View Full Version : Optics advice for my first AR
Just got my first AR, a S & W MP 15.
I was looking for some advice and tips on selecting a scope/sights for the gun, not sure what will serve me best. I cannot afford to spend more than a couple hundred dollars right now. I just need something to get me going.
Will be using the gun for target practice, plinking, hunting hogs, coons, small deer, etc. I would like to be able to shoot with some accuracy out to 200 yards.
I am used to shooting bolt actions and 22's with traditional style scopes.
i found "the chart" and it is an overwhelming amount of info at first but it helped me select this gun over another brand....
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/laangler/DSC00252.jpg
I would like to be able to shoot with some accuracy out to 200 yards.
Nice looking rifle! For your needs, try an Aimpoint T-1 with a LaRue Tactical mount.
Try the optics thread here: https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=13
There is lots of really good imformation to be learned there.
If it's your first AR, and you have NO prior experience or training with an AR. Skip buying an optic. Buy some Training, Ammo, Mags, and it looks like you need a front & rear sight.
Optics are overrated. Nobody in the Military gets an Aimpoint/Eotech on their first day of boot camp.
LaRue Rear Sight
LMT Front Sight.
Submariner
11-23-08, 07:49
If it's your first AR, and you have NO prior experience or training with an AR. Skip buying an optic. Buy some Training, Ammo, Mags, and it looks like you need a front & rear sight.
Optics are overrated. Nobody in the Military gets an Aimpoint/Eotech on their first day of boot camp.
LaRue Rear Sight
LMT Front Sight.
Buy good training: Pat Rogers, LAV or equivalent.
Then you will find out why optics are not over-rated.
I don't think he needs training as he doesn't seem to have plans to use the gun in a combat senario.
Now back to optics. I don't really see the .223 as a 200 yard cartridge.
I have shot mine at 100 yards and have pretty much decided to sight in at 50 yards with my AR guns.
So I like a dot sight. The Aimpoints are my favorite and even though they give no magnification. I dial the dot down really small and put it on the center of the bullseye and I have gotten some really tight groups.
For what you are planing to use your AR for I would sugest a Low power scope.
Say a 2-7 X. Check out Midway usa website. True glo makes one that sould like just the ticket.
RogerinTPA
11-23-08, 08:15
Good advise. I would also go one step further to get some basic carbine training in your local area first that's geared towards beginners. Using the operator's manual, practice breaking down and reassembling the weapon regularly until you can do it without reference. Get some backup Iron sights, master them, then get a Red Dot Sight. I take mine off from time to time so I don't lose the skills of utilizing the Backup Iron Sights. A Pat or LAV class can be a bit much if you don't have a real basic understanding of the weapon and the 4 rules ingrained in your brain. Depending on your skill level and ammo, the .223 is a 500 yard cartridge. FYI, a 50 yard zero has basically the same POA/POI at 200 yards, so the 50 yard zero, for a lot of us, is ideal. There are some training DVD's that can help you out as well. Congratulations on your new purchase.
QUOTE=Submariner;255425]Buy good training: Pat Rogers, LAV or equivalent. Then you will find out why optics are not over-rated.[/QUOTE]
Whole lotta weird in this thread....
LaAngler, if all you have is a couple hundred dollars (guessing $200 or so?) I'd skip the optic and get a set of irons for the gun. There aren't really any $200 optics, with mount, that I believe will last you even through simple plinking. People recommend things like the SPOT, but they tend to fail pretty easily from my observations.
Burris Fullfield II line is an option. I picked up a 2-7X at Midway for around $165, and Burris rings ran $40-50 IIRC. I mounted this on a YHM rail extension, that ran another $30 or so. Another option is to pick up a 2.5X fixed scope.
Not knocking training, but you may find it difficult to get training structured for your goals. I think Pat dropped the Tactical Coon course and I'm not sure if Larry ever offered a Small Deer and Lesser Quadropeds course.....;)
Failure2Stop
11-23-08, 09:37
I'm with rob on this one. Lotsa things in this thread that make you go "hmm?".
If I had a budget of around $200 I would simply buy good iron sights.
There are lotsa thoughts on this, but my preference is for the LMT rear due to my familiarity with A2 type sights. MI and Troy both also make good flip-up sights.
ARs even with iron sights are 300 meter weapons. With reasonable training and practice an end-user should be able to hit a man-sized silhouette at 500 yards 50% of the time with iron sights. 80% at 300 on a torso sized target. Now to be clear- irons aren't the most efficient or speedy method of shooting or learning to shoot. However- experience on iron sights will translate to optics, and every optic should have a back up iron sight anyway. Most non-military issues can be addressed with a white light and iron sights, however, good optics will better help you solve the problem.
