View Full Version : Waffen SS post WWII
Several interesting points.
One of which being as bad as Nazi's sucked, communism was viewed as even worse by people who experienced both.
https://youtu.be/_qcEFnGeZ6A
Lauri Allan Törni is a perfect example of these feelings.
From German Waffen SS to American Green Beret
https://www.historynet.com/from-german-waffen-ss-to-american-green-beret.htm
The fierce anti-communism of Finland’s Larry Thorne put him on different sides in two wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
Lauri Allan Törni (28 May 1919 – 18 October 1965), later known as Larry Alan Thorne, was a Finnish soldier who fought under three flags: as a Finnish Army Second Lieutenant of the Fourth Independent Jäger Infantry Battalion against the Soviets in the Winter War and the Soviet-Finnish sub-theater of World War II known as the Continuation War; as a German Army Captain (under the alias Larry Lane) of the Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the Waffen-SS when he fought the Soviets on the Eastern Front in World War II; and as a United States Army Captain (under the alias "Larry Thorne") when he served in the U.S. Army Special Forces in the Vietnam War.
Not featuring the SS bois, but an interesting tale worth reading about how we screwed over countries we allowed the soviets to "liberate" and the subsequent horribleness the commies got up to taking them over is a book called "Forest Brothers". It covers the partisan resistance in Lithuania.
However, there is some interesting mentions in the book of a number of german soldiers choosing to stay behind with the partisans to fight the soviets, instead of retreating back to germany with the rest of the army. There are also some interesting comments to the effect of, while the Lithuanians weren't exactly happy about being invaded and occupied by anyone, "at least the germans were clean". :laugh:
https://www.amazon.com/Forest-Brothers-Anti-soviet-Lithuanian-1944-1948/dp/9639776580
It's also interesting to note that, immediately post- WW1, if you dig into that chaos and the Freikorps and such, germany was actually looking to have an alliance with the White Russians (czarist). Then, along with other events, the Bolsheviks took over and pretty much smashed that potential outcome.
It's interesting, once you dig into the ignored or forgotten background of things, how much of it tends to subvert the 'official narrative' as to 'why' things happened a certain way, in regards to Germany's actions during this time frame.
Of course, it's also that way with other countries as well. Although I do find it interesting that to this day, almost ALL documentaries about this time seem to start with the "suddenly for no reason Germany attacked Poland" or "suddenly for no reason Japan attacked the US". The "this man is your friend" propaganda regarding the Soviets during the war and after is apparently also still in full swing.
If anyone ever needed proof that the victors write the history books...
There was a book called "The Devil's Guard" written (IIRC) in the 1960's about some ex-Waffen SS soldiers fighting for the French in then-Indochina. Not a bad read. There still exists some debate as to whether it was fiction, fact, or somewhere in between.
Dr. Bullseye
05-01-20, 12:33
Lauri Allan Törni is a perfect example of these feelings.
From German Waffen SS to American Green Beret
https://www.historynet.com/from-german-waffen-ss-to-american-green-beret.htm
The fierce anti-communism of Finland’s Larry Thorne put him on different sides in two wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
Lauri Allan Törni (28 May 1919 – 18 October 1965), later known as Larry Alan Thorne, was a Finnish soldier who fought under three flags: as a Finnish Army Second Lieutenant of the Fourth Independent Jäger Infantry Battalion against the Soviets in the Winter War and the Soviet-Finnish sub-theater of World War II known as the Continuation War; as a German Army Captain (under the alias Larry Lane) of the Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the Waffen-SS when he fought the Soviets on the Eastern Front in World War II; and as a United States Army Captain (under the alias "Larry Thorne") when he served in the U.S. Army Special Forces in the Vietnam War.
Excellent post mack7.62
Lauri Allan Törni is a perfect example of these feelings.
From German Waffen SS to American Green Beret
https://www.historynet.com/from-german-waffen-ss-to-american-green-beret.htm
The fierce anti-communism of Finland’s Larry Thorne put him on different sides in two wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
Lauri Allan Törni (28 May 1919 – 18 October 1965), later known as Larry Alan Thorne, was a Finnish soldier who fought under three flags: as a Finnish Army Second Lieutenant of the Fourth Independent Jäger Infantry Battalion against the Soviets in the Winter War and the Soviet-Finnish sub-theater of World War II known as the Continuation War; as a German Army Captain (under the alias Larry Lane) of the Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the Waffen-SS when he fought the Soviets on the Eastern Front in World War II; and as a United States Army Captain (under the alias "Larry Thorne") when he served in the U.S. Army Special Forces in the Vietnam War.
At the end of the day he was a Finn who loathed the Soviets (as most Finns do). We were fortunate he chose to land here.
just a scout
05-01-20, 13:58
Not all the Waffen SS were true believers, they just went to the most professional unit they could bei cause they were that kind of soldier. I had a relative, dead now, who was in the Waffen SS. He hated Nazis and Hitler just a little less than he hated Communists. He was working for the BND up till he retired.
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One of which being as bad as Nazi's sucked, communism was viewed as even worse by people who experienced both.
Unless you were a Jew. I may be wrong but I don't think the Soviets treated Jews as badly as the Nazi's did. I mean hell, Hitler tried to exterminate them.
Unless you were a Jew. I may be wrong but I don't think the Soviets treated Jews as badly as the Nazi's did. I mean hell, Hitler tried to exterminate them.
True along with a few other various groups.
I should have included the caveat that the better perceived deal only applied if the person wasn't a member of whatever group the Nazis were pissed at on any given day.
True along with a few other various groups.
I should have included the caveat that the better perceived deal only applied if the person wasn't a member of whatever group the Nazis were pissed at on any given day.
I always felt torn on who to "root for" with regards to the Eastern Front in Europe. They both sucked and too bad they couldn't have killed each other totally off.
MountainRaven
05-01-20, 17:40
Not all the Waffen SS were true believers, they just went to the most professional unit they could bei cause they were that kind of soldier. I had a relative, dead now, who was in the Waffen SS. He hated Nazis and Hitler just a little less than he hated Communists. He was working for the BND up till he retired.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
His hatred must have been in hindsight: The Waffen SS was literally the paramilitary branch of the Nazi party. The Waffen SS was no more or less professional than the Wehrmacht... and oftentimes way, way less.
And, yeah, history is written by the victors. And some of those victors don’t want it remembered that they were pulling for the Nazis, antisemitism and all.
I've read many books on the war in Vietnam immediately following WWII. Many Germans enlisted in the French Foreign Legion, many from the Waffen SS. The Legion didn't seem to care.
I've also read books that told how many of them ended up in Central and South America, many playing roles in the many wars in the region up into the 1960's. Of course then there were the wars in the middle east and Africa.
It was interesting to me that with Hitlers hatred and many peoples that he seemed to have an affinity for Muslims, maybe because he saw them as enemies of the Jews?
Belmont31R
05-01-20, 18:35
I always felt torn on who to "root for" with regards to the Eastern Front in Europe. They both sucked and too bad they couldn't have killed each other totally off.
Part of Hitler's rise to power was a fear of communists. Some of the politicians and political groups he and his side faced off in the early movement period of the Nazis were communists. There was a real chance they would have taken over Germany if the Nazis hadn't beat them to the punch. Things were so bad post WW1 a radical group was likely to take over one way or another just to do something different than they were.
They obviously both suck as political movements but commies got their run in Germany anyways which is ironic.
I've read many books on the war in Vietnam immediately following WWII. Many Germans enlisted in the French Foreign Legion, many from the Waffen SS. The Legion didn't seem to care.
I've also read books that told how many of them ended up in Central and South America, many playing roles in the many wars in the region up into the 1960's. Of course then there were the wars in the middle east and Africa.
It was interesting to me that with Hitlers hatred and many peoples that he seemed to have an affinity for Muslims, maybe because he saw them as enemies of the Jews?
His racial ideology was often a matter of convenience.
He considered Japanese "honorary aryans", which is funny given that they had more in common culturally with the original Tibetan "aryans" than any european. He also considered the english to be of the same aryan blood as any German but that didn't prevent him from bombing them and waging war against them.
If Hitler really and truly subscribed to his racial ideologies, he'd have come to the conclusion that as aryans themselves, England would fight to the death...and ferociously. So it's clear he didn't have absolute belief in his own racial theories.
Of course the entire concept of European aryanism is a hodge podge of nordic religion and the reinterpretation of Tibetan religion by a Russian mystic, namely Madame Blavastsky. Of course we have to also factor in that Hitler was a troubled individual with a complete set of emotional baggage and he was hardly the brilliant world leader who was implementing and executing a coherent plan. He was erratic and the only reason he succeeded at Munich is he was ready to burn the world down and everyone else was trying to prevent that.
Business_Casual
05-01-20, 20:14
It is important to point out that Nazi means National Socialist German Workers Party.
Do not make excuses for them, period.
Lastly, Herr Hitler is said to be “far right” because he was to the right of Stalin. Not near the center and certainly not over it. Fascist means bundle of sticks. One can be broken but the bundle cannot, is the thinking. Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.
Horrible people, horrible ideas.
The SS did have some pretty sharp uniforms, though :D
It is important to point out that Nazi means National Socialist German Workers Party.
Do not make excuses for them, period.
Lastly, Herr Hitler is said to be “far right” because he was to the right of Stalin. Not near the center and certainly not over it. Fascist means bundle of sticks. One can be broken but the bundle cannot, is the thinking. Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.
Horrible people, horrible ideas.
Far Left, far Right.....it actually ends up being a circle. Where they meet is totalitarianism. We are almost directly across from those two in the circle.
Diamondback
05-01-20, 21:47
The SS did have some pretty sharp uniforms, though :D
Which is why I won't do business with Hugo Boss, their designer.
His hatred must have been in hindsight: The Waffen SS was literally the paramilitary branch of the Nazi party. The Waffen SS was no more or less professional than the Wehrmacht... and oftentimes way, way less.
And, yeah, history is written by the victors. And some of those victors don’t want it remembered that they were pulling for the Nazis, antisemitism and all.
I think if you are Finnish and the Russians show up and kill a bunch of your neighbors and loved ones and the Germans mention they have a group that is killing Russians, it's easy to understand why people might get onboard. Hell there was even a French division of the Waffen SS and the French had an established history of not being crazy about the Germans or the things Germans did in the past.
Also I think it's important that what we know the nazi's did NOW is different from what we knew about the Nazi's in 1943, 1944 or 1945. Even Churchill was skeptical about the first reports of concentration camps and mass exterminations and believed it was Russian propaganda, and Churchill wasn't exactly a fan of the Germans at the time. I doubt anyone in Finland knew anything about the Germans or the SS in particular other than the fact that they were now killing Russians.
Finland didn't really get the same Einsatzgruppen experience that Poland and other countries received. Now Poland, they had a realistic understanding of the Germans and the SS in particular. And that is probably why there was never a Polish division of the Waffen SS even though there were Ukrainian, Latvian and Russian division of the Waffen SS.
Which is why I won't do business with Hugo Boss, their designer.
Thank you for knowing that.
But I'm not sure Hugo Boss today is responsible for what Hugo Boss did then. Also if you are going to avoid doing business with those who supported nazi Germany then here is a partial list.
Bayer
Ford
Mercedes
Porsche
Mauser
SIG Sauer (JP Sauer)
Steyr
Volkswagen
Ufa films
The Kennedy's
BMW
IBM
NASA
Coca Cola / Fanta
The Associated Press
Kodak
Krupp
Siemens
BASF
Nestle
Standard Oil
Chase Bank
Audi
Barclays Bank
Pretty Much Every Bank in Switzerland
Fanta's 75th Anniversary original formula commercial. Takes you back to the good old days. :eek:
Fanta's 75th Anniversary original formula commercial. Takes you back to the good old days. :eek:
While funny, I think they reached with that one. I think they meant the good old days when you could buy original formula soda, sort of how we get nostalgic with sodas with actual sugar. I'm pretty sure they didn't mean the good old days when everyone was goose stepping in Munich, just as we don't mean the good old days when nuclear annihilation might happen at any moment.
I know the Germans have to be extra careful, double super cautious with their "olden day" references because it's hard to say "oopsie...that was a bad idea" with respect to industrial genocide but at some level you have to come to "we don't forget...but we are moving on."
Also I think Mercedes, BMW and Porsche were much deeper into supporting the nazi war machine than Fanta, and seems few people have problems driving their cars.
MountainRaven
05-02-20, 11:58
I would probably rather have original formula Fanta than a Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche, actually.
Unless you were a Jew. I may be wrong but I don't think the Soviets treated Jews as badly as the Nazi's did. I mean hell, Hitler tried to exterminate them.
Exactly. F the Nazis, F the commies. Bad is bad. They were both totalitarian regimes. There is no sugar coating either.
Larry Vickers
05-02-20, 13:22
I would probably rather have original formula Fanta than a Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche, actually.
Spoken like someone who has never owned a Porsche.....
TheAlsatian
05-02-20, 14:57
Spoken like someone who has never owned a Porsche.....
I own one, and have owned them since the 70s..beats Fanta any day..
MountainRaven
05-02-20, 17:26
I have a buddy who has a Porsche SUV. Apart from going fast down the street, it doesn’t do anything my Lexus doesn’t do better, more reliably, less expensively, and with greater comfort.
And I have no interest in Porsche’s cars for the same reason I have no interest in ever owning a supercar or a hypercar: Ground clearance, Montana roads, and snow.
Maybe when I can buy a hobby ranch as a winter home, I’ll look at Porsches again. But until then... I’ll take an OG Fanta, thanks.
I own one, and have owned them since the 70s..beats Fanta any day..
In the late 80s we had a couple mid-70s Porsches. Awesome cars, as fast as they were they were built like tanks. My mom's 79 (I think) Mercedes 200 SEL was the same way.
In 1999, Dr. Ferdinand Porsche was named "Car Engineer of the Century" from a list of highly capable designers. People who knock the gooddoctor frequently mentionsome of the following (from Wiki):
"In 1937, Porsche joined the National Socialist German Workers' Party(becoming member no. 5,643,287) as well as the SS. By 1938, Porsche was using the SS as security members and drivers at his factory, and later set up a special unit called SS Sturmwerk Volkswagen. In 1942, Porsche reached the rank of SS-Oberführer.] During the war, Porsche was further decorated with the SS-Ehrenring and awarded the War Merit Cross. As the war progressed his proposed solutions to new developments became more complex and Ferdinand Porsche gained a reputation in certain circles as a "mad scientist" especially with Albert Speer (mainly due to his new found affinity for "pointy" designs)."
