View Full Version : Luftwaffe Super Hornets and Growlers?
Nothing official yet, but it seems to be inching closer to reality. F/A-18's are going to look a little odd wearing the Iron Cross :D
"Germany will order 45 fighter aircraft from Boeing Co. to replace the Luftwaffe’s aging Tornado jets, Der Spiegel magazine reported Sunday.
Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer emailed her U.S. counterpart Mark Esper on Thursday to inform him of the decision, the magazine said, without identifying the source of its information. Germany will order 30 F/A-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers, the report added."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-order-45-fighter-jets-162946385.html
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-19-20, 15:01
Why not run Mig 29s and buy F35s??? (They still have the MIGs, don't they?)
MountainRaven
04-19-20, 15:12
Why not run Mig 29s and buy F35s??? (They still have the MIGs, don't they?)
The MiGs were sold to Poland in 2003 for €1 each (except one, which was put on display).
Nothing official yet, but it seems to be inching closer to reality. F/A-18's are going to look a little odd wearing the Iron Cross :D
"Germany will order 45 fighter aircraft from Boeing Co. to replace the Luftwaffe’s aging Tornado jets, Der Spiegel magazine reported Sunday.
Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer emailed her U.S. counterpart Mark Esper on Thursday to inform him of the decision, the magazine said, without identifying the source of its information. Germany will order 30 F/A-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers, the report added."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-order-45-fighter-jets-162946385.html
Technically it's a Cross Pattée unless you are talking about the military decoration specifically. But yeah, with German camo schemes and everything else it will still be shades of ME 262s.
They currently plan to buy more Eurofighters to enhance their air-to-ground capability. F-35 was dropped from the competition last year (IIRC). They still have the nuclear role, which will take less time and money (in theory) to certify on the F-18's when the Tornado is retired.
Technically it's a Cross Pattée unless you are talking about the military decoration specifically. But yeah, with German camo schemes and everything else it will still be shades of ME 262s.
The camo scheme will probably be the same old boring gray as current US schemes.
Grand58742
04-19-20, 16:10
Why not run Mig 29s and buy F35s??? (They still have the MIGs, don't they?)
Apparently, they wanted them, but politics got involved.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/03/26/germany-reportedly-moving-toward-a-split-buy-of-super-hornets-and-eurofighter-typhoons-to-replace-tornado-jets/
I was reminded the Luftwaffe is the only service left that operates the Tornado ECR which I'm assuming the Growler will replace.
I didn't realize the F/A-18E had never been certified to carry nukes.
Italy also operates the ECR. But then they have F-35's too.
Grand58742
04-19-20, 16:34
I thought they had retired them. Apparently not until 2025.
My candidate for the color scheme. Long live the Cold War:
https://i.imgur.com/Q3aZaqNl.jpg
Just seems wrong.....not an aircraft you'd usually associate with Europe, and it isn't launching from a carrier! Yeah, kind of myopic I know. The Super Hornet is just soooo American.
Finland and Switzerland both fly the F/A-18, although I think they looking to replace them. I think Spain also.
The camo scheme will probably be the same old boring gray as current US schemes.
They should really go with "baby poop" yellow desert camo. It's the most awesome camo pattern I've ever seen. People know you aren't screwing around when you show up in "baby poop" yellow.
Just seems wrong.....not an aircraft you'd usually associate with Europe, and it isn't launching from a carrier! Yeah, kind of myopic I know. The Super Hornet is just soooo American.
Rules of purchase should mandate the playing of "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins during take off.
Is it just me, I associate that song with the F14. As a jar head I like the ground support emphasis of the super hornet much better. If I was a pilot I would prefer the faster, more heavily armed and armored tomcat. If I was commanding a flattop I would be wondering why the Navy ran their best air superiority fighter through the shredder.
Is it just me, I associate that song with the F14. As a jar head I like the ground support emphasis of the super hornet much better. If I was a pilot I would prefer the faster, more heavily armed and armored tomcat. If I was commanding a flattop I would be wondering why the Navy ran their best air superiority fighter through the shredder.
I thought the Hornet and certainly the Super Hornet outperformed just about everything when compared to the Tomcat?
I thought the Hornet and certainly the Super Hornet outperformed just about everything when compared to the Tomcat?
They don't have the range nor speed of the F14, and apparently they don't have the muscle to run the Phoenix, the missile the Tomcat was built around.
