View Full Version : The One Gun Solution (GP Carbine) - Reality?
I’ve been putting some thought into this lately and seems there’s plenty of other threads that touch on this in some way or another, but nothing really diving into this topic like I would prefer.
What would be your One Gun/General Purpose carbine setup that gives you everything from CQB out to 400yds at any time of day (or night)? Is it possible to cram all that capability into one platform (and do it well) or is having two uppers set up differently the way to go?
Parameters for this carbine:
1) 0-400 capable
2) Day and Night capable
3) Stay light enough to be easily carried in the field
For the first parameter I’ve settled on a “Mini-RECCE” suppressed 12.5” upper with an LPVO (for me currently: NF NX8) as I believe it’s the sweet spot between maneuverability and external/terminal ballistics at range. Even with a 6” suppressor, it’s not much longer than an unsuppressed 16”. Im sure some would say that an 11.5” bbl can work the same, and that’s fine, I just prefer that extra velocity for the range envelope we’re looking for. Add in a capable white light and sling and call it a day.
For me, this is pretty well cut and dry until you start talking about low/no light capability.
It’s pretty well noted that a RDS shines over a LPVO when it comes to low/no light and especially when we’re talking working with NV. So this is where a wrench is thrown into one gun solution.
Do you roll with an IR laser/illum on your “Mini-RECCE” for target acquisition and deal with the limitations of your day optic, or do you have a separate (10.5”-11.5” suppressed) upper with RDS to handle the night time capability?
(For the purpose of this exercise let’s assume that night capability is referring to mostly CQB with possible 100yd or less engagements under NODs...no clip on NVDs, only active aiming devices).
I had a long talk with John Noveske one time, and somewhere in it he commented that if he could only have one AR15, he would make sure it was a 12.5” barrel, because it was just about the perfect all around length when you figured out velocity and any reliability trade offs.
Theoretically speaking...because I am not a pipehitter.
I currently set up my 12.5” Kino as the all around carbine. MRO in ADM QD mount, and Vortex PST 1-4x in GG&G QD mount (until it sells...), both zero’d with IMI Razorcore 77 gr. I currently have a BCM/Troy rear BUIS “in case.” Warcomp for an eventual suppressor purchase. And low light flash suppression. That said, I’m not entirely sold on the 400yd with a 12.5” barrel, particularly with a 1-4x.
So, I have the parts to have Citizen Arms put together a 16” upper, with a Leopold 3-9x and offset older Insight MRDS. I like to imagine these two uppers check the boxes for most situations.
My second rifle has a Colt CCU upper with PST 1-6x. I would take this over state lines into IL. Besides that... I always grab the 12.5” to go shooting.
To go with this lower, I also have an 11.5” suppressed-only upper that BRT put together for me, just waiting on the direct thread suppressor to clear. End goal there is to set that up for NODs.
Ultimately, I think my less-experienced plans mirror what you’re describing. I have a feeling I’ll end up selling off the CCU upper, as much as I like it. The 12.5” do-all, 16” recce, and 11.5” night-bumps seem to check all possible boxes for me.
I had a long talk with John Noveske one time, and somewhere in it he commented that if he could only have one AR15, he would make sure it was a 12.5” barrel, because it was just about the perfect all around length when you figured out velocity and any reliability trade offs.
Right, but that’s only half the equation. How do you set that gun up for low/no light?
Theoretically speaking...because I am not a pipehitter.
I currently set up my 12.5” Kino as the all around carbine. MRO in ADM QD mount, and Vortex PST 1-4x in GG&G QD mount (until it sells...), both zero’d with IMI Razorcore 77 gr. I currently have a BCM/Troy rear BUIS “in case.” Warcomp for an eventual suppressor purchase. And low light flash suppression. That said, I’m not entirely sold on the 400yd with a 12.5” barrel, particularly with a 1-4x.
So, I have the parts to have Citizen Arms put together a 16” upper, with a Leopold 3-9x and offset older Insight MRDS. I like to imagine these two uppers check the boxes for most situations.
My second rifle has a Colt CCU upper with PST 1-6x. I would take this over state lines into IL. Besides that... I always grab the 12.5” to go shooting.
To go with this lower, I also have an 11.5” suppressed-only upper that BRT put together for me, just waiting on the direct thread suppressor to clear. End goal there is to set that up for NODs.
Ultimately, I think my less-experienced plans mirror what you’re describing. I have a feeling I’ll end up selling off the CCU upper, as much as I like it. The 12.5” do-all, 16” recce, and 11.5” night-bumps seem to check all possible boxes for me.
In a perfect world I would say the same thing, all three would fill each role nicely. 11.5” for CQB, 12.5” Do All 0-400, and a 16” RECCE for out to 600. Personally, I’ve taken an 11.7” barrel with NX8 out to 600 and have no issues calling it a solid 400 yd gun. Past 400, hits start to get a little harder with wind and other weather. That’s where my thoughts on the 12.5” come from.
But, hypothetically speaking, how would I want a gun configured if I wanted to fill all parameters outlined above and could only grab one? Or would I need to grab a full gun + specialized upper to complete the package? That’s what I’m driving at for this discussion.
With a great barrel and an experienced shooter, I’d say the 12.5.” Free-float a Kino with a Centurion C4 M-LOK, but with some sort of barrel that tapers to use a .625 FSP rather than BCM’s .750. There’s going to be a (relative) ton of weight out front already, between the night vision stuff, flashlight, and FSP.
PEQ15, Reptilia smaller body light. At least what I’ve found is that if it’s getting crowded and heavy, I’ll probably want a foregrip.
When it comes to optics... I’m thinking your NF is a lot lighter than my PST 1-6x, so keep that and offset a MRDS or T-2/clone.
Short suppressor, like the Saker K or Surefire whatever.
That’s still going to be a heavy gun to haul around, once you consider we’re at quaternary sighting systems. So trim down by foregoing the Kino setup and rear BUIS. That saves a couple ounces, and you keep the offset RDS for use under NODs.
I’m spitballing.
Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 08:24
My go-to is either a 14.5 with a short can, or an 11.5 with a larger can.
Both with an LPVO, light, and IR laser/flood.
I have gone past 1k with the 14.5 and purpose-oriented ammo.
The overall length and weight of both is very similar.
The 11.5 shines indoors due to the more effective suppressor, while the 14.5 takes over once past pistol-caliber range.
Ah, the quest for the unobtainable.
I'm more of a 11.5" because if you are going short, go short & 14.5/16" because you gain a lot with those inches.
I have all 3 but I'm not gonna start selling because of internet gymnastics.
Straight Shooter
04-17-20, 09:05
My 16" LMT with the Steiner PXi 1X4 & Inforce 800 lumen light fills the bill for me.
I am going to switch to 69gr. IMI for standard HD/SHTF soon as I can get stocked up enough.
I have only limited experience with the shorty AR's, and Lord knows Im no "pipehitter" either..but to me, FOR me, I love a 16" gun.
My go-to is either a 14.5 with a short can, or an 11.5 with a larger can.
Both with an LPVO, light, and IR laser/flood.
I have gone past 1k with the 14.5 and purpose-oriented ammo.
The overall length and weight of both is very similar.
The 11.5 shines indoors due to the more effective suppressor, while the 14.5 takes over once past pistol-caliber range.
I know you use the IR laser for aiming at night under NODs, but when you have to go IR to vis spectrum quickly, how do handle the LPVO in that situation? My understanding is that’s where an RDS works well in comparison since you don’t have the eye relief limitations. Keep in mind I’ve had about a 4 hr block of instruction on NODs from Pressburg and that’s the extent of my knowledge other than reading things here and there.
And back more on topic, which do you pick for the 0-400 parameters in the OP if you had to just pick one?
Ah, the quest for the unobtainable.
I'm more of a 11.5" because if you are going short, go short & 14.5/16" because you gain a lot with those inches.
I have all 3 but I'm not gonna start selling because of internet gymnastics.
Right, I’m not saying you should sell anything either. This is just discussing my take on a true “do all” rifle. Meaning it is the ONE you would pick, if you had to, that you’ve set up to handle all realistic engagement scenarios within 400yds at day or night.
ETA: Maybe shooting under NODs isn’t even part of the consideration for some, but I would like that capability and that’s where the wrench gets thrown into my “do all” day gun...how do you take that same gun and make it work well at night?
Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 10:05
I know you use the IR laser for aiming at night under NODs, but when you have to go IR to vis spectrum quickly, how do handle the LPVO in that situation? My understanding is that’s where an RDS works well in comparison since you don’t have the eye relief limitations. Keep in mind I’ve had about a 4 hr block of instruction on NODs from Pressburg and that’s the extent of my knowledge other than reading things here and there.
And back more on topic, which do you pick for the 0-400 parameters in the OP if you had to just pick one?
LPVOs and NODS don't play together very well.
If the NODs drop down, I'm 100% on laser or gross aiming technique. If the laser doesn't work and it's dark, I'm on light + LPVO for GP carbines.
For the 0-400 range the practical reality is that an 11.5" 5.56 with effective suppressor is going to leave very little on the table.
LPVOs and NODS don't play together very well.
If the NODs drop down, I'm 100% on laser or gross aiming technique. If the laser doesn't work and it's dark, I'm on light + LPVO for GP carbines.
For the 0-400 range the practical reality is that an 11.5" 5.56 with effective suppressor is going to leave very little on the table.
Thanks, that all makes sense. What’s your go to LPVO these days?
How well do offset rds work with nods?
Could you skip a laser or still need that option?
I dont run nvg yet, but I like a mini suppressor (socom mini556) on an 11.5. Its just quiet enough and saves significant weight/length. 12.5” would be fine as well. Id rather have more barrel length than silencer length, but again, nvg might change that.
Dr. Bullseye
04-17-20, 12:10
Take whatever AR you have, put Ultradyne irons on it (easily move from 0 to 400 yards), and adjustable white light for no light, and maybe a visible laser for low light. Or you can scrap you rifle, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on short barrels, Aimpoints, night vision and IR lasers.
How well do offset rds work with nods?
Could you skip a laser or still need that option?
I dont run nvg yet, but I like a mini suppressor (socom mini556) on an 11.5. Its just quiet enough and saves significant weight/length. 12.5” would be fine as well. Id rather have more barrel length than silencer length, but again, nvg might change that.
You’d still need IR laser with nods. IR spectrum (IR laser) vs Vis spectrum (offset rds)
As for how it would interface with tube(s) over the top of them (looking under the NV tube to pick up the RDS) I have no idea. It’s hard enough just to get a standard rds to interface like that in my limited experience. My guess is, if you’ve got a PVS14 tube over non-dominant eye and turn your LPVO scoped rifle 45° to pick up the offset rds, you’re gonna have some clearance issues with the 14 and LPVO.
Take whatever AR you have, put Ultradyne irons on it (easily move from 0 to 400 yards), and adjustable white light for no light, and maybe a visible laser for low light. Or you can scrap you rifle, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on short barrels, Aimpoints, night vision and IR lasers.
Nah bro I don’t need to scrap anything...and this ain’t 1990.
Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 12:24
Offset RDS are not fun with NODS, one reason that I have come back around to piggybacked RDS for rifles set up for more dedicated precision use, but still way behind a laser for the midrange night gunfight.
How well do offset rds work with nods?
Could you skip a laser or still need that option?
I dont run nvg yet, but I like a mini suppressor (socom mini556) on an 11.5. Its just quiet enough and saves significant weight/length. 12.5” would be fine as well. Id rather have more barrel length than silencer length, but again, nvg might change that.
Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 12:27
Take whatever AR you have, put Ultradyne irons on it (easily move from 0 to 400 yards), and adjustable white light for no light, and maybe a visible laser for low light. Or you can scrap you rifle, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on short barrels, Aimpoints, night vision and IR lasers.
Guys with LPVOs, lasers, and night vision have been killing the dogs**t out of dudes with just iron sights at night with great regularity for about 25 years now.
For the 0-400 range the practical reality is that an 11.5" 5.56 with effective suppressor is going to leave very little on the table.
Agreed. I have a 11.5 BCM with a T-2 & 3x, ringing steel at 350 (limits of my range) is not hard to do.
If it was my 'one gun', I'd probably think about putting a LPVO on it instead (NX-8 likely, which is on my LW 16" which I shoot un-suppressed), but I'd have to assess the higher probability of wanting night / NOD effectiveness w/IR Laser - RDS vs daylight effectiveness with a LPVO.
I think we are shaving %s at that point; I think you just need to pick the one you think is the best and roll with it.
Take whatever AR you have, put Ultradyne irons on it (easily move from 0 to 400 yards), and adjustable white light for no light, and maybe a visible laser for low light. Or you can scrap you rifle, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on short barrels, Aimpoints, night vision and IR lasers.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KSB6lZfHL0k%2FUX-itoraKeI%2FAAAAAAAALh0%2Fto-I16Zl_84%2Fs1600%2FRicky-Gervais.gif&f=1&nofb=1
My go-to is either a 14.5 with a short can, or an 11.5 with a larger can.
Both with an LPVO, light, and IR laser/flood.
I have gone past 1k with the 14.5 and purpose-oriented ammo.
The overall length and weight of both is very similar.
The 11.5 shines indoors due to the more effective suppressor, while the 14.5 takes over once past pistol-caliber range.
Jack, which suppressors are you using for the 11.5 & 14.5 inch?
Why not use a short can with the 11.5"? My thoughts are, if you're going short, go short. Instead of going with a longer suppressor on a short barrel, just go with a longer barrel and reap the benefits of more velocity. Is it because the longer suppressor is quieter? Is it quiet enough to give up the extra velocity?
Thanks
vicious_cb
04-17-20, 13:29
Jack, which suppressors are you using for the 11.5 & 14.5 inch?
Why not use a short can with the 11.5"? My thoughts are, if you're going short, go short. Instead of going with a longer suppressor on a short barrel, just go with a longer barrel and reap the benefits of more velocity. Is it because the longer suppressor is quieter? Is it quiet enough to give up the extra velocity?
Thanks
Theres a limit to the amount of muzzle blast a shorty can could handle. Chop off enough baffles and give it enough muzzle blast and your suppressor doesnt suppress anymore. Shorter barrels need longer cans to get the same suppression that you see with longer barrels.
Also regarding the concept of this thread, didnt Ash Hess run a 11.5" with a Mark 6 at a long range gas gun match and win or something?
turnburglar
04-17-20, 13:41
0-400 yards is kinda far. Not that it can't be done, but you might want to pick a barrel length more suited towards what end of the spectrum you will mostly find yourself. For example my 10.5 can throw pills 400 yards, but my 14.5 will do it much more reliably. I can do CQB style drills with the 14.5, but the 10.5 is much easier.
For what it's worth though I shoot matches at those exact distances and the 400 yard targets start to make me wish I had a 16" just a little. What I do like about the 14.5 is that I am forced into a very effective flash hider to make it 16". I have actually tested all my muzzle devices at night and the 3-4 prong design is more effective than some suppressors I have seen. Sure the noise is all there, but there is almost no flash if you pick the right device. I also think the GP rifle optics matter. Im running a Steiner P4Xi cause I love how its aim point 1x and BDC 4x. It's ridding in a Aero mount for one of the more svelte optics packages you can get. I think I measured it at 20.5 Oz's with mount. The entire rifle weighs 7.3 pounds with optic, so I am pretty happy with how handy it is.
Guys with LPVOs, lasers, and night vision have been killing the dogs**t out of dudes with just iron sights at night with great regularity for about 25 years now.
Jack, do you (or anyone else) have chrono days for a Mod 2 CQB with BH 77gr TMKs? I’m curious how it stacks up against the new hotness of certain 12.5s and found some data for a Triarc barrel with that load.
I’m also curious if you have experience shooting an offset RMR with nods. It seems to work well on pistols, I’m curious if a Badger C1 with RMR would be viable secondary aiming option after the IR laser when under nods.
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Jack, which suppressors are you using for the 11.5 & 14.5 inch?
Why not use a short can with the 11.5"? My thoughts are, if you're going short, go short. Instead of going with a longer suppressor on a short barrel, just go with a longer barrel and reap the benefits of more velocity. Is it because the longer suppressor is quieter? Is it quiet enough to give up the extra velocity?
Thanks
Theres a limit to the amount of muzzle blast a shorty can could handle. Chop off enough baffles and give it enough muzzle blast and your suppressor doesnt suppress anymore. Shorter barrels need longer cans to get the same suppression that you see with longer barrels.
Also regarding the concept of this thread, didnt Ash Hess run a 11.5" with a Mark 6 at a long range gas gun match and win or something?
Yeah general consensus seems to be shorty cans should only go on 12.5s and up. And least that’s Chuck’s stance.
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Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 15:07
Jack, which suppressors are you using for the 11.5 & 14.5 inch?
I shoot KAC QDC and NT4 suppressors on 5.56 rifles.
Why not use a short can with the 11.5"? My thoughts are, if you're going short, go short. Instead of going with a longer suppressor on a short barrel, just go with a longer barrel and reap the benefits of more velocity. Is it because the longer suppressor is quieter? Is it quiet enough to give up the extra velocity?
Short cans are great for keeping things short, but full sized cans bring blast into the sub-140dB area, which is way better when in tight spaces than louder cans. Short cans on short rifle barrels have handgun level dB. More weight on the end of the barrel also helps reduce muzzle rise, which is an inherent issue with short barrels and suppressors in general. Quieter can also helps reduce identification of shooter by the shootee at longer range, which helps if you are already working a little behind the 8-ball with a shorty at extended range.
The heavier suppressor closer to the support hand, with the decreased leverage, has very little detriment to handling.
Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 15:11
Also regarding the concept of this thread, didnt Ash Hess run a 11.5" with a Mark 6 at a long range gas gun match and win or something?
Ash and I have both taken 1st place with 11.5" KAC guns, however the matches that we do so at didn't go out much past 400 yards, and most stages really didn't favor dedicated rigs.
At that time we were also competing in the PRS Gas Gun Series, and shooting at 400 with 11.5" 5.56 guns was a pretty good simulation of shooting at 600-800 with our competition setups. We thought it would be way cooler to go out and have fun with little guns than crush a local match with our optimized guns.
Failure2Stop
04-17-20, 15:15
Jack, do you (or anyone else) have chrono days for a Mod 2 CQB with BH 77gr TMKs? I’m curious how it stacks up against the new hotness of certain 12.5s and found some data for a Triarc barrel with that load.
Not at hand, but I'll check my files.
I’m also curious if you have experience shooting an offset RMR with nods. It seems to work well on pistols, I’m curious if a Badger C1 with RMR would be viable secondary aiming option after the IR laser when under nods.
I DO NOT like offset dots with NODS, vastly prefer them on top of the primary optic in that application.
Not at hand, but I'll check my files.
I DO NOT like offset dots with NODS, vastly prefer them on top of the primary optic in that application.
Interesting. Maybe the Reptilla RMR mount on top of an LPVO would work then. Thanks for the info, it’ll probably be a while before I get into NODs but I’m trying to have everything ironed out before then.
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SeriousStudent
04-17-20, 17:28
I had a long talk with John Noveske one time, and somewhere in it he commented that if he could only have one AR15, he would make sure it was a 12.5” barrel, because it was just about the perfect all around length when you figured out velocity and any reliability trade offs.
It's very interesting you said that. When I started down this same path to The One True Carbine, I bought a Noveske 12.5" Crusader barrel with a Switchblock on it.
This is a fascinating thread, I'm going to make it a sticky. Jack - thank you so much for your input, it makes a ton of sense.
Interesting. Maybe the Reptilla RMR mount on top of an LPVO would work then. Thanks for the info, it’ll probably be a while before I get into NODs but I’m trying to have everything ironed out before then.
