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decodeddiesel
11-24-08, 14:15
So here's an interesting "mental masturbation" exercise if you will. It's something I have been thinking about a lot here lately and I would like the input of the good people here at M4C. So my question is, If this were your pistol, and it were your only 1911, what work would you have done with it and why? This pistol is my go to for a secondary in any classes I am planning to attend, is my constant "night stand gun", and will probably see some concealed carry. It is not going to be used in any dynamic entry situations, nor will it be a competition target pistol (maybe some IPSC, that's it though).

The pistol is a SA PX9109LP, which is a "Parkerized Loaded Gov't Size 1911". According to Springfield it comes with the following features:

"Novak low mount rear sight, dovetail front sight, 3-Dot tritium night sights, lightweight aluminum speed trigger, extended ambidextrous thumb safety, flat checkered mainspring housing, beavertail grip safety, delta hammer, cocobolo grips, carry bevel™ all sharp edges of pistol, deburr pistol internally, tune extractor & ejector, recut barrel throat and polish feed ramp, titanium firing pin with heavy duty firing pin spring, tune trigger to 4.5lb pull..."

Here's some pictures, though they do not reflect the current configuration of the pistol:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/1911andauto012.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/more1911005.jpg

Since owning the pistol, I have put about 1200 rounds downrange. While I have been very pleased with the accuracy, the reliability during the first 200 rounds was somewhat lackluster. It has since gone back to Springfield on a RMA and had a "reliability tune up" done. Since then the pistol has been 100% with all brands of 230gr ball and JHPs I have put through it. In addition to that SA did some other things, like tightening up the slide to frame, replace the FLGR with a GI guide rod, soften and contour the edges, replace the ILS with a standard main spring setup, etc. All the extra work was done for free as a "Sorry your pistol wasn't 100%, allow us to make it up to you" kind of thing. I was quite impressed and it really told me I made the right decision...

Currently the pistol is being sent out to Dawson to have a light rail installed, and I picked up a used X200 with the adapter to use with it. As far as what else I have done thus far is add skate board tape to the front strap, a Wilson "Bullet Proof" slide stop, Ed Brown Barrel Bushing, Mil-Tac G10 Grips*, Ed Brown "Snake Skin" drop in Maxi-well/MSH*, 19# mainspring, CMC mags, and that's about it.

(*ditched these parts last weekend, just prefer the Cocobolo grips for looks, and the Maxi-well just didn't fit well)

I love the look of Nighthawk pistols, especially the GRP, and the Heine PDP. I would like to keep some sort of high grip Cocobolo grips, the SA grips are not as grippy as the G10 grips, but they look a lot better IMO. I might get some Gunner grips and swap back and forth between those and the SA Cocobolos. I am leaning towards getting the front strap checkered to 25 lpi, getting the magazine well flared and blended, getting some sort of crown cut into the barrel and bushing, and getting the pistol "coated" in some high speed matte black finish.

What does everyone think? I know I don't have any reliability upgrades listed, but I really don't know what else I should have done to enhance reliability. I mean, currently the pistol is running like a sewing machine with everything from 230gr Blazer, to +P Hornady XTPs. Who would you recommend to have the work done who is reasonably priced and can get it back to me in a reasonable time frame (1 month or less)?

Sorry for the long thread, but I think this could be a good discussion for purposeful upgrades on a common mid-level price point 1911.

Thanks!

TehLlama
11-24-08, 14:24
Since you asked:

Sending mine very soon to Mars Armament for the following:

Dawson Precision Light rail install (with Surefire X300/Adaptor)
S&A Magwell MSH (with custom Stippling texture)
Frontstrap textured (matching Stippling)
Ergo XT Textured slimline grip (Coyote)
GemTech TRL (Coyote)

Also dropping the two-peice guide rod for a conventional Browning GI plug

Already have 5 47D magazines on order, so I'll be a happy camper.

decodeddiesel
11-24-08, 14:30
Since you asked:

Sending mine very soon to Mars Armament for the following:

Dawson Precision Light rail install (with Surefire X300/Adaptor)
S&A Magwell MSH (with custom Stippling texture)
Frontstrap textured (matching Stippling)
Ergo XT Textured slimline grip (Coyote)
GemTech TRL (Coyote)

Also dropping the two-peice guide rod for a conventional Browning GI plug

Already have 5 47D magazines on order, so I'll be a happy camper.

Awesome second post Brother!

Is this one a Springer like mine? What did MARS give you for a time frame for the work? I like where you're going with it.

Stupid question, but what are 47D magazines?

TehLlama
11-24-08, 14:38
It's the Loaded Park model, just like yours.
My quote stated 2-3 weeks, which is outstanding. I'm hoping to get this done by mid-Jan (birthday), which is amazing. Mr. Morrison's work looks outstanding, and it sure beats the 6mo turnaround I was quoted from SA.

The other plus is the mag guide MSH - Mars has cuzomized SA units (I wanted arched w/ lanyard loop and the magweel attachments), for a lot less than the same with a Heine weld-on version with an added lanyard attach point.

Still worth considering just checkering the fronstrap and getting the S&A magwell direct (for flat checkered version), and just picking up a TRL to go with that. It's $30 cheaper, but if checkered is what you're looking for, the S&A units are nice.

I'm influenced primarily by 10-8, but also from my airsoft collection, but the Dawson rail is a great peice of gear. The Loaded Park with Dawson rail is still cheaper than the step up to the Operator railed model, and maintains concealbility. I've seen X200 lights with Dawson adaptors for as little as $150 used.

decodeddiesel
11-24-08, 14:58
I've seen X200 lights with Dawson adaptors for as little as $150 used.

I just grabbed an X200 with the Dawson adapter for $120 ;)

That's an outstanding turnaround for MARS. I may have to move them to the top of the list for possible smiths.