They got old and expensive, and at the end of the Cold War we didn't see long-range Soviet ship-hunting bombers as a threat.
If Germany did not/does not modernize their Eurofighters or Tornados to carry American B61-12s then they fall out of the NATO nuclear-sharing program (configure and train to drop US-controlled nukes). They might like Russian oil and gas, but I don't think even the libs trust the Russians.
A lot of their planes and equipment are getting old enough that they're running into cost-benefit issues.
clipped from another site:
===================
"Modern nuclear weapons are relatively compact and easily carried by any modern strike aircraft.
The F/A-18 is certified for nuclear operations.
However, the caveat is that modern nuclear weapons are fitted with a device known as a “Permissive Action Link” to maintain command and control authority for their use.
Some designs might place many of the control settings on a bomb itself, adjustable only before flight. This would involve a number of settings, such as fuzing, yield, and height of burst. In this case, the controls are located on the bomb, and only adjustable before flight. The PAL is enabled on the weapon.
This is the preflight controller from a B61–5:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ca571450dc063016532762918a4db88f
And this is the “nuclear consent” switch from an F-16 fighter:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f15d5f782054debd8923d3e864c3642b
This is the nuclear command switch from an FB-111 fighter:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dac92c33793bc40ba70623ca3930cd47
More modern designs, like the B-2, have a system in which the PAL links and weapon controls can all be set in-flight from the cockpit. This has the advantage that changes to delivery method can be made on the fly and bombers can be proactively launched on alert without weapons authority, which can be authorized in-flight if necessary.
To deploy nuclear weapons, a fighter/bomber will need the corresponding electronics for the weapon employed."
Grand58742
04-20-20, 12:42
If Germany did not/does not modernize their Eurofighters or Tornados to carry American B61-12s then they fall out of the NATO nuclear-sharing program (configure and train to drop US-controlled nukes). They might like Russian oil and gas, but I don't think even the libs trust the Russians.
A lot of their planes and equipment are getting old enough that they're running into cost-benefit issues.
The German Tornadoes are already certified for B61 ops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taktisches_Luftwaffengeschwader_33
The German Tornadoes are already certified for B61 ops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taktisches_Luftwaffengeschwader_33
Yep, but they're on the way to retirement which would leave the Luftwaffe without a nuclear-capable delivery aircraft.
Grand58742
04-20-20, 18:47
Yep, but they're on the way to retirement which would leave the Luftwaffe without a nuclear-capable delivery aircraft.
I was reading up on it and it says 2025 as a target date. Should be plenty of time to get an already existing system (or get the F-35 upgraded to carry the B61) approved.
Something interesting will be the introduction (or reintroduction) of a 20mm system into the Luftwaffe since the Hornet has the Vulcan. Since the retirement of the Phantom, they haven't had a 20mm system in their fighters.
I wonder why they omitted the current F-15 systems from their list. Seems like the current versions like the ones Singapore and Qatar bought would end up being a suitable replacement for the Tornado with multirole capability.
I wonder why they omitted the current F-15 systems from their list. Seems like the current versions like the ones Singapore and Qatar bought would end up being a suitable replacement for the Tornado with multirole capability.
From what I know, yes, the F15SG would seem to be a good fit. Maybe the concern was that with roughly twice the combat range a rogue pilot might decide to visit Moscow in the winter. :jester:
Dr. Bullseye
04-20-20, 21:13
OP, they really don't call it the Luftwaffe any more.
MountainRaven
04-20-20, 21:23
OP, they really don't call it the Luftwaffe any more.
Better tell them that.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/30%2B68_German_Air_Force_Eurofighter_Typhoon_EF2000_ILA_Berlin_2016_06.jpg
The USAF's new F-15EX version (based largely on the newer export model for Qatar) would have made a great long range, heavy strike aircraft for Germany. And nuclear certification would be shared (probably) with the US, so costs would have been less. But any F-15 variant was dropped from the competition quite early.
I wanna see the Swiss F-18's launch from the mountainside catapaults...
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-20-20, 23:54
Germany is going to build a carrier!
Germany is going to build a carrier!
Will they call it Bismarck?
Will they call it Bismarck?
Well the Japanese named one of their new carriers Kaga, so why not...
I wanna see the Swiss F-18's launch from the mountainside catapaults...
Nah... I want to see them land in the same cave by catching a wire.
Germany's Tornados are getting expensive to fly (if they're not broken now) since the Brits have retired theirs and the Italians are next.
