View Full Version : My .45 dilemma
From all my research and bugging of other people on this board, I have come to realize there are really only 2 well regarded .45 pistols outside of the 1911. The
M&P and HK45
How accurate is this assessment?
What other .45 pistols are finding favor out there? Reliability is my primary concern.
Robb Jensen
11-23-08, 05:39
Others that are reliable are the Glock 21/30 (and SF versions) and the Springfield Armory XD45s.
Take a look at the Sig Sauer P220 and its variants: P220 Carry / P220 Compact / P245 [no longer in production]. Personally, I would first look at Sig and H&K before any others (and I am a Sig owner).
Take a look at the Sig Sauer P220 and its variants: P220 Carry / P220 Compact / P245 [no longer in production]. Personally, I would first look at Sig Sauer and H&K before any others (and I am a Sig owner).
I have a a 220 and xd .45. I can say with confidence I wouldn't rely on a 220. The jury is out on the xd. Haven't shot it near as much as I'd like.
Robb Jensen
11-23-08, 05:54
What is your 220 doing that you don't trust it? Also when was it made?
I prefer the early 220s with folded metal carbon steel slides. I've seen newer ones with extraction/extractor problems.
What is your 220 doing that you don't trust it? Also when was it made?
I prefer the early 220s with folded metal carbon steel slides. I've seen newer ones with extraction/extractor problems.
Have seen too many go down in training. I'm around these things a lot. :)
94 is when they were beefed up right? Are you saying you like before or after that time?
Robb Jensen
11-23-08, 06:12
Have seen too many go down in training. I'm around these things a lot. :)
94 is when they were beefed up right? Are you saying you like before or after that time?
Before the stainless milled slides...
You mean there are other .45's out there beside the venerable 1911!?
Just kidding, HK is about as robust as you can get. I just sold a HK Mk23. Built like a tank, and almost as big. But accurate, reliable, reliable, reliable.... But I sold it to go back to a 1911.
I've had both SIG and HK. Both excellent guns. Not real sure about the quality of current SIG product though.
RogerinTPA
11-23-08, 09:05
From all my research and bugging of other people on this board, I have come to realize there are really only 2 well regarded .45 pistols outside of the 1911. The
M&P and HK45
How accurate is this assessment?
What other .45 pistols are finding favor out there? Reliability is my primary concern.
I think it's a good assessment. I own the M&P45 and for me, very accurate and comfortable as far as grip and recoil management. For the money, it's GTG.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13541
It's really down to Ergonomics and Personal preference.
Here is my opinion for what it's worth:
XD/Glock 21's/M&P/HK are all reliable, out of the box good shooters
All are ccapable of combat accuracy
HK45 & M&P45: both "point"/feel like a 1911 to me
For whatever reasons Glock and XD just don't feel natural to me (just my opinion)
Trigger feel/control: all poly factory triggers will dissappoint (vs. 1911):
Spend the money to have Bowie or Burwell upgrade triggers on any of the above choices regardless
Dan Burwell did a superb 3.5-4lb job on my M&P45 (creep, reset length and pull wt).
I shot a buddies Bowie Glock and HK, very similar feel
Mag availability/cost:
Magazines for all but the HK are ~$20-$25 (incl. high cap for now)
HK's are closer to $50 each
Maintenance/after market items/Warranty Service:\
Springer: Croatian built, but good availability (due to time in market and volumes I suspect) and solid warranty/service
S&W: 100% US (only one in mix) and good avail. and rock-solid warranty/service
H&K: German built for now (switching to HK/Wilcox in NH in 2009) in the past I have had great support/luck with my HK weapons, I have read recently of issues with spare parts, no first hand experience now
Glock: Austrian built, good support and availability (same reasons as Springer and most police forces (Fed/State/Local) adopted Glock and solid warranty/service
My take:
Buy a pair of M&P45's (for <$500 each from Grant and G&R: before discount or mag deals), send them to Dan Burwell for a custom trigger/perf ctr sear + grip enhancements for the same price you'd pay for an H&K with a custom trigger job...all in for <$1,500
Here is my Burwell Custom:
Full size M&P45, trigger job, sharkskin stippling, NP3'd internals & slide, 10-8 rear/triji front sight:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z302/mpardun/MPs_MandP45.jpg
I am getting just over 2" from a bag at 50 feet (indoor)
~4" off-hand at 50, slow shoot
~10" off-hand at 50, double tap/rapid fire
IMHO the DA/SA trigger of the USP and Sigs puts them out of the running (in any caliber) unless forced to use them in an issued gun. I rarely see anyone in training or competition stick with either of these platforms for long unless forced to by an issuing agency. There are other factors that make both of these designs less than ideal, but the DA/SA switch is the biggest one.
