View Full Version : Need some advice on "mouse gun"
I'd like advice from LEOs or others with experience with street perps. Yes, for personal defense. I can shoot fairly well, but I'm looking for effectiveness I can carry. I'm not a police officer, so I won't be running towards gunfire with more firepower, rather heading the other way. Used to be my slogan, "I'll show them how fast an old guy can run." Knee issues and, I used to be younger, come into play. My main question is whether a .380acp pistol can do the job. I have a .45, but it can't fit a pocket without printing, especially in Summer weight clothing in FL; also, it doesn't help that there's a 7 in front of my age. Sure, when something is happening, one would like a 16" naval rifle, but they're too heavy. So, I'm thinking of getting something smaller, which I can pocket carry without printing, that in the unfortunate extreme can stop an attacker with proper shot placement. Not looking for heroics here, if I can get away I will. But, if trapped.... I'm thinking of less recoil for a follow up shot. I'm looking at things like the Ruger LCP II, Smith Bodyguard, even a PPK. I'd appreciate any experienced comments.
I'd like advice from LEOs or others with experience with street perps. Yes, for personal defense. I can shoot fairly well, but I'm looking for effectiveness I can carry. I'm not a police officer, so I won't be running towards gunfire with more firepower, rather heading the other way. Used to be my slogan, "I'll show them how fast an old guy can run." Knee issues and, I used to be younger, come into play. My main question is whether a .380acp pistol can do the job. I have a .45, but it can't fit a pocket without printing, especially in Summer weight clothing in FL; also, it doesn't help that there's a 7 in front of my age. Sure, when something is happening, one would like a 16" naval rifle, but they're too heavy. So, I'm thinking of getting something smaller, which I can pocket carry without printing, that in the unfortunate extreme can stop an attacker with proper shot placement. Not looking for heroics here, if I can get away I will. But, if trapped.... I'm thinking of less recoil for a follow up shot. I'm looking at things like the Ruger LCP II, Smith Bodyguard, even a PPK. I'd appreciate any experienced comments.
Wear baggy pants.
Get a Sig P365. 9mm. No bigger than most .380 guns. Stuff it in the pants pocket. 10+1in the gun, 15 more in the stick magazine in the other pocket.
Problem solved.
Carry a 9mm whenever possible over 380.
There are a few options for tiny 9mm guns.
If for sone reason you cant do it, carry a 380/38spcl.
Training will matter way more than gear, first hits tend to be a huge factor in gunfights, so practice getting good hits quickly (1.5s is a decent time for deep concealment).
Have you shot any of the smaller 9mm's? Before going all the way down to a .380 I'd recommend you try a G43, G43X, M&P Shield, or P365. If that's still too much, pick something smaller caliber you shoot well and can practice with.
I'm more concerned about reliability with some of the small .380 pistols than the .380 part. I don't know if it's the gun or the people who buy them but I've seen several with problems at the range.
Once you go below 9mm or .327 you won't get enough penetration with expansion, so it's best to stick with FMJ.
I just finished packing up the Sig P238 for a comparison tomorrow with a friend's Beretta Tomcat (that he just bought). The Sig's got real sights, a decent single action trigger, and it's very pleasant to shoot. I do much better with the little Sig than is necessary, for a pocket pistol. I can't say any of these things about a friend's LCP that I've shot several times.
I've not shot a P938, but I've put enough hot handloads through the P238 to know that it would be completely controllable, and still comfortable for a full range session.
I handled a P365 around Christmas time, and I don't recall it being that much smaller than a Shield. I certainly don't consider the Shield a pocket pistol, unless pants are ridiculously baggy....never even looked into pocket holsters for it for this reason.
titsonritz
04-24-20, 21:32
BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp)
Considering the .380s are going to be small, and single stack, I’d offer up the Kahr PM9 as a rebuttal. It couldn’t be much larger than the other guns you’re looking at. Thin, light, and reliable (at least my Kahr P9 has been for 1000s of rounds).
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I'd like advice from LEOs or others with experience with street perps. Yes, for personal defense. I can shoot fairly well, but I'm looking for effectiveness I can carry. I'm not a police officer, so I won't be running towards gunfire with more firepower, rather heading the other way. Used to be my slogan, "I'll show them how fast an old guy can run." Knee issues and, I used to be younger, come into play. My main question is whether a .380acp pistol can do the job. I have a .45, but it can't fit a pocket without printing, especially in Summer weight clothing in FL; also, it doesn't help that there's a 7 in front of my age. Sure, when something is happening, one would like a 16" naval rifle, but they're too heavy. So, I'm thinking of getting something smaller, which I can pocket carry without printing, that in the unfortunate extreme can stop an attacker with proper shot placement. Not looking for heroics here, if I can get away I will. But, if trapped.... I'm thinking of less recoil for a follow up shot. I'm looking at things like the Ruger LCP II, Smith Bodyguard, even a PPK. I'd appreciate any experienced comments.