The US made it to the moon with the primary help of German scientists, so I was never one to throw stones. In some cases you have to take the good with the bad.
ramairthree
05-02-20, 20:20
This is going to sound horrible.
But the average German thought of Jews then as scumbags, activists, rabble rousers, greedy, etc.
They thought they were getting their comeuppance and being taken to internment camps, being deported, etc.
So what if they were rounding up Harvey Weinstein, Bernie Madoff, Noam Chomsky, and Roman Polanski?
The average German civilian or military guy had no idea what was up.
Even here in 2020 you could find support to round up and deport Somalis, Muslims, illegal Latin Amercians, etc.
But not to exterminate, torture, experiment on, etc.
If instead of being in America, rural and ignorant as a Gen Xer,
And I had been a rural, ignorant German born 30 years earlier,
I would have naively done my duty and ended up a Fallschirmjäger, Brandenburger, or Jäger Bn guy, proud to be in a unit with a such bad assed, scarred up legendary giant of a Commander.
We have assay now the majority of the Germans then did not.
Business_Casual
05-02-20, 21:02
If memory serves, the Ferdinand and the Porsche Tiger entry were both hybrid drive - petrol engines driving electric generation for the motors that moved the vehicle. Just a bit of history.
The US made it to the moon with the primary help of German scientists, so I was never one to throw stones. In some cases you have to take the good with the bad.
I think it would be more correct to say Werner Von Braun finally made it to the moon with the help of the US. Not saying he was a great guy, didn't use slave labor or any of that stuff...he absolutely used any and every means made available to him to achieve his dream of going to the moon even if it meant building V2s for Hitler. But I don't think we'd have gotten to the moon without him and the Russians were literally weeks behind us in the effort. The only thing that would have been in question is if the Russians would have been able to bring their guys back from the moon.
Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW are excellent automobiles despite their tainted history with the Nazis. The MP40, mg34, mg42, stg44, and many other beautiful firearms also have this history. I see no point in virtue signaling by withholding ownership of these (or any other) items.
Exactly. F the Nazis, F the commies. Bad is bad. They were both totalitarian regimes. There is no sugar coating either.
I agree that statism is statism, but do you really view Ukranians who joined the Galizische Nr. 1 (12th Waffen SS) in the belief that they were helping to liberate Ukraine from Stalin in the same light as the Allgemeine SS or other German branches of the SS?
I know there were lots of instances where Ukrainians, and not necessarily those who joined anything, were more than happy to help the Germans find and round up jews and other "undersirables" and I think everyone agrees that they were willing participants in genocide, but the guy who joined the 14th division is unlikely going to be included regarding secret plans for the final solution and many probably did think they were fighting for Ukrainian independence. Might be naive as hell but there was a lot of that going on at the time because most people couldn't even conceive what the Germans actually had planned, except of course for Poland because again it was pretty obvious pretty fast that nothing good was going to happen there.
Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW are excellent automobiles despite their tainted history with the Nazis. The MP40, mg34, mg42, stg44, and many other beautiful firearms also have this history. I see no point in virtue signaling by withholding ownership of these (or any other) items.
There is also the fact that surplus K98s, complete with waffenampts played a key role in the war for Palestine. That had to be a giant truckload of irony but that is what was available at the time and probably the most pragmatic thing to do.
I understand that people who are a survivor of that period of history might prefer to never lay eyes on German military hardware ever again but I bet more than a few still participated with K98 in hand in the Palestinian war.
Also pretty sure Mercedes, BMW and Porsche have been paying war reparations for some time, unlike Swiss banks who seem to have waited until everyone died to even consider the subject.
I really dislike this whitewashing, nazi-sympathizing BS which has started in the last 10-20 years around the world and still going including this site by some members. This coincides with most veterans and witnesses of WWII passing away unfortunately.
For the record, communism/socialism and fascism are not connected or cased one another in any way except being movements in history around the same time. History of communism/socialism, is fairly complex and goes well before the Russian revolution of 1917. This is just as any other system including capitalism, colonialism, feudalism, monarchism, parliamentary system, and etc.
Fascism is plain and simple racism in its most despicable form (just like a slavery). SS forces were the worst scum of the earth at that time. Even a lot of german regular military disliked them. They typically were the most fanatical, least educated, lowest class citizens in German society at that time. Joining SS were viewed as a social and career ladder for most people who were opportunists. And they were willfully joining this branch unlike other mil. branches (not to say other Nazi forces were any better).
Hitler and Germany did not attack Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Norway, France, or Britain before the Soviet Union to fight Communism. In fact, German propaganda at that time was advertising "Bolshevism" as the main enemy. I can guarantee you that most german population did not know what it was just as Americans don't.
Nazis lost - period. They should have:
- First: repent and ask for forgiveness for the atrocities they've committed and serve prison sentences according to their crimes. Fun fact - very few actually did.
- second: thank winning nations for keeping their lives and shut the F up.
Asking their opinion of communism and giving their viewpoint any credibility is like asking Osama Bin Laden who did he like better in Afghanistan - Taliban or the U.S. forces.
Saying that U.S. was in a desperate need of any of the german/nazi technology or engineers to achieve something is absolutely untrue and really diminishes the achievements of U.S. scientists, engineers, companies, and whole industries.
U.S. and Britain before the WWII were a leading manufacturing and scientific centers. Sure, Germany might have had some technology which U.S. did not prioritize to develop. There was absolutely no justifiable need for U.S. to bring any of the germans (especially associated with the nazi regime) to work on any of the programs regardless of political situation (vs. Soviet Union), because any such tech could have been developed with domestic effort in reasonable time.
The SS did have some pretty sharp uniforms, though :DHugo Boss. Not kidding
Thank you for knowing that.
But I'm not sure Hugo Boss today is responsible for what Hugo Boss did then. Also if you are going to avoid doing business with those who supported nazi Germany then here is a partial list.
Bayer
Ford
Mercedes
Porsche
Mauser
SIG Sauer (JP Sauer)
Steyr
Volkswagen
Ufa films
The Kennedy's
BMW
IBM
NASA
Coca Cola / Fanta
The Associated Press
Kodak
Krupp
Siemens
BASF
Nestle
Standard Oil
Chase Bank
Audi
Barclays Bank
Pretty Much Every Bank in SwitzerlandLooks like you've been talking to my dad.
We rented a Ford once, if that counts. He won't even look at a Volvo or a Saab, nor have anything Seamen's.
Although today a lot of this doesn't matter. Names remain but only for buyer familiarity. Ownerships have changed over and over
I really dislike this whitewashing, nazi-sympathizing BS which has started in the last 10-20 years around the world and still going including this site by some members. This coincides with most veterans and witnesses of WWII passing away unfortunately.
For the record, communism/socialism and fascism are not connected or cased one another in any way except being movements in history around the same time. History of communism/socialism, is fairly complex and goes well before the Russian revolution of 1917. This is just as any other system including capitalism, colonialism, feudalism, monarchism, parliamentary system, and etc.
Fascism is plain and simple racism in its most despicable form (just like a slavery). SS forces were the worst scum of the earth at that time. Even a lot of german regular military disliked them. They typically were the most fanatical, least educated, lowest class citizens in German society at that time. Joining SS were viewed as a social and career ladder for most people who were opportunists. And they were willfully joining this branch unlike other mil. branches (not to say other Nazi forces were any better).
Hitler and Germany did not attack Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Norway, France, or Britain before the Soviet Union to fight Communism. In fact, German propaganda at that time was advertising "Bolshevism" as the main enemy. I can guarantee you that most german population did not know what it was just as Americans don't.
Nazis lost - period. They should have:
- First: repent and ask for forgiveness for the atrocities they've committed and serve prison sentences according to their crimes. Fun fact - very few actually did.
- second: thank winning nations for keeping their lives and shut the F up.
Asking their opinion of communism and giving their viewpoint any credibility is like asking Osama Bin Laden who did he like better in Afghanistan - Taliban or the U.S. forces.
Saying that U.S. was in a desperate need of any of the german/nazi technology or engineers to achieve something is absolutely untrue and really diminishes the achievements of U.S. scientists, engineers, companies, and whole industries.
U.S. and Britain before the WWII were a leading manufacturing and scientific centers. Sure, Germany might have had some technology which U.S. did not prioritize to develop. There was absolutely no justifiable need for U.S. to bring any of the germans (especially associated with the nazi regime) to work on any of the programs regardless of political situation (vs. Soviet Union), because any such tech could have been developed with domestic effort in reasonable time.
We needed nazi engineers to get us to the moon just like we needed German physicists like Einstein to build the bomb. The Germans were just way ahead of the curve when it came to jets, rockets and shit like that. Rather than building wunderweapons that really didn't change the outcome of the war, we were building things that would help us land at Normandy and get us to Berlin and end the war. Shermans might have sucked against Panthers, but we had lots and lots and lots of them. Hitlers tanks failed at the Bulge because they actually ran out of gas.
Also please don't mistake objectiveness for overlooking what they were and were not. I don't think it's even a discussion what the Germans did and that it was probably the greatest atrocity in human history. Probably more humans died in 1945 than any other year in human history and a big part of that was production line murder perfected by the Germans.
And the Japanese matched them with complete indifference to human life. Unit 731 engaged in shit that would have made the Germans blanche, but nowhere near the same scale. Also most of those Japanese also went unpunished. One of the greatest travesties of the war is we gave nearly everyone involved in Unit 731 complete immunity in exchange for their medical data regarding biological weapons use.
Of course we did a lot of appalling things, don't ask where Germany got it's Eugenics program. It was born in the UK and proudly implemented in the US long before Germany heard about it. There's lot's of blame and plenty to go around.
We began the war because Poland was invaded, we concluded the war with a Poland occupied by the Soviet Union who helped Hitler invade it in 1939 with a non aggression pact where it was understood Germany would come from the west and two weeks later Russia would invade from the east and they would stop at previously agreed upon borders.
Looks like you've been talking to my dad.
We rented a Ford once, if that counts. He won't even look at a Volvo or a Saab, nor have anything Seamen's.
Although today a lot of this doesn't matter. Names remain but only for buyer familiarity. Ownerships have changed over and over
I still think Swiss banks were the worst. That is where Hitler deposited all of the confiscated wealth. After the war if you were a relative of somebody who had everything taken you had to prove:
1. One that they were dead. Auschwitz wasn't famous for issuing death certificates to next of kin. Mass graves on the other hand were common all over the place.
2. You had to prove you were the legal next of kin. Surprisingly not a lot of people drew up wills and named next of kin because they didn't know what was going to happen to them and when they did, it was really too late. The German state would have simply invalidated the claim anyway so nearly ever case was after the fact.
Switzerland held off for decades the entire discussion, partly because they claimed many of the records were in the DDR and therefore not accessible. It really wasn't until the 1990s that they even began the process of accepting claims so they could investigate their validity...and by then most of the remaining claimants were also gone or had given up.
Larry Vickers
05-03-20, 06:10
Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW are excellent automobiles despite their tainted history with the Nazis. The MP40, mg34, mg42, stg44, and many other beautiful firearms also have this history. I see no point in virtue signaling by withholding ownership of these (or any other) items.
Thanks for saying this
I still think Swiss banks were the worst. That is where Hitler deposited all of the confiscated wealth. After the war if you were a relative of somebody who had everything taken you had to prove:
1. One that they were dead. Auschwitz wasn't famous for issuing death certificates to next of kin. Mass graves on the other hand were common all over the place.
2. You had to prove you were the legal next of kin. Surprisingly not a lot of people drew up wills and named next of kin because they didn't know what was going to happen to them and when they did, it was really too late. The German state would have simply invalidated the claim anyway so nearly ever case was after the fact.
Switzerland held off for decades the entire discussion, partly because they claimed many of the records were in the DDR and therefore not accessible. It really wasn't until the 1990s that they even began the process of accepting claims so they could investigate their validity...and by then most of the remaining claimants were also gone or had given up.
Funny how we bombed the shit out of Switzerland by "mistake" a few times, I am sure the fact they kept shooting down US planes that strayed into their air space had nothing to do with it.
Funny how we bombed the shit out of Switzerland by "mistake" a few times, I am sure the fact they kept shooting down US planes that strayed into their air space had nothing to do with it.
I just learned something. Thank you.
COZ ZINZKI
05-03-20, 12:31
The 95th Infantry battling with tank units 371th ... along with 90th infantry fought together through France. ( Lorraine Campaign) In order to win the battle of Metz ...95th had to take Fort Jeane d'Arc & Fort Driant. A lot of those Kraut units were Waffen SS .
Machine gun units were held up in those two forts comprised mainly of SS top gunners.
My Dad was in the 95th infantry at that Metz battle. Patton drove ambition to the GI's with the prase , " Make the other Son of a Bitch die for his country...Make this one count, I only buy real estate ...ONCE.
Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW are excellent automobiles despite their tainted history with the Nazis. The MP40, mg34, mg42, stg44, and many other beautiful firearms also have this history. I see no point in virtue signaling by withholding ownership of these (or any other) items.
Exactly, nobody associated with these companies today had anything to do with what was done, so buy whatever fits your needs.
https://i.imgur.com/2nZbRDR.jpg
He won't even look at a Volvo or a Saab, nor have anything Seamen's.
Care to enlighten me/us as to why? Sweden was neutral in the war (and did business with both sides).
Fascism is plain and simple racism in its most despicable form (just like a slavery). SS forces were the worst scum of the earth at that time. Even a lot of german regular military disliked them. They typically were the most fanatical, least educated, lowest class citizens in German society at that time. Joining SS were viewed as a social and career ladder for most people who were opportunists. And they were willfully joining this branch unlike other mil. branches (not to say other Nazi forces were any better).
I think you need to look up and learn what fascism is. Fascism is not racism in its most despicable form. While racism is often a component of the fascist systems one finds in history, it need not be. A system can be fascist without being racist.
Also, looking at the second half of the war, the Waffen-SS pulled from the conscription pool the same as the Wehrmacht did. Very few people joined the Waffen-SS in the later years of the war through devotion to the cause -- they were conscripted. That is historical fact. You can read about it on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Now, the beginnings of the SS and Waffen-SS were volunteer based.
A good friend of mine's dad was in the Waffen-SS. He was ethnically German from an area later part of Yugoslavia, and had moved to Austria IIRC, and was conscripted towards the end of the war into the Waffen-SS. He had no choice in the matter. He had no love for Nazis, Hitler, etc. He happened to have been born ethnically German and ended up being conscripted.
Hitler and Germany did not attack Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Norway, France, or Britain before the Soviet Union to fight Communism. In fact, German propaganda at that time was advertising "Bolshevism" as the main enemy. I can guarantee you that most german population did not know what it was just as Americans don't.