From Deutsche Welle:
==============
"In a given week in late November, the number of flightworthy Tornado fighter jets stationed at Büchel Air Base varied widely: Sometimes, twelve out of the 45 planes were operational; soon after, less than a handful.
"That's pretty tight," according to one pilot.
He spoke to DW on condition of anonymity. For the air base, tucked away amid the picturesque plateaus of the Eifel region in western Germany, has a special, secret mission: It is here that American nuclear bombs are stored in what is officially termed a "nuclear sharing agreement."
In the case of a nuclear strike, German Tornado fighter jets and their crews would deliver the American bombs.
Büchel air base in Germany (picture alliance / dpa)
An aerial view of Büchel, where as many as 20 nuclear bombs are stored
American bombs on German soil
Their location is a state secret. The German government has never officially confirmed the existence of the nuclear bombs in Büchel. The precise number of bombs stored in the underground vaults in the air base is thus unclear; estimates range between 10 to 20.
On the record, the Germany government only admits to being part of the sharing agreement, which dates back to the Cold War and NATO's nuclear deterrence strategy aimed at keeping Soviet influence at bay.
In essence, it provides for member states of the military alliance without nuclear weapons to partake in planning and training for the use of nuclear weapons by NATO and, officials argue, for their views to be taken into account by nuclear-capable countries, including the US. Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Italy are all part of the sharing agreement.
Upkeep of Tornado fleet skyrocketing
But as Germany's Tornado fleet is swiftly nearing the end of its shelf life, the cost of maintaining a fleet for the nuclear mission is skyrocketing.
"The increase each year is brutally high," as one parliamentarian put it.
DW has obtained a copy of an official document from the Ministry of Defense, which puts the expenditure for the Tornado fleet, including maintenance, procurement and development, at €502 million ($562 million) in 2018. This year, the figure is estimated to reach €629 million.
The problem is that the planes date back to the early 1980s. Until a few years ago, the fleet, which once numbered roughly 350 planes, was progressively reduced, meaning that retired airplanes could be cannibalized for spare parts.
Now, parts for the remaining 85 airplanes have to be manufactured at great cost — or taken from jets that are undergoing maintenance and built into those about to be returned to the Air Force, leading to long delays in planes becoming airworthy again.
The situation is so dire that pilots are struggling to fulfill the quota of flight hours needed to maintain their license — and it is leading to a shortage of flightworthy planes needed for the nuclear sharing agreement and other missions.
Tornado planes in maintenance in Airbus compound (Airbus Defence and Space)
Tornado planes in Manching undergoing their routine maintenance
Spare parts 'more and more difficult'
In early December, in an imposing purpose-built hangar at an Airbus' compound, civilian and military mechanics were busy doing maintenance on twenty disassembled Tornados — some of them were stripped of their varnish, a tangle of cables visible in their fuselage, their distinctive black nosecones propped beside them.
It is here, in the vast compound close to the sleepy Bavarian town of Manching, that the Air Forces' Tornado fleet undergoes its routine maintenance.
Planes rotate in every three years — and most stay for roughly 350 days, according to Katharina Semmler-Schuler, head of Tornado Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul at Airbus Defence and Space Germany.
Spare parts, she said, were indeed a problem — the process of rotating them from one plane to the next added an extra 20 days to the maintenance, she said. "And it's getting more and more difficult."
Competing interests and heel-dragging
But despite the problems, Germany seems in no hurry to replace its fleet: While most other European countries have retired Tornado jets or are in the process of doing so, the German government has yet to decide which plane to replace it with.
DW spoke to several government and opposition politicians and members of the German Air Force — and they all agreed that a decision was urgent. The Tornado's operational capability is only guaranteed until 2025. After that, the costs for extending the fleet for another five years could be as high as €13 billion. Once a deal has been reached, it could still take several years for the airplanes to be built and then finally reach the Air Force hangars.
The decision has pitted different strategic, political and industrial interests in Germany and abroad against each other, making it difficult to reach a consensus for a deal that could be as high as €10 billion.
F-35 fighter jet (picture-alliance/AP Photo/F. Hanson)
Several European countries have opted for the state-of-the-art F-35 fighter jet
Three options: F-35, F/A-18, or Eurofighter
Talk to politicians and Air Force officials and they name three possible airplanes: The F-35, F/A-18, or Eurofighter Typhoon.