Yes, they can work, and usually will.
Being able to shoot well, as always, is very important. This takes practice. Firing small .380s is not fun. A glove helps. If you can fire 30-50 rounds every few weeks that would be preferable to firing 100 rounds in one range trip.
If something like an LCP or S&W Bodyguard is your size limit it is what it is. None of the 9mm's will be small enough for you.
If you want more horsepower and can carry something the size of a small revolver I reccomend a Ruger LCR .327 magnum. You can fire .32 short, .32 S&W Long (pleasant and fun), .32 Magnum, .327 magnum, and some brands of .32 acp from it.
It holds 6 shots vs 5 with a .38.
For an auto I recommend the Kel-Tec P32 .32. It has much less recoil than a small .380. It holds 7+1 shots (10 rd Keltec mag available) and has a last shot hold open.
That gun you will enjoy shooting. Yes the sights are small and trigger long but light.
The P32 weighs 10 oz loaded!
The only critical issue I've found with them is the mag release. It's very easy to get pressed while in your pocket.
I've had and fired a bunch of small pistols and revolvers.
I just finished packing up the Sig P238 for a comparison tomorrow with a friend's Beretta Tomcat (that he just bought)...
Sorry to hear that. I suggest he lose it. They have a poor rep but I bought one anyway. (2018) It took about 400-500 rounds to break in and get reliable but at some point the frame cracked. (Right where they always do) At around 800 rds the slide broke. (As in BROKE, not repairable)
Now the pile of parts sits in a ziplock until I find someone who wants the parts or bring it to a "gun buy" or something to recoupe what I can.
I have several Beretta's. The Tomcat is a bust. Go to the Beretta forum and check it out. Beretta MIGHT send him a new gun when the frame cracks, but only once.
I dont have faith they'll cover mine but I'll give them a call.
Among other things, I own the following.
Ruger LCP
S&W Bodyguard
Sig P365
99% of the time I carry the Bodyguard. It is extremely reliable, compact, accurate, and comfortable to carry.
Your mileage may vary.
I’d offer up the Kahr PM9 as a rebuttal.
The PM9 is not a pistol I would consider if looking for less recoil.
Revolvers. Often the same lack of hand strength that makes recoil control difficult makes a double action trigger difficult.
If the trigger isn't a problem the LCR in .327 or .22 Mag is where I would start looking at revolvers.
Phillygunguy
04-25-20, 09:39
I would stay away from .380. if you want something reliable and easy to conceal get a J frame. SW 642 or similar unless you really want a semi auto then a Glock 26 or 43
Of the long list of pocket. 380's I've tried I liked the S&W Bodyguard the most.
(Assuming one wants to carry with a round in the chamber and not be striker-fired like the LCP 2 or larger Glock 42)
It still isn't a gun you'll want to fire much though.
Yes, they can work, and usually will.
.......
If something like an LCP or S&W Bodyguard is your size limit it is what it is. None of the 9mm's will be small enough for you.
This is good advice. For several years, when off-duty, I pocket carried an LCP when the weather was hot. I was not totally comfortable with the .380, though, so I got a P365 and a Vetter pocket holster. The P365 is absolutely larger than the LCP, but a much better option when you need it and it hides well enough in most of my pants/shorts pockets.
However, I have taken to carrying it in an inside the waistband holster. On warm days, I wear two t-shirts, an inner one to keep the abrasive grips away from my bare skin and an outer one to cover the gun. This is turning out to be a great option, at least for me.
Griff
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The Ruger LCP is a great shooting gun for it's size, but I definitely prefer a larger gun.
Friends don't let friends CCW .380. That's all I have to say on the matter as it's been covered here 9,912,193,62 times here.
dirkmagurk
04-25-20, 18:13
My suggestion would be to find a range that has a wide selection of pistols in their rental inventory and try before you buy. My personnel recommendations for a "mouse gun" would be a current production SIG P365 or a S&W Shield 2.0. Both of those are in 9mm but aren't much bigger than the quality .380 pistols currently available. As for the .380 being effective, ultimately it comes down to shot placement, regardless of caliber. If you can shoot a .380 substantially better than a similar sized pistol chambered in 9mm then it might be worth considering. That being said the 9mm is a more reliable man stopper than .380.
