View Full Version : It Was May, 1984...And Something Wonderful Happened...
https://i.imgur.com/uDEqLDw.jpg
Inflation Calculator says the same item today should cost about $1620. Given the SP5 has added a factory short Navy barrel, paddle mag and some other improvements I'd say the going rate of $2,600 isn't a terrible deal.
By 1984 I had just purchased a 91 and a 93 and simply couldn't swing the price of a 94. But man this is the one I wanted.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-20, 02:40
And an P7M8...
Breath slowly.......
I know this is heresy, but I have a MP5 in 22lr when I want to spray ammo and play SAS guy. Maybe 5 years ago I might of said what the heck, but now, with all the other pistol carbine and 5.56 guns coming out in this form factor.... It's just hard to peel off the cash for something that I'd never have a real purpose for.
How old are you? I thought I was old.
And an P7M8...
Breath slowly.......
I know this is heresy, but I have a MP5 in 22lr when I want to spray ammo and play SAS guy. Maybe 5 years ago I might of said what the heck, but now, with all the other pistol carbine and 5.56 guns coming out in this form factor.... It's just hard to peel off the cash for something that I'd never have a real purpose for.
How old are you? I thought I was old.
Mentally I'm still the same kid who saw footage of the SAS hitting the Iranian Embassy, I'm the same kid who grew up reading Soldier of Fortune and the details of that SAS raid and I'm the same kid who read Peter Kokalis reviews of the MP5 and generally lusted after all things Oberndorf. Then they made a movie called Die Hard that was in fact a clever advertisement for the MP5, but that is another story.
I have all kinds of SMGs and lots and lots of 5.56 carbines. But like a first true love that you never really forget, the MP5 will always have a place in my fond memories in my safe no matter what.
Steve Shannon
03-29-20, 06:05
https://i.imgur.com/uDEqLDw.jpg
Inflation Calculator says the same item today should cost about $1620. Given the SP5 has added a factory short Navy barrel, paddle mag and some other improvements I'd say the going rate of $2,600 isn't a terrible deal.
By 1984 I had just purchased a 91 and a 93 and simply couldn't swing the price of a 94. But man this is the one I wanted.
I saw the same ad and ordered it direct from HK. I ordered a P7 as well. I’m pleased that I’ve still got both. Unfortunately I sold an HK93 to pay for supplies when I went back to college in 87 and I sold an FNC in 1989.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-20, 21:38
In 1984, what would it have taken to make this full auto? $200 tax stamp, but were the parts available from HK? I'm guessing not?
In 1984, what would it have taken to make this full auto? $200 tax stamp, but were the parts available from HK? I'm guessing not?
I think most, maybe all, transferable MP5's started out as HK94's. GCA68 would have limited transferable originals from Germany.
titsonritz
03-29-20, 22:56
What? No, "In a world of compromise some men don't"?
In 1984, what would it have taken to make this full auto? $200 tax stamp, but were the parts available from HK? I'm guessing not?
Couldn't have used HK parts anyway. To be legally converted to full auto, something had to be domestic. Either you had to register the receiver and then modify it, or you had to buy some other part such as a sear (which is actually a sear trip lever in most cases) or a trigger box group that was domestically registered and then it was simply a matter of a Form 1 or Form 4 transfer and about as expensive and complicated as doing a SBR today.
And that is because foreign machine guns were banned all the way back in 1968 as part of the 1968 gun control act, which is why all "transferable" MP5s are actually conversions that began life as HK94s. This is why everyone went crazy for the semi auto Uzis, HK 91, 93 and 94s as well as FN FAL and FNCs, that meant for the first time you could make domestic conversions.
Sadly most semi auto AK pattern rifles didn't show up until after the ban on registering domestic machine guns which is why "transferable" AK conversions cost almost twice as much as a "transferable" factory M-16. For much of the early 80s we only had Valmets which is why if you look closely at a lot of early 80s war movies, Valmets are standing in for AK rifles.
