of their products as part of their Made in China 2025 plan, which calls for their industries to produce everything that they need domestically and to move them into the position of being the top global manufacturer of high-tech products. I expect we will continue to see the quality of products, like these optics, improve because their government has directed it. They do not want to be known for "Chinese junk," and they are putting the motivation and capital behind it. In the process, however, they are also driving up the average wages of Chinese workers, so it will be interesting to see if they can maintain the price advantages they currently have. I suspect that they will, as they are improving their manufacturer processes, but they are also surpassing countries like Mexico in terms of workers' wages, so we may see some production shift to other locations. I doubt it will for things like optics, because those are the types of manufactured products that fit into their plan. That was a bit more long-winded than I intended, but all of this makes me conscious of the fact that, although I'm buying a product from a U.S. company, I'm also supporting, in a small way, the Chinese Communist Party's long-term strategy to overtake the United States as a global power.
Mysteryman
04-20-20, 16:58
Mystery, I will bow out of this because it has grown tiresome. You fail to understand what I write over and over...not sure why really.
You write I bought the DD because I wanted to save money over the KAC. That is not even close to what I wrote dude. How did you come up with that in that head of yours? The dream car example is another one, I left your choices wide open, yet you keep pigeon holing the choices to avoid the truth that you would take something more expensive than what you have for free. Anyone would. Your original point was garbage and you know it. Yet even when faced with that obvious truth you would rather fight tooth and nail on something that everyone else knows is a false statement, then admit you were wrong on it.
With that being said, I have come to the conclusion that this discussion is a waste of time when basic comprehension or manning up is lacking.
Rock on with your Aimpoints.
The real question is...when they come down in price to be more competitive because of competition...and they will...will you man up then or make another invalid excuse on why it happened?
Late reply but better late than never.
You admitted the DD was a smokin deal so you bought it vs saving up for the KAC. Here's what you said "I personally would love a KAC and would have bought one had it been in stock, but it wasn't and the deal on a DDM4V5 that I got was too good to pass up at the time." You rationalized the value of the DD (at the price you paid) as being worth equal or more than what you paid. You also rationalized that the KAC did not offer enough advantage/value for the dollar to warrant passing on the DD. No doubt either will serve you well. The comparison between the two is not one of quality, but one of features so it's not a fair comparison.
Again I will say this about the "dream car" I have no need nor desire for any sports car at any price. I'm all about practical tools, not useless toys. The confusion likely comes from people interjecting their own context to the example. So let me try it again. If you needed a vehicle to haul you and your gear to the range and the family around town, would a Ferrari/Lamborghini/Porsche/etc be a sound choice, or would a more common SUV or pickup(even a wagon) do the job? I'm not talking about getting your free sports car then selling it for something more practical, which is where the minds of poor people usually end up when they try and justify their decision to take the "higher priced" item. The question is simple. You need a vehicle to haul you and your gear to the range and the family around town. The question is rhetorical for those that got it. Same story for the optics. If you were afforded one optic to do the job, to bank your life on and were offered a Holosun or an Aimpoint, which would you choose? If you believe in your knock off products your answer should be Holosun. If your answer is Aimpoint then you're a hypocrite.
When Aimpoints come down in price it will be good for the consumer. No doubt there's a premium on their products because of the quality and because they're still in demand. That premium is called PROFIT. When demand drops, the price will follow. I have no problem paying market value for one now as the sight has an unmatched reputation and is built by an allied nation not an economic enemy and shit hole communist state.
I have 4 aimpoints, 3 bought pre-owned, all of which I have been running now for 4-5 years with zero issues whatsoever. I am a fan of buy once, cry once. Aimpoint gets my vote personally.
I've been a die hard Aimpoint/ACOG fan for a long time. I'm a firm believer in the "buy once, cry once" train of though. I ran a little 1.5X ACOG on MY AR for a good number of years and have recently decided to move to a red dot to open up the possibility of using a magnifier. Old eyes getting older. My knee jerk was to look at the T2 and the MRO. The T2 costs what it costs. Aimpoints have always been expensive. The MRO, on the other hand, is cheap/inexpensive by comparison. I was gonna grab the MRO, but sure enough, that artifact thing is definitely there. That is something that would drive me crazy.
Of course, I wound up checking out the competition and ran across the Romeo4T. I didn't even know that such an animal existed at that price point that wasn't made by Aimpoint or Trijicon. The 4T is a step above the other Romeos/Holosuns. 7075 instead of 6061. Comes with a rock solid co-witness mount, some very nice flip open transparent covers, a kill flash, is very well designed and feels robust. I bit and bought one. I just got it in today and threw it on my 10.5 build. In a month I'll either be singing its praises or warning people off of them. Honestly, the lifetime warranty also gives a bit of peace of mind.
I started my undergraduate in international studies after I served a few enlistments. I had worked in international relations and geopolitics. I grew up as a kid seeing a number of manufacturers sold out and moved overseas: my mother managed shipping and receiving for a plant that moved to Asia. Sadly, at this point Friedman’s Globalism is a way of life for all of us. We are all codependent on one another to a greater or lesser extent. Trumps mirror tariffs is a much needed change for a long time coming. I lived in Asia for a time and I understand what its like to try to buy American: they are hit with big tax and customs fees. Everything has components sourced overseas. I try to support American labor and now Leopold,Trijicon, and a few others are the last made in US. Theres good optics made the world over. Price is in fact reflective of quality and obviously combat proven manufacturers have a distinct edge. Supporting a company like Vortex with Chinese made optics at a competitive price is fine in my book because its a US company and it benefits US. The very nature of Capitalism dictates that we must engage in competitive trade with global sources. Our corporate investors sold out in the 1980s and sadly many Americans have not come to accept it. Not that I personally agree with the race to the bottom, but it is what it is. I believe we have reached a time where we can make the best products in the world in the US and do so at a reasonable price given the quality. It seems the love affair with cheaply made, and absolutely horrible quality Chinese products has runs its course. China will need to step it up, or we can just keep on sourcing our materials from China now that the playing field is a bit more level. One thing we can count on is China never allowing the field to be level and resorting to subversive means to gain an advantage: like discouraging US imports. But honestly find a good US company like Vortex or Leopold and go with it. To me Aimpoint is not an option. I have nothing against the Swedish, I have Swedish family, but Sanberg is not a US company. Someday the conglomerates will likely make this concept as antiquated as the idea of buying from US companies is now to products made exclusively in the US.
I've been a die hard Aimpoint/ACOG fan for a long time. I'm a firm believer in the "buy once, cry once" train of though. I ran a little 1.5X ACOG on MY AR for a good number of years and have recently decided to move to a red dot to open up the possibility of using a magnifier. Old eyes getting older. My knee jerk was to look at the T2 and the MRO. The T2 costs what it costs. Aimpoints have always been expensive. The MRO, on the other hand, is cheap/inexpensive by comparison. I was gonna grab the MRO, but sure enough, that artifact thing is definitely there. That is something that would drive me crazy.
Of course, I wound up checking out the competition and ran across the Romeo4T. I didn't even know that such an animal existed at that price point that wasn't made by Aimpoint or Trijicon. The 4T is a step above the other Romeos/Holosuns. 7075 instead of 6061. Comes with a rock solid co-witness mount, some very nice flip open transparent covers, a kill flash, is very well designed and feels robust. I bit and bought one. I just got it in today and threw it on my 10.5 build. In a month I'll either be singing its praises or warning people off of them. Honestly, the lifetime warranty also gives a bit of peace of mind.
I had been using MROs exclusively for my red dot rifles, and currently have three of them. I like them a lot, they have held up well with no issues for me, and I shoot well using them. Recently I too discovered the Romeo 4T red dot. I was very impressed. The 4T is very ruggedly built, including the mount that comes with it. It appears to be as well built as my MROs, and the mount appears to be at least the equal of the Geissele, which is what I use with all the MROs. What I really liked about the 4T was its reticle, with four options that were user selectable. Whichever reticle you choose, it is razor sharp. I bought two of them, currently running one on a 10" 516 SBR and the other on a 11.5" Centurion Arms SBR. Also, the 4T is at least "assembled in the USA", whatever that means. It really is a very nice red dot sight.
I had been using MROs exclusively for my red dot rifles, and currently have three of them. I like them a lot, they have held up well with no issues for me, and I shoot well using them. Recently I too discovered the Romeo 4T red dot. I was very impressed. The 4T is very ruggedly built, including the mount that comes with it. It appears to be as well built as my MROs, and the mount appears to be at least the equal of the Geissele, which is what I use with all the MROs. What I really liked about the 4T was its reticle, with four options that were user selectable. Whichever reticle you choose, it is razor sharp. I bought two of them, currently running one on a 10" 516 SBR and the other on a 11.5" Centurion Arms SBR. Also, the 4T is at least "assembled in the USA", whatever that means. It really is a very nice red dot sight.
I got it in and mounted it last night and took it out today. You're right. The dot is clean. I was spoiled by the reticle of my TA44, but the T4 is nice. I ran about 300 rounds with it today. I really like it. That circle/dot reticle is super fast. At this point, I'm not regretting my decision.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-01-20, 17:34
I've been running a 4T for almost 2 years now. It's really nice, I also have an Aimpoint. The Romeo 4T comes with a mount similar to the Geissele, I actually replaced it with a Larue LT660 mount.