Don't waste money on crap optics. I recommend buying a set of iron sights (if that is all your funds will allow) and honing your skills on them. Save your spare change and get a decent optic in a few months. Further- I highly recommend getting a decent white light attached to your rifle, preferably within 30 minutes of attaching your irons.
Take a look at the following threads for your education while you save your $$-
Optics for Self Defense and CQB: My thoughts and experiences (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4209)- by USMC03
1-4 Variable Optic Options (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104)- by C4IGrant
Everyone should seek training- there is no such thing as being "done" with training. At the minimum the new AR owners should receive instruction on the fundamentals of marksmanship and safety.
Just got my first AR, a S & W MP 15.
Congrats!
What mystifies me is the fact that this question even needs to be asked... Selling a rifle without sights is akin to selling a car without wheels. Both are useless without them.
As others have stated, the basics will provide a good foundation, and training is an excellent suggestion. I'd suggest that you hold off on a purchase until you can actually try some options while in training. Then, based upon what you've had a chance to use, either buy or save up for what works for you.
thanks everyone. I am very open minded and will look further into every option suggested, i would rather build the rifle right slowly than wrong quickly. sorry i posted this in the general section at first and didn't see the stickies in the optics folder yet......
in regard to the gun not coming with sights, selection in my area was very limited because most every AR is sold out, i just had to take what i could get and be happy with it :)
as far as classes go in my area, I will have to check into it, from what i've seen out of the guys at my local police/tactical store/range. i would learn more watching the new "rambo" movie :rolleyes:
so from what i'm reading so far it would not be insane to put a 2-7X scope on it.......?? also is there any front/rear iron sight sets or packages???
If you are only using this for plinking, hogs and deer, I would submit there's no need for irons. None.
But if you are set on equipping yourself with irons, the only way you could use them, assuming you go with any scope, would be to mount the scope on a QR base (LaRue, ADM). That's because before you could user your irons, you'd need a way to ditch the scope. This type of QR base will run $175-200, depending on who you go with. With a QR base, you would still need to plunk down $175+ for the scope, $125+ for a folding rear BUIS (a fixed BUIS will not work with a scope) and another $125-150 for a folding front BUIS/or somewhat less for a fixed, clamp-on BUIS.
My experience is, that with my 2-7X scope, my fixed FSB is not visible in my FOV when looking through the scope, so don't assume you require a front folding BUIS. But you would need a rear folding BUIS, I don't see any way around that.
If your sighting system budget is really $200-300, I don't see how you're going to be able to equip yourself with any decent optic and irons. At that budget level you are going to have to pick one or the other. Seeing as how you didn't mention SD as a usage of your carbine, I'd go the optic route myself. JMHO.
Alaskapopo
11-23-08, 17:04
If it's your first AR, and you have NO prior experience or training with an AR. Skip buying an optic. Buy some Training, Ammo, Mags, and it looks like you need a front & rear sight.
Optics are overrated. Nobody in the Military gets an Aimpoint/Eotech on their first day of boot camp.
LaRue Rear Sight
LMT Front Sight.
Good advice but I am partial to the Troy sights myself.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-23-08, 17:06
If you are only using this for plinking, hogs and deer, I would submit there's no need for irons. None.
But if you are set on equipping yourself with irons, the only way you could use them, assuming you go with any scope, would be to mount the scope on a QR base (LaRue, ADM). That's because before you could user your irons, you'd need a way to ditch the scope. This type of QR base will run $175-200, depending on who you go with. With a QR base, you would still need to plunk down $175+ for the scope, $125+ for a folding rear BUIS (a fixed BUIS will not work with a scope) and another $125-150 for a folding front BUIS/or somewhat less for a fixed, clamp-on BUIS.
My experience is, that with my 2-7X scope, my fixed FSB is not visible in my FOV when looking through the scope, so don't assume you require a front folding BUIS. But you would need a rear folding BUIS, I don't see any way around that.
If your sighting system budget is really $200-300, I don't see how you're going to be able to equip yourself with any decent optic and irons. At that budget level you are going to have to pick one or the other. Seeing as how you didn't mention SD as a usage of your carbine, I'd go the optic route myself. JMHO.
For 200 to 300 is not enough for a good optic and mount unless you get a good deal on a used Eotech. I say skip the optic for now get a set of irons and save for a good optic.
Pat
Get irons first, "good ones", don't skimp. Resist the temptation of buying cheap stuff. Put some $$ together each pay period and before you know it you will be ready to purchase. For red dot down the road, same deal. I personally like aimpoints.
Outlander Systems
11-23-08, 18:11
Like everyone here has already suggested, get some good irons.