I always liked the Glocks in a non-1911 .45, but the M&P and (to a much lesser extent to me personally) the XD make better sense in today's market due at least in part to the grip.
Glock mags that were hovering around $20/ea made the decision tough for me since I like to stock up. M&P mags seem to go for $30+/ea.
I say that for the price and service you cannot go wrong with the M&P in .45. The low bore axis and ergo's are second to none and it's the easiest of the lot for me to fire quickly and accurately. The beavertail helps in this regard as well.
The HK 45 is a great pistol but you will not have the same level of service as with Smith or of accessory availability. You also have to ask yourself if it's worth the price for one HK 45 when you could buy almost two M&P's for the same price. The HK has significantly more of the typical muzzle rise and twist on recoil than the M&P. I have to work harder to shoot the Hk .45 as quickly and accurately as the M&P. The M&P even makes .40 shootable for me quickly and accurately and it's the first pistol I have ever been able to shoot .40 without angst.
I also really like the Glock 21SF. Have nothing bad to say about it other than if you want to carry it's awful big. Very accurate pistol. I carry both the M&P .45 and HK 45 full size but not the 21SF. I like the Glock grip angle a lot and I am a longtime 1911 guy.
The XD does nothing for me. Too many bells and whistles I don't need or want and any service it has to go back to Springfield but they will take care of it. I understand why some people like it but it's just not for me. if I was in the market for an XD .45 I would probably wait for the XDM in .45.
I was a big fan of the Sig P220 in the past even though I don't like DA/SA trigger but I wouldn't buy anything from Sig until they get their quality control and customer service out of the toilet. If they ever do. I think they have done a lot of damage to their reputation since quantity sales won out over quality. It's certainly not worth the price they continue to ask for their pistols.
As i said I am a longtime 1911 guy and have used them in some pretty extreme circumstances. But the new crop of polymer pistols are so good I prefer to avoid the hassles of maintaining a 1911 and it's numerous points of failure. if you want a polymer pistol that is the most 1911'ish I again suggest the M&P .45 perhaps with a manual safety and it has the 1911 grip angle and I think the trigger, when worked on is the best one of the polymer's.
So in sum I love the M&P .45, HK 45 and Glock 21 SF. All well made and accurate but unless your an HK or Glock guy I recommend the M&P for most people
I own both a M&P45 (4" bbl mid size) and a XD45 (4"bbl service) I don't have many rounds through the M&P yet, But I've got a few through the XD,IMO the M&P is the better of the two. I've noticed a few shortcomings with the XD, Mag springs, Mine need replaced early, at about 1000rnds. IMO the stock mag springs are weak to start with, with suprisingly little tension when fully loaded,(13rds). The M&P mag springs are on the other hand, pretty stiff when fully loaded. I replaced the mag springs in the XD with 20% stronger ones. They should have been this way from the start. The loaded chamber indicator has also shown that it can stick up from dirt, crud building up in it, I could see this becoming a problem for long term use. Picking both the M&P and the XD up in my hands at the same time, I was shocked at the difference in height between the two. The bore axis of the XD is at least 1/2" higher than the M&P...Now I understand why the M&P is so much easier to shoot, and shoot well with. add the fact you can replace the backstraps to taylor the pistol to fit your hands, and it's a no brainer.. Accuracy, The XD is no slouch, but due to it's lower bore axis, the M&P to me, is more accurate, and the M&P will feed anything, as well .The XD will feed anything as long as the bullet shapes are either roundnosed or truncated cone shaped, don't even try LSWC's in a XD, It'll turn into a jam-o-matic, 99.9% of the XD45's will not feed LSWC's. Recoil springs the XD 4" service has a captive recoil spring arrangement, invloving 2 springs, there's no way to dissassemble it and when it's worn out it's replaced as a unit,at $20.00 a pop, plus shipping. Currently, there are no aftermarket replacements, and the only source is the factory. In fairness I don't know if the M&P recoil spring could be replaced with a aftermarket spring or not, but it looks like the guide rod can be dissassembled, so, I'm guessing it could be replaced with possiblly a standard 4" 1911 spring. Parts...I know there other sources for XD's other that the factory but, still there are a few parts that you can't get except from S.A. that, and the fact I figure Obama will at some time slip in a ban on forgien surplus ammo, and parts. This would be easy to do, and not stir up a hornets nest like a AWB would. This will hurt those who own pistols like XD's HK's CZ's and others who don't have a U.S. based manfacturing plant, S&W, Beretta, Sig, do, so owners of those will be able to get parts if such a ban were inacted..It's for these reasons I've decided to sell my XD... The XD's not a bad handgun, but, to me, comparing it to a M&P shows there are too many negatives and not enough positives
My G21 has been 100% reliable in two years and over 6,000 rounds.
