Take me from zero to hero

[calicojack]

Let's say I have between $500-700 to drop on some glass. Let's also say I havent shot distances more than 150-200 yards with anything more than a bottom of the barrel Burris hunting scope on a remington 770. This new optic will be going on a custom 18" spr build that includes a timney 2 stage drop in trigger set and a rainer arms match grade barrel.

What would you recommend that would take me from relearning all the basic fundamentals to hitting 800m shots without having to upgrade as I go. I want the glass to out shoot me.

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[just a scout]

Look hard at the SWFA brand.


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[vicious_cb]

What would you recommend that would take me from relearning all the basic fundamentals to hitting 800m shots without having to upgrade as I go.
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Practice

/thread

[calicojack]

Practice

/threadNot helpful.

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[SomeOtherGuy]

Let's say I have between $500-700 to drop on some glass. Let's also say I havent shot distances more than 150-200 yards with anything more than a bottom of the barrel Burris hunting scope on a remington 770. This new optic will be going on a custom 18" spr build that includes a timney 2 stage drop in trigger set and a rainer arms match grade barrel.

What would you recommend that would take me from relearning all the basic fundamentals to hitting 800m shots without having to upgrade as I go. I want the glass to out shoot me.

To be certain you would never grow past the glass you would need to start with something like a Nightforce (SHV, NXS or NX8), Vortex Razor, Leupold Mark5 or Mark6, etc., all of which are well past your desired price range.

You will also need truly match grade ammo like Federal Gold Medal once you start shooting decently, otherwise you won't know which bad groups are you and which ones are the ammo. The cheapest ammo that's close to match grade is Prvi Partizan match, and you're looking at 70-80cents/rd for that. And it's not FGMM, which is my baseline for being able to say "it's not the ammo, it's me." Reloading is only an option if you are already really, really good at it, or plan to spend more time reloading than shooting, because reloading better than FGMM requires skill and time.

Anyway, I think you just want a good-enough option anyway. If that's the case, I'd look at the Vortex Viper PST gen2 in 3-15x or 5-25x. These are very good scopes, especially for the price. Not as good as the ones I list above, but good enough for someone still learning. The SWFA 3-15x might be an option, but I prefer the PST. I wouldn't pay the going rate for the SWFA 5-20x50 - it's a good scope but very dated, and has some drawbacks that sound minor but become really irritating with use: stiff parallax, tight eyebox above 15x, too-close clicks.

[opngrnd]

I would look at Viper PST Gen2. I have a couple of the HS-T, which is basically seems to be the non-illuminated version of PST Gen1, and I went out to 800 on several different occasions last summer. The PST Gen2 has better glass, better turrets, illumination, and better reticles.

[calicojack]

To be certain you would never grow past the glass you would need to start with something like a Nightforce (SHV, NXS or NX8), Vortex Razor, Leupold Mark5 or Mark6, etc., all of which are well past your desired price range.

You will also need truly match grade ammo like Federal Gold Medal once you start shooting decently, otherwise you won't know which bad groups are you and which ones are the ammo. The cheapest ammo that's close to match grade is Prvi Partizan match, and you're looking at 70-80cents/rd for that. And it's not FGMM, which is my baseline for being able to say "it's not the ammo, it's me." Reloading is only an option if you are already really, really good at it, or plan to spend more time reloading than shooting, because reloading better than FGMM requires skill and time.

Anyway, I think you just want a good-enough option anyway. If that's the case, I'd look at the Vortex Viper PST gen2 in 3-15x or 5-25x. These are very good scopes, especially for the price. Not as good as the ones I list above, but good enough for someone still learning. The SWFA 3-15x might be an option, but I prefer the PST. I wouldn't pay the going rate for the SWFA 5-20x50 - it's a good scope but very dated, and has some drawbacks that sound minor but become really irritating with use: stiff parallax, tight eyebox above 15x, too-close clicks.So out of curiosity I did a quick search for the razor, nightforces and Mark's. While I could save up for them..... man. $2400-3k is a lot of coin to drop on just glass. I mean I get it. I really do. I just cant justify it right? Even the pst gen 2's MSRP is going to find me breaking my budget. MSRP being $12-1400. It's a lot more doable than $3k is, i just got to wrap my head around it

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[calicojack]

What about the vortex strikeeagle or hst?