ETA: Can anyone point me towards a MSH with an integrated lanyard loop that is 25 lpi checkered? The Guncrafter Industries MSH is nice, but 20 lpi...

VooDoo6Actual
11-24-08, 15:32
Your SA model is the right one to get for the features and Mods you desire.

I think TehLlama gives good sage advice.

You can get MSH blanks and have the Smith checker them 25 LPI, or Golfball treatment etc. w/ Internal Lanyard attachment.


If your Gun is accurate I would leave it alone. If it is a little off, I would change the barrel to a Nowlin, Bar Sto or KART NM.

Have Steve M. fit the barrel and you will have an awesome 1911.


Good luck on your quest and obtaining Tactical Nirvana.

buzby
11-24-08, 16:28
I have been extremely sastified with my SA PX9109LP. It's a NM serial #, US asembled model, I picked up about 4 yrs ago. It's been 100% with the factory mags and wilson 8rders. I've replaced the FLGR with a Ed Brown GI setup. Recently swaped my Ergo grips with some coyotee brown Gunner grips. Love the Gunners! They aren't as agressive as I thought they would be, and I much prefer them over the stock cocobolo or Ergos. This has been my edc since I got it. Considering the SA reliabilty package, but haven't had any problems so far.

decodeddiesel
11-25-08, 16:01
OK 2 more questions...

1.) what are everyone's thought one 10-8 rear sights? I already have the Novak 3 dot tritium on the gun now so the 10-8 rear would be an easy swap. Does anyone know what height, and could recommend which width rear I would need to use with my standard Novak tritium front?

2.) I would like to hear some opinions and experiences with Springfield's in house custom shop. Prices seem good, work seems solid, but what about turn around time?

VooDoo6Actual
11-25-08, 16:20
1) Those rear sights are nothing new. Chuck Rogers is the Originator of that style some years ago.

They work fine, are robust, good for IAD's (Seam/shoe/hip etc Slide manipulation drills).

http://www.rogersprecision.com/

The issue is preference of notch width and/or front sight width. I like the standard.

It's a PISTOL NOT a BOLT GUN.

2) SA's Custom Shop is TOP SHELF.

NO worries they have built THOUSANDS of GUNS and knows the dealeo VERY well.
Time depends on their Backlog etc... Varies so you will have to call to find out answer to question. Usually, 4 to 6 weeks is NORM. Depends on nature/complexity/processes they are performing per customers request.

decodeddiesel
11-25-08, 16:40
1) Those rear sights are nothing new. Chuck Rogers is the Originator of that style some years ago.

They work fine, are robust, good for IAD's (Seam/shoe/hip etc Slide manipulation drills).

http://www.rogersprecision.com/

The issue is preference of notch width and/or front sight width. I like the standard.

It's a PISTOL NOT a BOLT GUN.

2) SA's Custom Shop is TOP SHELF.

NO worries they have built THOUSANDS of GUNS and knows the dealeo VERY well.
Time depends on their Backlog etc... Varies so you will have to call to find out answer to question. Usually, 4 to 6 weeks is NORM. Depends on nature/complexity/processes they are performing per customers request.

HOPLOETHOS, first of all let me extend my most sincere gratitude. You have answered all of my questions in a knowledgeable, professional manor. It is apparent from your context and perspective you are very versed in the finer points of the 1911 and I appreciate your willingness to share that information. My personal experience with pistols is very limited to those which have been issued to me at one time or another (read M9).

I agree 100% on the accuracy vs. speed debate as it pertains to the 1911. For this reason I was wondering if going with a larger U such as the .140 or .156 would be prudent keeping in mind however that I still like to drill out the x-ring on a target at 50ft every now and then...

I will take your endorsement of Springfield to heart and call them. One thing though. I am quite smitten with the magazine well on the Nighthawk GRP seen here:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/Recon_GRP.jpg

*Image from Nighthawk's website*

Do you think Springfield would be capable of such work? What exactly would you call that?

AvidBlue
11-25-08, 17:45
Here's mine I had Springfield's Custom Shop work on.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/captaindreary/SAI1911LP-1.jpg

The shop completed the following: 20 LPI frontstrap checkering, EGW thick flange bushing install, short trigger install, and action job. Turn-around was 6 weeks. I switched grips, installed a mag well, and dumped the full-length guiderod.

decodeddiesel
11-25-08, 18:02
Here's mine I had Springfield's Custom Shop work on.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/captaindreary/SAI1911LP-1.jpg

The shop completed the following: 20 LPI frontstrap checkering, EGW thick flange bushing install, short trigger install, and action job. Turn-around was 6 weeks. I switched grips, installed a mag well, and dumped the full-length guiderod.

Awesome first post Bro!

OK you guys sold me on the Custom shop. As soon as I get my frame back from Dawson I will be sending it in. :cool:

On my list:


Machine Cut 25 lpi checkering in front strap
Custom flared and blended magazine well
10-8 flat trigger
Undercut front strap
Black T coating
Bevel bottom edge of slide
MAYBE flatten and serrate top of slide
10-8 rear sight (.140 rear notch)
Guncrafter recessed lanyard loop MSH

VooDoo6Actual
11-25-08, 18:23
decodeddiesel,

Happy to help and OFFER an opinion.

That pic of Mag Well is great and nothing new. What is different are subtlies and EACH individuals own interpretation of a MAXED OUT MAG WELL.

I have a few 1911's that are done SIMILARLY but not exact.

I have NEVER had a issue training or Combat on a two way range w/ mag wells.

SA would not execute EXACTLY as Nighthawk does and there lies the DEATAILS you seek.

If you like a particular look/fit/function/form then go with the person(s) who do that STYLE.

My SA Mag wells are different than mine done by Ed Brown, Steve Morrison.

The differences are subtle BUT nonetheless there.