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This is where I’m at too. Only had some limited training on a borrowed set so far and hoping I can swing a NODs setup in the next year or so. Don’t want to get to that point and find out I have to completely reconfigure my gun for NOD use.
It's very interesting you said that. When I started down this same path to The One True Carbine, I bought a Noveske 12.5" Crusader barrel with a Switchblock on it.
This is a fascinating thread, I'm going to make it a sticky. Jack - thank you so much for your input, it makes a ton of sense.
Agreed, lots of great knowledge shared so far in the thread. I’ve heard that John Noveske quote for years and it’s always stuck with me as well.
Maybe the Reptilla RMR mount on top of an LPVO would work then.
It that setup works great, I have one on top of a NF 2.5-10x24 on my 14.5 Switchblock Noveske semi-precision rifle.
Funny how people went away from piggybacked RMRs because it was 'too high' / no cheekweld, only to start putting LPVOs on jacks up to 1.93" and now 2.04".
noonesshowmonkey
04-17-20, 21:00
I feel like I've seen this animal before...
And shot it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?163207-Noveske-12-5-GP-Carbine
It that setup works great, I have one on top of a NF 2.5-10x24 on my 14.5 Switchblock Noveske semi-precision rifle.
Funny how people went away from piggybacked RMRs because it was 'too high' / no cheekweld, only to start putting LPVOs on jacks up to 1.93" and now 2.04".
I tried the 1.93" and liked it while standing but it did take a little more adjustment in the prone. I've since found that the Badger C1 in lower 1/3 (1.7ish) is an awesome compromise and I'm super happy with it, plus I'm experimenting with an offset RDS, hence my question.
Hammer_Man
04-18-20, 01:09
I've actually been thinking about this lately, as I'd like to get rid of all my project guns, and keep just one AR-15 as my go to. I really don't want to spend the money on a tax stamp, so I'll probably keep my 14.5" P/W. The only thing I wish I did different, was getting a SOCOM mini instead of the RC2.
Interesting discussion on the same topic by Tu Lam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q1nvIoeiFY&t=205
Interesting discussion on the same topic by Tu Lam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q1nvIoeiFY&t=205
I can’t take anything that guy says seriously.
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Eurodriver
04-18-20, 09:31
I had a long talk with John Noveske one time, and somewhere in it he commented that if he could only have one AR15, he would make sure it was a 12.5” barrel, because it was just about the perfect all around length when you figured out velocity and any reliability trade offs.
I remember you, and DocSherm saying this before, and I heeded it. I took heed. I took head?
Idk. I did it, though. 12.5" Noveske Crusader is one of my favorite guns. I shot with DocSherm using that setup and he kept rambling about how smart I was for finally listening to him... :rolleyes:
I think me, Docsherm, and RTX are all in this one photo with 12.5s
https://i.ibb.co/jyPr1JL/F1-FDC651-2620-4-D0-F-B898-44-EFA87-C646-D.jpg
Ash and I have both taken 1st place with 11.5" KAC guns, however the matches that we do so at didn't go out much past 400 yards, and most stages really didn't favor dedicated rigs.
At that time we were also competing in the PRS Gas Gun Series, and shooting at 400 with 11.5" 5.56 guns was a pretty good simulation of shooting at 600-800 with our competition setups. We thought it would be way cooler to go out and have fun with little guns than crush a local match with our optimized guns.
...what Jack is neglecting to mention here is that he still crushes local matches with "little" guns, too.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KSB6lZfHL0k%2FUX-itoraKeI%2FAAAAAAAALh0%2Fto-I16Zl_84%2Fs1600%2FRicky-Gervais.gif&f=1&nofb=1
lol, in other words "I buy the cheap stuff because I am broke and it's just as good as".
12.5" Noveske Crusader is one of my favorite guns.
What accuracy are you getting with it at a longer distances (200m+)?
I've seen some shorter guns (11.5") which were very accurate up to 200m (under 2moa), but past 250m accuracy dropped like crazy (4-6+ moa). Don't know if that's an inherit nature of shorter barrels, bullet stabilization, velocity factor or something else.
Run N Shoot
04-18-20, 17:19
I am trying to get a one gun solution set up right now. So far: 14.5” p&w, Viper 1x6 and a WMLx. Since I am still keeping a very low profile at work ( terminations and furloughs ongoing) there are no plans for a suppressor or NV but I want to get this zero’d and take a class to see how it goes.
So for my set up Night Vision and CQB is a must have vs the longer distance. That being said my abilities in day and night must be and are equal and built around a maximum range of 300 yards as I just dont see the need for more vs what I would have to gain or loose for my ultimate GB carbine. They only thing that effects the Night Vision side is atmospheric conditions. Some evenings the weather just will not let you play at the longer ranges. As mentioned LPVOs are a no go for Night Vision work and I find them slower for CQB. Another must for me is having the ability to shoot passive at night which again eliminates the scoped optic as its just impossible to get behind them with binos.
Current go to rig is a 11.5" barrel on a 10.5" rail with Omega can. Running an Aimpoint T2 in a Unity FAST Micro Mount with a 5X Aimpoint magnifier in the Unity FAST MAG Mount. Supported by 18650 Modlite and MAWL. If forced to give up one of the items it would be the magnifier as it doesn't really get that much use and typically comes off at dark. Nothing at all I cant do from a combat perspective with this set up. My carbine is supported also with a 14.5 upper with LPVO as a "kit" or thought for that extended range but in my opinion not worth the hump or little gain. It might see a roll if I was operating from a fixed location and taking day patrols but I would hate to be caught with it after dark.
Ash and I have both taken 1st place with 11.5" KAC guns, however the matches that we do so at didn't go out much past 400 yards, and most stages really didn't favor dedicated rigs.
At that time we were also competing in the PRS Gas Gun Series, and shooting at 400 with 11.5" 5.56 guns was a pretty good simulation of shooting at 600-800 with our competition setups. We thought it would be way cooler to go out and have fun with little guns than crush a local match with our optimized guns.
Hey, I remember when you talked about that on the Primary and Secondary Modcast! Cool stuff.
I have a question about the choice of barrel length here.
Wouldn't it make sense to decide on ammo, figure out the minimum velocity to achieve that round's designed terminal effect (frag vs expand etc...) Then figure out what barrel length is required to achieve that at the desired range?
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PatrioticDisorder
04-19-20, 17:36
Ah, the quest for the unobtainable.
I'm more of a 11.5" because if you are going short, go short & 14.5/16" because you gain a lot with those inches.
I have all 3 but I'm not gonna start selling because of internet gymnastics.
A member on TOS did some interesting testing a couple years back with 10.5/11.5/12.5/14.5/16. With velocity you gain very little going from 10.5-11.5, there is a rather large jump in velocity going from 11.5-12.5 and very little increase going from 12.5-14.5, some increase going to 16. This was load dependent of course, 5.56 FMJ seemed to have some benefit going from 12.5-14.5, everything else gained little or nothing.
Don Robison
04-19-20, 22:22
Take whatever AR you have, put Ultradyne irons on it (easily move from 0 to 400 yards), and adjustable white light for no light, and maybe a visible laser for low light. Or you can scrap you rifle, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on short barrels, Aimpoints, night vision and IR lasers.
You can't honestly be serious??
For me LPVO, PEQ15 and suppressor on 12.5" gun is my go to for the past few years.
A member on TOS did some interesting testing a couple years back with 10.5/11.5/12.5/14.5/16. With velocity you gain very little going from 10.5-11.5, there is a rather large jump in velocity going from 11.5-12.5 and very little increase going from 12.5-14.5, some increase going to 16. This was load dependent of course, 5.56 FMJ seemed to have some benefit going from 12.5-14.5, everything else gained little or nothing.
Its dependent on the individual barrel. My 12.3” just about matches my 16” and my 14.5 beats it. Every barrel is different.
RobertTheTexan
04-20-20, 12:20
I remember you, and DocSherm saying this before, and I heeded it. I took heed. I took head?
Idk. I did it, though. 12.5" Noveske Crusader is one of my favorite guns. I shot with DocSherm using that setup and he kept rambling about how smart I was for finally listening to him... :rolleyes:
I think me, Docsherm, and RTX are all in this one photo with 12.5s
https://i.ibb.co/jyPr1JL/F1-FDC651-2620-4-D0-F-B898-44-EFA87-C646-D.jpg
For starters, you just like that picture because it shows your hiney. Secondly, didn't I shoot your 12.5 with the BCM Flex-O-Rail? I think that's when your ACOG dotted me 'twixt the eyes and made me bleed on it. Good thing we weren't in COVID Quarantine or you would have had to quarantine your optic for 30 days. :)
Sure looks like the guy in orange is somewhat down range. Am I seeing this wrong?
In any case, great thread. Barrel length vs. velocity, variance of different loads and the individual characteristics of different barrels make for an interesting matrix.
Sure looks like the guy in orange is somewhat down range. Am I seeing this wrong?
In any case, great thread. Barrel length vs. velocity, variance of different loads and the individual characteristics of different barrels make for an interesting matrix.
No, you see it correctly. I am about 20 yards in front of Euro
pointblank4445
04-20-20, 15:09
Always tried to do something similar for my work. The trick I never figured in that respect was how to balance sight height with IR laser while still allowing rail space for the clip-on (when appropriate) and still having it coincide with the day optic. Helmet only NVG setup...fine. Clip-on compatible setup...fine. Both...not so much without sacrificing something.
Now off the job, I just keep a piggy-back RMR as a passive NV/secondary option and it's functional...but far from an IR replacement.
Live in a sucky state with limited can/SBR use so running with a 14.5/16" is the norm. Digging the Hodge 14.5". Most rounds are running faster or equal to a 16". Still seeing 2600+ fps out of 77 TMK's.
That and a 1-8x can easily be pushed out past 800y on 12" steel. Not my first pick for CQB but certainly capable. Certainly this setup has me questioning my need for Recce/DMR style guns given what it can do for the manageable size.
https://i.imgur.com/NGNvzvw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/95vnzNk.jpg
2/3 IPSC @ 810y
https://i.imgur.com/64WmpCl.jpg
Eurodriver
04-22-20, 19:44
No, you see it correctly. I am about 20 yards in front of Euro
Damn my image hosting account got deleted. I’ll have to find a new one.
Hammer_Man
04-22-20, 20:41
One thing to consider is some states don't allow SBRs. So a 14.5" with pinned muzzle device is the shortest option for some. Also alleviates any hassles while traveling across state lines.
One thing to consider is some states don't allow SBRs. So a 14.5" with pinned muzzle device is the shortest option for some. Also alleviates any hassles while traveling across state lines.
I don’t directly disagree, but would counter that at least in the case of my red (the bad red) neighbor, Illinois, a pistol brace still solves this problem.
My GP carbine is a 14.5 pinned and welded Colt SOCOM barrel with A2 FH, standard front sight gas block. I'm using a Magpul SL handguard. The rest is rather standard as well although I am using a JP captured recoil unit which I believe softens recoil somewhat, helps in recovery.
No optic as of now, irons only with a DD A1 A rear sight. I had a Aimpoint red dot with Aimpoint 3X magnifier but I sold it once my eyes started seeing blurs, deltas, smudges, etc. I still have the magnifier. Right now I think a Trijicon low power ACOG is the direction I want to go.
Failure2Stop
04-23-20, 08:52
Right now I think a Trijicon low power ACOG is the direction I want to go.
I super duper recommend trying out a decent low-power variable optic with an etched reticle.
I have some pretty significant corneal scarring that makes some dots less than optimal, which is what pushed me in that direction may years ago.
There are quite a few in the same price range of an ACOG, and have the added ability to do both sides of the capability of a carbine.
Evel Baldgui
04-23-20, 09:20
My one gun solution is fairly simple given that I reside in a congested urban environment and rarely venture into a rural area; unless its to attend a training class. A 10.5" LWRC AR pistol with an aimpoint. Given its limitations, I am able to comfortably hit steel at 100-150 yds, perhaps a LPVO /ACOG would be of benefit for longer shots, but given my residential area, 25-75 yds would be the longest shot taken in the event of bad situations arising.
One thing to consider is some states don't allow SBRs. So a 14.5" with pinned muzzle device is the shortest option for some. Also alleviates any hassles while traveling across state lines.
You could also do the 13.7" option. There's a few muzzle devices on the market that can get you there.
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Parameters for this carbine:
1) 0-400 capable
2) Day and Night capable
3) Stay light enough to be easily carried in the field
(For the purpose of this exercise let’s assume that night capability is referring to mostly CQB with possible 100yd or less engagements under NODs...no clip on NVDs, only active aiming devices).
Interesting thought exercise and input so far but the more I think about it, the more I begin to question the premise...
How have you arrived at these parameters? Under what scenario are we "in the field" engaging targets out to 400Y (is there a clear 400Y shot to take in your area?) or within 100Y under NODS with registered cans and SBRs where the opposing force isn't domestic LE or US military with equal or better capability? Also, wouldn't they have kicked in your door on the 1st week since you've put yourself on a relatively short (NFA) list?
RobertTheTexan
04-23-20, 10:25
Just to deal with my double dumbass duplicate post...
I’m a big believer in purpose driven guns, but that’s not a reality for some folks. To that end, if I had to grab one rifle it would be my 12.5 hands down. Unlike Euro (who in spite of what most people think about him is really an ok guy.) I didn’t listen to Stickman. I bought a Daniel Defense 12.5 and I’ve been extremely happy with it. If I lived in a state where short barrel rifles are not legal, I would use the SB Tactical SB3 or SBPDW brace.
RobertTheTexan
04-23-20, 10:26
I super duper recommend trying out a decent low-power variable optic with an etched reticle.
I have some pretty significant corneal scarring that makes some dots less than optimal, which is what pushed me in that direction may years ago.
There are quite a few in the same price range of an ACOG, and have the added ability to do both sides of the capability of a carbine.
OP, I think since you are looking for one gun to rule them all that this is the best optic advice you can get. An LPVO like Jack is describing will give you a good close quarters capability and allow you to extend that range range out to 600-700 yards (or more or less) depending on your top end magnification. They are some solid options out there that are definitely worth a look. Potentially better eye relief, 1x power for CQ and a variety of reticle options, and depending on the lpvo, not a huge delta in weight. Take a look at Vortex, and Trijicon. They are in the ACOG price range. I really like my Burris LPVO, and I’ve been impressed and slayed deer with Athlon optics as well. There really are quite a few options that can fit any budget. And reticle options these days are crazy.
Hammer_Man
04-23-20, 10:46
I super duper recommend trying out a decent low-power variable optic with an etched reticle.
I have some pretty significant corneal scarring that makes some dots less than optimal, which is what pushed me in that direction may years ago.
There are quite a few in the same price range of an ACOG, and have the added ability to do both sides of the capability of a carbine.
Just curious if there's a particular make/model you prefer over the others?
You could also do the 13.7" option. There's a few muzzle devices on the market that can get you there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is true, TBH I forgot those exist.
Just to deal with my double dumbass duplicate post...
I’m a big believer in purpose driven guns, but that’s not a reality for some folks. To that end, if I had to grab one rifle it would be my 12.5 hands down. Unlike Euro (who in spite of what most people think about him is really an ok guy.) I didn’t listen to Stickman. I bought a Daniel Defense 12.5 and I’ve been extremely happy with it. If I lived in a state where short barrel rifles are not legal, I would use the SB Tactical SB3 or SBPDW brace.
I've never used one of those braces. How do they compare to using a stock? They just seem kind of flimsy.
Just curious if there's a particular make/model you prefer over the others?
That is true, TBH I forgot those exist.
I've never used one of those braces. How do they compare to using a stock? They just seem kind of flimsy.
My SBA3 with split fix is far better than I expected based on appearance alone. Its worth having if you're allowed. I'm keeping two pistols and then will SBR probably 2-3 other lowers.
Interesting thought exercise and input so far but the more I think about it, the more I begin to question the premise...
How have you arrived at these parameters? Under what scenario are we "in the field" engaging targets out to 400Y (is there a clear 400Y shot to take in your area?) or within 100Y under NODS with registered cans and SBRs where the opposing force isn't domestic LE or US military with equal or better capability? Also, wouldn't they have kicked in your door on the 1st week since you've put yourself on a relatively short (NFA) list?
This has far less to do about the application of said parameters and far more to do with realizing the full capability that the AR platform gives you...based on my perceived capabilities/limitations of the platform.
And no, there's no reason to kick in my door...sorry to end your fishing expedition so abruptly.
I've never used one of those braces. How do they compare to using a stock? They just seem kind of flimsy.
I agree the SBA3 works very well - I have several AR15 SBR lowers but keep a pistol lower with one on it if it's every legally advantagious to have a 'pistol' instead of a 'rifle'. I'd say it's about 85% of what a stock is.
OP, I think since you are looking for one gun to rule them all that this is the best optic advice you can get. An LPVO like Jack is describing will give you a good close quarters capability and allow you to extend that range range out to 600-700 yards (or more or less) depending on your top end magnification. They are some solid options out there that are definitely worth a look. Potentially better eye relief, 1x power for CQ and a variety of reticle options, and depending on the lpvo, not a huge delta in weight. Take a look at Vortex, and Trijicon. They are in the ACOG price range. I really like my Burris LPVO, and I’ve been impressed and slayed deer with Athlon optics as well. There really are quite a few options that can fit any budget. And reticle options these days are crazy.
Thanks RT, I had a pretty long OP mostly for the explanation of the intent of this thread, so it may have been lost in translation. I do already subscribe to the LPVO is king for a GP rifle thought process (NX8 for me). So, really my question can be boiled down to how do you take this "day optimized" GP rifle and use it somewhat optimally under NOD's? Or would it be best to have a spare upper to deal with NOD use (ie, a day upper and a separate night upper).
All the feedback and thought processes presented so far has been great.
I super duper recommend trying out a decent low-power variable optic with an etched reticle.
I have some pretty significant corneal scarring that makes some dots less than optimal, which is what pushed me in that direction may years ago.
There are quite a few in the same price range of an ACOG, and have the added ability to do both sides of the capability of a carbine.
Thank you Sir. By low power do you mean 1-4, 1-6 ?
Thank you Sir. By low power do you mean 1-4, 1-6 ?
All that means is 1x on the low end. There’s so much out there now it comes down to personal preference and your criteria, budget, ect.
This has far less to do about the application of said parameters and far more to do with realizing the full capability that the AR platform gives you...based on my perceived capabilities/limitations of the platform.
And no, there's no reason to kick in my door...sorry to end your fishing expedition so abruptly.
I'm not "fishing" for anything. You answered my question: your parameters weren't based on/informed by application.
From a design standpoint, and we are discussing "designing" a system, that could be a mistake. That's not an indictment on whatever you dreamed up, no need to get defensive.
Thanks RT, I had a pretty long OP mostly for the explanation of the intent of this thread, so it may have been lost in translation. I do already subscribe to the LPVO is king for a GP rifle thought process (NX8 for me). So, really my question can be boiled down to how do you take this "day optimized" GP rifle and use it somewhat optimally under NOD's? Or would it be best to have a spare upper to deal with NOD use (ie, a day upper and a separate night upper).
All the feedback and thought processes presented so far has been great.
Chuck had a video on this exact question, although it may have been in the context of a night time gun is for doing assaulter hood rat things. I'll see if I can find it but I'm pretty sure what he boiled in down to was he uses a separate 11.5 with can and RDS.