Many within the German Air Force prefer the American F-35 fighter jet produced by Lockheed Martin, the most modern airplane available on the market.
American planes would come with established logistics chains and programs to quickly train pilots, compared to training in Germany which can drag on for years.
The other European nuclear-sharing countries — Belgium, the Netherlands, and Italy — have all opted for the F-35.
French pressure against American F-35 jets
But here this option seems to have been quietly dropped, in part due to French pressure: For Germany and France are in the early stages of developing a joint fighter plane — the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), which combines manned fighter jets with swarms of cloud-connected drones.
"We let the French blackmail us," one parliamentarian, who favors the F-35, told DW.
The French threatened to go FCAS alone, should Germany buy the modern American F-35 jets, which could make the government here less inclined to pour billions into the development of a possibly only slightly more state-of-the-art European jet that could take years, possibly decades, until it reaches the market.
Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet at the Paris Air Show (picture-alliance/NurPhoto/N. Economou)
A German Eurofighter jet on display at the International Paris Air Show in 2019
And, there is another reason some politicians are wary of the F-35: It is, they concede, basically a black box. "You don't know which information or data may be transmitted to America," one parliamentarian told DW.
In theory, Germany could add to its 138-strong fleet of Eurofighter jets, built by a European consortium owned by Germany, Spain, Italy and the United Kingdom. In Germany, the plane's final assembly is also done in Manching, where the Tornados undergo their maintenance, and it is an important regional employer.
During a recent visit to Manching, Wolfgang Gammel, Vice President of Airbus Defence and Space, did his best to promote his company's fighter jet to DW. "As long as there is a European option, Germany should buy European," he stressed.
Airbus knows that many within the Air Force are unhappy with the quality of planes that were delivered in the past — but Gammel pointed to overly bureaucratic and drawn-out military procurement policies in Germany.
Much is at stake for the company, as a deal would come with lucrative maintenance contracts which would secure jobs for decades.
And the Eurofighter is an important component of FCAS. Should Germany decide to buy an American plane, Gammel fears, funding for research and development into upgrading the Eurofighter could be put on hold — or the entire project could be put off.
In his office decked out with model fighter planes, he told DW that the Eurofighter was perfectly capable of replacing the Tornado fleet, including its nuclear capacity.
Nuclear certification
It is a tricky issue, as the US reportedly told the German government that it would take much longer to certify the Eurofighter for its nuclear role than any American aircraft — possibly up to ten years. That would push it close to the Tornados' end date."
Germany's Tornados used to employ the impressive MW-1 weapon (later disposed of by treaty opbligation).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imPoL8bf8W8
Nah... I want to see them land in the same cave by catching a wire.
LOL at the first time someone bolters...
sundance435
04-21-20, 19:20
I was reading up on it and it says 2025 as a target date. Should be plenty of time to get an already existing system (or get the F-35 upgraded to carry the B61) approved.
Something interesting will be the introduction (or reintroduction) of a 20mm system into the Luftwaffe since the Hornet has the Vulcan. Since the retirement of the Phantom, they haven't had a 20mm system in their fighters.
I wonder why they omitted the current F-15 systems from their list. Seems like the current versions like the ones Singapore and Qatar bought would end up being a suitable replacement for the Tornado with multirole capability.
F-15SG or X would seemingly be a much better fit for a bunch of reasons, not least of which is that the platform was designed and updated with nuclear bomb delivery in mind. The only reason I can think of is that the Supers are probably slightly less expensive if we're assuming the F-15X is roughly $90 million a copy. That, and I suppose you could make some kind of argument that they could be supplied with arrestors in the event they ever had to land on a carrier, which could be a useful capability.
I think the legacy Hornets are the only USN aircraft certified for nuke bomb delivery after they shortsightedly retired the S-3 platform.
Better tell them that.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/30%2B68_German_Air_Force_Eurofighter_Typhoon_EF2000_ILA_Berlin_2016_06.jpg
Yeah, they definitely still call it the Luftwaffe. It's the closest literal German word for "air force", not Natzi nomenclature.
Regardless, absent some heavy investment, the entire German military is a paper tiger - good tech, horrible availability. The next time around my odds would be heavily in France's favor.
Yeah, they definitely still call it the Luftwaffe. It's the closest literal German word for "air force", not Natzi nomenclature.
Regardless, absent some heavy investment, the entire German military is a paper tiger - good tech, horrible availability. The next time around my odds would be heavily in France's favor.