And seemingly you don't either. Since, in common language, Bolshevists and Communists are one and the same or at least a subset of the other. And people back then did know what Bolshevism was -- at least in Europe they did. And Hitler and the Nazis Propaganda broadcast far and wide their hatred for and blame on the "Jewish Bolshevists". That was one of their public excuses to fan the flames of nationalism and get people behind them.
I really dislike this whitewashing, nazi-sympathizing BS which has started in the last 10-20 years around the world and still going including this site by some members. This coincides with most veterans and witnesses of WWII passing away unfortunately.
For the record, communism/socialism and fascism are not connected or cased one another in any way except being movements in history around the same time. History of communism/socialism, is fairly complex and goes well before the Russian revolution of 1917. This is just as any other system including capitalism, colonialism, feudalism, monarchism, parliamentary system, and etc.
Fascism is plain and simple racism in its most despicable form (just like a slavery). SS forces were the worst scum of the earth at that time. Even a lot of german regular military disliked them. They typically were the most fanatical, least educated, lowest class citizens in German society at that time. Joining SS were viewed as a social and career ladder for most people who were opportunists. And they were willfully joining this branch unlike other mil. branches (not to say other Nazi forces were any better).
Hitler and Germany did not attack Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Norway, France, or Britain before the Soviet Union to fight Communism. In fact, German propaganda at that time was advertising "Bolshevism" as the main enemy. I can guarantee you that most german population did not know what it was just as Americans don't.
Nazis lost - period. They should have:
- First: repent and ask for forgiveness for the atrocities they've committed and serve prison sentences according to their crimes. Fun fact - very few actually did.
- second: thank winning nations for keeping their lives and shut the F up.
Asking their opinion of communism and giving their viewpoint any credibility is like asking Osama Bin Laden who did he like better in Afghanistan - Taliban or the U.S. forces.
Saying that U.S. was in a desperate need of any of the german/nazi technology or engineers to achieve something is absolutely untrue and really diminishes the achievements of U.S. scientists, engineers, companies, and whole industries.
U.S. and Britain before the WWII were a leading manufacturing and scientific centers. Sure, Germany might have had some technology which U.S. did not prioritize to develop. There was absolutely no justifiable need for U.S. to bring any of the germans (especially associated with the nazi regime) to work on any of the programs regardless of political situation (vs. Soviet Union), because any such tech could have been developed with domestic effort in reasonable time.
The part in bold underling is very incorrect. This isn't about white washing German atrocities, this is about having an IRBM and ICBM as quickly as possible coupled to satellite launch capability. Time was absolutely a factor--manned flight and Apollo came later. We might have had the ability to play catch up and compete in the space race without Wernher, but no way did we get Redstone and Jupiter off the ground without him in the time frame we were working with.
I don't disagree with some of the other parts of your post, but you definitely need to get facts straight when dumping so much opinion. If you have sources to contradict the following (and I can make this list much longer), by all means post them up. I looked just to see what you could have possibly been referencing and I could not find anything credible or even semi-fringe worthy of making the claim you made. Even the damning articles recognize we needed him.
https://time.com/5627637/nasa-nazi-von-braun/
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/history/mercury-redstone.html
https://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/early.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter-C
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGM-19_Jupiter
http://www.astronautix.com/j/jupiterirbm.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/2013521386874374.html
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3101379?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Von Braun, Wernher. “The Redstone, Jupiter, and Juno.” Technology and Culture, vol. 4, no. 4, 1963, pp. 452–465. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/3101379. Accessed 3 May 2020.
both
It comes down to where you're from. My dad's side were Soviet partisans. His father smuggled weapons. My dad's cousin, who's the oldest of all the cousins, and there's like 30 of them, lost both his parents in one battle.
So the mentality is/was, if you're not with is you're against us!
No German cars, and very few German products overall. He won't care if it turned out his socks were made in Gemrmy but he's not going to buy a Das Avto
ramairthree
05-03-20, 19:48
I really dislike this whitewashing, nazi-sympathizing BS which has started in the last 10-20 years around the world and still going including this site by some members. This coincides with most veterans and witnesses of WWII passing away unfortunately.
For the record, communism/socialism and fascism are not connected or cased one another in any way except being movements in history around the same time. History of communism/socialism, is fairly complex and goes well before the Russian revolution of 1917. This is just as any other system including capitalism, colonialism, feudalism, monarchism, parliamentary system, and etc.
Fascism is plain and simple racism in its most despicable form (just like a slavery). SS forces were the worst scum of the earth at that time. Even a lot of german regular military disliked them. They typically were the most fanatical, least educated, lowest class citizens in German society at that time. Joining SS were viewed as a social and career ladder for most people who were opportunists. And they were willfully joining this branch unlike other mil. branches (not to say other Nazi forces were any better).
Hitler and Germany did not attack Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Norway, France, or Britain before the Soviet Union to fight Communism. In fact, German propaganda at that time was advertising "Bolshevism" as the main enemy. I can guarantee you that most german population did not know what it was just as Americans don't.
Nazis lost - period. They should have:
- First: repent and ask for forgiveness for the atrocities they've committed and serve prison sentences according to their crimes. Fun fact - very few actually did.
- second: thank winning nations for keeping their lives and shut the F up.
Asking their opinion of communism and giving their viewpoint any credibility is like asking Osama Bin Laden who did he like better in Afghanistan - Taliban or the U.S. forces.
Saying that U.S. was in a desperate need of any of the german/nazi technology or engineers to achieve something is absolutely untrue and really diminishes the achievements of U.S. scientists, engineers, companies, and whole industries.
U.S. and Britain before the WWII were a leading manufacturing and scientific centers. Sure, Germany might have had some technology which U.S. did not prioritize to develop. There was absolutely no justifiable need for U.S. to bring any of the germans (especially associated with the nazi regime) to work on any of the programs regardless of political situation (vs. Soviet Union), because any such tech could have been developed with domestic effort in reasonable time.
What white washing are you talking about?
I don’t think anyone here has ever supported the guys in on genocide.
Do you mean the concept that the average German citizen or soldier kinda sorta didn’t like Jews and was cool with deporting them but had no idea millions were going to die? That’s simply how it was. It doesn’t take a huge percent of the population in the know to come up with something horrible to do, some more to buy in, some more to reluctantly take part, and some more to just up shut up and not get involved.
As for the last paragraph,
In that era,
Depending on what your Ph.D. Was in, and what field you were working in, an Amercian strive to keep up with cutting edge literature in English, German, Italian, and French. And most of the physical sciences
Germany alone had about 40 Nobel prizes in Physics, Chemistry, and Physiology in the first half of the 20th century. France about a dozen. A few in Italy. UK was a major player with about 30. The US about 25, heavily weighted in Medicine or physiology. Germany was probably the highest per capita in the first half of the 20th century and heavily weighted in Chemistry and Physics. Their scientists were a gold mine, and expedited our goals.
By your logic we would all have no law enforcement or intelligence assets, no oil, etc.
It comes down to where you're from. My dad's side were Soviet partisans. His father smuggled weapons. My dad's cousin, who's the oldest of all the cousins, and there's like 30 of them, lost both his parents in one battle.
So the mentality is/was, if you're not with is you're against us!
No German cars, and very few German products overall. He won't care if it turned out his socks were made in Gemrmy but he's not going to buy a Das Avto
I think it really comes down to how close you were to events. Germans shot my grandfather down a few times (top turret on a B-24) and he spent a lot of time hiding from the Germans when they got shot down after hitting Ploesti. But he managed to get out alive and never spent a day as a POW.
Now had he been killed, captured or kept as a POW my family might have different feelings about German produced items. I also had other relatives who left Germany to come to the US after the Nuremberg laws were passed because his wife was jewish and they were suddenly very unpopular in Germany. They had the means to leave Germany and had family in the US so they didn't get stuck there like so many others. Even though he was born in Germany, he wasn't really thrilled about anything "made in Germany" and guys like Henry Ford and Joe Kennedy scared the crap out of him. He really believed for a time that "it could happen here."
I think it really comes down to how close you were to events. Germans shot my grandfather down a few times (top turret on a B-24) and he spent a lot of time hiding from the Germans when they got shot down after hitting Ploesti. But he managed to get out alive and never spent a day as a POW.
Now had he been killed, captured or kept as a POW my family might have different feelings about German produced items. I also had other relatives who left Germany to come to the US after the Nuremberg laws were passed because his wife was jewish and they were suddenly very unpopular in Germany. They had the means to leave Germany and had family in the US so they didn't get stuck there like so many others. Even though he was born in Germany, he wasn't really thrilled about anything "made in Germany" and guys like Henry Ford and Joe Kennedy scared the crap out of him. He really believed for a time that "it could happen here."Right. When it's your land and your people going to the camps or getting mowed down in mass graves it's a little more personal then just being shot at
Since, in common language, Bolshevists and Communists are one and the same or at least a subset of the other. And people back then did know what Bolshevism was -- at least in Europe they did. And Hitler and the Nazis Propaganda broadcast far and wide their hatred for and blame on the "Jewish Bolshevists". That was one of their public excuses to fan the flames of nationalism and get people behind them.
I agree the statement in bold. Without going too deep into the history, there were plenty of German communists at the time. They were considered another opposition party (similar to let's say a "Green" party in the U.S. - not to say that "green" are communists). "Bolshevism" is purely a soviet movement and was foreign in semantics and unknown in effect to a typical German besides what was broadcasted by a Nazi propaganda. It was used as a bogeyman to counter the idea and taint the movement (by association) of a domestic communism as an opposition party.
I was making a point that Nazi and Hitler, did not particularly care who to blame in Germany's domestic issues. It it wasn't communists, it would have been Poles, British, French, or other Germans for all that matters. Fascism (in Germany at the time) was a self feeding machine of pure hatred, driven by a fairly minor percentage of people either of spite for other nationalities, or a desire to enrich themselves by any means taking from other people/countries as much as they could plunder.
Right. When it's your land and your people going to the camps or getting mowed down in mass graves it's a little more personal then just being shot at
Goes without saying. And "people aside" all it really takes is one loved one. Those who lost everyone they had...I honestly cannot even imagine what that is like and I hope I never understand.
And when it happens, politics is a very after the fact consideration. If the Russians murder your entire family it doesn't feel any different than if the Germans murder your entire family. And if that motivates you to join the Waffen SS or a Russian partisan group, I'm going to reserve judgement before calling that person a nazi or a commie.
Suffice to say, 1935 to 1945 wasn't the greatest decade in human history, we really got to see what we were capable of as a species and it turns out we were capable of some serious horrors. That's just another reason why I usually take a step back and check the exits when someone claims they are going to "fix everything."
I agree the statement in bold. Without going too deep into the history, there were plenty of German communists at the time. They were considered another opposition party (similar to let's say a "Green" party in the U.S. - not to say that "green" are communists). "Bolshevism" is purely a soviet movement and was foreign in semantics and unknown in effect to a typical German besides what was broadcasted by a Nazi propaganda. It was used as a bogeyman to counter the idea and taint the movement (by association) of a domestic communism as an opposition party.
I was making a point that Nazi and Hitler, did not particularly care who to blame in Germany's domestic issues. It it wasn't communists, it would have been Poles, British, French, or other Germans for all that matters. Fascism (in Germany at the time) was a self feeding machine of pure hatred, driven by a fairly minor percentage of people either of spite for other nationalities, or a desire to enrich themselves by any means taking from other people/countries as much as they could plunder.
I think all forms of statism are potentially the same. Every time the state exists at the expense of the individual you have just created a meat grinder. What you care to name the meat grinder really doesn't matter. Far left, far right...doesn't matter.
A good friend of mine's dad was in the Waffen-SS. He was ethnically German from an area later part of Yugoslavia, and had moved to Austria IIRC, and was conscripted towards the end of the war into the Waffen-SS. He had no choice in the matter. He had no love for Nazis, Hitler, etc. He happened to have been born ethnically German and ended up being conscripted.
Giving a nazi, especially an SS nazi, any credibility is too much honor for their skin. What did he tell you? Let me guess: his father was a simple potato farmer (or a shoemaker, or a city clerk), his mother was a homemaker. He had wonderful family, but probably forgot to mention that: his parents supported Hitler and german superiority (for one reason or the other), his brother/cousin/uncle served in SS way back in 1935, his was given a choice to join a regular forces and fight the Russians or join SS and possibly go to France.
You take every nazi, every SS, and they would find a way to hide their crimes and an excuse for their service. All their memoirs are all basically the same story "we were young; were were brainwashed; I had no choice; my parents forced me to; I had to feed my family; I had to do this for my country; were were threatened by a court martial."
What you would find is basically no regret for their actions or an apology to their victims, but a 2-3 excuses taken out of a dozen boilerplate ones. Nothing really interesting or original, or rarely truthful for that matter.
If you read their actual letters/notes before or during the war you'd find that most adamantly supported the Nazi regime or their ideas. You will not find any of them asking questions such as "How would burning a farmer's family of 12 in Ukraine or Poland protect reich from communism?"
You know when did their support for the Nazi rule began to waver? Only when they were ground down by Russians in 100's of thousands and millions. But even when it was apparent that Germany could not win the war (from the end of 1943) until the end of the war they kept committing mass murder with regularity. Even after their cities were burning day in, day out, country being squeezed from both sides - they needed all the soldiers and transport they could find, they still chose to kill 100k's and millions of civilians and allocated resources and effort to mass murder instead of fighting the military. They still kept a vicious and aggressive/inhumane mentality to the end. Saying that they had no choice as individuals, is false.
I'm not against Germans or any other nation/nationality, but actively helping Germany to recover and accepting it into the international community after the war was a mistake. They dug this hole for themselves, they should have suffered consequences until at least the majority of perpetrators were alive (around the year 2000-2010). That would have set a great example for other nations going forward what starting a World War would do to a country. We don't have a problem keeping North Korea or Cuba isolated for that long.
We might not have had a Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche, but at the end of the day most people don't - and they get around their daily commute just fine in other cars. Not a big loss.
I think all forms of statism are potentially the same. Every time the state exists at the expense of the individual you have just created a meat grinder. What you care to name the meat grinder really doesn't matter. Far left, far right...doesn't matter.
Agreed.
I'm not against Germans or any other nation/nationality, but actively helping Germany to recover and accepting it into the international community after the war was a mistake. They dug this hole for themselves, they should have suffered consequences until at least the majority of perpetrators were alive (around the year 2000-2010). That would have set a great example for other nations going forward what starting a World War would do to a country. We don't have a problem keeping North Korea or Cuba isolated for that long.
