View Full Version : BCM - Manufacturer or Assembler
I bought a new Recce 16 MCMR recently. Really impressive rifle. Love it.
I saw a few threads over the years in which some folks have stated, as if it were a well known fact, that BCM is a mere retailer and assembler, that they don't make their own components. That is certainly not what I thought.
I think indeed they do make from scratch, or at least design and spec to other fabricators, most of the key parts. They also test for QC and spec all key pieces. The furniture and MCMR alone are all clearly proprietary. And the bcg, barrel seem highly spec'd and tested by BCM. I don't care who extruded the springs and pins. Not sure I care who made the buffer, for instance.
So I emailed BCM yesterday and simply asked what parts in this gun they made. They got back to me very quickly. They wouldn't say precisely. Not sure why they just won't say, but I can respect that the gun is very nicely made, and I trust the real shooters who trust BCM.
Basically they say they design and produce a great many things, though they will not divulge the provenance of every single piece in the gun, regarding that as a trade secret. Fair enough.
I can live with that. The gun is sweet, and for $1350 or so, it's everything I would want.
BCM is a mid tier system builder that assemble completed rifles or sell components build to their spec. BCM doesn't make their own barrels. Either sourced from Criterion and/ or maybe FN.
Love my BCM regardless and don't really care where all parts came from. If anything, it is BCM's quality control and meticulous attention to detail. Properly aligned handguard and castle nut staking. That being said, an experienced DIY builder can probably accomplished the same at lower price point.
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Personally, I think they are continuing to increase their in house production capabilities.
You don't need this much room for shipping and assembling:
61510
titsonritz
04-04-20, 02:25
What does it matter if what they're are doing is doing it right?
Personally, I think they are continuing to increase their in house production capabilities.
You don't need this much room for shipping and assembling:
61510
Are they still in that building? I found a listing for it that was 1 1/2 years old.
I don't know what the technical definition and criteria are for "manufacturer". I don't know that it matters much, given all that goes into a BCM product both visible and not. If making all or most of your own stuff from scratch was it, few people in most industries would meet it.
I just received one of these BCM rifles from G&R Tactical: https://www.gandrtactical.com/BCM-MK2-RECCE-16-MCMR-15-MLOK-GOVT_p_825.html. Easy process, fast ship, arrived as ordered. I opened the box, mounted an optic, threw some lube on it, and am at about 1000 rounds of several types of ammo without malfunction. The list of guns I expect that from is pretty short.
wetidlerjr
04-04-20, 08:40
I don't know what the technical definition and criteria are for "manufacturer". I don't know that it matters much, given all that goes into a BCM product both visible and not. If making all or most of your own stuff from scratch was it, few people in most industries would meet it.
That's the "long and short" of it. Producing everything in house in any industry is almost impossible today.
That being said, an experienced DIY builder can probably accomplished the same at lower price point.
I’m not convinced thats true. I’ve assembled lots of rifles at this point, and by the time I count up all the parts, plus shipping on some of them, I’m past BCM pricing territory. I get a lot of stuff from the EE to keep that down. Add in tools, and time, and the notion that “building” is cheaper is mostly insurgent math. I think a lot of people lie to themselves. And a lot of people assemble garbage.
I think that with a business account, and the economy of larger orders, it is possible for a company to assemble a rifle for the same price as I can, or less, and still have room for a modest profit, or at least to pay the guys for their work.
They wouldn't say precisely. Not sure why they just won't say...
You obviously aren't into produce creation, manufacturing, or the business of selling things. It's not nearly as simple as that.
That being said, an experienced DIY builder can probably accomplished the same at lower price point.
It might be close, but not equivalent. You lack the proprietary technical and test data used in component selection and combination, the stuff that separates pros from others. Also, "experienced DIY builder" more often than not...isn't...for purposes of this discussion. (See also: "experienced DIY reloader")
Basically they say they design and produce a great many things and yet they will not divulge the provenance of every single piece in the gun, regarding that as a trade secret.
Here is something to think about. The internet has moved things out of the scope of generic information, and into the realm of highly detailed info. That information may seem like a legitimate source of intel, but the problem is that it is not. At least not in the context we are talking about here.
You commented that over the past few years you have seen threads commenting about BCM being an assembler. Over the years, that is not a totally ignorant comment to have been made. It is my understanding that BCM started by specing out the components needed for their AR15 platform, and using the vendors which would be able to produce the items to the specs which they listed.
HOWEVER, at a certain point, BCM began to take the manufacturing from outside sources, and with the CNC machines BCM purchased, took those operations in house. Where we get into question, and why many MFGs don't want to lock things down, is if they are able to keep supply lines open with other MFGs. For example, lets say for sake of argument that BCM produced all its own BCGs, and is able to supply a portion of the aftermarket crowd. If all of a sudden, there is a supply issue with the appropriate steels, a virus which cripples transportation, or something similar, BCM may not be able to manufacture everything needed, and may trade or purchase items from another vendor who is able to meet their criteria. If that happens, its possible that a customer gets a Colt bolt instead of a BCM bolt. This would make BCM liable for not carrying through with the information they supply their customers (even though it changed nothing).