I imagine it's difficult to maintain a modern, capable military with all that nazi guilt hanging over their head. Hell their rank nomenclature still has a bunch of "fuhrer" words and if you say "air force" in German people think you mean nazis. The most important day in the modern German military was when they finally retired those old "stahlhelm" helmets. Even when the police broke them out for an attempted raid during the Munich '72 games the first thing everyone thought of was nazis.
I don't think there is any getting out from under that. Anyone who attempts to make Germany a first world military power will immediately be called "Hitler" and german armament companies will take pride in denying arms sales to a "resurgent Germany." It's just never gonna happen so I think France is pretty safe for the foreseeable future. Besides France has already been invaded and occupied starting with Albania and most recently by the Syrian militia. Germany suffered the same fate because otherwise they are nazis.
I'm not sure what the karma ratio is for the shit they pulled for 5 years but it seems like it is more than 10:1. Merkel damn sure didn't help anything. I think currently Japan has a greater military capacity than Germany.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-22-20, 08:01
And inept and shamed German military is not the worst thing in the world. A German military with French weapons, not that is interesting... kind of the reverse of putting the Germans in charge of lovemaking.
My dad was a history teacher. He said that either my kids or my grandkids would fight the Germans.
And inept and shamed German military is not the worst thing in the world. A German military with French weapons, not that is interesting... kind of the reverse of putting the Germans in charge of lovemaking.
My dad was a history teacher. He said that either my kids or my grandkids would fight the Germans.
As funny is the movie is, Austin Powers had a scene where Number 2 was telling Dr Evil about how now they're into owning legitimate businesses, multinational corporations, and conglomerates. The criminal business was doing things differently.
It's a Brave New World for defense, Israel also uses German and Austrian weapons, Germany uses French weapons, the US uses weapons from everywhere.....
Grand58742
04-22-20, 08:32
As funny is the movie is, Austin Powers had a scene where Number 2 was telling Dr Evil about how now they're into owning legitimate businesses, multinational corporations, and conglomerates. The criminal business was doing things differently.
It's a Brave New World for defense, Israel also uses German and Austrian weapons, Germany uses French weapons, the US uses weapons from everywhere.....
Since WWII, Germany (East and West) have used no few purely domestically designed combat aircraft. I'm not sure the Soviets allowed the East German industry to produce domestic designs during the Cold War like other Eastern Bloc nations did and West German industries tended to either corroborate with other nations or buy purely foreign designs. MBB and Dornier are the only two companies that really had a stake in the aircraft market during those times and they were limited to helicopters and light cargo aircraft.
It's kind of sad since the German engineering produced some great combat aircraft between the end of WWI and WWII.
The German company Hensoldt is working on the "passive radar" concept (along with other companies, no doubt.):
"Passive radar equipment computes an aerial picture by reading how civilian communications signals bounce off airborne objects. The technique works with any type of signal present in airspace, including radio or television broadcasts as well as emissions from mobile phone stations. The technology can be effective against stealthy aircraft designs, which are meant to break and absorb signals from traditional radar emitters so that nothing reflects back to ground-station sensors, effectively leaving defensive-radar operators in the dark.
Because there are no emitters, passive radar is covert, meaning pilots entering a monitored area are unaware they are being tracked. There are limitations to the technology. For one, it depends on the existence of radio signals, which may not be a given in remote areas of the globe. In addition, the technology is not yet accurate enough to guide missiles, though it could be used to send infrared-homing weapons close to a target."
https://www.hensoldt.net/products/radar-iff-and-datalink/twinvis-passive-radar/
Grand58742
04-22-20, 09:00
My candidate for the color scheme. Long live the Cold War:
https://i.imgur.com/Q3aZaqNl.jpg
If they don't paint them permanently in the Tiger Meet colors, they are just wrong.
https://www.4aviation.nl/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Report-Norway-2012-kop2-4Aviation.jpg
Dirk Williams
04-22-20, 11:11
Great thread, was a navy AC mech from 76 to 83, then civilian A-10 newdralics mechanic, 83/87, before Leo. Was in Reno Nv, last week at the VA Hospital. A little tiny jet transited the Reno airport runway, at roughly 500 k, stood the bird on its tail, and disappeared into the sun.
Thinking it was a TopGun A4, in desert camo, out of NAS Fallon Nv. Hadn't seen an A4 since I left NAS Lemoore Ca, in 78.