The range had a Sig P938 in the rental pool, so that was added to the day's shooting collection.
Recoil was very easy to manage, though it did have rubber grips to help with this.
The trigger was quite good, and the sights were the same as my P238 (possibly even Tritium).
Group sizes were way better than necessary from a pocket pistol, and a fraction of the size I got from the Tomcat.
The PM9 is not a pistol I would consider if looking for less recoil.
Revolvers. Often the same lack of hand strength that makes recoil control difficult makes a double action trigger difficult.
If the trigger isn't a problem the LCR in .327 or .22 Mag is where I would start looking at revolvers.
I was under the impression that the OP mainly referred to pistol size as the problem, and seemed to point to sub-9mm in hoping to be able to conceal easier, and in order to make up for lack of power, get quicker follow up shots, not for simple recoil reduction. The Kahr was an example of a 9mm in a .380-sized package, and in my limited experience with the gun (a few range sessions with a friend), can make reasonably quick follow ups.
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While I no longer own a .380, I certainly don’t want to get shot by one and with proper placement they can be effective.
Having said that, I would recommend a 9mm or .38spl whenever possible. Pistols such as the Smith & Wesson Shield, Glock 43/43x, or a J frame centennial are accurate, easily concealed by most, and have a bit more energy behind them if needed.
Having owned a bunch of J frames I can't for the life of me see how they're concealable when talking about pocket/bug guns. Thick and take up similar space as a Glock 19!
When looking for a pocket gun I bought a SW 642 and a Ruger LCP. Recoil is about the same, LCP is smaller, much, much thinner, carries more ammo, easier to reload, more comfortable to hold and actually fits in my pocket without being obvious. Neither have me any reliability issues. Sold the S&W
Thanks very much for the insight, advice and recommendations. It sounds like the consensus is .380 lacks the power - even though we'll all agree the key is hitting the right spot. I had hoped that modern bullet design and powders would produce an effective smaller pistol. No arguing with Physics, though. The most practical solution, not involving changing over equipment, is Uni-Vibe's "wear baggy pants." This all started with my wife wanting me to wear tighter jeans. Also, I'm in between sizes - 36 slides down, 34 is too tight - no size 35. My usual "uniform" is jeans with a Columbia fishing shirt hanging outside. Lots of conceal options there - usually a 1911 commander IWB, has a officer frame so the grip doesn't print. My smaller pistol, which will fit in a pocket will print in the jeans under the right circumstances. But, that shirt outside helps that. The real issue arises when I have the shirt tucked in, with obvious results. So, the solution appears to be cargo pants (which I prefer anyway), and keep what equipment I have, saving $, because I know I'd lose money trading. Caliber? .45acp.
Thanks again, guys.
Thanks very much for the insight, advice and recommendations. It sounds like the consensus is .380 lacks the power - even though we'll all agree the key is hitting the right spot. I had hoped that modern bullet design and powders would produce an effective smaller pistol. No arguing with Physics, though. The most practical solution, not involving changing over equipment, is Uni-Vibe's "wear baggy pants." This all started with my wife wanting me to wear tighter jeans. Also, I'm in between sizes - 36 slides down, 34 is too tight - no size 35. My usual "uniform" is jeans with a Columbia fishing shirt hanging outside. Lots of conceal options there - usually a 1911 commander IWB, has a officer frame so the grip doesn't print. My smaller pistol, which will fit in a pocket will print in the jeans under the right circumstances. But, that shirt outside helps that. The real issue arises when I have the shirt tucked in, with obvious results. So, the solution appears to be cargo pants (which I prefer anyway), and keep what equipment I have, saving $, because I know I'd lose money trading. Caliber? .45acp.
Thanks again, guys.I have the same problem with jean size. What I found works is 36 with stretch waist and an IWB holster for a G19.
The real issue arises when I have the shirt tucked in, with obvious results.
There are, of course, IWB holsters which allow you to tuck in your shirt over the gun. It still requires a looser fitting shirt, but it's an option to consider.
