View Full Version : Which DS Arms to Get?
I have an original Belgian FAL, but the length/weight keep it mostly a safe queen. I would like to pick up a shorter/lighter DSA but am having a hard time deciding between the 16" Tactical Carbine and the 18" Para model. I know Larry Vickers recommended the 16" bbl. Tactical Carbine and I was able to play with one at the NRA Convention in Louisville and liked it a lot. However, the DSA gunsmith, who competes with one, stated he actually preferred the 18" barrel para model with fixed stock fo reasons of control -- fast follow up shots, etc.
What's nagging me most about the 16" is the resultant loss in wound ballistics. The question is this: How much ballistic efficiency do I lose going from the 18" down to a 16"? Is it emasculated enough to be merely a 7.62x39 with that bbl. length?
On the other side of the coin, will the extra two inches of the para model barrel Bill recommmended make a significant difference in close quarters? My thought is that it will, but I need input from those who've actually tried it.
Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Gutshot John
11-23-08, 19:35
What's nagging me most about the 16" is the resultant loss in wound ballistics. The question is this: How much ballistic efficiency do I lose going from the 18" down to a 16"?
You're talking about a comparative loss of velocity of about 200-300 fps tops.
I wouldn't worry about it. Inside of 500 meters you're not going to notice a significant difference.
Is it emasculated enough to be merely a 7.62x39 with that bbl. length?
I don't know that a 7.62x39 is "merely" anything, least of all emasculated.
Please don't misunderstand my comment. Emasculated in that it is no longer a 308. I understand fully the potential of the 7.62x39, but I also understand the 7.62x51. I'm looking more for the latter, not the former. I already have the former. It I'm getting a 200 yard rifle, I can stick with the AK. I want a 308 . Hope that clarifies it a bit.
I personally prefer the 18" barrel, but I also own a 16" barrel.
No worries. You don't get down to 7.62x39mm velocity until you're talking about the OSW, which is stupid short for a battle rifle.
Vickers with his practical FAL set up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201/DSC00196.jpg
And stupid short....every time he pulled the trigger, it rocked me (I was right beside him for the class)....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201/DSC00217.jpg
**Edit...I'm not saying Ron is stupid, I've had several classes with him and he's an outstanding guy, only that the OSW, while high on the CDI factor, is stupid short. ;)
If I were looking at another FAL carbine, I'd go with the 18" Congo, or if I couldn't find an 18", I'd "settle" for the 16".
+1 on the 18" as well
I love my 16" Stainless Tactical Para: shoot sub MOA, but is a loud MoFo. Not sure you want <16" for a 308.
Crappy pic - I know, but the only one I have:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z302/mpardun/P1010447.jpg
So far two who have both barrel lengths prefer the 18". Is the muzzle blast the deciding factor?
Still would like to see some chronograph results between the two barrel lengths. I used to teach/use statistics, so actual numbers give me a bit more confidence when it's time to make a decision.
I'm curious why Larry Vickers preferred the fixed stock over the Socom stock.
That "SOCOM" stock looks awfully heavy and bulky.
I agree, it does look bulky and heavy, but the one they had at the NRA show felt great -- actually quite a bit better than the standard FAL folding stock, and had great balance, ergos. I was a bit surprised. I had originally figured to just get the standard fixed stock, as the standard FAL folders are heavier, but the Socom was pretty nifty on the 16" Tactical Carbine they had on display. My major complaint was the $290.00 price tag for one. That really runs the price up on an already expensive rifle.
if I was looking at a new DSA Fal, I would get an 18 Inch "Congo" para from the classic series...
http://www.dsarms.com/images/SA58PCONGO.gif
IMHO the 18 inch guns run better than the 16s...
B
The SOCOM stock is horrible. It is made buy ACE Rifle Stocks and, barring a complete re-design is just crap, I broke two before DSA simply refunded me the money for it. The notches for the cross pin to engage simply "rounded off" due to recoil, as the stock is made completely from aluminum.
The velocity loss between a 16" and an 18" is no where near 200-300 fps. It is only about 30fps per inch with a .308
Here is the data recently chronoed on the same day, at the same time with the same ammo lots between a 16" and a 20" (if 7.62x39 can equal a .308 from a 16" barrel, that's 150grains at 2543fps I will eat my shorts!).