I'm not sure if this is the video I was looking for, but relevant. As always, Chuck has a specific perspective.
https://youtu.be/I4wwohV5ueI
This is the one I was thinking of, but less relevant than above.
https://youtu.be/dyx0SiDfR6U
RobertTheTexan
04-23-20, 13:30
Just curious if there's a particular make/model you prefer over the others?
That is true, TBH I forgot those exist.
I've never used one of those braces. How do they compare to using a stock? They just seem kind of flimsy.
Well if you consider that they are not meant to be a stock but to be strapped to your forearm, I think they do pretty well. Over the years I've tried a few braces from Thordsen to Shockwave, which I specifically hated, and compared to those the SB Tactical options I mentioned are GTG. I have a little "hack" I do to try and stabilize the bottom of the brace, and it seems to help. I don't have any long term data on how well they hold up under consistent hard use, but I've have had both of those braces on guns that I run hard and so far they are gtg. I've used them while wearing my Beez PC and/or a chest rig without any issue. I've shot out to 600yds with an SBA3 on my Noveske 14.5 before I p&w'd it, but that was supported, I was able to get consistent hits on steel plates and what I believe were IPSC size steel targets, but I could be wrong. So it worked well enough for that. The SBPDW doesn't collapse nearly to the point my Troy PDW stock (SBR) does. As far as the SBA3 and the SBPDW, there isn't any difference in collapsed length, the SBA3 extends 1/8" of an inch more. Both fully collapsed are 6.75". Now that I think about it, the "PDW" of the SBPDW really isn't "PDW". lol in the sense that you would think that it would collapse more than the SBA3. One thing for sure is the SBPDW is heavier, close to 12 oz heavier. (Assuming SB Tactical data is correct)
titsonritz
04-23-20, 13:39
LPVOs and NODS don't play together very well.
If the NODs drop down, I'm 100% on laser or gross aiming technique. If the laser doesn't work and it's dark, I'm on light + LPVO for GP carbines.
I had my first experience with NODs and UV laser/illuminators just last month (it was the good stuff), this above statement is exactly what I learned. Well that and the setup is a massive force multiplier. Up until then I pretty ruled out owning such a setup due to the cost involved, but after my limited hands-on experience I gotta have me some.
vicious_cb
04-23-20, 14:13
I think that the OP is describing what is basically a mini-recce. A la what Euro mentioned, as much as I love me some old school 12.5 crusader, the issue is putting a stainless steel precision barrel on a GP gun. You are going to eating up a good portion of that accurate barrel life doing up drills at 25yds or running a vtac barricade vs spending that barrel life doing 400yd precision shit. If you can afford to replace barrels then drive on but you arent made of money you need to find a good one minute chrome lined barrel.
Chuck had a video on this exact question, although it may have been in the context of a night time gun is for doing assaulter hood rat things. I'll see if I can find it but I'm pretty sure what he boiled in down to was he uses a separate 11.5 with can and RDS.
I'm not sure if this is the video I was looking for, but relevant. As always, Chuck has a specific perspective.
https://youtu.be/I4wwohV5ueI
I actually came across these two vids last week. Good stuff and obviously his situation is different than mine at a way different level.
I think that the OP is describing what is basically a mini-recce. A la what Euro mentioned, as much as I love me some old school 12.5 crusader, the issue is putting a stainless steel precision barrel on a GP gun. You are going to eating up a good portion of that accurate barrel life doing up drills at 25yds or running a vtac barricade vs spending that barrel life doing 400yd precision shit. If you can afford to replace barrels then drive on but you arent made of money you need to find a good one minute chrome lined barrel.
Haha that’s exactly what I posted in the OP below the parameters. So yes, agreed.
Also agree on the CL vs SS barrel. 1-1.5 MOA is good enough for 400 yds and in.
You could also do the 13.7" option. There's a few muzzle devices on the market that can get you there.
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Don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t understand this logic. If you have a silencer that uses a very long mount, and don’t want to, or can’t, do a SBR or pistol, then sure, pin a long device on a 13.7”. But, I think I’d rather have another inch of barrel and an A2. Or a 14.5” and a modest sized mount. If its all pinned to 16”, then why go shorter on the barrel?
Someone mentioned flimsy pistol braces.... try a Tailhook. Its aluminum. Changed my feelings on pistol braces. I run them on A5 pistol tubes with heat shrink tubing.
MountainRaven
04-23-20, 16:50
I super duper recommend trying out a decent low-power variable optic with an etched reticle.
I have some pretty significant corneal scarring that makes some dots less than optimal, which is what pushed me in that direction may years ago.
There are quite a few in the same price range of an ACOG, and have the added ability to do both sides of the capability of a carbine.
I lean towards ACOGs because of weight. Right now, it seems to me that every LPVO out there turns a light, handy gun into an absolute pig. ACOGs add some weight versus just a Micro or CompM5, but nowhere near as bad as an LPVO.
(I run an RDS in conjunction with the ACOG for close-quarter shooting.)
I lean towards ACOGs because of weight. Right now, it seems to me that every LPVO out there turns a light, handy gun into an absolute pig. ACOGs add some weight versus just a Micro or CompM5, but nowhere near as bad as an LPVO.
(I run an RDS in conjunction with the ACOG for close-quarter shooting.)
What ACOG model do you use and what mount are you using for your Aimpoint Micro RDS ?
MountainRaven
04-23-20, 20:58
What ACOG model do you use and what mount are you using for your Aimpoint Micro RDS ?
TA31 with an RMR piggybacked on it.
I don't use an Aimpoint in conjunction with the ACOG, but by itself currently in a Scalarworks LEAP.
titsonritz
04-23-20, 21:34
I lean towards ACOGs because of weight. Right now, it seems to me that every LPVO out there turns a light, handy gun into an absolute pig.
Have tried a Kahles 1-6x24i and/or NF NX8i? Weight was big reason I focused (pardon the pun) on those two when I was shopping. Yeah they are heavier that my Aimpoint Micro gun but I would call it a pig by any means, at least compared to some I've felt.
MountainRaven
04-23-20, 21:59
Have tried a Kahles 1-6x24i and/or NF NX8i? Weight was big reason I focused (pardon the pun) on those two when I was shopping. Yeah they are heavier that my Aimpoint Micro gun but I would call it a pig by any means, at least compared to some I've felt.
I have not, but I did have a Trijicon AccuPoint 1-6 that was only about 2 oz. heavier than either of those and seemed like a chonky boi.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t understand this logic. If you have a silencer that uses a very long mount, and don’t want to, or can’t, do a SBR or pistol, then sure, pin a long device on a 13.7”. But, I think I’d rather have another inch of barrel and an A2. Or a 14.5” and a modest sized mount. If its all pinned to 16”, then why go shorter on the barrel?
Someone mentioned flimsy pistol braces.... try a Tailhook. Its aluminum. Changed my feelings on pistol braces. I run them on A5 pistol tubes with heat shrink tubing.
No offense taken. It's all fun for discussion.
There's a fairly good thread or two on here where there's a deep dive into the 13.7 world. People who have them love them.
One of the nice things is you get roughly the same dwell time off of a mid length gas port as you do with an 11.5" carbine.
Some people have good results with a 12.5" mid, but most people with 12.5 guns are using carbine length gas.
Overall pressure in a carbine length gas system is just so much higher it's one of the things I like about mid length systems.
If I had fat stacks of cash laying around, I'd love to get a KAC intermediate length gas system upper.
But for how ammo and training is more important... Once ammo prices hey sane again.
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One of the nice things is you get roughly the same dwell time off of a mid length gas port as you do with an 11.5" carbine.
Some people have good results with a 12.5" mid, but most people with 12.5 guns are using carbine length gas.
Eventually, I’m looking forward to trying out a 12.5” EXC length barrel from BRT. Optimized dwell time, etc.
No offense taken. It's all fun for discussion.
There's a fairly good thread or two on here where there's a deep dive into the 13.7 world. People who have them love them.
One of the nice things is you get roughly the same dwell time off of a mid length gas port as you do with an 11.5" carbine.
Some people have good results with a 12.5" mid, but most people with 12.5 guns are using carbine length gas.
Overall pressure in a carbine length gas system is just so much higher it's one of the things I like about mid length systems.
If I had fat stacks of cash laying around, I'd love to get a KAC intermediate length gas system upper.
But for how ammo and training is more important... Once ammo prices hey sane again.
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Yeah, 13.7” to 14” barrels are super handy. And they go well with 13” handguards. My logic is that I’d rather save an inch with the 13.7” with A2 over a p/w 14.7”, and if I can’t, I’d rather have another inch of barrel vs flash hider. Does that inch matter? Probably not. But I’m a bit biased by my love of the A2 flash suppressor. So, I’d feel like I’m spinning my tires by buying a shorter barrel just to put a longer flash hider on it.
I had my first experience with NODs and UV laser/illuminators just last month (it was the good stuff), this above statement is exactly what I learned. Well that and the setup is a massive force multiplier. Up until then I pretty ruled out owning such a setup due to the cost involved, but after my limited hands-on experience I gotta have me some.
From what I'm reading, it sounds like running a laser/illuminator largely negates the problem of LPVOs with NODs. Is that what you guys are saying?
pointblank4445
04-24-20, 11:31
From what I'm reading, it sounds like running a laser/illuminator largely negates the problem of LPVOs with NODs. Is that what you guys are saying?
So long as you don't need a passive aiming option under NODs...It's the way to fly unless "THEY" have NODs too or critters that can see your IR illumination.
TA31 with an RMR piggybacked on it.
I don't use an Aimpoint in conjunction with the ACOG, but by itself currently in a Scalarworks LEAP.
The ACOG/MRDS angle that Doc, Euro, and you have mentioned is intriguing but what are the advantages over a LPVO besides weight? How is eye box, eye relief, glass clarity, ect? You only have a fixed mag @ 3-4x, so PID can suffer a little depending on situation. Another issue for me is that I prefer a mil reticle and use it as a bdc once I know my holds...is there an ACOG with a mil reticle? So what’s the main draw to that setup?
Regarding weight, when I first went to a LPVO from an RDS equipped rifle, it felt like an absolute brick. But funny enough, the more I handled it, the more normal it felt and the RDS rifle, which was my “normal” felt featherweight and tiny (lol). I’ve also seen a difference in handling the more in shape and regular I make it to the gym. Just sayin.
So long as you don't need a passive aiming option under NODs...It's the way to fly unless "THEY" have NODs too or critters that can see your IR illumination.
When you say “passive” are you referring to NOD over non-dominant eye and aiming through the day optic (backup MRDS or otherwise) with your dominant eye and rifle shouldered? This is how I understood what Jack was describing with the piggyback MRDS.
pointblank4445
04-24-20, 12:40
When you say “passive” are you referring to NOD over non-dominant eye and aiming through the day optic (backup MRDS or otherwise) with your dominant eye and rifle shouldered? This is how I understood what Jack was describing with the piggyback MRDS.
Passive in that if your ir or laser will give you away...like your opposition has NODs or are sensitive to IR more so than humans (example our coyotes seem to notice when they get hit with the illuminator....or of you've ever been on the receiving end of a surefire Vampire)
I mention what you/Jack describe above (I know that I'm not a frequent flyer here so my words often go unnoticed) in my personal rig detail as I only have access to a single tube. I also feel I will get more out of a $425 RMR than a $2800 mawl...for the limited time I spend behind NV
Passive in that if your ir or laser will give you away...like your opposition has NODs or are sensitive to IR more so than humans (example our coyotes seem to notice when they get hit with the illuminator....or of you've ever been on the receiving end of a surefire Vampire)
This is absolutely true. I cannot tell you how many times i have seen Conventional Army and Marine units at night working and it looked like a Pink Floyd laser light show under NVG. If the enemy has NV then it would be a slaughterhouse..........
As it is super easy to find and shoot people.
Passive NV means that you are not emitting any light signature, eithe white light of IR light.
Passive in that if your ir or laser will give you away...like your opposition has NODs or are sensitive to IR more so than humans (example our coyotes seem to notice when they get hit with the illuminator....or of you've ever been on the receiving end of a surefire Vampire)
I mention what you/Jack describe above (I know that I'm not a frequent flyer here so my words often go unnoticed) in my personal rig detail as I only have access to a single tube. I also feel I will get more out of a $425 RMR than a $2800 mawl...for the limited time I spend behind NV
Thanks. Both posts are great perspective that adds to the discussion. I guess I was thinking of “passive” as having the NOD placed behind the day optic, but I guess that would be for a more static (vs passive) environment. I had the terminology wrong.
So are you completely foregoing an IR laser/illum for the MRDS option or still using it as primary active IR aiming device with the MRDS as a passive and/or daytime backup? Wasn’t sure after re-reading your posts.
I reside in somewhat congested city, my simple, only one 'long gun' solution is a 10.3" DDV7 with a TA44 ACOG. For anything up to or under 150 yards, its fine. No long range > 200yd shots needed, no real use for NV. Just a simple reliable discrete weapon and easy to transport covertly in the condo elevator.
Thanks. Both posts are great perspective that adds to the discussion. I guess I was thinking of “passive” as having the NOD placed behind the day optic, but I guess that would be for a more static (vs passive) environment. I had the terminology wrong.
So are you completely foregoing an IR laser/illum for the MRDS option or still using it as primary active IR aiming device with the MRDS as a passive and/or daytime backup? Wasn’t sure after re-reading your posts.
I've always understood it to apply to either method, the point just being exactly what doc said about not emitting light.
That said, I have no idea how someone can use a mono on one eye and day aiming optic on the other. I tried it with a PVS-14 and ACOG and it was rough. Not sure if I just suck or there's a fair learning curve to it but I experimented with it for a few days at JRTC. I had better luck just walking the gun onto my target from watching where the miles laser impacted.
pointblank4445
04-24-20, 14:21
Thanks. Both posts are great perspective that adds to the discussion. I guess I was thinking of “passive” as having the NOD placed behind the day optic, but I guess that would be for a more static (vs passive) environment. I had the terminology wrong.
So are you completely foregoing an IR laser/illum for the MRDS option or still using it as primary active IR aiming device with the MRDS as a passive and/or daytime backup? Wasn’t sure after re-reading your posts.
I look at it this way....
Consider armor/plate selection by anyone state-side (LE or civilian) and the proliferation of M855 green tip. One who is purchasing a rifle plate has to factor in the consideration that the likelihood of M855 being used against them is viable and it's a gamble to overlook the ability to defeat it.
I feel similarly with the increased proliferation of NV equipment among the average user. I know SEVERAL cheapo farmers that with their junk NV predator hunter units could cause problems for dudes who (as Doc put it) make the night look like a Floyd show. We've had a long stint overseas where our military is exploiting our enemy's lack of tech/capability and that's not necessarily the case here with NV becoming more prolific.
Don't get me wrong, IR lasers and NV freaking rock, but I don't want to assume anymore that I'm the only kid on my block with that ability.
I'm only foregoing it from a mere value/use standpoint. I still have the ability to aim and shoot stuff under NV and it's passive. It's not the best but it's an option...and my tactics are impacted by my choices. With the IR laser/illuminator, I found that I would make compromises on my optic mount height/field of view obstruction or switchology/light location to allow for it despite the infrequency that the capability was used by my team....or you have something like a MAWL with a hefty cost penalty (or civilian rated junk that costs too much for the limited capability).
If the Covid thing has taught me anything, it's not that I have any gear deficiencies...rather that I wish I live on a bigger piece of land and that $2800 might be better suited for that endeavor rather than tech that will be out of date in 10 years...
But that's my take on it.
pointblank4445
04-24-20, 14:29
I've always understood it to apply to either method, the point just being exactly what doc said about not emitting light.
That said, I have no idea how someone can use a mono on one eye and day aiming optic on the other.
When our braintrust leadership realized we dodged a bullet by having NV outside of snipers, they bought a bunch of PVS14's no lasers.
We had to quickly develop some stopgap measures. You basically could achieve kind of a Bindon aiming concept with an RDS or with pistol nightsights. It was ugly and slow but if practiced it was possible.
Dudes rocking piggyback or tall enough mounted RMR/Eotech/non-tube red dot holosights could Mike Pannone cant that and get the PVS behind it and were more effective.
When our braintrust leadership realized we dodged a bullet by having NV outside of snipers, they bought a bunch of PVS14's no lasers.
We had to quickly develop some stopgap measures. You basically could achieve kind of a Bindon aiming concept with an RDS or with pistol nightsights. It was ugly and slow but if practiced it was possible.
Dudes rocking piggyback or tall enough mounted RMR/Eotech/non-tube red dot holosights could Mike Pannone cant that and get the PVS behind it and were more effective.
Yeah support companies to infantry BNs are the same way. NODs but no lasers. Luckily my current unit is a better unit so we have plenty of PEQs.
Failure2Stop
04-24-20, 16:06
Thank you Sir. By low power do you mean 1-4, 1-6 ?
Agree with the other response; anything at (or close to) 1x at the bottom, and up to 10x currently.
The biggest question is really what your budget is (don't forget to factor in mount), and if there are any features that you know you must have. There are examples in each price range that stand out above others, and a few that I have as personal favorites.
I still have a 1-4x NightForce that is great.
1-6x are still completely viable; the Leupold VX6 Multigun (now discontinued) is solid, and at around $1200 were a great value. The Swarovski 1-6x with BRTi reticle was huge in 3-gun, but lacked in overall robustness; at around 2k it was one of the top 1-6 options before the 1-8s really hit. I am fond of the Kahles k16i as well, though while generally considered to be "hardened" Swarovskis, I liked the BRTi reticle of the Swaro more and the forgiveness of the Swaro seemed better. I may like it more with the new Kahles 3GR reticle. But at around 2k as well, it isn't in a different category. For around $1200, the Bushnell 1-6.5x is a good value. My 1-6s are on 11.5" and 14.5" 5.56 rifles.
I also own a couple 1-8x, with time on a bunch. The original Leupy 1.1-8x is a tank, and has several good features, but is prohibitively costly for most, and somewhat outclassed with the 1-8s that have dropped in the last few years. My two favorites are the NF NX8 1-8x and the now discontinued Swarovski 1-8x BRTi. I like the ATACR 1-8 as well, but I tend to favor just stepping up in magnification/reticle/adjustment for the guns that would usually get the 1-8x ATACR. My 1-8x NX8 lives on a 14.5" 7.62 SR-25, with a realistic max expected range of 500 meters, with 90% inside 200 meters. While I would prefer a more optimized reticle in the NX8, it gets me what I need for inside 200. My Swaro 1-8x is on a 14.5" 6.5 Creedmoor SR-25, that I use as a lightweight precision rifle with a suppressor that I get in and out of vehicles with and move through restrictive terrain with, with expectation to get fast lethal hits from 5 meters to 500 meters, with limited expectation out to 800 meters. In this setup, weight is very important; and with a light, laser, bipod, and suppressor, cutting weight wherever available while retaining capability is why I favored a lightweight 1-8 over a 4-16 with top-mounted dot. In neither application does a FFP reticle give an advantage for me, so the weight and expense of that feature was not necessary. I do use the Swarovski ballistic turret on the 1-8, which I find very useful for precision application past 800 or so.
hotrodder636
04-24-20, 16:35
One point I haven’t really seen discussed or mentioned is if going with the 12.5”, would you use a carbine length or mid length gas system?
One point I haven’t really seen discussed or mentioned is if going with the 12.5”, would you use a carbine length or mid length gas system?
I have both, get rhe carbine gas.
One point I haven’t really seen discussed or mentioned is if going with the 12.5”, would you use a carbine length or mid length gas system?