I have a friend who makes barrels, or at times has barrels made to his specs. Do I care which barrel I get from him? No, because the end result is the same. However, if he stated he made all his own barrels in house, he would be lying. If he said he only used (fill in the blank), he would again be lying. So he protects his information and produced high quality barrels without worry.
BCM DOES manufacturer a large portion of their items in house, but it certainly is not everything, nor would it make sense if they did.
ExplorinInTheWoods
04-04-20, 11:36
They design a lot of the stuff and have VLTOR make some of it like spikes has seekins make their rails. Noveske has SMOS receivers. Triarc has stuff made for them. I think it comes down to who designed it being more important. Not everyone has the machinery for this stuff. Faxon was making slides for other people before their own. LaRue makes most stuff in house.
It might be close, but not equivalent. You lack the proprietary technical and test data used in component selection and combination, the stuff that separates pros from others. Also, "experienced DIY builder" more often than not...isn't...for purposes of this discussion. (See also: "experienced DIY reloader")
Plus the tools to properly measure and gauge every component like Bcm does will cost you many times more than the average rifle.
It might be close, but not equivalent. You lack the proprietary technical and test data used in component selection and combination, the stuff that separates pros from others. Also, "experienced DIY builder" more often than not...isn't...for purposes of this discussion. (See also: "experienced DIY reloader")Essentially agree. Quality control is what I don't mind paying extra for BCM.
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If you make shit AR parts “in house”
Does it matter?
If you outsource AR parts from known quality suppliers and have a system to gauge said quality.
Does it matter?
I can think of a company who makes almost 100% of it in house and they make a fine AR
Personally, I think they are continuing to increase their in house production capabilities.
You don't need this much room for shipping and assembling:
61510
There is a larger machine and tool in New Berlin, WI that handles certain things for BCM, Midwest Industries and ADM (American Defense Manufacturing) as far as I understand it. I'm not up on how it all works, I but this was information given to me by an ADM rep at a LGS with personal relationships with BCM and ADM. I have a feeling that if you call them, they'll talk to you about it.
There is a larger machine and tool in New Berlin, WI that handles certain things for BCM, Midwest Industries and ADM (American Defense Manufacturing) as far as I understand it. I'm not up on how it all works, I but this was information given to me by an ADM rep at a LGS with personal relationships with BCM and ADM. I have a feeling that if you call them, they'll talk to you about it.
WS Machine & Tool?
WS Machine & Tool?
I don't know. I would talk to BCM
SeriousStudent
04-04-20, 19:44
Paul and team make good stuff. My two favorite AR's are both BCM. One of my best friends will hopefully be graduating soon from a local police academy.
His graduation present? A BCM carbine and a set of Danner boots.
That's what I think of BCM. I trust my life and the lives of my best friends to their gear.
Good posts in this thread...I really am itching for another BCM upper, probably go with the new design that came out..even though most of mine are the plain jane mid length
Belmont31R
04-04-20, 20:15
There isn't a single AR company out there that makes everything 100% in house.
Even if they source from the same company another as another manufacturer doesn't mean the parts are ordered to the same spec or how they handle the parts once received. Manufacturing is very nuanced in that the raw material suppliers or sub part suppliers all make stuff to different specs, and the recipient has to have an agreement on how reject lots are handled. Where I work we have QC just for incoming raw materials from within our own company and from external sources.
You don't know how their employees are trained or what the internal controls are for sending products out. You don't know the tools they have to assemble stuff or how experienced those people are. Just from my own experience its about like any other job. 20% really care and make the job their own personal mission to accomplish. The other 80% are there for a paycheck and don't care about knowingly sending out iffy product.
As for home assemblers or gun store assemblers good luck. Theres very few people I'd trust to put together a firearm. When I bought my last SR15 the owner of the FFL I did the transfer through tried to tell me he could build the same gun for $1000 less and I just had to brush it off and laugh to myself. Of course he sells a bunch of middle to lower tier products and was acting like I got shafted.
Plus the tools to properly measure and gauge every component like Bcm does will cost you many times more than the average rifle.
The average homebuilder does close to zero of this. They might check headspace or gas port diameter. Many just chuck it in a vice and start torquing. Speaking of which, a shocking amount don’t even own a torque wrench.
BCM produces a consistent product, OTOH.
Paul and team make good stuff. My two favorite AR's are both BCM. One of my best friends will hopefully be graduating soon from a local police academy.
His graduation present? A BCM carbine and a set of Danner boots.
That's what I think of BCM. I trust my life and the lives of my best friends to their gear.
Dude. Did I tell you that I’m graduating something soon?
There isn't a single AR company out there that makes everything 100% in house.
Even if they source from the same company another as another manufacturer doesn't mean the parts are ordered to the same spec or how they handle the parts once received. Manufacturing is very nuanced in that the raw material suppliers or sub part suppliers all make stuff to different specs, and the recipient has to have an agreement on how reject lots are handled. Where I work we have QC just for incoming raw materials from within our own company and from external sources.
You don't know how their employees are trained or what the internal controls are for sending products out. You don't know the tools they have to assemble stuff or how experienced those people are. Just from my own experience its about like any other job. 20% really care and make the job their own personal mission to accomplish. The other 80% are there for a paycheck and don't care about knowingly sending out iffy product.