I think most, maybe all, transferable MP5's started out as HK94's. GCA68 would have limited transferable originals from Germany.
There were no pre68 examples so all factory MP5s were "pre 86 dealer samples" until the Hughes / Rodino ban and after that they were post 86 dealer samples which require a demo letter and must sell, surrender or destroy if you retire your license. If you are a FFL/SOT you don't need a "permission letter" to buy pre 86 samples and you can retain them if you retire your license, however they remain restricted and can only be transferred to a current FFL / SOT. They cannot be passed on via Form 5 to a lawful heir and cannot be transferred to anyone who is not a FFL / SOT.
TheAlsatian
03-30-20, 05:53
I bought an HK94A3 NIB in 1987 and it was around 900 dollars. I also bought a P8M13 and it was about the same price...pretty high at the time. I had just been promoted to 1LT and the 94 was a gift to myself..
In 1984, what would it have taken to make this full auto? $200 tax stamp, but were the parts available from HK? I'm guessing not?Conversion cost was about $250 at the time most places. Most were just FA, the parts were not available for paddle conversions like they are now.
I remember the 94's selling in gun shows for ~$450 new, and then they went up over time.
To put it in perspective, Rem 700s, Win M70's were mid 200s. I bought a Colt stainless Delta Elite for ~$450 not long after.
So it was like Split window Corvettes... Though it seems cheap now, at the time a transferable full auto 94 was relatively expensive.
So you could easily have $1k in a converted 94 with some mags, and it went up fairly quickly.
Had a co-worker who converted one, and still has it.
ramairthree
03-30-20, 12:02
If only I had money then.
The most I could swing in 1984 was saving up four hundred bucks so my uncle could buy the like new used SP1 for me I saw in a gun store in the big town with a movie theatre and McDonalds about 45 minutes away.
For reference, I was tossing hay, shoveling shit, clearing brush, pumping gas, changing tires, or waiting tables for five bucks an hour then and
The always breaking down 68 GTO I had cost me $800.
A few years later as an E4 on jump status my take home pay was about $800 a month. With a $200 cool car payment, $200 a month insurance, gas, and other basic expenses I was a paycheck to paycheck guy not able to buy those HKs, Steyr GBs, and other cool stuff that came up. The dream Rolex became a Seiko 6309. The dream Randall became a KaBar.
sundance435
03-30-20, 12:05
I saw the same ad and ordered it direct from HK. I ordered a P7 as well. I’m pleased that I’ve still got both. Unfortunately I sold an HK93 to pay for supplies when I went back to college in 87 and I sold an FNC in 1989.
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Ouch, I'd surely miss the FNC if I'd had one. I remember them still being around $1800-2000 when the ban ended in '04. I wish I'd picked one up then instead of the money I wasted on garbage ARs.
Steve Shannon
03-30-20, 16:01
Ouch, I'd surely miss the FNC if I'd had one. I remember them still being around $1800-2000 when the ban ended in '04. I wish I'd picked one up then instead of the money I wasted on garbage ARs.
I had mixed feelings for the FNC. I think the upper receiver was the best implementation of a twin lug long stroke gas system I’ve seen (Garland -> AK -> FNC lineage). The lower was unfortunately lacking. It had no bevel for the magazine, no fence around the magazine release, and no last round bolt hold open.
Being an engineer I wanted it to be perfect. [emoji19]
I have a SCAR 16 that makes up for those lower receiver shortcomings, but I still prefer the two lug long stroke upper of the FNC.
I would like to have a para style stock from my old FNC carbine on the SCAR 16 also. It was the best folding stock I’ve ever had. Rigid when extended and easy to use.
I had mixed feelings for the FNC. I think the upper receiver was the best implementation of a twin lug long stroke gas system I’ve seen (Garland -> AK -> FNC lineage). The lower was unfortunately lacking. It had no bevel for the magazine, no fence around the magazine release, and no last round bolt hold open.