Because that worked out so well after WWI. The Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Japan into an industrial nation were absolutely necessary. If we left Germany as is the Russians would have moved right in and probably not stopped until the reached the English channel. How would that have worked for the cold war?
And if we didn't do the Marshall Plan but remained an occupying force, we'd have been fighting rogue werewolf groups until the 1960s. We did what we did because as soon as the European war was over we realized we were now in conflict with a very powerful Soviet Union and we needed functional bases all over Europe to operate from.
We suddenly had bigger problems and one of them was not being ready for the next conflict. It was bad enough we had Charles De Douche in France undermining us at every turn, do you know how bad something like the Cuban Missile Crisis might have been if we didn't have a strong military presence in a fully recovered Germany?
You want to feel like the Germans should have been punished for WWII? Well how is this. From 1949 when the Russian detonated their first atomic bomb all the way until the end of the Cold war in 1989, we were never sure exactly what WW III might look like but there was one constant that was guaranteed, Germany would be at or near ground zero and scratched right off the map.
Not saying that makes up for anything, but if you think we lived in fear of the bomb, Berlin spent 40 years looking down the barrel of the gun.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
I condemn all the German people, for doing nothing. Now having said that, I will say I stayed away from this thread on purpose. But now I feel compelled to jump in.
My family didn't lose a single person to the Shoah, but we did have people fighting the Nazi's in uniform of the USA, as well as Japan.
The Waffen SS, was not an elite over the German military, that was Himmler's dream but it didn't work out across the board.
I would recommend to everyone a great book entitled "Blood Lands". This book compares how the people fared under the Nazi's V USSR.
A snip-it from the book in the early 1930 90% of NKVD officers were Jewish, by 1939 it was down to 3%. What happened?
These Jewish officers were all murdered. Not because they were Jewish, just because Stalin was nuts.
Stalin murdered more Jews than Hitler, just the truth. But they were not murdered because they were Jews. Stalin did have a plan to murder all the Jews, but he died first.
The Germans wanted to dehumanize it's victims. In the book Blood Lands they give examples of the Germans forcing people to do stupid things to humiliate them before the murdered them.
How many countries had civilians start to round up Jews and murder them when the Germans rolled into their country. How many of those non Germans to this day own the house they stole from Jews or the farm or factory?
So back to the Waffen SS, they weren't the best soldiers, but they were among the best Nazis.
People have address the Swiss banks, here. In the late 70s or early 80's a reporter in Switzerland had Swiss gold coins tested and they had an abnormally high level of mercury in them.
Emotion, wow pure sweet or evil emotion. Plays a big role in what firms a person may or may not do business with. Me I will never touch IBM product. Why, because they were there the whole way the German murder of Jews and others in the camp and the tracking down of Jews was made more efficient by IBM. After the war IBM, did an internal review. Not of the evil work they did, but how could they have done it better more efficiently.
Hugo Boss, sorry no. German cars and motorcycles, yes but not Mercedes. Why not Mercedes the driver seats hurt me, I traded for a week my Jeep for my friends Mercedes. By the end of the week, I was a cripple. BMW great cars and bikes. Porsche, yep have owned a bunch of them, my favorite was a 914/6.
German guns, big fan of HK MP5, and P7.
So to close, Nazis very bad, USSR very bad, USA and the whole world good and bad(USA refused Jewish refugees), Dominican Republic from a Jewish stand point very good at the Evian conference on the Jewish question, they committed to taking in Jews and did take in some before the door was slammed shut. But Trujillo had his military kill 20,000 Haitians.
But let's be honest, not one government is perfectly good we only have to look at Corona for proof. But governments can be perfectly evil, Germany WW2, USSR, Chicoms, Iran, Venezuela.
Mat G-D, give us all the wisdom and the strength we need to stand up to evil. So that none here, will ever be judged as a failure in the face of evil.
This is the kind of thread that really could be contrued the wrong way by a newbie or a visitor to the site. I think it needs to disappear.
We need to study history in order to chart our path forward and not make the same mistakes over and over, but looking for positives in Soviet, German, or Japanese conduct prior to, during, or immediately after WWII does not fall into the student of history category.
Yoni was very generous in his post above, I think this needs to close and disappear.
JMO
This is the kind of thread that really could be contrued the wrong way by a newbie or a visitor to the site. I think it needs to disappear.
We need to study history in order to chart our path forward and not make the same mistakes over and over, but looking for positives in Soviet, German, or Japanese conduct prior to, during, or immediately after WWII does not fall into the student of history category.
Yoni was very generous in his post above, I think this needs to close and disappear.
JMO
Honestly, I think because of posts like Yoni's it should stay. Lots of people being very candid about what things are and what things aren't. This is a subject I like to think I know a lot about but even I'm learning things I never knew before.
From a purely technical/historical point of view, wasn't the Waffen SS the first military force to have camouflage uniforms as a general issue item?
Averageman
05-04-20, 17:05
What do you do with combat soldiers when you bring them home from protracted life in war?
As far as German WW2 Combat vets, by the time I got there in 1981, there weren't many left. They were for the most part old, tired and wanting to forget.
sundance435
05-04-20, 17:05
This is the kind of thread that really could be contrued the wrong way by a newbie or a visitor to the site. I think it needs to disappear.
We need to study history in order to chart our path forward and not make the same mistakes over and over, but looking for positives in Soviet, German, or Japanese conduct prior to, during, or immediately after WWII does not fall into the student of history category.
Yoni was very generous in his post above, I think this needs to close and disappear.
JMO
Agree. If the thread had stayed in its original lane, there is some interesting historical information there, including how these guys were key in forming the special forces of several countries, ours included.
Now that it’s devolved to whether the USSR or Nazi Germany was worse, I think we can safely move on. They were both terrible for similar and differing reasons. Why people even argue something as tedious as that is beyond me, but whatever. People fixate on the weirdest things.
I know at one point in time post WW1, Germany still had good people. But at some point in the 1930's and early in that decade, they disappeared. They were either sent to Dachau, or worse they just closed their eyes, ears and mouths.
If you shut up, then you have become part of the total. Everyone knew that the National Socialist party hated Jews, and if you were not the sharpest knife in the drawer as of November 1938 you had Kristallnacht.
So the military, the police, all the people of Germany became complicit in a war that cost maybe up to 100 million people their lives.
I refuse to see any good in anything of Nazi Germany, USSR, Cambodia killing field times, etc.
Are good countries, so lacking of strong men and women to look up to? That we have to look to a man that
was part of evil?
Otto Skorzeny a Colonel if memory serves me correctly in the Waffen SS, and a buddy to Adolf was 100% dirtbag. But in his old age he worked for the Mossad, to get German scientist to stop working on Egyptian rocket program that was going to be used against Israel. He originally wanted to be taken off the wanted list to do the work, he didn't get this but still thought it was in his best interest to help Israel.
This thread also outlined others that after the war went to the USA Special Forces. I thank them for their service to the USA, but it doesn't erase the evil of their youth.
Nazi Germany V USSR, is like asking what cancer you want to die from, I think in the end all cancer sucks.
But here is the bottom line between the Nazi's and the USSR. Stalin murdered more people, but it was impersonal, just the business of a paranoid. Germany it was personal, even the average German soldier did things to Jews and others in the East to humiliate them. Germans were just pure nasty.
Just to shut up people that are think, what do you expect Yoni to say he is a Jew.
Yes I am a Jew, but both sides of my family came from Arab lands and were untouched by the Nazi's. Part of the family had been in the USA for about 300 years give or take at the time of WW2.
But let's be clear, being a Jew has nothing to do with my feelings. If you don't look at the whole Hitler chapter and issue a blanket condemnation against Germany and Germans of that time, then you need to question two things. First your humanity, second your relationship with the divine.
Does Germany of today need to pay the price of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers. In a small way they have billions in reparations have been paid through the years. Do I think salting the fields of Germany post WW2 and making the people slaves would be the correct response?
I don't think so, the world tried that after WW1, and it gave us Hitler.
Never let them forget, never forgive, but life must go forward.
I love me some P7, MP5k, PSG1, BMW motorcycles and cars, plus Porsche.
I don't give a damn if the Waffen SS, was the first to use camo uniforms. Israel has proved for years we can get the job done without them, roll around on the ground and your hard to see.
Germany historically has made great guns, cars and motorcycles, electronics and mass murder better and more scientific than any one. Such is life and historical facts.
I know at one point in time post WW1, Germany still had good people. But at some point in the 1930's and early in that decade, they disappeared. They were either sent to Dachau, or worse they just closed their eyes, ears and mouths.
If you shut up, then you have become part of the total. Everyone knew that the National Socialist party hated Jews, and if you were not the sharpest knife in the drawer as of November 1938 you had Kristallnacht.
So the military, the police, all the people of Germany became complicit in a war that cost maybe up to 100 million people their lives.
I use these same exact lines of thinking when I condemn China and not just the CCP for this current crap we're in. Yeah, they're oppressed, they would be mowed down, they can't effect change due to the danger, blah blah blah. I don't give a damn. At some point (regarding both Nazi Germany and current-day China) there was/is a strong sense of nationalism that overrides all if they as a nation are threatened. For Germany it was militarily threatened but in China it hasn't gone that far (yet) so they get indignant if we dare to suggest even lowly economic sanctions as a result of their behavior. Forget that fact that they damn well deserve it, but now they have become complicit and morph themselves into the "enemy" category also, not just their government at that point.
A person is brought into this world not by choice. A person can chose to stand against evil, even at the cost of their life. What a blessing, to have the courage to stand against evil.
At some point (regarding both Nazi Germany and current-day China *insert any country past or present, including the USA*) there was/is a strong sense of nationalism that overrides all if they as a nation are threatened.
Clarified.
A person is brought into this world not by choice. A person can chose to stand against evil, even at the cost of their life. What a blessing, to have the courage to stand against evil.
I don't think everyone knew how bad it was, others did and ended up in Dachau and a few others risked everything to hide people or help them escape.
Did everyone in Germany know the country was essentially evil? Some absolutely did but I stop short of saying everyone.
And here is where it gets muddy, you have your own family. So say you know...do you really risk your own wife and kids? Also what is it that you are supposed to do? Say you work at the Munich post office and somebody tells you where the trains are really going. That guy does what? File a formal protest? Try to stop the killing in Poland? Blow up the train tracks?
This is essentially the problem with statism of any kind. Once you get to a certain point you are powerless, your families will being is used as a weapon against anyone who doesn't get in line, conform or at a minimum keep their mouth shut. If a person is single and not responsible for anyone it might be easier to say "F you...kill me if you want but I'm gonna make you pay first." And of course if they've already killed everyone you care about you are now no longer restrained...but I doubt you would be free and walking around. Probably just waiting for your number to come up.
Not trying to give anyone a pass. And make no mistake when you start killing women and children wholesale it doesn't get much more evil than that. And all those who helped put it in place and knowingly supported it are the agents of evil and there isn't even a hint of gray area. It takes lots of support to put something like that into action and it takes a lot of people knowingly going along with it to keep it working. But some people end up in the middle and find out later what is actually going on and have no personal power to do anything to change it and the only move is one of self sacrifice. Maybe they tell themselves they will try and help somebody if they can, maybe they even actually do it if the opportunity presents itself...but it really is a shit sandwich.
If everyone in Europe, because let's be honest most of this shit didn't happen in Germany so much as it happened in Poland, Ukraine, Latvia and Austria and the camps that did exist in Germany tended to be "show camps" designed to convince the Red Cross that everyone was being treated well, but if everyone in Europe actually knew...it could never have worked. I will agree that a LOT of people in Europe knew about it, actively supported it or at least looked the other way. But part of the reason it was allowed to happen is because the Germans went to great lengths to hide what they were doing and that is why the worst of the camps were in places like Poland.
Meanwhile we have people in this country who won't even stand up to the ATF after Ruby Ridge and Waco and here I'm not trying to compare them with anything in Europe 1935-1945, but it's still government killing innocent people and we are still a long way from being subject of a totalitarian state like nazi germany.
So while we might call those event evil, how exactly should we fight evil in those instances? Honest question because ATF and the FBI had already demonstrated what it was willing to do.
Stalin murdered more Jews than Hitler, just the truth.
I say it in a friendly conversation and not to diminish your contribution.
As much as I respect your opinion this is a false statement and gives an incorrect perception to a reader who might not know the history. Antisemitism in Soviet Union takes roots far back into the history of the Russian empire. Some of it was connected to a European sentiment at the time, some of it was home grown.
I find it unreasonable (though understandable) to make a direct contrast of USSR at the time vs Germany or saying "choose your poison". This is just as unreasonable to make a contrast that somehow Chinese internal affairs had anything to do with the Japanese aggressive policy at the time. Two can be connected by history and time, but not interdependent. Each has to be evaluated independently and objectively.
Somebody mentions Nazi crimes and people jump in to contrast them with "the communist crimes". This has either intended or unintended effect of whitewashing Nazi's crimes in my opinion. This is not to take away from victims of horrendous crimes committed by various communist regimes in the 20th century.
On German engineering contribution to various U.S. programs:
- by the end of 1945 75% of the total industrial production in the world was in the USA.
- I don't dispute their potential contribution, though it would have been better to ask their American co-workers if Germans actually contributed what was claimed. What I'm saying that we could have domestically developed the same technology in a fairly short amount of time. Maybe it took us an extra year, maybe two. We're not talking about 20 year delay. Especially Russians did not have anything close to that.
- when talking about electronics and high precision field, Russian/Soviet industry was 15-20 years behind U.S. all the way until the 90's (probably even more now)
On former Nazi's who seemingly switched sides (to either east or west):
- a lot of the former nazi's spies and officers often inflated their importance and existence of special sources behind the enemy lines. This was done intentionally to boost their value and get on a payroll or a good side of the new masters. Their actual value, importance, or methods were at best questionable, at worst completely useless.
- this is quite often the case with defectors who try to inflate their value and inside knowledge to get a better deal. The choice for them was either get a normal job or continue their old conniving just for a different flag/entity.
- very dangerous to deal with/hire such people. Today they are telling you lies, tomorrow they are selling your secrets to somebody else.
- "enemy of my enemy, is my friend" can rarely be used to people involved in crimes against the humanity.
On Soviets marching all the way to Britain after WWII. This is a common misconception.
- Soviet Union was in ruins after WWII. Much like the rest of Europe. In fact, even with a fairly scare rations food shortages continued all the way until mid 1950's. Country was still under the Stalin's tyrannical rule until 1953.