As for home assemblers or gun store assemblers good luck. Theres very few people I'd trust to put together a firearm. When I bought my last SR15 the owner of the FFL I did the transfer through tried to tell me he could build the same gun for $1000 less and I just had to brush it off and laugh to myself. Of course he sells a bunch of middle to lower tier products and was acting like I got shafted.
It always amazes me how many years a person can spend in and industry, and still no nothing about it. We have guys with 40 years operating the same machine.
Forty. Years. And they dont know whats going on. Punch in. Punch out. Paycheck.
Nothing wrong with it, just something to keep in mind when people throw out “years of experience” as some kind of quantifier for knowledge.
As for your comments on manufacturing- spot on. People think same factory=same product. Thats not how it works, assuming the company is run decently.
Doing a lot of stuff in-house doesnt make financial sense.
I bought the Recce MCMR because it seemed to me the best in class for the price point. I do not believe much money would be saved by homebrewing. And more importantly, I know the skill and processes BCM has in designing, specing, sourcing, and above all QCing. I want this thing to work like a champ, at first and until the end.
BCM clearly has the capacity to do all things the typical guy who builds a.r.'s doesn't have. Frankly, I don't even think my friend Andrew Barnes makes as good a rifle, and he makes virtually every piece of his guns on his machines at Barnes Precision. Not knocking him, either.
I was merely curious how much they fabricated in house, because I heard Sootch say they make every part in a review video, and read some guys on bARFCom say otherwise. There are still guys, and they may be dipshits, who say BCM just assembles guns.
What is obvious, Rhino, is that this not the case.
The first question should be, "do they know what they're doing?"
The distinction between manufacturer and assembler is just insulting.
The first question should be, "do they know what they're doing?"
The distinction between manufacturer and assembler is just insulting.
There are two major advantages for the manufacturer:
- they can innovate faster. If a company has their own production facilities they can prototype and improve product faster in house as well as produce new products.
- they can adjust their processes/qc faster to issues to fix/prevent them in the future. One good example here was LMT with the firing pins failing in New Zealand (or Australia) rifles. Most likely they got a bad batch from their supplier.
I don't think it's realistic or efficient for any company to run and produce everything in house from the scale, economy, facilities, people, knowledge, and etc. standpoints. Even established companies with large manufacturing capabilities like Colt, LMT, S&W outsource a lot of their parts.
Everyone can produce a lemon, it's either a mistake or a pattern. What matters is, if it's a systemic issue how quickly a company is willing to fix it. Some companies are very good at it, others don't particularly care.
I think assembly & exit QC is more important than the parts quality. This is not to say parts quality won't matter. You can assemble a good working gun from about average parts (i.e. not failed or rejects), but if you don't know what you're doing you won't build a functioning rifle with a good quality parts.
And to be sure, while BCG, barrel and fcg are essential, and I believe BCM has its own made either in or out of their building, the things like charging handles, rails, grips, and so forth that BCM designs are among the best in the industry. They just work great. Look great. Function great.
Yaah, well is BCM now guaranteeing their lowers will accept Gen 3 PMAG's? That whole debacle with them playing the mil-spec card kind of put me off them.
Yaah, well is BCM now guaranteeing their lowers will accept Gen 3 PMAG's? That whole debacle with them playing the mil-spec card kind of put me off them.
I don't get how BCM (or others) can call their AR15 lowers mil-spec in the first place. The trigger pocket is not dimensionally mil-spec and semi auto only triggers aren't either.
I like to build my own rifles. But I’m not under the delusion that my builds are of the same quality as a factory BCM rifle. I don’t have all the gauges to QC every part before assembly, but I generally choose parts from companies that do. Instructor Chad from SOTAR will show you what you need to do to insure the components in your builds are up to par:
https://youtu.be/kADQX_xmrSY
Watch his videos and even the most experienced builders will realize they are just amateurs.
Yaah, well is BCM now guaranteeing their lowers will accept Gen 3 PMAG's? That whole debacle with them playing the mil-spec card kind of put me off them.Gen 2 and 3 pmags work flawlessly on my BCM lower.
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The first question should be, "do they know what they're doing?"
The distinction between manufacturer and assembler is just insulting.
I already knew they knew what they were doing. My asking what parts they make was my fifth question. First, was "does BCM know what they're doing" Second was, "do I like this model?" Third was, "what else is comparable?" Fourth was, "can I do better for $1,349?"
Fifth was, 'Now that I already paid money for it, I wonder how it came together?"
Hardly insulting.
And they gave a fair and timely answer.
...I think assembly & exit QC is more important than the parts quality...
All my years of experience building & maintaining aircraft refutes this. If given subpar parts, it doesn't matter how good quality control of the technician assembling or reassembling an aircraft is. The aircraft will have subpar parts. If the parts impact safety of flight, the aircraft unairworthy. For example, if a new magneto (which generates and distributes electricity to the spark plugs) isn't assembled correctly, it doesn't matter how skilled and dedicated the technician installing it is. The engine won't run correctly and the aircraft is unairworthy.
You cannot choose between quality parts and quality assembly processes. You have to have both. A skilled and dedicated assembler can't make an AR function correctly if given an out of spec barrel, weak extractor spring, carbine weight buffer or bolt that's not properly heat treated & stress relieved.