Yes it is a big gun, but with the right holster it is not too difficult to conceal. It is accurate and has an excellent trigger.
The one downside I see in the M&P is the High Cap config., creates a 1.5-2" protrusion from the bottom of the grip (a la Sherrrer Glock extensions). Not pretty, but it works - but not likely for long.
I recently bought 4 of the High Cap mags (14 rounders) just to have for $25 each from Grant and G&R - added to ~12 standard 10 rounders. I just noticed he's got the hi-cap .45's back in stock if anybody is interested:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=45MB14&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE
Also: Std Cap Mags are $25 thru Grant as well:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=45MB10&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE
From all my research and bugging of other people on this board, I have come to realize there are really only 2 well regarded .45 pistols outside of the 1911. The
M&P and HK45
How accurate is this assessment?
What other .45 pistols are finding favor out there? Reliability is my primary concern.
We are blessed with more outstanding choices for .45's right now than at any point in history! The hard part is making up your mind, but it's definitely worth looking at a few options before you buy.
Mpardun's summary is great; all of those brands/models (Glock 21, XD45, H&K 45, M&P 45) are extremely popular with many shooters at both of the ranges I'm a member of, and on most forums I am involved in, although the H&K for some reason has not caught on quite as much in my area yet. Also, the other posters have pointed out existing models that have been out for a few years but are still outstanding, like the Sig 220, the H&K USP 45, or (I would add) the CZ97. There are some other new ones that are less widely known yet, like the new FN 45, but this may turn out to be an excellent pistol. It has been getting rave reviews so far, and though it wasn't my favorite 45 when I tried a rental at the range, I think they are extremely well made, and it had the best new-in-box trigger on any plastic .45 I've tried. Finally, I think two other near-future forthcoming 45's will be worth looking at, though neither is available yet and may not fit your time frame: the Springfield XDM 45, and the Sig 250 (in .45; the 9mm is already available). Take a look at the latest Sig P250's coming out (http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=54&productid=227), and imagine those in .45; definitely an interesting future option.
I still prefer 1911's and M&P's, but with all these great choices, it's worth checking out a few options before you buy. Don't make the mistake I've made several times before, where you buy SOMEONE ELSE'S FAVORITE GUN!!! If you can rent or borrow two or more of the above choices, and try shooting them side-by-side so you can compare and contrast the triggers, the grips, the balance, the recoil, etc., that's the best way in my experience to figure out COMPARATIVELY which pistol works the best for you.
Thanks for the replies. I need to find someone with an mp45 and see what the fuss is about.
Jack_Stroker
11-23-08, 17:50
I've got two XD .45ACP pistols that I have shot quite a bit. I've also got several 1911's. I'd say my XD 45's are every bit as reliable as any pistol I've ever shot. I'd certainly trust my life to them and often do as I sometimes carry m5 XD Service .45ACP as my conceal carry weapon.
Honestly, I have to question the dismissal of the P220. Are these guns of recent manufacture? (are they the SS slides with external extractor etc?)