Just have SA do what you want ot NightHawk do their Magwell to get what you want.

If your particular don't be BULLIED by them and by all means do it how you want it.

At this level the Guns pictured here in these POSTS are ALL excellent and just personal preferences IMO.


HTH...

Saginaw79
11-25-08, 18:32
All that I did to mine, was have the feed ramp polished so it'll feed HP better, replaced the grips, and ditched the FLGR for a standard GI setup

BigTime
11-26-08, 00:39
First thing dump that POS ambi safety for a single side safety.

wichaka
11-26-08, 01:31
Get rid of all the junk small parts.......and replace them solid steel internals.

bgoode
11-26-08, 07:00
I'd just shoot it :)

decodeddiesel
11-26-08, 09:25
All that I did to mine, was have the feed ramp polished so it'll feed HP better, replaced the grips, and ditched the FLGR for a standard GI setup

Already done all of this. When I sent it back to SA for a tune up they took care of me. ;)


First thing dump that POS ambi safety for a single side safety.

No good, my wife is a Lefty...


Get rid of all the junk small parts.......and replace them solid steel internals.

I have been thinking about this. I am thinking of a 10-8 trigger, and 10-8 pins, as well as a Wilson Bullet-proof extractor. 2 things though, do I need a "series 70" or a "series 80" and for those who have used them, do them require tuning out of the box or are they good to go?


I'd just shoot it :)

;) Don't get me wrong, I love shooting the pistol just the way it is, but I know she has so much more potential.

Thanks everyone for the replies! I am glad no one has come back with "sell it and buy an HK 45 or M&P 45 or something to that effect..."

TehLlama
11-26-08, 09:43
Thanks everyone for the replies! I am glad no one has come back with "sell it and buy an HK 45 or M&P 45 or something to that effect..."


... a lot of use have the SA LP... speaks for itself!


My planned rebuild will involve a 10-8 trigger, for mostly aesthetic reasons. If you like the stock one, stick with that. If you want a flat, or otherwise different one, the 10-8 is very affordble, and a great trigger. I still wouldn't expect it to be 100% drop-in.

STS
11-26-08, 16:02
Don't get carried away with customizing your 1911. It sounds like right now it is running well. You can spend a ton of money tricking it out, but for what? I've been down that road many a time.

At this point, I'd add a dawson rail, uprgrade the extractor to a Wilson, EGW, or Brown, go with the 10-8 hard pin set, and a flat trigger. Keep the old extractor as a back up and shoot the piss out of the gun. It can more than likely outshoot you now.

It is very easy to sink $500, $800, $1,000 into a 1911 adding more goodies, serrating this, replacing that, etc. After years of doing this, I've learned less is usually more with 1911's.

You have a good frame and slide already, quality sights that work, a beavertail and thumb safety, ok barrel, and a good slide stop. The key is that your gun is currently running well. Ask yourself how much better is it going to be after you drop another $500 on customization - as opposed to how much better you will be if you spend $500 on ammo and train hard.

I'd skip the front strap treatment. Waste of money IMO and I've spent hundreds trying out checkering, serrations, golf balls, dimples, etc. Grip tape is just as good. Easy to put on when you want more grip, easy to take back off if your hands are sore.

One of the best shooters I know is a Armored Security Truck driver here in town. He a bone stock SA loaded just like yours that he has had for years. The finish is gone, he never really talks much, he's overweight and non-descript - but the guy shoots friggin lazer beams. Strong hand, weak hand, prone, kneeling, moving, timed, it doesn't matter - he can shoot your ass off. The secret? He spends all his money on ammo and training and doesn't give a damn about customizing his 1911. I wish I had met him years ago, I'd be a lot richer.

Here is a pic of my SA Loaded. It ran good out of the box. All I did was add a Dawson Rail, dehorn some of the small parts, install a Wilson BP extractor, replace guide rod with Brown GI set up, replace ILS with S&A magwell, and replace all springs with 19 pound mainspring, 17 pound recoil spring and a XP firing spring from Wolff. I was going to replace the grips, but thought "why?" I was only going to do it because the wood was not "cool" enough. But by keeping the stock grips, I saved the money and bought another 200 rds to practice with. I have 10-8 sights on most my guns, but again, why waste the money. the Novaks have bright tritium and work well.

I'd say there are very, very few people on this board who could actually shoot this gun, or yours, to its full accuracy potential. I know I can't. Thats why I'm not dropping $200 on a Kart barrel.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00535.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00536.jpg

decodeddiesel
11-26-08, 17:07
Wow, sage advise Sir!

Your post has served as a "dousing of cold water", but I am very glad you wrote it. I have already ditched the FLGR for a GI, I replaced the ILS with standard Wilson parts and a Wolff 19# mainspring, and the frame is at Dawson right now getting a rail.

As far as upgrading the extractor, will a Wilson BP drop in and work, or require modification and "tuning" to work? I need the series 70 right?

Also Brownells lists a standard power recoil spring at 16# and the 17# is not listed...where did you find the 17# Wolff spring? Did it come with the XP firing pin spring?

Are you happy with the S&A magwell? I had a Brown "Maxi-well" and I didn't care for it, the fit was awe full.

I have the 10-8 standard rear sight in the mail, as well as a 10-8 flat trigger, and hard pins.

R Moran
11-26-08, 17:44
deco,
You've gotten some good advice here, but I'll add a few of my ideas.

First, you must know what you want the gun for. You state training, and self defence(night stand and ccw).

With that in mind, I would tend to look at upgrading the small parts, as mentioned by another poster.