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[grizzman]

There’s no reason to pay full MSRP. There’s also nothing wrong with buying a well cared for used optic.

A PST Gen 2 3-15 can be found used for under $600.


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[turnburglar]

My experience has taught me that optics have pretty good longevity. Like I wouldn't hesitate looking into the used market for a higher end optic that was pre loved, that can now be had for mid level prices. Otherwise for your price range I would look at the Primary Arms Gold line up. Their silver line would be a good introduction to optics and can handle long distance shooting, but you wouldn't out grow their gold line.

Also for good long range shooting you are gonna want better ammo. I have seen great results from the hornady frontier brand with the 75gr or 68 BTHP loads.

[SomeOtherGuy]

What about the vortex strikeeagle or hst?

I think you would be very disappointed with those once you gain skill.


So out of curiosity I did a quick search for the razor, nightforces and Mark's. While I could save up for them..... man. $2400-3k is a lot of coin to drop on just glass. I mean I get it. I really do. I just cant justify it right? Even the pst gen 2's MSRP is going to find me breaking my budget. MSRP being $12-1400. It's a lot more doable than $3k is, i just got to wrap my head around it.

I would never spend those amounts on a PST. Hey look, at 5-25x PST at deal of the year pricing ($799):

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-5-25x50-EBR-2D-MRAD-FFP-PST-5257.aspx

The Nightforce SHV F1 can also be found around $1100 with some shopping for "demo" models, at Euro Optic and Sport Optics.

If your budget is really tight - which your rifle specs don't imply - then a $300 fixed 10x power SWFA SS would have OK glass and solid mechanical adjustments, good enough to really build your skills for a while. That is probably the best option on a shoestring budget.

Remember to budget $1/rd for FGMM when you think are shooting well. You can shoot cheaper stuff until your groups are reliably under 3 MOA, then you can use Prvi until you're at or below 1.5 MOA, then you start to really need match ammo. Prvi shoots MOA or better in SOME guns, but not all. FGMM is so well respected because it shoots well in nearly all rifles.

Precision rifle shooting is expensive. The small bit of good news is that you don't need tons of ammo - 40-50rds is a pretty serious practice session if you're doing it right, and even just 10-20 shots in a day can be worthwhile.

[SomeOtherGuy]

And remember you will need a decent mount, not Walmart Chinesium rings. The lowest price mount for an AR that I can recommend is the Warne gen2 extended MSR mount, which is US-made, non-QD, and available for just $75 in 30mm size at JoeBob. If you choose a 34mm scope (none of the ones above are 34mm) then that model is more like $110. A QD mount isn't needed for the purposes you describe, which is good because quality QD mounts start around $150 for ADM and go up from there.

[calicojack]

And remember you will need a decent mount, not Walmart Chinesium rings. The lowest price mount for an AR that I can recommend is the Warne gen2 extended MSR mount, which is US-made, non-QD, and available for just $75 in 30mm size at JoeBob. If you choose a 34mm scope (none of the ones above are 34mm) then that model is more like $110. A QD mount isn't needed for the purposes you describe, which is good because quality QD mounts start around $150 for ADM and go up from there.Generally speaking I run adm recon mounts on all my ar builds. That particular piece has it's own budget.


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[gaijin]

If you’re serious about precision at distance, spending as much, to 2 or 3 times on glass as the gun is SOP.

[everready73]

I would not go with the strike eagle in your price range. PST 2 is the way to go. Vortex offers a good MIL/LEO discount

Primary arms gold line is made in the Phillipines and comparable to PST 2 glass wise

Natchez has Nikon and burris scopes in that price range on sale. XTR2 or FX1000

Meopta Optica 6 https://www.eurooptic.com/Meopta-Optika6-Riflescopes.aspx Have heard very good things

Athlon Ares ETR if you want higher mag. Cal Doug at Camera Land NY for a good price

[calicojack]

I would not go with the strike eagle in your price range. PST 2 is the way to go. Vortex offers a good MIL/LEO discount

Primary arms gold line is made in the Phillipines and comparable to PST 2 glass wise

Natchez has Nikon and burris scopes in that price range on sale. XTR2 or FX1000

Meopta Optica 6 https://www.eurooptic.com/Meopta-Optika6-Riflescopes.aspx Have heard very good things

Athlon Ares ETR if you want higher mag. Cal Doug at Camera Land NY for a good priceWonder if that applies to fire/ems?