No experience with the 18s, lots of time on the flight deck with tomcats, on the "HAWK".
DW
Nah... I want to see them land in the same cave by catching a wire.
I don't want to see the bolter.......
A little early to speculate, but presumably any new German Super Hornet will be the "Block III" variant, with conformal tanks, 9,000+ hour airframe, and all the other "more better" upgrades.
sundance435
04-22-20, 14:39
A little early to speculate, but presumably any new German Super Hornet will be the "Block III" variant, with conformal tanks, 9,000+ hour airframe, and all the other "more better" upgrades.
Yes, most likely, but still not certified from the factory for nuclear missions - they're just "nuclear capable". They will probably insert that during production in the next few years, given that the Navy is quickly divesting itself of legacy Hornets which are the only naval aircraft certified for it now. I believe Germany wants to start fielding the first few within the next 3 years.
And inept and shamed German military is not the worst thing in the world. A German military with French weapons, not that is interesting... kind of the reverse of putting the Germans in charge of lovemaking.
My dad was a history teacher. He said that either my kids or my grandkids would fight the Germans.
I don't think the Germans will ever fight anyone (except limited NATO missions) for the next 100 years. The country is basically neutered and is going to stay that way. It would take a Russian invasion of western Europe to make Germany stand and fight and I don't think Russia is going to do that.
I also think large scale "world wars" or hot wars between super powers are a thing of the past. We fight economic wars these days, currently China is kicking our ass in the "economic war" we have been fighting since the mid 80s.
The next "big deal" war is going to happen when some martyr state like Iran gets a true nuclear capability, then it's on and one or more places are going to remember things like what rad counts are. It's really not a matter of "if" but "when", I'm actually amazed Pakistan hasn't thrown down yet. Maybe the fact that they can't nuke India without choking on their own fallout is keeping them cool.
sundance435
04-24-20, 11:12
I don't think the Germans will ever fight anyone (except limited NATO missions) for the next 100 years. The country is basically neutered and is going to stay that way. It would take a Russian invasion of western Europe to make Germany stand and fight and I don't think Russia is going to do that.
I also think large scale "world wars" or hot wars between super powers are a thing of the past. We fight economic wars these days, currently China is kicking our ass in the "economic war" we have been fighting since the mid 80s.
The next "big deal" war is going to happen when some martyr state like Iran gets a true nuclear capability, then it's on and one or more places are going to remember things like what rad counts are. It's really not a matter of "if" but "when", I'm actually amazed Pakistan hasn't thrown down yet. Maybe the fact that they can't nuke India without choking on their own fallout is keeping them cool.
I mostly agree. Germany is and will fight economic wars, but their days of fighting physical wars are past with zero indication they intend to change that anytime soon. They would much rather use the avoided cost savings of our military presence for their own benefit and towards their economic clout.
As for peer wars or "big" wars, again, I agree. I think we're more much more likely to see a new Cold War, if we're not already in it, for which the Chinese are a much more capable enemy than the Soviet Union as these off-book conflicts will be as much economic as military. I don't think we can discount the possibility of a limited war with China or Russia, though, which I think is behind the transformation of the Corps.
As you said, the most likely conflicts will be the result of desperate, last-gasp moves from countries like Iran, Pakistan, or a hemmed-in Saudi Arabia. To Pakistan specifically, it hasn't touched off yet because the government has nominal control over maybe half the country and they are very aware of how deficient their military is. Pakistan knows it will likely be the biggest loser in any conflict with India, nuclear or conventional. Their nukes are a deterrent - their biggest risk to everyone is rogue use. I don't ever see their leadership willingly launching first against India - not to say a rogue general couldn't. I also wouldn't call India a first-rate power by any stretch, but sheer numbers and moderate technological edge are in their favor vis a vis Pakistan. There's huge potential with India, though, and I've thought for years that we really need to be focusing on improving strategic alliances with them. It may be a shitshow of a democracy, but at least it is a democracy in an otherwise undemocratic part of the world.
There's huge potential with India, though, and I've thought for years that we really need to be focusing on improving strategic alliances with them. It may be a shitshow of a democracy, but at least it is a democracy in an otherwise undemocratic part of the world.
I think with the right support, and I don't mean "steve from tech support", a modernized and capable India could be quite formidable. Japan still pees down their leg if you say the word "Gurkha" and that is when India was still a subject of the UK and given last round of hand me down weapons and support.