Temp 72 Alt 5200
...........................16" bbl.....................20" bbl
American Eagle .308Win 150gr FMJBT #AE308D
...........................2538............................2669
...........................2537............................2681
...........................2506............................2703
...........................2538............................2635
....................Avg 2543.....................Avg 2663
....................SD......32.23................S D.......32.81
120ft/sec difference
Federal .308Win 150gr Soft Point #308A
...........................2588............................2724
...........................2594............................2741
...........................2595............................2729
...........................2582............................2736
...........................2605............................2726
....................Avg 2593......................Avg 2731
....................SD........8.54................ SD........7.07
138ft/sec difference
Barnaul .308Win 168gr FMJBT
...........................2424............................2554
...........................2388............................2515
...........................2455............................2507
...........................2379............................2505
...........................2399............................2518
....................Avg 2409......................Avg 2520
....................SD.......30.74................S D......19.92
111ft/sec difference
This means even that even budget .308 American Eagle FMJ is still hypersonic past 800 yards from a 16" bbl FAL and the average loss of velocity between and quality 16"bbl and a 20" is only about 120fps. (16" to 18" 60fps?)
The shorter barrel really wont make that much of a difference at ranges you can hit at with a FAL.
I'm curious why Larry Vickers preferred the fixed stock over the Socom stock.
Isn't Larry Vickers left handed? This would make sense for a fixed stock over a PARA.
With the ACE M4 adapter on the PARA hinge bolt you can attached basically any M4 type stock you want. Here is a new Magpul CTR
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/th_CamzFAL-1.jpg (http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/CamzFAL-1.jpg)
and here is my DSA that had the SOCOM stock so you know I am not just talking shit.
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/th_DSAParaTacticalVS02.jpg (http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/Guns/17%20inch/DSAParaTacticalVS02.jpg)
Cameron
Cameron, GREAT POST! That's precisely what I was looking for. I'm glad you detailed your problems with the Socom stock, as you just saved me lots of money! I sure didn't doubt your word or anyone else's for that matter.
All the information posted by everyone has been a great help. I'm leaning toward the 16" unless someone can give me a good reason for the extra 2 inches of barrel.
The shortest barrel the engineers at FN could make a FAL run reliably in battle conditions was 17 & 3/4 of an inch... & They have forgotten more about FALs than we will ever know…
YMMV
Dang Buck, I guess you gave me a very good reason to go 18". That little bit of information kinda complicates things.
Dang Buck, I guess you gave me a very good reason to go 18". That little bit of information kinda complicates things.
When two battle rifle guys are telling you basically exactly the same thing.........:D
I hear ya! Thanks much for the valuable advice.
rly45acp, DSA makes nice rifles, but somtimes they use surplus parts. For the exspensive price just make sure they give you new, US Made internals. Might save you from worrying about rusting problems.
I would listen to the pros on the barrel length. I bought a 16", short gas system upper, that both lend to kicking my a** at the range. The fixed stock is a bit more robust and is easier on the shoulder than the Para version. I still prefer the para stock though.
I want a Para Congo...
Anyone know the wait time? I heard a nasty rumor that it was 4 months.
usmadefals.com usually has them in stock. I have never ordered from him myself. I think my local range has some in stock, but they are a little high. I'll call mu buddy up there today and see, you should be able to order over the phone, and have it shipped to your FFL. I believe the wait time is 4-6 months. I got an OSW earlier this year that took over 6 months to get not including the time for the tax stamp. I have not had a single problem with mine. You will not be disappointed in the rifle, I got the quad rail, extended duty mount, and trigger job(which is great), and could not be happier. It is definitely my favorite rifle.
QuickStrike
11-24-08, 06:38
Are the barrels on the congo model chrome lined?
I personally prefer the 18" barrel, but I also own a 16" barrel.
No worries. You don't get down to 7.62x39mm velocity until you're talking about the OSW, which is stupid short for a battle rifle.
Vickers with his practical FAL set up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201/DSC00196.jpg
Correct me if I'm wrong Templar, but isn't that one that LAV is holding a 16" with full length gas system?
The Para Congo rocks. My shoots like a mother (an inch or under of the bench with S.A. ball and a Hendsoldt ZF 4) The para stock is ok for about 100 rounds, after that it is a bit uncomfortable. I am saving for a matching gun with a fixed stock, durra coated in green. Suggestions, delete the carry handle, get the speed trigger job, get the DSA top cover scope mount, and the tritium night sights are nice for braging rights.
Matt
After all the terrific information received here, I ordered the SA 58 Carbine with 18" barrel. Here's the kicker: 15 to 20 week wait!
I figure anything worth having is worth waiting for and this is a far shorter period than any of my custom 1911's.
Thank you very much for all the insights and suggestions.
After all the terrific information received here, I ordered the SA 58 Carbine with 18" barrel. Here's the kicker: 15 to 20 week wait!
I figure anything worth having is worth waiting for and this is a far shorter period than any of my custom 1911's.
Thank you very much for all the insights and suggestions.
The last time I talked to them a couple of days ago, they told me a 20 week wait would be the best I could hope for....
Thanks Obammy.
El Mac, I'm thinking that is the 17 3/4" barrel.
I see Vickers runs the standard length gas system on a 16" barrel so I can't imagine it being that bad, but has anybody heard of there being problems with the rifle gas system and a 16" barrel?