- Allies supplied an enormous amount of food (especially), military equipment (something like 350-400k transport trucks), planes, comms, and etc. to the Soviet Union during the war. It is unlikely that the Soviet Union would have been able to win the war without an allied help (as much as Russian historians like to claim otherwise). Also see above for industrial output.
- Soviet Union, before the fall in 1991 had 3 or 4 Aircraft Cruisers(not carriers, about 1/2 smaller). Let that sink in for a minute.
The spooky boogeyman of communism, the "almighty" Soviet Union, which was an advertised threat and bane to the USA for the previous 50-60 years, 45 years after the end of WWII had less aircraft carriers than a Japanese fleet in 1941 (10 Japanese aircraft carriers).
In 1945, U.S. had 36 aircraft carriers (source, not sure if 100% accurate: https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/ww2-us-aircraft-carriers.asp)
I don't dispute any other military capabilities, but you get the numbers. I doubt the Russians back in 1945-1955 had any capability of harming the USA militarily (maybe besides minor skirmishes)?
- I strongly believe that USSR had no military capability to harm the USA until mid 1950's (with the introduction of TU-95). Whenever it had political intent/desire to commit a first-strike military campaigns in Europe against the western allies (NATO) is also unclear.
- What was clear that the Russian's military technology was mostly (not always, but mostly) reactive to counter advancements in U.S./western tech. U.S. had a far greater capabilities to strike USSR even without ICBMs. If you look at the map - Norway, Alaska, Japan, Korea, Turkey, Iran, Britain, West Germany, possibly Finland, aircraft carriers - all could have been used to launch simultaneous devastating attacks on the Russian's industries and cities at the time. Russia had a much more limited capabilities (technical and planning) and bases from which to launch anything reminiscent of such action against other western powers.
Thread hijack here, but it is related....
One of the big problems in Mexico is the corruption of the government officials and especially LE.
But put yourself in this situation. You are an honest cop in Mexico. You know that cartel activity is all around you, and other cops are on the take. You know that plata o plomo is the way the cartels operate. You have seen a lot of coworkers and sometimes their families end up dead in horrific ways from cartel violence.
You come home from work one day. You learn that some strange man approached your young child on his/her way home from school, called them by their name, referred to you and your wife by name, gave your kid(s) $500 or $1000, and told them to give the money to either you or your wife when they got home from school.
They have made it clear that they know who you are, who your family members are, where you live, and how to snatch your family at any time. Cartels are not known for being nice to people who tell them no or their family members. You have just been told to accept silver or take lead, accept bribes or face having you and your family brutally slaughtered.
You can't just pick up and move to the US, you are stuck in Mexico. You can quit your job and move, but you can't really hide. Not forever. Not in MX.
If you choose to go on the take under those circumstances, how bad or evil are you? I was as ethical of a cop as they came and lived for years with a bounty on me from two OC organizations but I admit that if I were that cop in MX unable to leave the country and forced to choose between accepting bribes or seeing my family slaughtered, I would probably go on the cartel's payroll myself. I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my family, whom I love more than anything else to being tortured to death by sicarios.
Most of the time people in totalitarian states weren't and aren't risking only their own lives, they were and are risking the lives of their entire nuclear and extended family as well.
Like judging an officer involved shooting or any other use of force after the fact, hindsight from the safety and luxury of ones recliner without the threats and pressures the person faced at the time makes much more difficult decisions made under duress look simple in hindsight.
I'm no apologist for what happened during WWII in Germany or Russia. FAR from it. I'm just pointing out that sitting in peacetime USA and the Western world in 2020, we have horrible perspective on what it was like for people at the time.
There is a reason that our legal system doesn't allow information learned after the fact to be factored into the decisions as to whether
someone's actions were reasonable when a self defense action was taken and you can only use what the person knew at the time in deciding if their actions were reasonable or not given what they knew or suspected.
Thread hijack here, but it is related....
One of the big problems in Mexico is the corruption of the government officials and especially LE.
Doesn't even have to be Mexico. Try Miami from 83-88. As a cop you didn't know who to trust from the top to the bottom. Somebody offers you money, it could be the department seeing if you are an honest cop, turn it down and you might wind up dead. So many people were on the take it would have made Frank Serpico's head explode.
DEA was undermining Metro operations, Metro was screwing things up for DEA and nobody trusted anybody. And god help you if you were detective working narcotics who was actually trying to solve the problem, find out who the big guys were and bring them in. I remember a bunch of older South Florida cops talking about the "bad cops" who would leak names and get cops killed.
I don't dispute any other military capabilities, but you get the numbers. I doubt the Russians back in 1945-1955 had any capability of harming the USA militarily (maybe besides minor skirmishes)?
- I strongly believe that USSR had no military capability to harm the USA until mid 1950's (with the introduction of TU-95). Whenever it had political intent/desire to commit a first-strike military campaigns in Europe against the western allies (NATO) is also unclear.
- What was clear that the Russian's military technology was mostly (not always, but mostly) reactive to counter advancements in U.S./western tech. U.S. had a far greater capabilities to strike USSR even without ICBMs. If you look at the map - Norway, Alaska, Japan, Korea, Turkey, Iran, Britain, West Germany, possibly Finland, aircraft carriers - all could have been used to launch simultaneous devastating attacks on the Russian's industries and cities at the time. Russia had a much more limited capabilities (technical and planning) and bases from which to launch anything reminiscent of such action against other western powers.
I can take that one. If we didn't use the bomb in Japan, and we did that for Russia as much as we did for Japan, and we invaded the southern islands of Kyushu as part of an overall invasion from the south, Stalin would have immediately invaded the northern islands of Hokkaido with all the Russian forces that just got freed up because the Japanese they were fighting were sent home to defend the mainland.
Russian tanks and troops are all that would have been necessary to seize and hold Japan and likely result in a partition as we saw in Korea and Vietnam. Only our demonstrated willingness to use the bomb and MacArthurs assurance that we'd use it again...even against the Russians in the north, kept Stalin out of Japan.
The soviets also didn't need lots of carriers or advanced aircraft. They learned not to rely on a navy when they got their asses kicked in the Russo - Japanese war. But men and tanks of an endless supply were all they needed if they were willing to see them all as expendable...and they did. By the time Russia got the bomb in 1949 they really didn't need much else.
Their idea of an advanced weapon was a doomsday device like a ship with nuclear weapons in the high megaton range and a dead man switch.
Clarified.
No Moral Equivalency please. I would hardly put the U.S. in the same category as either Nazi Germany or Communist China. Not even close. Yes, we may have nationalist fervor from time to time but for them it becomes another turd to throw on their pile of problems.
Let me clarify on the Germany V USSR.
The USSR murdered more Jews, but it was just business.
Again Germany wanted to humiliate and dehumanize their victims, they didn't just murder you, first they took your dignity.
A few years ago a study was finished on Concentration camps of the Nazi's, they numbered 10,000 and were spread all over Europe. Remember a Concentration camp is not a death camp in the gas chamber sense. They would work you to death.
I tried to make the point and failed, that at a certain point if you fail to stand up to evil of the state it for sure will get to the point you can do nothing about it. Which was my point of you lose your ability to say you were not part of the evil.
I will say I am filled with hope, when I see people taking to the streets in the USA right now to protest government over reach. Americans G-D bless us, seem to have a limit to state run BS.
sundance435
05-05-20, 08:19
Thread hijack here, but it is related....
One of the big problems in Mexico is the corruption of the government officials and especially LE.
But put yourself in this situation. You are an honest cop in Mexico. You know that cartel activity is all around you, and other cops are on the take. You know that plata o plomo is the way the cartels operate. You have seen a lot of coworkers and sometimes their families end up dead in horrific ways from cartel violence.
I've thought about this before, too. Honestly, I don't know what I would do in that situation. Do you stand for something, even if it's pyrrhic and leads to you and your family being killed? It's definitely a tough decision, but until more of them start choosing honor, duty, etc., it's also not going to get any better. I have a lot of respect for the prosecutors, judges, and police brass who have stood up to the cartel. Many enjoyed at least passive support from large portions of the population, only to be deserted when the going got tough.
I tried to make the point and failed, that at a certain point if you fail to stand up to evil of the state it for sure will get to the point you can do nothing about it. Which was my point of you lose your ability to say you were not part of the evil.
I will say I am filled with hope, when I see people taking to the streets in the USA right now to protest government over reach. Americans G-D bless us, seem to have a limit to state run BS.
Excellent points and observations.
We are also being shown the fallacy of believing no/few police will enforce gun bans/confiscation.
Excellent points and observations.
We are also being shown the fallacy of believing no/few police will enforce gun bans/confiscation.
To be fair, there have been a number of LEO agencies (namely sheriffs) who have announced that they will not arrest people for quarantine "violations".
To be fair, there have been a number of LEO agencies (namely sheriffs) who have announced that they will not arrest people for quarantine "violations".True and that is what they are supposed to be doing.
Sent from my LM-X410.FGN using Tapatalk
Let me clarify on the Germany V USSR.
The USSR murdered more Jews, but it was just business.
NO. Please stop disseminating this misinformation.
This is absolutely not true. I don't care what you "feel like" about this - unless you have confirmed information to back this up please stop posting your feelings or how you perceive history as facts.
Grand58742
05-05-20, 13:50
I think it would be more correct to say Werner Von Braun finally made it to the moon with the help of the US. Not saying he was a great guy, didn't use slave labor or any of that stuff...he absolutely used any and every means made available to him to achieve his dream of going to the moon even if it meant building V2s for Hitler. But I don't think we'd have gotten to the moon without him and the Russians were literally weeks behind us in the effort. The only thing that would have been in question is if the Russians would have been able to bring their guys back from the moon.
Agree on Von Braun getting us to the moon in a timely fashion. Disagree with the Soviets being weeks behind us especially with Sergei Korolev passing on in 1966. They could get there and do a slingshot around the moon, but they didn't ever have the ability to stay. The N-1 program was years behind our Saturn V. We already had two landings on the moon (almost three, Apollo 13 being the other) before they even got an LK lander into space.
Without Von Braun, we don't get to the moon.
Without Korolev, the Soviets never got to the moon.
NO. Please stop disseminating this misinformation.
This is absolutely not true. I don't care what you "feel like" about this - unless you have confirmed information to back this up please stop posting your feelings or how you perceive history as facts.
Your so wrong. It is well documented read Blood Lands as a starting point.
NO. Please stop disseminating this misinformation.
This is absolutely not true. I don't care what you "feel like" about this - unless you have confirmed information to back this up please stop posting your feelings or how you perceive history as facts.
Pot meet kettle. Your last two opinion pieces are literally plagued with errors. When confronted you deny or side step.
I am wondering if you are actually part of a troll farm spewing crap just to see who will believe it.
If you are a troll, you are literally following Sun Tzu Art of War a little too close on a forum where there are many students.
“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
Attempting to re-write the history of the cold war where the US was just a capitalist oppressor years ahead of our adversary is total horse shit.
I tried to make the point and failed, that at a certain point if you fail to stand up to evil of the state it for sure will get to the point you can do nothing about it. Which was my point of you lose your ability to say you were not part of the evil.
I understand that point. But while it's nothing close to the same scale, Ruby Ridge and Waco already happened. Nothing much was done about it. How much more has to happen before we pass your tipping point and become complicit? Did we already miss that opportunity in your view?
Agree on Von Braun getting us to the moon in a timely fashion. Disagree with the Soviets being weeks behind us especially with Sergei Korolev passing on in 1966. They could get there and do a slingshot around the moon, but they didn't ever have the ability to stay. The N-1 program was years behind our Saturn V. We already had two landings on the moon (almost three, Apollo 13 being the other) before they even got an LK lander into space.
Without Von Braun, we don't get to the moon.
Without Korolev, the Soviets never got to the moon.
Luna 15 got there July 21, 1969. So I have no doubt that if Apollo 11 didn't happen, the Russians would have put men on the moon. It's very likely it would have been a one way trip, but they would have done it eventually.
Grand58742
05-05-20, 15:58
Luna 15 got there July 21, 1969. So I have no doubt that if Apollo 11 didn't happen, the Russians would have put men on the moon. It's very likely it would have been a one way trip, but they would have done it eventually.
Huge difference in an unmanned probe and a manned lunar lander. The Luna series landers were pretty much the equivalent of our Surveyor program.
The Soviet Moonshot program was several years behind ours namely because of Korolev's death. Again, they didn't have the hardware to go and stay like we did and nobody could make the N-1 rocket work. Any attempt at beating us to the moon died in 1966.
ETA: Luna series landers, not the whole program.
Did we already miss that opportunity in your view?
No I don't think we have missed our time to stand tall, in the sense of it being too late.
However, when we see abuses and we don't speak up then, we are complicit in building the parking lot outside the last station.
I spoke out against the Patriot Act, on a national radio show. I went on record as it wasn't needed and that it would be abused. The FBI swore up and down it would never be used in criminal cases, but it has been.
I am not a fan of the FBI, they tried to over throw the will of the people and other American intelligence agencies were also part of it.
The day we lose redress in the courts, we will know we are screwed and we blew it. I hope and pray that all the people that have been arrested or cited for Corona violations, will get justice when the courts throw these cases out.
I think the upcoming election really matters. If the American people return Trump to the White House and the Republicans take the house and build in the Senate, we have more time.
If the people put Biden in the White House, then we have problems.
Understand I am not a Republican, and they are not much different than a smoking hot girl that crawls into your bed but shows as much life as a dead woman. They sound and look good, but short on performance.
Have hope, we didn't get here in a day and we will not get back to the greatness of what America stands for in a day. We have to fight government tyranny, by using the system while we still can. For if we fail to do so, we will have to fight for real. If we have to fight for real, it will be very bad and China is waiting to pounce on the day the first shot is fired brother on brother.
Huge difference in an unmanned probe and a manned lunar lander. The Luna series landers were pretty much the equivalent of our Surveyor program.
The Soviet Moonshot program was several years behind ours namely because of Korolev's death. Again, they didn't have the hardware to go and stay like we did and nobody could make the N-1 rocket work. Any attempt at beating us to the moon died in 1966.
ETA: Luna series landers, not the whole program.
So I guess what I was saying is our program was to land men on the moon and bring them back, the Russian program really only needed to land men on the moon. I get what you are saying, but the Russians really only needed to solve a payload problem. I'm also not saying it was guaranteed, but they were desperate and willing to do almost anything.
And I don't won't to gloss over the fact that "one guy" could be the key to everything and they lost that guy in 66.
No I don't think we have missed our time to stand tall, in the sense of it being too late.
However, when we see abuses and we don't speak up then, we are complicit in building the parking lot outside the last station.