Being an engineer I wanted it to be perfect. [emoji19]
I have a SCAR 16 that makes up for those lower receiver shortcomings, but I still prefer the two lug long stroke upper of the FNC.
I would like to have a para style stock from my old FNC carbine on the SCAR 16 also. It was the best folding stock I’ve ever had. Rigid when extended and easy to use.
Yeah, but the fact that S&H registered more FNC sears than there were host rifles to install them into meant FNC was a "best buy" for an entry level 5.56 carbine for a long time. I agree the FN para stock is probably the best one ever made, at least until the SIG 550 series came along. I still don't understand why they weren't able to carry over a FAL type bolt hold open that worked with NATO magazines.
I remember people crying about the trigger but I came in from HK rifles so I never noticed. And this was all before I even saw the movie Heat.
Steve Shannon
03-31-20, 16:08
Yeah, but the fact that S&H registered more FNC sears than there were host rifles to install them into meant FNC was a "best buy" for an entry level 5.56 carbine for a long time. I agree the FN para stock is probably the best one ever made, at least until the SIG 550 series came along. I still don't understand why they weren't able to carry over a FAL type bolt hold open that worked with NATO magazines.
I remember people crying about the trigger but I came in from HK rifles so I never noticed. And this was all before I even saw the movie Heat.
The trigger never bothered me, but I completely agree about the BHO. It’s like they did this great job with the upper and then ran short on budget and decided to just mill the lower from a slab of aluminum with no thought at all for user features.
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The trigger never bothered me, but I completely agree about the BHO. It’s like they did this great job with the upper and then ran short on budget and decided to just mill the lower from a slab of aluminum with no thought at all for user features.
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At least it didn't have an AR buffer tube. :sarcastic:
Steve Shannon
03-31-20, 19:25
At least it didn't have an AR buffer tube. :sarcastic:
Ha! Good point.
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militarymoron
03-31-20, 20:09
Mentally I'm still the same kid who saw footage of the SAS hitting the Iranian Embassy, I'm the same kid who grew up reading Soldier of Fortune and the details of that SAS raid and I'm the same kid who read Peter Kokalis reviews of the MP5 and generally lusted after all things Oberndorf.
We sound like the same kid. I was in England in the spring/summer of 1980 staying at my cousin's and saw the Iranian Embassy siege live. It left an indelible mark on me that has never been erased, and what kicked off my interest in all things SAS. Last year, when my wife, son and I were on our Europe vacation (good thing we didn't plan for it this year - that would have been a disaster); my wife was wondering why I just had to make a little detour/pilgrimage a couple of blocks from the museums...
https://i.imgur.com/1AOqV9K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kpOZQnl.jpg
We sound like the same kid. I was in England in the spring/summer of 1980 staying at my cousin's and saw the Iranian Embassy siege live. It left an indelible mark on me that has never been erased, and what kicked off my interest in all things SAS. Last year, when my wife, son and I were on our Europe vacation (good thing we didn't plan for it this year - that would have been a disaster); my wife was wondering why I just had to make a little detour/pilgrimage a couple of blocks from the museums...
https://i.imgur.com/1AOqV9K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kpOZQnl.jpg
Awesome. I've never been there but the details always fascinated me, especially when contrasted with our hostage crisis and Operation Eagle Claw. Of course US news talked about our "military debacle" and it was always somehow "our fault" and "doom and gloom", then I saw a blip about the Iranian Embassy raid in London. Even though it didn't fit the "everything is the fault of the west" preferred narrative they just couldn't resist those explosions in London and I bet most of them thought the shape charges were actually bomb detonations set off in a last desperate act by the hostage takers. The spent 5 minutes on "powerful explosions in London and men with machine guns" but maybe 5 seconds on the actual results of how many hostages were rescued.
Thankfully I got something of a more complete story when SOF covered the event a month or so later and after that I was hooked. I was already a kid who hummed the Ballad of the Green Berets so when I discovered the SAS that was it for me. Add MP5s to the mix and I was all in.
