View Full Version : PSA BCG, quality or nah?
Are any of the psa brand BCG worth it over another name brand for the price?
the one they im reading on is listed as a M16 PROFILE CARPENTER 158 MAG PHOSPHATED 5.56 NATO MPI FULL-AUTO BOLT CARRIER GROUP
For AR-15 and M16 rifles and carbines. Made by one of the large popular OEM BCG makers who is also a military supplier. These BCGs are available due to a large OEM order being canceled. We purchased them all and are making them available to you at an incredible price. Their loss is your gain!
These feature a Carpenter 158 Bolt, and a full profile chrome lined carrier. Bolt is made of shot-peened, Mil-spec Carpenter 158® steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked. The bolt carrier is parkerized outside and chrome lined inside.
So who makes it if its a "large popular" maker?
Say no to PSA.
Beyond the specs, it's the QC.
I am fairly certain on WHO makes their bcgs, but it doesn't much matter. One shop can make the same product to different specs for different contracts.
good to know, what would be the baseline for quality bcg? Spikes, BCM, AERO, SOLGW?
good to know, what would be the baseline for quality bcg? Spikes, BCM, AERO, SOLGW?
I use and have used Toolcraft BCGs as “placeholders” in guns and might buy them to have on hand as emergency replacement parts, but in general my BCG picks for long term use would be...in no particular order: Colt, BCM, SOLGW and Sionics. There’s a couple other brands like LMT and KAC that I would also happily use but have no personal experience with. I think Centurion Arms BCGs are supposed to be good too. Primary Arms runs periodic sales on SOLGW BCGs, but aside from that, Sionics are currently consistently the cheapest of the brands I’ve personally used IIRC.
thanks for the info, ive saw alot about toolcraft seems alot of ppl like those
I would hazard a guess that as far as civilian sales volume PSA blows the above recommended companies out of the water. There aren't a lot of documented failures like I would expect if their BCG's were crap,is their QA as good as some of the others no, is that increased QA worth a price literally twice PSA's, IMO no. Any company can release bad product by mistake, I can recall about ten or so years ago a bad batch of Colt bolts got out to the military that were breaking after 2-3000 rounds, shit happens. FWIW Toolcraft makes carriers no bolts, I suspect PSA gets a lot of their product from them the question is where do the bolts come from.
Yeah I thought i read somewhere or maybe even some of theirs actually say they are toolcraft but im not certain. I do have the above mentioned bcg in of of my build so i guess time will tell how it holds up.
Leonidas24
04-05-20, 09:58
I would hazard a guess that as far as civilian sales volume PSA blows the above recommended companies out of the water. There aren't a lot of documented failures like I would expect if their BCG's were crap,is their QA as good as some of the others no, is that increased QA worth a price literally twice PSA's, IMO no. Any company can release bad product by mistake, I can recall about ten or so years ago a bad batch of Colt bolts got out to the military that were breaking after 2-3000 rounds, shit happens. FWIW Toolcraft makes carriers no bolts, I suspect PSA gets a lot of their product from them the question is where do the bolts come from.
There are enough documented instances of QA/QC issues that I personally stay away from them at this point. I've had two PSA "premium" BCG's that matched milspec call outs for material, QA testing, and finish. One functioned perfectly fine for many thousands of rounds until it was replaced with a Sionics NP3 bolt. The second needed a carrier replaced after maybe 800 rounds because the finish under the chrome lining was eating gas rings. Whoever was manufacturing PSA's carriers at the time I purchased mine did a crap job deburring the material prior to chrome lining, and after that there was no going back. One of my close friends had the same experience in one of his M4s using a PSA BCG about a year after I bought mine that was having issues.
Lately I've had the same issue with an AO Precision BCG that ate through 2/3 gas rings in the course of about 1,200 rds. That carrier was replaced by one from SOLGW and AOP has not returned any of my emails.
There are enough documented instances of QA/QC issues that I personally stay away from them at this point. I've had two PSA "premium" BCG's that matched milspec call outs for material, QA testing, and finish. One functioned perfectly fine for many thousands of rounds until it was replaced with a Sionics NP3 bolt. The second needed a carrier replaced after maybe 800 rounds because the finish under the chrome lining was eating gas rings. Whoever was manufacturing PSA's carriers at the time I purchased mine did a crap job deburring the material prior to chrome lining, and after that there was no going back. One of my close friends had the same experience in one of his M4s using a PSA BCG about a year after I bought mine that was having issues.
Lately I've had the same issue with an AO Precision BCG that ate through 2/3 gas rings in the course of about 1,200 rds. That carrier was replaced by one from SOLGW and AOP has not returned any of my emails.
I had a PSA Premium BCG that ate gas rings. It lasted maybe 400 rounds between ring replacements, so an owner who shot 2-3 boxes of ammo a couple times a year may not have seen a problem. PSA replaced it without issue, and I sold the replacement.
Andy
justin_247
04-05-20, 11:06
Hell no. You can buy a quality BCG from Centurion Arms for $125.
https://www.centurionarms.com/bolt-carrier-group-p/bcg-c4.htm
Hell no. You can buy a quality BCG from Centurion Arms for $125.
https://www.centurionarms.com/bolt-carrier-group-p/bcg-c4.htm
Those look solid does anyone ever run them on sale?
Those look solid does anyone ever run them on sale?
Primary Arms used to but probably won’t now. Either way, that’s about as cheap as you can get a great BCG so it is what it is.
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I don’t think you will see those on sale, but...maybe at one point?
But seriously, $125 is a stellar price from a reputable company. Super friendly the couple times I’ve reached four to them. I’ve been going with Sionics NP3 recently, but otherwise would be buying these.
Looking for a better price is almost unnecessary, unless picking up a Toolcraft for $70-90 for a budget build or emergency backup.
10-4 never hurts to ask i always try to catch stuff on sale if possible
I have 1 Toolcraft CAGE code marked BCG I purchased from WC Armory that has given me great service. I would purchase another as a lower cost alternative before buying a PSA BCG again.
For anything but a budget build, I think Sionics hits a great price point with their phosphate BCGs, and they are quality parts.
Andy
cool so sionics and centurion seem highly recommended where do they compare to solgw and bcm
titsonritz
04-05-20, 13:53
Primary Arms used to but probably won’t now. Either way, that’s about as cheap as you can get a great BCG so it is what it is.
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PA was also blowing out SOLGW BCG for $115 and LPK less FCG and trigger guard for $25.
PSA's upper end BCG are toolcraft. I have a couple and they have worked flawlessly.
CrowCommand
04-05-20, 15:00
I had a PSA Premium BCG that ate gas rings. It lasted maybe 400 rounds between ring replacements, so an owner who shot 2-3 boxes of ammo a couple times a year may not have seen a problem. PSA replaced it without issue, and I sold the replacement.
Andy
I just pulled my PSA premium BCG apart and it's missing one, second is damaged and third ring is intact....maybe 2k rounds on the bolt.
turnburglar
04-05-20, 15:58
I feel like PSA's "poor quality" reputation on these forums is just ghosts from their past. A lot of posters spent really good money on a rifle from a 'known quality assembler' and they just won't let their egos down long enough to see you can get good AR parts from lots of places. I have a PSA premium BCG from 2013 that probably has 4,000 rounds under it. Looks fine and will continue to ride in my main match rifle. I also have one of their nitrided BCG's from 2018 that now has past 2,000 rounds and it is also running great.
To rebuff the common: "PSA has good suppliers but they don't get the same specs as other companies" myth; I decided to measure the gas port on two 'PSA' barrels. Because everyone on the forums thinks PSA has terribly huge gas ports. The 10.5 mike'd out to 0.073 and the 16" mid by FN had a 0.076 gas port. Not the smallest, but they definitely don't deserve the bad rap they get here.
A lot of people come to the forums expecting some well thought out scientific presentation on why brand X is superior to brand Y, and the reality is; the data simply doesn't exist. Theres so much more ego and myth than testing and data in the gun world. I feel like in every post I defend PSA I have to also enumerate that I carried a Colt for years and have a BCM in the safe. Im not a budget whore, but Ill save money on parts and spend it on cases of ammo if I can.
I feel like PSA's "poor quality" reputation on these forums is just ghosts from their past. A lot of posters spent really good money on a rifle from a 'known quality assembler' and they just won't let their egos down long enough to see you can get good AR parts from lots of places. I have a PSA premium BCG from 2013 that probably has 4,000 rounds under it. Looks fine and will continue to ride in my main match rifle. I also have one of their nitrided BCG's from 2018 that now has past 2,000 rounds and it is also running great.
To rebuff the common: "PSA has good suppliers but they don't get the same specs as other companies" myth; I decided to measure the gas port on two 'PSA' barrels. Because everyone on the forums thinks PSA has terribly huge gas ports. The 10.5 mike'd out to 0.073 and the 16" mid by FN had a 0.076 gas port. Not the smallest, but they definitely don't deserve the bad rap they get here.
A lot of people come to the forums expecting some well thought out scientific presentation on why brand X is superior to brand Y, and the reality is; the data simply doesn't exist. Theres so much more ego and myth than testing and data in the gun world. I feel like in every post I defend PSA I have to also enumerate that I carried a Colt for years and have a BCM in the safe. Im not a budget whore, but Ill save money on parts and spend it on cases of ammo if I can.
good post thanks
You will see a common defense of PSA is the price.
good post thanks
that is not a good post. his arguments basically boil down to, "mine runs fine."
I have a couple of their premium offerings. One lives in a 10.5" suppressed upper that gets abused. I would say it has a few thousand rounds through it and it's still going strong.
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CrowCommand
04-05-20, 16:47
I feel like PSA's "poor quality" reputation on these forums is just ghosts from their past. A lot of posters spent really good money on a rifle from a 'known quality assembler' and they just won't let their egos down long enough to see you can get good AR parts from lots of places. I have a PSA premium BCG from 2013 that probably has 4,000 rounds under it. Looks fine and will continue to ride in my main match rifle. I also have one of their nitrided BCG's from 2018 that now has past 2,000 rounds and it is also running great.
To rebuff the common: "PSA has good suppliers but they don't get the same specs as other companies" myth; I decided to measure the gas port on two 'PSA' barrels. Because everyone on the forums thinks PSA has terribly huge gas ports. The 10.5 mike'd out to 0.073 and the 16" mid by FN had a 0.076 gas port. Not the smallest, but they definitely don't deserve the bad rap they get here.
A lot of people come to the forums expecting some well thought out scientific presentation on why brand X is superior to brand Y, and the reality is; the data simply doesn't exist. Theres so much more ego and myth than testing and data in the gun world. I feel like in every post I defend PSA I have to also enumerate that I carried a Colt for years and have a BCM in the safe. Im not a budget whore, but Ill save money on parts and spend it on cases of ammo if I can.