Natchez wont sell to alabama. Or at least they wouldnt 6 years ago. Since they refused to ship to alabama I refused to even browse their website.

Heard good things about that last brand

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[MegademiC]

Mk5, 6, nf svh, and vortex viper g2 can all be had for $1700 or less.

I’ll be in the market for glass soon, so Ive been researching. The optika6 looks good, waiting to hear from people once they have one a while.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Wonder if that applies to fire/ems?

Natchez wont sell to alabama. Or at least they wouldnt 6 years ago. Since they refused to ship to alabama I refused to even browse their website.

Natchez is a good company. They have some kind of contractual restriction from their founding that prevents their sales in their home and two neighboring states. I don't know what it is, just saying it isn't bias against Alabama.

Many companies that do a LE/MIL discount include Fire/EMS in that, but I doubt you will beat the price on the PST I posted above. It would definitely be worth looking into for Leupold though, in the past their LE/mil discount was huge.

[dmd08]

There's a Nightforce SHV 4-14 F1 with mil reticle on the EE right now for $950. I have one on a rifle similar to yours and have been very happy with it.

[AndyLate]

Wonder if that applies to fire/ems?

Natchez wont sell to alabama. Or at least they wouldnt 6 years ago. Since they refused to ship to alabama I refused to even browse their website.

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I remember when that was true, because they seemed to be the only reasonable dealer with Glock mags in stock and I couldn't buy them.

Its different now. I bought a Nikon scope from them in February and they shipped it to Alabama no problem.

Eurooptic has some great closeout prices on Nikon scopes too. I bought a rimfire Nikon scope - fast shipping, no complaints.

Andy

[GTF425]

Wonder if that applies to fire/ems?

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I originally had a Promotive (now Experticity) account when I was in the Army, and was able to renew my membership with my Paramedic license.

I just checked, and Vortex is on there as an option for me, but that may be because I was originally Army and my account may still reflect that. But it's worth a look.

[The_War_Wagon]

There’s no reason to pay full MSRP. There’s also nothing wrong with buying a well cared for used optic.

A PST Gen 2 3-15 can be found used for under $600.

I traded a lightly used Aimpoint Pro in an ADM, straight up for a Vortex Razor, gen.2 1 x6 (in the Vortex mount) - roughly $400 +/-

Scout the EE here, and on other boards as well. I just scored a like-new T-1 in a LaRue mount for $550 delivered this week.

[crosseyedshooter]

Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 3-15x44 listed in EE today:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?222379-Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-3-15x44mm

[Mysteryman]

So out of curiosity I did a quick search for the razor, nightforces and Mark's. While I could save up for them..... man. $2400-3k is a lot of coin to drop on just glass. I mean I get it. I really do. I just cant justify it right? Even the pst gen 2's MSRP is going to find me breaking my budget. MSRP being $12-1400. It's a lot more doable than $3k is, i just got to wrap my head around it

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Budget involves two contributing factors. Amount of money over a period of time. If your finances aren't meeting the demands you need to fix one or both factors. Save more money, or save for a longer period of time. Budgets are nothing more than adjusting your financial priorities. If the optic and rifle are a priority in your life, then you will find the money. Saving more, putting money aside more frequently, selling things you don't need or use, working more, not buying alcohol/cigarettes/lottery tickets/takeout food/other discretionary purchases. Think about it long and hard and decide if the optic/rifle is a priority over other items. If it is you'll figure it out. If it isn't, then move along.

[Alpine2k3]

You can save yourself some money on a Vortex that has been refurbished. AAOptics.com sells some.


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[calicojack]

Is this the gen 1 or 2?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/863390672686e515df8bcda77ad37187.jpg

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[calicojack]

Is this the gen 1 or 2?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/863390672686e515df8bcda77ad37187.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk$300 difference for a slightly different reticle apparently. Numbers center line vs outter edges is the only difference I can tell. Anyone know if the glass quality is the same?

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[grizzman]

$300 difference for a slightly different reticle apparently. Numbers center line vs outter edges is the only difference I can tell. Anyone know if the glass quality is the same?