The gun may be reliable now, but for how long? Understand, I am not bashing SA, if I ever decided on another 1911(I have 4 now) SA would probably be my choice. But, the loaded was designed to meet a certain price point, and deliver certain features. it does this by using somewhat cheaper parts, and at least one manufacturing shortcut. And, since this will be your only 1911(only short-gun?) I would look at making the gun not only reliable but durable. Of course I'm sure I'll hear plenty of mine has x amount of rounds thru it comments . Suffice it to say, many shooters have different ideas as to what is alot of rounds.
Look at what goes into a TRP or Pro model.

Any part will most likely need to be handfit, at least for best results. I would look at replacing the extractor, disconnector, sear, and hammer. If your getting a new trigger, you'll need a trigger job anyway, so get it all done at once.
The S&A magwell are GTG, they are one piece and will not twist around the frame on you, but they are not "drop in", at least not if you want the blended look. It may not matter, and I know at least one smith who will tell you not to bother blending it in, regardless of looks.

The barrel is probably one of the two piece parts from SA, and from what I understand generally shoot well enough. But, most people replace them, not just for the added accuracy, but again, durability, perceived or not.

Less is not always more, some times its just less, and sometimes more is more. Just understand why your having the specific work done. One of the best things about a 1911 is its ability to be tailored to the specific shooter and mission.

If you feel 25lpi checkering is what you want, get it, it wont hurt anything but your wallet. Sights are a personal thing also, I did not like the 10-8, I do like the Novak, Hienie,and been trying the Warrens. I prefer a set up that will allow me the most accuracy, not necessarily the most speed.

If this were my only defensive handgun, I would have the SA custom shop do the following..
pin ejector
Short trigger
replace the FCG
Wilson BP extractor, w/ an extra
10-8 slide stop
10-8 mag release
blend a MARS magwell, if you want a lanyard loop, I have one, but now couldn't care less about the loop
Gunner grips
20 or 25lpi checkering on the front strap
match bushing, and maybe a Kart barrel.
18.5 pound recoil spring, xp firing pin spring, ditch the ti firing pin.
use flat head screws thru out

If I had another gun around for defensive use, I'd probably just shoot it, till something gave up the ghost on me, then send it in and have the work done. But keep a close eye on stuff.

If you haven't read Yams articles on the 1911 at his sight, and try and take a LAV 1911 operators class, that's an eye opener.

Bob

decodeddiesel
11-26-08, 23:19
deco,
You've gotten some good advice here, but I'll add a few of my ideas.

First, you must know what you want the gun for. You state training, and self defence(night stand and ccw).

With that in mind, I would tend to look at upgrading the small parts, as mentioned by another poster.

The gun may be reliable now, but for how long? Understand, I am not bashing SA, if I ever decided on another 1911(I have 4 now) SA would probably be my choice. But, the loaded was designed to meet a certain price point, and deliver certain features. it does this by using somewhat cheaper parts, and at least one manufacturing shortcut. And, since this will be your only 1911(only short-gun?) I would look at making the gun not only reliable but durable. Of course I'm sure I'll hear plenty of mine has x amount of rounds thru it comments . Suffice it to say, many shooters have different ideas as to what is alot of rounds.
Look at what goes into a TRP or Pro model.

Any part will most likely need to be handfit, at least for best results. I would look at replacing the extractor, disconnector, sear, and hammer. If your getting a new trigger, you'll need a trigger job anyway, so get it all done at once.
The S&A magwell are GTG, they are one piece and will not twist around the frame on you, but they are not "drop in", at least not if you want the blended look. It may not matter, and I know at least one smith who will tell you not to bother blending it in, regardless of looks.

The barrel is probably one of the two piece parts from SA, and from what I understand generally shoot well enough. But, most people replace them, not just for the added accuracy, but again, durability, perceived or not.

Less is not always more, some times its just less, and sometimes more is more. Just understand why your having the specific work done. One of the best things about a 1911 is its ability to be tailored to the specific shooter and mission.

If you feel 25lpi checkering is what you want, get it, it wont hurt anything but your wallet. Sights are a personal thing also, I did not like the 10-8, I do like the Novak, Hienie,and been trying the Warrens. I prefer a set up that will allow me the most accuracy, not necessarily the most speed.

If this were my only defensive handgun, I would have the SA custom shop do the following..
pin ejector
Short trigger
replace the FCG
Wilson BP extractor, w/ an extra
10-8 slide stop
10-8 mag release
blend a MARS magwell, if you want a lanyard loop, I have one, but now couldn't care less about the loop
Gunner grips
20 or 25lpi checkering on the front strap
match bushing, and maybe a Kart barrel.
18.5 pound recoil spring, xp firing pin spring, ditch the ti firing pin.
use flat head screws thru out

If I had another gun around for defensive use, I'd probably just shoot it, till something gave up the ghost on me, then send it in and have the work done. But keep a close eye on stuff.

If you haven't read Yams articles on the 1911 at his sight, and try and take a LAV 1911 operators class, that's an eye opener.

Bob

Also some great advise and an outstanding post. I have been reading and re-reading Yam's articles, and I have taken a lot of his advise to heart. I think for now I am going to install a few of the 10-8 parts and just shoot my pistol more until something fails.

Rob96
11-28-08, 04:42
Last year I sent my Mil-Spec into the SA Custom Shop for the following:
10-8 long trigger
10-8 rear sight
fitted beavertail
single side extended thumb safety
Delta hammer
4.5# action job
Repark the whole gun

No.6
11-28-08, 06:06
OK, I'm a dummy...what's a FLGR?

Never mind! Just figured it out: Full Length Guide Rod.

decodeddiesel
11-28-08, 06:22
OK, I'm a dummy...what's a FLGR?

Never mind! Just figured it out: Full Length Guide Rod.

Full Length Guide Rod...or Foolish Ludicrous Garbage Rod

maximus83
11-28-08, 13:24
DecoDeDiesel: Nice pistol, and it sounds like you have good ideas for fixing it up.