You should be able to hit what you need to, while you save up for a quality optic.
Don't skimp on sights! It's worth the wait for good irons or some good glass.
Failure2Stop
11-24-08, 01:50
If you are only using this for plinking, hogs and deer, I would submit there's no need for irons. None.
I actually skipped over that part of the OPs post when I was writing my reply.
You have a good point here. While I disagree with the limitation of purpose, the need/want is better addressed by a magnified optic. However, I cannot recommend any optic and mount in that price range. The low-end 1-4s and 3-9s all come in around $200, but AR usable mounts (that I know of- ADM, LaRue) are in the same price range, resulting in a near $400 price-tag.
Alaskapopo
11-24-08, 01:59
Buy good training: Pat Rogers, LAV or equivalent.
Then you will find out why optics are not over-rated.
I love optics but if I only had 300 to spend I would stick with a good set of Irons and save for the optics. Its better to have top quality irons vs crappy low end optics.
Pat
A few observations.
1. First and foremost your rifle/carbine should be considered a self-defense weapon. Everything else is secondary.
2. I would buy a good front and rear BUIS and then I would seek some good training. Someone suggested that it may not be necessary since you are not planning on using it in a "combat scenario". That is stupid advice.
3. Save money and buy ammo and good mags.
4. Worry about the cool guy optic down the road. They will always be available.
Much good advice hear from Iraqgunz and others. Forget the optic for now until money allows later. Get mags, spare parts and ammo while you still can, change is coming, don't wait. For Irons buy Troy.
Training needs to be on the list as well. How many Carbine trainers have their own T.V. show?:confused:
A few observations.
1. First and foremost your rifle/carbine should be considered a self-defense weapon. Everything else is secondary.
2. I would buy a good front and rear BUIS and then I would seek some good training. Someone suggested that it may not be necessary since you are not planning on using it in a "combat scenario". That is stupid advice.
3. Save money and buy ammo and good mags.
4. Worry about the cool guy optic down the road. They will always be available.
Glad to see the majority of the advice is pretty solid.:cool:
Jack_Stroker
11-24-08, 14:26
Go with the Troy BUIS. I've tried a bunch of them including the Midwest Industries and the ARMS 40L. The latter being the worst one. Doesn't seem particularly durable and it is the most complext to operate. The Troy is the most expensive but it won't leave you wanting for anything. It is the strongest and easiest to use of all flip-up style BUIS units.
They make a non-folding sight as well I believe, but that's not my thing. Might be yours though.
Concur with a lot of the advice given with regards to get a good set of Back Up Iron Sights first, ie. Troy. Then spend the money on quality training from either EAG Tactical (Pat Rogers), Vickers Tactical (Larry Vickers), Morrigan Consulting (Bill Jeans), Yavapai Firearms Academy (Louis Awerbuck), Randy Cain, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. After that consider a quality red dot sight.
When hunting wild hogs that are usually moving you want single power magnification so you can shoot both eyes open, just like when you fight with a carbine. The same principles apply.
Finally go to www.downrange.tv/show2 to watch video clips Part 2 & 3.
S/F
When hunting wild hogs that are usually moving you want single power magnification so you can shoot both eyes open, just like when you fight with a carbine. The same principles apply.
I can attest to this first hand. My first hog was taken with a 3x compact ACOG and she was running out in the open. Easy kill and the 3x didn't hamper me a bit. One heart/lung shot to drop her, one shot behind the ear to kill her.
My second hog was taken in deep brush at 7 yards, and I damn near stripped the 3x off the gun and went back to the irons I was getting so frustrated. The end result was that I wound up wounding her and took way too long to kill her, which is not the way I ever want to take an animal.
I think that a 1x RDS like an Aimpoint C3, with a magnifier in a pivot mount would be a good setup for hogs. If you find yourself hunting from a stand the 3x might be nice to have for spotting and for taking one at distance in brush.
An economical high quality set of BUIS would be a Larue Rear (http://www.mstn.biz/index.php?option=com_joomla_store&jStore=product_info&Itemid=27&cPath=7&products_id=71&Itemid=59&jStoreid=4101715ccf08235b80319834f04d52a), and an LMT Front (http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=67&cid=2&session=3fdf778b6412790995390a82ba10b237).
Good advice from Iraqgunz, get some iron sights, mags and ammo first then worry about the optics later. If your dead set on an optic take a look at the Burris extreme tactical speed dot. It's very similar to an aimpoint, has a three MOA dot, uses common 2032 batteries, has a high shock/waterprof rating and its in your ballpark of 200$. I have the same set up on my RRA with an ARMS throw lever mount, total cost with the mount around 300$. Happy shooting!
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