I spoke out against the Patriot Act, on a national radio show. I went on record as it wasn't needed and that it would be abused. The FBI swore up and down it would never be used in criminal cases, but it has been.
I am not a fan of the FBI, they tried to over throw the will of the people and other American intelligence agencies were also part of it.
The day we lose redress in the courts, we will know we are screwed and we blew it. I hope and pray that all the people that have been arrested or cited for Corona violations, will get justice when the courts throw these cases out.
I think the upcoming election really matters. If the American people return Trump to the White House and the Republicans take the house and build in the Senate, we have more time.
If the people put Biden in the White House, then we have problems.
Understand I am not a Republican, and they are not much different than a smoking hot girl that crawls into your bed but shows as much life as a dead woman. They sound and look good, but short on performance.
Have hope, we didn't get here in a day and we will not get back to the greatness of what America stands for in a day. We have to fight government tyranny, by using the system while we still can. For if we fail to do so, we will have to fight for real. If we have to fight for real, it will be very bad and China is waiting to pounce on the day the first shot is fired brother on brother.
I also spoke out against the Patriot Act with nearly identical objections. But that was on the internet and it was just one voice against many. What do we do when we don't have a larger forum, and a national radio show doesn't really amount to much more than complaining on the internet.
What happens when SCOTUS goes against the direct wording of the Constitution as they did when they ruled Eminent Domain can be used for private use IF it can be demonstrated that there is a public benefit? That ruling also came in under a Republican President just like the Patriot Act.
So our government has already violated the Constitution with the specific approval of the Supreme Court so that check and balance failed. Given that it was related to ED most people even noticed and fewer people cared. By the time they move the ball forward enough to install something like a socialist government, completely with the large crowds of cheering supporters who can't comprehend what they will actually mean, what do we do?
Who do we shoot and when? Most of us will try and make the voting process that is in place work right up until the end. By then it might be too late. And the point I'm trying to make is not that we are starring down the barrel of a rogue government that we will have to fight in our lifetimes, but that things happened in Europe so fast that most people were completely powerless to stop them. When your country is simply annexed by Germany without a vote...who do you shoot and when? Especially when millions of your countrymen are standing on the side of the road throwing flowers at the troops when they arrive.
So from a philosophical standpoint I can agree with your position that everyone is responsible, even the guy who only delivered the mail (because he moved messages that led to roundups and death) and even the guy who only laid train track (because he helped move the trains). But from a practical standpoint those individuals were powerless to do anything and even if they sacrificed their own lives they'd have gained little or nothing and the next day there would be another guy delivering the mail and laying train track.
And if we completely accept your position, somebody should have killed George Soros a LONG TIME AGO.
Grand58742
05-05-20, 16:53
So I guess what I was saying is our program was to land men on the moon and bring them back, the Russian program really only needed to land men on the moon. I get what you are saying, but the Russians really only needed to solve a payload problem. I'm also not saying it was guaranteed, but they were desperate and willing to do almost anything.
And I don't won't to gloss over the fact that "one guy" could be the key to everything and they lost that guy in 66.
I understand, but at the same time, would the Soviets have admitted they landed a man on the moon and couldn't get him home? Their space program was never open about their failures and failing to bring the person home would have been a disaster. Oh, they very well could have pulled a slight of hand, sent some random person to the moon, claimed it was someone like Alexi Leonov that "landed" and "brought" him back to fanfare and ticker tape parades. Pretty much the Soviet version of Capricorn One. Otherwise, headlines would have read:
"Soviets land man on the moon! Left him to die..."
The key in that race, which was outlined by JFK and brought to life by people like Von Braun was to land them safely and bring them back safely. The Soviets wanted to beat us in that endeavor.
And if we completely accept your position, somebody should have killed George Soros a LONG TIME AGO.
Amen. But now today you would have to wipe out the blood line, also.
I am too wiped out mentally to respond to your whole long post. I agree with most of it, if not all of it. But I have been trying to solve problems for over 14 hours as of now. I need to find a movie to watch
Attempting to re-write the history of the cold war where the US was just a capitalist oppressor years ahead of our adversary is total horse shit.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion from my posts. My posts were factual, and opinion based on the information I read over the years from various sources. Sources could be wrong, but my viewpoint was based what I considered to be a reliable/credible article at the time (over 20 years of reading on such topics). If you have something to counter me with other than your emotional or tin-foiled accusations please do. I'd be happy to learn something new and change my opinion if I find them credible or substantially changing situation overall.
I also don't believe I sidestepped any topics as you accuse me of.
As I said, based on the industrial output, U.S. was not just years ahead of any other country. It was sometimes decades ahead (and still is).
This is why I provided an Aircraft fleet comparison - it takes enormous resources and technology to build one and more importantly maintain the related infrastructure around it. If you don't believe my numbers look it up.
Here are more examples what I just read recently, if you still believe US was not ahead of Russia (or other nations):
- most prevalent Russian/Soviet torpedo currently (as in 2020) in service - 'ceramics'. Unlicensed copy of U.S.-made mk46 mod1. This is 1960's tech. Its batteries are copies of U.S. made ones in 1950's (technology patented stateside late 1940's). To give you a time reference - Hawaii and Alaska became U.S. states in 1959.
U.S. decommissioned this tech late 1960's. There are other newer torpedo technology available, but it's still not wide-spread and only being fielded for testing (just giving you what I've read). You have to forgive my naive nature, but I don't see a deception everywhere.
- Russians up until 2014 sanctions, were buying night vision and thermal devices from France to modernize T-90 tanks. Not sure if they have domestic ones now. 20+ years after the cold war they still did not have it, despite free trade before sanctions.
- stealth aircraft - B2/F117 - this is early-mid 1980's tech. Give me an example of another country producing anything like that as a serial production. I don't know of any. Maybe only Japan can do it, if they wanted to. This is almost 40 years after going into production.
There are other examples to that. You can't say that if another country is ahead in a certain field, that we're behind overall and we have to act like sky is falling. Take North Korea for example. They might have nukes (presumed, but not publicly confirmed they a have working device), but people are starving. Are they ahead of where U.S. was back in 1945-1950? No way.
sundance435
05-05-20, 17:42
Huge difference in an unmanned probe and a manned lunar lander. The Luna series landers were pretty much the equivalent of our Surveyor program.
The Soviet Moonshot program was several years behind ours namely because of Korolev's death. Again, they didn't have the hardware to go and stay like we did and nobody could make the N-1 rocket work. Any attempt at beating us to the moon died in 1966.
ETA: Luna series landers, not the whole program.
After the fall of the USSR it became very clear how far behind they were judging from declassified Soviet documents/assessments. The “race” to the moon was against ourselves, but we didn’t know it because the CIA was feeding NASA complete bullshit about the status of the Soviet program. Korolev’s death set them further behind by years and after Apollo 8, they gave up almost entirely and focused on what would become Mir.
So from a philosophical standpoint I can agree with your position that everyone is responsible, even the guy who only delivered the mail (because he moved messages that led to roundups and death) and even the guy who only laid train track (because he helped move the trains). But from a practical standpoint those individuals were powerless to do anything and even if they sacrificed their own lives they'd have gained little or nothing and the next day there would be another guy delivering the mail and laying train track.
Thank you. Very good point and well put.
Amen. But now today you would have to wipe out the blood line, also.
This is over the line. Seriously.
I'm going to excuse myself from the thread at this point.
Amen. But now today you would have to wipe out the blood line, also.
I am too wiped out mentally to respond to your whole long post. I agree with most of it, if not all of it. But I have been trying to solve problems for over 14 hours as of now. I need to find a movie to watch
Fair enough, but seriously you and I are having a mostly philosophical discussion. It's of little real importance, enjoy your movie. In fact watch several, perhaps we can rid the world of evil next week.
I understand, but at the same time, would the Soviets have admitted they landed a man on the moon and couldn't get him home? Their space program was never open about their failures and failing to bring the person home would have been a disaster. Oh, they very well could have pulled a slight of hand, sent some random person to the moon, claimed it was someone like Alexi Leonov that "landed" and "brought" him back to fanfare and ticker tape parades. Pretty much the Soviet version of Capricorn One. Otherwise, headlines would have read:
"Soviets land man on the moon! Left him to die..."
The key in that race, which was outlined by JFK and brought to life by people like Von Braun was to land them safely and bring them back safely. The Soviets wanted to beat us in that endeavor.
Well the put a dog on a stamp that is still in space.
I honestly think it would have gone more like "We landed our heroes on the moon and they marveled at their great achievement and did many wonderful things. Sadly upon reentry a small mechanical failure led to the destruction of the re entry vehicle and the brave crew. We shall forever remember them as heroes of the soviet union and respect their great accomplishment. We will also suspend any future landings until we can guarantee the safe return of our brave cosmonauts."
Grand58742
05-05-20, 18:24
After the fall of the USSR it became very clear how far behind they were judging from declassified Soviet documents/assessments. The “race” to the moon was against ourselves, but we didn’t know it because the CIA was feeding NASA complete bullshit about the status of the Soviet program. Korolev’s death set them further behind by years and after Apollo 8, they gave up almost entirely and focused on what would become Mir.
I think the race was against ourselves as much as the Soviets.
I saw a series on Apple TV called "For All Mankind." Basically, the premise is the Soviets beat us to the moon by a month. Being knowledgeable of the history there, there had to be all sorts of things that went right for them to achieve such a goal. However, the government did use that for a reason to push Von Braun out of NASA by bringing up his SS past.
If the Soviets though that they could beat us to the moon, but it might require sacrificing the lives of their Cosmonauts in the process, I think they would have went for it (going by the standards of that era).
Giving a nazi, especially an SS nazi, any credibility is too much honor for their skin. What did he tell you? Let me guess: his father was a simple potato farmer (or a shoemaker, or a city clerk), his mother was a homemaker. He had wonderful family, but probably forgot to mention that: his parents supported Hitler and german superiority (for one reason or the other), his brother/cousin/uncle served in SS way back in 1935, his was given a choice to join a regular forces and fight the Russians or join SS and possibly go to France.
You take every nazi, every SS, and they would find a way to hide their crimes and an excuse for their service. All their memoirs are all basically the same story "we were young; were were brainwashed; I had no choice; my parents forced me to; I had to feed my family; I had to do this for my country; were were threatened by a court martial."
Dude, I don't know you. But I suggest you stay in your own lane, because you are so far out of it that you are totally off the road. I knew the friend's dad. No, his family were not Nazis. They were not at the end of the war, nor were they in 1935. He was not conscripted by the SS until late in 1944 or early in 1945 IIRC. It is well established by historians that by the middle of the war the Waffen-SS were getting conscripts like every other branch of the military and they were no more likely to be Nazis than in the Wehrmacht (Heer, Marine, Luftwaffe). Before the war, and in the first part of the war, yes, it was volunteer based. And a good percentage of those were probably "Nazis" politically. By the end of the war, not so much.
What you would find is basically no regret for their actions or an apology to their victims, but a 2-3 excuses taken out of a dozen boilerplate ones. Nothing really interesting or original, or rarely truthful for that matter.
Again, I suggest you stay in your own lane.
If you read their actual letters/notes before or during the war you'd find that most adamantly supported the Nazi regime or their ideas. You will not find any of them asking questions such as "How would burning a farmer's family of 12 in Ukraine or Poland protect reich from communism?"
You know when did their support for the Nazi rule began to waver? Only when they were ground down by Russians in 100's of thousands and millions. But even when it was apparent that Germany could not win the war (from the end of 1943) until the end of the war they kept committing mass murder with regularity. Even after their cities were burning day in, day out, country being squeezed from both sides - they needed all the soldiers and transport they could find, they still chose to kill 100k's and millions of civilians and allocated resources and effort to mass murder instead of fighting the military. They still kept a vicious and aggressive/inhumane mentality to the end. Saying that they had no choice as individuals, is false.
I'm not against Germans or any other nation/nationality, but actively helping Germany to recover and accepting it into the international community after the war was a mistake. They dug this hole for themselves, they should have suffered consequences until at least the majority of perpetrators were alive (around the year 2000-2010). That would have set a great example for other nations going forward what starting a World War would do to a country. We don't have a problem keeping North Korea or Cuba isolated for that long.
We might not have had a Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche, but at the end of the day most people don't - and they get around their daily commute just fine in other cars. Not a big loss.
SMH
If everyone in Europe, because let's be honest most of this shit didn't happen in Germany so much as it happened in Poland, Ukraine, Latvia and Austria and the camps that did exist in Germany tended to be "show camps" designed to convince the Red Cross that everyone was being treated well, but if everyone in Europe actually knew...it could never have worked. I will agree that a LOT of people in Europe knew about it, actively supported it or at least looked the other way. But part of the reason it was allowed to happen is because the Germans went to great lengths to hide what they were doing and that is why the worst of the camps were in places like Poland.
Anti-semitism was not a German phenomenon. Poland had high levels of anti-semitism. There were those in Poland who tried to help the jews, and jews were allowed in *some* of the resistance units, but a lot resistance units in Poland would not take jews. Lots of normal Polish people were not worried about what was happening to the Jews as long as the normal Polish people were left alone. Of course, it didn't work out that way. And some of them got it and banded together with the jewish underground to fight the Nazis.
Similar story in Ukraine and elsewhere in the East. Lots of anti-semitism elsewhere in Europe (and the world) at the time.
brushy bill
05-05-20, 20:34
Anti-semitism was not a German phenomenon. Poland had high levels of anti-semitism. There were those in Poland who tried to help the jews, and jews were allowed in *some* of the resistance units, but a lot resistance units in Poland would not take jews. Lots of normal Polish people were not worried about what was happening to the Jews as long as the normal Polish people were left alone. Of course, it didn't work out that way. And some of them got it and banded together with the jewish underground to fight the Nazis.
Similar story in Ukraine and elsewhere in the East. Lots of anti-semitism elsewhere in Europe (and the world) at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._
Captain Schröder directed St. Louis and the remaining 907 refugees towards the United States.[11] He circled off the coast of Florida, hoping for permission from authorities to enter the United States. Cordell Hull, Secretary of State, advised Roosevelt not to accept the Jews. Captain Schröder considered running aground along the coast to allow the refugees to escape but, acting on Cordell Hull's instructions, United States Coast Guard vessels shadowed the ship and prevented such action.
Anti-semitism was not a German phenomenon. Poland had high levels of anti-semitism. There were those in Poland who tried to help the jews, and jews were allowed in *some* of the resistance units, but a lot resistance units in Poland would not take jews. Lots of normal Polish people were not worried about what was happening to the Jews as long as the normal Polish people were left alone. Of course, it didn't work out that way. And some of them got it and banded together with the jewish underground to fight the Nazis.