I recently had my LW Operator go through the Springfield Custom shop, and I am very happy with the 25 lpi machine checkering they added, it was well worth it.

As for work to "reliable-ize" your Loaded, it sounds like the Springfield shop has already done that. Aside from some of the specific upgrades that I think R Moran suggested (consider upgrading your disconnector, sear, hammer, and extractor, and aside from any extras you want like sights or checkering, I think you are good to go. Incidentally, I can vouch for the 10-8 rear sight: I added one recently, and combined with the existing front night sight, it was a nice combo.

One note: if you decide to go through with the upgrade of disconnector, sear, and hammer, I'd suggest buying one of the pre-fit "kits" that include all three of these parts. I have one from Cylinder & Slide in my other 1911, and it produced the smoothest trigger I've ever owned on a 1911. Check out Cylinder & Slide for their 3-piece "trigger pull reduction kits" (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=19113pc), or check out this one (http://shop.berryhillguns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=48) from Dave Berryhill's shop.

decodeddiesel
11-28-08, 13:52
DecoDeDiesel: Nice pistol, and it sounds like you have good ideas for fixing it up.

I recently had my LW Operator go through the Springfield Custom shop, and I am very happy with the 25 lpi machine checkering they added, it was well worth it.

As for work to "reliable-ize" your Loaded, it sounds like the Springfield shop has already done that. Aside from some of the specific upgrades that I think R Moran suggested (consider upgrading your disconnector, sear, hammer, and extractor, and aside from any extras you want like sights or checkering, I think you are good to go. Incidentally, I can vouch for the 10-8 rear sight: I added one recently, and combined with the existing front night sight, it was a nice combo.

One note: if you decide to go through with the upgrade of disconnector, sear, and hammer, I'd suggest buying one of the pre-fit "kits" that include all three of these parts. I have one from Cylinder & Slide in my other 1911, and it produced the smoothest trigger I've ever owned on a 1911. Check out Cylinder & Slide for their 3-piece "trigger pull reduction kits" (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=19113pc), or check out this one (http://shop.berryhillguns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=48) from Dave Berryhill's shop.

Yeah I was looking into it last night and I think I am going to order the Cylinder & Slide "tactical trigger" kit. On yours, did you have to "tension" the sear spring or was it drop in out of the box?

I already have a 10-8 flat trigger, mag release, hardened pins, slide stop, and rear sight on the way. A couple more odds and ends and I am going to leave this pistol for the time being and just shoot the hell out of it. Then if something goes wrong I will piggy back a custom shop trip with my warranty return.

Now a question to anyone who has "dropped in" a Wilson BP extractor. Did it need tuning?

Thanks.

maximus83
11-28-08, 14:17
Yeah I was looking into it last night and I think I am going to order the Cylinder & Slide "tactical trigger" kit. On yours, did you have to "tension" the sear spring or was it drop in out of the box?

I already have a 10-8 flat trigger, mag release, hardened pins, slide stop, and rear sight on the way. A couple more odds and ends and I am going to leave this pistol for the time being and just shoot the hell out of it. Then if something goes wrong I will piggy back a custom shop trip with my warranty return.

Now a question to anyone who has "dropped in" a Wilson BP extractor. Did it need tuning?

Thanks.

I didn't have to adjust anything at all on those parts. One tip: I found that using my existing hammer strut and pin, it didn't want to fit too well into the new hammer. If I did it over again, I think I'd get a new hammer strut pin, and keep that on hand in case you need it (only costs $1 to $1.50). In fact, if you want to replace the MIM hammer strut in your Loaded pistol with a higher quality part--say a titanium one by EGW--this would be a good time to do it, when you drop in your new kit. New EGW hammer strut plus pin, about $13 total at MidwayUSA.com.

slamin
11-28-08, 20:24
Wow, sage advise Sir!

Your post has served as a "dousing of cold water", but I am very glad you wrote it. I have already ditched the FLGR for a GI, I replaced the ILS with standard Wilson parts and a Wolff 19# mainspring, and the frame is at Dawson right now getting a rail.

As far as upgrading the extractor, will a Wilson BP drop in and work, or require modification and "tuning" to work? I need the series 70 right?

Also Brownells lists a standard power recoil spring at 16# and the 17# is not listed...where did you find the 17# Wolff spring? Did it come with the XP firing pin spring?

Are you happy with the S&A magwell? I had a Brown "Maxi-well" and I didn't care for it, the fit was awe full. 10/4 on most of the above posts. BUT it is your gun and put on and do what YOU want if it makes ya feel good do it.
there is nothing as fun as making it your pistol.
good luck with it.kinda makes me want to start another build. maybe I better just fondle the one I have.this post is giving me trouble.it says its to short add 5 more characters.yyhen only some show up.im saveing it anbd whatever happens happen. hope you getthe full post this time

I have the 10-8 standard rear sight in the mail, as well as a 10-8 flat trigger, and hard pins.[/QUOTE]

Eric Torres
11-30-08, 11:19
There is some very good advice above. You can easily spend 300% of the original cost of your gun tricking it out. On the other hand, if it is your only side arm, efficiency, performance, reliability and durability are important.

Every one out there has opinions. Even experienced tactical instructors get stuck in a train of thought and become inflexible. As a result, you need to make the decision of why you want your gun modified.

It works the way it is now. Why do you want to change it? If it is to improve performance then what are you looking to improve? You really have to look at how you shoot. If you are a beginner and/or your form and recoil control is poor (or could improve) then spend the money on getting yourself to quality training. Once the gun is holding you back then spend the money, judiciously, on improving its performance.

Don't choose parts primarily on looks. The G10 grips will give you a better non slip grip. I use those on my CCW and the gunners on everything else.

Guide rods and mag wells/funnels are hotly debated. Neither work miracles, they just improve performance.