That is all well and good, but, as mentioned above, PSA probably does way more volume of sales, than your go-to BCM, Colt, KAC, Sionics, etc.
I don't doubt you have a decent barrel from them. But with all the sales they do, they're bound to get a lemon or ten out there, where-as the reputable companies have to charge more for the quality control.
ETA: I'm running a Toolcraft C158 BCG in an 11.5 pistol, unsuppressed, that has approximately the same round count (BCG mentioned above is in a 14.5"). All rings intact, though the bolt won't support the weight of the entire BCG vertically.
I never knew that there was such a disparity in quality among all the available BCG's. Live and learn.
that is not a good post. his arguments basically boil down to, "mine runs fine."
Exactly. Small sample size and comparatively few rounds fired.
justin_247
04-05-20, 19:33
Some examples of bad PSA quality control, in these videos you can see several problems with a PSA upper, including a bad barrel extension, firing pin protrusion issues, and probably a tight chamber. And this was the third bad upper that this individual had dealt with from PSA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nupt3c-tQbw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-F2gWqSdog
I never knew that there was such a disparity in quality among all the available BCG's. Live and learn.
There are huge disparities in quality between them.
Again I will say that PSA premium BCG are made by Tool Craft. How can some of you praise Tool Craft in this thread and then basically say that PSA Premium BCG made by Tool Craft is garbage? Makes no sense to me.
Exactly. Small sample size and comparatively few rounds fired.
If you've been paying attention, a lot of folks are saying their PSA's run fine, on this forum and others.
I think that at this point PSA's model - quantity sales - ought to be obvious.
Do they have the QC in place that BCM, Sionics and others have? No, probably not. But what they do have is several times the combined sales of BCM, Sionics and several others. I believe the Nazi's would have called the PSA Freedom line Volkssturmgewehr, Ford would call them Escorts.
Point being, they work fine for most folks.
Don't be this guy: (I think I saw this in a mem on pistol forum and modified it a little)
It's day eleven of the Apocalypse.
You've escaped into the hills with your supplies, and are crouching in some bushes watching with your Nightforce equipped long boi to see if you've been followed. Nobody could spot your ghillie suit from this hide.
All of a sudden, you hear a crack, frome closer than you'd expect. There's a sharp pain in your neck as the TulAmmo FMJ round tears it's way through. You've been hit by Boogaloo Bob, with his UTG decked out PSA.
You feel the wet heat as he looms inches from your face, dropping crumbs on the ground all around you. His voice creaks with moistness. 'Just as good' he whispers, stepping over your body as everything fades to black. He reaches out for your weapon with his Cheeto stained fingers. The last thing you feel - his NCSTAR sling gliding over your face.
There is NO WAY you wouldn’t hear Boogaloo Bob’s footfalls if he were still eating Cheeto’s. No way.
I'm approaching 10,000 rounds with my PSA rifle with the original stock BCG. I run the rifle hard using cheap Russian steel ammo, I don't do bench shooting with this. Out of the entire original BCG assembly, only the firing pin broke around the 7,000 round mark, the bolt is still holding strong. One day I did notice a ding on the gas key where it meets the gas the gas tube. You can see it in the pictures. I don't know how it got there but it does not affect reliability. This thing has been running like a champ since my first day of taking it out. Of course, sample size n=1, others have different experiences.
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There is NO WAY you wouldn’t hear Boogaloo Bob’s footfalls if he were still eating Cheeto’s. No way.
Apparently you have little experience sneaking crunchy food while in close proximity to your wife or kids. It can be done.
I guess I’ll have to practice...
Again I will say that PSA premium BCG are made by Tool Craft. How can some of you praise Tool Craft in this thread and then basically say that PSA Premium BCG made by Tool Craft is garbage? Makes no sense to me.
Is PSA QCing what they get from tool craft? The top tier manufacturers don’t make everything themselves, but do QC what they subcontract out. This is the difference.
I'm approaching 10,000 rounds with my PSA rifle with the original stock BCG. I run the rifle hard using cheap Russian steel ammo, I don't do bench shooting with this. Out of the entire original BCG assembly, only the firing pin broke around the 7,000 round mark, the bolt is still holding strong. One day I did notice a ding on the gas key where it meets the gas the gas tube. You can see it in the pictures. I don't know how it got there but it does not affect reliability. This thing has been running like a champ since my first day of taking it out. Of course, sample size n=1, others have different experiences.
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You had to shoot 10,000 rounds before you found out if you got a decent gun or not. With BCM, you don’t have to do that.
Is PSA QCing what they get from tool craft? The top tier manufacturers don’t make everything themselves, but do QC what they subcontract out. This is the difference.
Give it up man. Tool Craft if not going to send them crap.
Give it up man. Tool Craft if not going to send them crap.
How would they know if they did?
I miss Iraqguns. This forum is no longer the same.
Again I will say that PSA premium BCG are made by Tool Craft. How can some of you praise Tool Craft in this thread and then basically say that PSA Premium BCG made by Tool Craft is garbage? Makes no sense to me.
I related my experience with Toolcraft (no issues) and PSA Premium (issues) BCGs honestly and without calling PSA garbage.
I don't think anyone has praised Toolcraft and condemned PSA.
I would expect the majority of folks here to recommend one or more brands from a short list before they recommended either PSA or Toolcraft.
Andy
I would expect the majority of folks here to recommend one or more brands from a short list before they recommended either PSA or Toolcraft.
Andy
Yeah. We used to have higher standards, I guess. I would recommend Sionics or Forward Control Designs.
https://youtu.be/kADQX_xmrSY
His first BCG physical must have been to good to be true so it appears he had to do a second one: https://youtu.be/BUQZWepzy7Y
https://youtu.be/VuZ4TgoR1Zk
And for tool craft fans out there: https://youtu.be/9yE1iNoj-tY
For what it’s worth, but these are sample sizes of one only.
RE: Post_41. That was a very interesting video. I can't see any shop or local gun store (LGS) having that many tools, gauges, & equipment dedicated just to checking a bolt carrier group (BCG).
This guy even had a demagnitizer on-hand after discovering the firing pin was magnetic. I do wish he'd determined if the short firing pin protrusion was due to the firing pin or bolt (I'll go back and read the comments in case it was done after the video). I counted four or five issues he found with that new Toolcraft bcg.
As a user/consumer, we can only hope to buy a good bcg, hoping it'll be completely in spec. I suspect for many/most people, if we'd bought the bcg in the video, it might have worked for thousands of rounds and we may not have experienced any failures or maybe an intermittent failure (like a light primer strike) which would have been quickly ejected, then shooting continued.
Would that bcg even go 10K rounds? He didn't say other than the bcg wasn't perfect, but just ok with some quality failure points. He concluded by saying it's a sample of one and doesn't mean more would be any worse or better. I do wonder what rifle companies, if any, would check each bcg going into its ARs to that extent; or if any bcg supplier 100% checks its product to that extent. I know sampling gets involved in production, but if so, what tolerances do the manufacturers use compared to the guy in the video. Presumably, that bcg in the video got out into the market.
(I liked the cat in the video.)
https://i.imgur.com/mYZiCXF.gif
To rebuff the common: "PSA has good suppliers but they don't get the same specs as other companies" myth; I decided to measure the gas port on two 'PSA' barrels. Because everyone on the forums thinks PSA has terribly huge gas ports. The 10.5 mike'd out to 0.073 and the 16" mid by FN had a 0.076 gas port. Not the smallest, but they definitely don't deserve the bad rap they get here.
.
I don’t have pin gauges, only drill bits, a tapered needle, and calipers. So take this with a grain of salt. But PSA seems to have moved their gas port sizes into the range that might be called “proper”, depending on how one defines that.
I think a lot of PSA’s bad rep comes from their high volume sales. But I do see real things that turn me off, such as the strange muzzle threads. Most people won’t notice unless they are twisting on a suppressor mount. And the carbine buffers. And out of spec recoil springs. But I digress.
And surely, some of their bad rep comes from garbage home “builds” that have PSA receivers. PSA is local to me, so there are plenty of these around. And I think a lot of guys assembling guns around a PSA receiver are very budget driven. These guns get seen at the range, or sold advertised as “PSA”, and give people a sour taste.
that is not a good post. his arguments basically boil down to, "mine runs fine."
Seems to be a common sentiment.
If you've been paying attention, a lot of folks are saying their PSA's run fine, on this forum and others.
I think that at this point PSA's model - quantity sales - ought to be obvious.
Do they have the QC in place that BCM, Sionics and others have? No, probably not. But what they do have is several times the combined sales of BCM, Sionics and several others. I believe the Nazi's would have called the PSA Freedom line Volkssturmgewehr, Ford would call them Escorts.
Point being, they work fine for most folks.
Don't be this guy: (I think I saw this in a mem on pistol forum and modified it a little)
It's day eleven of the Apocalypse.
You've escaped into the hills with your supplies, and are crouching in some bushes watching with your Nightforce equipped long boi to see if you've been followed. Nobody could spot your ghillie suit from this hide.
All of a sudden, you hear a crack, frome closer than you'd expect. There's a sharp pain in your neck as the TulAmmo FMJ round tears it's way through. You've been hit by Boogaloo Bob, with his UTG decked out PSA.
You feel the wet heat as he looms inches from your face, dropping crumbs on the ground all around you. His voice creaks with moistness. 'Just as good' he whispers, stepping over your body as everything fades to black. He reaches out for your weapon with his Cheeto stained fingers. The last thing you feel - his NCSTAR sling gliding over your face.
PSA is definitely the modern American Volkssturmgewehr. Thanks for the Boogaloo Bob story. Made my day.
I would recommend Sionics or Forward Control Designs.
I know little about PSA BCG’s, mostly because I know little about BCGs. I own one that gets used as a placeholder. It works, doesn’t eat gas rings or tubes. Doesn’t leak. Looks a lot like a Colt one except for the markings and extractor spring.
That said, I’ve got two Sionics BCG’s and two FCD ones. These have seen lots of ammo and a little abuse. They also work well.
scubagator
04-06-20, 08:48
To be honest can’t see there be any problems with a Premium PSA Nickel Boron BCG... IMHOhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200406/d1a603ae5f62e87d7fa31ccd3d137ec8.jpg
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MikhailBarracuda91
04-06-20, 09:34
Really the only part I go cheap on (if I have to) is the stripped lower. Everything is too important. I have a background in manufacturing so quality is very important to me. I will gladly give my hard earned money to an American company that has a true commitment to quality, not one that works well "most" of the time.
This is why the Japanese have been making better automobiles than USA for a while now. Quality used to be an American STANDARD, people knew what they were buying. Now the Japanese have caught on and for the most part they have copied that business model.