I prefer correctly ported *chrome lined* 12.5" barrels like Hodge Defence or the Criterion Arms Core. Whenever it becomes available, the 21.9 oz BRT EXC length gas, 12.5 inch , Melonite QPQ, barrel would also be an excellent choice.
vicious_cb
04-24-20, 17:36
Agree with the other response; anything at (or close to) 1x at the bottom, and up to 10x currently.
The biggest question is really what your budget is (don't forget to factor in mount), and if there are any features that you know you must have. There are examples in each price range that stand out above others, and a few that I have as personal favorites.
I still have a 1-4x NightForce that is great.
1-6x are still completely viable; the Leupold VX6 Multigun (now discontinued) is solid, and at around $1200 were a great value. The Swarovski 1-6x with BRTi reticle was huge in 3-gun, but lacked in overall robustness; at around 2k it was one of the top 1-6 options before the 1-8s really hit. I am fond of the Kahles k16i as well, though while generally considered to be "hardened" Swarovskis, I liked the BRTi reticle of the Swaro more and the forgiveness of the Swaro seemed better. I may like it more with the new Kahles 3GR reticle. But at around 2k as well, it isn't in a different category. For around $1200, the Bushnell 1-6.5x is a good value. My 1-6s are on 11.5" and 14.5" 5.56 rifles.
I also own a couple 1-8x, with time on a bunch. The original Leupy 1.1-8x is a tank, and has several good features, but is prohibitively costly for most, and somewhat outclassed with the 1-8s that have dropped in the last few years. My two favorites are the NF NX8 1-8x and the now discontinued Swarovski 1-8x BRTi. I like the ATACR 1-8 as well, but I tend to favor just stepping up in magnification/reticle/adjustment for the guns that would usually get the 1-8x ATACR. My 1-8x NX8 lives on a 14.5" 7.62 SR-25, with a realistic max expected range of 500 meters, with 90% inside 200 meters. While I would prefer a more optimized reticle in the NX8, it gets me what I need for inside 200. My Swaro 1-8x is on a 14.5" 6.5 Creedmoor SR-25, that I use as a lightweight precision rifle with a suppressor that I get in and out of vehicles with and move through restrictive terrain with, with expectation to get fast lethal hits from 5 meters to 500 meters, with limited expectation out to 800 meters. In this setup, weight is very important; and with a light, laser, bipod, and suppressor, cutting weight wherever available while retaining capability is why I favored a lightweight 1-8 over a 4-16 with top-mounted dot. In neither application does a FFP reticle give an advantage for me, so the weight and expense of that feature was not necessary. I do use the Swarovski ballistic turret on the 1-8, which I find very useful for precision application past 800 or so.
Any experience on the new Vortex Razor 1-10x? The guys who evaluated them are preferring them over the ATACR 1-8x.
One point I haven’t really seen discussed or mentioned is if going with the 12.5”, would you use a carbine length or mid length gas system? mine are carbine length, and I like that. Although I may do a dedicated suppressed rig in the future, and maybe go longer with the gas tube. But both of mine handle suppressors without drama.
hotrodder636
04-24-20, 17:58
I have both, get rhe carbine gas.
Suppressed or unsuppressed? Would it matter?
Suppressed or unsuppressed? Would it matter?
I shoot both, with both. I prefer the carbine gas system. It is more reliable.
I shoot both, with both. I prefer the carbine gas system. It is more reliable.
Everybody always says that the carbine gas system was designed around an 11.5” gun. I’m no expert, but there were a few different iterations of that gun, with at least two barrel lengths, and I usually picture the defining version as an 11.5” with a tiny suppressor twisted on the end. In light of all that, I feel that the carbine gas system is suitable for the 12.5” guns. I could be wrong, but its working for me so far. Excepting that subsonic experiment we talked about, I don’t think I’ve had any stoppages with mine yet. They just work.
Any experience on the new Vortex Razor 1-10x? The guys who evaluated them are preferring them over the ATACR 1-8x.
I'm curious what more experienced people would say about maxing out high power mag on a 12.5 gun. If the 1-10 has all things on 1x equal to the 1-6, I assume the only downside is cost. But I'd be curious how many people think that much mag on a short gun is stupid. Personally, 6x doesn't help with shooting groups at 100m as much as I'd hope so I feel like its viable, especially when you're talking PID and observation considerations over actual accuracy.
vicious_cb
04-24-20, 20:01
I'm curious what more experienced people would say about maxing out high power mag on a 12.5 gun. If the 1-10 has all things on 1x equal to the 1-6, I assume the only downside is cost. But I'd be curious how many people think that much mag on a short gun is stupid. Personally, 6x doesn't help with shooting groups at 100m as much as I'd hope so I feel like its viable, especially when you're talking PID and observation considerations over actual accuracy.
IMHO, I want all the magnification as long as it isnt costing you on the lower end. If your occupation involves you needing to tell whether that lump on the ground is a some dude in the prone or a rock then I'd want as much magnification as possible. If someone is using too much mag and theyre getting all this heat mirage distortion then thats a software issue not a hardware one.
IMHO, I want all the magnification as long as it isnt costing you on the lower end. If your occupation involves you needing to tell whether that lump on the ground is a some dude in the prone or a rock then I'd want as much magnification as possible. If someone is using too much mag and theyre getting all this heat mirage distortion then thats a software issue not a hardware one.
That's kind of what I figured. If nothing else with a FFP, its not like you have to use all the mag, so as long as the reticle is daylight bright and usable on 1x and the eyebox doesn't suck, I assume it'd be solid.
For a 400 yds and in LPV, *I* still prefer my second focal plane, 16.9 ounce, K16i, with it's generous eye box and it's huge field of view. If I would need past 400 yds capability much, *I* would choose the 4.6 oz heavier, 21.5 oz Vortex Gen 3 Razor 1-10X, LPV. *I* would probably also put it on a 16 inch barreled rifle.
Excellent thread, I'm picking up quite a bit of info. Our intention is to move to a free State (we're 2 years past due), and I want to take advantage of short barrels and NFA items.
As a civilian, when I think of a GP rifle, I think of the rifle I would grab first when I leave the house, don't know what I will encounter, or when I will come back.
It changes the definition, for me, if I know what the mission will be and when I'll come back.
I don't want to change the direction of the thread, but does that definition change anyone's rifle build?
hotrodder636
04-25-20, 13:59
That is what I was looking for, thanks.
I shoot both, with both. I prefer the carbine gas system. It is more reliable.
I am looking to put a 12.5” upper together with Criterion barrel, Geissele rail. This thread popped up at the right time.
pointblank4445
04-25-20, 14:18
Excellent thread, I'm picking up quite a bit of info. Our intention is to move to a free State (we're 2 years past due), and I want to take advantage of short barrels and NFA items.
As a civilian, when I think of a GP rifle, I think of the rifle I would grab first when I leave the house, don't know what I will encounter, or when I will come back.
It changes the definition, for me, if I know what the mission will be and when I'll come back.
I don't want to change the direction of the thread, but does that definition change anyone's rifle build?
Same. I have a CQB/night fighting-oriented rig; an SPR/DMR rig that while mission-specific are still somewhat versatile, but my "the one-gun" setup is the most adaptive and versatile with a lot of trial and error in finding the proper balance in being fully capable while not being a disproportionate pig or worse...the "jack-of-all, master-of-none" abomination that does nothing well.
I'm curious what more experienced people would say about maxing out high power mag on a 12.5 gun. If the 1-10 has all things on 1x equal to the 1-6, I assume the only downside is cost. But I'd be curious how many people think that much mag on a short gun is stupid. Personally, 6x doesn't help with shooting groups at 100m as much as I'd hope so I feel like its viable, especially when you're talking PID and observation considerations over actual accuracy.
I think the major advantage to the magnification is PID. This is not only applicable at range, but through windows.
Same. I have a CQB/night fighting-oriented rig; an SPR/DMR rig that while mission-specific are still somewhat versatile, but my "the one-gun" setup is the most adaptive and versatile with a lot of trial and error in finding the proper balance in being fully capable while not being a disproportionate pig or worse...the "jack-of-all, master-of-none" abomination that does nothing well.
Thanks to the thread for all the ideas and considerations.
True, and for me it means that I'll have to prioritize. Short barrels do improve handling in tight spaces and help concealment in the open. The question I'm left with; Is there a meaningful reduction in reliability and is it an acceptable risk. MTBF (based on round count) if I'm out there for a longer period of time. Can I mitigate any downside by packing spare parts.
Is a lower velocity acceptable in a GP rifle? I'm thinking it is for 95+% of shots to 300 with a Mk262 type round, but what about a 55gr pill?
I'm a fan of LVPOs but I only have three old school tubes, and several APs and MROs. Will I use NV? Well, I've been very close to buying a PVS 14 several times, but I'm not excited about headgear. Remember, I'm a civi, its for HD.
Also, I don't know how to get a decent IR laser. I'm pretty sure the civilian versions will be weak sauce crap. So NV is up in the air as a targeting device, but for threat detection I think its a must have. For my needs.
Has anyone tried thermal? Trijicon has a nice small thermal scope, but its 7-8K.
So, I think I will build a pistol, with a 12.5" barrel, haven't decided on the gas system. I'll stick a 1-6 or 1-8 LPVO on it with a T2 in my pack, and muffle it with a robust can. I'll figure out NV later.
Thanks to the thread for all the ideas and considerations.
True, and for me it means that I'll have to prioritize. Short barrels do improve handling in tight spaces and help concealment in the open. The question I'm left with; Is there a meaningful reduction in reliability and is it an acceptable risk. MTBF (based on round count) if I'm out there for a longer period of time. Can I mitigate any downside by packing spare parts.
Is a lower velocity acceptable in a GP rifle? I'm thinking it is for 95+% of shots to 300 with a Mk262 type round, but what about a 55gr pill?
I'm a fan of LVPOs but I only have three old school tubes, and several APs and MROs. Will I use NV? Well, I've been very close to buying a PVS 14 several times, but I'm not excited about headgear. Remember, I'm a civi, its for HD.
Also, I don't know how to get a decent IR laser. I'm pretty sure the civilian versions will be weak sauce crap. So NV is up in the air as a targeting device, but for threat detection I think its a must have. For my needs.
Has anyone tried thermal? Trijicon has a nice small thermal scope, but its 7-8K.
So, I think I will build a pistol, with a 12.5" barrel, haven't decided on the gas system. I'll stick a 1-6 or 1-8 LPVO on it with a T2 in my pack, and muffle it with a robust can. I'll figure out NV later.
I don’t think civilian lasers are weak. Weaker sure, but they’re absolutely usable.
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pointblank4445
04-25-20, 17:39
Has anyone tried thermal? Trijicon has a nice small thermal scope, but its 7-8K.
Thermal to find, NV to identify.
Awesome for hunting, but a dedicated Thermal weapon scope might not be the best use of funds in this context...for most.
I look at it this way....
Consider armor/plate selection by anyone state-side (LE or civilian) and the proliferation of M855 green tip. One who is purchasing a rifle plate has to factor in the consideration that the likelihood of M855 being used against them is viable and it's a gamble to overlook the ability to defeat it.
I feel similarly with the increased proliferation of NV equipment among the average user. I know SEVERAL cheapo farmers that with their junk NV predator hunter units could cause problems for dudes who (as Doc put it) make the night look like a Floyd show. We've had a long stint overseas where our military is exploiting our enemy's lack of tech/capability and that's not necessarily the case here with NV becoming more prolific.
Don't get me wrong, IR lasers and NV freaking rock, but I don't want to assume anymore that I'm the only kid on my block with that ability.
I'm only foregoing it from a mere value/use standpoint. I still have the ability to aim and shoot stuff under NV and it's passive. It's not the best but it's an option...and my tactics are impacted by my choices. With the IR laser/illuminator, I found that I would make compromises on my optic mount height/field of view obstruction or switchology/light location to allow for it despite the infrequency that the capability was used by my team....or you have something like a MAWL with a hefty cost penalty (or civilian rated junk that costs too much for the limited capability).
If the Covid thing has taught me anything, it's not that I have any gear deficiencies...rather that I wish I live on a bigger piece of land and that $2800 might be better suited for that endeavor rather than tech that will be out of date in 10 years...
But that's my take on it.
Interesting take and thanks for taking the time to explain. I'm definitely leaning toward trying the piggyback MRDS as a backup to day/active IR target acquisition after your and Jack's posts here. Sounds like it's really the only mousetrap that works when running the LPVO as a day optic. And I do understand your thought process on the passive vs. active anti-detection considerations and one that I really haven't thought about...although my limited understanding of IR laser/illumination TTP's is basically to treat it like it's white light and you should be fine in that respect.
As for the bolded part, I was just talking about that with a family member. Having a place outside of the city is now a much higher priority. If Covid was truly a deadly bug, things would have gotten real sporty, real fast with how our media works. I'll just try to have both the tech and land ;)
vicious_cb
04-25-20, 18:24
I don’t think civilian lasers are weak. Weaker sure, but they’re absolutely usable.
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The MAWL C+ doesnt give up anything over a restricted PEQ-15.
Agree with the other response; anything at (or close to) 1x at the bottom, and up to 10x currently.
The biggest question is really what your budget is (don't forget to factor in mount), and if there are any features that you know you must have. There are examples in each price range that stand out above others, and a few that I have as personal favorites.
I still have a 1-4x NightForce that is great.
1-6x are still completely viable; the Leupold VX6 Multigun (now discontinued) is solid, and at around $1200 were a great value. The Swarovski 1-6x with BRTi reticle was huge in 3-gun, but lacked in overall robustness; at around 2k it was one of the top 1-6 options before the 1-8s really hit. I am fond of the Kahles k16i as well, though while generally considered to be "hardened" Swarovskis, I liked the BRTi reticle of the Swaro more and the forgiveness of the Swaro seemed better. I may like it more with the new Kahles 3GR reticle. But at around 2k as well, it isn't in a different category. For around $1200, the Bushnell 1-6.5x is a good value. My 1-6s are on 11.5" and 14.5" 5.56 rifles.
I also own a couple 1-8x, with time on a bunch. The original Leupy 1.1-8x is a tank, and has several good features, but is prohibitively costly for most, and somewhat outclassed with the 1-8s that have dropped in the last few years. My two favorites are the NF NX8 1-8x and the now discontinued Swarovski 1-8x BRTi. I like the ATACR 1-8 as well, but I tend to favor just stepping up in magnification/reticle/adjustment for the guns that would usually get the 1-8x ATACR. My 1-8x NX8 lives on a 14.5" 7.62 SR-25, with a realistic max expected range of 500 meters, with 90% inside 200 meters. While I would prefer a more optimized reticle in the NX8, it gets me what I need for inside 200. My Swaro 1-8x is on a 14.5" 6.5 Creedmoor SR-25, that I use as a lightweight precision rifle with a suppressor that I get in and out of vehicles with and move through restrictive terrain with, with expectation to get fast lethal hits from 5 meters to 500 meters, with limited expectation out to 800 meters. In this setup, weight is very important; and with a light, laser, bipod, and suppressor, cutting weight wherever available while retaining capability is why I favored a lightweight 1-8 over a 4-16 with top-mounted dot. In neither application does a FFP reticle give an advantage for me, so the weight and expense of that feature was not necessary. I do use the Swarovski ballistic turret on the 1-8, which I find very useful for precision application past 800 or so.
Awesome info Jack, thanks for your contributions here. Some of your posts early on about LPVO's has helped me through the years with different optic purchases.
Excellent thread, I'm picking up quite a bit of info. Our intention is to move to a free State (we're 2 years past due), and I want to take advantage of short barrels and NFA items.
As a civilian, when I think of a GP rifle, I think of the rifle I would grab first when I leave the house, don't know what I will encounter, or when I will come back.
It changes the definition, for me, if I know what the mission will be and when I'll come back.
I don't want to change the direction of the thread, but does that definition change anyone's rifle build?
Same. I have a CQB/night fighting-oriented rig; an SPR/DMR rig that while mission-specific are still somewhat versatile, but my "the one-gun" setup is the most adaptive and versatile with a lot of trial and error in finding the proper balance in being fully capable while not being a disproportionate pig or worse...the "jack-of-all, master-of-none" abomination that does nothing well.
It's definitely not changing the premise of the thread at all and the bolded part of PB4445's post describes my intention for the "one gun solution" well. If funds are limited and/or you're just not the type of person to have multiple different setups (some mediocre, sub-standard, or half complete....and don't hardly get shot) then how would you setup your go-to rig to be capable and effective in close quarters and out at range (whether that's realistic or not, I still want the capability) during day (out to 400yds) or night (out to ~100yds)? Like I've mentioned, the LPVO SBR or "Mini-RECCE" is that platform for me during the day...the night-time capability was where I needed guys like F2S, Docsherm, and PB4445 to chime in with their experience.
Interesting take and thanks for taking the time to explain. I'm definitely leaning toward trying the piggyback MRDS as a backup to day/active IR target acquisition after your and Jack's posts here. Sounds like it's really the only mousetrap that works when running the LPVO as a day optic. And I do understand your thought process on the passive vs. active anti-detection considerations and one that I really haven't thought about...although my limited understanding of IR laser/illumination TTP's is basically to treat it like it's white light and you should be fine in that respect.
As for the bolded part, I was just talking about that with a family member. Having a place outside of the city is now a much higher priority. If Covid was truly a deadly bug, things would have gotten real sporty, real fast with how our media works. I'll just try to have both the tech and land ;)
I definitely want to try the top mount MRDS. I like my offset RDS, but it creates quite a bit of bulk, especially with how my throw lever is oriented on 1x. If I can reduce bulk and weight at the same time as having a slightly more effective aiming solution with nods, I definitely want to compare to what I currently have.
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Take whatever AR you have, put Ultradyne irons on it (easily move from 0 to 400 yards), and adjustable white light for no light, and maybe a visible laser for low light. Or you can scrap you rifle, spend thousands and thousands of dollars on short barrels, Aimpoints, night vision and IR lasers.
What?
pointblank4445
04-25-20, 22:10
I definitely want to try the top mount MRDS. I like my offset RDS, but it creates quite a bit of bulk, especially with how my throw lever is oriented on 1x. If I can reduce bulk and weight at the same time as having a slightly more effective aiming solution with nods, I definitely want to compare to what I currently have.
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Give it a whirl. It always confused me that many put it down but so many guys are scrambling to put their sight at 1.93...2.04...2.25...and higher all the time for heads up but piss and moan about "chinweld" when you put in on top of the front ring...I don't get it.
I will say that I popped an ACRO to try on top and it's legit. Don't like the lines/footprint aesthetics of it over the RMR or the proprietary battery but that little sucker feels like a REAL primary aiming device. Haven't looked at it through NV yet, but initial impressions are good.
Give it a whirl. It always confused me that many put it down but so many guys are scrambling to put their sight at 1.93...2.04...2.25...and higher all the time for heads up but piss and moan about "chinweld" when you put in on top of the front ring...I don't get it.
I will say that I popped an ACRO to try on top and it's legit. Don't like the lines/footprint aesthetics of it over the RMR or the proprietary battery but that little sucker feels like a REAL primary aiming device. Haven't looked at it through NV yet, but initial impressions are good.
As soon as Badger releases the mount for the C1, I plan on it. A few years ago I thought the same thing about an ACOG and top mounted RMR. Then I tried a 1.93 and liked it for the most part. Now that I think I’m settling on the 1.7, I agree that a top mounted MRDS seems fair with the ever higher mounts gaining popularity for primary optics.
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As soon as Badger releases the mount for the C1, I plan on it. A few years ago I thought the same thing about an ACOG and top mounted RMR. Then I tried a 1.93 and liked it for the most part. Now that I think I’m settling on the 1.7, I agree that a top mounted MRDS seems fair with the ever higher mounts gaining popularity for primary optics.