Having a FLGR, especially a tungsten, adds a good amount of non moving weight to the front of the gun. This is the farthest point away from the pivot point or the axis of recoil. As a result of the added weight the muzzle will not rise as much if you have proper grip, and stance. Its a simple fact of physics. For non timed target shooting, slow fire, or if you have poor grip, stance, and recoil control the FLGR does not matter. When life is on the line having that weight means shorter split times and faster follow up shots. Some say this only matters in IPSC competition. I say the fight for your life is the most important competition in the world. This is also why I don't advocate .45+P ammo or heavy recoil springs. From personal experience, regular 230gr ball works just fine.

You can drop in a S&A mag well for little money and it is worth every penny. A magazine well increases the target size for inserting your magazine. It will increase your ease and reliability of reload, especially under stress when you should be looking toward your threat instead of the gun. This is another point when you have to make a judgment of where to spend money. If the money would be better spent on getting yourself to good training then that may be a wiser move.

I could go on and on about parts selection, sights, springs... I suggest people learn proper stance and grip, how to do a proper reload, and how to properly deal with malfunctions first, from a good instructor. We all get passionate about our pistols. When in doubt even I refer to paragraph 3. Some times my wife has to remind me.

rob_s
11-30-08, 11:47
Eric makes excellent points.

The 1911, and the AR, seem to lend themselves to pre-shooting modification more than any other platforms (likely due to the over-abundance of possibilities). Tangentially, I see people suggest that new AR owners "build" their first AR from scratch because you can "build it how you want it". How the hell do you know "how you want it" if you've never shot it?

When I first moved from the Glock to the 1911, the first thing I did was take a Randy Cain TH101 with the 1911. It was a bone-stock Kimber Series I and I paid $500 for it. The gun worked through the class, but there were a few things I had issues with and wanted changed. I *thought* I knew how a 1911 should be built before I took the class, and I can't tell you how glad I am that I waited to make any changes until after I had some quality instruction and rounds down range. In some cases it just saved me wasting money on things I no longer wanted/needed, and in other cases it saved me making irreversible changes to the gun that I would have regretted.

Based on what I know, and my preferences, the changes I'd make to your gun would be:
1) 10-8 or similar plain black sight
2) Trijicon white-outline tritium front sight
3) GI-length guide rod
4) High cut front strap (with re-parkerize)
5) 10-8 or other solid trigger (10-8 preferred for lack of set screw hole)
6) Single-side or Kimber ambi safety
7) VZ Double Diamond G10 Grips (with flathead grip screws)
8) Competent gunsmith triggerjob and reliability job (probably unnecessary, but it makes me feel better)

As a side note, what really gripes my ass is that the above is probably double+ the base price of the gun, when it would cost Springfield $0 to do all of these things (with the exception of perhaps the grips and sights) from the factory.

I'm holding out hope that the new Charles Daly Defense 1911s will address most of these issues and become, if nothing else, a good base platform with no extra machining required and leaving only drop-in and fine-tune parts to replace. The high-cut and refinish alone is a pretty big expense that would cost the maker nothing in the initial machining.

decodeddiesel
11-30-08, 12:49
Rob and Eric, thank you so much for your input to this thread.

I suppose I should have mentioned, I do have some formal training with a pistol, that being the M9 when I was in the Army. However I would not consider it comprehensive, nor up to date compared with the civilian courses currently offered. I have extensive training on the M4 which I received in the 101st and vindicated during my 2 tours in Iraq. I have fired an M9 on a 2 way range, so I wouldn't put myself in the amateur category, but I would put myself in the amateur 1911 operator category. I am looking to take a modern pistol class, and was hoping to attend the Magpul Dynamics class here in Colorado but I have a scheduling conflict...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/BRODERICK_7.jpg

I decided I am going to wait to send the pistol into the custom shop for now. I have a list of parts I am going to add which are currently on order...


Cylinder and Slide "Tactical 2" drop in trigger kit
10-8 flat trigger
10-8 std rear sight
10-8 extended mag release
10-8 hardened pins
10-8 slide stop
Wolff 17# recoil spring
Wolff XP firing pin spring
Ed Brown bbl bushing
Ed Brown GI Rod and Plug
CMC 8rnd Power Mags
Guncrafter Industries Lanyard MSH
Dawson Rail with X200
"Skateboard Tape" Front Strap Treatment


After these modifications are complete I will attempt to shoot 1000 rounds out of it (maintaining a log) and see what breaks or what malfunctions I get. If and when I do I will send it back to SA and have them fix the issues and do the following:


Tune and fit Wilson BP extractor
Fit oversized firing pin stop
High cut front strap
Checker front strap 25 lpi
Blend magazine well
Black T coating

Steel
12-06-08, 19:14
I have a SA Loaded Operator. I wouldn't change a thing if she is running %100. Don't fix what ain't broken. The light rail is all good and stuff like grips, magwells, sights, etc....etc are personal choice. Only thing I would add to my Operator would be a magwell and a regular low profile thumb safety instead of the ambi.


Heres Mine
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/Steel85/DSC01024.jpg

bgoode
12-06-08, 20:20
The only thing I added was a single sided safety, GI recoil spring guide rod/plug and more guns :)

toddackerman
12-07-08, 01:11
Here's what I did to my loaded overhaul:

I didn't replace the barrel, Beaver Tail Grip safety or front sight.


Item Cost
Basic Gun Bought Used $600
Spring Kit, Mainspring, Recoil Spring, Firing Pin Spring $14
Wilson Deluxe Hammer 299B $48
Wilson Sear Spring 417 $7
Wilson Extended Ejector 34 $30
Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor 415,70 $30
Wilson Deluxe Sear 314 $17
10-8 Slide Lock $35
Wilson Extended Thumb Safety 6B $32
10-8 Rear Sight .140" $35
10-8 Hard Pin Set $15
Wilson Firing Pin Stop $17
Wilson Disconnector $15
Wilson Hammer Strut $4
Simonich Gunner Grips $65
Ed Brown Recoil Spring Plug $8
Ed Brown Recoil Spring Guide $15
Greider Short Trigger $17
Grip Screws $4
Checkering $175
Gun Kote $30
Total $1,213

Plus I didn't assess a cost for my labor time.

dojpros
12-07-08, 01:13
STS is on fire with his answers.