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thanks for all the info and replies its much appreciated
You had to shoot 10,000 rounds before you found out if you got a decent gun or not. With BCM, you don’t have to do that.
Come on, guys post about how many rounds they have through their 'X' rifles all the time.
Are you one of those paid posters that Stickman mentions?
Yeah. We used to have higher standards, I guess. I would recommend Sionics or Forward Control Designs.
https://youtu.be/kADQX_xmrSY
His first BCG physical must have been to good to be true so it appears he had to do a second one: https://youtu.be/BUQZWepzy7Y
https://youtu.be/VuZ4TgoR1Zk
Not a valid comment
And for tool craft fans out there: https://youtu.be/9yE1iNoj-tY
For what it’s worth, but these are sample sizes of one only.
And the samples used varied dramatically in use from new, to low rounds, to an unknown number of rounds from a filthy Toolcraft.
Come on, guys post about how many rounds they have through their 'X' rifles all the time.
Are you one of those paid posters that Stickman mentions?
No. Just a fanboy. BTW, how can I get in on that action? I would love to mix business with pleasure. [emoji39]
If you've been paying attention, a lot of folks are saying their PSA's run fine, on this forum and others.
And the samples used varied dramatically in use from new, to low rounds, to an unknown number of rounds from a filthy Toolcraft.
The sample source you’re defending is lacks uniformity as well.
Instructor Chad has numerous BCG physical videos. I chose the ones for FCD because the proprietor, Duffy, posts here regularly (site sponsor?) and I like his stuff. I don’t think I have bought anything of his yet, but I do have a number of Sionics products, and they have a hand in producing FCD’s BCG.
SOTAR is pretty well respected, it’s far from just an LGS.
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BCM BCGs also have reported issues, check reviews on brownells:
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/bolt-carrier-groups/m16-5-56-bolt-carrier-group-prod87124.aspx
At least one sheared extractor under 1k rounds; sheared gas key screws. Not sure why people are saying some brands/bcgs are immune to mechanical issues.
Not sure why people are saying some brands/bcgs are immune to mechanical issues.
Because they haven’t? Pretty sure nobody said that.
turnburglar
04-06-20, 14:38
No. Just a fanboy. [emoji39]
Clearly. You fall right into my original statement of : "people can't let their ego's go long enough..."
What's so funny to me is every brand you have 'repped' for you admitted to not even owning said rifle, AND that brand is a simple assembler, not a true manufacture. Who makes that Sonics BCG in your gun? Microbest, tool craft or DRG? Oh but, it doesn't matter who Sonics OEM is because they do the testing and eval for you right?
As a SCUBA diver I have a lot of respect for life support equipment, and testing and maintenance. I have done dives on rental regulators from a brand I dont personally own. Im not gonna ruin my trip to the bahamas because the dive center doesn't have Hollis or ScubaPro. Why I trust that rental Cressi regulator is because there is a certain level of maintenance that goes into a regularly used unit. The same goes for a rifle. If your an LEO that needs to buy something, run very very few rounds through it, and then trust your absolute life to it: DO NOT BUY A PSA. If you are brand new to AR's (sounds like you cold bore) and dont know how to properly clean and lube one (BMW-CLS) DO NOT BUY A PSA. For the majority of posters on this forum though that will actually take their rifles and shoot them, you can save hundreds of dollars with PSA. I had one of their 10.5 pistol kits that came with a bad charging handle and cotter pin. $25 worth of parts later my AR has run almost 2k rounds. With the actual cost of the AR, the parts needed to fix it, and then 2 cases of ammo I am STILL under what my BCM costs. For what its worth when I reached out to PSA about the bad parts in the upper, they offered to replace them. They are not duty grade, but they are absolutely not the Olympic arms or bushmaster from 2005 like people treat them.
Because they haven’t? Pretty sure nobody said that.
come on! people constantly say or imply that (aka - "you need 10k rounds to prove something works vs brand X").
This hoopla with PSA threads pops up every 2-3 months here. It's not even interesting or informative anymore.
I don't know why PSA is so much more discussed in general vs other brands.
It would be much more interesting to see a discussion on Geissele BCG vs KAC or something like that.
Really the only part I go cheap on (if I have to) is the stripped lower. Everything is too important. I have a background in manufacturing so quality is very important to me. I will gladly give my hard earned money to an American company that has a true commitment to quality, not one that works well "most" of the time.
This is why the Japanese have been making better automobiles than USA for a while now. Quality used to be an American STANDARD, people knew what they were buying. Now the Japanese have caught on and for the most part they have copied that business model.
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W. Edwards Deming taught the Japanese about quality control. I don’t believe there was any interest in Deming ideas in the United States in the 1950s.
https://www.wyohistory.org/encyclopedia/w-edwards-deming
It would be much more interesting to see a discussion on Geissele BCG vs KAC or something like that.
I completely agree. The new Geissele REBCG sounds really great. I especially like the fact that it has a forged bolt. Is this an industry first? Never heard of anyone doing a forged bolt before but I thought that it would be a great idea, given the M-4’s and other SBR’s history of bolt problems. It’s on my short list of BCGs to buy in the future.
Are any of the psa brand BCG worth it over another name brand for the price?
the one they im reading on is listed as a M16 PROFILE CARPENTER 158 MAG PHOSPHATED 5.56 NATO MPI FULL-AUTO BOLT CARRIER GROUP
For AR-15 and M16 rifles and carbines. Made by one of the large popular OEM BCG makers who is also a military supplier. These BCGs are available due to a large OEM order being canceled. We purchased them all and are making them available to you at an incredible price. Their loss is your gain!
These feature a Carpenter 158 Bolt, and a full profile chrome lined carrier. Bolt is made of shot-peened, Mil-spec Carpenter 158® steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked. The bolt carrier is parkerized outside and chrome lined inside.
So who makes it if its a "large popular" maker?
So there is a lot of stuff on this thread. I actually own a PSA Primuem BCG, and I don't have that many rounds through it. Having said that, for the price, I would look at Fail-Zero, Midwest Industries and Centurion Arms. You can find awesome BCG's for around $125-$150. Having said that, most of my guns have DD or
BCM BCGs and they run outstanding. Edit: I have 2 Fail Zero's one with over 6k rounds on it, the second most of all my AR's.
I completely agree. The new Geissele REBCG sounds really great. I especially like the fact that it has a forged bolt. Is this an industry first? Never heard of anyone doing a forged bolt before but I thought that it would be a great idea, given the M-4’s and other SBR’s history of bolt problems. It’s on my short list of BCGs to buy in the future.
I also agree with this sentiment: It would be much more interesting to see a discussion on Geissele BCG vs KAC or something like that.
Geissele does a pretty good job of explaining why they made the changes to the BCG on their site, but it would be interesting to see some 'where the rubber meets the road' reviews.
The sticking point for me on BCG's is this little snippet from Battlefield LV:
We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.
And this info from Us Army RDECOM:
The bolt is continually one of the top replacement cost drivers for TACOM, with an average monthly demand of ~ 1800.
The historical part life for the bolt in an M4 carbine averages approximately ~ 12,000 rounds.
The primary failure is cracked lugs resulting from high cyclic loading.
Previously (in 2006) Crane stated:
Most Bolts Subjected to Harsh Firing Schedules Will Show Initial Cracking Around 3,000 to 6,000 Rounds
On Milder Schedules, Nearly All Bolts Will Show Initial Cracking at 6,000 to 10,000 Rounds
Once the Crack Is Initiated, the Bolt May Fail at Any Time, or May Last for Thousands of Rounds, Depending on Crack Propagation"
Let me tie all this info together.
Battlefield Las Vegas: failures around 20,000; recent RDECOM study: 12,000 rounds before failure; older Crane data for milder schedules: 6,000 to 10,000.
So, I'm thinking most AR owners won't shoot enough rounds through their AR's, ever, to wear out a bolt. Most folks on this site don't do full auto; and, I'd guess, most folks on this site folks don't fire over 3,000 rounds a year.
I can almost always get Toolcraft C-158 BCG's for around $90.00. Seems it might last me a couple years. So I'd rather spend the other money on something else.
I'd like to someone conduct an objective cost-benefit analysis of these bolts to an average shooter.
justin_247
04-06-20, 19:27
One note: I'm not a PSA hater. I strongly support PSA's mission: proliferate the AR and AK platforms as much as possible to make them even more "common use". I believe PSA has the ability to improve their quality control processes. However, if nobody ever holds them to account for their QA failures, they'll have little incentive to improve.
I'd like to someone conduct an objective cost-benefit analysis of these bolts to an average shooter.
This entire post is outstanding.
I will gladly give my hard earned money to an American company that has a true commitment to quality, not one that works well "most" of the time.
This is where I stand too. My first AR-15 was based on a PSA “premium” 20” hammer forged upper. I bought into the “just as good” hype the masses were telling everyone on some other forums. All the specs sounded so good and all the boxes were checked right down to the dry film lube on the upper. It hasn’t been a *terrible* purchase, but when I decided to swap the barrel out on that upper, I was appalled at how little force it took to loosen the barrel nut. It was little more than hand tight. Pathetic really. Since then, I have built my own uppers using quality parts from BCM, Sionics, and some others, and started reading M4Carbine.net were there were industry partners and senior members posting that were not afraid of calling out the BS when they heard it.
One note: I'm not a PSA hater. I strongly support PSA's mission: proliferate the AR and AK platforms as much as possible to make them even more "common use". I believe PSA has the ability to improve their quality control processes. However, if nobody ever holds them to account for their QA failures, they'll have little incentive to improve.
This entire post is outstanding.
I agree, im an AK guy and they have just now started making decent aks. Up until now there hasn't been a decent American made ak on the market. Granted its took them a few revisions but they have actually listed to the ppl and done them right. So far the GF3, AKV, and AKE seem solid.
LMT Shooter
04-06-20, 20:08
W. Edwards Deming taught the Japanese about quality control. I don’t believe there was any interest in Deming ideas in the United States in the 1950s.
https://www.wyohistory.org/encyclopedia/w-edwards-deming
A fascinating read, thank you very much. A very solid philosophy for manufacturing, sounds like KAC may be on that path. I'll be researching him some more.
Shouldn’t there be a forum rule about any topic that includes the phrase “or nah?”
Shouldn’t there be a forum rule about any topic that includes the phrase “or nah?”
-Nah.
Of the cheaper priced BCGs that get a lot of love from people in the know this is probably the best bet.
https://www.righttobear.com/AO-Precision-Phosphate-Bolt-Carrier-Group-158-HP-p/aom16-hpt-mpi.htm
If you want to learn a lot about BCGs watch some SOTAR videos on them. I just bought a AO but have not used it. It came with a 4 coils extractor spring with an o ring. I replaced the extractor and ejector spring with Colt springs just to make me feel better.