It's sitting on top of my "go to" rifle. It says it's made in Japan underneath the mount "not China" and it's assembled in the USA. Japan makes some really great optics.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200501/5348a54451038f3b766d4cb9e0b9b44a.jpg
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I've been running a 4T for almost 2 years now. It's really nice, I also have an Aimpoint. The Romeo 4T comes with a mount similar to the Geissele, I actually replaced it with a Larue LT660 mount.
It's sitting on top of my "go to" rifle. It says it's made in Japan underneath the mount "not China" and it's assembled in the USA. Japan makes some really great optics.
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Oh, wow. It makes me want to pull the mount on mine to see if it says Japan or China. Japan has put out some fine glass indeed.
I'm glad to hear that you're liking the 4T. I was afraid I was going to regret my decision to go with it, instead of an Aimpoint or Trijicon.
Is that 660 a lower 1/3 mount? I have an MI mount on order. I like my optics up a bit higher. So I don't have to bend my neck so much and they play nicer with my hearing protection.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-01-20, 18:21
Oh, wow. It makes me want to pull the mount on mine to see if it says Japan or China. Japan has put out some fine glass indeed.
I'm glad to hear that you're liking the 4T. I was afraid I was going to regret my decision to go with it, instead of an Aimpoint or Trijicon.
Is that 660 a lower 1/3 mount? I have an MI mount on order. I like my optics up a bit higher. So I don't have to bend my neck so much and they play nicer with my hearing protection.It's a 1.93 mount so it's actually even higher than a standard lower 1/3
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It's a 1.93 mount so it's actually even higher than a standard lower 1/3
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Thanks. I thought it looked tall. Can you get a cheek weld with that or is it more of a chin weld?
So you guys with Sig Romeo 4T’s: anyone here have that specific model let them down?
MikhailBarracuda91
05-01-20, 19:58
Thanks. I thought it looked tall. Can you get a cheek weld with that or is it more of a chin weld?It's really not much taller than a standard 1.57" lower 1/3. We're talking .36 of an inch difference.
A cheek weld is very natural feeling. I'd say probably less than optimal if your shooting for precision in the prone position, but honestly I'd really have to be comparing rifles or something to notice.
The 1.93" mount is my choice for a red dot set-up, I feel like the more heads up position is better for quick target acquisition.
My brother runs a compM4 with the lower 1/3 on his rifle, even though the window is larger in that optic I feel it's easier to snap onto targets with my rifle. I could have a bias towards my rifle so take for what it's worth.
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MikhailBarracuda91
05-01-20, 20:07
So you guys with Sig Romeo 4T’s: anyone here have that specific model let them down?I'm still on the original battery, the thing just works. It holds zero no matter what the temperature change is too. I mostly shoot steel at 300 yards with it.
The glass is not as clear as an Aimpoint though, it has an ever so slightly blue hue to it (looks like it's done on purpose). But the dot is every bit as crisp. I can't notice the blue unless I'm looking through an Aimpoint and then I look right through the 4T (still more clear than MRO)
The Romeo 4M is a lot cheaper and accepted by the FBI. Also made in Japan/USA
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It's really not much taller than a standard 1.57" lower 1/3. We're talking .36 of an inch difference.
A cheek weld is very natural feeling. I'd say probably less than optimal if your shooting for precision in the prone position, but honestly I'd really have to be comparing rifles or something to notice.
The 1.93" mount is my choice for a red dot set-up, I feel like the more heads up position is better for quick target acquisition.
My brother runs a compM4 with the lower 1/3 on his rifle, even though the window is larger in that optic I feel it's easier to snap onto targets with my rifle. I could have a bias towards my rifle so take for what it's worth.
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Hmmm, I may just cancel my order for the MI mount and check out that higher mount.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-01-20, 21:31
Hmmm, I may just cancel my order for the MI mount and check out that higher mount.I've heard really good stuff about MI mounts. If you decide to buy a Larue mount checkout the used market. It's considerably cheaper most times. I've seen the LT660 like half off on this site
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I've heard really good stuff about MI mounts. If you decide to buy a Larue mount checkout the used market. It's considerably cheaper most times. I've seen the LT660 like half off on this site
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Thanks,
I'm gonna look into it. Who knows, I've always run absolute co witness, but recently did a mock up of what a high mount would be like using risers and I really liked it, hence my questions to you. Just to make sure that I wasn't thinking something stupid.
I opted for the Geissele 1.93 mount. I like that you can bolt it to the receiver. I've had bad experiences with ADM and Larue with optics falling off.
So you guys with Sig Romeo 4T’s: anyone here have that specific model let them down?
Haven't had mine long enough to give them much of a work out, so sorry, not enough time yet to answer your question.
Spiff_P239
05-02-20, 15:02
I've settled on the Aimpoint Pro for my rifle. Initially, I wasn't a fan of how big/heavy the optic was, but after briefly trying a T-2, I like the larger window and the added brightness of the dot on the Aimpoint Pro.
I've settled on the Aimpoint Pro for my rifle. Initially, I wasn't a fan of how big/heavy the optic was, but after briefly trying a T-2, I like the larger window and the added brightness of the dot on the Aimpoint Pro.
My two haven't let me down in years. They are probably the best in their price point class.
I opted for the Geissele 1.93 mount. I like that you can bolt it to the receiver. I've had bad experiences with ADM and Larue with optics falling off.
That sucks, may I ask which mounts you were using? And how they fell off? I have an old CompM3 in larues cantlever quick disconnect mount ive had on a bcm for 10 years, thousands of rounds been thrown around and the mounts never come loose or fallen off.
I do have the gieselle super precision on another rifle with the CompM5 and it is a great mount as well very secure.
The_War_Wagon
05-02-20, 19:23
Trijicon MRO hands down. Durable as can be and you can’t beat the price. I bought my last one for $338 new. PA has some great deals on them from
Time to time. Other option would be a used T-1. You should be able to get a second hand one on the EE for around $500
With the introduction of the Comp M5 and T-2, the bottom is falling out of used T-1 and Comp M-4 pricing. I've seen both go for $400, and sometimes less than $500 with mounts! GREAT deals, if you can pinch together enough pennies to get one!
T-1s are garbage when magnified though. And have shown to have really bad parallax.
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How’s the parallax on the Romeo 4t? Also, still hoping to hear from someone thats used one enough to comment on durabilty/reliability.
I've had bad experiences with ADM and Larue with optics falling off.
I hear stories like that and wonder if you actually knew how to use them.
I hear stories like that and wonder if you actually knew how to use them.
Yeah I have to agree. I’ve seen the factory QRP mount fall off more than one rifle, but I’ve seen reports of that elsewhere too. Never with any other mount though so it makes me wonder.
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I hear stories like that and wonder if you actually knew how to use them.
Most likely when someone says a larue mount has fallen off, they did not install it correctly. I have a few larue mounts and they never come off. Even when a few times i carelessly knocked the optic off a wall or post.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-03-20, 12:06
My Larue mount has always performed as advertised. Even though there's more modern choices, I would purchase another one in a heartbeat.
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Negligent discharge. Delete.
How’s the parallax on the Romeo 4t? Also, still hoping to hear from someone thats used one enough to comment on durabilty/reliability.
Ok, I bought one. Parallax seems to be very low, putting a rifle in a vice and moving my eye around. As in, I can’t detect any parallax. Surely there is some, but I’m hoping its too little to matter. Hopefully I’ll get to actually shoot it in the next few days. Until then, I’m gonna chuck it in the bed of my truck and see how that goes.
Dot is crisp and round, with and without a magnifier.
LT 660 puts it slightly above lower 1/3. In the area of ~1.75” above top of rail for optic center.
Edit: It says assembled in USA, designed in Oregon, whatever that means.
Edit: It says assembled in USA, designed in Oregon, whatever that means.
Americans put together the final Chinese parts in Oregon. ;)
That sucks, may I ask which mounts you were using? And how they fell off? I have an old CompM3 in larues cantlever quick disconnect mount ive had on a bcm for 10 years, thousands of rounds been thrown around and the mounts never come loose or fallen off.
I do have the gieselle super precision on another rifle with the CompM5 and it is a great mount as well very secure.
I used to run TA44 ACOGs and Aimpoint T1s. When I got my first T1, I put it into a Larue mount. Out in the woods with the rifle strapped to the rack of my four wheeler doing what I do on a four wheeler. Got back to the camp and the T1 was gone. I had it adjust pretty tight too. Not so tight as the eat the rail of the upper, but tight enough that you had to pry the lever. Apparently, the lock came undone and the lever got levered.
After that, I went to ADM. Maybe a few years ago, this time we had just gotten to our shooting spot, I was just shooting and the ACOG on top of my rifle literally just fell off. I picked it up, inspected the mount and all looked as it should have. I clamped it back on the rifle and kept on shooting with no issues. I mean, the Larue and the ADM are fine mounts, but I guess I'm just the guy that this sort of stuff happens to. No more QD for me.
Americans put together the final Chinese parts in Oregon. ;)
I believe someone posted earlier in this thread that the 4T has "Japan" on the bottom of it.