1. Sights you can see
2. Replace the FLGR with a standard GI set up
3. 3m anti slip tape on the front strap
4. grips that work with your hands
5. ammo and training



"Get a Better Grip on Your Working Gun"
vcdgrips.com

decodeddiesel
12-07-08, 11:34
Here's what I did to my loaded overhaul:

I didn't replace the barrel, Beaver Tail Grip safety or front sight.


Item Cost
Basic Gun Bought Used $600
Spring Kit, Mainspring, Recoil Spring, Firing Pin Spring $14
Wilson Deluxe Hammer 299B $48
Wilson Sear Spring 417 $7
Wilson Extended Ejector 34 $30
Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor 415,70 $30
Wilson Deluxe Sear 314 $17
10-8 Slide Lock $35
Wilson Extended Thumb Safety 6B $32
10-8 Rear Sight .140" $35
10-8 Hard Pin Set $15
Wilson Firing Pin Stop $17
Wilson Disconnector $15
Wilson Hammer Strut $4
Simonich Gunner Grips $65
Ed Brown Recoil Spring Plug $8
Ed Brown Recoil Spring Guide $15
Greider Short Trigger $17
Grip Screws $4
Checkering $175
Gun Kote $30
Total $1,213

Plus I didn't assess a cost for my labor time.

Todd, this is sounding a lot like what I am doing with mine with a couple differences. I am getting a Dawson rail installed on the pistol (currently the frame is at Dawson) and I picked up a used X200 with the adapter for it. Other parts I have collected which I am going to be installing:


10-8 rear sight (standard notch for now)
10-8 flat trigger
10-8 slide stop
10-8 hardened pins
10-8 flat head grip screws
10-8 extended magazine release
Cylinder and Slide "Tactical 2" drop in hammer, sear, disconnector
Wolff 19# mainspring, 17# recoil spring, XP firing pin spring
Ed Brown GI Rod and Plug
Ed Brown Barrel Bushing
Ed Brown single sided extended safety (waiting on this till I am sure I can fit it myself)
Guncrafter 20lpi checkered Mainspring housing w/lanyard loop
Mil-Tac G10 grips (probably going to replace these with either Simonich Gunner grips if I come across some on the for-sale forums for a good price, or VZ Aliens)
3M Skateboard tape (Thanks to RedMan* for this, the guy was kind enough to go out of his way for a stranger and send me some free of charge ;))


Like I said after these mods I am going to put 1000 rounds of mixed 230gr Ball downrange maintaining a log of type of shooting (slow fire, rapid fire, double taps, etc.), rounds between lube and cleaning, likes/dislikes, and see where the pistol sits. I am still planning on sending it in to Springfield eventually for a front strap treatment and high cutting the front strap, blending out the frame magwell, and refinishing.

Thanks for all the replies to this thread! Keep it coming!

decodeddiesel
12-13-08, 14:08
Well I did some amateur gunsmithing this morning and install the items listed in this thread. A couple things...

The 10-8 sight took a lot of time and patience with a file to fit.
The 10-8 trigger was slightly oversized but the install went very smoothly just a few file strokes.
The 10-8 mag release does not fit the SA frame very well at all. It works now, but it needs more filing.
The Cylinder and Slide drop in kit was just that, a complete drop in. The trigger is so nice now it's outrageous.
The Dawson rail is nice, but my TLR-1 with the C4 LED is far brighter than the X200.
Springfield apparently pinned my ejector when it was there which is nice.
About all I NEED to do now is replace the stupid SA ambi safety (which sucks and keeps coming loose) with a Brown single sided safety.


Anyway here's the pics...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/MirhanAuto1911005.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/MirhanAuto1911011.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/MirhanAuto1911016.jpg

maximus83
12-13-08, 14:18
Nice work doing it yourself, Deco!

Just curious, as I'm interested in the 10-8 trigger as well: Could you tell an immediate improvement between the 10-8 trigger and your factory trigger, after installing? Was it worth it?

Added: BTW, I'm glad you decided to go with the C&S trigger upgrade kit. That has been the best $100 I ever dropped into a 1911!

decodeddiesel
12-13-08, 14:34
Nice work doing it yourself, Deco!

Just curious, as I'm interested in the 10-8 trigger as well: Could you tell an immediate improvement between the 10-8 trigger and your factory trigger, after installing? Was it worth it?

Added: BTW, I'm glad you decided to go with the C&S trigger upgrade kit. That has been the best $100 I ever dropped into a 1911!

Just with dry firing i can say yes the 10-8 trigger is quite different. Honestly though the C&S Tactical set made the biggest difference. it is amazing.

maximus83
12-13-08, 14:36
Just with dry firing i can say yes the 10-8 trigger is quite different. Honestly though the C&S Tactical set made the biggest difference. it is amazing.

Yes, on my Loaded pistol that I put the C&S kit on last year, it has become the smoothest trigger on any 1911 I've had, and yet the trigger itself is the factory one. The only items that I changed out were what came in the kit: hammer, sear, disconnector. That's why I'm wondering whether it's really worth upgrading my trigger on my other pistol, or whether to just get another C&S kit (I'm leaning toward C&S).

decodeddiesel
12-13-08, 14:42
Yes, on my Loaded pistol that I put the C&S kit on last year, it has become the smoothest trigger on any 1911 I've had, and yet the trigger itself is the factory one. The only items that I changed out were what came in the kit: hammer, sear, disconnector. That's why I'm wondering whether it's really worth upgrading my trigger on my other pistol, or whether to just get another C&S kit (I'm leaning toward C&S).