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Are you planning on a laser? If so, where do you plan on mounting it (RE: 1.70 vs 1.93 mount)?
Are you planning on a laser? If so, where do you plan on mounting it (RE: 1.70 vs 1.93 mount)?
Not yet sadly. I just sent my application for a trust to a lawyer and figured I’d get into NFA stuff before NODs and lasers so I probably have a few years before I get there. But this thread has me debating on how everything would be set up based off of what I know I like right now.
I am, however, hoping to be able to play with one or two of my personal uppers with some work lasers and nods within the next year or so.
ETA - misread your post. I assume I'll put some type of laser at the 12:00 which is why I'm curious how well that'd work with a Razor in the 1.7 mount.
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I look at it this way....
If the Covid thing has taught me anything, it's not that I have any gear deficiencies...rather that I wish I live on a bigger piece of land and that $2800 might be better suited for that endeavor rather than tech that will be out of date in 10 years...
Yep. This is how I feel as well.
Canonshooter
04-26-20, 09:52
The "one AR solution" is, IMO, driven entirely by one's own circumstances and needs. What may be way too "Tactical Timmy" for one user may be legitimately needed by another.
ARs are a major financial rabbit hole. All the marketing hype for the "must-need" gear and accessories is cultivated in magazines and online forums. As a result purchase decisions are often impulsive and made without the needed critical thinking;
What's it for?
What are my realistic needs for a defensive or general purpose rifle?
Would my money be better spent elsewhere (like training) rather than some latest & greatest must-need doodad?
Then there's the entire NFA thing. Sure, personally I'd love to have a SBR set up with a suppressor, but my lack of desire to submit myself to the big-brother process (not to mention the expenditure) has remained the determining factor as to why I haven't scratched that itch (at least as of yet).
So back on-topic, here is my own "critical thinking" analysis for a one-AR solution based on what I believe are realistic needs;
I live in an area that is heavily wooded and hilly. A typical "defensive long shot" would be under 300 yards (a simple visual survey of the surrounding area combined with Google maps tells the story)
I want the lightest configuration possible. I have discovered first-hand how easy it is to loose track of accessory weight and end up with a boat anchor rifle.
Keeping things lightweight requires some compromise. What features to compromise requires critical thinking on realistic needs.
I want a rifle that carries and handles well, and is easy to shoot from typical field positions
I want a rifle that I can engage targets within the 300 yard envelope quickly and with utter confidence
I want the rifle to consistently shoot terminally-effective ammo with adequate precision and total reliability
I want a tier-1 quality rifle that from a maker that has a proven track record
Having spend way too much $$ over the past few decades trying configurations and accessories that left me wanting, about five years ago I assembled a "general purpose defensive rifle" that admirably fits my needs/expectations, and is in fact the only AR I now own;
BCM complete lower fitted with a Geissele SSA and A5 RE/A5-2 buffer
BCM complete mid-length upper, 16-inch BFH ELW
Leupold FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm (https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/fx-ii-ultralight-2-5x20mm) scope in a Daniel Defense mount (https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defenser-1-optics-mount-double-ring.html). The entire package is lightweight (12 ounces), low profile and snag-free.
Midwest Industries offset BUIS
Two 5-slot rails at the front of the handguard, one at 9 o'clock to mount a WML and one at 6 o'clock to mount a bipod (both of which are only attached as needed)
Multiple sling attachment points for the various slings I own
Rifle as shown in photo below with unloaded magazine weights 7.5 lbs.
This rifle consistently shoots 1.3 MOA or better with Speer 75 grain .223 Gold Dot ammo. It functions flawlessly and smoothly with this (my go-to) ammo, as it does with every 77 grain OTM 5.56 load I've tried.
After spending untold money on LPVO scopes, I purchased the Leupold on a whim, based on it's extremely light weight and it's excellent reputation as a dangerous game rifle scope (heavy recoil). It's bright, clear, has long eye relief and is easy to shoot with both eyes open. It has an adjustable, lockable eyepiece that renders the simple duplex reticle razor sharp. Coming from the other scopes with which I always felt compelled to dick round with reticle brightness, magnification and parallax adjustments, this Leupold scope is a 100% hands-free point-and-shoot solution. It turns out that at least for me, losing all those settings I used to fiddle-dick around with is not as much of a sacrifice as I thought it would be. Sometimes, there really is elegance in simplicity.
With the factory-set parallax distance of 150 yards, I have the 75 grain Gold Dots zeroed at that range. At 100 yards the POI is 0.8" high, at 300 yards 14.2" low - quite manageable within the intended defensive engagement envelope.
This is the "one AR" solution that works for me. I really like this rifle. As an old guy, I like simple things that I can use effectively, and this configuration nails it for me.
I hope you find this old guy diatribe useful, no offense to anyone intended.
Obligatory Photo
https://i.ibb.co/7j48Zjp/rifle-3.jpg
vicious_cb
04-26-20, 12:52
Thats great and all but are you really going to use that optic in a house? Whats the plan for low light in a structure?
Canonshooter
04-26-20, 14:29
Thats great and all but are you really going to use that optic in a house? Whats the plan for low light in a structure?
https://i.ibb.co/chT2z03/edc-7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/QY8qgBD/1187wml-3.jpg
justin_247
04-26-20, 17:52
I'm not sure Canonshooter bothered to read the thread...
I'm not sure Canonshooter bothered to read the thread...
One can wonder
I'm not sure Canonshooter bothered to read the thread...
Well, that is a sweet scattergun.
Canonshooter
04-26-20, 18:24
I'm not sure Canonshooter bothered to read the thread...
I did read most of the thread but lost track of the gist of the original question posed. My bad, sorry for the drift.
Well, that is a sweet scattergun.
It sure is.
jacksonrobert
04-26-20, 18:36
Is “RECCE” being overused? It is a reconnaissance rifle. Now it seems everyone uses it for anything. Great article on building a “RECCE” rifle.
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/recce-rifle/
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Is “RECCE” being overused? It is a reconnaissance rifle. Now it seems everyone uses it for anything. Great article on building a “RECCE” rifle.
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/recce-rifle/
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The only thing on his list that most here aren't advocating is a 16 inch barrel...
I don’t think civilian lasers are weak. Weaker sure, but they’re absolutely usable.
Yeah, I'd just be pissed if I had to spend $1500 on an IR laser illuminator that is weak sauce. I already think they are way over priced.
Thermal to find, NV to identify.
Awesome for hunting, but a dedicated Thermal weapon scope might not be the best use of funds in this context...for most.
True, the good thermal scopes are very very expensive and they are fixed to the rifle.
Maybe a mid-range thermal monocular, and more traditional NV for targeting.
Thanks
The MAWL C+ doesnt give up anything over a restricted PEQ-15.
That becomes ridiculously expensive for a civilian. $3000 for the Laser/Illuminator and another close to $4000 for the NV.
I'll figure out the NV targeting later. For now I'll concentrate on low light detection.
EDIT: *** Well, I just realized that I should probably get rid of some of the eighteen rifles I have that are chambered in 5.56 and instead put the money into building a shorter barrel rifle and obtaining some NV equipment...
I guess I could get by 8 or 10 rifles instead of 18. LOL
The only thing on his list that most here aren't advocating is a 16 inch barrel...
Yeah, I can see the usefulness of a short barrel myself.
I've never really (At least since about 2009.) seen the difference between the REECE concept and what most of us build/buy these days when we build a 16" AR. At one time perhaps the REECE concept was new, but now its fairly standard.
The only thing on his list that most here aren't advocating is a 16 inch barrel...
Exactly, and most including me are even calling it a “Mini-RECCE” for that exact reason.
What rail/hand guard are guys that run 12.5” barrels using?
What rail/hand guard are guys that run 12.5” barrels using?
11 inch rail
What rail/hand guard are guys that run 12.5” barrels using?
10.75 URX4
11.7 SLR
The SLR is the absolute max length, and the barrel on that gun has a taper mount linear comp. I’d be uncomfortable with a brake on it.
That becomes ridiculously expensive for a civilian. $3000 for the Laser/Illuminator and another close to $4000 for the NV.
I'll figure out the NV targeting later. For now I'll concentrate on low light detection.
EDIT: *** Well, I just realized that I should probably get rid of some of the eighteen rifles I have that are chambered in 5.56 and instead put the money into building a shorter barrel rifle and obtaining some NV equipment...
I guess I could get by 8 or 10 rifles instead of 18. LOL
That's what I did. Very happy with the decision. I'm down to just about a half dozen long guns but I have some pretty sweet night toys.
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Eurodriver
04-27-20, 09:41
eh nevermind. 5.56 AR thread
BrigandTwoFour
04-27-20, 09:59
The only thing on his list that most here aren't advocating is a 16 inch barrel...
That's actually my article (and one definitely in need of an update/refresh), so I thought I'd throw some context into this. For a do-all carbine, I actually prefer something in the 12.5" to 14.5" range. But the reason I advocated for a 16" barrel is that my readers are generally pretty new to the AR world. They usually find my site while looking for their first gun or two and heard a phrase somewhere (a la "RECCE Rifle") and what to know what it is. I'm trying to keep them out of NFA problems or issues related to pin/weld configurations when they inevitably want to start playing around with different rails and muzzle devices later on.
That particular article was also touching on the historical roots of the "recce." But, on the topic of the thread, my personal ideal "do-all" would be something like a 12.5" Kino or a 14.5", free-floated, pinned gas block, and an optic in the 1-6x/8x range. With extra funds, there would probably be an offset RMR as a backup.
Failure2Stop
04-27-20, 11:03
Exactly, and most including me are even calling it a “Mini-RECCE” for that exact reason.
I think that the truly functional elements of the "Recce" concept are small mid-power max magnification (8x-12x) optic, enabler-focused handguard, suppressor, and decent ammunition.
Of those, the optic really makes the most difference in achieving the purpose of the rifle in daylight conditions.
As a community, we've been dancing around conformity with the concept for a while now, and with 8x and 10x LPVOs readily available, we're pretty much there.
I bring you, 14.5" SR-15 https://www.knightarmco.com/12011/shop/commercial-firearms/sr-15-e3-carbine-mod-2-m-lok
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I think that the truly functional elements of the "Recce" concept are small mid-power max magnification (8x-12x) optic, enabler-focused handguard, suppressor, and decent ammunition.
Of those, the optic really makes the most difference in achieving the purpose of the rifle in daylight conditions.
As a community, we've been dancing around conformity with the concept for a while now, and with 8x and 10x LPVOs readily available, we're pretty much there.
When you say enabler focused, are you more or less referring to using a laser with minimal shift and maybe thermal/NOD scope attachments?
Eurodriver
04-27-20, 15:07
When you say enabler focused, are you more or less referring to using a laser with minimal shift and maybe thermal/NOD scope attachments?
Yes, he is.
Failure2Stop
04-27-20, 16:49
When you say enabler focused, are you more or less referring to using a laser with minimal shift and maybe thermal/NOD scope attachments?
Yes, but not limited to lasers and clip-on inline devices; but also the support of things that make the task at hand easier: bipods, direct-attach tripod integration, mounted laser rangefinders, and the like; but without imparting detrimental effect on the baseline capability. It's not *just* being freefloating, and it's not *just* having accessory mounting provisions; it's having them be long enough, strong enough, robust enough, and repeatable enough to be consistently dependable.
Hammer_Man
04-28-20, 16:00
Yes, but not limited to lasers and clip-on inline devices; but also the support of things that make the task at hand easier: bipods, direct-attach tripod integration, mounted laser rangefinders, and the like; but without imparting detrimental effect on the baseline capability. It's not *just* being freefloating, and it's not *just* having accessory mounting provisions; it's having them be long enough, strong enough, robust enough, and repeatable enough to be consistently dependable.
Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite handguard?
Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite handguard?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that'll say URX4 haha.
Hammer_Man
04-28-20, 16:16
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that'll say URX4 haha.
That's kind of what I was expecting, but then you never know until you ask.
Failure2Stop
04-28-20, 16:29
Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite handguard?
I do have a nostalgic fondness for the MK 12 FF RAS.
I didn’t expect to really care about it, but I like the aesthetics of what FCD did with their rail to pay homage to the RAS.
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[QUOTE=mig1nc;2836618]I bring you, 14.5" SR-15 https://www.knightarmco.com/12011/shop/commercial-firearms/sr-15-e3-carbine-mod-2-m-lok
Hi just recently joined the forum and am doing my research for an AR15. A question keeps popping in to my mind as to why there is an attraction to a 14.5 barrel as opposed to a 16"? Considering the fact that the flash hider must be pinned/welded, that eliminates the ability for being able to change the flash hider. Once the flash hider is pinned/welded, you essentially have the same size as a 16" firearm. So can you help me understand what might be the advantages of going with a 14.5" barrel?
Thanks all.
[QUOTE=mig1nc;2836618]I bring you, 14.5" SR-15 https://www.knightarmco.com/12011/shop/commercial-firearms/sr-15-e3-carbine-mod-2-m-lok
Hi just recently joined the forum and am doing my research for an AR15. A question keeps popping in to my mind as to why there is an attraction to a 14.5 barrel as opposed to a 16"? Considering the fact that the flash hider must be pinned/welded, that eliminates the ability for being able to change the flash hider. Once the flash hider is pinned/welded, you essentially have the same size as a 16" firearm. So can you help me understand what might be the advantages of going with a 14.5" barrel?
Thanks all.
Hi. There's quite a few reasons. First, you should know that a competent gunsmith can un-pin a flash hider with little effort. Second, if you are talking about an unsuppressed carbine-length gas system like an M4A1, you have the same distance from the gas port to the muzzle as the original M16, which is what the system was timed for. However, if you go out to midlength or longer, you end up with much lower gas port pressure, closer to M16 port pressure, and can tune it into a very soft shooting gun. Third, it is shorter and lighter. The barrel is the heaviest part of an AR15. Lastly, and I think most importantly, it's the easiest to get as short as possible without needing NFA paperwork or use a pistol lower. If you want to go shorter with more flash suppression or are using a can, you might be able to go down to 13.9 or 13.7 inches with your mount. I guess also with a 14.5" midlength and a suppressor you end up with a better balance of bolt unlock timing compared with suppressor back-pressure.
There's probably more, but it's largely just personal choice. You can tune anything to run well if you understand how to balance mass, action spring, and gas port.
I hope that helps!
If you use pretty near any good muzzle device on a 14.5 you will be over 16 as mig mentioned, but still 1.5 shorter than a 16 incher with the same device attached.
I recently replaced the 16" barrel on mt range rifle with a 13.7" with a pinned JP Enterprises flash hider - I chose this hidewr based on its performance in testing and it's design which includes a shroud that goes over the barrel so you are pinning in a thicker area than on the barrel threads. Came out just a smidge over 16"
You can tell the difference - the 13.7 is 6.6oz lighter and the JP flash hider was .8 oz lighter than the SilencerCo ASR it replaced, for a total savings of 7.4 ounces, all most a half pound.
Hi just recently joined the forum and am doing my research for an AR15. A question keeps popping in to my mind as to why there is an attraction to a 14.5 barrel as opposed to a 16"? Considering the fact that the flash hider must be pinned/welded, that eliminates the ability for being able to change the flash hider. Once the flash hider is pinned/welded, you essentially have the same size as a 16" firearm. So can you help me understand what might be the advantages of going with a 14.5" barrel?
Thanks all.
I have a couple 14.5" and quite a few 16". I usually go 16 because its less hassle when you want to change muzzle device. Also, there are a number of different barrel profiles that can lighten the barrel.
It is true, that a rifle with 14.5" feels a little more nimble than a 16, all else being equal. But there are other things that can change the feel and balance of the rifle significantly, including the weight of the stock and optic, also, the weight, length and diameter of the rail.
I also prefer the way a 16" mid-length shoots over a 14.5" when it comes to recoil impulse. YMMV
Finally, there is a small difference in the velocity between the 14.5 and 16.
Everyone here signing the 12.5 praises got to me. I just ordered a Hodge 12.5 with the 0.69 gas port for better ammo and parts compatibility. I also ordered an upper and gas block from FCD. I’m planning on having JT build me the FCD upper with the Hodge barrel so I still need the 11.5 rail and MD, which will probably be a MAMS since I’m completely set on getting a QDC can in the future. I’ll probably put my 1-6 Razor on this and some point down the line out the 1-10 on my KAC.
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20" A2 with Magpul Furniture and a light.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Everyone here signing the 12.5 praises got to me. I just ordered a Hodge 12.5 with the 0.69 gas port for better ammo and parts compatibility. I also ordered an upper and gas block from FCD. I’m planning on having JT build me the FCD upper with the Hodge barrel so I still need the 11.5 rail and MD, which will probably be a MAMS since I’m completely set on getting a QDC can in the future. I’ll probably put my 1-6 Razor on this and some point down the line out the 1-10 on my KAC.
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That's a heck of a nice build right there.
I wish people tried to justify their answers instead of saying “20 inch with magpul furniture and a light.” What am I gaining by an extra 8” of barrel besides some insignificant velocity?
Anyways, a single do all rifle without monetary concerns would essentially (to me) be a 12.5” upper with some type of wedgelock or similarly stable rail. Pick your poison of lower/stock/grip with a G$ trigger. Add a can, a MAWL, and a Modlite to the front. A modern LPVO best covers optical needs probably either a Kahles of a Razor in either 1-6/8/10 these days in a Badger mount and add a piggyback RMR if you want a passive sight under NVG.
A legit do it all rifle isn’t going to be your hyper-lite rifle. The above basically covers all needs from CQB to distance in daylight, low light, and no light. You can do a lot of things with less but being able to do everything equally well with less is impossible.
You cut the laser/NVG you’re giving up a lot in no light. You give up the optic for say a T1 you’re giving up PID and accuracy at distance. You can cut the can and a longer barrel for more difficulty in CQB between sound and length. Its all a game of weighted trade offs. Reality says it wont be cheap or light but it’ll be a hell of a gun.
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Out of this thread and docsherm’s, I’m wondering about picking up an ACOG 3x with my SQFS on top. For my use, I think I will hold off on that and stick with interchangeable LPVO and RDS on QD mounts, until I actually get NODs.
I wish people tried to justify their answers instead of saying “20 inch with magpul furniture and a light.” What am I gaining by an extra 8” of barrel besides some insignificant velocity?
Anyways, a single do all rifle without monetary concerns would essentially (to me) be a 12.5” upper with some type of wedgelock or similarly stable rail. Pick your poison of lower/stock/grip with a G$ trigger. Add a can, a MAWL, and a Modlite to the front. A modern LPVO best covers optical needs probably either a Kahles of a Razor in either 1-6/8/10 these days in a Badger mount and add a piggyback RMR if you want a passive sight under NVG.
A legit do it all rifle isn’t going to be your hyper-lite rifle. The above basically covers all needs from CQB to distance in daylight, low light, and no light. You can do a lot of things with less but being able to do everything equally well with less is impossible.
You cut the laser/NVG you’re giving up a lot in no light. You give up the optic for say a T1 you’re giving up PID and accuracy at distance. You can cut the can and a longer barrel for more difficulty in CQB between sound and length. Its all a game of weighted trade offs. Reality says it wont be cheap or light but it’ll be a hell of a gun.
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This pretty much sums up the consensus of the thread IMO
A MAWL would be nice if I had unlimited funds, but I'd be ok with a DBAL A3 to trim some cost. For me, as a civi, having the ability to go out to ~100 (under NODs) would be more than enough and I think the A3 would get me there while saving $1k+...of course my thoughts may change down the road on that.