Ok, I bought one. Parallax seems to be very low, putting a rifle in a vice and moving my eye around. As in, I can’t detect any parallax. Surely there is some, but I’m hoping its too little to matter. Hopefully I’ll get to actually shoot it in the next few days. Until then, I’m gonna chuck it in the bed of my truck and see how that goes.
Dot is crisp and round, with and without a magnifier.
LT 660 puts it slightly above lower 1/3. In the area of ~1.75” above top of rail for optic center.
Edit: It says assembled in USA, designed in Oregon, whatever that means.
Same here. I did the same thing. Put the gun in fixture and looked through it. I can't see any parallax errors. I have a good number of rounds through my pistol since getting the T4 and I like it. Hitting clay pigeons and golf balls at 100 yards isn't a problem. The dot is crisp. I can't speak of longevity. Haven't had it long enough.
Americans put together the final Chinese parts in Oregon. ;)
Probably. Although, I think someone said they were made in Japan.
I used to run TA44 ACOGs and Aimpoint T1s. When I got my first T1, I put it into a Larue mount. Out in the woods with the rifle strapped to the rack of my four wheeler doing what I do on a four wheeler. Got back to the camp and the T1 was gone. I had it adjust pretty tight too. Not so tight as the eat the rail of the upper, but tight enough that you had to pry the lever. Apparently, the lock came undone and the lever got levered.
After that, I went to ADM. Maybe a few years ago, this time we had just gotten to our shooting spot, I was just shooting and the ACOG on top of my rifle literally just fell off. I picked it up, inspected the mount and all looked as it should have. I clamped it back on the rifle and kept on shooting with no issues. I mean, the Larue and the ADM are fine mounts, but I guess I'm just the guy that this sort of stuff happens to. No more QD for me.
While it somewhat defeats the purpose of QD, you can always tie down your optics with 550, and the Larue mounts have holes to make the mount non-qd
Probably. Although, I think someone said they were made in Japan.
While it somewhat defeats the purpose of QD, you can always tie down your optics with 550, and the Larue mounts have holes to make the mount non-qd
I did some research on the T4 also. It appears that it isn't a Chicom optic. It also isn't just a rebranded Holosun. I have to find that article and post a link. Holosun does not make Sig optics for Sig. Sig took over the factories making Holosun and Holosun products are still being made in those factories, from what I understood.
I already have a Geissele 1.93 mount coming in. Should be here today. I don't have any need to be able to QD my red dot. If I have a need for back ups, I'll just look through the rds. If I can't look though it, I always have a leatherman on me.
This is what I was able to dig up....https://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/17/sofic-sig-electro-optics-romeo4t/....Still looking for the article that was based on an interview with a Sig rep.
I just had something go sideways on me. I was going to install the new mount on my T4 and when I removed the screws, a helicoil came out with one of them. I called customer support and told them what happened. He said no problem. He has them in stock and he took my mailing address and email. I also told him that I had a weekend of shooting planned and asked if the three screws were enough to hold the optic. He said, go ahead. If anything else fails because of that, I'm getting a new one anyway. I'm a bit ticked about having to send it in, but they acted quickly...so far.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-07-20, 16:34
I just had something go sideways on me. I was going to install the new mount on my T4 and when I removed the screws, a helicoil came out with one of them. I called customer support and told them what happened. He said no problem. He has them in stock and he took my mailing address and email. I also told him that I had a weekend of shooting planned and asked if the three screws were enough to hold the optic. He said, go ahead. If anything else fails because of that, I'm getting a new one anyway. I'm a bit ticked about having to send it in, but they acted quickly...so far.Literally the exact same thing happened to me with the supplied screws.
Thing is I only found out when I went to replace the stock mount with the Larue. So I was actually using 3 screws for about 5,000 rounds and never knew it. My zero was fine the whole time.
So I never sent my optic in. I'm fairly experienced with tools and metal work. I actually backed that sucker out in the garage without damaging the aluminum threads
Lesson learned, don't over torque cheap screws. And Larue screws are WAY better! You can feel it. Other than the screws, I'd say only the cheapish flip caps put this underneath an Aimpoint for quality.
But seriously I was pretty damn mad when I saw that broken screw, I put the optic in a vice block upside down, using a carbide drill bit I hollowed out the center of the broken screw. At this point only the threads of the screw remained and a thin bearing surface. Then I used a spring bar tool from a wrist watch repair kit to back out the threaded portion of the remaining screw (I actually chucked it into a cordless drill and reversed it) it came right out! I blasted out the hole with air, and hit it with alcohol. The Larue screw went in like nothing ever happened.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
I wish I had just broken a screw. I don't know of any way to get the helicoil back in. If I could find a replacement, I wouldn't bother sending it in.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-07-20, 16:40
I just had something go sideways on me. I was going to install the new mount on my T4 and when I removed the screws, a helicoil came out with one of them. I called customer support and told them what happened. He said no problem. He has them in stock and he took my mailing address and email. I also told him that I had a weekend of shooting planned and asked if the three screws were enough to hold the optic. He said, go ahead. If anything else fails because of that, I'm getting a new one anyway. I'm a bit ticked about having to send it in, but they acted quickly...so far.
So you've had LaRue and ADM mounts break, and now a helicoil backed out of your new Sig optic.
I don't say this often, or basically ever because it's 2020, but have you thought about just running iron sights?
MikhailBarracuda91
05-07-20, 16:42
I wish I had just broken a screw. I don't know of any way to get the helicoil back in. If I could find a replacement, I wouldn't bother sending it in.I was under the impression the the threads were machined into the mount, but TBH I didn't really look that in depth at them
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
So you've had LaRue and ADM mounts break, and now a helicoil backed out of your new Sig optic.
I don't say this often, or basically ever because it's 2020, but have you thought about just running iron sights?
I didn't say that the ADM and Larue mounts broke.
I was under the impression the the threads were machined into the mount, but TBH I didn't really look that in depth at them
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I was talking about the screws that hold the mount to the optic. The guy at sig verified that the newer 4ts have thread inserts. After he told me that, I looked more closely at the other holes and sure enough, they all had them.
When I first saw the helicoil, I got ticked because I thought it was a repair job and was getting ready to call the vendor, but then I noticed that there was anodizing on the threads that the inserts were sitting in. It was tapped for the insert before anodizing.
Mine must have been built on a Friday or a Monday. Oh, well. I like the fact that use them, but for my mishap. When you tighten the screws, you know when it's tight. The screws just stop turning.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-07-20, 17:11
I was talking about the screws that hold the mount to the optic. The guy at sig verified that the newer 4ts have thread inserts. After he told me that, I looked more closely at the other holes and sure enough, they all had them.
When I first saw the helicoil, I got ticked because I thought it was a repair job and was getting ready to call the vendor, but then I noticed that there was anodizing on the threads that the inserts were sitting in. It was tapped for the insert before anodizing.
Mine must have been built on a Friday or a Monday. Oh, well. I like the fact that use them, but for my mishap. When you tighten the screws, you know when it's tight. The screws just stop turning.Yeah im talking about the same thing. I'm not making any promises, but I recall my 4t basically being a block of 7075 with holes drilled and tapped into the bottom.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Yeah im talking about the same thing. I'm not making any promises, but I recall my 4t basically being a block of 7075 with holes drilled and tapped into the bottom.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
Oh, no. You're probably right. The screw inserts was a fairly recent thing. The guy that I talked to said the same thing you are, but when I said that it looked factory due to the anodizing under the insert, he made a call and said that they started doing that on the newer generation. I guess lots of guys overtightening.
I've had a Romeo 5 for a little over a year mounted on a 16 inch mid-length ar15. It quit working a few days ago while I was dry firing!! I never abused it! I cleaned the circuit board switched batteries and nothing. I will never trust one for serious use.
I've had a Romeo 5 for a little over a year mounted on a 16 inch mid-length ar15. It quit working a few days ago while I was dry firing!! I never abused it! I cleaned the circuit board switched batteries and nothing. I will never trust one for serious use.
Yeah, well, cheap optics. Some last for years and others not as long. I have a couple of TRS25s I've had for coming on a decade for one and more for the other and they're still running. I bought another a couple of weeks ago and after a weekend, had to exchange it. The new one died in a week.
I wouldn't trust ANY $100ish optic for anything serious. The Romeo4T is not another cheap red dot though.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-08-20, 00:20
Oh, no. You're probably right. The screw inserts was a fairly recent thing. The guy that I talked to said the same thing you are, but when I said that it looked factory due to the anodizing under the insert, he made a call and said that they started doing that on the newer generation. I guess lots of guys overtightening.It must be cheaper for them to delete the tapping process and add inserts in place
It'd be nice if they just came with good screws instead
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I've had a Romeo 5 for a little over a year mounted on a 16 inch mid-length ar15. It quit working a few days ago while I was dry firing!! I never abused it! I cleaned the circuit board switched batteries and nothing. I will never trust one for serious use. You cleaned the circuit board???
It must be cheaper for them to delete the tapping process and add inserts in place
It'd be nice if they just came with good screws instead
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk Helicoils still require tapping, and in some applications are superior to sticking a screw into aluminum threads. They’re probably not cheaper than tapping the aluminum.
Helicoils still require tapping, and in some applications are superior to sticking a screw into aluminum threads. They’re probably not cheaper than tapping the aluminum.