Some good info here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=21367
I see Vickers runs the standard length gas system on a 16" barrel so I can't imagine it being that bad, but has anybody heard of there being problems with the rifle gas system and a 16" barrel?
Nope. :cool:
Gutshot John
12-06-08, 11:00
I see Vickers runs the standard length gas system on a 16" barrel so I can't imagine it being that bad, but has anybody heard of there being problems with the rifle gas system and a 16" barrel?
Actually we had a discussion about this a while ago.
Yes there can be problems due to the shorter dwell time (muzzle is close to gas port), same as in an AR.
It's a relatively easy fix if you have any problems.
PS. "Standard" length is the same as "rifle" length. These are both different than the "short" gas system which is not "standard".
I owned a 16" carbine for several years
It was dead reliable with good mags and a great shooter. with some impressive muzzle blast:D
What I did not like was the LOP on the fixed stock
It was the main reason that I eventually sold it
I owned a 16" carbine for several years
It was dead reliable with good mags and a great shooter. with some impressive muzzle blast:D
What I did not like was the LOP on the fixed stock
It was the main reason that I eventually sold it
This parallels what I've been told by other owners of 16" rifles with the standard gas system.
As for the LOP, thats an easy fix.
RAM Engineer
12-06-08, 14:01
Are the barrels on the congo model chrome lined?
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. Being only an AR shooter, I'm conditioned to gravitate towards chrome lined barrels. I've never been able to find out whether ANY of the original FN models or the DSA guns used chrome-lined barrels.
I've never been able to find out whether ANY of the original FN models or the DSA guns used chrome-lined barrels.
FN = Yes
DSA = No (New DSA Production)
B
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. Being only an AR shooter, I'm conditioned to gravitate towards chrome lined barrels. I've never been able to find out whether ANY of the original FN models or the DSA guns used chrome-lined barrels.
FN would build the gun to contract, so if the end user wanted chrome lined barrels, they got them, if they didn't, they didn't get them.
I will go out on a pretty strong limb here and say that ALL of the true FN and Imbel (Brazillian contract, FN licensed) 17.75" barrels I've seen have been chrome lined.
That does not mean that the new US barrels that DSA uses (usally Badger barrels I believe) are chrome lined.
DSA did have FN Herstal USA, down in South Carolina, make them some chrome lined G1 and Israeli HB barrels for them, but those are the only chrome lined ones I know of DSA offering.
Assuming this is the barrel in the 18" Para Congo http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-18-Chrome-Moly-Barrel-308-Cal/productinfo/00118HG/ then I would say NO, they are not chrome lined.
For you AR guys, here's a thought though........it's about evenly split on battle rifles that have chrome lined barrels and those that don't.
A lot of FN FAL and L1A1 barrels were hard chromed, M14's were, but HK G3's and many FAL's were not chrome lined.
They held up just fine. It's easier to clean a .30 cal barrel than it is to clean a .22 cal, and the pressures and velocity on the 7.62 NATO are not as high as the 5.56mm.
I wouldn't let the fact that the Para barrel is not chrome lined be a deal breaker for me. One of my FAL's is, one isn't, and with the price of 7.62 NATO, I'm not going to be shooting them out in my lifetime I don't think.
RAM Engineer
12-06-08, 15:28
Buck & Templar: Thanks!
As for the LOP, thats an easy fix.
Now you tell me:eek:
QuickStrike
12-07-08, 04:42
As for the LOP, thats an easy fix.
by taking off the recoil pad?
:confused:
I have a DSA Stg 58 16 inch . It has the steyr barrel and was built on a type 2 receiver. I have shot alot of south african surplus with no problems at all. It has the Clintdic Ass ban loud as hell brake on it. Shoulder felt recoil is not bad at all.
Gutshot John
12-07-08, 17:45
LOP can be slightly shortened by using an Stg stock (which comes standard on the DSA) instead of the "humpback" which is slightly longer.
If you've got the the Stg stock, I'm not sure what can be changed other than the pad.
I have a DSA G1 barrel, though I was informed by Mark Graham that he didn't think it was new production. Shoots great though. I don't think the heavy izzy barrels make for a very practical rifle unless you're going for the Izzy HB look.
I have an Argentinian FAL barrel for sale if you want a surplus chrome-lined barrel, but I wouldn't shorten it. They occasionally go out of round when shortened.
I seem to recall that the 7.62 barrels on DSA's Stg58 are chrome-lined, but it doesn't say so on the website so don't take my word for it.
I don't think you can really knock the non chrome-lined though I definitely prefer it.
Para congo without a doubt.
Another avenue you could consider is having something built. There's a firm in Arizona called Arizona Expert Arms who do some great custom work on stock FALs/parts kits. Check it out:
www.azexarms.com
Just got a call from the LGS and the DSA is in! So much for a five month wait!
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