Griff
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Mrgunsngear
04-26-20, 11:03
I'd like advice from LEOs or others with experience with street perps. Yes, for personal defense. I can shoot fairly well, but I'm looking for effectiveness I can carry. I'm not a police officer, so I won't be running towards gunfire with more firepower, rather heading the other way. Used to be my slogan, "I'll show them how fast an old guy can run." Knee issues and, I used to be younger, come into play. My main question is whether a .380acp pistol can do the job. I have a .45, but it can't fit a pocket without printing, especially in Summer weight clothing in FL; also, it doesn't help that there's a 7 in front of my age. Sure, when something is happening, one would like a 16" naval rifle, but they're too heavy. So, I'm thinking of getting something smaller, which I can pocket carry without printing, that in the unfortunate extreme can stop an attacker with proper shot placement. Not looking for heroics here, if I can get away I will. But, if trapped.... I'm thinking of less recoil for a follow up shot. I'm looking at things like the Ruger LCP II, Smith Bodyguard, even a PPK. I'd appreciate any experienced comments.
A few thoughts:
Any gun in a centerfire cartridge is better than no gun as it gives you options.
It depends "what the job is" in terms of getting it done. Do you want to fight off 4 or 5 armed attackers----if so the 380 pocket guns are sub-optimal. Do you want to defend yourself against a meth/crack head/drunk with a knife or some other deadly instrument -- it'll probably work with shot placement and smart tactics.
As to the cartridge itself; there's a lot of bad loads but some decent ones as well when fired from mouse guns. My personal favorite is anything with the XTP bullet (in 380 only) but here's how some do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1Ml5h2ECY
Mrgunsngear
04-26-20, 11:03
A "not so good" option IMO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmWpl7RonYc
Mrgunsngear
04-26-20, 11:04
Lots of data/options at the 9:57 mark and on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREj1HOUAqA
556BlackRifle
04-26-20, 11:11
The gun you have in a gunfight is the one that might save your life. If all you can carry is a .380 or 38 Special then carry it. My second gun (BUG or Back Up Gun) is an LCP 1 .380. It's my last choice / chance pistol. I prefer to carry a G19 however, I've also have a G43, P365 and Shield 2.0. I can shoot the lights out with any of them but I prefer bigger (G19 size) when possible. The key to survival is to practice with your carry piece and your BUG until it's second nature. i.e. you don't have to think about it - it just happens. Good luck!
Whenever I can, I carry a Smith M&P9.
When I can't carry M&P, i.e. summer time casual clothes, I carry a Sig P365.
When I can't carry P365, i.e. athletic activities, it's a Ruger LCP .380.
1. In most situations, a gun is a gun.
2. Any gun is better than no gun.
3. .380 is still better than .22, .25.
4. The problem with weaker calibers is lack of penetration, not expansion. Carry 95 grain FMJ.
dirkmagurk
04-26-20, 13:36
Thanks very much for the insight, advice and recommendations. It sounds like the consensus is .380 lacks the power - even though we'll all agree the key is hitting the right spot. I had hoped that modern bullet design and powders would produce an effective smaller pistol. No arguing with Physics, though. The most practical solution, not involving changing over equipment, is Uni-Vibe's "wear baggy pants." This all started with my wife wanting me to wear tighter jeans. Also, I'm in between sizes - 36 slides down, 34 is too tight - no size 35. My usual "uniform" is jeans with a Columbia fishing shirt hanging outside. Lots of conceal options there - usually a 1911 commander IWB, has a officer frame so the grip doesn't print. My smaller pistol, which will fit in a pocket will print in the jeans under the right circumstances. But, that shirt outside helps that. The real issue arises when I have the shirt tucked in, with obvious results. So, the solution appears to be cargo pants (which I prefer anyway), and keep what equipment I have, saving $, because I know I'd lose money trading. Caliber? .45acp.
Thanks again, guys.
I’m in that same pant size situation, there are companies making size 35 pants, look into KUHL and Wrangler selections specifically to see if that fits your style/needs.
El Pistolero
04-26-20, 15:17
I’m probably the only person on this board who regularly CCWs a Beretta Bobcat. The rest of you aren’t really talking mouse guns.
I’m probably the only person on this board who regularly CCWs a Beretta Bobcat. If you want to really talk mouse guns.
Jetfire .25 here, but "mostly" as a backup. It's been very reliable since break-in.
Is your Bobcat a .22 or .25? How has it ran and how many rounds?
I've had reliability problems with both. I just a got a Bobcat .25 back that has had problems. I'm going to see if it's like the others, needs a good 500 rds before it's broken in.