I have never had a problem with any PSA BCG's. I have about 15 of them
I have never had a problem with any PSA BCG's. I have about 15 of them
if anyone wanted a definitive answer on function/quality and a good sample size this ^ would be it. Thank you for your feedback and sharing your experience.
/thread
How would they know if they did?
I miss Iraqguns. This forum is no longer the same.
Inspecting parts. PSA does a lot of business and Tool Craft would be very stupid to send PSA crap. Tool Craft wants to sell their product and make a profit. PSA helps them do that.
I have never had a problem with any PSA BCG's. I have about 15 of them
How many rounds do you have on each of them?
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ChattanoogaPhil
04-07-20, 10:00
Wife's rifle has a PSA premium (NB) BCG. She's on her third case (2K+ rounds) M193. Recreational use. No hiccups.
I bought a couple PSA Premium BCGs during the last ban for a great price. Both had the ejector pin peened/flowered at the end and likely not inserted fully. Given the price and ban time I just replaced both pins.
So the QC argument goes, if they miss little, obvious, things like bright peened pins, what else do they miss? I like bargains as much as the next guy but especially in the flooded price conscious AR world I like proven items from proven companies more. That said, I do like PSA as a company and have no doubt they would respond to any CS issues I may have.
However, every item has it's place and after test firing both BCGs I put one in my Can Cannon and the other in my range bag as a finish-the-day spare.
Dennis.
Leonidas24
04-07-20, 20:09
Of the cheaper priced BCGs that get a lot of love from people in the know this is probably the best bet.
https://www.righttobear.com/AO-Precision-Phosphate-Bolt-Carrier-Group-158-HP-p/aom16-hpt-mpi.htm
If you want to learn a lot about BCGs watch some SOTAR videos on them. I just bought a AO but have not used it. It came with a 4 coils extractor spring with an o ring. I replaced the extractor and ejector spring with Colt springs just to make me feel better.
See my previous post in this thread on page 1. The AO I bought from R2B last fall eroded 2 gas rings around 1,200 rounds. Since then the carrier and gas rings (still using the AO bolt) were replaced with parts from SOLGW and I've had no additional problems. R2B has offered to replace the carrier, and I'll likely take them up on that offer as AO Precision has not returned any of my calls or emails regarding the problem.
Is it systemic? Unknown, my sample size of 1 was still chugging along on a single gas ring after 500 rds at Rainier Arms' Carbine II in early March.
See my previous post in this thread on page 1. The AO I bought from R2B last fall eroded 2 gas rings around 1,200 rounds. Since then the carrier and gas rings (still using the AO bolt) were replaced with parts from SOLGW and I've had no additional problems. R2B has offered to replace the carrier, and I'll likely take them up on that offer as AO Precision has not returned any of my calls or emails regarding the problem.
Is it systemic? Unknown, my sample size of 1 was still chugging along on a single gas ring after 500 rds at Rainier Arms' Carbine II in early March.
Interesting. So SOTAR did a BCG “physical” and said the inside of the BCG was a pit rough and thought that it could erode gas rings prematurely but I’ve all liked the BCG. I’d post the video but the channel is down.
I also agree with this sentiment: It would be much more interesting to see a discussion on Geissele BCG vs KAC or something like that.
Geissele does a pretty good job of explaining why they made the changes to the BCG on their site, but it would be interesting to see some 'where the rubber meets the road' reviews.
The sticking point for me on BCG's is this little snippet from Battlefield LV:
We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.
And this info from Us Army RDECOM:
The bolt is continually one of the top replacement cost drivers for TACOM, with an average monthly demand of ~ 1800.
The historical part life for the bolt in an M4 carbine averages approximately ~ 12,000 rounds.
The primary failure is cracked lugs resulting from high cyclic loading.
Previously (in 2006) Crane stated:
Most Bolts Subjected to Harsh Firing Schedules Will Show Initial Cracking Around 3,000 to 6,000 Rounds
On Milder Schedules, Nearly All Bolts Will Show Initial Cracking at 6,000 to 10,000 Rounds
Once the Crack Is Initiated, the Bolt May Fail at Any Time, or May Last for Thousands of Rounds, Depending on Crack Propagation"
Let me tie all this info together.
Battlefield Las Vegas: failures around 20,000; recent RDECOM study: 12,000 rounds before failure; older Crane data for milder schedules: 6,000 to 10,000.
So, I'm thinking most AR owners won't shoot enough rounds through their AR's, ever, to wear out a bolt. Most folks on this site don't do full auto; and, I'd guess, most folks on this site folks don't fire over 3,000 rounds a year.
I can almost always get Toolcraft C-158 BCG's for around $90.00. Seems it might last me a couple years. So I'd rather spend the other money on something else.
I'd like to someone conduct an objective cost-benefit analysis of these bolts to an average shooter.
You’re being far too rational...
Leonidas24
04-08-20, 10:48
Interesting. So SOTAR did a BCG “physical” and said the inside of the BCG was a pit rough and thought that it could erode gas rings prematurely but I’ve all liked the BCG. I’d post the video but the channel is down.
WTH I was just watching his vids two days ago.
You’re being far too rational...
That is what I'm going for, but you are the first to even suggest I'm near the mark.
WTH I was just watching his vids two days ago.
Hmm, seems like a coincidence, but could it be the BCM cops?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTPzTG1Lx60
PrivateCitizen
04-08-20, 13:41
WTH I was just watching his vids two days ago.
Dollar bets that the YT beast thinks he is teaching people how to build guns …
bamashooter
04-08-20, 14:20
Probably 10-12 BCGs purchased "from" PSA. Some are nitride, some phosphate, one nickel boron. Some have many, many rounds and others not. All have been fine, however; the boron would not toss the extracted brass while trying to strip and feed a fresh round. The fresh round would strip but get jammed up with the empty brass. This happen 5-6 consecutive attempts. This was on a new pistol. I swapped BCGs and all was well. The boron BCG worked just fine in the other pistol. Both were the same ammo brand and type (5.56). No idea if TC manufactured any of the carriers. I always run them wet but not stupid wet.
How many rounds do you have on each of them?
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Several thousand on each. One has over 14K. Only thing I have ever done was replace the gas ring with one piece ones when they got too loose. The gun that has 14K on it actually has a lot more as I used to swap that bcg between 2 uppers.
What about these aim bcg?
https://aimsurplus.com/aim-ar15-m16-h4x-223-5-56-9310-mpi-bolt-carrier-group/https://aimsurplus.com/aim-ar15-m16-h4x-223-5-56-9310-mpi-bolt-carrier-group/
What about these aim bcg?
https://aimsurplus.com/aim-ar15-m16-h4x-223-5-56-9310-mpi-bolt-carrier-group/https://aimsurplus.com/aim-ar15-m16-h4x-223-5-56-9310-mpi-bolt-carrier-group/
That link didn't work for a BCG, 404 ERROR. I looked at the AIM BCG's - they are all 9310 steel bolts as far as I could see. The preferred material is C-158, which is a proprietary alloy, coming from one source. As a result it is more costly.
There are some who state that properly heat-treated 9310 is as good as, or better, than C-158. I don't know if that is true.
When you are looking at BCG's the magic sauce material wise is:
Bolt - C-158 steel
Bolt Carrier - 8620 steel
Carrier Key - 4130 steel
Extractor - 4140 steel
Cam pin - 4340 steel
Extractor Spring - Colt or equivalent, i.e. BCM, Springco
The mil-spec magic for the bolt is:
Shot-peened - this is to relieve stresses in the metal from machining/forging.
High Pressure Proof Tested* (HPT) mil-spec is that thebolt shall withstand the firing of one Government standard M197, 5.56mm high pressure test cartridge conforming to MIL-C-46936.
Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI) - simply stated in MPI the part is magnetized and fine iron particles cluster along faults in the material. The process is pretty common, we magnafluxed parts in high school auto shop class.
* Here is the deal on HPT:
1) Some folks (Knight's Armament Corporation among them) belief that the HPT round unduly stresses the bolt resulting in shorter bolt life.
2) High-pressure testing adds another step and additional expense to the manufacturing process.
3) It is my understanding that the mil-spec is MPI before the HPT. This makes sense in one respect, batches of bolts are inspected BEFORE assembly into the bolt carrier. IMO while efficient, this really doesn't make sense, it seems to me that MPI would be more useful AFTER the bolt is HPT in order to reveal any issues created by the HPT. Of course, this would add more steps to the process - disassembly for MPI after the HPT, etc. So from a mass production viewpoint it would be costly and inefficient.
In addition to HPT, when you buy a BCG from BCM, it has been test-fired. Likewise, in addition to HPT, BCG's from SOLGW are full auto test fired as an assembly. This is a QC check that many feel warrants a more premium price.
For $25.00 to $50.00 less, I'm comfortable with a C-158 BCG that has been shot-peened and MPI tested. I don't feel the need for an HPT based on what I outlined (3) above.
JMO - not an engineer.
justin_247
05-02-20, 15:14
What about these aim bcg?
https://aimsurplus.com/aim-ar15-m16-h4x-223-5-56-9310-mpi-bolt-carrier-group/
Fixed the link (you had the URL copied and pasted twice).
Again, I'd rather buy a Centurion Arms BCG for $25 more. It's a known-good product from a company founded and run by a highly-regarded ex-Navy SEAL who builds ARs designed for hard duty. Is $25 really so much to ask for that peace of mind?
Sionics BCGs are pretty cheap at primary arms and also include Ned’s OCKS.
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If you've been paying attention, a lot of folks are saying their PSA's run fine, on this forum and others.
I think that at this point PSA's model - quantity sales - ought to be obvious.
Do they have the QC in place that BCM, Sionics and others have? No, probably not. But what they do have is several times the combined sales of BCM, Sionics and several others. I believe the Nazi's would have called the PSA Freedom line Volkssturmgewehr, Ford would call them Escorts.
Point being, they work fine for most folks.
Don't be this guy: (I think I saw this in a mem on pistol forum and modified it a little)
It's day eleven of the Apocalypse.
You've escaped into the hills with your supplies, and are crouching in some bushes watching with your Nightforce equipped long boi to see if you've been followed. Nobody could spot your ghillie suit from this hide.
All of a sudden, you hear a crack, frome closer than you'd expect. There's a sharp pain in your neck as the TulAmmo FMJ round tears it's way through. You've been hit by Boogaloo Bob, with his UTG decked out PSA.
You feel the wet heat as he looms inches from your face, dropping crumbs on the ground all around you. His voice creaks with moistness. 'Just as good' he whispers, stepping over your body as everything fades to black. He reaches out for your weapon with his Cheeto stained fingers. The last thing you feel - his NCSTAR sling gliding over your face.