In reality, the least important factor in quality control is quality assurance (what you call "exit quality control") because by the time the product is finished and submitted for final inspection, all opportunities for quality control has passed. All that can be done is to assure all quality control processes have been followed during manufacture.
Here is something to think about. The internet has moved things out of the scope of generic information, and into the realm of highly detailed info. That information may seem like a legitimate source of intel, but the problem is that it is not. At least not in the context we are talking about here.
You commented that over the past few years you have seen threads commenting about BCM being an assembler. Over the years, that is not a totally ignorant comment to have been made. It is my understanding that BCM started by specing out the components needed for their AR15 platform, and using the vendors which would be able to produce the items to the specs which they listed.
HOWEVER, at a certain point, BCM began to take the manufacturing from outside sources, and with the CNC machines BCM purchased, took those operations in house. Where we get into question, and why many MFGs don't want to lock things down, is if they are able to keep supply lines open with other MFGs. For example, lets say for sake of argument that BCM produced all its own BCGs, and is able to supply a portion of the aftermarket crowd. If all of a sudden, there is a supply issue with the appropriate steels, a virus which cripples transportation, or something similar, BCM may not be able to manufacture everything needed, and may trade or purchase items from another vendor who is able to meet their criteria. If that happens, its possible that a customer gets a Colt bolt instead of a BCM bolt. This would make BCM liable for not carrying through with the information they supply their customers (even though it changed nothing).
I have a friend who makes barrels, or at times has barrels made to his specs. Do I care which barrel I get from him? No, because the end result is the same. However, if he stated he made all his own barrels in house, he would be lying. If he said he only used (fill in the blank), he would again be lying. So he protects his information and produced high quality barrels without worry.
BCM DOES manufacturer a large portion of their items in house, but it certainly is not everything, nor would it make sense if they did.
A little late to this thread, but just wanted to confirm, generally, what Stick said here.
I work for a large manufacturer (not ARs or firearms). Sometimes, for various reasons, we will sub out component items or even final assemblies that we absolutely have the capability and available capacity to make.
Nothing out of the ordinary in manufacturing.
I have purchased many items from BCM, to include barrels, uppers, complete uppers, bcg’s, charging handles, etc; never was able to buy a lower from them, though. Never had any issues with any of their products and will continue to buy from them without hesitation. Are they manufacturers or assemblers? Who cares, as long as they stand by their products and and churn out a good product
Gen 2 and 3 pmags work flawlessly on my BCM lower.
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PMags work perfectly in my BCM Recce. Drop free. Function. Good to go.
This gun is fabulous. And I think a great value for all I want, that I can 100% trust, and that I cannot improve upon for the general purposes I have in mind.
Yaah, well is BCM now guaranteeing their lowers will accept Gen 3 PMAG's? That whole debacle with them playing the mil-spec card kind of put me off them.
No they are not but it does appear that they have started to replace lowers that don’t. So that’s good news. They are still blaming magpul.
Just saw one the other day in a Facebook group I’m in that was no go with 5+ gen 3 pmags. BCM sent the owner an RMA, I’m interested if they replace it. Guy just bought the rifle. Bummer thing to happen in the middle of a pandemic.
No they are not but it does appear that they have started to replace lowers that don’t. So that’s good news. They are still blaming magpul.
Just saw one the other day in a Facebook group I’m in that was no go with 5+ gen 3 pmags. BCM sent the owner an RMA, I’m interested if they replace it. Guy just bought the rifle. Bummer thing to happen in the middle of a pandemic.
Especially if they are first time buyer and don't have backup rifles. Most of us here have back ups for backs ups.
Especially if they are first time buyer and don't have backup rifles. Most of us here have back ups for backs ups.
He was a first time buyer and was not going to send back to BCM incase he needed it. Worried about protecting his wife and 3 little kids. He was lucky enough to barrow a lower from a buddy so he could send it back for RMA.
When I started building years ago I felt I could build better rifles than many I could buy. Over the years that changed. The last rifle I bought was a factory Colt CCU from Grant. Even with a $1200.00 starting point by the time I add what I wanted in the way of triggers, sights, slings, optics, weapon lights, charging handles, selectors, etc., etc, I still end up around three grand.
I started by buying lots of BCM and Noveske components, then their complete uppers, and the price never seemed to change a lot. I'm still carrying as my main carbine purposely built BCM 14.5 LW and it's my go to for anything other then long range precision. My SBR's are there but really more of a range toy unless the whole world went upside down.
I considered myself a serious builder and have attended three armorer classes over the years. I've got more in specialty tools than most AR's cost. Now it's more of a hobby for friends and co workers. You can build fine rifles but the cost isn't the reason, it's the satisfaction of getting exactly what you want without drawers full of take off parts. But without the training, experience and proper tools you may get a good rifle but you may not. YMMV.
When I started building years ago I felt I could build better rifles than many I could buy. Over the years that changed. The last rifle I bought was a factory Colt CCU from Grant. Even with a $1200.00 starting point by the time I add what I wanted in the way of triggers, sights, slings, optics, weapon lights, charging handles, selectors, etc., etc, I still end up around three grand.