I can say that I've never seen a 220 go down in a class, in personal use, or in range rental scenarios. These were older style guns, though. Still, they've been very accurate and reliable in my experience.
Honestly, I have to question the dismissal of the P220. Are these guns of recent manufacture? (are they the SS slides with external extractor etc?)
I can say that I've never seen a 220 go down in a class, in personal use, or in range rental scenarios. These were older style guns, though. Still, they've been very accurate and reliable in my experience.
Milled (Stainless) Slides (I think somebody stated 1994) seems to have marked the beginning of the problems. Pre '94 were rolled steel and both very accurate and reliable. Like most semi-auto's magazine selection is also important.
Mechanical issues coupled with US management changes and customer service issues as of late probbaly led to the "dismissal.
Some forum members don't care for the DA/SA trigger groups as well. This same preference also eliminates the HK's from consideration.
I guess it all comes down to personal preference and finding what works best for each individual.
My FNP-.45 has proved accurate and reliable for 1100 rds. It is big but fits my extra large hands. Felt recoil is mild. It rests beside my bed and accompanies me on field and stream trips where it is carried openly. A big plus is that Browning's service department will take care of warranty or other repairs.
I don't like DA/SA but if I can carry cocked and locked with SA trigger I don't mind at all.
Some forum members don't care for the DA/SA trigger groups as well. This same preference also eliminates the HK's from consideration.
I've also read every thread I got a hit on this same topic, and this thread is also very informative. I'm looking to sell or trade in my full size USP .40, since I don't really shoot it much, for one of these main .45 contenders: the M&P .45, the HK45, and the G21SF, so can you guys please answer a few more specific questions on this general topic?
Which is the most accurate? I take it, its between the M&P and the HK?
How does a tweaked M&P trigger compare to the gold standard 1911 trigger based on weight of pull, crisp let off, reset? And how about creep to sear disconnect post reset (SA reset in the HK's) (which the 1911 essentially has none, and the Glock very very little, and I think some of that is plastic trigger flex maybe, and the old USP's have lots :( )?
How does the match trigger in the HK45 compare to a properly worked M&P trigger?
Has the HK45 solved the problem of creep to sear disconnect post reset that the USP's have?
I've already read comments that the M&P is much faster on the subsequent shots than the HK due to the lower bore axis and beaver tail. Is there a consensus on this?
Taking in consideration all of the above, which gun would be best for IDPA/action shooting? I'm assuming this one is between the M&P and Glock?
I've not shot the HK, but I've handled it, and the full size reminds me of a big 'ol Nakita Power drill with the 12v battery pack..not exactly svelte. Can one CCW a full size M&P .45? Is the mid size M&P with the 4" barrel as inherently accurate as the full size? It looks like the full size M&P .45 is essentially the same size as a G17 (which I own, and don't have any trouble CCW'ing) yeah?
How positive is the M&P safety action, and how well is it placed? I'd be carrying it safety engaged, just like I do my HK USPc and my 1911 (I was going to say cocked and locked, but this would be...err...striker precocked and locked?), and I'd be hoping for a design that has the same placement and feel of a good 1911 safety (I actually find the USPc safety perfectly practicable also by the way); I shoot high strong thumb resting on the safety, thumbs forward, isosceles.
I know that the HK45 is bomb proof, and I know that Glocks are pretty durable too (esp. the 9mm's), but how tough is the M&P? Is it at least as tough as the Glock?
Does the G21SF have any frame flex/light malfunction issues like the G22?
I know some people have shot 45 Super out of the behemoth called the HK45. Can one safely do this? How about out of the M&P or the G21?
Lastly I'm concerned about the little mini pin hinging the distal trigger bit to the main trigger piece in the M&P..it looks like if that joint goes, one is Properly FU^%ED! In this area the Glock trigger seems to be the better unit, not to mention the superior trigger solidity of the HK. What says you guys?
Also, is the M&P as susceptible to a critical failure as the Glocks if the trigger reset spring breaks?
I really do apologize about the 20 questions, and sorry if some of them are redundant, but you guys are quite a knowledgeable lot, and I'd sure appreciate your help (and so will the OP hopefully :D).
Many Thanks.