Good one!
Say no to PSA.
Beyond the specs, it's the QC.
I am fairly certain on WHO makes their bcgs, but it doesn't much matter. One shop can make the same product to different specs for different contracts.
So are you saying PSA ask for specs that are not up to spec? If you know WHO makes the PSA bcg on sale, why can't you say, or why won't you say.
I think any BCG can have a QC slip up. But the more a company sells the more chance of a QC misshap. It's math.
There is truth to you get what you pay for. Sometimes you don't get what you paid for, even when over paying for a high end logo, on the same BCG.
Any platform that needs to be reliable needs to be tested & maintained, low$$ or high$$.
Longevity / high round count is another story, quality usually shines there.
You’re being far too rational...
You know some people won't put up with anyone being rational when talking about PSA, that would be crossing a line in their pink sand.
I don't get the lack of love for PSA, they do what they say their about.
Getting decent AR's at a decent price into decent Americans hands.
I think that's mighty.... Decent!
PSA is currently selling nitride MOE uppers for $300 and complete MOE lowers with the polished/plated triggers for $150. Common sense should indicate you don't get Colt/BCM/SOLGW/KAK/LMT/DD level of parts, QC, or assembly for that kind of money.
What you do get is an OK basic gun and c'mon, man - $450 for a turn key basic AR with decent warranty/customer service.
Andy
My recommendation is Sionics.
1. They stake well
2. They use Ned's enhanced carrier key screws
3. Their dimensions / tolerances are all very tight in the examples I own, as gauged by me
I don't know that there is a better option right now than Sionics for a BCG.
If they're too expensive for you, wait for a sale and pick up a couple. I did just that and am very impressed with the quality of their product.
Are any of the psa brand BCG worth it over another name brand for the price?
the one they im reading on is listed as a M16 PROFILE CARPENTER 158 MAG PHOSPHATED 5.56 NATO MPI FULL-AUTO BOLT CARRIER GROUP
For AR-15 and M16 rifles and carbines. Made by one of the large popular OEM BCG makers who is also a military supplier. These BCGs are available due to a large OEM order being canceled. We purchased them all and are making them available to you at an incredible price. Their loss is your gain!
These feature a Carpenter 158 Bolt, and a full profile chrome lined carrier. Bolt is made of shot-peened, Mil-spec Carpenter 158® steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked. The bolt carrier is parkerized outside and chrome lined inside.
So who makes it if its a "large popular" maker?
AO precison and call it a day. While the PSA bolt is fine, go with a proven winner imho
PSA has had and still has, QC related issues. Friends don't let friends buy PSA. You can build for a better rifle for comparable money imho. It's a tool, tools should never be skimped on as you regret it later. I know some with psa that are fine, run well and others where they don't and needed fixing. For a little more, you can get better imho
good luck
See my previous post in this thread on page 1. The AO I bought from R2B last fall eroded 2 gas rings around 1,200 rounds. Since then the carrier and gas rings (still using the AO bolt) were replaced with parts from SOLGW and I've had no additional problems. R2B has offered to replace the carrier, and I'll likely take them up on that offer as AO Precision has not returned any of my calls or emails regarding the problem.
Is it systemic? Unknown, my sample size of 1 was still chugging along on a single gas ring after 500 rds at Rainier Arms' Carbine II in early March.
every company makes a lemon but AO is beyond respected as a top BCG maker. It's nearly confirmed that Colt has used, and continues to use, their BCGs. I only use Colt/AO/FN BCGs in my rigs and have yet to have a bolt break under 18k rounds nor any issues with gas rings that wasn't due to normal usage and wear. I just swapped a bolt at 21k (is still fine but my shooting schedule demands it) and rings were replaced (on that bolt) at 15k. Barrel (socom) being swapped this weekend at 25k and although still within mil standard for accuracy, it's definitely opened up. Ammo used was wolf, AE 5.56 and Wolf Gold.
Pretty sure PSA premium is FN and reviews are outstanding on those
QC is not perfect for anyone, anyone that thinks so is a fool (general comment). All of these parts are going to fail at some point:)
So I know that this horse has been beat to death on PSA, and some people will not take the criticism at face value, fine. I just want more understanding of PSA's quality practices, I remember awhile back some gun Utuber, went to the Smith and Wesson factory and they would take a rifle from a lot of 25 and inspect and test it for certain quality criteria, when it passed they would pass the whole lot. Noveske used to do this (not sure if they still do) with 1 in 8 of their rifles, and BCM was like 1 and 10 of certain parts, I do not know their exact quality controls for rifles. These companies, S&W, Noveske and BCM are all ISO 9000 certified, and I think they have to be for large scale government contracts (I don't know if BCM has these contracts but know they are ISO 9000 cert.). This is the same with DD, KAC, Colt, Geissele and others. I don't believe PSA is, and further more, I would like to know if their suppliers are. They might use FN barrels, are those barrels manufactured, and QC'd the same as their government contract barrels are? BCGs, etc, all fall under the same questions.
Apparently you have little experience sneaking crunchy food while in close proximity to your wife or kids. It can be done.
This is correct ^ and contrary to popular belief, coffee totally mask the smell of a fresh reese cup.
Stopsign32v
12-21-21, 18:57
So I know that this horse has been beat to death on PSA, and some people will not take the criticism at face value, fine. I just want more understanding of PSA's quality practices, I remember awhile back some gun Utuber, went to the Smith and Wesson factory and they would take a rifle from a lot of 25 and inspect and test it for certain quality criteria, when it passed they would pass the whole lot. Noveske used to do this (not sure if they still do) with 1 in 8 of their rifles, and BCM was like 1 and 10 of certain parts, I do not know their exact quality controls for rifles. These companies, S&W, Noveske and BCM are all ISO 9000 certified, and I think they have to be for large scale government contracts (I don't know if BCM has these contracts but know they are ISO 9000 cert.). This is the same with DD, KAC, Colt, Geissele and others. I don't believe PSA is, and further more, I would like to know if their suppliers are. They might use FN barrels, are those barrels manufactured, and QC'd the same as their government contract barrels are? BCGs, etc, all fall under the same questions.
PSA is like the Walmart of ARs, and that is obvious. I'm 15 minutes driving distance from their store and can tell you first hand that you are getting what you pay for. As long as you know that going into it, there is really nothing wrong with PSA. Good example is I got one of their 10.5 Uppers and immediately went out to my car to open it up and inspect it. (you get it sealed in a box from their Columbia warehouse 1.5 hours away) I looked it over and yep, the top of the receiver was chipped and missing metal. Went back in and showed it to them. The guy immediately went to get another from the back and opened it for me. Rear near the charging handle looked like it was gouged by a tool, NEXT. Finally I ended up taking the display piece because (surprise) it looked the best. Had I ordered online and received it I would have been highly pissed.
You have to remember their labor pool is Columbia and at their price point I can about guarantee you they have a bunch of hood rats working for their assembly.
NWcityguy2
12-21-21, 19:27
These companies, S&W, Noveske and BCM are all ISO 9000 certified, and I think they have to be for large scale government contracts (I don't know if BCM has these contracts but know they are ISO 9000 cert.). This is the same with DD, KAC, Colt, Geissele and others. I don't believe PSA is, and further more, I would like to know if their suppliers are. They might use FN barrels, are those barrels manufactured, and QC'd the same as their government contract barrels are? BCGs, etc, all fall under the same questions.
I'm unable to find anywhere BCM says they are ISO 9000 certified. Could you please post your source?
So are you saying PSA ask for specs that are not up to spec? If you know WHO makes the PSA bcg on sale, why can't you say, or why won't you say.
I think any BCG can have a QC slip up. But the more a company sells the more chance of a QC misshap...
Pretty sure that PSA has lower standards as for what they would accept vs a more reputable company buying from the same carrier manufacturer.
Meaning PSA may accept a carrier made by 'company A' that was a little blemished or wonky where the other company selling carriers made by 'company A' would reject the same stuff and send it back.
So if you are company A and making those carriers and a batch comes out a little 'off' you know that instead of scrapping them or trying to send them to a company that you know would reject them - You set them to the side to go to PSA at a discount.
If you really want to see some good examples of 'problem stuff' they send out the door head over to ar15.com and go the PSA forum in their Industry Section. Spend a few minutes each day (for about a week or two) checking that PSA section and reading the 'problem' threads. A lot of times people there will share pictures of the junk they have received in those threads and while their customer service is on the ball and those 'problems' are usually quickly resolved (parts or firearms replaced) after a while you just start to wonder how in the hell some of that stuff makes it out the door in the first place.
NWcityguy2
12-21-21, 20:48
Pretty sure that PSA has lower standards as for what they would accept vs a more reputable company buying from the same carrier manufacturer.
Meaning PSA may accept a carrier made by 'company A' that was a little blemished or wonky where the other company selling carriers made by 'company A' would reject the same stuff and send it back.
So if you are company A and making those carriers and a batch comes out a little 'off' you know that instead of scrapping them or trying to send them to a company that you know would reject them - You set them to the side to go to PSA at a discount.
If you really want to see some good examples of 'problem stuff' they send out the door head over to ar15.com and go the PSA forum in their Industry Section. Spend a few minutes each day (for about a week or two) checking that PSA section and reading the 'problem' threads. A lot of times people there will share pictures of the junk they have received in those threads and while their customer service is on the ball and those 'problems' are usually quickly resolved (parts or firearms replaced) after a while you just start to wonder how in the hell some of that stuff makes it out the door in the first place.
Nothing says confidence like using a speculative word at the start of every paragraph.
NWcityguy2
12-21-21, 20:49
Double tap
PSA is like the Walmart of ARs, and that is obvious. I'm 15 minutes driving distance from their store and can tell you first hand that you are getting what you pay for. As long as you know that going into it, there is really nothing wrong with PSA. Good example is I got one of their 10.5 Uppers and immediately went out to my car to open it up and inspect it. (you get it sealed in a box from their Columbia warehouse 1.5 hours away) I looked it over and yep, the top of the receiver was chipped and missing metal. Went back in and showed it to them. The guy immediately went to get another from the back and opened it for me. Rear near the charging handle looked like it was gouged by a tool, NEXT. Finally I ended up taking the display piece because (surprise) it looked the best. Had I ordered online and received it I would have been highly pissed.
You have to remember their labor pool is Columbia and at their price point I can about guarantee you they have a bunch of hood rats working for their assembly.
hood rats...lol
Nothing says confidence like using a speculative word at the start of every paragraph.
He may have been speculating as to how PSA gets stuff done, but there is no speculation as to the results. Not everything PSA releases is crap, but there is no doubt that they produce an inordinate amount of it. Could you buy PSA and have no problems for 10k rounds? Absolutely. But your chances of buying poorly specced and poorly assembled parts and receivers are much higher than with almost any other manufacturer except maybe Century Arms.