I would say that steel inserts in aluminum are superior in almost all applications, until you remove one along with the fastener. It's definitely not a sign of poor quality.
Andy
MikhailBarracuda91
05-08-20, 10:17
I would say that steel inserts in aluminum are superior in almost all applications, until you remove one along with the fastener. It's definitely not a sign of poor quality.
AndyThat's good, I really hope sig keeps upping the quality of their optics!
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After that, I went to ADM. Maybe a few years ago, this time we had just gotten to our shooting spot, I was just shooting and the ACOG on top of my rifle literally just fell off. I picked it up, inspected the mount and all looked as it should have. I clamped it back on the rifle and kept on shooting with no issues. I mean, the Larue and the ADM are fine mounts, but I guess I'm just the guy that this sort of stuff happens to. No more QD for me.
Did your ADM have two levers? Did both opening safeties fail?
Did your ADM have two levers? Did both opening safeties fail?
I was running a compact ACOG, TA44. One lever.
So you've had LaRue and ADM mounts break, and now a helicoil backed out of your new Sig optic.
I don't say this often, or basically ever because it's 2020, but have you thought about just running iron sights?
Must be a 11B.. ;)
hemidaytona
05-09-20, 15:57
Well, I have an Aimpoint Comp m4 and Romeo 5. Aimpoint died after minimal use. Very minimal. Aimpoint does not respond at all to emails about thier dead products and therefore your question about paying them to fix it will go unanswered repeatedly. Accordingly you will then buy the much cheaper Sig red Dot and wished you did that in the first place, for far less money. You can buy four or five Sig Romeo 5 units for the price of the unsupported Aimpoint. Never will I purchase another Aimpoint product. No reason to with all the alternatives out there. So, no, Aimpoint money does not buy you any advantage over the pile of five Sig red dots stacked up in your closet. It does buy you grief if you're in need of that by chance.
Well, I have an Aimpoint Comp m4 and Romeo 5. Aimpoint died after minimal use. Very minimal. Aimpoint does not respond at all to emails about thier dead products and therefore your question about paying them to fix it will go unanswered repeatedly. Accordingly you will then buy the much cheaper Sig red Dot and wished you did that in the first place, for far less money. You can buy four or five Sig Romeo 5 units for the price of the unsupported Aimpoint. Never will I purchase another Aimpoint product. No reason to with all the alternatives out there. So, no, Aimpoint money does not buy you any advantage over the pile of five Sig red dots stacked up in your closet. It does buy you grief if you're in need of that by chance.
I can vouch for this. I have three older Aimpoints that had issues: one original, an updated model, and a CompM2 that would not hold zero. They no longer support them, I could not pay to have them fixed... I would never buy Aimpoint because they have zero accountability and their response in my case proves it. I have an original and magnifier in a box somewhere and I tossed the other newer model and sold the CompM2 to a cloner who was okay with the zero issue.
At $700 the T1 would probably last long enough to fall out of warranty and id be shit out of luck if it failed. No way jose. I trust US owned companies with lifetime warranties for premium products. My 30 year old Tasco ProPoint red dot still holds zero and I would bet Tasco would honor their original warranty and replace it with a similar model of it did go. I paid $100 for it and its been on top of an SKS since the early 90s. It was a premium optic back in its day.
hemidaytona
05-09-20, 23:24
I love it! You just reminded me, regarding the Tasco red dot, about mine. I have one on my first gen Glock 17 Circa 1985 and it too is still running strong. There's reliable for ya! :-) (Obviously a different critter than the m4, but credit given where it's due)
I must have been gassed with LSD by the reds somehow. There’s just no way I’m seeing this on M4c.
Edit: to reconcile my $h!+posting, I’ll point out that I have seen Aimpoints die atop M4A1’s, Mk46’s, M2’s, and Mk48’s. I use them because they survived those weapons for whatever time they survived.
I am pretty sure you guys have been talking about "threaded inserts" (a common manufacturing component), not "Heli-Coils" (which is a brand who make helical inserts, a thread repair tool). Although I am probably splitting hair.
As said already though, threaded inserts does not "reduce cost". They almost certainly cost more and they are typically used to create stronger threads in soft materials (aluminum is very soft), especially on very small screw holes.
Think of it this way. On standard tapped aluminum holes, when someone over-torque the screw, you would strip out the hole in the aluminum, especially if you give them very strong screws. Thereafter, it is pretty much impossible to "repair" said item back to the "resalable condition". You would have to tap a bigger hole, and then use a helical insert (truly Helicoils in this case). If the product has 4 holes, and only one is repaired, subsequent buyers will easily tell one hole has been repaired before.
However, if you use threaded inserts, along with a softer / weaker screw, when someone over-torque it the screw would break and get stuck in the metal insert. In this case, all you have to do is back the entire metal insert out of the optic, and reinstall /loctite a new insert. Sometimes you can even just back the broken screw out. This makes reconditioning an item much easier, and allows it to be sold again as "refurbished".
So in a sense, while threaded inserts cost more initially, that additional cost may be offset once the total savings over the product's lifetime has been calculated. And even if the cost-savings end up being a wash, the increase in customer satisfaction would make them worthwhile upgrade. So don't think of them as inferior.
VT
I must have been gassed with LSD by the reds somehow. There’s just no way I’m seeing this on M4c.
Edit: to reconcile my $h!+posting, I’ll point out that I have seen Aimpoints die atop M4A1’s, Mk46’s, M2’s, and Mk48’s. I use them because they survived those weapons for whatever time they survived.
True. Hey buy what you want and trust. To me the Swedes have been riding the Marx train for a while: you know the NWO? My family left Sweden long ago before the isms took a foothold in the NEE..
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-10-20, 08:26
I must have been gassed with LSD by the reds somehow. There’s just no way I’m seeing this on M4c.
Yeah Tasco red dots that are purported to be better than Aimpoints lmao. I miss Iraqgunz.
Yeah Tasco red dots that are purported to be better than Aimpoints lmao. I miss Iraqgunz.
The irony is the broken Aimpoint in my optics box sitting next to the Tasco ProPoint that still shoots tight. Same era optics.
I helped upgrade a special unit years ago and they were running Tasco ProPoints on their subguns for years successfully. They were upgrading to SBRs.
We dont use irons as much due to the availability of optics. But irons are pretty capable at any practical range. The poster is correct in that night ops benefit from NV/IR and lasers when white light is not practical. But 25 years of LVPO is a stretch. We used fixed elcans on machine guns on occasion but we didn't use LPVO 25 years ago in the Navy. The Marines didn't use them. The Army I worked with didn't use variable except for battle rifles and overwatch roles. I don't know the first units that had LPVO but they were not big 25 years.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-10-20, 11:02
The irony is the broken Aimpoint in my optics box sitting next to the Tasco ProPoint that still shoots tight. Same era optics.
Samples of one are always extremely reliable indicators.
I didn't say that the ADM and Larue mounts broke.
No, the optics just 'fell off'
I've had bad experiences with ADM and Larue with optics falling off.
Sometimes things just follow people around, because it's not the things, it's the person.
Probably. Although, I think someone said they were made in Japan.
Funny how it's always "someone said" but there is never a photo to accompany it.
I did some research on the T4 also. It appears that it isn't a Chicom optic. It also isn't just a rebranded Holosun. I have to find that article and post a link. Holosun does not make Sig optics for Sig. Sig took over the factories making Holosun and Holosun products are still being made in those factories, from what I understood.
Ok, so SIG started by having the factory that made Holosun make it for SIG too.
Then they 'bought' the factory in China.
To make the same products, on the same machines, made by the same people from the same facilities...
It's like a game of 3 card monty.
Well, I have an Aimpoint Comp m4 and Romeo 5. Aimpoint died after minimal use. Very minimal. Aimpoint does not respond at all to emails about thier dead products and therefore your question about paying them to fix it will go unanswered repeatedly. Accordingly you will then buy the much cheaper Sig red Dot and wished you did that in the first place, for far less money. You can buy four or five Sig Romeo 5 units for the price of the unsupported Aimpoint. Never will I purchase another Aimpoint product. No reason to with all the alternatives out there. So, no, Aimpoint money does not buy you any advantage over the pile of five Sig red dots stacked up in your closet. It does buy you grief if you're in need of that by chance.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unilad.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2F21714UNILAD-imageoptim-legit.gif&f=1&nofb=1
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-10-20, 11:33
I helped upgrade a special unit years ago and they were running Tasco ProPoints on their subguns for years successfully. They were upgrading to SBRs.
It's 2020. Any special units still running $64 Tasco red dots?
We dont use irons as much due to the availability of optics. But irons are pretty capable at any practical range. The poster is correct in that night ops benefit from NV/IR and lasers when white light is not practical. But 25 years of LVPO is a stretch. We used fixed elcans on machine guns on occasion but we didn't use LPVO 25 years ago in the Navy. The Marines didn't use them. The Army I worked with didn't use variable except for battle rifles and overwatch roles. I don't know the first units that had LPVO but they were not big 25 years.
I was originally confused as to the relevance of this part of your post, then I realized you're responding to one of the quotes in my signature.
F2S is able to speak on these things in an authoritative sense. Can you? Honest question.