Out of this thread and docsherm’s, I’m wondering about picking up an ACOG 3x with my SQFS on top. For my use, I think I will hold off on that and stick with interchangeable LPVO and RDS on QD mounts, until I actually get NODs.
The ACOG/RMR is interesting to me as well, but I feel that I would give up too much daytime capability (which probably accounts for 90%+ of any training or practical use for me) by losing the extra 5X that the NX8 offers. The main thing I can see "gaining" by going that route is a lighter gun...but like I've said, that hasn't really proven to be an issue for me in actual practice.
A legit do it all rifle isn’t going to be your hyper-lite rifle. The above basically covers all needs from CQB to distance in daylight, low light, and no light. You can do a lot of things with less but being able to do everything equally well with less is impossible....
Its all a game of weighted trade offs. Reality says it wont be cheap or light but it’ll be a hell of a gun.
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This is a great perspective, and I think that it can be taken one step further. Those weighted trade offs are all contextual. What works for shadow93 might not work as well for me, or might not at all for JediGuy's uses. That's one of the great things about the commercial market in that we have choice to squeeze performance out of equipment by augmenting it and adjusting it for what works best for us... not just what we are told is what we are required to use.
Not to derail this thread at all, but if you're intent on carrying a rifle with that much hanging off of it to get the capabilities that you want, there are a number of other considerations which are human hardware/software related: physical fitness is the foundational one, with comfortability/dexterity/efficiency in employing the tool (rifle) and payload (light/laser/optic/NODs) in concert with one another coming in at a close second. None of these should be ignored, especially when weight gets factored in.
This pretty much sums up the consensus of the thread IMO
I agree within the confines of: "realizing the full capability that the AR platform gives you...based on my [your] perceived capabilities/limitations of the platform." But Leftie might have driven to the heart of what I was trying to get at earlier...
This is a great perspective, and I think that it can be taken one step further. Those weighted trade offs are all contextual.
If we place this "consensus" GP rifle into realistic context/application does it still stack up under the circumstances?
What's our environment? Are we alone? Who are we shooting at? Who's shooting at us? What are their capabilities? Do we have access to support/resupply? ect
Hammer_Man
04-29-20, 13:48
I do have a nostalgic fondness for the MK 12 FF RAS.
The full floating RAS handguards are amongst my favorites. I love the carbine version I installed on my M4. Now if somebody could convince KAC to re-release the carbine length URX *wink wink*.
Back to the topic at hand. I don't understand the fixation on pencil profile barrels, and ultra light weight handguards, especially on shorter carbines. Those weapons make compromises in their ability to handle heat IMO. For example I've used Geissele MK4, and MK14 handguards on previous builds, and in each case I found they radiated a lot of heat into my hands after not too many rounds. I imagine all of the other thin walled handguards everybody makes these days will perform the same. My current M4 as mentioned above, has a carbine length FF RAS on it, and it doesn't seem to heat up as quickly, and makes for more comfortable days at the range. I think if you're going to build one AR for all purposes (to include space zombie apocalypse), then durability/performance under prolonged firing schedules should be taken into account. Of course this is all subject to individual needs, I like my ARs built like tanks.
I agree within the confines of: "realizing the full capability that the AR platform gives you...based on my [your] perceived capabilities/limitations of the platform." But Leftie might have driven to the heart of what I was trying to get at earlier...
If we place this "consensus" GP rifle into realistic context/application does it still stack up under the circumstances?
What's our environment? Are we alone? Who are we shooting at? Who's shooting at us? What are their capabilities? Do we have access to support/resupply? ect
A lot of those questions are also contextual and different from one person to the other.
Personally, I don't have the money or desire to have 18 different rifles for X, Y or Z...call me a minimalist or subscribing to "man with one gun" concept or whatever, but I like to train with and become very proficient with one gun (or two guns setup almost identically). Having rifles that don't get touched in the back of the safe does nothing for me, so I'm condensing down capability in the form of optic/barrel/accessory choices that optimize that design requirement.
The full floating RAS handguards are amongst my favorites. I love the carbine version I installed on my M4. Now if somebody could convince KAC to re-release the carbine length URX *wink wink*.
Back to the topic at hand. I don't understand the fixation on pencil profile barrels, and ultra light weight handguards, especially on shorter carbines. Those weapons make compromises in their ability to handle heat IMO. For example I've used Geissele MK4, and MK14 handguards on previous builds, and in each case I found they radiated a lot of heat into my hands after not too many rounds. I imagine all of the other thin walled handguards everybody makes these days will perform the same. My current M4 as mentioned above, has a carbine length FF RAS on it, and it doesn't seem to heat up as quickly, and makes for more comfortable days at the range. I think if you're going to build one AR for all purposes (to include space zombie apocalypse), then durability/performance under prolonged firing schedules should be taken into account. Of course this is all subject to individual needs, I like my ARs built like tanks.
ETA - I don't know what happened to my original response, but I basially said that as a fan of LW barrels and handguards, for this purpose, I agree.
A lot of those questions are also contextual and different from one person to the other.
I prefer the lighter barrels and handguards because they handle significantly better IMO. But that said, for this purpose I have moved away from it. The 12.5 barrel I just bought is heavier than a 14.5 BCM ELW barrel which is kind of a bummer for handling, but I'm hoping that two inches off the end will help compensate. Even if not though, the balance is better because its tapered and as you said, if this is to be the one gun, it needs to well with many rounds lots of times.
Personally, I don't have the money or desire to have 18 different rifles for X, Y or Z...call me a minimalist or subscribing to "man with one gun" concept or whatever, but I like to train with and become very proficient with one gun (or two guns setup almost identically). Having rifles that don't get touched in the back of the safe does nothing for me, so I'm condensing down capability in the form of optic/barrel/accessory choices that optimize that design requirement.
I actually wish I could do that because it kind of bothers me to have so many guns I don't shoot a lot. But with some of the places I may have to move, SBRs and pistols aren't allowed so on top of whatever length I'd prefer for a given role, I feel the need to duplicate that in a 16.1" OAL gun. If not for that, I'd probably have one 14.5 pinned, a 10.3, and a 12.5 for myself and call it good.
I think that the truly functional elements of the "Recce" concept are small mid-power max magnification (8x-12x) optic, enabler-focused handguard, suppressor, and decent ammunition.
Of those, the optic really makes the most difference in achieving the purpose of the rifle in daylight conditions.
As a community, we've been dancing around conformity with the concept for a while now, and with 8x and 10x LPVOs readily available, we're pretty much there.
Thanks Jack, as always good assessment and appreciate the info.
Regarding the bolded part...I hesitated to bring this up because for whatever reason it gets emotional for some guys, but ammunition is a pretty important piece to the capability we're looking for, especially out at the further ranges that we're asking of the platform.
So that brings us to ask: do we go for a bonded SP or an OTM? Do you take the tradeoff of less precision at distance with the BSP or do you take the less terminally effective (mostly through barriers) 77gr OTM?
ETA: And for some guys who need this disclaimer, any and all discussion about ammo and terminal effectiveness is done in the confines of "any and all legal purposes"...so don't come arguing legality of terminal performance at 400yds. It's just a hypothetical discussion.
A lot of those questions are also contextual and different from one person to the other.
Personally, I don't have the money or desire to have 18 different rifles for X, Y or Z...call me a minimalist or subscribing to "man with one gun" concept or whatever, but I like to train with and become very proficient with one gun (or two guns setup almost identically). Having rifles that don't get touched in the back of the safe does nothing for me, so I'm condensing down capability in the form of optic/barrel/accessory choices that optimize that design requirement.
This resonates with me, as I have for years attempted to avoid buying things "just to have them" only not to use them, and have settled generally on having fewer things - but those things are built to last and are typically "system" oriented.
If you're after a really quality "one rifle" solution, I would even view it as a modular system (ARs can be equated to adult Legos, so bear with me)...
If you're interested in one gun and think that 12.5" is the way to go, then find the things that you WILL NOT compromise on in any circumstance (that's entirely up to you), and base your 12.5" gun around that first. Once you have the things that you won't compromise on, look at your use case scenarios and attach relative probabilities related to context to them: If 1% of the time that you employ your rifle is going to be proned out staring at your target which is 500+ yards/meters/bananas (whatever) away at high noon while the sun is shining bright in the sky, then the priority of equipping your rifle to accomplish that job is very, very low...
If, on the other hand, your probability of employing your rifle 90% of the time is standing wide awake on your two feet when people would otherwise be getting their 40 winks, then you will likely have a substantially different rifle. If you are deliberately entering/moving through darkened streets where your average target might be no more than 75 yards/meters/bananas away, and into buildings without lighting where your average target distance is considerably less, and that's your most probable use case scenario, then build that rifle first.
The beauty of the AR platform having MLOK, 1913 Picatinny attachment standards, removable stocks (for rifles/NFA) and braces (for pistols) QD optic mounts which are capable of repeatable zero, and removable suppressors with reasonably consistent POA/POI shift is that you can accessorize the platform as you see fit, and tailor the rifle to squeeze a little more performance out of the gun for your given role.
That being said, I'm a big fan of keeping a rifle in the configuration that you're most likely to use it in, and train like hell with it. What that configuration is depends on your best judgement.
Alternatively, if money is no object, I think that you have found a good potential solution: set up multiple rifles identically outside of the optic/light/laser configurations, and then have an extra upper which brings a greater, more specialized (but less employed) capability to your option table.
I've seen people do it both ways, and in certain conditions, I've heard of multiple weapons being set up identically because they were going to be used, and then thrown into a sealed bucket and shipped off to get fully decontaminated and then returned to them later (yes, multiple thousands of dollars worth of rifle and gear in duplicate or more out of necessity). Whatever your use case is, build around it, and then accessorize it to enhance your needs - only you will know what you perform best with and what your needs are, but you won't know what works until you use/break/sell a bunch of stuff - it's a life-long adventure.
As for ammunition, there are some very good threads on M4C discussing ballistic data which are worth looking at.
Thanks Jack, as always good assessment and appreciate the info.
Regarding the bolded part...I hesitated to bring this up because for whatever reason it gets emotional for some guys, but ammunition is a pretty important piece to the capability we're looking for, especially out at the further ranges that we're asking of the platform.
So that brings us to ask: do we go for a bonded SP or an OTM? Do you take the tradeoff of less precision at distance with the BSP or do you take the less terminally effective (mostly through barriers) 77gr OTM?
I’m learning all this still, but I have tried to consolidate actual defensive ammunition on the IMI Mk262 clone. My decision in this way was meant to balance “the best” for given purpose(s) with “affordable enough to stockpile.” Additionally, for my purpose and area, I actually want to limit barrier penetration to some extent. The idea of paying over $1 per round of 5.56 doesn’t set well with me. My thought has been to be able to put 300 rounds of the IMI stuff on my person/in a bag as I head out the door.
For general stockpile, I have a few thousand rounds of XM193. That doesn’t seem to be anyone’s top choice, but may not be a poor choice in a do-all carbine, but probably not out to 400 from a 12.5” barrel.
I’m not an expert though, and I want to see what everyone thinks on this, too.
I’m learning all this still, but I have tried to consolidate actual defensive ammunition on the IMI Mk262 clone. My decision in this way was meant to balance “the best” for given purpose(s) with “affordable enough to stockpile.” Additionally, for my purpose and area, I actually want to limit barrier penetration to some extent. The idea of paying over $1 per round of 5.56 doesn’t set well with me. My thought has been to be able to put 300 rounds of the IMI stuff on my person/in a bag as I head out the door.
For general stockpile, I have a few thousand rounds of XM193. That doesn’t seem to be anyone’s top choice, but may not be a poor choice in a do-all carbine, but probably not out to 400 from a 12.5” barrel.
I’m not an expert though, and I want to see what everyone thinks on this, too.
I'm also trying to consolidate and went back and forth on how to do it. I was leaning towards what you did but instead chose to try and stock a few more mags worth of my HD load (75gr GDs) and then bridge the gap between that and plinking ammo with 75gr AE ball. That stuff shoots really well for a cheaper FMJ round and reportedly has similar intermediate ballistics to the GD in the same weight. I've wondered how much the loss of velocity will matter vs 262 at distance, but the pre-panic price difference was enough for me to figure I'd just roll with it.
Are your 12.5 guys doing the Triarc midlength gas system, or something else like the BCM or Hodge carbine length gas system? If it's a dedicated suppressor host, I would think middy would be most preferable.
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Are your 12.5 guys doing the Triarc midlength gas system, or something else like the BCM or Hodge carbine length gas system? If it's a dedicated suppressor host, I would think middy would be most preferable.
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I have both the mid and the carbine 12.5. I prefer the carbine gas system fkr both suppressed and unsuppresed
Are your 12.5 guys doing the Triarc midlength gas system, or something else like the BCM or Hodge carbine length gas system? If it's a dedicated suppressor host, I would think middy would be most preferable.
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Carbine upper from BCM.
I’d probably be looking at BRT’s EXtended Carbine length gas system (EXC) if I were looking to purchase another.
Are your 12.5 guys doing the Triarc midlength gas system, or something else like the BCM or Hodge carbine length gas system? If it's a dedicated suppressor host, I would think middy would be most preferable.
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I was very heavily leaning towards the Triarc 12.5 mid when FCD got more of the Hodge barrels in. That was an expensive barrel but I guess the tales of Gucci won out.
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Are your 12.5 guys doing the Triarc midlength gas system, or something else like the BCM or Hodge carbine length gas system? If it's a dedicated suppressor host, I would think middy would be most preferable.
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Carbine for anything under 14.5” IMO
Failure2Stop
04-29-20, 17:41
I think that there is way more at play than simply port position when it comes to a preference.
The answer really is: wherever it is that the manufacturer put it to do what the requirement says it has to do, as long as it does what it's supposed to do with the parts that compose the whole.
It's a little like asking how big of a glass to use for bourbon, or how much to tip a stripper.
This resonates with me, as I have for years attempted to avoid buying things "just to have them" only not to use them, and have settled generally on having fewer things - but those things are built to last and are typically "system" oriented.
If you're after a really quality "one rifle" solution, I would even view it as a modular system (ARs can be equated to adult Legos, so bear with me)...
If you're interested in one gun and think that 12.5" is the way to go, then find the things that you WILL NOT compromise on in any circumstance (that's entirely up to you), and base your 12.5" gun around that first. Once you have the things that you won't compromise on, look at your use case scenarios and attach relative probabilities related to context to them: If 1% of the time that you employ your rifle is going to be proned out staring at your target which is 500+ yards/meters/bananas (whatever) away at high noon while the sun is shining bright in the sky, then the priority of equipping your rifle to accomplish that job is very, very low...
If, on the other hand, your probability of employing your rifle 90% of the time is standing wide awake on your two feet when people would otherwise be getting their 40 winks, then you will likely have a substantially different rifle. If you are deliberately entering/moving through darkened streets where your average target might be no more than 75 yards/meters/bananas away, and into buildings without lighting where your average target distance is considerably less, and that's your most probable use case scenario, then build that rifle first.
The beauty of the AR platform having MLOK, 1913 Picatinny attachment standards, removable stocks (for rifles/NFA) and braces (for pistols) QD optic mounts which are capable of repeatable zero, and removable suppressors with reasonably consistent POA/POI shift is that you can accessorize the platform as you see fit, and tailor the rifle to squeeze a little more performance out of the gun for your given role.
That being said, I'm a big fan of keeping a rifle in the configuration that you're most likely to use it in, and train like hell with it. What that configuration is depends on your best judgement.
Alternatively, if money is no object, I think that you have found a good potential solution: set up multiple rifles identically outside of the optic/light/laser configurations, and then have an extra upper which brings a greater, more specialized (but less employed) capability to your option table.
I've seen people do it both ways, and in certain conditions, I've heard of multiple weapons being set up identically because they were going to be used, and then thrown into a sealed bucket and shipped off to get fully decontaminated and then returned to them later (yes, multiple thousands of dollars worth of rifle and gear in duplicate or more out of necessity). Whatever your use case is, build around it, and then accessorize it to enhance your needs - only you will know what you perform best with and what your needs are, but you won't know what works until you use/break/sell a bunch of stuff - it's a life-long adventure.
As for ammunition, there are some very good threads on M4C discussing ballistic data which are worth looking at.
Good post Leftie, not much I disagree with. Like you said, everyone should build their rig based on their perceived needs...and for all I know, I’ll die of old age only having used my “tools” as fun toys on range day killing paper or steel.
Regarding ammo, I’ve been around here long enough to be part of the debates and opinions of which ammo is best back when DocGKR was more than just a dentist. I have an informed opinion but it’s always interesting to see how others think about it. Case in point, I never considered a piggyback RMR until this thread.
For me, I currently feel comfortable consolidating to 77gr OTM since I can reload it for cheap(ish) and can actually train with it to some extent, plus it’s terminal effects are well known for unobstructed shots. This is simply playing the odds and banking on wanting more precision at distance vs needing to shoot through auto glass or similar. That said, like Wake, I’ll likely have a small amount of 62gr BSP on hand for a HD gun.
I think this topic is usually way overthought yet here I am asking the question lol
MountainRaven
04-29-20, 22:06
I just ordered a Hodge 12.5 with the 0.069 gas port for better ammo and parts compatibility.
(FIFY)
What's the "normal" gas port on the Hodge 12.5?
(FIFY)
What's the "normal" gas port on the Hodge 12.5?
Thanks. I think I saw .062. Its tight enough that you really need their nitrided BCG, whatever buffer, and high pressure ammo. This is apparently soft shooting but will work with more variations to the setup.
My earlier Hodge 12.5 barrel's gas port is around .063". My recently purchased 12.5" barrel's gas port is around .068"
I have both the mid and the carbine 12.5. I prefer the carbine gas system fkr both suppressed and unsuppresed
Can you please elaborate? Thanks.
FYI, I believe in the not to distant future, BRT will also be offering their 21.9 oz, 12.5" EXC barrel. Their BRT EXC length gas system is longer than the standard Carbine length, but shorter than the standard Mid length.
BRT barrels are also getting a noticeable velocity boost from their 6P rifling.
Can you please elaborate? Thanks.
The mid gas is a softer shooter. But the reason that i like the carbine gas better is that it will eat any ammo that i give it. ANY AMMO. I will take reliability over a little softer any day.
It's a little like asking how big of a glass to use for bourbon, or how much to tip a stripper.
Which is "it depends on a number of factors...." ;)
A lot of those questions are also contextual and different from one person to the other.
Personally, I don't have the money or desire to have 18 different rifles for X, Y or Z...call me a minimalist or subscribing to "man with one gun" concept or whatever, but I like to train with and become very proficient with one gun (or two guns setup almost identically). Having rifles that don't get touched in the back of the safe does nothing for me, so I'm condensing down capability in the form of optic/barrel/accessory choices that optimize that design requirement.
We agree on this point, which is why I questioned where the "design requirements" came from. I'm also a "man with one gun". For me, it's a tool that I occasionally play with. I'm not a serial builder or collector, the other 3 rifles in the safe belong to my wife/children.
Regarding the bolded part...I hesitated to bring this up because for whatever reason it gets emotional for some guys, but ammunition is a pretty important piece to the capability we're looking for, especially out at the further ranges that we're asking of the platform.
So that brings us to ask: do we go for a bonded SP or an OTM? Do you take the tradeoff of less precision at distance with the BSP or do you take the less terminally effective (mostly through barriers) 77gr OTM?
I don't know why anyone would be getting emotional about it. I own guns and train with them for the explicit purpose of killing people that need killing. I live the "Do no harm, do know harm" philosophy. It makes 100% sense to consider your gear as a system. I wish more people would catch on, we'd probably have less issues with folks doing things that dick up their guns...