You get what you pay for, don't kid yourself.
NWcityguy2
12-21-21, 21:34
He may have been speculating as to how PSA gets stuff done, but there is no speculation as to the results. Not everything PSA releases is crap, but there is no doubt that they produce an inordinate amount of it. Could you buy PSA and have no problems for 10k rounds? Absolutely. But your chances of buying poorly specced and poorly assembled parts and receivers are much higher than with almost any other manufacturer except maybe Century Arms.
You get what you pay for, don't kid yourself.
Are you arguing with me about things I didn't write?
Are you arguing with me about things I didn't write?Possibly. I inferred that you were saying he was speculating regarding PSA's quality/quality control. May have read too much into what you wrote.
Diamondback
12-21-21, 21:42
PSA? At comparable price, get a Toolcraft C158 from Arm or Ally.
NWcityguy2
12-21-21, 21:43
Possibly. I inferred that you were saying he was speculating regarding PSA's quality/quality control. May have read too much into what you wrote.
He literally was speculating.
He literally was speculating.Yes, he was indeed speculating regarding their QC procedures, but as I wrote, there is no speculation as to their actual quality.
Stopsign32v
12-21-21, 22:01
PSA? At comparable price, get a Toolcraft C158 from Arm or Ally.
Toolcraft is a sister company of PSA according to them. So you are getting the same thing with PSA vs Toolcraft.
He may have been speculating as to how PSA gets stuff done, but there is no speculation as to the results. Not everything PSA releases is crap, but there is no doubt that they produce an inordinate amount of it. Could you buy PSA and have no problems for 10k rounds? Absolutely. But your chances of buying poorly specced and poorly assembled parts and receivers are much higher than with almost any other manufacturer except maybe Century Arms.
You get what you pay for, don't kid yourself.
Even within PSA and the stuff they sell - They have different lines of quality / price.
Custom, Premium, Classic, Freedom... Prices and quality going from left to right there...
NWcityguy2
12-21-21, 22:04
Yes, he was indeed speculating regarding their QC procedures, but as I wrote, there is no speculation as to their actual quality.
I am 100% sure people speculate as to PSA's actual quality. I have seen it with my own eyes on this very forum.
Toolcraft is a sister company of PSA according to them.
Them being Toolcraft, or PSA?
Diamondback
12-21-21, 22:16
Them being Toolcraft, or PSA?
JJE has been buying gun companies like kids chasing baseball cards... Toolcraft has a CAGE code for supplying complete spare BCG's to DOD, and AoA set the spec for the ones they order at "change to nitride coating otherwise make 'em to the same spec as the Army's."
JJE's H&R arm just acquired NoDak Spud... this worries me, they look to be becoming the new Cerberus Group. What do we know about them and their major owners?
Stopsign32v
12-21-21, 22:47
JJE has been buying gun companies like kids chasing baseball cards... Toolcraft has a CAGE code for supplying complete spare BCG's to DOD, and AoA set the spec for the ones they order at "change to nitride coating otherwise make 'em to the same spec as the Army's."
JJE's H&R arm just acquired NoDak Spud... this worries me, they look to be becoming the new Cerberus Group. What do we know about them and their major owners?
I don't think JJE owns Toolcraft (yet) but they are a sister company with PSA straight out of a manager at PSA's mouth. I would assume that all PSA bolts were Toolcraft but cannot confirm this. Toolcraft does make bolts for other OEMs so it only makes sense that PSA has them make theirs too unless PSA has found a cheaper equally quality option.
I do believe either way that PSA bolts are G2G.
Diamondback
12-21-21, 23:05
"Sister company" usually means wholly owned by same parent. For example, the Peoria & Eastern and Boston & Albany RR's along with Despatch Shops carbuilder and Flexi-Van trailer/container transport at 90+% ownership under the New York Central umbrella would be "sisters" but the 60% NYC/40% Milwaukee Road-split Indiana Harbor Belt and the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie RR were not despite being other majority-owned subsidiaries.
I don't think JJE owns Toolcraft (yet) but they are a sister company with PSA straight out of a manager at PSA's mouth. I would assume that all PSA bolts were Toolcraft but cannot confirm this. Toolcraft does make bolts for other OEMs so it only makes sense that PSA has them make theirs too unless PSA has found a cheaper equally quality option.
I do believe either way that PSA bolts are G2G.
toolcraft does not make bolts, only carriers
I'm unable to find anywhere BCM says they are ISO 9000 certified. Could you please post your source?
Look up Waukesha Machine and Tool and/or W/S Machine and tool, their the sister company that does the finalizing of BCM parts. W/S does make all ADMs mounts and also works with Mid-West in some capacity as well
"Sister company" usually means wholly owned by same parent. For example, the Peoria & Eastern and Boston & Albany RR's along with Despatch Shops carbuilder and Flexi-Van trailer/container transport at 90+% ownership under the New York Central umbrella would be "sisters" but the 60% NYC/40% Milwaukee Road-split Indiana Harbor Belt and the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie RR were not despite being other majority-owned subsidiaries.
You usually have sister companies and affiliates, a sister company or subsidiary, are companies owned or majority controlled by the same company but diversify in product roles. If PSA owns Toolcraft then PSA has a clear supply of bolts, while any further more manufactured can be sold to other companies and both PSA and Toolcraft profit.
NWcityguy2
12-22-21, 09:06
Thank you, I will.
toolcraft does not make bolts, only carriers
Who makes the bolts?
Who makes the bolts?
no one knows for sure but it's well known toolcraft does not and they've confirmed this on their site. It is suspected to be AO and one other but the name escapes me (want to say aizmuth). The 1b1b carriers all are the same spec as colt and fn (non nitride, carp 158, etc)
regardless, toolcraft is carrier only
There's a company called "Azimuth Technologies" that also makes BCG's (including bolts, apparently), but you don't hear their name mentioned very often:
https://www.azimuthtechnology.com/products-and-services/bolt-carrier-groups/
There's a company called "Azimuth Technologies" that also makes BCG's (including bolts, apparently), but you don't hear their name mentioned very often:
https://www.azimuthtechnology.com/products-and-services/bolt-carrier-groups/
you'd be surprised who they make BCGs for. Aizmuth is the lion behind the bush so to speak.
The_War_Wagon
12-22-21, 09:58
I bought a PSA for a spare in the early days of the Obamanation scare. Still sitting in an oiled bag in my safe
I bought a few Toolcraft spare BCGs I replaced my home built AR that had a BCM BCG with a Toolcraft BCG and it works fine so far. Only have fired 400 using it. The BCM BCG has over 3k worth of rounds though it.
NWcityguy2
12-22-21, 15:57
no one knows for sure but it's well known toolcraft does not and they've confirmed this on their site. It is suspected to be AO and one other but the name escapes me (want to say aizmuth). The 1b1b carriers all are the same spec as colt and fn (non nitride, carp 158, etc)
regardless, toolcraft is carrier only
I have never seen a C158 carrier. 8620 is the standard carrier material.
you'd be surprised who they make BCGs for. Aizmuth is the lion behind the bush so to speak.
Probably almost everyone. It doesn't make much sense to have lots of companies doing this in such a relatively small market.
Stopsign32v
12-22-21, 16:27
Probably almost everyone. It doesn't make much sense to have lots of companies doing this in such a relatively small market.
Correct
Same thing with lowers and uppers from what I understand.
From Azimuth's website:
"Azimuth BCGs are designed and manufactured to outperform other BCGs in the field. Azimuth currently manufactures BCGs for over 75 respected firearms Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), ensuring extremely accurate, reliable and dependable operation when needed most."
Heck, I didn't know there were 75 OEM's in the business.
I have never seen a C158 carrier. 8620 is the standard carrier material.
bolts not carriers, I could have been more clear but since we were talking about the bolts I thought that was assumed. apologies for any confusion
the 1b1b carriers came with the correct bolts
Probably almost everyone. It doesn't make much sense to have lots of companies doing this in such a relatively small market.
agree
AO precison and call it a day. While the PSA bolt is fine, go with a proven winner imho
PSA has had and still has, QC related issues. Friends don't let friends buy PSA. You can build for a better rifle for comparable money imho. It's a tool, tools should never be skimped on as you regret it later. I know some with psa that are fine, run well and others where they don't and needed fixing. For a little more, you can get better imho
good luck
I partly agree, but if you buy the "premium" PSA not the freedom line you get FN barrel a decent BCG mil spec upper & lower. Mine even had the mil spec dry film lube applied. I also seen Aero precision "blemished" with rough machine work in upper receiver, blemished is "cosmetic only".
Any company can put out shoddy parts it's making it right, & minimize the mistakes.
I partly agree, but if you buy the "premium" PSA not the freedom line you get FN barrel a decent BCG mil spec upper & lower. Mine even had the mil spec dry film lube applied. I also seen Aero precision "blemished" with rough machine work in upper receiver, blemished is "cosmetic only".
Any company can put out shoddy parts it's making it right, & minimize the mistakes.
no doubt, any company can and has put out some lemons. The problem with psa is it's frequent enough to just say no. I'd rather Anderson than psa but the lowest I go is Aero Precision as the quality for the price is unbeatable imho
NWcityguy2
12-28-21, 19:46
Where is your real world pool of experiences coming from?
I ask because I'm the president of a competitive club and have been running multigun matches since 2014. I've seen lots of PSA freedom guns cone through the club and function just fine. As I said, I've got 7 years of match director experience.
I've literally seen one DPMS lower have trouble, a bunch of guns of all kinds have trouble with steel cased ammo, and some DIY projects go wrong.
turnburglar
12-29-21, 12:40
Where is your real world pool of experiences coming from?
I ask because I'm the president of a competitive club and have been running multigun matches since 2014. I've seen lots of PSA freedom guns cone through the club and function just fine. As I said, I've got 7 years of match director experience.
I've literally seen one DPMS lower have trouble, a bunch of guns of all kinds have trouble with steel cased ammo, and some DIY projects go wrong.
Yea, I have 2 PSA kit guns that I shoot in local club matches all the time and they never have had a hiccup. In fact I would be willing to argue that kit guns from PSA will run even better because they get a little more attention during assembly.
I feel like the people that really trash on brands simply dont shoot that much; cause if they did they would know almost all AR's run fine in this day and age. And if your AR isn't running fine, its never more than $25 worth of springs and maybe the right buffer to fix it.
I feel like the people that really trash on brands simply dont shoot that much; cause if they did they would know almost all AR's run fine in this day and age.