I’ve been in the units Jack is referring to in my signature. He didn’t make that stuff up. 25 might be a little long, but I promise that elite hunters of men have been using LPVOs to ventilate dudes for as long as quality ones have existed. Like the Short Dot.
I've been dealing with firearms optics since the seventies. There have been no days when Tasco was considered a premium product.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unilad.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2F21714UNILAD-imageoptim-legit.gif&f=1&nofb=1
Not taking any sides here, and sarcasm aside, but I think it is very possible (and probable) that everyone here is being truthful. I am not naive enough to think that a company like Aimpoint has never produced a lemon here and there. Or that a "cheap" red dot can't perform as well as something costing twice as much.
I have three Aimpoints, two Eotechs, and a Trijicon RDS. I also have ONE Sig Romeo 4DR. None of those optics have ever given me trouble and have always held zero. Maybe I'm just lucky. And yes I consider myself a high round count shooter so those optics do have some miles behind them.
That being said, do I trust the Romeo as much as the others? Probably not. But everyone here has the right to purchase and trust whatever they want -especially if based on their own past experience- without being rebuked by others. Just my two cents anyway.
I will make a input, the mindset you and your son should have is to consider every factors of decision and think ahead. Think way ahead. Aimpoint cost much more than Romeo and other cheaper alternative sure. But consider this, do you and your son have much more of life ahead of you to live? How many years? 10? 20? 30? 40? 50? You want to make purchase of product that will last as long as you or outlast you not other way around. Buy once, cry once is cheaper than risking it new kid on the block. With Aimpoint, their warranty, I don't know if they got any but for me, it has one. It's warranty is that it will not break before it's alternatives. It's is virtually guaranteed to perform for years to not fail take note how many beaten to hell ancient COMP M2 and earlier models there are on ebay. I have seen so many, too many holosun failing that I would not consider them at all, not even for range toy .22lr. I will buy primary arms mirco with side dial rheostat over any other aimpoint alternatives from my personal experience with their ancient long discontinued model MD-09 that have seen so many rounds(over 5k ez personally not to mention unknown thousands from previous owners) and batteries. From my time lurking many forums over the years the rate of failure of commonly known brand the Holosun has most of reported failures. I dont know about sig micro they are too new for me to consider them. Too few people buy sig optic compared to competitors, that alone is deterrent enough based on many reasons. I strongly suggest your son to buy used aimpoint R1, H1, T1, Comp m3 and m4s, PRO, etc. especially if your son's rifle is only one he got. Consider this, aimpoint will always be desirable they hold their value unlike aimpoint alternatives.
Make the right choice first time.
In my opinion you already messed up by buying romeo, you just don't know it yet. I ****ing-guarantee you my LIFE that if you buy 1k aimpoint t1 and 1k holosun, the holosun will have times higher failure rate and time lower longevity. When you buy aimpoint you are basically paying for guarantee that it will perform without failure opposite to rolling dice to save few hundred. I strongly advise everybody to avoid any reddot model that have any extra feature like stupid motion detection turning on the sight and timer turning it off. Gimmicky solar and the likes. Why? I have seen many of them especially Holosun fail and the worse offenders are the model with those gimmicky features, granted I remember few that has feature fail but still turn on manually. I'm confident if you look up "holosun broke" , "holosun issue" , etc you will find too many reported failures to be comfortingly recommending those for your son.
I close with something that bother me the most and will bother shit out of you, unless you are a fool. Can you sleep at night suspecting you have wronged your son by giving him green light to pinch penny on his optic. Can you sleep at night knowing you have failed to serve as wise father. I'm sorry, but it is evident that you have already failed but it is never too late to change that. I feel dirty going there but I'm doing it out of my wisdom, my attempt to save other man from misery and headache. Please, make the right choice, I ate rice and bean for much less. This does not stop with optic or gun. Please make wise decision based on some researching before every purchase as you can reasonably do. Especially things like cars. Buying wrong car or right car can cost or make man's life. Buying solid vehicle like panther platform, 2nd or higher gen tundra, etc would freed man's time and money for improving his life as opposed to buying shitty car that need new transmission, major engine repair, or has electricity gremlins. Basically car that wouldn't last 300k mile without major repair (*staring dead at you FCA). Not to mention the stress and frustration that come with buying wrong vehicle.
Make the right choice at any cost, in this case it is even weighted against the cost.
But everyone here has the right to purchase and trust whatever they want -especially if based on their own past experience- without being rebuked by others. Just my two cents anyway.
I guess I've been in entities where one was expected to have very thick skin, so the 'rebukes' and 'sarcasm' are just par for the course when I hear things I either disagree with or think are just plain bull$hit, and everything in between. I guess it hurts peoples feelings, or is a burr under their saddle.
So yeah, purchase what you want but when semi-unbelievable things are posted - like all Aimpoints on the planet imploding and quality mounts being shit, but generally crap optics being 'premium'... I know nothing is perfect and every company has a bad day, but yeah, I'd expect someone like that to get some $hit around these parts.
But I guess maybe the leftists need to pass the "Anti-Butt-Hurt" Amendment, where hurting the sensibilities of people is not allowed and considered a crime... Because as far as I can see, there aren't any such protections, at this time.
;)
I've been dealing with firearms optics since the seventies. There have been no days when Tasco was considered a premium product.
When I was 14 I considered it a “premium product”:)
I guess I've been in entities where one was expected to have very thick skin, so the 'rebukes' and 'sarcasm' are just par for the course when I hear things I either disagree with or think are just plain bull$hit, and everything in between. I guess it hurts peoples feelings, or is a burr under their saddle.
So yeah, purchase what you want but when semi-unbelievable things are posted - like all Aimpoints on the planet imploding and quality mounts being shit, but generally crap optics being 'premium'... I know nothing is perfect and every company has a bad day, but yeah, I'd expect someone like that to get some $hit around these parts.
But I guess maybe the leftists need to pass the "Anti-Butt-Hurt" Amendment, where hurting the sensibilities of people is not allowed and considered a crime... Because as far as I can see, there aren't any such protections, at this time.
;)
Oh believe me I get it...there is no snowflake skin here trust me on that. I was speaking more to people challenging the authenticity of others' experiences. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. I suppose I didn't word my previous post as well as I should have. Oh well, wasn't the first time and won't be the last. Rock on.
Torquetard
05-10-20, 21:02
I have been weighing the pros and cons, realizing that the US made red dots suck, especially the MRO, it is such a piece of shit lol, and that I want another T2 but am never paying that for a red dot again, and that Horosun has the G2G by shills and actual end users alike, but I don't want to buy chicom crap either so I am simply going to get a solid set of USA made irons that hopefully aren't made from Chinese steel.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-10-20, 22:23
Oh believe me I get it...there is no snowflake skin here trust me on that. I was speaking more to people challenging the authenticity of others' experiences. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. I suppose I didn't word my previous post as well as I should have. Oh well, wasn't the first time and won't be the last. Rock on.
My issue is they simply don't pass the sniff test because they are far outside of the norm with little to no explanation. One of them has two posts in six years on this forum and both are in this thread, one vague post about a broken Aimpoint and another about a 35 year old Tasco on a G17 that's still trucking along. Those are what I consider far from normal.
It's not that I don't believe Aimpoint can ship a lemon. I know a real life, living and breathing human being who got a bad Aimpoint micro several years ago. Fresh outta the box it would power on and turn off after about 5 seconds. He contacted Aimpoint CS, don't recall if it were via email or phone call, but they got back to him within a day or two and he sent the optic back and had a new one within a week.
If I hear about someone having problems with an Anderson lower being out of spec, I don't really need or request any detailed information about it because that's what they're best known for. If I hear about a LMT, KAC, Colt or BCM lower being out of spec and no details are given, I'm skeptical because it's definitely not the norm.
We know that there are several Aimpoints who've been blown up, shot, driven over, and smashed during the GWOT and they still worked. I remember when the PRO came out and it was $379. There were people who were convinced that Aimpoint had released a turd for that price point. They were convinced that major corners must have been cut in order to hit that price. All these years later, countless PRO's in service and there is no widespread failures. In fact, there was a PRO that survived a house fire sometime in the last decade and it still worked.
I don't care if people don't like Aimpoint because they're too expensive or whatever, but claims of them being garbage by people who provide no real information and seem to bounce when questioned about it aren't going to be viewed as credible unless proven otherwise.
https://youtu.be/oXdriW3KfwU
I don't care if people don't like Aimpoint because they're too expensive or whatever, but claims of them being garbage by people who provide no real information and seem to bounce when questioned about it aren't going to be viewed as credible unless proven otherwise.
That is totally fair. And admittedly while I have been following this thread I'm pretty sure I didn't read all 200+ posts.
Oh and I remember that video! Didn't LAV take the burned one and shoot with it afterwards? Epic.
Oh believe me I get it...there is no snowflake skin here trust me on that. I was speaking more to people challenging the authenticity of others' experiences. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. I suppose I didn't word my previous post as well as I should have. Oh well, wasn't the first time and won't be the last. Rock on.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fviralviralvideos.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FGIF%2F2015%2F07%2FHey-good-job-man-GIF.gif&f=1&nofb=1
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-11-20, 09:26
That is totally fair. And admittedly while I have been following this thread I'm pretty sure I didn't read all 200+ posts.