Similar story in Ukraine and elsewhere in the East. Lots of anti-semitism elsewhere in Europe (and the world) at the time.
Yep, ironically one of the foundations for 20th century anti semitism "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" most likely originated in Russia. Also Madame Blavatsky, a late 19th century psuedo mystic was the first to apply Tibetan ideas of "aryans" to Anglo Saxon Europeans. When her ideas were first translated into German by Edmund Kiss there served as a basis for SS racial theory.
Now to add a little flair to the thread, I was approached this week by a very high end family that the grandfather fought in WW2 in the Waffen SS tanks. So the family wants us to secure a WW2 German tank for them.
Now to add a little flair to the thread, I was approached this week by a very high end family that the grandfather fought in WW2 in the Waffen SS tanks. So the family wants us to secure a WW2 German tank for them.
That could be interesting. If you do, and can post pics in a new topic, it would be appreciated :)
That could be interesting. If you do, and can post pics in a new topic, it would be appreciated :)
Not up to me the client has got to pony up the money for the project.
Now to add a little flair to the thread, I was approached this week by a very high end family that the grandfather fought in WW2 in the Waffen SS tanks. So the family wants us to secure a WW2 German tank for them.
I have a friend that collects military vehicles and tanks and I was this close to buying a T-34 at a time when "mere mortals" could actually buy one. It was something insane like $15k and actually cost more to bring them over from Russia than the cost of the tank itself.
He had some kind of mod worked out where you could use an ordinary car battery that was readily available and the maintenance was more or less supported, but I knew that having driven it through McDonalds drive through it would just become an expensive lawn ornament from that point forward.
But I still almost bought one.
Grand58742
05-06-20, 16:11
I have a friend that collects military vehicles and tanks and I was this close to buying a T-34 at a time when "mere mortals" could actually buy one. It was something insane like $15k and actually cost more to bring them over from Russia than the cost of the tank itself.
He had some kind of mod worked out where you could use an ordinary car battery that was readily available and the maintenance was more or less supported, but I knew that having driven it through McDonalds drive through it would just become an expensive lawn ornament from that point forward.
But I still almost bought one.
It's not Dragonman is it?
It's not Dragonman is it?
No it was a collector in South Florida that I've known for about 20 years. He doesn't have anything like Reed Knights tank collection but he's got about 8 of them and maybe 12 assorted military vehicles which is more than any other gun collector I know.
Grand58742
05-06-20, 18:13
No it was a collector in South Florida that I've known for about 20 years. He doesn't have anything like Reed Knights tank collection but he's got about 8 of them and maybe 12 assorted military vehicles which is more than any other gun collector I know.
If you ever get out towards Colorado Springs, check out the Dragon Man museum.
This is over the line. Seriously.
I'm going to excuse myself from the thread at this point.
If this forum had been around in 1938 would you have considered it over the line to discuss the assassinations of Hitler or Stalin? I would suggest that Soros, because of his wealth, influence, and political views, is just as big a threat to our nation now as Hitler and Stalin were in 1938.
Going to weigh-in here, I hope with some objectivity.
If this forum had been around in 1938 would you have considered it over the line to discuss the assassinations of Hitler or Stalin?.
Prior to 1939, I'm not sure what most people would have thought. Many up to that point were still hoping things would work out. Although, by 1940, I'm sure most would have approved of Hitler being killed.
I would suggest that Soros, because of his wealth, influence, and political views, is just as big a threat to our nation now as Hitler and Stalin were in 1938.
I think you have to consider the context of the threat. Hitler and Stalin were behaving in ways that violated the moral and ethical beliefs of all but their closest followers. Soros, while he may be perceived by those center to right as a threat to our country, his politics are not reprehensible to those on the 'leftish' side of the political spectrum, perhaps a third of the country, I'd guess.
Since this is a thread about the Waffen SS, alx01's statement may have been made in the context that even though Soros is a non-observant Jew, he and his family had to masquerade as Christians to escape deportation/persecution from Hungary.
So, yeah, while Soros is a leftist/socialist rich guy who is trying to mold the world the way he thinks it should be, many folks see him as nothing worse than the right-wing rich guys who are trying to mold the world to their vision.
Now to add a little flair to the thread, I was approached this week by a very high end family that the grandfather fought in WW2 in the Waffen SS tanks. So the family wants us to secure a WW2 German tank for them.
Yoni - two questions:
1) What area of Kansas are you headed to?
2) What is your perception of the German family's desire to buy a tank like Grandfather used during WWII?
Going to weigh-in here, I hope with some objectivity.
Prior to 1939, I'm not sure what most people would have thought. Many up to that point were still hoping things would work out. Although, by 1940, I'm sure most would have approved of Hitler being killed.
I think you have to consider the context of the threat. Hitler and Stalin were behaving in ways that violated the moral and ethical beliefs of all but their closest followers. Soros, while he may be perceived by those center to right as a threat to our country, his politics are not reprehensible to those on the 'leftish' side of the political spectrum, perhaps a third of the country, I'd guess.
Since this is a thread about the Waffen SS, alx01's statement may have been made in the context that even though Soros is a non-observant Jew, he and his family had to masquerade as Christians to escape deportation/persecution from Hungary.
So, yeah, while Soros is a leftist/socialist rich guy who is trying to mold the world the way he thinks it should be, many folks see him as nothing worse than the right-wing rich guys who are trying to mold the world to their vision.
I don't think the problem people have with Soros is his politics or that he had to hide as a jew during WWII. I think the problem people have with Soros is he actively participated in the persecution of other jews by assisting in the seizing of their assets.
From a 60 Minutes interview...
KROFT: My understanding is that you went out with this protector of yours who swore that you were his adopted godson.
SOROS: Yes. Yes.
KROFT: Went out, in fact, and helped in the confiscation of property from your fellow Jews, friends and neighbors.
SOROS: Yes. That’s right. Yes.
KROFT: I mean, that sounds like an experience that would send lots of people to the psychiatric couch for many, many, years. Was it difficult?
SOROS: No, not at all. Not at all, I rather enjoyed it.
KROFT: No feelings of guilt?
SOROS: No, none at all.
This thread should not disappear, it's good to know where people stand and why. I have always been interested in the history of the few who stood against the many, wherever and whenever it happened, but particularly on the eastern front in WWII and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Plenty of you guys are more well-read than me, but it occurs to me that the only thing that changes is technology, and people pretty much never change. Still fascinating to read your comments, thanks.
Yoni - two questions:
1) What area of Kansas are you headed to?
2) What is your perception of the German family's desire to buy a tank like Grandfather used during WWII?
I was going to surprise my dad who is with my sister in Hutchinson. But I thought it was better to give him input and he vetoed the trip.
My perception of the family, is that they are very rich. They have supported things that have helped former members of the Army most elite unit. So I think they are good people that love America were born in the USA. They just want the same tank that dad or granddad had in WW2.
I also know of a second high worth family, that post WW2 the grandfather/father went to South America. Built a family empire at such a size and at such a rate, that it is sure they had substantial funds to get thing bought and paid for. The old man also had the SS blood tattoo under his left arm, this was from someone that was part of his security. The old man is dead, but I chose not to be involved with this family.
Let me address Soros.
I believe in freedom and liberty.
However, when you cross over a place where your political views seek to take away the freedom and liberty that our Constitution highlights, then you are no longer legitimate.
I don't care if your on the left or the right.
The left has Soros, Heinz, most hi tech billionaires, that want to impose their elitist world view on the rest of us. These people are evil.
As someone asked would it be immoral and wrong to kill Hitler in 1933 or Stalin maybe a little before this?
Which the British military attache in Berlin pushed for in 1939 if I remember correctly. How much suffering could have been saved, maybe none we will never know.
I will say that this thread along with a few other threads during the lockdown, combined with the government over reach and some of the protest against the over reach has brought me to the following belief.
This election matters. If the president isn't reelected, and the dems lose control of Congress we will not have a good future. If Biden is elected, he will not finish his term. Soon after he will step down or be removed due to the fact the poor man is losing his ability to think. His VP will probably be a hard core Marxist, which will make obama seem like Reagan. We then will be losing all our rights or will be forced to fight.
teufelhund1918
05-07-20, 06:22
If you ever get out towards Colorado Springs, check out the Dragon Man museum.
https://www.dragonmans.com/content/military_museum_dragonmans_colorado_springs
Amazing. Didn't know about this or I would have hit it in a minute when I was out there.
teufelhund1918
05-07-20, 06:28
Let me address Soros.
I believe in freedom and liberty.
However, when you cross over a place where your political views seek to take away the freedom and liberty that our Constitution highlights, then you are no longer legitimate.
I don't care if your on the left or the right.
The left has Soros, Heinz, most hi tech billionaires, that want to impose their elitist world view on the rest of us. These people are evil.
As someone asked would it be immoral and wrong to kill Hitler in 1933 or Stalin maybe a little before this?
Which the British military attache in Berlin pushed for in 1939 if I remember correctly. How much suffering could have been saved, maybe none we will never know.
I will say that this thread along with a few other threads during the lockdown, combined with the government over reach and some of the protest against the over reach has brought me to the following belief.
This election matters. If the president isn't reelected, and the dems lose control of Congress we will not have a good future. If Biden is elected, he will not finish his term. Soon after he will step down or be removed due to the fact the poor man is losing his ability to think. His VP will probably be a hard core Marxist, which will make obama seem like Reagan. We then will be losing all our rights or will be forced to fight.
Alot of people forget about Ollie North advocating for the assassination of Bin Laden during the whole Iran Contra affair. Many thought it was over the top then, but I wonder what those folks would say today.
And it is more than just Soros that is the problem. It is more along the lines of the mentality/theology of those people. I would break it all the way down to good vs evil... on a Biblical level.
I was going to surprise my dad who is with my sister in Hutchinson. But I thought it was better to give him input and he vetoed the trip.
My perception of the family, is that they are very rich. They have supported things that have helped former members of the Army most elite unit. So I think they are good people that love America were born in the USA. They just want the same tank that dad or granddad had in WW2.
I also know of a second high worth family, that post WW2 the grandfather/father went to South America. Built a family empire at such a size and at such a rate, that it is sure they had substantial funds to get thing bought and paid for. The old man also had the SS blood tattoo under his left arm, this was from someone that was part of his security. The old man is dead, but I chose not to be involved with this family.
Thanks, I kind of figured that you wouldn't be involved in helping someone who was trying to glorify the old days.
I live in Hutchinson, don't know if you've visited before. If and when you are in the area I'd be more than happy to buy you supper.
While funny, I think they reached with that one. I think they meant the good old days when you could buy original formula soda, sort of how we get nostalgic with sodas with actual sugar. I'm pretty sure they didn't mean the good old days when everyone was goose stepping in Munich, just as we don't mean the good old days when nuclear annihilation might happen at any moment.
I know the Germans have to be extra careful, double super cautious with their "olden day" references because it's hard to say "oopsie...that was a bad idea" with respect to industrial genocide but at some level you have to come to "we don't forget...but we are moving on."
Also I think Mercedes, BMW and Porsche were much deeper into supporting the nazi war machine than Fanta, and seems few people have problems driving their cars.
Merecedes made vehicles, BMW made a lot of aircraft engines and Porsche worked on some of the Tiger tanks and other mechanical stuff... Zeiss made scopes
Hard to buy something manufactured in Germany now without it having an WW2 involvement if the company was around then..
At least Heckler and Koch was post war
At least Heckler and Koch was post war
Barely. Started by former Mauser employees.
Barely. Started by former Mauser employees.
Yeah, I figured it would be hard to not have personnel involved in the war...
Not up to me the client has got to pony up the money for the project.
A few years ago, I got commissioned to build a 1/35 model Tiger tank a German WW2 vet was in on the Eastern front as part of the Grossdeutschland division. It was presented to him by a bunch of WW2 reenactors at an event in Virginia Beach...
The time I spent on a model would dwarf the time spent if you had to refurb a real one...
Merecedes made vehicles, BMW made a lot of aircraft engines and Porsche worked on some of the Tiger tanks and other mechanical stuff... Zeiss made scopes
Hard to buy something manufactured in Germany now without it having an WW2 involvement if the company was around then..
At least Heckler and Koch was post war
Except they were all former Mauser engineers. They even built HK on the old Mauser site in Oberdorf.
ramairthree
05-09-20, 13:21
The responses here range from well versed and objective to emotional and subjective without being well versed.
I think an important point to remember is people is how much an environment and culture can shape a person.
And how much hindsight and further information could have swayed someone but they didn’t have it.
Someone being a German paratrooper in WWII or Spetsnaz guy in Russia in 1983 does not mean they were evil and read in to everything.
I don’t think anyone here plans on Getting together with some friends this weekend, raiding a church, killing the priest, raping some hot female attendees, then stealing everything.
But if you grew up a dozen centuries ago, and everyone in your village did it for a living, chances are it would seem normal to you.
I am not a proponent of moral relativism and saying it’s right and an equal social behavior.
The responses here range from well versed and objective to emotional and subjective without being well versed.
I think an important point to remember is people is how much an environment and culture can shape a person.
And how much hindsight and further information could have swayed someone but they didn’t have it.
Someone being a German paratrooper in WWII or Spetsnaz guy in Russia in 1983 does not mean they were evil and read in to everything.
I don’t think anyone here plans on Getting together with some friends this weekend, raiding a church, killing the priest, raping some hot female attendees, then stealing everything.
But if you grew up a dozen centuries ago, and everyone in your village did it for a living, chances are it would seem normal to you.
I am not a proponent of moral relativism and saying it’s right and an equal social behavior.
Genesis 8:21
The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth
The German people were just as responsible as Hitler and his lackeys for the atrocities that were committed prior to and during WWII. The German people knew what the Nazis were prior to Hitler taking office, and yet the people supported them anyway and elected them into office. Now, why is that? Because man's heart is evil at its core.
Nazi Germany is what you get when a people worship false gods - Hitler, Aryan supremacy, National Socialism - instead of worshipping the true God, and as a result He at least partially abandons that nation. Hitler actually could have been much worse than he was if it weren't for God's restraining grace. Frankly, it is this same restraining grace that prevents you and I from being the next Hitler because whether we want to admit it or not, our hearts are just as evil as Hitler's was.
Genesis 8:21
The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth
The German people were just as responsible as Hitler and his lackeys for the atrocities that were committed prior to and during WWII. The German people knew what the Nazis were prior to Hitler taking office, and yet the people supported them anyway and elected them into office. Now, why is that? Because man's heart is evil at its core.