I respectfully disagree. While the AR is a phenomenal platform and is far more robust than people give it credit for I have seen all sorts of issues with all sorts of ARs. I have seen ARs from Triac, Springfields, DPMS, Aero, Bushmasters, etc, all fail either due to conditions such as mud or dust, parts wear, inefficiencies in QC. I do not shoot matches, so I am not 100% sure the kind of conditions you are running your rifles through, but take 1 or 2 classes a year, as well as shoot quite a bit in the woods of Northern MN and Wisconsin with friends (think Nutnfancy run and guns), and have seen issues from mud, rain, and snow stop magazines and cause stoppages in my Smith & Wesson M&P 10 as well as a PWS DI upper.
There are many other threads going over the topic of PSA and their QC issues on these boards, I can only share my experience. I have had multiple orders from PSA that came to me either incorrect or missing parts from 2013-2016, specifically was the rifle length buffer for an A4 build that I did. Missing the detent springs for a LPK. Improperly aligned gas block on a barrel from a 10.5 premium complete upper I ordered. The main issue I have had from them was a complete lower I bought during a sale in 2015, which has an obvious 'shelf' in aluminum the magwell that would not easily accept any mags and would allow any mags to drop free. Both the gas block and lower issues were not accepted as I had changed out furniture and the muzzle devise, which wouldn't have caused the problem. I was successful with Customer service on the first 2 issues, the rest I had a gunsmith resolve. I still own the lower today.
I am happy that PSA is putting lots of ARs into the hands of average citizens and thumbing their nose at the current administration and gun control advocates, but it is not a brand that I would go to in a life or death situation.
NWcityguy2
12-29-21, 15:19
I'm pretty sure most of us who are discussing PSA in general aren't counting environmental factors. I see you list a number of brands you've seen these problems with, but not PSA. Even putting that aside, all ARs have a weakness to any material that enters from the outside. Brand doesn't change the amount of free space inside the receivers.
Also, I don't ding a rifle for an owner who doesn't lube it, doesn't clean it, dials down the gas block too much, uses old mags, shoots blunt nose bullets, etc.
I'm pretty sure most of us who are discussing PSA in general aren't counting environmental factors.
Environmental factors can be in itself a factor of a failure. but quality controls and quality of parts, quality of design and manufacture can all help mitigate the exasperated effects of environmental factors. Dust is going to get in a rifle during classes where you are shooting from underneath cars, in various prone positions, etc. You just want to ensure that the quality of parts and manufacture have allowed these tolerances to be stressed by such.
If PSA works for you, great, but I can only speak to my personnel experiences and they are a no-go for me.
NWcityguy2
12-29-21, 16:11
Now you're just generalizing with the word quality thrown in a few times.
Now you're just generalizing with the word quality thrown in a few times.
You make me laugh,;). Its cool, you've never worked in manufacturing or operations before, I get it. Again, if you like your PSA fine, but don't get butt hurt that I'm not going to validate your opinion.
newtriumph
12-29-21, 16:24
I respectfully disagree. While the AR is a phenomenal platform and is far more robust than people give it credit for I have seen all sorts of issues with all sorts of ARs. I have seen ARs from Triac, Springfields, DPMS, Aero, Bushmasters, etc, all fail either due to conditions such as mud or dust, parts wear, inefficiencies in QC. I do not shoot matches, so I am not 100% sure the kind of conditions you are running your rifles through, but take 1 or 2 classes a year, as well as shoot quite a bit in the woods of Northern MN and Wisconsin with friends (think Nutnfancy run and guns), and have seen issues from mud, rain, and snow stop magazines and cause stoppages in my Smith & Wesson M&P 10 as well as a PWS DI upper.
There are many other threads going over the topic of PSA and their QC issues on these boards, I can only share my experience. I have had multiple orders from PSA that came to me either incorrect or missing parts from 2013-2016, specifically was the rifle length buffer for an A4 build that I did. Missing the detent springs for a LPK. Improperly aligned gas block on a barrel from a 10.5 premium complete upper I ordered. The main issue I have had from them was a complete lower I bought during a sale in 2015, which has an obvious 'shelf' in aluminum the magwell that would not easily accept any mags and would allow any mags to drop free. Both the gas block and lower issues were not accepted as I had changed out furniture and the muzzle devise, which wouldn't have caused the problem. I was successful with Customer service on the first 2 issues, the rest I had a gunsmith resolve. I still own the lower today.
I am happy that PSA is putting lots of ARs into the hands of average citizens and thumbing their nose at the current administration and gun control advocates, but it is not a brand that I would go to in a life or death situation.
It seems like these are two separate issues - failures from poor to decent reputation guns and then initial quality issues from PSA. It seems like the issue people would most be concerned about here would be unexpected mid life failures due to poor QC deep in manufacturing that don’t appear until later.
There seem to be three camps:
1. Only 10 year old colts and everything else is likely a ticking time bomb.
2. Everything is good once you work the teething out because manufacturing isn’t that complicated, stuff is made in only a few factories and with effort you can make anything duty ready.
3. In addition to (less worrying since it’s apparent) initial quality, sampling theory is applied by the better brands and are materially less likely to fail mid life. That sampling theory is applied to ensure quality far down the left tail in cots products for brands who do wish to do so - and that many good manufacturers exist - eg the usual players.
I tend to see merit in all three arguments and know that going for a jog has a better chance of getting me duty ready than likely worrying about any of these. But I’m also blessed to be able to afford to indulge in the path of lease resistance and what for me is the most fun - so I’m in camp two. (I own a business and know that I take good care of my customers and where I could cut corners but choose not to.)
Any data is useful so I’d be curious what guns you are comfortable with as duty ready after a dozen magazines worth of hard use?
NWcityguy2
12-29-21, 16:33
You make me laugh,;). Its cool, you've never worked in manufacturing or operations before, I get it. Again, if you like your PSA fine, but don't get butt hurt that I'm not going to validate your opinion.
Yeah, I don't manufacture anything. Still though, your thoughts aren't getting any more specific. Tell me, how do I pick up an AR and qualify it as trustworthy based on your standard?
It seems like these are two separate issues - failures from poor to decent reputation guns and then initial quality issues from PSA. It seems like the issue people would most be concerned about here would be unexpected mid life failures due to poor QC deep in manufacturing that don’t appear until later.
There seem to be three camps:
1. Only 10 year old colts and everything else is likely a ticking time bomb.
2. Everything is good once you work the teething out because manufacturing isn’t that complicated, stuff is made in only a few factories and with effort you can make anything duty ready.
3. In addition to (less worrying since it’s apparent) initial quality, sampling theory is applied by the better brands and are materially less likely to fail mid life. That sampling theory is applied to ensure quality far down the left tail in cots products for brands who do wish to do so - and that many good manufacturers exist - eg the usual players.
I tend to see merit in all three arguments and know that going for a jog has a better chance of getting me duty ready than likely worrying about any of these. But I’m also blessed to be able to afford to indulge in the path of lease resistance and what for me is the most fun - so I’m in camp two. (I own a business and know that I take good care of my customers and where I could cut corners but choose not to.)
Any data is useful so I’d be curious what guns you are comfortable with as duty ready after a dozen magazines worth of hard use?
Fair enough to your first point about 2 separate issues. I really haven't run a good amount of the PSA products save the 10.5 upper which probably had about 600-700rds before I sold it, and I am not happy with their quality controls out of the box, for reasons I stated above.
I wouldn't say that you could make anything 'duty ready' but I see your point, an Anderson lower with a BCM lower parts kit and a Geissele trigger is probably going to be more 'duty ready' than say a S&W M&P Sport, however the robustness of the lower and ensuring specifications and quality controls are in place to ensure that the lower is manufactured properly is most likely along the same lines.
I would for the most part echo what others have on this forum, which is that I would much rather trust a brand with clear and known quality controls in place, say BCM, DD, Colt (at least from 2012-2018), FN, etc. I honestly have had quality issues from DD, and ADM, and S&W in the past as well. My first rifle was a DD M4V5 which I purchased mainly because of this forum, and it had issues with the Lower similar to Mrgunsandgear (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzkUr2JYx6Q) and DD took care it in the middle of the Newtown panic no questions asked. The rifle itself has been flawless and it being my oldest has the most rounds (9-10k) with the only failures being caused by a few boxes of Winchester white box 55gr that would not fire after multiple primer strikes. I really like my buddies Ballistic Advantage 13.9 build and he shoots double what I do, and that upper on an Aero lower was probably $750-$850 for a total build, which I don't think unreasonable, but still maintains quality for the price.
Honestly, I get why people like PSA, I really do. Just as my father in law loves his DPMS from 2014, but him taking it out of the safe and shooting it in a manner that doesn't stress the rifle or the shooter doesn't really tell you the limitations or give you the best understanding of it's full capabilities.
Yeah, I don't manufacture anything. Still though, your thoughts aren't getting any more specific. Tell me, how do I pick up an AR and qualify it as trustworthy based on your standard?
I have done this already on this thread, please read this thread as well as the many other PSA threads on this forum.
NWcityguy2
12-29-21, 17:33
That's about what I expected from the person talking about "the quality of the quality from the qualities in the quality".
I just looked at my PSA account. from 2014 to date, I've spent over $5,726.00 with them.
The only thing that I can bitch about is a 10.5 inch 22LR upper I bought from them for less than a CMMG conversion cost. Functioned fine, just not accurate.
Of course, all of that money didn't go for PSA branded stuff, but I've ordered enough from them to know that if it's in stock, they don't take a lot of time to ship. And unlike my experiences with several companies, I've never been shorted on anything.
PSA and wcarmory are virtually the only place I buy BCG's from - toolcraft, you know - and I've been completely satisfied with the several dozen I've bought from them.
My interactions with PSA have been positive, I have no reason to complain. My favorite FSB rifle, a stainless mid-length is based on a complete PSA upper, it's a laser and in general one of the rifles I enjoy the most.
By and large, I've been happy with virtually every on-line purchase I've made, from BCN, Sionics, ALG, Brownell's. Geissele, LaRue, Aero, MI, etc.
I'm sorry some of you guys have such bad luck.
That's about what I expected from the person talking about "the quality of the quality from the qualities in the quality".
I can understand why a PSA fan would have an issue with that word.;)
@Moderators please do your thing
NWcityguy2
12-29-21, 18:00
@Moderators please do your thing
If you're done with the conversations then just leave the conversation.
Some pictures of 'Premium' junk they sent out not terribly long ago -
https://i.imgur.com/aridCxx.jpg
Aside of the dent in the gas key notice the chewed up cam pin slot in that one...
https://i.imgur.com/6jpyyEs.jpg
This one has a chewed up gas key as well but also notice the milling on the bolt face... WTF did they mill that with?
You guys defending PSA can keep all of their garbage. I sure as heck will not mess with any of it. :)
Honestly, I get why people like PSA, I really do. Just as my father in law loves his DPMS from 2014, but him taking it out of the safe and shooting it in a manner that doesn't stress the rifle or the shooter doesn't really tell you the limitations or give you the best understanding of it's full capabilities.