Oh and I remember that video! Didn't LAV take the burned one and shoot with it afterwards? Epic.
He did.
Aimpoint is definitely best of the best when it comes to RDS. However thats not to say say there cant be any other good companies, some at a lower cost. Technology advances, costs go down, its the way things go. I am sure the production costs in Sweden are very different than China. The production methods are probably different as well.
Holosun is making a huge impact on the market though. I have a T1 and 403R. As much as it pains me to admit it, the dot on the 403 is nicer than the T1, the glass has less tint, and magnified it is 10x better. I dont have a t2 at the moment but I am sure that is what the 403 was trying to copy, and it probably does an excellent job. Holosuns seem to be taking a beating too.
I think the only way to tell is recreating Larry's DD torture test with a holosun. It has to be in a different mount however. There are plenty of cases of the factory mounts failing.
I've been dealing with firearms optics since the seventies. There have been no days when Tasco was considered a premium product.
IPSC in the early 90's?
62309
Look through this magazine and you'll see that the Tasco Pro Point was pretty much THE optic - obviously they haven't held that spot, but, just sayin',,,,,,,,
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/50981391/may-jun-uspsa
62310
IPSC in the early 90's?
62309
Look through this magazine and you'll see that the Tasco Pro Point was pretty much THE optic - obviously they haven't held that spot, but, just sayin',,,,,,,,
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/50981391/may-jun-uspsa
62310
Like I mentioned before: I helped a regional HRT upgrade from subguns to SBRs and they had been using ProPoints for years successfully. The old Aimpoints were trash they would flicker under recoil. The ProPoints didnt.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-12-20, 09:15
IPSC in the early 90's?
62309
Look through this magazine and you'll see that the Tasco Pro Point was pretty much THE optic - obviously they haven't held that spot, but, just sayin',,,,,,,,
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/50981391/may-jun-uspsa
62310
What they're using in competitions doesn't correlate with what is suitable for defensive use though. Right now, the Leupold DPP is one of the more widely used optic in USPSA and they're not known to be durable. There are competition shooters who keep multiples of them so when one breaks and has to go back to Leupold they can just pull one off the shelf while it's being repaired and add it into the rotation. When I was researching pistol red dots, I found this thread where the author and his wife have broken 31 DPP's. They take extra slides with them to matches with zeroed red dots.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37128-Red-dot-update-June-2019
What they're using in competitions doesn't correlate with what is suitable for defensive use though.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37128-Red-dot-update-June-2019
I would bet Leopold, Trijicon, Eotech, and Vortex would repair or replace any of their RDS when Aimpoint discontinues support for their products. As far a ruggedness: these companies are all top of the line making combat grade products. Not sure what your point is, other than competition optics are not always combat grade? The Tasco ProPoint was good enough to be used by police for well over a decade. Can you imagine if Tasco had a military grade line? It would be sick if they had kept up with the professional RDS game. Sadly its all chicom trash and maybe competition grade, honestly have not checked their offerings in ages.
I used Trijicon and Eotech in the Middle East, Latin America, Asia and Pacific. I know our snipers uses Leopold. I prefer Eotech 62/68 ring dot over anything. I liked Trijicons chevron reticle also. As a civilian I enjoy several RDS but its not as fast as a HWS for me.
What they're using in competitions doesn't correlate with what is suitable for defensive use though. Right now, the Leupold DPP is one of the more widely used optic in USPSA and they're not known to be durable. There are competition shooters who keep multiples of them so when one breaks and has to go back to Leupold they can just pull one off the shelf while it's being repaired and add it into the rotation. When I was researching pistol red dots, I found this thread where the author and his wife have broken 31 DPP's. They take extra slides with them to matches with zeroed red dots.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37128-Red-dot-update-June-2019
My Friend, you kind of missed the point, it wasn't durability or suitability I was commenting on, it was consideration as a premium product. Even back in the day - 90's Aimpoint had an optic for IPSC/USPSA. The fact that many of the top competitors chose the TASCO ProPoint over the available Aimpoints tends to make me believe it was considered premium. This is kind of along the lines of every dog has its day.
Just like all the younger folks who made a sport of trash talking Bushmaster and Olympic Arms - at one time you couldn't hardly get a Colt. BM and Oly started making AR's well before the GWOT exploded the popularity of the platform and induced new manufacturers into the market. While not considered premium, or mil-spec, those manufacturers do deserve some credit for thir efforts.
Things weren't always like they were today.
As for GJM and Mrs. GJM, folks who own two SuperCubs and at least one JetRanger to tool around in are operating in a different realm than your or I, well at least me. :)
fingerguns
05-12-20, 10:48
I shot IPSC in the late 90's and I can tell you that TASCO and CMORE were the bees knees. I didn't run either because I was an iron sight snob but plenty of folks were proud of TASCO. Jerseys, non sponsored hats and T-shirt ect.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-12-20, 11:59
I would bet Leopold, Trijicon, Eotech, and Vortex would repair or replace any of their RDS when Aimpoint discontinues support for their products.
"I would bet" may as well be "I'm talking out of my ass here". I don't own any Leupold or Vortex products, but EoTech doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation when it comes to ponying up and accepting responsibility for turning out bad products. I've never had to use Trijicon CS but from what I hear they're great.
If my nearly two decades old CompM2 that's been treated like a rented mule were to stop working today and I couldn't get it serviced by Aimpoint, I'd toss it and buy another Aimpoint of some flavor. When the mount gave out I just bought a new one from Scalarworks and didn't expect Aimpoint to fix or replace something that I've had for so long and has been used so much. *shrugs*
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-12-20, 12:12
My Friend, you kind of missed the point, it wasn't durability or suitability I was commenting on, it was consideration as a premium product. Even back in the day - 90's Aimpoint had an optic for IPSC/USPSA. The fact that many of the top competitors chose the TASCO ProPoint over the available Aimpoints tends to make me believe it was considered premium. This is kind of along the lines of every dog has its day.
Just like all the younger folks who made a sport of trash talking Bushmaster and Olympic Arms - at one time you couldn't hardly get a Colt. BM and Oly started making AR's well before the GWOT exploded the popularity of the platform and induced new manufacturers into the market. While not considered premium, or mil-spec, those manufacturers do deserve some credit for thir efforts.
Things weren't always like they were today.
As for GJM and Mrs. GJM, folks who own two SuperCubs and at least one JetRanger to tool around in are operating in a different realm than your or I, well at least me. :)
My point was what is considered premium for comp use isn't necessarily premium for defensive use. Tasco being popular in the 90's and the DPP being popular now are examples of that.
I don't know if at 40 I'm what you consider "younger folks" or not, but I feel like I'm at least a little bit qualified to trash talk BM and Olympic Arms if I chose to considering I owned them prior to the AWB lapsing. They certainly filled a void during that time, and that void was simply availability. That's kinda where I put Tasco, the Olympic Arms of optics.
It's interesting seeing how many people refer to the newer features like shake awake and solar power as gimmicks. I bet if Aimpoint had rolled those features out people would be singing their praises.
Cue all the "Not me, it would be gimmicks no matter who started doing it!" and "Aimpoint doesn't need those features anyway" responses.
I don’t like that Holosun is made in China, but the features that they bring to the table at their prices are ridiculous. The “big” names are very quickly being out paced, especially in the civilian market. We should all be happy, the more people buy Holosuns, the more Aimpoint will be forced to innovate and/or lower their prices. They’ve been doing the same one dot for decades and while it’s good, their latest and greatest was a stupid red dot with turrets or some weird shit. And it costs as much as a decent LPVO and mount. My hope is that if nothing else, an American owned company like vortex can compete with the features.
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It's interesting seeing how many people refer to the newer features like shake awake and solar power as gimmicks. I bet if Aimpoint had rolled those features out people would be singing their praises.
Cue all the "Not me, it would be gimmicks no matter who started doing it!" and "Aimpoint doesn't need those features anyway" responses.
Yeah I never understood all the disdain for the motion sensor tech. I don't see why it is a bad thing, especially if you have the option to disable it. To be quite honest, I'm thinking of replacing my bedside rifle's optic, which currently wears an Eotech, to a Leupold LCO just for that motion tech.
Leupold LCO
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F98ron.superunleaded.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F09%2FOuch-gif-1.gif&f=1&nofb=1
I guess someone has to buy those.... I remember when they were peddling them for $900 or some crazy $hit like that, with LEUPOLD LCO in white branding all over it...
I don’t like that Holosun is made in China, but the features that they bring to the table at their prices are ridiculous. The “big” names are very quickly being out paced, especially in the civilian market. We should all be happy, the more people buy Holosuns, the more Aimpoint will be forced to innovate and/or lower their prices. They’ve been doing the same one dot for decades and while it’s good, their latest and greatest was a stupid red dot with turrets or some weird shit. And it costs as much as a decent LPVO and mount. My hope is that if nothing else, an American owned company like vortex can compete with the features.
And I'm sure your odds of getting a bad one from Holosun can't be any worse that your personal experience 50% odds with KAC, Vortex Razor, Noveske, etc. ;)
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F98ron.superunleaded.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F09%2FOuch-gif-1.gif&f=1&nofb=1
I guess someone has to buy those.... I remember when they were peddling them for $900 or some crazy $hit like that, with LEUPOLD LCO in white branding all over it...