I've probably watched "6 Days" a dozen times. Nice to see they still haven't fixed those windows.
There were no pre68 examples so all factory MP5s were "pre 86 dealer samples" until the Hughes / Rodino ban and after that they were post 86 dealer samples which require a demo letter and must sell, surrender or destroy if you retire your license. If you are a FFL/SOT you don't need a "permission letter" to buy pre 86 samples and you can retain them if you retire your license, however they remain restricted and can only be transferred to a current FFL / SOT. They cannot be passed on via Form 5 to a lawful heir and cannot be transferred to anyone who is not a FFL / SOT.
There are rumored to be a group of pre-68 mp5s that went to an agency in TX. But said agency will not sell/trade them. These guns are reported to have exceptionally high round counts.
I had mixed feelings for the FNC. I think the upper receiver was the best implementation of a twin lug long stroke gas system I’ve seen (Garland -> AK -> FNC lineage). The lower was unfortunately lacking. It had no bevel for the magazine, no fence around the magazine release, and no last round bolt hold open.
Being an engineer I wanted it to be perfect. [emoji19]
I have a SCAR 16 that makes up for those lower receiver shortcomings, but I still prefer the two lug long stroke upper of the FNC.
I would like to have a para style stock from my old FNC carbine on the SCAR 16 also. It was the best folding stock I’ve ever had. Rigid when extended and easy to use.
I love my FNC. It’s a fullauto conversion with S&H sear. The FNC is a nice product improved AK. But I totally agree re lacking in areas. It’s odd that FN dropped the bolt catch on the FNC given that it’s predecessor the CAL has a bolt catch. The Swedes added it to the AK5 series. Eventually my FNC is getting a full Swedish AK5C makeover, and will have a bolt catch added.
There are rumored to be a group of pre-68 mp5s that went to an agency in TX. But said agency will not sell/trade them. These guns are reported to have exceptionally high round counts.
I'm not buying it. I don't think any MP5s were imported prior to the 68 ban. I've seen transferable, factory G3s but even those are few and far between and HK started importing the semi's in 62. But the world was so flooded with WWII vintage subguns, nobody was going to pay market price for a 9mm anything, even pre68 Uzi's are damn rare and Uzi's were top of the line grail guns of mythical properties at the time.
PD armories were still full of Thompsons and Grease Guns in 1968. They were also flooded with surplus and cheap M2's (both the SMG and carbine). If they were gonna pay full ticket for something new, it would have been a M-16. Also Reed Knight doesn't have one and if they actually existed, Reed Knight would have one, or at least Dan Shea and neither does. I know HKPro likes to discuss the possibility that some might have come in between 1966 and 1968 but it's like discussing how we might have been visited by aliens and they could have built the pyramids.
Until I see the evidence, all the evidence I've seen suggests otherwise.
I love my FNC. It’s a fullauto conversion with S&H sear. The FNC is a nice product improved AK. But I totally agree re lacking in areas. It’s odd that FN dropped the bolt catch on the FNC given that it’s predecessor the CAL has a bolt catch. The Swedes added it to the AK5 series. Eventually my FNC is getting a full Swedish AK5C makeover, and will have a bolt catch added.
Sweden simply needs to get on the ball and ship us some semi AK5s. If we can get SIGs, anything is possible. I never thought I'd see the day when we'd get SIGs...again.
I've probably watched "6 Days" a dozen times. Nice to see they still haven't fixed those windows.
I think the movie "6 Days" may have been my tipping point in deciding to buy this gun. I had been interested in an MP5/HK94 for a while. I wound up buying an HK94 and SBRing it in 2016. I had a paddle mag release fitted to it along with the 3-lug muzzle device. I really like the gun, as does everyone who shoots it.
