View Full Version : FN alloy steel barrel
robbins290
04-15-20, 09:16
Does anyone know what the difference is with a "alloy" barrel? I see FN has a patrol carbine with a alloy barrel. I have google the crap out of it can came up with nothing. I even tried the search on here. Rifle in question is this.
https://fnamerica.com/products/fn-15-series/fn-15-patrol-carbine/
crusader377
04-15-20, 09:19
It is just probably clumsy wording for your standard 4150 CMV chrome lined barrel. FN makes great barrels and I would buy with confidence.
everready73
04-15-20, 09:26
It is just probably clumsy wording for your standard 4150 CMV chrome lined barrel. FN makes great barrels and I would buy with confidence.
They specifically state is is different alloy than the standard FN 15 which i assume is 4150 CMV. Maybe it is a different amount of vanduim(sp) in the CMV 4150 barrel. I know they do make barrels for Hodge with a different alloy, maybe they licensed off of him for this one? Or is the milspec steel a different version of 4150 CMV... Mil-B-11595E
robbins290
04-15-20, 09:29
see the confusion i had everyready? google did not help as it got flooded with crap unrelated.
Crusader, it is already ordered and decided to research it while i wait for it. it was a great price.
everready73
04-15-20, 09:57
see the confusion i had everyready? google did not help as it got flooded with crap unrelated.
Crusader, it is already ordered and decided to research it while i wait for it. it was a great price.
They are not very clear about it and dont provide much info
Best bet might be an email/call to FN
It's definitely a different Alloy.
It says, on that page:
16″ button broached chrome-lined barrel
Semi-automatic only
Under the barrel length details.
So, either, they are using a weaker Alloy that can't stand up to Full Auto use, or whoever is doing FN's listings is doing a horrible job at it and mixing up concepts all over the place.
It wouldn't surprise me, since they have Select Fire options in the line up for LEO, that it means it is not select fire, but it's really not clear.
It looks like the "semi-automatic only" might be in reference to its operation. But as you said, whoever wrote that didn't did a great job.
It looks like the "semi-automatic only" might be in reference to its operation. But as you said, whoever wrote that didn't did a great job.
You are right. Especially as I google and look around, I see this "Button Broached Alloy Steel" pop up a lot.
Including back in 2015 when it, appears, FN was awarded a contract to supply rifles to the Army.
So, I don't imagine Full Auto Rating is an issue for the barrels. I mean, why would it be in all reality, thinking about it rationally, any barrel that can heat up in FA, will still heat up, albeit slower, in Semi.
Plus, this is FN. Which I doubt they would want to risk a reputation issue from some fudd being ignorant.
It's just a very poorly written listing. Give them a call, but I wouldn't worry about it.
Button Rifling is, arguably, a better barrel than CHF anyways.
Defaultmp3
04-15-20, 10:47
They specifically state is is different alloy than the standard FN 15 which i assume is 4150 CMV. Maybe it is a different amount of vanduim(sp) in the CMV 4150 barrel. I know they do make barrels for Hodge with a different alloy, maybe they licensed off of him for this one? Or is the milspec steel a different version of 4150 CMV... Mil-B-11595EThey make lots of barrels with a different material than 4150; all the "machine gun steel" CHF barrels are a different alloy (Spike's, PSA, Centurion Arms, Noveske, etc.), and is what the Hodge barrel basically is, by all accounts, just a minor tweak in the formulation AFAIK (Hodge calls it a modified 9310H).
robbins290
04-15-20, 10:59
So do you guess think it is worth the $918 i paid for it? Being new in box.
Leonidas24
04-15-20, 11:00
One thing that they make plainly known on the standard FN15 is that it features a heavy profile barrel, which I am assuming is under the handguards. Perhaps the patrol carbine uses a gov profile instead and whoever wrote the description on their website sucks at conveying information. I wouldn't expect FN to use something like 4140, but then again their 16" mid length barrels have unusually large gas ports to accommodate the lowest common denominator of ammo.
robbins290
04-15-20, 12:45
So it looks like it was worth the price of $918 shipped.
So it looks like it was worth the price of $918 shipped.
Yes it probably was.
Alloy just means a blend of metals. 4150 is a specific alloy, so is 4140, 416R, 410 ect.
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I never understood why people ask for advice after buying something. Back to the rifle... My only question would be.. Why is FN selling a button rifled barrel when thier claim to fame is CHF?
vicious_cb
04-15-20, 17:00
I never understood why people ask for advice after buying something. Back to the rifle... My only question would be.. Why is FN selling a button rifled barrel when thier claim to fame is CHF?