The main hindrance is their GDP is half of Japan but with a population ten times the size. India needs to figure out what their domestic resources are and start building stuff. It's a shame all of our nikes, iphones and other things are made in China, Vietnam and other countries that don't have our best interests in mind. India could make most of that shit and probably do a better job.
Never say Never, the world was just inverted economically , what follows the bust is anyone's guess.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-24-20, 18:52
I think with the right support, and I don't mean "steve from tech support", a modernized and capable India could be quite formidable. Japan still pees down their leg if you say the word "Gurkha" and that is when India was still a subject of the UK and given last round of hand me down weapons and support.
The main hindrance is their GDP is half of Japan but with a population ten times the size. India needs to figure out what their domestic resources are and start building stuff. It's a shame all of our nikes, iphones and other things are made in China, Vietnam and other countries that don't have our best interests in mind. India could make most of that shit and probably do a better job.
English speaking, rule of law, well educated. Butt-ass dirty, corrupt, horrible infrastructure. Same country. A country actually made up of hundreds of countries and city-states that makes the EU look like a straightforward endeavor. You can look at an unused bridge or flyover and wonder if is being built or is in disuse from old age. You literally can't tell if they are pulling themselves up or in some kind of post apocalyptic nightmare. That said, you can roll like Mad Men from the 50-60s there. Sikhs can be some hard-drinking trouble makers that would make a Texan pass out. Had some of my best meals along with the worst steaks and Ghandi's Revenge... Almost ended up in jail one night in Mumbai. India gives, it takes and it never can be fully understood.
English speaking, rule of law, well educated. Butt-ass dirty, corrupt, horrible infrastructure. Same country. A country actually made up of hundreds of countries and city-states that makes the EU look like a straightforward endeavor. You can look at an unused bridge or flyover and wonder if is being built or is in disuse from old age. You literally can't tell if they are pulling themselves up or in some kind of post apocalyptic nightmare. That said, you can roll like Mad Men from the 50-60s there. Sikhs can be some hard-drinking trouble makers that would make a Texan pass out. Had some of my best meals along with the worst steaks and Ghandi's Revenge... Almost ended up in jail one night in Mumbai. India gives, it takes and it never can be fully understood.
I'm amazed you could even order a steak in India. The cook probably thought he was serving his great grandmother. Yeah, it has the same population / poverty problems of China. But I think given the same kind of infrastructure you could mostly accomplish the same second world standard of living without the need of communism and the mass starvation of less useful, rural folks.
And it will never be perfect, nothing is...even we end up with Detroits and Chicagos, but I think if we moved everything currently being built in Mexico to India it would make a dramatic change. NAFTA never did a damn thing to help ease the problem of illegal immigration, all it did was overwhelm to ports and borders to "Made in Mexico" products that used to be made in the US and that meant we were almost powerless to prevent the importation of illegal drugs, illegal people and a ton of other shit we don't want coming through the border along with all of the cars, tvs and other products.
I'd rather have a bunch of shit coming in from Taiwan, India and Japan.
Historically, India has bought much (if not most) of their weapons from Russia. In recent years, they've shopped Uncle Sam - C-17's, C-130's, Harpoon missiles, P-8's, Apaches, M777 howitzers, MH-60R's, etc.
They still seem to operate with a hodgepodge of small arms, though.
Diamondback
04-24-20, 22:47
And it will never be perfect, nothing is...even we end up with Detroits and Chicagos, but I think if we moved everything currently being built in Mexico to India it would make a dramatic change. NAFTA never did a damn thing to help ease the problem of illegal immigration, all it did was overwhelm to ports and borders to "Made in Mexico" products that used to be made in the US and that meant we were almost powerless to prevent the importation of illegal drugs, illegal people and a ton of other shit we don't want coming through the border along with all of the cars, tvs and other products.
I'd rather have a bunch of shit coming in from Taiwan, India and Japan.
This. Preferential trade partnership should be given to countries that actually ACT LIKE allies, and that includes cutting off the work permits for Canada as long as they insist on poking us with sticks, their "cross-border labor is a one-way flow, we'll take all your jobs we can but don't you DARE come up here!" thing just for one.
MountainRaven
11-12-20, 22:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DKbjICkTvY
So Germany is buying more Typhoons, but has still not budgeted any Super Hornet purchase(s). So it is possible the Luftwaffe may be getting Super Hornets, eventually, but Germany still has not decided upon a replacement for the Tornado.
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