I have plenty of DPMS stuff bought from them way back in their beginning (best quality) to right up before they got bought out by freedom group and they have never, I repeat NEVER sent out garbage like PSA regularly does.
After freedom group they started swirling the toilet bowl but prior to that they were not so bad. Certainly not in the same category as PSA.
Some pictures of 'Premium' junk they sent out not terribly long ago -
https://i.imgur.com/aridCxx.jpg
Aside of the dent in the gas key notice the chewed up cam pin slot in that one...
https://i.imgur.com/6jpyyEs.jpg
This one has a chewed up gas key as well but also notice the milling on the bolt face... WTF did they mill that with?
You guys defending PSA can keep all of their garbage. I sure as heck will not mess with any of it. :)
First one seems like it could be an issue, but the second looks like pure cosmetics. PSA does not carry the price tag to be pretty so there's no reason it should be. Did you reach out to their CS about the first one?
no doubt, any company can and has put out some lemons. The problem with psa is it's frequent enough to just say no. I'd rather Anderson than psa but the lowest I go is Aero Precision as the quality for the price is unbeatable imho
I have experience with two cheap PSA uppers and BCGs and one Aero rifle. The Aero did not work properly out of the box, both PSAs did. I'd take PSA over anything Aero (aside from stripped lowers) because they're cheaper and have worked better IME.
First one seems like it could be an issue, but the second looks like pure cosmetics. PSA does not carry the price tag to be pretty so there's no reason it should be. Did you reach out to their CS about the first one?
So you can have something to compare to:
https://i.imgur.com/xOYVPHU.jpg
DPMS on left and BCM on right:
https://i.imgur.com/yzWzMYX.jpg
Neither of these makes me feel the need to 'reach out to customer service'.
I have experience with two cheap PSA uppers and BCGs and one Aero rifle. The Aero did not work properly out of the box, both PSAs did. I'd take PSA over anything Aero (aside from stripped lowers) because they're cheaper and have worked better IME.
lol,, that's funny, you're the island I see. No one is choosing psa over aero
just remember, friends don't let friends buy psa
You guys should read the industry forum for psa on arfcom regularly, it's 'interesting' to say the least. I stopped using their parts after having too many issues with parts being defective or having to use a bit to open up takedown pin holes or the like. Can't tell you how many friends and guys from the county pds brought their psa garbage asking 'can you fix this'. My 2 favorites were a complete upper a buddy bought that had no gas hole in the barrel or the lower with a missing piece to the ear. How the fk does anyone miss that one? No need to get into past etc, I just stay away. those that buy their stuff, no issues with that you do with your money and wish you luck.
We all buy cheap from time to time for various reasons; it has it's place.
So you can have something to compare to:
https://i.imgur.com/xOYVPHU.jpg
DPMS on left and BCM on right:
https://i.imgur.com/yzWzMYX.jpg
Neither of these makes me feel the need to 'reach out to customer service'.
speaking of dpms, older dpms barrels definitely punched above the belt imho.
So you can have something to compare to:
https://i.imgur.com/xOYVPHU.jpg
DPMS on left and BCM on right:
https://i.imgur.com/yzWzMYX.jpg
Neither of these makes me feel the need to 'reach out to customer service'.
BCM bolts are $80. The cheapest complete BCGs on their site right now are the same price down to the dollar. Also I don't know why I need anything to compare to since I have many BCM and other high quality BCGs.
lol,, that's funny, your' the island I see
just remember, friends don't let friends buy psa
You guys should read the industry forum for psa regularly, it's 'interesting' to say the least. I stopped using their parts after having too many issues with parts being defective or having to use a bit to open up takedown pin holes or the like. Can't tell you how many friends and guys from the county pds brought their psa garbage asking 'can you fix this'. My 2 favorites were a complete upper a buddy bought that had no gas hole in the barrel or the lower with a missing piece to the ear. How the fk does anyone miss that one? No need to get into past etc, I just stay away. those that buy their stuff, no issues with that you do with your money and wish you luck.
We all buy cheap from time to time for various reasons; it has it's place.
That's my point. I will never say that PSA doesn't put out some shit, or argue that they may or may not put out a higher quantity of shit vs better brands, but the older I've gotten, the more I've accepted that there are reasons to go cheap and PSA is the best way to do that IMO.
I have plenty of DPMS stuff bought from them way back in their beginning (best quality) to right up before they got bought out by freedom group and they have never, I repeat NEVER sent out garbage like PSA regularly does.
After freedom group they started swirling the toilet bowl but prior to that they were not so bad. Certainly not in the same category as PSA.
This is my understanding as well, they where purchased by the Freedom Group in in 2007 and quality, especially on the civilian side, dropped.
I have plenty of DPMS stuff bought from them way back in their beginning (best quality) to right up before they got bought out by freedom group and they have never, I repeat NEVER sent out garbage like PSA regularly does.
After freedom group they started swirling the toilet bowl but prior to that they were not so bad. Certainly not in the same category as PSA.
This is my understanding as well, they where purchased by the Freedom Group in in 2007 and quality, especially on the civilian side, dropped.
BCM bolts are $80. The cheapest complete BCGs on their site right now are the same price down to the dollar. Also I don't know why I need anything to compare to since I have many BCM and other high quality BCGs.
That's my point. I will never say that PSA doesn't put out some shit, or argue that they may or may not put out a higher quantity of shit vs better brands, but the older I've gotten, the more I've accepted that there are reasons to go cheap and PSA is the best way to do that IMO.
I'll tell you what, BCA has been putting out some cheap stuff that is getting very good reviews across multiple boards. I recently had an itch for x39 build so bought on of their uppers, swapped the handguards and painted the set up. Sucker shoots very well, no issues and just over 1k rounds. I once wanted to see how cheaply I could put together a 308 and did so for close to 400 sourcing parts on EE etc. and various deals. I used one of their ss bull barrels and I paid 60 for it new. I kid you not, that sucker was .85 with fgmm and with DAG, was about 1.4-1.6 consistently. I beat the living snot out of that set up, even left it outside for a month in the snow and rain and didn't clean it. sucker did well. Cheapest lowers I buy are Aero although I have put some rigs together using Anderson lowers and lpk and they were fine, their ss hammer fcg is actually pretty nice.
The older I get, unless I have a specific itch, I prefer to pay for better quality although I'm smart enough and experienced enough to know that price doesn't equal quality and the lemons get through every shop and outstanding items can be found in cheap shops. There is no golden rule here with commoditized and standardized parts really. The only exception is psa, I just won't do it
speaking of good inexpensive items, the schmid tool 2 stage trigger is outstanding. It's the Aero and Centurion ones being sold under their mark for $99. Botach has them for $60. I've got one in a Aero build that is doing nicely. I like quality for less :)
I recently bought some Croatian AK mags from PSA. They can't screw those up :D
speaking of dpms, older dpms barrels definitely punched above the belt imho.
Agree.
And if you wanted any 'extras' done to them before they were shipped your way it would be done and done right. Not always cheap but you definitely got what you paid for.
You guys should read the industry forum for psa regularly, it's 'interesting' to say the least.
Yup.
Pretty sure you mean at AR15.com as they do not have a section in any industry forum here.
Five_Point_Five_Six
12-31-21, 09:40
The older I've got, the less willing I am to gamble on products from companies with a long track record of inconsistent quality just to try to save a few bucks. PSA was put on my no fly list a number of years ago due to my own experiences with them.
The older I've got, the less willing I am to gamble on products from companies with a long track record of inconsistent quality just to try to save a few bucks. PSA was put on my no fly list a number of years ago due to my own experiences with them.
I feel the same way about Botach. I'm all for saving a buck when possible, but if you're giving up quality in exchange, what have you really saved? There's pretty much no such thing as, "just as good as." You get what you pay for.
Yup.
Pretty sure you mean at AR15.com as they do not have a section in any industry forum here.
Yes apologies
I'll amend that. Thx!
I have a PSA Stealth complete lower that I put a Larue MBT in, and then mated that to a PSA premium FN barreled complete upper...
No visible issues that I can see..the staking on the castle nut looks fine and nothing in the feed ramp area.
Haven't shot it yet...as it is the back up gun to the back up, back up gun.
TacticalSpeed
12-31-21, 17:27
My PSA 9mm bolt has zero issues
That is because they are already screwed up before imported. :sarcastic:
zebra20zebra20
01-02-22, 10:31
I've owned several PSA carbines and BCG's throughout the years and have only experienced one problem with them having fired thousands of rounds through them. Even with using a bump stock and doing mag dumps!
turnburglar
01-02-22, 12:09
I actually got bit by the PSA bug this last weekend.
I built a new spare parts AR, and gave it a very sloppy 15 yard zero the day before shooting a match. By the end of the 2nd stage I realized how absolutely dog shit my zero was and asked a buddy to just finish the match with his rifle. To start I want to say: my buddy is an incredibly accomplished shooter that won his class. The gun he brought out that day had a PSA-10 buffer tube because he didn't want to go full bore for the VLTOR a5. During the warm months with a lubed rifle the gun ran fine. When I started shooting his gun during the 50* rain, without lube I started getting frequent malfunctions. Adding some lube made the gun a lot more reliable. Me and him started talking about spring or buffer solutions he could try. Later that day when he got home he looked into the buffer tube and finally realized how badly the inside was marred with machine marks and poorly finished. This improperly finished buffer tube was able to cycle in the warmer weather with lube, but started to induce malfunctions in the cold without lube. This data actually disproves half of my PSA hypothesis, which was: "parts will either work or they won't, there is no sliding scale on quality." Apparently there is. However I still think PSA is a great value as long as you follow one simple rule: "YOU are the one taking responsibility for these parts, and must thoroughly inspect them upon assembly, and RMA all parts found unserviceable". Do all that and PSA is just as good as.....
"YOU are the one taking responsibility for these parts, and must thoroughly inspect them upon assembly, and RMA all parts found unserviceable". Do all that and PSA is just as good as.....
…the sum of all the parts.
SNIP The gun he brought out that day had a PSA-10 buffer tube because he didn't want to go full bore for the VLTOR a5. During the warm months with a lubed rifle the gun ran fine. When I started shooting his gun during the 50* rain, without lube I started getting frequent malfunctions. Adding some lube made the gun a lot more reliable. Me and him started talking about spring or buffer solutions he could try. Later that day when he got home he looked into the buffer tube and finally realized how badly the inside was marred with machine marks and poorly finished. This improperly finished buffer tube was able to cycle in the warmer weather with lube, but started to induce malfunctions in the cold without lube. SNIP
What type of stoppages were y’all having?
Was there no dry-film lube in the tube?
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