This Bobcat also once spat the firing pin into my eye protection after the firing pin retaining pin broke. The Bobcat has the smallest retaining pin out of all of the tip-up barrel Beretta's. In it's defense there is no telling how much it was dry-fired over the years before I got it. It was made in the late 80's if I recall. It was extremely tight because it had been fired very little, oiled none or once, and the slide had probably never been off before.
It has a shortish chamber like some other Beretta .25's I've encountered. Meaning many brands of ammo push the bullet against the rifling when chambered, so the slide won't close all the way and the cartridge gets jammed in the chamber. Have to poke it out. But I've found a few brands of ammo that do fit just fine and pass the "plunk" test. But the gun still malfunctions with it and I'm hoping it's just a matter of break-in.
I'd love to have a Beretta 20 because it uses M950 (Jetfire) mags but they don't come up for sale much. I'd take an M21A (Bobcat) because that double-action is REALLY important in a self-defense gun. It's got to be reliable first, though.
A few thoughts:
Any gun in a centerfire cartridge is better than no gun as it gives you options.
It depends "what the job is" in terms of getting it done. Do you want to fight off 4 or 5 armed attackers----if so the 380 pocket guns are sub-optimal. Do you want to defend yourself against a meth/crack head/drunk with a knife or some other deadly instrument -- it'll probably work with shot placement and smart tactics.
As to the cartridge itself; there's a lot of bad loads but some decent ones as well when fired from mouse guns. My personal favorite is anything with the XTP bullet (in 380 only) but here's how some do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1Ml5h2ECY
I chronoed Underwood 90 gr +P (Yea I know) XTP .380 from my Beretta M81FS with a .380 barrel in it.
It's the only ammo ever that had stoppages from this gun. :( Maybe because it was a hollow point or maybe something else but either way it was a no-go. FMJ runs from the barrel just fine.
It's too bad because the round averaged 1186 fps from the 3.8 inch barrel. High was 1207, extreme spread 46.
The same day Fiocchi FMJ averaged 965 fps ES 64.
Yes, it did feel abusive on the poor little Cheetah. Felt like a 9x19 from a compact single-stack.
There are, of course, IWB holsters which allow you to tuck in your shirt over the gun. It still requires a looser fitting shirt, but it's an option to consider.
Griff
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I'e tried some of those, and they all seem to print somewhat. The only one that truly concealed was a "Thunderwear" which hangs below the belt, secured around the waist with its own velcro straps. I can see potential problems with those, but nothing insurmountable with a lighter pistol. The small one I have is an AMT Backup 45, which is heavy, no, HEAVY for what it is, risking drag down of trousers if in the pocket, making carrying obvious. I always worry about the strap on the Thunderwear, and a lighter pistol would go a long way to alleviate that. Quick access still is a problem, though.
A few thoughts:
Any gun in a centerfire cartridge is better than no gun as it gives you options.
It depends "what the job is" in terms of getting it done. Do you want to fight off 4 or 5 armed attackers----if so the 380 pocket guns are sub-optimal. Do you want to defend yourself against a meth/crack head/drunk with a knife or some other deadly instrument -- it'll probably work with shot placement and smart tactics.
As to the cartridge itself; there's a lot of bad loads but some decent ones as well when fired from mouse guns. My personal favorite is anything with the XTP bullet (in 380 only) but here's how some do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1Ml5h2ECY
Thanks for those ammo tests, interesting. You raise the important point of strategy and tactics. I avoid places which are obviously, or known to be, dangerous, but that's not 100%. If I knew where I would need a gun, I wouldn't go there. Are 4-5 guys likely? No, but not impossible. I'm more interested in protection in a parking lot, for example, where one can get jumped. So, close distances, and cover. One issue of concern is the "flash mob" robbery which takes place occasionally in stores. Not my issue to protect the store, but if I'm in there when this mob of hunter-gatherers explodes, I'm at risk.
Another issue in this area - it's not a bad area - is people cruising, looking for gray hair, outside, doing yard work. They like to jump and overpower an old guy. Well, that's an easy way for them to wear a lawnmower. Yes, I carry outside at home, some people think it's silly: I don't. Push-in home invasion? I don't open without looking. And, I won't worry about ballistics power because there's a 12ga and an M4 handy. That's one of the reasons the higher power handguns aren't the same "draw", as I have other firepower. And, at home, there is a police officer living diagonally across the street, which a very large, marked Yukon in his driveway. Any miscreant just looking down the street will, if sane, move along. But, when he's not home, or a SHTF situation, I am prepared.