I started by buying lots of BCM and Noveske components, then their complete uppers, and the price never seemed to change a lot. I'm still carrying as my main carbine purposely built BCM 14.5 LW and it's my go to for anything other then long range precision. My SBR's are there but really more of a range toy unless the whole world went upside down.
I considered myself a serious builder and have attended three armorer classes over the years. I've got more in specialty tools than most AR's cost. Now it's more of a hobby for friends and co workers. You can build fine rifles but the cost isn't the reason, it's the satisfaction of getting exactly what you want without drawers full of take off parts. But without the training, experience and proper tools you may get a good rifle but you may not. YMMV.
The knowledge you gain/learn along the way is also rewarding and its good to have a skilled/trusted armor in a community of shooters.
For me personally, it doesn't matter. BCM sells me good stuff (when it's in stock). Take my money!
Professionally, it's different, as other people have pointed out. My company buys servers, by the rack (or dozens of racks) from our vendors. For that level of a purchase, we do get down in the nitty-gritty for the parts and testing that goes into those servers. Testing both on our side and the vendor side, in terms of memory, hard drives, solid state drives etc etc.
While the vendors like to obfuscate an HDD or SSD behind their own part number (and then use 3-4 different manufacturers to fulfill that part #), our own testing and qualification process doesn't like that. When I'm buying a rack of servers, with over 200 drives per rack, and I want 20 racks, I can get picky about the drives I want in those suckers.
We do this to minimize the risk of stuff not working when it lands in the datacenter.
Personally, I like to minimize the risk of stuff not working when I go to the range. So BCM and LMT it is.
Mr McSimon
04-10-20, 18:51
I don't know how much of their business model is manufacturing or how much assembly is, parts of both it sounds like, but their customer service remains top notch in my experience. They may have some misses here and there, but I recently messed up the install of a Dead Air Keymo suppressor mount on my 9" BCM .300 BO upper, as my can wasn't concentric after my work. I was afraid maybe I messed up the threads because I KNOW I over tightened it a little bit, so I contacted them to figure out the best fix. They said send the upper in to let them have a look, after about 2 weeks I got the upper back with the flash hider re-installed properly, and now the can mounts perfectly. They didn't charge me a dime, not even for return shipping, for something that wasn't their mistake nor really their problem. +Rep, I'll buy from them again if I have the excuse.
I know it’ll be an unpopular opinion on here but I think BCM is one of the most overrated AR15 manufacturers out there. They have a great marketing department though, I’ll give them that.
I was thinking more like Noveske
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All BCM parts I've purchased, have been a consistent quality. In my experience, BCM through the years has maintained its reputation for high quality. I haven't heard of any massive recalls or batch parts breakages.
BCM representatives and Paul personally, I believe, had been active previously on this forum with the comments and very transparent regarding the processes and technical details. Unfortunately, this is not the case anymore. I was very appreciative of the information which was provided. I found it to be very interesting and useful just for general knowledge.
In my opinion BCM products, quality control, and assembly are well above industry average. There are some products which might not fit your particular purpose, preference, use, price point, or esthetics. Or you might not like the marketing, company policy, or its representatives. But the same can be said about any other company out there.
I've been pleasantly surprised recently with BCM's customer service - they've always answered questions promptly, unlike a few years back when they used to ignore emails/calls.
What type of marketing does BCM do? I haven't seen any marketing or advertising from them in long time.
What type of marketing does BCM do? I haven't seen any marketing or advertising from them in long time.
It seems like its less prevalent but they still advertise their gunfighting team, and I hear ads on Ben Shapiro and the daily wire podcasts still.
BCM is smart about their marketing. They have someone do cool pictures on social media, advertise on the quintessential right wing media outlet (Daily Wire), do videos of operators operating operatively with their operator-level gear, and also provide equipment to/do collaborations with respected trainers and media personalities, while then interviewing those trainers and personalities.
Of course, they also market in such places as...this very website.
I don't know how much of their business model is manufacturing or how much assembly is, parts of both it sounds like, but their customer service remains top notch in my experience. They may have some misses here and there, but I recently messed up the install of a Dead Air Keymo suppressor mount on my 9" BCM .300 BO upper, as my can wasn't concentric after my work. I was afraid maybe I messed up the threads because I KNOW I over tightened it a little bit, so I contacted them to figure out the best fix. They said send the upper in to let them have a look, after about 2 weeks I got the upper back with the flash hider re-installed properly, and now the can mounts perfectly. They didn't charge me a dime, not even for return shipping, for something that wasn't their mistake nor really their problem. +Rep, I'll buy from them again if I have the excuse.
That is great customer service.
Several years ago there was a guy who posted a litany of what he perceived as imperfections with virtually every BCM product he had purchased. IIRC he sent virtually everything he ordered back for repair or replacement, and was argumentative when they told him things were within their spec. So, finally they tell him 'we can't satisfy you, in the future you need to buy from one of our competitors.'
They fired him as a customer. Some people may disagree, but I felt that was perfectly within their right, and warranted.
For those who aren't in a 'business', marketing is how you sell stuff to civilians.
Over-rated, Under-rated, who gives a $hit.
The reason you don't see as much civilian advertising from Colt, FN, and KAC is they have / had the sweet milk of the Gov't teat to suckle on.