I actually did already buy one, ha! It's for my "quarantine build" rifle I'm putting together though. Just for fun. Bought it off a member here for $550 but yes the MSRP price on those is a little out of control. I think they toned down the "whiteness" on the branding as mine looks a little more subdued. Anyway, haven't shot with it yet but build quality seems very nice, dot is crisp, and yes I do like the (gasp!) motion activation.
Your picture animation things crack me up by the way haha!
I don’t like that Holosun is made in China, but the features that they bring to the table at their prices are ridiculous. The “big” names are very quickly being out paced, especially in the civilian market. We should all be happy, the more people buy Holosuns, the more Aimpoint will be forced to innovate and/or lower their prices. They’ve been doing the same one dot for decades and while it’s good, their latest and greatest was a stupid red dot with turrets or some weird shit. And it costs as much as a decent LPVO and mount. My hope is that if nothing else, an American owned company like vortex can compete with the features.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with all of that. When I look at an Aimpoint, at least the high-end models, I just can't figure out where the money goes. They definitely make a good product, but I can't reconcile the exorbitant price with the simple and basic end product.
As for Holosun, I also hate that they're a Chinese company, but I have astigmatism which has made RDS a non-starter for years. Then along comes Holosun with their non-pixelated circle dot reticle and for some reason it works great for me so that's what I buy. I haven't had the chance to check out the Sig models and I didn't know until reading this thread that there was a model not made in China. I did look at the new MRO briefly and it looked good too, but I'm not impressed with the battery life.
Yeah I never understood all the disdain for the motion sensor tech. I don't see why it is a bad thing, especially if you have the option to disable it. To be quite honest, I'm thinking of replacing my bedside rifle's optic, which currently wears an Eotech, to a Leupold LCO just for that motion tech.
It reminds me of the early days when they started putting power windows and door locks in cars and a lot of people complained it was just something else to break. For a while people would go out of their way to find a car without them, but we can all see how that turned out.
Just wait until there is a weapon system that powers on when it registers someone is holding the grip. Wins a couple wars in South Asia and Africa. Old folks will still say it is risky twenty years after inception.
And I'm sure your odds of getting a bad one from Holosun can't be any worse that your personal experience 50% odds with KAC, Vortex Razor, Noveske, etc. ;)
Haha that was a bad year. I just got one in actually and while its not mounted yet, it works for now so that's a plus. We will see. At least its kind of like my PSA upper though, if it breaks it wasn't so expensive that it feels like a personal insult.
"I would bet" may as well be "I'm talking out of my ass here". I don't own any Leupold or Vortex products, but EoTech doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation when it comes to ponying up and accepting responsibility for turning out bad products. I've never had to use Trijicon CS but from what I hear they're great.
If my nearly two decades old CompM2 that's been treated like a rented mule were to stop working today and I couldn't get it serviced by Aimpoint, I'd toss it and buy another Aimpoint of some flavor. When the mount gave out I just bought a new one from Scalarworks and didn't expect Aimpoint to fix or replace something that I've had for so long and has been used so much. *shrugs*
I have used all three and they are all great. Eotech, Trijicon, Leopold, and Vortex all have bulletproof fix or replace warranties. So I guess it's not coming out of my ass.
I will say I'm firmly of the camp of high end or really cheap.
Meaning for me, it's Aimpoint / Eotech / Trijicon RMR for expensive duty RDS or cheap SIG Romeo 5s for PCC / beater $95-120.
The $200-350 ones from SIG / Holosun / etc just don't interest me - so I either save up for an Aimpoint or just buy a cheap SIG R5. Part of that reason is there is just no longevity on the SIG / Holosuns - sure, they work great for a couple years, but will they all start $hitting the bed in 5-10 years?
I actually did already buy one, ha! It's for my "quarantine build" rifle I'm putting together though. Just for fun. Bought it off a member here for $550 but yes the MSRP price on those is a little out of control. I think they toned down the "whiteness" on the branding as mine looks a little more subdued. Anyway, haven't shot with it yet but build quality seems very nice, dot is crisp, and yes I do like the (gasp!) motion activation.
Your picture animation things crack me up by the way haha!
I hope it works out for you - if they had come out in the $500 price range with a subdued model from the beginning, I think they would have had far more success. I recall a Leupold Rep saying "But its the BEST RDS out there" for $800+. When you get to the point of being the price of 2xPros, that RDS better also give sexual favors. I know they were gunning for military contracts in the wake of the Eotech scandal, but they priced themselves WAAAAY the Foook out of the market.
I hope it works out for you - if they had come out in the $500 price range with a subdued model from the beginning, I think they would have had far more success. I recall a Leupold Rep saying "But its the BEST RDS out there" for $800+. When you get to the point of being the price of 2xPros, that RDS better also give sexual favors. I know they were gunning for military contracts in the wake of the Eotech scandal, but they priced themselves WAAAAY the Foook out of the market.
Leupold's LCO is around $700, less with street price discounts and has the gold ring transferable guarantee. At 9oz it's not as heavy as the Vortex UH1 11oz. but still can't beat Eotech 8oz. I trust Eotech to repair but I would trust Leupold to make it right even after they no longer support the optic. I prefer the features on the Vortex UH1 but it's too big and heavy for my taste: but I trust Vortex warranty unquestionably. Aimpoint no way.
The Aimpoint Pros are great but they are not military grade by any means. They lack forged strength and waterproof abilities of their more expensive counterparts.
Get what gets the job done but shaming products without citing facts and hypothetical costs is silly. I agree with the aforementioned "feature" comments, and evolution in optics is fine as long as it does not fail when it gets put to real world use. Leupolds RDS looks like a lot of bang for the buck with a warranty you will not get from Aimpoint. Maybe they should make a blacked out tactical version for those who can't get past the gold ring and associating it with dad's hunting scope?
Leupold's LCO is around $700, less with street price discounts and has the gold ring transferable guarantee. At 9oz it's not as heavy as the Vortex UH1 11oz. but still can't beat Eotech 8oz. I trust Eotech to repair but I would trust Leupold to make it right even after they no longer support the optic. I prefer the features on the Vortex UH1 but it's too big and heavy for my taste: but I trust Vortex warranty unquestionably. Aimpoint no way.
The Aimpoint Pros are great but they are not military grade by any means. They lack forged strength and waterproof abilities of their more expensive counterparts.
Get what gets the job done but shaming products without citing facts and hypothetical costs is silly. I agree with the aforementioned "feature" comments, and evolution in optics is fine as long as it does not fail when it gets put to real world use. Leupolds RDS looks like a lot of bang for the buck with a warranty you will not get from Aimpoint. Maybe they should make a blacked out tactical version for those who can't get past the gold ring and associating it with dad's hunting scope?
Leupold just did. No gold ring. 34mm wide tube. I've been thinking about getting one.
Yeah I never understood all the disdain for the motion sensor tech. I don't see why it is a bad thing, especially if you have the option to disable it. To be quite honest, I'm thinking of replacing my bedside rifle's optic, which currently wears an Eotech, to a Leupold LCO just for that motion tech.
I really like the idea of the two Nikon optics I have for my dedicated rimfire upper - they turn off after 2 hours, then you manually turn them back on. For a recreational gun, that is a real battery saver. The motion sensor feature always gives me visions of standing in my bedroom at 0dark30 frantically shaking the gun to turn the optic on (I know that's not how they work).
Andy
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Leupold just did. No gold ring. 34mm wide tube. I've been thinking about getting one.
Hopefully the lenses are glued in correctly on yours. Rear one falls out after the second shot at 11:08....
https://youtu.be/_DkALBk7bd8?t=667
The Aimpoint Pros are great but they are not military grade by any means. They lack forged strength and waterproof abilities of their more expensive counterparts.
Interesting, links / data to back it up? Also, what is "military grade"..? I mean since I'm 'product shaming'... (you must have taken a WOKE class or be dating an alphabet person...). It's rated to 45m per Aimpoints website and I don't see many failures noted online. Absolutely none with mine. Vortex has a great warranty (and they need it in my experience).
Yes LCOs have come down in price but that was the butchers bill when they unveiled them and it was pretty much <crickets, crickets, crickets> on reviews and real live experiences posted for a long, long time. They have come down a bit, but it's been out for 3-4 years now, maybe more?
Let us know how the Leupold RDS works out, not sure what the audience is with that. 1000 hr battery life on 4 out of 8? Mmmmkay, I think I'd recommend Aimpoint Pro or ACO before that thing.
But hey, do you man - or whatever your preferred pronoun is...
Yeah I never understood all the disdain for the motion sensor tech. I don't see why it is a bad thing, especially if you have the option to disable it. To be quite honest, I'm thinking of replacing my bedside rifle's optic, which currently wears an Eotech, to a Leupold LCO just for that motion tech.
Me neither, although in the past I've never used that feature. I do know what happens when I forget to turnoff my Accupower LPVO! But for the lockdown I decided to give that feature a try and for the last 8 weeks I've left it on (Romeo4 M&H) to give it a try. So far it's worked fine. On and bright for every check so far with the battery still working. I'll see how long it last.