Anyway, your comments on situations and tactics are spot on, and being considered. It just strikes me that a number of attackers would give the advantage to a lighter caliber, obviously needing multiple shots; any caliber would require accuracy in that scenario. Since this isn't the movies, I would be taking cover, not standing there like John Wayne. In any scenario, BTW, I wouldn't be aiming for the usual center mass: my main interest would be to snap the pelvic bone, so the perp could no longer stand, and there'd be collateral issues, as well. Reality. My primary motive is not to kill, I just want to get away from violent attackers.
Thanks
El Pistolero
04-28-20, 00:33
Jetfire .25 here, but "mostly" as a backup. It's been very reliable since break-in.
Is your Bobcat a .22 or .25? How has it ran and how many rounds?
I've had reliability problems with both. I just a got a Bobcat .25 back that has had problems. I'm going to see if it's like the others, needs a good 500 rds before it's broken in.
This Bobcat also once spat the firing pin into my eye protection after the firing pin retaining pin broke. The Bobcat has the smallest retaining pin out of all of the tip-up barrel Beretta's. In it's defense there is no telling how much it was dry-fired over the years before I got it. It was made in the late 80's if I recall. It was extremely tight because it had been fired very little, oiled none or once, and the slide had probably never been off before.
It has a shortish chamber like some other Beretta .25's I've encountered. Meaning many brands of ammo push the bullet against the rifling when chambered, so the slide won't close all the way and the cartridge gets jammed in the chamber. Have to poke it out. But I've found a few brands of ammo that do fit just fine and pass the "plunk" test. But the gun still malfunctions with it and I'm hoping it's just a matter of break-in.
I'd love to have a Beretta 20 because it uses M950 (Jetfire) mags but they don't come up for sale much. I'd take an M21A (Bobcat) because that double-action is REALLY important in a self-defense gun. It's got to be reliable first, though.
The Bobcat is reliable with CCI Mini Mags and a couple other loads but my choice of CCW ammo is the CCI Velocitor. It’s a hyper velocity bullet (1400+ FPS) but unlike others in its velocity range I feel the slightly slower 40-grain bullet creates a longer recoil impulse which helps with cycling the little Beretta. The chamber, fees ramp, and breech face are all polished and if I’m at the range I run a bore snake through after every single magazine fired to keep the chamber clean for extraction. I can shoot about 100 rounds this way before having problems with extraction of empties. The trigger is excellent for this type of gun and I routinely practice drawing from concealment and making headshots at 10 yards with the double action first shot. Being able to shoot it so well gives me a confidence that makes up for its tiny caliber. As a bonus it’s sooo concealable that you can ALWAYS carry it with you no matter what.
The Bobcat is reliable with CCI Mini Mags and a couple other loads but my choice of CCW ammo is the CCI Velocitor. It’s a hyper velocity bullet (1400+ FPS) but unlike others in its velocity range I feel the slightly slower 40-grain bullet creates a longer recoil impulse which helps with cycling the little Beretta. The chamber, fees ramp, and breech face are all polished and if I’m at the range I run a bore snake through after every single magazine fired to keep the chamber clean for extraction. I can shoot about 100 rounds this way before having problems with extraction of empties. The trigger is excellent for this type of gun and I routinely practice drawing from concealment and making headshots at 10 yards with the double action first shot. Being able to shoot it so well gives me a confidence that makes up for its tiny caliber. As a bonus it’s sooo concealable that you can ALWAYS carry it with you no matter what.
Good I'm glad it's been reliable for you.
Out of curiosity I looked up the velocity of the Velositer from short barrels and it gets about 950 fps from as 4 inch, 825 from a two inch and 750 from the little NAA mini revolvers 1.5 inch.
Here is the link to a 2.4 inch test:
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2011/3/15/22-lr-cci-velocitor-24-inch-barrel/
You might want to compare the Velocitor to the Mini-Mag to see if it's worth the extra money the Velositors cost. Neither is going to expand but most will turn base-forward.
I'd go newP365 or Hellcat. Anything can be effective (380) but I'd go 9 in one of the new mini 9 flavors if I wanted something that size. You are getting a gun thats about the same size as popular 380s with twice the capacity in a P365 or Hellcat. The benefit besides twice the capacity is a bullet that has been here for over 100 years and is still getting all the R&D from ammo companies. Either fits in your pocket and can easily get someone off of you. They are both plenty accurate and if you are buying new, reliable. The p365 has less snap to it, the hellcat has a standoff that apparently keeps it locked when you shove it into someone. Read up on the issues with the early 365s but it seems fixed with the new ones, hence the buy new.
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