Spend your money how you see fit, whether it is BCM, Colt, Delton, Shrubmaster, FN, KAC, etc, etc. They all 'outsource' production in some form or fashion.
Cincinnatus15
04-11-20, 15:27
Sooo BCM's are still GTG lol?
Sooo BCM's are still GTG lol?This has turned into a frog lube, Crisco/fire clean, snake oil thread..[emoji38]. If you can afford it, just buy what makes you happy regardless of what the guy at next lane thinks...
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I know it’ll be an unpopular opinion on here but I think BCM is one of the most overrated AR15 manufacturers out there. They have a great marketing department though, I’ll give them that.
I don’t think anyone can tell you that your opinion is wrong. You don’t offer anything to back it up, and we have no knowledge of who you are or what your knowledge base is, however, you most certainly are entitled to your opinion.
If you care to mention why you feel that way, it might make a little more sense on both sides. If not, I hope you have a good Easter.
I’ve rocked BCM since 2010, after listening to Pat Rogers advice and the merits of “filthy 14” I’m sold. BCM has a copy of the technical data sheet for the M4, as long as their vendors are making it to the spec, it’s good by me. It’s not like they are running their own foundry...so where do you draw the line between “manufacturing and assembling”....only company I know that makes it soup to nuts is Rolex.....
Larry Vickers posted some type of BCM buffer on Instagram a day or so ago. I wonder if it is just the buffer or the spring and tube as well.
I don’t think anyone can tell you that your opinion is wrong. You don’t offer anything to back it up, and we have no knowledge of who you are or what your knowledge base is, however, you most certainly are entitled to your opinion.
If you care to mention why you feel that way, it might make a little more sense on both sides. If not, I hope you have a good Easter.
Sure, I don’t mind to explain for context and clarity sake. I’ll preface by saying that I never had any reliability issues with my BCM rifles so in that aspect I have no complaints. My issues lie with the sub-par accuracy of two separate BCM BFH uppers I had and a sour experience with customer service. The accuracy issues seem to be one of the main complaints I have read about BCM’s rifles and mine was no different. Both of the uppers I had consistently shot around 6-7 MOA. I understand these are fighting rifles but I just felt for the price, they should perform better than that. A good friend of mine had similar performance from his BCM rifle. In fact, his particular rifle began to keyhole during a recent carbine class we were both in with less than 1,500 rounds through the barrel. As for my customer service experience, I had reached out to BCM because the buffer in my rifle was getting marred up. They agreed to send me a shipping label and take a look at the rifle. I waited a week or two and never received a shipping label. When I contacted their customer service again to tell them I hadn’t received a shipping label their response was basically “Well, we sent one out. Not sure what happened. Sorry.” No offer to send another label or anything. I just found their response to that pretty poor and I’m not quite sure why they didn’t offer to just resend another shipping label for me. In closing, I just want to reiterate that I don’t think BCM makes junk and I would trust my life to one of their rifles if need be but with so many other good options out there I, personally, would rather go with another company.
If not, I hope you have a good Easter.
Not savage, but, hope you and the family have a great day celebrating the Risen Lord.
Best Wishes.
Madmartigan
04-12-20, 07:25
I have 4 BCM upper's 2014 and 2016 purchases.. all of them shoot to my liking.. however.. because of one of their newest barrels a 16" socom having serious issues, I wouldn't buy again.. 4-5moa is not "in spec" for me, did my 300rds break-in, which I sold it off for dirt cheap. IMHO because of their popularity their QC is hit and miss some people get good barrels some people get 4 moa barrels, the inconsistency is troubling. To OP and everyone contributing I do suspect non-chf BCM barrels come from criterion.. how did I come to this theory you say? Criterion sells BCM bolts.. they are also one of the only manufactures that makes 410ss barrels.. they are literally 30 min's away(Hartland to Germantown WI) from BCM manufacturing HQ.. how's that for logistics.. literally little to no shipping cost.. dunno which one of them came first but I would surmise that whoever came second struck up a deal and found a cozy spot nearby to much of a total coincidence..
pointblank4445
04-12-20, 09:16
I have 4 BCM upper's 2014 and 2016 purchases.. all of them shoot to my liking.. however.. because of one of their newest barrels a 16" socom having serious issues, I wouldn't buy again.. 4-5moa is not "in spec" for me, did my 300rds break-in, which I sold it off for dirt cheap. IMHO because of their popularity their QC is hit and miss some people get good barrels some people get 4 moa barrels, the inconsistency is troubling. To OP and everyone contributing I do suspect non-chf BCM barrels come from criterion.. how did I come to this theory you say? Criterion sells BCM bolts.. they are also one of the only manufactures that makes 410ss barrels.. they are literally 30 min's away(Hartland to Germantown WI) from BCM manufacturing HQ.. how's that for logistics.. literally little to no shipping cost.. dunno which one of them came first but I would surmise that whoever came second struck up a deal and found a cozy spot nearby to much of a total coincidence..
While that's probably a fair conclusion, that area IS where a ton of big-name barrel makers are. Krieger, Bartlein, Obermeyer, Broughton, Brux...all in a very small area. Not by coincidence.
I have to concur with them being over rated.