Personally, I can't imagine a scenario CONUS where barrier performance wouldn't be more important, more of the time than taking 400M shots. But maybe you're out on a ranch in the hill country, the plains or God help you West Tx. This is where I'd probably just play copy cat with the FBI's duty load.
FYI, I believe in the not to distant future, BRT will also be offering their 21.9 oz, 12.5" EXC barrel. Their BRT EXC length gas system is longer than the standard Carbine length, but shorter than the standard Mid length.
BRT barrels are also getting a noticeable velocity boost from their 6P rifling.
Oh snap. That's pretty freaking cool news.
Definitely putting that on my radar!
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Good post Leftie, not much I disagree with. Like you said, everyone should build their rig based on their perceived needs...and for all I know, I’ll die of old age only having used my “tools” as fun toys on range day killing paper or steel.
Regarding ammo, I’ve been around here long enough to be part of the debates and opinions of which ammo is best back when DocGKR was more than just a dentist. I have an informed opinion but it’s always interesting to see how others think about it. Case in point, I never considered a piggyback RMR until this thread.
For me, I currently feel comfortable consolidating to 77gr OTM since I can reload it for cheap(ish) and can actually train with it to some extent, plus it’s terminal effects are well known for unobstructed shots. This is simply playing the odds and banking on wanting more precision at distance vs needing to shoot through auto glass or similar. That said, like Wake, I’ll likely have a small amount of 62gr BSP on hand for a HD gun.
I think this topic is usually way overthought yet here I am asking the question lol
Ironman8,
I agree with you, and regarding ammo, I didn't mean to come off as dismissive in my prior post (my bad-just wanted to mention that there are a ton of good threads on ammunition already here, but you already know that well :cool: ); it's definitely interesting to hear others' rationale behind their choices. I think that it's also really important generally to continue to learn... about everything! Plus, more thinking is better in this case, especially if it validates choices that we have already made.
noonesshowmonkey
05-03-20, 22:44
Ammo is a strange cat to skin. I highly doubt that anyone poked through their thoracic cavity by 5.56 hauling along at 2000+ feet per second is going to look down at their new orifice and think, "well, gee, that was only FMJ... I'll refuse to die, then."
77gr TMK and SMK have crazy good effects on meat. I can think of a particular pig that was dropped, DRT, at something like 450 yards by a forum user here. 5.56x45mm 77gr TMK.
Bonded soft points are totally savage on meat, too, tho. In many ways, it really comes down to what you consider the value of "barrier blind" to be. Do you expect to be blasting through windshields and car doors all the time? Are you doing vehicle interdiction / felony traffic stops? How about slinging through hollow core doors? Do you plan on serving some warrants today? Even then, I wouldn't volunteer to be on the receiving end of 77gr OTM as it blasts its way through a windshield/door/wall/whatever.
Feeding your carbine some of the better meat ammo like Barnes or Gold Dots or any of the 77gr match king rounds is going to make an absolute mess out of whatever you shoot. Mostly, I'd be more interested in the engagement ranges that I expected to be in (longer probably means 77gr), the prevalence of body armor among my errr patient population... and other such things.
This is starting to sound an awful lot like METT-TC.
Fancy that.
Oh, and I'd give honorable mention to 62gr Federal Fusion for any ballistic similarity to cheap M855ish clone ammo. You can feed it cheap range ammo, fancy pants bonded, or steel core and hopefully not deviate too far from your zero.
Eurodriver
05-04-20, 16:33
Ammo is a strange cat to skin. I highly doubt that anyone poked through their thoracic cavity by 5.56 hauling along at 2000+ feet per second is going to look down at their new orifice and think, "well, gee, that was only FMJ... I'll refuse to die, then."
77gr TMK and SMK have crazy good effects on meat. I can think of a particular pig that was dropped, DRT, at something like 450 yards by a forum user here. 5.56x45mm 77gr TMK.
It was 700 yards, noonesshowmonkey.
It was 700 yards, noonesshowmonkey.
I believe it was 620 yards, if I remember correctly.
nightchief
05-04-20, 16:55
Once I get a little better glass for my Centurion 12.5, I will regroup it for accuracy and also see how it does (and I do) at 500 and 600 yards. So far its worked well at 400 yards on C Zone steel gongs.
Eurodriver
05-04-20, 16:57
I believe it was 620 yards, if I remember correctly.
The steel was at 628 yards with a 12.5” but the pig was with a 20” at 700y.
The steel was at 628 yards with a 12.5” but the pig was with a 20” at 700y.
With 77gr OTM / MK262?
Eurodriver
05-04-20, 17:19
With 77gr OTM / MK262?
77gr TMK handloads
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?202876-I-read-on-the-internet-that-223-was-a-300-yard-round
77gr TMK handloads
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?202876-I-read-on-the-internet-that-223-was-a-300-yard-round
Very nice, and good shooting!
Perhaps somewhat relevant that I recently posted on another forum:
I wrote this back in January of '18: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29251-The-One
It was, at the time, the culmination of 15 years of use and perhaps mild obsession with finding "the perfect" "do-all" AR setup. Since then, I've come to believe that the "do-all" concept is flawed. I recently wrote in another thread about how the industry has somewhat jumped the shark in my opinion in pursuit of the "do-all" concept. EVERYTHING comes at a cost. There are still trade-offs (and probably always will be). Instead of trying to shoehorn things into roles, why don't we simplify and use the right tool for the job instead. There is middle ground too. We don't have to super-specialized.
An analogy:
I need to hammer a nail. A hammer is the ideal tool for this task. I could also use a large crescent wrench to hammer the nail, but that would be forcing a tool to do a job it was not designed, and is not best suited for. So, let's say we're going to use a hammer. Well, which hammer? Let's say I have a jeweler's hammer, a 16oz claw hammer, and a 2lb sledge hammer. Well, if I'm putting a small finish nail into drywall the jeweler's hammer would work. So would the 16 oz claw hammer, but I might have to be a little more careful. The 2lb sledge would NOT be the best tool for the job. Now, let's say the job has changed to a 12" spike that I'm using to stake out bean poles in my garden. Well, why not the jeweler's hammer? I mean, it is a hammer after all. It's not like I'm using a crescent wrench. Yeah, no. The 16 oz claw hammer works, though it may take a few more hits to get it there. The 2lb sledge might be ideal for this use.
In my opinion and referencing the above analogy, the 14.5" carbine with ACOG is like the 16oz claw hammer. It may not be the IDEAL tool for every job, but it will do a lot of them, and doesn't really suck (to the point of being unusable) at any of them. It has a very broad use spectrum. Compared to an SBR with a red dot, the ACOG will be a little more difficult to use at close range (sub-25yds let's say). However, past 25, the red dot isn't really any faster. Once you pass 50yds or so, the ACOG begins to eclipse the performance of the ACOG. Then we get into higher power optics. They are great if you're shooting from a fixed supported position (bench, bipod, tripod), but otherwise they're not very useful. Also, they will shine over the ACOG for precision probably beyond about 400yds. Me personally, a 400yd+ shot would be tough to even find, let alone need to take.
So, a 14.5" ACOG-topped carbine is very useful, but it's not "The ONE" like I thought it was. While it CAN work at closer distances, a red-dot sighted SBR works BETTER 100% of the time.
I left the ACOG in the summer of 2018 in favor of the Nightforce NX8. I thought it would be even more "The ONE." Once I got past the honeymoon phase, initial excitement over getting it, coping with the $$$ I'd just spent on an optic, and honestly faced the reality of how it performed, I began to hate it. I don't do a lot of "long range" shooting. 250yds is as far as I can regularly shoot. Thus, I don't spend a lot of time prone on bags/bipod or at a bench. My guns, even those used for "more precision" or "longer range" tend to be always fired off-hand or maybe with an improvised field rest (bracing off a tree or something). I found the NX8 to be un-usable in these field-improvised positions above 4x or so. However, being FFP the reticle was quite small and cluttered at 4X. On the other hand, the couple times I did put the NX8 up on 8X from a fixed position (for zeroing or attempting to shoot a group or two), I found the reticle to be too large/coarse on 8X to make use of the magnification. I'd turn it down to 6X just to have a precise-enough aiming device. Well in that case, what good did the 8X on top do me?
I sold the NX8 in May of 2019 and basically went "gun-less" at that time. I sold everything that wasn't an heirloom or my single Glock 19. It was a personal/spiritual journey, more about that here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36774-Farewell-until%85&p=1026272&viewfull=1#post1026272
Coming back into things from scratch gave me a new perspective. I had a clearer picture of what I "needed" a gun for and was able to choose components from a more honest place instead of chasing new hotness or outlandish "possibilities."
When our country's response to COVID first began to heat up and I perceived what the economic and socioeconomic impacts could be, I no longer felt good with just a Glock 19. My choices were based on the best configuration to defend myself and my family in and around our home from potential looters, rioters, who knows what. My experience dictated that a 10.3" suppressed SBR with an Aimpoint T1 was something I was 100% good with as a no-compromise solution to that problem whether we sheltered in our home or had to hit the road.
Then, one evening we took a drive to drop off something at a friend's house further north from the foothills into the more rural mountains. As we made that drive and I looked at the surrounding landscape, I determined that if I had to be out there, I was no longer quite as comfortable with just the SBR + T1. Things were much more open. You could see much farther. I also began to think about this fall's hunting season and preparing to hunt (I put 2-3 deer in our freezer every year and heavily supplements feeding our family of 5. We buy virtually no ground beef anymore). I know from experience that magnification is a valuable (almost required) tool there. In fact, having hunting and taken deer with everything from a bow and arrow to a scoped (3.5-10) .30-06 and .308, I was honest with myself and my favorite rifle to hunt with was my 14.5" AR with suppressor and ACOG. Furthermore, that is a setup I would use more than once or twice a year and made more sense than re-scoping an heirloom bolt gun that would sit in the safe all year save one or two outings for deer. So, I build the upper below consisting of the following:
-BCM Blem upper
-Colt SOCOM 14.5" Barrel
-AAC 51T Flashhider
-AAC SDN-6 Suppressor
-Trijicon TA11E ACOG
When I had ACOG's before, they were the TA11H model with horseshoe reticle. Having the chevron now I much prefer it. I am able to be more precise with it (tip of the chevron vs dot in the horseshoe) when required. It is no slower than the horseshoe up close though. Also, it blooms less than the horseshoe. So, whereas I thought the NX8 would solve my issues with the ACOG, it turns out that it did not. One of the issues (close-range speed) is best solved by just using a different gun/upper: 10.3 with Aimpoint. The other issues (blooming I think was honestly the only one) was solved by going to a chevron reticle. I'm happy to have tried the NX8. I learned from it. What I learned landed me solidly back in the TA11 ACOG camp. I swear, the glass on these things is just amazing. And this is a side note that I think bears some discussion/consideration: glass quality trumps magnification all day. There is just something about the ACOG glass and FOV on the TA11 that makes it look like it magnifies more than it really does. Just speaking about raw precision, I can shoot better groups at 100yds with a 3.5X TA11 than I can with a Nightforce NX8 or a Leupold 3.5-10/TMR. That's counter-intuitive, but it's true. I've proven it several times.
If I need an inside or around the vehicle gun, the 10.3" + Aimpoint is the winner. For hunting, or being in more open rural spaces, I'll take the 14.5" with TA11. Both guns supplied with 62gr Gold Dot. I like these and this is probably where I'll stay forever now. Get off my lawn (and I'm not even 40 yet).
https://i.imgur.com/gop965Vl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6DykdKcl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3Z7etjyl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oc7RMcRl.png
https://i.imgur.com/ZeEyERKl.jpg
Ash556 well put. While I don’t personally like ACOGs, at all, I rather like you’re approach. I’ve come to realize it’s easier to just have one lower and 2 or 3 uppers for it to fill the desired roles. Also, I realized that if you don’t have to go searching through your house and can just hole up in the event of a break-in, even a 16” gun is fine as you can just point it at the doorway.
vicious_cb
05-07-20, 18:37
Ash556 well put. While I don’t personally like ACOGs, at all, I rather like you’re approach. I’ve come to realize it’s easier to just have one lower and 2 or 3 uppers for it to fill the desired roles. Also, I realized that if you don’t have to go searching through your house and can just hole up in the event of a break-in, even a 16” gun is fine as you can just point it at the doorway.
Defeats the entire purpose of this thread. Honestly f°ck it, we should just have an AR for every part of the house. Everyone should have a bedroom gun, shitter gun,kitchen gun,backyard gun ect.
The *One* Gun Solution (GP Carbine) - Reality?
While they are not my cup of tea, a bull pup style carbine with a full length top rail and a 12.5-14.5” inch suppressed barrel has the compactness for CQB and also enough bullet velocity for 0-400 yds. As for the optic, while a 4X top magnification will work at 400 yds, I would prefer a 6X for the top end magnification. I don’t use NV so I have no input on that.
Vicious - or you could try reading the second paragraph of the original post and exercising some reading comprehension.
Also, I realized that if you don’t have to go searching through your house and can just hole up in the event of a break-in, even a 16” gun is fine as you can just point it at the doorway.
A 16” gun is actually fine for working through most residences in America.
A 16” gun is actually fine for working through most residences in America.
But throw on a can and now your 16" is a 22".
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But throw on a can and now your 16" is a 22".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You’re not wrong. In that context I like SBRs. I was just pointing out that 16” guns aren’t Garands. Its a crusade I’ve been on lately. I’ve been known to clear structures both stateside and overseas with 14.5”+6.5” and 16”+ 5.8”.
You’re not wrong. In that context I like SBRs. I was just pointing out that 16” guns aren’t Garands. Its a crusade I’ve been on lately. I’ve been known to clear structures both stateside and overseas with 14.5”+6.5” and 16”+ 5.8”.
I see what you are saying 1168 and this is not directed at you..... but I also drove a nail in with a wrench the other day, it worked. But it was not the best way to do it. Using a hammer would have been much better. Same thing with rifles.
I used a 14.5 barrel for years....... and a 20" barrel for years before that. We did CQB with the A2.... hell, the USMC STILL DOES IT and there were Many rooms that were cleared in Europe and the Pacific with a Garand....... it is the old "could I vs Should I" algorithm.
If people were building a car and needed a Chevy transmission they would get one. In the Gun world people will try to get a Honda transmission to fit because that is what they have and always have used it. In the car world, that would be a sign of pure craziness.
I think that the biggest difference is that most people do this as a hobby only, so they are willing to make those compromises. There are those that do this for a living and 90% of them are given what the GOV says to use.... and they HAVE to make it work. Then they get it in their head that "I made it work before and when I was In XYZ that is the way WE did it......."
So it is kind of a circular logic. The actual question is what works the absolute best? Then that is the correct answer.
With the above, it seems to me that if you can get a BRT 12.5" with 6P rifling that gets the same or better velocity as an issued 14.5 and we consider that the baseline, and we get a little more room for a can, that seems like the near ideal compromise.
Pretty sure I'm going to buy one myself when they become available.
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vicious_cb
05-08-20, 13:51
A 16” gun is actually fine for working through most residences in America.
The premise of this thread is that the gun needs to work everywhere including vehicles suppressed and unsuppressed.
The mid gas is a softer shooter. But the reason that i like the carbine gas better is that it will eat any ammo that i give it. ANY AMMO. I will take reliability over a little softer any day.
I may have missed it, but what ammo do you usually run?
Suppressed?
With the above, it seems to me that if you can get a BRT 12.5" with 6P rifling that gets the same or better velocity as an issued 14.5 and we consider that the baseline, and we get a little more room for a can, that seems like the near ideal compromise.
Pretty sure I'm going to buy one myself when they become available.
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True, but I think most people still prefer chrome lined barrels.
I may have missed it, but what ammo do you usually run?
Suppressed?
Black Hills MK262 or LC 62gr M855
True, but I think most people still prefer chrome lined barrels.
I can't agree with you more. And I would also add that I prefer a CHF barrel also.
Truthfully, when I started the thread, I was more interested in how to make one gun work under all the parameters I listed, but I did leave it fairly open to discuss if that wasn’t possible, then maybe you do need two uppers.
I’m glad the thread went the way it did because not only did I learn some new things, after really thinking about it, answering “two uppers” is somewhat the easy way out and ultimately not the best option even if they each were optimized for different ends of the spectrum. Main reason being, how do you know which upper you’ll need in any given situation? The gun in your hands is much better than the safe full of optimized setups back at home.
True, but I think most people still prefer chrome lined barrels.
For a hard use gun, absolutely
Defeats the entire purpose of this thread. Honestly f°ck it, we should just have an AR for every part of the house. Everyone should have a bedroom gun, shitter gun,kitchen gun,backyard gun ect.
I’ll stick with my driveway gun ;)
Truthfully, when I started the thread, I was more interested in how to make one gun work under all the parameters I listed, but I did leave it fairly open to discuss if that wasn’t possible, then maybe you do need two uppers.
I’m glad the thread went the way it did because not only did I learn some new things, after really thinking about it, answering “two uppers” is somewhat the easy way out and ultimately not the best option even if they each were optimized for different ends of the spectrum. Main reason being, how do you know which upper you’ll need in any given situation? The gun in your hands is much better than the safe full of optimized setups back at home.
I’m really glad you started this conversation too! There is a lot of knowledge from other sections of this forum condensed in this one thread. I had purchased my LVPO prior to reading these opinions but it definitely hardened my resolve that the weight was a worthy trade off for the versatility.
if you don’t have to go searching through your house and can just hole up in the event of a break-in, even a 16” gun is fine as you can just point it at the doorway.
A 16” gun is actually fine for working through most residences in America.
I quoted the above because I think my point is lost without the context of what I was replying to.
The premise of this thread is that the gun needs to work everywhere including vehicles suppressed and unsuppressed.
Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are you implying that it won’t work? Or simply that it is sub-optimal as DocSherm pointed out? That’s all I was getting at. For what its worth, I think a 16” gun is perfectly suitable for someone that doesn’t own a can. Although, I might choose my 14” or 14.5” gun for a do-all in that scenario.
Little late to the party but recently my preferred setup is as follow:
12.5" barrel
Offset 1.93-height RDS as primary optic
Matching-height 1.93 LPVO as secondary optic
Some sort of dual-output (visible + IR) aiming device
Medium-output white light with sufficient flood
Logic:
A good 12.5" barrels retains most of the velocity from a 14.5, and I felt it is the minimum to get accuracy out to ~400 yards. It also isn't as picky on suppressors.
For optic, I have been shooting primarily with an offset RDS due to internal product development, but the more I do it the more I realized I can acquire targets just as fast (if not faster) with an offset RDS, than traditional 12 o'clock RDS. Ergonomically I am far more comfortable holding the rifle at a slight angle, especially from low-ready. T1 or Acro style close-emitter RDS are compact and reliable, while 1.93 height allows NVG.
The LPVO, although is mounted at 12 o'clock, will be used as secondary. It will stay at ~3-4x to handle shots beyond CQB range. It also allows me to zoom out and PID distanced target, or take a precision shot when time is available. The LVPO is intended to never go to 1x unless the RDS fails (dead battery etc), but can act as make-shift CQB optic if needed. Since it will be used as secondary, I can use cheaper models if budget is tight. But always keep it lightweight.
Given the right ammo I will zero both optics at ~30 yards (which will also give me a roughly 200-yard zero). This provide a maximum +/- 3 inch vertical spread from point-blank to ~250 yards. Anywhere within this range I can hit vital by simply aiming center mass, without having to do any math, using either optic. This might be somewhat unorthodox but it works, while providing consistency between both optics. (A proficient shooter should be able to hit man-sized target past 200 yards with a RDS, very quickly.) Past 250 yard I would use the LVPO and compensate using the reticle. Ballistic chat says I would be ~7 MOA at 400 yards, well within most reticle's subtension range.