Because they have to follow the TDP for the M4/M16 contracts and the TDP specs button rifling
robbins290
04-15-20, 19:07
I never understood why people ask for advice after buying something. Back to the rifle... My only question would be.. Why is FN selling a button rifled barrel when thier claim to fame is CHF?
Because i bought it and saw that “alloy” part with the confirmation email.
Except FN cannot sell TDP spec rifles on the commercial market as part of their contract. Only Colt has that ability. All commercially available FN-15s sold on the civilian market are not made to the same specs as their contract M4s including their Military Collector series.
Except FN cannot sell TDP spec rifles on the commercial market as part of their contract. Only Colt has that ability. All commercially available FN-15s sold on the civilian market are not made to the same specs as their contract M4s including their Military Collector series.
Except, there is a difference between barrels and complete rifles.
My message was in response to vicious_cb. The poster he replied to asked why FN still used button broached barrels for their commercial spec rifles. His response was that it was because the M16/M4 required button broached barrels per the TDP. FN is not allowed to use the TDP in their commercial spec rifles. Even their barrels have different markings between commercial and mil spec.
So they can’t use 7075T6 aluminum forged receivers in their commerical spec rifles? That seems analogous to what you’re saying.
What I'm saying is that FN doesn't use button broached barrels on their commercial spec rifles simply because the TDP calls for it. They can't use the exact TDP for their commercial rifles so this is not a reason for them to still be using these types of barrels.
vicious_cb
04-15-20, 22:52
What I'm saying is that FN doesn't use button broached barrels on their commercial spec rifles simply because the TDP calls for it. They can't use the exact TDP for their commercial rifles so this is not a reason for them to still be using these types of barrels.
No but they can run their button broaching machines with whatever non Mil-B-11595E steel they're using which won't break their contract.
I never understood why people ask for advice after buying something. Back to the rifle... My only question would be.. Why is FN selling a button rifled barrel when thier claim to fame is CHF?
FN sells a lot of button rifled barrels - my PSA "premium" upper has one (FN marked). I would not be suprised if many other button rifled vendor barrels came from FN.
Andy
They also make a lot of 14.7" barrels versus the standard 14.5".
Also, you'll notice on their 20" commercial barrels, they are missing that step down before the muzzle and according to one thread years ago, they are a little longer than 20".
I'm sure they have many subtle ways to avoid stepping on the TDP.
Why is FN selling a button rifled barrel when thier claim to fame is CHF?
Really? CHF is their "claim to fame"? Lol
FN, as a full fledged manufacturer with design and development capability can make whatever the hell they want.
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Not sure how widespread the use of CHF is, but several of the Turkish manufacturers use CHF barrels on their handguns.
robbins290
04-16-20, 11:56
Does TDP really matter for non military anyways? As long as the bolt, bolt carrier and barrel are top tier?
Does TDP really matter for non military anyways? As long as the bolt, bolt carrier and barrel are top tier?
Another question along the same lines might be: Have manufacturers reverse engineered the Colt's enough that the TDP is no longer secret sauce and pretty much a moot point?
robbins290
04-16-20, 18:15
Another question along the same lines might be: Have manufacturers reverse engineered the Colt's enough that the TDP is no longer secret sauce and pretty much a moot point?
True!
Does TDP really matter for non military anyways? As long as the bolt, bolt carrier and barrel are top tier?
Yes and no. The dimensions and tolerances are part of the TDP, and those are still really important for proper fit and function. Some of the materials and processes may be outdated. For example, there are arguably better coatings than Parkerizing for BCGs like NP3. There maybe better steels out there than Carpinter 158 for bolts, but will the average shooter really benefit from them? Maybe, maybe not. If you replace some TDP spec with a process or material that’s cheaper and more durable, great. But the importance of the TDP came about in the civilian AR-15 market because of poor quality rifles that were using different materials, and processes that probably offered greater profit margins for the manufacturers, but poor durability and reliability for the consumer. If a company held to the TDPs minimum standards with fidelity, the consumer could expect a reasonable level of quality and reliability.
robbins290
04-16-20, 18:46
Yes and no. The dimensions and tolerances are part of the TDP, and those are still really important for proper fit and function. Some of the materials and processes may be outdated. For example, there are arguably better coatings than Parkerizing for BCGs like NP3. There maybe better steels out there than Carpinter 158 for bolts, but will the average shooter really benefit from them? Maybe, maybe not. If you replace some TDP spec with a process or material that’s cheaper and more durable, great. But the importance of the TDP came about in the civilian AR-15 market because of poor quality rifles that were using different materials, and processes that probably offered greater profit margins for the manufacturers, but poor durability and reliability for the consumer. If a company held to the TDPs minimum standards with fidelity, the consumer could expect a reasonable level of quality and reliability.