I purchased a complete BCM 16" upper with a VTAC free float tube. The first thing I noticed was that the VTAC fore end was so loose I could twist it on the upper with my hands. Not a big deal to tighten it, just 2 Allen head bolts but I did expect more attention to detail from a company with BCM’s reputation.
Five shot groups from a bench rest at 100 yards were 3+ inches. Even with premium ammo. I am an experienced shooter and had several other AR’s from Colt, LMT, RRA, etc. This was the only one that would not group in the vicinity of 1 moa. Yes, I tried swapping optics and all the obvious stuff. I emailed BCM twice and got no response.
At about 2K rounds the charging handle broke.
Over the years, accuracy has improved. It’s now about a 2.25" gun. This is acceptable, but I expected better.
I think that some of the complaints, such as the one above, can be attributed to the fact that BCM has grown, and there are generally more complaints with more volume.
I have to concur with them being over rated.
At about 2K rounds the charging handle broke.
I don't know about overrated in general. However, the BCM love permeates here, so the view is probably skewed in this little slice of the world.
About the charging handle, which one did you spec when ordered, and how did it fail?
The reason I ask is that I don't use mine a whole bunch. Generally, on my range rifles, I run the CH to initially load and then to unload at the end of the trip. I occasionally run through immediate action drills, and less often run through the whole gamut of remediation drills, but certainly not every range trip. Is your experience different?
Also, did you contact BCM?
Not trying to be a jerk, or a fan boi, just want to know the specifics.
It wasn’t the Gunfighter, it was just a basic charging handle. It broke in two pieces, near the front.
I use it for loading and malfunction drills as you described. I’m not particularly hard on them.
I did not bother trying to contact BCM again. 1. If they didn’t want to converse about a real issue, the accuracy, they weren’t going to address this. 2. It was just a charging handle. I dropped in a spare and continued on.
I recently bought a bcm mod 4b ch I like it better then the radian raptor i have, just bought a bcm lpk with the polished nickel teflon fcg so we will see how it is. I have a alg in one of my rifles and a cmc drop in in another.
vicious_cb
04-12-20, 23:27
It wasn’t the Gunfighter, it was just a basic charging handle. It broke in two pieces, near the front.
I use it for loading and malfunction drills as you described. I’m not particularly hard on them.
I did not bother trying to contact BCM again. 1. If they didn’t want to converse about a real issue, the accuracy, they weren’t going to address this. 2. It was just a charging handle. I dropped in a spare and continued on.
It was probably a regular mil-spec OEM charging handle. If it was a gunfighter I wouldn't believe you unless you had pics.
As companies grow. things get missed. I know because ive worked this industry for a decade. BCM has some of the best QC because Paul made sure they had the tools to do it. Even at a smaller level, the company I worked for tried to check everything. Youd be surprised at the anomalies that occur even when everything passes QC but get test fired. Things break and barrels can be lemons but theres often times no way to tell until high round counts are put through them. IE: average test fire is 7-9 rds per the manual.
It wasn’t the Gunfighter, it was just a basic charging handle. It broke in two pieces, near the front.
I use it for loading and malfunction drills as you described. I’m not particularly hard on them.
I did not bother trying to contact BCM again. 1. If they didn’t want to converse about a real issue, the accuracy, they weren’t going to address this. 2. It was just a charging handle. I dropped in a spare and continued on.
Interesting. I would have contacted them for everything, I have reached out to everyone from BCM, DD, Aero, Palmetto, ADM, ALG, Sionics and probably more. I've had great experience with pretty much everyone as far as customer service or general questions. I might be more of a BCM fanboy then most considering that they are about an hour down the road, but I do understand certain aspects. For starters I only have 2 BCM uppers, one is a 20" Complete upper, that I have attempted to clone my service rifle, although that thing is very accurate, I'm sitting around 1.5 MOA all day with that gun. My BCM 16" BFH Enhanced light weight is a 2+ MOA gun, having said that. I notice more flyers, or the 4th or 5th round of a 5 rd shot group open up the hotter the barrel gets. Having said all of that, my go to rifles, are DD, one being my first AR a DDV5, and the second being a DDV7 upper/ ADM lower. So I'd like to think that I understand some part of your thought process.
With all that being said, I still hear people say, that if you are going to get your first rifle, go for a BCM or DD and you'll be good to go, and while this tends to dismiss the X amount of other AR manufactures out there, I would still agree with that statement.
I know it’ll be an unpopular opinion on here but I think BCM is one of the most overrated AR15 manufacturers out there. They have a great marketing department though, I’ll give them that.
Off topic rant:
I'm not referring to BCM in particular.
What I unfortunately learned over the years is that firearms industry and shooting community is rife with douchebags and outright scammers with inflated egos making inferior products, false claims, stealing other people ideas/products, simply rebranding products under their own name, and doing everything they can to sell some crap to people (especially at inflated prices). And this is both on manufacturing and a retail side of things.
Regrettably, you won't or rarely know who they are unless you need to deal with the company or somebody posts their experience. What muddies things is that most popular forums are sponsored/owned/run by the same companies/people. Dissenting opinion is often blocked, ignored, or ridiculed by admins/fake accounts/individuals/fanboys further discouraging people from posting their negative experience.