I think the movie "6 Days" may have been my tipping point in deciding to buy this gun. I had been interested in an MP5/HK94 for a while. I wound up buying an HK94 and SBRing it in 2016. I had a paddle mag release fitted to it along with the 3-lug muzzle device. I really like the gun, as does everyone who shoots it.
I saw Die Hard (1988), which ironically was the greatest advertisement for the MP5 than anything HK had ever produced - even though there wasn't a genuine HK MP5 in the entire film (all conversions) and that was it. In 1990 I moved back to Florida and a small part of the reason was I knew I couldn't lawfully own any machine gun in the state of Iowa at the time and no matter what, there was going to be a MP5 in my life...and eventually every other firearm depicted in the film.
Only the film Heat would have a greater impact on my bank balance. I sometimes think I should get together with my friends and do a frame by frame "tribute film" to Die Hard. I think I've lost enough hair for the Bruce Willis role.
sundance435
04-01-20, 11:01
In 1990 I moved back to Florida and a small part of the reason was I knew I couldn't lawfully own any machine gun in the state of Iowa at the time and no matter what, there was going to be a MP5 in my life...and eventually every other firearm depicted in the film.
That changed, right? Iowa is now Class III? Looking for alternatives to my shithole state, but, damn, Iowa income taxes and vehicle registrations are high.
That changed, right? Iowa is now Class III? Looking for alternatives to my shithole state, but, damn, Iowa income taxes and vehicle registrations are high.
Sorta. They did everything EXCEPT machine guns. So suppressors, SBRs, SBSs and AOWs are good to go but you have to be a FFL / SOT to have machine guns. I'm hoping they will eventually become a FULL NFA state but I might have to be a SOT for the rest of my life.
Vehicle registration is slightly higher than it was in FL, but that was dramatically offset by how much more affordable car insurance is. Mine was half of what I was paying in FL and I even added an extra vehicle. Taken together cars are 30% cheaper in Iowa give or take.
State taxes are high and aggressive, but I consider it the cost of living in a state with mostly normal people. Cost of living probably completely offsets income tax demands.
militarymoron
04-01-20, 23:36
I've probably watched "6 Days" a dozen times. Nice to see they still haven't fixed those windows.
How many times have you watched 'Who Dares Wins' (released as 'The Final Option' in the US?). When I first saw that movie as a teenager hungry for good gun movies, I thought it was awesome. It was also the first time I had seen SAS in counter-terror gear featured in a movie.
For those who haven't seen it, it's a 1982 movie which starred Lewis Collins (who was one of my favourite actors from the late 70's/early 80's who coincidentally also played an ex-SAS guy in the TV show 'The Professionals').
Here's a clip of the final raid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUDe6saJFmM
While it's definitely 'Hollywood' for dramatic effect, it's still one of the coolest sequences I've seen in a 'gun film', especially one from the early 80's. Gotta love black-clad guys rappelling off helicopters onto a roof, flash-bangs and long bursts from MP5s!
'Who Dares Wins' had lots of MP5s with the straight mags, and was one of the films that made me fascinated with the MP5.
From the wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Dares_Wins_(film)
"Filming began in September 1981. The film had a number of advisers who had worked in the SAS which led to some concerns from the Ministry of Defence that the film could breach the Official Secrets Act.[1] However Lloyd says the ministry eventually gave its "tacit approval" to the film after two small changes to the story were made; "after that they opened the door quite widely and even provided three military helicopters", the producer said.[7]
According to the DVD commentary, the film was made with the help of the 22 SAS Regiment at Hereford, although their commanding officer Peter de la Billière had initially refused to help in a pre-production meeting with Euan Lloyd. Director Ian Sharp, who was hired due to Lloyd's liking of his direction in the TV series The Professionals, was invited to SAS headquarters at Stirling Lines where he met some of the troops who assaulted the Iranian embassy. With the co-operation of the SAS achieved, production moved ahead swiftly.