Cristian
p.s. all considered, I am starting to lean M&P after reading the comments in this forum, even though initially I was pretty near convinced that an HK 45 (probably the compact) was in my future :D...but I can still change my mind...I'm still open to the G21SF too, but I prefer a frame mounted safety as I'm used to that set up.
Those have been coming out for a long time now. Meanwhile Sig can't give P250's away. Tactical all-terrain digital? They must be really desperate.
and the Sig 250 (in .45; the 9mm is already available). Take a look at the latest Sig P250's coming out (http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=54&productid=227), and imagine those in .45; definitely an interesting future option.
I've fired the 250's in 9mm, and they don't seem like a bad option to me. Obviously not the BEST IMHO, or I would have bought one in 9mm, but still not bad. Some folks that have bought them really like them. They have a trigger that seems to work really well for me--a long but incredibly smooth and consistent pull, without stacking--and outstanding ergos, good night sights, etc. This is one of the few pistols that is pretty well set up out of the box to run well without needing a ton of extra work. And if it does need some changes, you have a lot more ability to swap out the internals, and configure a frame and fire-control-system just the way you want it.
There are reasons that different items sometimes don't catch on right away, and with the 250, I think it MAY be because it's a rather new concept. It may never catch on, that's totally possible, but I think it could also eventually appeal for certain kinds of users. For instance, it may not appeal to individuals all that much--the "frame and fire-control swap-out system" isn't something I personally need. But departments that want to get a bunch of copies of the same pistol type, and be able to easily and quickly reconfigure them to fit individual users, might find them appealing. And maybe even some individuals, who like the idea of having the same base pistol, but being able to switch among configurations for carry and competition for instance, or to switch calibers, would find it appealing.
I'm keeping an open mind on the P250; it may still catch on.
Having not handled one, I thought I'd ask...
Does that 250 address the high bore axis of all the other Sigs? It doesn't appear to but the pictures may be deceiving.
I also went the MP45 route. I currently have a Midsize MP45, and a compact on order with Grant.
Having not handled one, I thought I'd ask...
Does that 250 address the high bore axis of all the other Sigs? It doesn't appear to but the pictures may be deceiving.
I only put about 100 rounds through a rented one, but from my VERY limited exposure, I'd say, No the 250 does not address the bore axis thing. Though I didn't try to measure/estimate what the actual bore axis is, it looks and feels pretty similar (when shooting the compact P250) to a P239. Honestly, though I didn't think it was bad for a compact, it IS a bit flippy in the muzzle, and this is one of the reasons that, despite the nice trigger, I still prefer the M&P in a plastic pistol.
well I see I went overboard with my questions, so how about just answering this abridged version
how does the trigger reset compare between the M&P .45 the HK45, in SA mode of course, and the G21?
How does the M&P .45 compare in ruggedness, strength of materials to the G21?
Is the M&P that much more controllable than the HK45 in rapid fire?
well I see I went overboard with my questions, so how about just answering this abridged version
how does the trigger reset compare between the M&P .45 the HK45, in SA mode of course, and the G21?
How does the M&P .45 compare in ruggedness, strength of materials to the G21?
Is the M&P that much more controllable than the HK45 in rapid fire?
All of these questions except MAYBE the ruggedness inquiry are going to personal taste issues. I could say the trigger reset is worse in the mp and the HK is more controllable under rapid fire... Doesn't make my observations right for you. Just go shoot them and feel for yourself.
As far as the ruggedness..... There isn't a industry standard testing process for this so.... who knows. The glocks are proven in most environments over and over.. That's the only thing in stone that I know of regarding your questions.
Same goes for towing and hauling numbers for trucks.... Some manufactures test them downhill in cold weather etc etc.
well I see I went overboard with my questions, so how about just answering this abridged version
how does the trigger reset compare between the M&P .45 the HK45, in SA mode of course, and the G21?
How does the M&P .45 compare in ruggedness, strength of materials to the G21?
Is the M&P that much more controllable than the HK45 in rapid fire?
Trigger reset: I find that the Glocks have a quick, crisp reset that makes them easy to shoot fast once you get the hang of it. The HK45 has a slightly longer reset, but it is also positive. The M&P is a little mushy for my taste, one of my few complaints about it. With practice, I'm sure this can be easily overcome.