Aiming laser for obvious reasons. White light is geared towards CQB use, as super-high-candela "spot lights" are useless in real world situations if I have NVG. Long battery life, sufficient light for close-range threat identification, and wide-flood to enhance peripheral vision. ~300-500 lumen with a well-designed reflector (e.g. Surefire M300) is plenty. I also prefer the reliability for CR123A over rechargeable, especially for this type of setup. It let me keep the light compact. If I have to engage distanced target in low-light, I would use NVG exclusively to maintain concealment advantage anyway.
One last word about optic - I came from the RDS+magnifier camp and frankly I will never go back. After experiencing how fast I can nail multiple 50 yards + 300 yards targets, back-to-back-to-back, using this setup, the delay in deploying / stowing the magnifier, or to zoom LPVO out to 1x, is no longer acceptable. This includes the Elcan Spectra DR that I've owned since they first launched it. I will still take the Elcan if the world is ending tomorrow and I have to bug out... but for day-to-day defensive weapon against "intelligent" threats (aka things that will shoot back at you), having dual optic is a significant advantage. For any computer nerds out there, it's like discovering dual-monitor setup... once you've experienced it, you will never go back to "Alt-Tab" and switch between applications within a single monitor.
VT
turnburglar
05-11-20, 02:14
Good post Valhalla,
Im really looking forward to trying your offset RDS mount for the Aero mounts. Even though I don't mind using the zoom level between targets/stages I see your point about a dedicated offset RDS for 0-100 yard shots and then leaving my LPVO on max (4x).
To everyone running cans on their GP carbine; do you feel the can actually enhances your shooting experience? I only ask because I did the 24/7 game deployed, but I wasn't in a cool unit with cans. Just Aim points, peq15's and PVS14's. As long as you choose a reasonable muzzle device the flash is very modest, and I figure I am wearing ear pro no matter what. Also I like my guns short, and not burning me after a few mags. I guess I have been getting along so long without a can, it is making me look at the trouble of getting one and the increased weight/maintenance makes me question if its even right for me at all.
I do want to acquire my own NVG's and IR though, that is super handy kit. Just don't have the money yet.
Valhalla,
With the 1.93 offset MRDS, are you able to get your 14 behind it to aim passively? Seems the consensus in the thread is that it needs to be piggyback, so wondering if that’s a viable option...
Valhalla,
With the 1.93 offset MRDS, are you able to get your 14 behind it to aim passively? Seems the consensus in the thread is that it needs to be piggyback, so wondering if that’s a viable option...
I would also like to know about this, as there seems to be a little bit of confusion, of what might or might not work with NV and MRDS’s in offset mounts. What is the main thing that makes it a no go?
Valhalla, from what you describe, why not an ACOG instead of an LPVO? Battery or dual illuminated, smaller footprint, more rugged, lighter than most any LPVO with mount.
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Little late to the party but recently my preferred setup is as follow:
12.5" barrel
Offset 1.93-height RDS as primary optic
Matching-height 1.93 LPVO as secondary optic
For optic, I have been shooting primarily with an offset RDS due to internal product development, but the more I do it the more I realized I can acquire targets just as fast (if not faster) with an offset RDS, than traditional 12 o'clock RDS. Ergonomically I am far more comfortable holding the rifle at a slight angle, especially from low-ready. T1 or Acro style close-emitter RDS are compact and reliable, while 1.93 height allows NVG.
The LPVO, although is mounted at 12 o'clock, will be used as secondary. It will stay at ~3-4x to handle shots beyond CQB range. It also allows me to zoom out and PID distanced target, or take a precision shot when time is available. The LVPO is intended to never go to 1x unless the RDS fails (dead battery etc), but can act as make-shift CQB optic if needed. Since it will be used as secondary, I can use cheaper models if budget is tight. But always keep it lightweight.
VT
I am curious why you would have a primary optic as the off-set. If you intended to use your Reflex sight as the primary then why not have it at the 12 o'clock? Can you post a picture of this set up? I am very curious to see how you set this up.
It sounds like he’s got the LPV at 12:00 and the offset MRDS, except he’s switching which one he calls the primary. I’ve got too many reps burned in shouldering the rifle straight vs canted for that to be a realistic use as a primary. I agree too, why go with the extra weight of the LPV/Mount if you’re not going to use the LPV as such. Or just go with a higher power top end.
It sounds like he’s got the LPV at 12:00 and the offset MRDS, except he’s switching which one he calls the primary. I’ve got too many reps burned in shouldering the rifle straight vs canted for that to be a realistic use as a primary. I agree too, why go with the extra weight of the LPV/Mount if you’re not going to use the LPV as such. Or just go with a higher power top end.
Indeed. I was chatting with a buddy about a similar topic and discussed using a 2-10 or 3-12 with offset or piggyback RDS. Especially since we are getting older and more mag is more better :)
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Can you post a picture of this set up?
Sure, here is my current setup:
https://www.valhallatactical.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/74c1057f7991b4edb2bc7bdaa94de933/2/0/2020-3-2_rukh_smoke.jpg
It's not a new idea, many have run offset RDS. But most would never consider flipping the roles between the offset and the magnified, and thus most offset mounts were designed, naturally, as a "back-up" solution... tucking away the offset RDS and making it extremely hard to use.
I am curious why you would have a primary optic as the off-set. If you intended to use your Reflex sight as the primary then why not have it at the 12 o'clock?
There are two reasons for it. First, target acquisition with a offset red dot is fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock. Try this - hold up your fist in front of your chest like you are about ready to punch someone. Now look at your fist. If you were holding a stick, would that stick be pointing straight up? No... because your elbow/wrist doesn't naturally bend that way. Bringing your gun up from low-ready is the same way; traditionally you have to lift the gun AND rotate it so your primary optic, at 12 o'clock, lines up with your eye. With offset red dot, you only have to bring the gun up without rotating it much (if at all), and the red dot (provided it's setup at the right height) would line up naturally against your eye.
The second reason, is that I would prefer a wide-range of magnification outside of the reflex sight, and nobody makes a "variable" flip-to-side magnifier. So for me to have both, I have to rely on LPVO and they don't make offset mounts for LPVO... :D
VT
except he’s switching which one he calls the primary
Yes that is exactly right. The specific setup is not new, people have done it for ages. It's really more of a mindset change; that instead of bolting an expensive RDS to the side and rarely use it, put your money to work... especially when it works surprisingly well. By calling the offset my "primary" I am simply making a point that I will typically go to the offset RDS first, before I would engage the LPV.
As to rep, it's much easier to re-teach your muscle to go back to a more "natural" position. Plus you are not "wasting" the training you've already done, as you still need to hold the gun in a traditional manner when using the LPV. So think of it as learning a new skill. I am way past my 40s and if I can figure it out, you all could... lol
VT
Indeed. I was chatting with a buddy about a similar topic and discussed using a 2-10 or 3-12 with offset or piggyback RDS. Especially since we are getting older and more mag is more better :)
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Glad we think alike!! I've contemplated doing that too, as more magification (and more "range" I can dial around the magnification) would be preferred, provided the weight penalty is not excessive. Right now I am sticking with LPV mainly because I want the ability to have a backup CQB optic. If I banged the offset RDS so hard to crack the glass, I can still zoom the LPVO out to 1x and accurately engage close-range targets. Also, if money is no object, that shinny new 1-10 Razor is looking mighty attractive... Need to go look at one and see how big the eye-box is at 10x, but that will give me a lot of versatility when paired with an RDS.
VT
RobertTheTexan
05-12-20, 09:54
Little late to the party but recently my preferred setup is as follow:
12.5" barrel
Offset 1.93-height RDS as primary optic
Matching-height 1.93 LPVO as secondary optic
Some sort of dual-output (visible + IR) aiming device
Medium-output white light with sufficient flood
Logic:
A good 12.5" barrels retains most of the velocity from a 14.5, and I felt it is the minimum to get accuracy out to ~400 yards. It also isn't as picky on suppressors.
For optic, I have been shooting primarily with an offset RDS due to internal product development, but the more I do it the more I realized I can acquire targets just as fast (if not faster) with an offset RDS, than traditional 12 o'clock RDS. Ergonomically I am far more comfortable holding the rifle at a slight angle, especially from low-ready. T1 or Acro style close-emitter RDS are compact and reliable, while 1.93 height allows NVG.
The LPVO, although is mounted at 12 o'clock, will be used as secondary. It will stay at ~3-4x to handle shots beyond CQB range. It also allows me to zoom out and PID distanced target, or take a precision shot when time is available. The LVPO is intended to never go to 1x unless the RDS fails (dead battery etc), but can act as make-shift CQB optic if needed. Since it will be used as secondary, I can use cheaper models if budget is tight. But always keep it lightweight.
Given the right ammo I will zero both optics at ~30 yards (which will also give me a roughly 200-yard zero). This provide a maximum +/- 3 inch vertical spread from point-blank to ~250 yards. Anywhere within this range I can hit vital by simply aiming center mass, without having to do any math, using either optic. This might be somewhat unorthodox but it works, while providing consistency between both optics. (A proficient shooter should be able to hit man-sized target past 200 yards with a RDS, very quickly.) Past 250 yard I would use the LVPO and compensate using the reticle. Ballistic chat says I would be ~7 MOA at 400 yards, well within most reticle's subtension range.
Aiming laser for obvious reasons. White light is geared towards CQB use, as super-high-candela "spot lights" are useless in real world situations if I have NVG. Long battery life, sufficient light for close-range threat identification, and wide-flood to enhance peripheral vision. ~300-500 lumen with a well-designed reflector (e.g. Surefire M300) is plenty. I also prefer the reliability for CR123A over rechargeable, especially for this type of setup. It let me keep the light compact. If I have to engage distanced target in low-light, I would use NVG exclusively to maintain concealment advantage anyway.
One last word about optic - I came from the RDS+magnifier camp and frankly I will never go back. After experiencing how fast I can nail multiple 50 yards + 300 yards targets, back-to-back-to-back, using this setup, the delay in deploying / stowing the magnifier, or to zoom LPVO out to 1x, is no longer acceptable. This includes the Elcan Spectra DR that I've owned since they first launched it. I will still take the Elcan if the world is ending tomorrow and I have to bug out... but for day-to-day defensive weapon against "intelligent" threats (aka things that will shoot back at you), having dual optic is a significant advantage. For any computer nerds out there, it's like discovering dual-monitor setup... once you've experienced it, you will never go back to "Alt-Tab" and switch between applications within a single monitor.
VT
What was the deficiency with the RDS mounted at 12 o'clock above the optic that led do your mount? I didn't think that setup was necessarily broken.
Valhalla,
Not sure if you saw my question below...curious on your experience under nods with the offset RDS:
Valhalla,
With the 1.93 offset MRDS, are you able to get your 14 behind it to aim passively? Seems the consensus in the thread is that it needs to be piggyback, so wondering if that’s a viable option...
I run my NX8 on a 1.93 mount and would prefer to have an offset MRDS vs piggyback due to the height I’m starting at as a baseline. The MRDS would serve as a backup and as a passive aiming option under nods. I think it’s more realistic to use it offset as a backup, but if it’s wholly unusable with NODs in the offset position, then it’s a no-go from the start.
I'll add one anecdote.
Before all this crap started, I used to shoot a good bit of 3 gun and tactical matches.
I did find that when required to shoot under barricades using an angled sight worked great since I was able to get low enough to use the sight at the correct angle without my magazine getting in the way. It felt better than just shooting gangster style.
Just my personal anecdote, which isn't very valuable.
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What was the deficiency with the RDS mounted at 12 o'clock above the optic that led do your mount? I didn't think that setup was necessarily broken.
Good question! The main issue, at least for me, is breaking cheek weld. Even when shooting fast I want to retain some accuracy. Secondly, switching between them takes time. In a tactical environment I would want that transition to be quicker, and the only way is to ensure the height-over-bore between both optics are identical. Here is an example:
https://youtu.be/Volra-98994
Notice how the shooter's head doesn't move at all. You can't do that with any piggy-back RDS that is designed as "backup", for example top-mounted (12 o-clock) or corner-mounted (2 o'clock). The change between the optic's distance to your bore axis, especially with AR platform where your stock is inline with the bore, requires you to learn two different shooting position. Consolidating them into one can make anyone a better shooter.
Currently I believe the Badger C1 is the only mount that really understand this principle. They even went to great length to ensure the optic mount plates are compensating the different in dot-height (e.g. the RMR plate is thicker than DPP plate), so that the height-over-bore is consistent with the magnified optic. However, for the life of me I can't figure out why they left the mount points at the same height for their 1.93 mount... I would've raised the accessory mount point higher so that an offset RDS matches the 1.93 height. Maybe someone can chime in?
VT
Valhalla,
Not sure if you saw my question below...curious on your experience under nods with the offset RDS:
I run my NX8 on a 1.93 mount and would prefer to have an offset MRDS vs piggyback due to the height I’m starting at as a baseline. The MRDS would serve as a backup and as a passive aiming option under nods. I think it’s more realistic to use it offset as a backup, but if it’s wholly unusable with NODs in the offset position, then it’s a no-go from the start.
Ah yes I did miss that. To be honest I haven't messed with that enough to really make a qualified statement; most of my time (and it's limited) shooting under NODs was with the DBAL. However, in theory if you tilt the offset mount far enough from the main optic, using it passively with NVD shouldn't be an issue. In the picture I posed, the offset is at roughly 30 degree angle. Bringing it to 45 degree, in conjunction with it's 1.93 height, would give it significantly more space to make aiming under NODs achievable.
VT
It's not a new idea, many have run offset RDS. But most would never consider flipping the roles between the offset and the magnified, and thus most offset mounts were designed, naturally, as a "back-up" solution... tucking away the offset RDS and making it extremely hard to use.
The idea of using an offset red dot as a primary optic for close range shooting, with an LPVO (or ACOG) at 12:00 for mid to long range targets, isn't really new either.
Multigun competition shooters have been doing this in open/unlimited division for quite a while.
Jerry M is one example. He's been doing it since at least 2008 (the first time I remember seeing him with an offset dot at a match), probably longer.
A YouTube vid from back in 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
That dot isn't being used as a "backup" optic...
But I think this thread is supposed to be about a rifle that's useful with NVG as well as in daylight. If your 1.93 offset mount will work with NODs, I suppose that's more inline with the spirit of the thread than a dot at lower 1/3 or absolute cowitness height.
How well does the offset RDS work when shooting offhand? Or are you then using the LVPO as the primary?
I have a Leupold VX-R 3-9x40 that is quite light that I've been thinking of trying out in combination with the new Holosun 509t that's coming out for a very lightweight setup that has almost all the same functionality of my Razor 1-10x, minus good wind holds, but with a clearer bigger eyebox at the top end of the magnification. Just have never tried an offset RDS and can't wrap my head around how it's used shooting offhand.
daddyusmaximus
05-12-20, 13:28
I don't really have a "one gun solution' AR, but I do have an AR that's the "one gun" I'll be reaching for if things go bad. It's a 10.3" Daniel Defense pistol with a red dot, so it's more of a defensive weapon. In my area, and for my needs, it fits the bill. I don't anticipate the need to be engaging at 400 yds. I do have a 3x magnifier for it, and I suppose I could put on a LPVO. I have a PA 1-8 I like a great deal due to the ACSS reticle, but I always seem to go back to the red dot. (Comp M4s) It's just so simple, and quick, and I really don't need anything more to defend myself with around here. As a matter of fact, I recently had it up for sale to raise money to get my first suppressor. I had put the Primary Arms 1-8 on the pistol, but after training with it a couple days, I just confirmed that I liked the Aimpoint better on my defensive gun. I'll get my suppressor some other way...
A lot of people like a longer barrel, but the shortness of the 10.3" in combination with the folding stock means it travels well in a small indiscreet bag, or even in my regular bag with my clothes. The main thing about any defensive weapon, is having it with you when you need it. I like the idea of the mini-recce, and I think it's probably on my to do list now, but having my 10.3" with me... is a damn sight better than a pinned 14.5" or 16" that's sitting at home.
The idea of using an offset red dot as a primary optic for close range shooting, with an LPVO (or ACOG) at 12:00 for mid to long range targets, isn't really new either.
Multigun competition shooters have been doing this in open/unlimited division for quite a while.
Jerry M is one example. He's been doing it since at least 2008 (the first time I remember seeing him with an offset dot at a match), probably longer.
A YouTube vid from back in 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE
That dot isn't being used as a "backup" optic...
But I think this thread is supposed to be about a rifle that's useful with NVG as well as in daylight. If your 1.93 offset mount will work with NODs, I suppose that's more inline with the spirit of the thread than a dot at lower 1/3 or absolute cowitness height.
Well good, thanks for the video and now I know we are not the only crazy SOB here!! Seriously though, I know this is not a new and we never claimed we "invented" this. It's just that most people don't think that way. Take this thread as an example, 20-some-pages had been posted, and how many time someone mentioned "offset as primary"?
As to NVGs, yes 1.93 height is much more NVG friendly, and once you get used to that cheek weld, your posture for both day-and-night shooting would remain largely the same. Even if the LPVO did get in the way, you'd just have to push the gun slightly forward; no difference from what you have to do with a piggy-backed dot over ACOG, except the ACOG's terrible eye-relieve will require you to move your gun forward a LOT more. Nonetheless, I find the consistency in cheek weld (by simply rotating the gun) valuable for maintaining speed and accuracy, as compared to using traditional piggy-backed MRDS. It's all about maintaining sight height over bore. :cool:
VT
I had a long talk with John Noveske one time, and somewhere in it he commented that if he could only have one AR15, he would make sure it was a 12.5” barrel, because it was just about the perfect all around length when you figured out velocity and any reliability trade offs.
I've seen you post this in the past and it was one of the deciding factors for me building a 12.5" SBR. I went with a BCM barrel for a few different reason, none of which I'll discuss here since it's not relevant to this thread.
Whats the hight above rail in the center of that RMR on top of the TA11?
I replied with the first pic earlier in this thread. From having tried piles of optics over the years I honestly believed that a "one gun" solution was not a reality. The one thing I'd never tried before and really wanted to was the piggyback RMR on the ACOG. The TA11 specifically because it is the most forgiving ACOG. Huge FOV compared to the TA33, but massive eye relief compared to the TA31. Sure it's bigger and heavier than those models, but at 14oz it's still lighter than pretty much all LPVO's, especially once you factor in the mount. The ACOG glass is marvelous and those that have shot a lot know that glass quality trumps magnification. If you look back a few pages you'll see a 10-shot .88 MOA group I fired at 100yds with Speer Gold Dot from a COLT 14.5" barrel using a TA11 ACOG. The point is, that if you have the right reticle and good glass, 3.5X magnification can be better than 6X or 8X with worse glass and reticle. Adding the RMR on top of the ACOG is NOT the chin-weld everyone said it would be. I find it to be far faster to move my head slightly up/down to switch between the optics and it's faster than rolling the gun...at least for me. I've had offset dot and irons setups in the past and they were nowhere near as fast and intuitive as the piggyback RMR.
Like @Valhalla I treat the RMR as the primary sight and then drop into the ACOG when the shot calls for it (Precision, distance, whatever).
Mark 10:8 “...and the two shall become one.”
https://i.imgur.com/6DykdKcl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/teGAkatl.jpg
Have you tried rolling the RMR to your left eye?
This makes me want to go try a Leupold D-EVO.
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