Nazi Germany is what you get when a people worship false gods - Hitler, Aryan supremacy, National Socialism - instead of worshipping the true God, and as a result He at least partially abandons that nation. Hitler actually could have been much worse than he was, if it weren't for God's restraining grace. Frankly, it is this same restraining grace that prevents you and I from being the next Hitler because whether we want to admit it or not, our hearts are just as evil as Hitler's was.
It is far more complicated than that. The German people did not support the Nazis in any type of majority in any election leading up to Hitler taking power. The political scene in Germany was fractured among almost a dozen political parties. You can do your own research if you want. I'd have to right a TL/DR post just to begin explaining it.
ramairthree
05-09-20, 17:57
Genesis 8:21
The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth
The German people were just as responsible as Hitler and his lackeys for the atrocities that were committed prior to and during WWII. The German people knew what the Nazis were prior to Hitler taking office, and yet the people supported them anyway and elected them into office. Now, why is that? Because man's heart is evil at its core.
Nazi Germany is what you get when a people worship false gods - Hitler, Aryan supremacy, National Socialism - instead of worshipping the true God, and as a result He at least partially abandons that nation. Hitler actually could have been much worse than he was if it weren't for God's restraining grace. Frankly, it is this same restraining grace that prevents you and I from being the next Hitler because whether we want to admit it or not, our hearts are just as evil as Hitler's was.
I’m not going to deny the desires of man in his natural state without an ameliorating influence.
King Charlemagne beheading 5000 Picts and Saxons for not converting to Christianity based on biblical inspiration when there were about 230 million people in the entire world -
Your quote might as well be:
“Frankish Western Europe is what you get when a people worship flash gods- Charlemagne, God, Jesus - instead of worshipping the true God,”. Charlemagne actually could have been much worse than he was if it weren’t for God’s restraining grace”
Which basically is a way of saying if you want to make a cogent argument, do it without quoting the Bible. There are plenty of examples to use to make the case lots of people are evil and do evil stuff when they get a chance.
My argument is just as valid and cogent as your's. The fact that I use the Bible - which you may not believe - doesn't nullify my position.
Charlemagne or anyone else who has murdered "in the name of Christ" obviously didn't know Jesus, nor had they read his Word, and were in fact serving their own desires and those of a false god of their own creation.
Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."
Matthew 5:43-48"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus is our example, and He never forced anyone to accept Him. It is against Jesus' teachings for me or for anyone else to try to force another person to believe in Him under the threat of physical violence.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
It is far more complicated than that. The German people did not support the Nazis in any type of majority in any election leading up to Hitler taking power. The political scene in Germany was fractured among almost a dozen political parties. You can do your own research if you want. I'd have to right a TL/DR post just to begin explaining it.
Not to mention there were at least 42 attempts on Hitler's life. So clearly not everyone in Germany was excited about Hitler and National Socialism.
I bet more than a few are unknown to most people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler
Not to mention there were at least 42 attempts on Hitler's life. So clearly not everyone in Germany was excited about Hitler and National Socialism.
I bet more than a few are unknown to most people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler
You're talking about a miniscule minority of the German population. Fact of the matter is the vast majority were like minded with the Nazis or else the Holocaust wouldn't have happened. The Wermacht knew what Hitler was and what he would do to the citizens of the nations that they conquered for him, and yet they still fought in his name. They just as easily could have marched on the Reich Chancellory and killed Hitler but they didn't. Hitler sold them a bill of goods and they bought it hook line and sinker.
There have been threads on this forum discussing how our military would never enforce a gun confiscation order if called to do so. I think Nazi Germany is a good example of what we can expect to happen.
ramairthree
05-09-20, 20:14
My argument is just as valid and cogent as your's. The fact that I use the Bible - which you may not believe - doesn't nullify my position.
Charlemagne or anyone else who has murdered "in the name of Christ" obviously didn't know Jesus, nor had they read his Word, and were in fact serving their own desires and those of a false god of their own creation.
Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."
Matthew 5:43-48"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus is our example, and He never forced anyone to accept Him. It is against Jesus' teachings for me or for anyone else to try to force another person to believe in Him under the threat of physical violence.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
Actually, that’s not how things work.
There are plenty of believers in biology, materials science, medicine, engineering, and academics.
When they present an argument regarding the linguistic influences of Castilian and Occitan on the Basque language, they don’t use biblical quotes about the Tower or Babel.
Biblical quotes about metals are not used to discuss the pros and cons of 316L SS as a surgical implant.
Discussions of and research into thrombolytic therapies for pulmonary embolism and considerations regarding the pathophysiology of fat emboli syndrome in comparison are not made with verses from the Bible.
Scripture regarding Noah’s Ark is not used by a zoologist who proposes restructuring the taxonomy of Lycaon pictus based on same chromosome pairs instead of traditional morphology based classification.
Plenty of people in history have read his word and truly thought they were serving the desires of God at great personal sacrifice and loss of personal gain. While doing horrible things, Some think they actually consume the flesh and blood of Christ and have put to death people just like them that think they only symbolically consume the flesh and blood of Christ, or those that believe Jesus is his own being as the son of God and not actually God as part of a trinity.
Luckily you have the exact, completely correct, entirely properly understood version down pat, are practicing the single, exact version of Christianity as intended unlike every single other version or believer of Christianity, and have no need for science, objective historical information, documented facts, research, or reproducible studies.
You will find however, that using them is how grown ups that are educated and intelligent present things.
Not,
My opinion is just as good as anyone’s because I quoted the Bible,
Jesus said “ My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight”
So there.
Ramairthree,
You are partially correct in so far that the Bible is not a science, language, or zoological textbook. But the Bible is a book that addresses morals and the condition of man's heart - among other things - which is exactly what this thread is discussing. Therefore it is just as valid a position to speak from as anyone else's.
I may not have a degree in biology or quantum physics, but I am smart enough to recognize evil when I see it. I'm more amazed by what the "most educated" people don't know.
You're talking about a miniscule minority of the German population.
We are talking about a minuscule part of a population that was representative of a much larger group but did not have opportunity or enough drive to act on their beliefs.
How many people actually go to Washington DC to demonstrate on behalf of second amendment rights? Are they the only ones who feel that way? Or are the representative of a much larger group that shares their beliefs but don't have the means or opportunity to do the same. And when it comes down to actually trying to kill somebody, lots of people might feel that way but very few are going to actually try.
The rest of your assertions are ridiculous.
The entire wehrmacht knew what Hitler was about? That's hilarious, most of the leadership spent the early years worrying that he might replace them with the SA or even the SS, Hitler would have gone along with whatever was most politically expedient for him which ended up being the Night of the Long Knives where he ordered the execution of a lot of people who had helped put him in power up to that point.
And when it started becoming apparent that Hitler wasn't a military genius and they might lose the war, a big part of the nazi leadership DID try to blow him up on a few occasions but that didn't turn out like they hoped it would.
Then there is the fact that murder on this scale wasn't really new or unique. The Japanese did it, the Russians did it and the only thing unique about the Germans is the assembly line level of efficiency that they applied to mass murder.
A lot of people supported the Nazis. They supported the Nazis who reoccupied the Rhineland. They supported the Nazis who threw off the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. They supported the Nazis who created work programs and built the autobahn. They supported the Nazis who defeated their long time enemy France and removed the stigma of losing the first World War. They supported the Nazis who seemingly improved the life of the average German and deposed the people who they were told were undermining German culture...the jews.
People had no reason to believe otherwise and even if they were a critical thinker who could objectively view events most believed that those people were simply being relocated to work camps or away from German land. Hitler even briefly entertained the idea that jews could be deported to Madagascar and if it was politically expedient and fiscally sound he might have even done it.
Hitler did whatever he needed to do to attain power. He told any lie, he went back on any promise he even worked against his own personally espoused beliefs and ideologies when necessary. So the idea that everyone knew what Hitler was about and what he was going to do is absurd, even Hitler didn't know what he was going to do. This is what made him a dangerous and unpredictable enemy. He wasn't "out of the box" like Guderian or Rommel, he actually was making most of it up on the fly.
Certainly Hitler never came up with the Final Solution, that was a bunch of guys who were a lot more educated who took what they were already doing and tried to do it more efficiently, that idea came from Wannsee and the minds of Heydrich and Eichmann. And the one thing we know more than anything else was that they tried to deny the very existence of the idea until the end.
Hitler didn't come to power because he got on a platform and said "My name is Adolf and my plan is to put jews on cattle trains and transport them to murder camps so please vote for me." Even in the beginning most jews assumed his politics were the business as usual anti semetic comments to placate the masses. But saying "I'm going to get jobs for YOU instead of the jews" is a long way from telling everyone that you plan to murder all the jews in Europe and Eurasia.
Also nazi Germany is not, and should not be a model of what we can expect from American law enforcement should gun confiscation come along. Not sure if you really considered the level of that insult to everyone here that works in law enforcement. The really BIG difference is we don't yet live in a totalitarian dictatorship. The second difference is we don't have a single minded, homogeneous population marching along and singing the same song. They might feel that way in NY or CA but you are going to have problems in parts of Texas, Arizona and Nevada. Hell they might run into trouble in NY and CA if they push the apple cart completely over.
Even Canada had widespread noncompliance with gun registration to the point that it was ended and Canada doesn't have a second amendment. Will be interesting to see how effective their most recent ban on all semi autos will be, especially when it comes to the enforcement / confiscation part of the plan.
Interesting reading.
I grew up reading everything I could get my hands on about WWII, but learned some things in this thread.
My only contribution is somewhat irrelevant and anecdotal. My friend’s elderly German neighbor has two large GSD, names Heinrich and Adolph.
Not everyone opposes Hitler even now.
Also nazi Germany is not, and should not be a model of what we can expect from American law enforcement should gun confiscation come along. Not sure if you really considered the level of that insult to everyone here that works in law enforcement. The really BIG difference is we don't yet live in a totalitarian dictatorship. The second difference is we don't have a single minded, homogeneous population marching along and singing the same song. They might feel that way in NY or CA but you are going to have problems in parts of Texas, Arizona and Nevada. Hell they might run into trouble in NY and CA if they push the apple cart completely over.
While not all officers/agencies have took to heavy handedness like ducks to water, the covid response from LE in a widely varying range of areas indicates enough police would support a gun ban to be a problem.
Straight from several horses' mouths, I don't expect many officials in the areas of Texas mentioned will honor their oaths. The polar opposite of the cop in his cruiser indicating his concern and support for liberties.
https://youtu.be/GqD90pgAAlQ
While not all officers/agencies have took to heavy handedness like ducks to water, the covid response from LE in a widely varying range of areas indicates enough police would support a gun ban to be a problem.
Straight from several horses' mouths, I don't expect many officials in the areas of Texas mentioned will honor their oaths. The polar opposite of the cop in his cruiser indicating his concern and support for liberties.
https://youtu.be/GqD90pgAAlQ
Good grief. That’s a painfully long video.
I do not support the behavior of the officers in the video.
But if you think that kind of BS, makes the USA a police state, wow.
The truth is go back 75 years in the USA it was a worse.
Go to some of the places I have been where police pull people out of their cars and beat the hell out of them, knee them down and shoot them at the side of the road.
Then watch the video. It isn't good, but the behavior he showed which I support in other places would have got him shot and his wife raped and maybe a bullet for her also.
I do not support the behavior of the officers in the video.
But if you think that kind of BS, makes the USA a police state, wow.
The truth is go back 75 years in the USA it was a worse.
Go to some of the places I have been where police pull people out of their cars and beat the hell out of them, knee them down and shoot them at the side of the road.
Then watch the video. It isn't good, but the behavior he showed which I support in other places would have got him shot and his wife raped and maybe a bullet for her also.
I didn't share that to debate the degree of bad behavior, but (along with how quarantined are being handled) to point out the idea that LE would not support infringements on 2nd Amendment and other rights is a fallacy. Not all would/will, but those who will do it without question are a significant problem.
While not all officers/agencies have took to heavy handedness like ducks to water, the covid response from LE in a widely varying range of areas indicates enough police would support a gun ban to be a problem.
Straight from several horses' mouths, I don't expect many officials in the areas of Texas mentioned will honor their oaths. The polar opposite of the cop in his cruiser indicating his concern and support for liberties.
https://youtu.be/GqD90pgAAlQ
There will be instances, the worst I think we've ever seen was NOLA confiscations following Katrina. I think that's the first time I've seen them use emergency resources to go door to door to disarm everyone they could find.
I didn't share that to debate the degree of bad behavior, but (along with how quarantined are being handled) to point out the idea that LE would not support infringements on 2nd Amendment and other rights is a fallacy. Not all would/will, but those who will do it without question are a significant problem.
I think a lot of big city police officers will go along with taking peoples guns away.
However the point the prosecuting attorney was making to the guy in the video, is these are small town cops and the jury will side with them. Look that is just human nature, I know officer friendly, our kids play ball together, but you I don't know. Guilty.
That same dynamic probably would play in reverse, "look I am supposed to take your guns, but your a good guy."
The bottom line let's not get to that point.
I think a lot of big city police officers will go along with taking peoples guns away.
However the point the prosecuting attorney was making to the guy in the video, is these are small town cops and the jury will side with them. Look that is just human nature, I know officer friendly, our kids play ball together, but you I don't know. Guilty.
That same dynamic probably would play in reverse, "look I am supposed to take your guns, but your a good guy."
The bottom line let's not get to that point.
Somehow I doubt people that have chosen to engage in wrongful activities want their intended victims armed.
You're talking about a miniscule minority of the German population. Fact of the matter is the vast majority were like minded with the Nazis or else the Holocaust wouldn't have happened. The Wermacht knew what Hitler was and what he would do to the citizens of the nations that they conquered for him, and yet they still fought in his name. They just as easily could have marched on the Reich Chancellory and killed Hitler but they didn't. Hitler sold them a bill of goods and they bought it hook line and sinker.
There have been threads on this forum discussing how our military would never enforce a gun confiscation order if called to do so. I think Nazi Germany is a good example of what we can expect to happen.
This is a gross oversimplification. I would suggest some heavy study of European and World history, with a focus on Germany, starting in the 1800s up through WW2.
As was already mentioned, Hitler did not come to power by acclimation of the people. The country was hugely splintered and back room dealing by Schleicher, Pres von Hindenburg, etc. put Hitler in power (and was done as a way to try and control him -- did not work out that way of course).
Diamondback
05-11-20, 12:56
Also, don't discount the coercive effects of "do as we say or watch your family die." They were real big on that kinda thing, it's how they got Rommel and a number of others to off themselves.
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