Durability: I think it's a wash personally. Anything you do that will damage an M&P will likely damage a Glock too. One thing I think is cool about the HK45 is that the pins holding the innards inside the frame are encapsulated by the slide when it's fully assembly. That way they can't work their way out. Slick.
Controllability: I didn't notice a big difference in the controllability of any of the guns I've shot.
I think for price/performance the M&P is hard to beat. The G21SF is an improvement over the G21. but not enough to sway me over. I went with the HK45 because I like the trigger and feel of the grip in my hand better than the other two. Sometimes I wish I had given the M&P .45 a longer look. It's much cheaper to buy and support (HK45 mags are over $50 most places). And S&W probably actually has spare parts for it.
Full disclosure: I owned a Gen 1 G21 for about 3-4 years and I currently own an HK45. I've only rented an M&P .45
citadelshooter
11-25-08, 22:08
Have seen too many go down in training. I'm around these things a lot. :)
94 is when they were beefed up right? Are you saying you like before or after that time?
Please explain...
What is you exact experience with the P220?
What have you seen gone wrong (other than FTF or FTE, which ALL pistols do)?
Pre95 models or the newer ones?
I think this would help everybody on the thread. SIGs, HKs, and Glocks are all good .45s. I am still not convinced on the M&P. I have seen several have issues e.g. feeding issues with HP and FMJ, crappy triggers out of the box, etc.
Help a brother out on the SIG deal though, please.
Please explain...
What is you exact experience with the P220?
What have you seen gone wrong (other than FTF or FTE, which ALL pistols do)?
Pre95 models or the newer ones?
I think this would help everybody on the thread. SIGs, HKs, and Glocks are all good .45s. I am still not convinced on the M&P. I have seen several have issues e.g. feeding issues with HP and FMJ, crappy triggers out of the box, etc.
Help a brother out on the SIG deal though, please.
Over 300 issued 220's come through standard quals and extra training details regularly. I've seen, which hey.. might be normal for this large of a sampling size of a particular weapon, too many FTE and FTF to make me PERSONALLY feel comfortable relying on it. I have no way of knowing the manufacturing dates on these weapons. My first 220 is long gone. Current one has been gtg so far.
Are you casually dismissing FTE and FTF as no big deal?
An interesting observation: I have a 24/7 I fool around with that has many more rounds through the tube than my first 220. It has had 1 FTF that a restrike of the same round (a trigger feature in the 24/7) fixed. So, too me. If in 3 training exercises I see say.. 2 , 220's go down for 2 issues. That's 1 more than my 1/2 price, questionable quality, higher round county 24/7 has had. Simply an example.
The reality is, I don't have a number of how many times I've seen it. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill but the mole hill is still bigger than my ant hill...... I shot glock through academy as did everyone else for 1000's of rounds per weapon. Never had a single malfunction.
Again, personal. I'm not calling it crap, or even telling anyone they would be wrong by choosing one for a go-to. My personal experience guides my personal choices.
My "information" if you want to call it that, is what it is. Unscientific, and unpolished. I don' think however, it's bias. For the record I had a horrible first outing with the MP. This board however convinced me it was an anomaly. I'm searching for one to test out again and have high hopes for it.
Hope this helps and clears things up. Certainly not hating on any weapon system.
I'm a 1911 guy and Glocks have never felt right to me. For me the M&P 45 is the closest to the ergos of the 1911. I wanted a .45 with a light rail for nightstand duty and couldn't justify (at least not yet anyway) a Wilson or Baer with a light rail. So I ended up with the M&P .45 after I spent some time shooting a demo to be sure I would like it. It is accurate but it needs a couple of things to make it just right - the S&W performance center or Burwell trigger/action upgrade, and night sights. As far as the night sights go I haven't decided between the Bowie Tactical or Novak. I'm happy with the Insight Procyon light I put on it.
I looked at the H&K and thought it was too heavy and bulky. I like the fact the M&P is American made and the rebate for two spare mags or $50 they are running right now. I went with the mags. I was also influenced by Todd's successful torture test of the M&P 9mm.