Hopefully the lenses are glued in correctly on yours. Rear one falls out after the second shot at 11:08....
video=youtube_share;_DkALBk7bd8]https://youtu.be/_DkALBk7bd8?t=667[/video]
Lol, wow. That's not good. The LCO however claims 5 years of battery life. Hopefully the damn lenses stay on!
The motion sensor feature always gives me visions of standing in my bedroom at 0dark30 frantically shaking the gun to turn the optic on (I know that's not how they work).
Andy
I actually tested the LCO...I sat it on top my gun safe (big heavy one) and waited for it to turn off. Then I tapped on the side of the safe with two fingers and the optic turned on. The motion activation is extremely sensitive.
3ACR_Scout
05-19-20, 15:39
Very helpful post, thanks for this ^
Great post.
A belated thanks for the feedback - I'm glad you found something useful in my post. I continue to think a lot about our economic relationship with China as the world situation evolves, but I'll hold off on commenting on that any further.
I wanted to provide a few thoughts on the Holosun HS403R, now that I have it in hand. I'm pretty impressed with the quality of the optic. The glass is very clear and the dot is sharp and similar in appearance and brightness to my Aimpoint Micros. I like the activation / brightness adjustment dial due to its similarity to the way Aimpoints operate. It turns smoothly with audible and tactile clicks. It's much easier to turn than my T-2, while still being stiff enough to prevent inadvertently changing the setting if it gets bumped somehow. The zero adjustments are smooth and easy to turn, and I like the built-in tool on the caps. One odd thing though - the dot came from the factory adjust pretty far to the right, and I had to turn it about 50 clicks to bring it back into alignment with my irons, which were set at mechanical zero in terms of windage since the rear back-up site is also new. Really minor complaint: I don't care for the way Holosun applies a dark grey matte finish to the sight body but a glossy black coating on the dial and caps.
On a separate note, I was hoping to be able to put an Aimpoint T-1 IO cover on the 403R (which I understand fits on the 503G and some others), but the 403R is slightly longer, and the protective bumps for the adjustment turrets (?) prevent the IO cover from fitting. I'll have to see if there are any flip caps that fit the Holosun, because I really don't like bikini cap thing.
The one thing I don't really care for on this sight is the mount. I use Larue LT660 QD mounts for my Aimpoints to get the lower 1/3 co-witness and also allow me to remove them occasionally to test on other rifles or to fit them in a smaller carrying case. I like that they can maintain their zero while still having that QD flexibility. I found a great deal from a member of another forum on a very lightly used LT751 QD mount (absolute co-witness with Aimpoint). It arrived yesterday, and I installed it and tested it out. Because the 403R body is a bit taller than an Aimpoint, it sits higher when installed on the same mount. For comparison, I measured the centerline of the LT660 / T-2 combo at approximately 1.69" (I believe the official T-1 height is 1.64"), while the LT751 / HS403R came out to about 1.59". A slight difference, but both heights feel comfortable to me so far. I'm looking forward to trying it out when I can get back out to the range. I'll definitely make use of the QD mount to try the Holosun on different platforms.
One kind of funny comment on quality control: the HS403R came with the usual L-shaped tool for mounting, which uses the star-shaped Torx wrench interface. The short end of the tool was misshapen so that it won't engage with the bolt on the Holosun mount. I could only use the long end (with less leverage) to tighten it, but of course I have a driver on hand with multiple bits, including various Torx sizes. I guess... you get what you pay for. For about $220 total including the Larue mount, I think I'll be pretty happy with this sight as a truck / training / loaner gun optic.
Because my astigmatism is getting worse I went with the Holosun hs510c plus magnifier.
Maybe a little late, but it's my understanding that the previous version of the Romeo4 that was being used by the FBI before the 4T was the 4M. Just out of boredom, I did a bit of research on it and it appears that the 4M is just a 4T without the solar panels and without the BDC reticle options. I was also able to find a thread on a forum wherein a guy was able to confirm that the 4M was marked "designed in Oregon, assembled in the USA."
A little more digging and I found the 4M in stock at Primary Arms for $199. I really wish I knew that before I dropped $400+ on the 4T. I couldn't care less about the solar panels and the BDC does nothing for me because I'm shooting a 10.5" build and it shoots relatively flat to 200 before it drops like a brick anyway. The mount that comes with the 4M sucks, but I'm just gonna use the mount that came with my 4T for a lower 1/3 co-witness and throw it on my AR22.
3ACR_Scout
05-27-20, 23:23
Thanks for the info on the Romeo 4M. I was curious about that because I kept hearing that Romeo 4s were very affordable, but I wasn’t sure which model people were referring to (since the 4T isn’t that cheap, as you mentioned). My understanding is that the FBI uses this Daniel Defense mount (https://www.primaryarms.com/daniel-defense-aimpoint-micro-mount-absolute-lower-1-3rd-cowitness-03-045-18025). Maybe they feel the same way about the SIG mount.
Thanks for the info on the Romeo 4M. I was curious about that because I kept hearing that Romeo 4s were very affordable, but I wasn’t sure which model people were referring to (since the 4T isn’t that cheap, as you mentioned). My understanding is that the FBI uses this Daniel Defense mount (https://www.primaryarms.com/daniel-defense-aimpoint-micro-mount-absolute-lower-1-3rd-cowitness-03-045-18025). Maybe they feel the same way about the SIG mount.
I'm guessing it is the reason. It's probably also the reason that the 4T was spec'd to come with the mount that it did. The 4T mount is bullet proof. I would have stuck with it, if I didn't find that I much prefer the 1.93 height mount. I got the Geissele and when comparing the two, there are some striking similarities in terms of the bolt used and the recoil lug. Both have uncanny return-to-zero ability without the use of a torque wrench. I cut a 1/2" wrench in half and keep it in my grip in case I have to remove the sight to resort to the back ups or some other reason.
Just after posting my reply above, I also got an email from Sig saying that my brand new 4T is on it's way back to me and should be here Friday. Not bad considering that I shipped it last week and they only received it on Saturday. I don't know how Sig handles customer service on their firearms, but their optics division is on the ball.
Man, I'm almost tempted to order another 4M and sell the 4T when it gets here.
Well, I got the Romeo4M in. Pulled the mount and checked the bottom. Labeled "Designed in Oregon...Assembled in CHINA."
I'm gonna keep it though. At $199, it's definitely worth the extra money over what the Romeo5 I just bought cost, so I'm gonna return the Romeo5.
Mysteryman
05-29-20, 20:27
Well, I got the Romeo4M in. Pulled the mount and checked the bottom. Labeled "Designed in Oregon...Assembled in CHINA."
I'm gonna keep it though. At $199, it's definitely worth the extra money over what the Romeo5 I just bought cost, so I'm gonna return the Romeo5.
AT $199 you honestly thought it was both domestic and quality??
AT $199 you honestly thought it was both domestic and quality??
Well, considering that the 4M sold for $400-$500 when it was Sig's top of the line and the fact that the FBI ok'd it for use, I thought that at $200, it was worth checking out.
Thanks for your contribution to the thread.
MikhailBarracuda91
05-30-20, 00:03
AT $199 you honestly thought it was both domestic and quality??Aimpoint isn't a domestic product and its excellent. The Colt M4 was sold to the US government for over $1000 for a long time. Once Colt lost the sole source, the prices came down, but not so much that it would incriminate them. FN now makes the EXACT same product for less money.
Much like rifle's, optics are very much the same in this regard. Aimpoint spent the money researching and developing new technologies to create the amazing products we have available today.
However, you have to pay for that investment they made. Companies like Holosun, Sig, and others have copied the Aimpoint product to great success and at a fraction of the cost.
I'm not saying a Romeo 4 is the same quality as an Aimpoint. But the value in the Sig product is undeniable. Not to mention that the Romeo 4 lineup is rather proven by now (especially the 4M and 4T) there's actually photos of British SAS using the 4T
https://thereptilehouseblog.com/2019/08/25/in-the-wild-uksf-l119a2-obi-wan-nairobi-romeo-4t-fde/
The Romeo 4M originally was around $400, but the 4T made it obsolete to law enforcement. So now there's basically an excessive amount of unsold 4M's floating around for excellent prices. (Not to mention they use an Aimpoint micro mount)
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
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Leupold just did. No gold ring. 34mm wide tube. I've been thinking about getting one.
Leupold’s motion-activated illumination technology is very mature and reliable.
I have more than two dozen, closer to three dozen, optics from many different companies, including Zeiss, Kahles, Burris, Vortex, Weaver, Nikon, B&L, Bushnell, and others, so I’m no particular brand whore. Among my Leupold optics are illuminated VX-R, VX6-HD Firedots and two Deltapoint Pros, with motion-activation.
One of the two DPPs resides on my HD carbine at absolute cowitness height. I’ve run that one for about five years, now. It, like the other motion-activated Leupolds, has been 100% reliable and has insanely long (years) battery life. It is a viable duty grade red dot option. It is my choice for my HD bedside carbine.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-30-20, 11:51
Much like rifle's, optics are very much the same in this regard. Aimpoint spent the money researching and developing new technologies to create the amazing products we have available today. However, you have to pay for that investment they made. Companies like Holosun, Sig, and others have copied the Aimpoint product to great success and at a fraction of the cost.
Yeah it's easy to sell a chinese red dot for $120 when another company footed the bill for R&D.
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