During one of his visits to Stirling Lines, Sharp had met a Fijian trooper who had a mishap during the Iranian embassy assault. The trooper told how he got caught up in his descent and his uniform caught fire due to the explosives used for their forced entry. Inspired by this, Sharp had a similar scene inserted.
The first scenes were shot in Portobello Road market in January 1982. The concert, speech and subsequent fight were staged at the Union Chapel in Islington, London. Skellen's house and the hostage taking was shot in Kynance Mews in South Kensington.[12]
When it came time to shoot the SAS assault on the US embassy, the crew had prepared the helicopters and stuntmen but the SAS offered to do the scene instead. Sharp accepted as he thought the look they gave could not be replicated by the crew. "
How many times have you watched 'Who Dares Wins' (released as 'The Final Option' in the US?). When I first saw that movie as a teenager hungry for good gun movies, I thought it was awesome. It was also the first time I had seen SAS in counter-terror gear featured in a movie.
For those who haven't seen it, it's a 1982 movie which starred Lewis Collins (who was one of my favourite actors from the late 70's/early 80's who coincidentally also played an ex-SAS guy in the TV show 'The Professionals').
Here's a clip of the final raid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUDe6saJFmM
While it's definitely 'Hollywood' for dramatic effect, it's still one of the coolest sequences I've seen in a 'gun film', especially one from the early 80's. Gotta love black-clad guys rappelling off helicopters onto a roof, flash-bangs and long bursts from MP5s!
'Who Dares Wins' had lots of MP5s with the straight mags, and was one of the films that made me fascinated with the MP5.
From the wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Dares_Wins_(film)
"Filming began in September 1981. The film had a number of advisers who had worked in the SAS which led to some concerns from the Ministry of Defence that the film could breach the Official Secrets Act.[1] However Lloyd says the ministry eventually gave its "tacit approval" to the film after two small changes to the story were made; "after that they opened the door quite widely and even provided three military helicopters", the producer said.[7]
According to the DVD commentary, the film was made with the help of the 22 SAS Regiment at Hereford, although their commanding officer Peter de la Billière had initially refused to help in a pre-production meeting with Euan Lloyd. Director Ian Sharp, who was hired due to Lloyd's liking of his direction in the TV series The Professionals, was invited to SAS headquarters at Stirling Lines where he met some of the troops who assaulted the Iranian embassy. With the co-operation of the SAS achieved, production moved ahead swiftly.
During one of his visits to Stirling Lines, Sharp had met a Fijian trooper who had a mishap during the Iranian embassy assault. The trooper told how he got caught up in his descent and his uniform caught fire due to the explosives used for their forced entry. Inspired by this, Sharp had a similar scene inserted.
The first scenes were shot in Portobello Road market in January 1982. The concert, speech and subsequent fight were staged at the Union Chapel in Islington, London. Skellen's house and the hostage taking was shot in Kynance Mews in South Kensington.[12]
When it came time to shoot the SAS assault on the US embassy, the crew had prepared the helicopters and stuntmen but the SAS offered to do the scene instead. Sharp accepted as he thought the look they gave could not be replicated by the crew. "
Probably a half dozen times. It can be a hard movie to find in the US. Read about it in SOF and eventually found a VHS copy sometime in the late 80s. When WinMX was still a thing I was able to get myself a copy and make a DVD burn. Looks like there has still never been a Region 1 DVD release.
I remember seeing the Final Option when it first came out at a mutlplex movie theater on Long Island, NY. Of course I later got a VHS copy.
The movie is available on DVD with 3 other films in a two DVD set with two movies on each DVD:
https://www.amazon.com/Action-Adventure-Marathon-Escaped-Treasure/dp/B00JJOY4RI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=final+option&qid=1585896890&s=movies-tv&sr=1-2
I guess I was a slow adopter of the HK94 since I did not get one until 2016. I was also a slow adopter of the Steyr AUG, since I did not get one until 2007. I ultimately wound up with an A2 AUG model. I ran the AUG in a number of carbine classes including those run by pat Rogers and Larry Vickers.
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