Trigger reset: I find that the Glocks have a quick, crisp reset that makes them easy to shoot fast once you get the hang of it. The HK45 has a slightly longer reset, but it is also positive. The M&P is a little mushy for my taste, one of my few complaints about it. With practice, I'm sure this can be easily overcome.
Does the HK45 have the same USP reset "problem" in that, after SA trigger reset, there is a significant amount of creep before the sear disengages again? Or has HK fixed that problem. Because with my USP's I don't think the SA trigger reset is that bad, not much longer than my Glock, but that big creep to sear disengagement bugs me.
On a side note I think the Glock would have an even crisper trigger release if the trigger was steel, as it feels to me that there is a tiny amount of flex in the plastic trigger.
Anyway, too bad that one has to send the M&P for a trigger job to get a good reset on it..I can't believe that S&W would go through the trouble of designing a "Glock Killer" and put anything less than a trigger as good, if not better, in it than what the Glock has.
I was starting to lean M&P, but I don't like the idea of sending the pistol away for many months for a trigger job..
Does the HK45 have the same USP reset "problem" in that, after SA trigger reset, there is a significant amount of creep before the sear disengages again? Or has HK fixed that problem. Because with my USP's I don't think the SA trigger reset is that bad, not much longer than my Glock, but that big creep to sear disengagement bugs me.
On a side note I think the Glock would have an even crisper trigger release if the trigger was steel, as it feels to me that there is a tiny amount of flex in the plastic trigger.
Anyway, too bad that one has to send the M&P for a trigger job to get a good reset on it..I can't believe that S&W would go through the trouble of designing a "Glock Killer" and put anything less than a trigger as good, if not better, in it than what the Glock has.
I was starting to lean M&P, but I don't like the idea of sending the pistol away for many months for a trigger job..
Last time I looked you could send it to the S&W perforance center and they'd go over it, including a trigger job, and their turnaround time was a week!! all for $125...
Last time I looked you could send it to the S&W perforance center and they'd go over it, including a trigger job, and their turnaround time was a week!! all for $125...
not too bad I guess..can one order the gun with the performance center trigger treatment straight from the factory to begin with? and how does it compare to the glock trigger?
citadelshooter
11-30-08, 19:26
Over 300 issued 220's come through standard quals and extra training details regularly. I've seen, which hey.. might be normal for this large of a sampling size of a particular weapon, too many FTE and FTF to make me PERSONALLY feel comfortable relying on it. I have no way of knowing the manufacturing dates on these weapons. My first 220 is long gone. Current one has been gtg so far.
(1) Are you casually dismissing FTE and FTF as no big deal?
(2) An interesting observation: I have a 24/7 I fool around with that has many more rounds through the tube than my first 220. It has had 1 FTF that a restrike of the same round (a trigger feature in the 24/7) fixed. So, too me. If in 3 training exercises I see say.. 2 , 220's go down for 2 issues. That's 1 more than my 1/2 price, questionable quality, higher round county 24/7 has had. Simply an example.
(3) The reality is, I don't have a number of how many times I've seen it. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill but the mole hill is still bigger than my ant hill...... I shot glock through academy as did everyone else for 1000's of rounds per weapon. Never had a single malfunction.
(4) Again, personal. I'm not calling it crap, or even telling anyone they would be wrong by choosing one for a go-to. My personal experience guides my personal choices.
(5) My "information" if you want to call it that, is what it is. Unscientific, and unpolished. I don' think however, it's bias. For the record I had a horrible first outing with the MP. This board however convinced me it was an anomaly. I'm searching for one to test out again and have high hopes for it.
Hope this helps and clears things up. Certainly not hating on any weapon system.
Understood. A couple comments on the above numbers.
(1) Occasional FTF and FTE happen. Plain and simple, but no I am not dismissing them. For example, in "combat" situation, during a FTF you take cover, clear, reload, and get back rolling. I have seen it happen with every platform (including Glocks). FTE is another story, normally these are so bad that it stops the pistol cold.
(2) 24/7. No experience with this gun, really no need too it's a Taurus. No offense.