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The Gen 2 turrets and zero stop are improved, the illumination dial is in a better position, and the image clarity is definitely improved (at least with my 4-16 and 3-15).

[calicojack]

The Gen 2 turrets are improved, the illumination dial is in a better position, and the image clarity is definitely improved (at least with my 4-16 and 3-15).So the one I posted is a gen 1 then?

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[grizzman]

Yes, it is a Gen 1, and it's priced to sell. The Gen 1 is still a good optic, just not as good as the Gen 2, and not in the same ballpark as an NXS or likely Razor (I don't own one).

[opngrnd]

Yes. It's a gen1.

[calicojack]

There is a gen 2 with the erb4 reticle with a mount that i just found. Put in an offer at 620. We will see how it goes

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[SilentRecon]

If you’re serious about precision at distance, spending as much, to 2 or 3 times on glass as the gun is SOP.This is 100% truth. I know everyone's pockets are different depths but, IMO, save and buy the best glass you can. I highly suggest being patient and browse different forums optics classifieds. You can get a excellent condition $2k+ scope for a killer deal.

I recently purchased an absolute mint condition Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44 for $1400 shipped.

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[Dennis]

Lots of good reccomendations here but have you defined your accuracy goals? There is a difference between SPR and Precision Rifle. To me, one is Minute of Man (IPSC or ~10" steel) especially at distance and the other is true Minute of Angle. What are you actually going to be shooting at distance?

I love high end glass but it isn't required for an SPR. I would argue that you need to worry more about the reticle and ranging. What reticle system are you willing to learn to make hits at 700? Go simple Minute of Man with an ACSS or learn Horus or mildot? Or will you Chrono your loads and use turret clicks or even create a custom BDC?

This is a much more complicated question with all the available options but directly affects your shooting and usability much more than good glass vs great glass IMOHO.

Enjoy your new build!

Dennis.

[calicojack]

Lots of good reccomendations here but have you defined your accuracy goals? There is a difference between SPR and Precision Rifle. To me, one is Minute of Man (IPSC or ~10" steel) especially at distance and the other is true Minute of Angle. What are you actually going to be shooting at distance?

I love high end glass but it isn't required for an SPR. I would argue that you need to worry more about the reticle and ranging. What reticle system are you willing to learn to make hits at 700? Go simple Minute of Man with an ACSS or learn Horus or mildot? Or will you Chrono your loads and use turret clicks or even create a custom BDC?

This is a much more complicated question with all the available options but directly affects your shooting and usability much more than good glass vs great glass IMOHO.

Enjoy your new build!

Dennis.Looks like me and google are gonna have to have a long decision. I hope the translator picks up all that french you just threw at me

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[Dennis]

Looks like me and google are gonna have to have a long decision. I hope the translator picks up all that french you just threw at me

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Basically, hitting anything past 300Y requires some way to change your aiming point. Either in your reticle, turret clicks, or BDC "bullet dial compensator" you will need more precision and matching to your load than simple hold overs can reliably achieve. Enjoy Google, you will come out the other end much better informed and able to make a decision [emoji3]

Dennis.

[Pappabear]

There’s no reason to pay full MSRP. There’s also nothing wrong with buying a well cared for used optic.

A PST Gen 2 3-15 can be found used for under $600.


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Good advice. I often buy used Nightforce etc. With NF or Vortex, the warranty is lifetime and transferable. You can find used or barely used optics for a deal on here or Snipershide. Buy the best Vortex you can afford and press on.

I like Mil dot scopes, YMMV.

PB

[calicojack]

What's the hive minds opinion on the sig tango 4 line?

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[calicojack]

What's the hive minds opinion on the sig tango 4 line?

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So I know the vortex came highly recommended, but after reading the reviews in the tango4, I found a steal at $599 on it. So worse case scenario I'll sell it if i dont like it.

[opngrnd]

So I know the vortex came highly recommended, but after reading the reviews in the tango4, I found a steal at $599 on it. So worse case scenario I'll sell it if i dont like it.

That's pretty awesome. Let us know what you think of it after a few trips to the range.

[Straight Shooter]

What's the hive minds opinion on the sig tango 4 line?

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Made in CHINA. No deal.