What's even more repugnant for me personally, is that even so called "industry professionals" are on it and under the pretext of a "close-knit community under the attack from the left" keep protecting such practices/companies/individuals as long as the money is being shuffled their way one way or another.
This comes down to personal experience and talking to people. More products you use, more you shoot the more problems and inbreeding connections you discover in the industry. Instead of getting rid of such characters, firearms industry seems to be doing everything to multiply them.
On a flip side, there are rare, but unique professionals with a great engineering talent, customer service focus, and mil/le experience you won't find anywhere outside of Gov agencies.
I have come to take every posted negative experience with the great appreciation and respect for both the poster and the topic/concern discussed.
/rant
Renegade0100
04-14-20, 18:57
BCM is good. Though the best value is slapping a BCM upper on an Aero lower w/a solid LPK.
BCM is good. Though the best value is slapping a BCM upper on an Aero lower w/a solid LPK.
I would hazard that an even better value is slapping a BCM upper on a PSA lower.
You obviously aren't into produce creation, manufacturing, or the business of selling things. It's not nearly as simple as that.
I guess you're right, I have never heard the term "produce creation."
I guess you're right, I have never heard the term "produce creation."
It's called 'farming' or 'gardening' :jester:
Just bought the bcm complete lower on sale at Brownells. Was on sale for 379 and they charge 10 for the ffl fee and then i had 15 off so 374 shipped.
vicious_cb
04-17-20, 21:36
Since this has become a lets bash BCM thread. Here is some context on the longevity of BCM charging handles. When did they release the gunfighter again? Just sayin'
https://i.imgur.com/i0TEjWG.jpg
For Post_75, someone please explain the post and photo to me. I just totally don't understand what's being said and I can't determine what I'm seeing in the photo. I do see what appears to be a "pre-production" marked charging handle (just the handle portion; the other parts I don't recognize) which also references the "VLTOR" brand. I didn't know VLTOR and BCM were related in some way.
https://bravocompanyusa.com/ar-15-bolt-carrier-charging-handles/
What I see on the referenced webpage are 4 BCM charging handle models and all have the "BCMGUNFIGHTER" trademarked name on them. While I'm a relatively-old AR15 user, I'm relatively-new to buying my own AR15 guns (only bought my own in the last 3 years; one's a BCM).
L-2, the previous version of the BCM charging handles was marked both VLTOR and BCM as a collaboration. I’m pretty sure the point is that someone has been using a BCM charging handle for a long time.
JediGuy, thanks for the explanation. I've got two BCM charging handles.
One c.h. which came with a BCM. Another c.h. which came with my Springfield-Armory.
I also swapped a Radian Raptor LT charging handle into the BCM, so I've got a spare if/when I should end up ever breaking one of these charging handles.
Let's be honest, they are all 'assemblers' in varying degrees.
None of them 'make it all in house'.
None of them.
Let's be honest, they are all 'assemblers' in varying degrees.
None of them 'make it all in house'.
None of them.
Its all semantics, but if you look at car manufacturers (OEMs), the M stands for manufacturer. They also do not make everything in-house. None of them.
Interestingly, they all get certain parts from a few select manufacturers. These parts are made to different specs, so you have different product coming off the same line from the same factory... something I’ve read on the internet doesnt happen.
To be honest, if I were to start a company that produce and sold AR's. I wouldn't invest a single penny into manufacturing capabilities.
To be honest, if I were to start a company that produce and sold AR's. I wouldn't invest a single penny into manufacturing capabilities.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Do you not consider assembly apart of the manufacturing process?
Do you not consider assembly apart of the manufacturing process?
Hyperbole
I stumbled upon this video yesterday. Seems that being just an “Assembler” is far more complicated that it might seem. https://youtu.be/BaFOZAwspYI
Just saw this thread, and maybe it's already been said (since I didn't read all 9 pages of it)... but being an assembler is sometimes HARDER than being a manufacturer. If you can afford to manufacture everything in-house, then you will have full-control of all your parts and all your key-tolerances. If something doesn't fit, you have nobody to blame; but that also means you can make sure everything is "made correctly".
However, as an assembler, if you order a batch of BCG and the bolt heads are cut a tiny bit too big, while this batch of barrels has the lugs in the breech/extension cut a tiny bit too thick, then they may not fit right, the gun may not shoot right, and depends on your supplier you may also be stuck with those parts. It's not an "easy" job being an assembler; to be good at it you have to have years of relationships with suppliers, learn who produce good parts and who tend to make what error, and design your products to work with all those differences. I mean, to make a rifle that "shoots like a dream" out of the box, maybe you HAVE to make everything (or almost everything) in-house... look at LMT or KAC. I have at least 10k rounds on my LMT and have never once cleaned it (not even lubed it... yeah shame on me). Both companies hardly outsource anything, but the lack of "economy of scale" drives their price upwards, and most consumers just don't want to pay that price. So, being an assembler AND be able to offer competitively priced products are much harder than most people give them credit for.
V.
Torquetard
04-24-20, 22:33
BCM is hobby grade
BCM is hobby grade
You’re hobby grade.
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titsonritz
04-25-20, 01:18
You’re hobby grade.
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:sarcastic:
I was thinking 4th grade.
Ok, think this has been through the washer
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