As long as i can go 15-20k rounds with the barrel and bcg. None of that really matters to me, If they tweaked this or that.
As long as i can go 15-20k rounds with the barrel and bcg. None of that really matters to me, If they tweaked this or that.
The other parts can influence bolt life. For example, if the upper receiver face is not perpendicular to the centerline of receiver bore, that asymmetrical force will put more pressure (during the firing cycle) on some of the bolt lugs, which will lead to premature bolt failure. So you could have an amazing BCG and barrel, and if you put them in an out of spec (or crap) upper receiver, and your bolt will fail after a couple thousand rounds. So, I think it’s important to consider the sum of the parts, not just the individual parts in a build.
robbins290
04-16-20, 19:21
The other parts can influence bolt life. For example, if the upper receiver face is not perpendicular to the centerline of receiver bore, that asymmetrical force will put more pressure (during the firing cycle) on some of the bolt lugs, which will lead to premature bolt failure. So you could have an amazing BCG and barrel, and if you put them in an out of spec (or crap) upper receiver, and your bolt will fail after a couple thousand rounds. So, I think it’s important to consider the sum of the parts, not just the individual parts in a build.
Thats why i go name brand with rifles that i will depend my life. And the cheap ones i just pound when i am training/shooting. Your point pretty much sums up why crap rifles should be a range toy only.
I never understood why people ask for advice after buying something. Back to the rifle... My only question would be.. Why is FN selling a button rifled barrel when thier claim to fame is CHF?
According to something I read a while back, supposedly from FN themselves, the reason FN makes button rifled barrels is because the military contracts for M16 and M4 specify such. And, specify the material to be MIL-S-11595, chrome-moly-vanadium steel.
The drawings for the M240 and M249 barrels specify a different steel alloy (aka FN Machine Gun Barrel Steel), and make rotary forging or rotary swagging mandatory.
Does anyone know what the difference is with a "alloy" barrel? I see FN has a patrol carbine with a alloy barrel. I have google the crap out of it can came up with nothing. I even tried the search on here. Rifle in question is this.
https://fnamerica.com/products/fn-15-series/fn-15-patrol-carbine/
The military specifications for M16/M4 barrels are outlined in MIL-B-11595, the CMV composition.
FN has developed a proprietary steel for the M240 and M249. This steel has a higher percent of vanadium and chrome and less carbon an manganese. This alloy has a slightly better strength at high temperature, but not a dramatic increase.
For 99.99% of the AR shooters, even those that go through thousands of rounds a month, probably will not see a difference. But it is a selling point . . .
Another question along the same lines might be: Have manufacturers reverse engineered the Colt's enough that the TDP is no longer secret sauce and pretty much a moot point?
Except FN's license pre date the wide spread disclosure of the M16 data package. And since the 1994 Colt TDP data breech, the license no doubt has a non-compete clause for the commercial market.
I watched a video of the manufacturing process of the CHF barrel that FN makes.FN mandrel is also tapered so that it is easier to remove
And what I had seen was a red hot barrel with a mandrel put inside of the barrel and it was hammered to the correct dimension and rifled at the same time.
I watched a video of the manufacturing process of the CHF barrel that FN makes.FN mandrel is also tapered so that it is easier to remove
And what I had seen was a red hot barrel with a mandrel put inside of the barrel and it was hammered to the correct dimension and rifled at the same time.
The "C"in CHF stands for "cold". "Cold Hammer Forging"
You can get hot forging machines, but they are usually for bigger barrels.
If I recall my history correctly, the whole CHF process was invented in Germany during WW2 as a means to produce barrels faster.
The "C"in CHF stands for "cold". "Cold Hammer Forging"
You can get hot forging machines, but they are usually for bigger barrels.
Yeah now that I think of it the barrel they were making was a little on the big size. I could not find the one I had seen. I did find another one on the process, and they still hammered the rifling into it using a mandrel to form the rifling. only no heat was used. No button broach was pulled through it. Those machines look expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oALJDh43K3I
WHY would they permanently attach an A2 MD to a 16" barrel? FN 15 Military Collection
BARREL
16” button-broached, chrome-lined
A2-style compensator (permanently attached)
robbins290
04-21-20, 18:41
Rwh. No idea about the military collection. But i was asking about the patrol carbine with the quad rail.
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