(3) You aren't making mountain out of a molehill. I think everyone on the board would agree that any platform, if neglected and not taken care of properly will fail. P220s do seem to have a lot lower tolerance for abuse than others, especially when compared to Glocks. I mean Glocks are well, Glocks. You know what I mean.
(4) P220s, properly taken care of, will run and run well. High round count e.g. classes, maybe not. Understanding that P220s might not (to my knowledge) have a lot of acutal combat use, the P226 has - a lot of use. The SIG is a good platform. Your quote "My personal experiences, guides my personal choices." I would recommend EVERYONE use this mantra when choosing a firearm. Figure out what works for you and use it. Good advice ZDL!
(5) #4 covers some of this part too. However, concerning the M&P, you are not the only one I have heard of having issues. A local PD had issues with the .40SW service model with frangible ammo and HPs. A good friend of mine who has used everything that goes bang had issues with the MP45 with HP and FMJ. He sent it back to S&W, who polished and throated it, still didn't work. After many FTF and FTE he traded it out for...guess what...a Kimber 1911. Which as Ken Hackathorn states - loosely - "The 1911, the king of all feedway stoppages".
Overall, I think that the best overall pistol for reliability is the Glock period. It is a proven gun. However, the P220 is too. I carry both.
Thanks for the response. Good luck! Especially to those who are trying to choose a platform.
God speed everyone.
not too bad I guess..can one order the gun with the performance center trigger treatment straight from the factory to begin with? and how does it compare to the glock trigger?
I don't know how it compares to a Glock trigger, And, I haven't had this done to my M&P...yet. but everything I read says the S&W PC uses their own sear, made from tool steel, in the M&P. The result is, a trigger(from what I've read) much like a tuned 1911, with a much better reset. I'm sure this would make a very shootable handgun like the M&P even more shootable.. I don't know if you can order a PC package right from the factory or not..I just wish they'd sell the sears...
(2) 24/7. No experience with this gun, really no need too it's a Taurus. No offense.
lol, you're not offending me. I know what it is. Picked it up for $200 a while ago. Use it as a trainer. It's amusing how reliable it has been though. :cool:
I love the M&P. I carried a 1911 daily, and think to myself, what took so long for me to get this gun. Good ergonomics, and no malfunctions and more accurate than I will ever be.
What are the odds this is the only time this question will come up in December? Really, we ought to sticky this thread so it can become the omnibus "Which .45 should I buy?" thread. :cool:
Personally, if I were going to pick up a new .45, I'd get either an M&P45 or an HK45. Between those two, personally I shoot the M&P better. But the HK45 is certainly very shootable ... my comparison is a bit biased since I've got just a little bit of time behind M&P pistols of late.
A lot has been made in this thread about DA/SA vs. SFA guns. I think it's mostly hogwash. Shoot a DA/SA gun and you'll get good with a DA/SA gun. Been there, done that. People don't realize just how habituated they get to light triggers. When I was shooting a stock SIG, I could pick up just about any gun and shoot it without a second thought regarding what the trigger pull was like. Now, after more than a year shooting an SFA S&W, when I shoot a student's DA/SA gun I think to myself, "WTF? When did they start making these with 50# triggers?" I've got friends who shoot nothing but racey guns with 2# triggers ... they literally think a DA gun is broken because the trigger doesn't move. :cool: So don't let the action thing get you into a bind. Pick a gun and learn to shoot it.
The other thing that's been mentioned is bore axis. While bore axis does play some role in proper shot recovery, it's just one part of the equation. The inner working of the gun -- exactly how and where it delivers the slide's force in relation to the shooter's hand -- plays a much bigger role. Two guns with the same bore axis can have much different recoil characteristics.
Also, in response to the poster who said For example, in "combat" situation, during a FTF you take cover, clear, reload, and get back rolling. ...
The assumption here, not borne out by most gunfights that happen domestically (either LE or private citizen), is that in the middle of a fight you'll (a) be able to get to cover and (b) have time to clear a stoppage. If we understand that the typical gunfight lasts 3-5 seconds and it takes most reasonably trained people 2-3 seconds to clear a stoppage ... well, those numbers kind of suck.
A good gun can't overcome an unskilled shooter, but a skilled shooter can't overcome an unreliable gun, either ...
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