That's a tough call. I do really like this trigger.

Turnkey11
03-16-09, 17:01
Rob and Eric, thank you so much for your input to this thread.

I suppose I should have mentioned, I do have some formal training with a pistol, that being the M9 when I was in the Army. However I would not consider it comprehensive, nor up to date compared with the civilian courses currently offered. I have extensive training on the M4 which I received in the 101st and vindicated during my 2 tours in Iraq. I have fired an M9 on a 2 way range, so I wouldn't put myself in the amateur category, but I would put myself in the amateur 1911 operator category. I am looking to take a modern pistol class, and was hoping to attend the Magpul Dynamics class here in Colorado but I have a scheduling conflict...

I was the training NCO/Armorer for a active duty unit here a few years back that had grown to approx. 800 soldiers prior to transformation into a new battalion, I scheduled and ran every range and training event prior to our OIF deployment in 2006. After we got home in 2007 I had the opportunity to attend a class taught locally by Travis and Eric where I was thoroughly schooled through the ass on the M9 by the two of them. There is no comparison between what you learn in the big Army and what these guys will teach you, if you have the opportunity to attend a Magpul Dynamics class jump on it, there is nothing out there like it.

R_CRUZ
03-16-09, 21:14
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/yucapote/Guns/SA1911008.jpg


Replaced ILS, #23 lbs mainspring (Wolff)
GI Guide Rod and Plug, #16 lbs recoil spring (Wolff)
Griptape on front strap
Alumagrips
Wilson #188 magwell
Cylinder & Slide ignition parts and short trigger



This is my CCW and it just passed the 9k mark. The only problems ocurred about a year ago: loose ejector, plunger tube, and grip bushings; SA took care of them (the gun did not malfuntioned, though). Right now the gun no longer has the MMC adjustable rear sigth, I went back to Novak's. The MMC broke during a IPSC match.

Bigun
03-17-09, 02:31
So here's an interesting "mental masturbation" exercise if you will. It's something I have been thinking about a lot here lately and I would like the input of the good people here at M4C. So my question is, If this were your pistol, and it were your only 1911, what work would you have done with it and why? This pistol is my go to for a secondary in any classes I am planning to attend, is my constant "night stand gun", and will probably see some concealed carry. It is not going to be used in any dynamic entry situations, nor will it be a competition target pistol (maybe some IPSC, that's it though).

The pistol is a SA PX9109LP, which is a "Parkerized Loaded Gov't Size 1911". According to Springfield it comes with the following features:

"Novak low mount rear sight, dovetail front sight, 3-Dot tritium night sights, lightweight aluminum speed trigger, extended ambidextrous thumb safety, flat checkered mainspring housing, beavertail grip safety, delta hammer, cocobolo grips, carry bevel™ all sharp edges of pistol, deburr pistol internally, tune extractor & ejector, recut barrel throat and polish feed ramp, titanium firing pin with heavy duty firing pin spring, tune trigger to 4.5lb pull..."

Here's some pictures, though they do not reflect the current configuration of the pistol:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/1911andauto012.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/more1911005.jpg

Since owning the pistol, I have put about 1200 rounds downrange. While I have been very pleased with the accuracy, the reliability during the first 200 rounds was somewhat lackluster. It has since gone back to Springfield on a RMA and had a "reliability tune up" done. Since then the pistol has been 100% with all brands of 230gr ball and JHPs I have put through it. In addition to that SA did some other things, like tightening up the slide to frame, replace the FLGR with a GI guide rod, soften and contour the edges, replace the ILS with a standard main spring setup, etc. All the extra work was done for free as a "Sorry your pistol wasn't 100%, allow us to make it up to you" kind of thing. I was quite impressed and it really told me I made the right decision...

Currently the pistol is being sent out to Dawson to have a light rail installed, and I picked up a used X200 with the adapter to use with it. As far as what else I have done thus far is add skate board tape to the front strap, a Wilson "Bullet Proof" slide stop, Ed Brown Barrel Bushing, Mil-Tac G10 Grips*, Ed Brown "Snake Skin" drop in Maxi-well/MSH*, 19# mainspring, CMC mags, and that's about it.

(*ditched these parts last weekend, just prefer the Cocobolo grips for looks, and the Maxi-well just didn't fit well)

I love the look of Nighthawk pistols, especially the GRP, and the Heine PDP. I would like to keep some sort of high grip Cocobolo grips, the SA grips are not as grippy as the G10 grips, but they look a lot better IMO. I might get some Gunner grips and swap back and forth between those and the SA Cocobolos. I am leaning towards getting the front strap checkered to 25 lpi, getting the magazine well flared and blended, getting some sort of crown cut into the barrel and bushing, and getting the pistol "coated" in some high speed matte black finish.

What does everyone think? I know I don't have any reliability upgrades listed, but I really don't know what else I should have done to enhance reliability. I mean, currently the pistol is running like a sewing machine with everything from 230gr Blazer, to +P Hornady XTPs. Who would you recommend to have the work done who is reasonably priced and can get it back to me in a reasonable time frame (1 month or less)?

Sorry for the long thread, but I think this could be a good discussion for purposeful upgrades on a common mid-level price point 1911.

Thanks! Replace the factory internals namely sear, disconector, hammer, extractor, firing pin stop with either Ed Brown hardcore or Wilson parts, My disconector on my Loaded had molding lines running the full length of the part including mating surfaces and they looked like they were fitted by a monkey. Trigger pull was a creapy 8lbs. Now is right at 4lbs and crisp without creap. This is a NM serial numbered gun so assembled here but without much attention to detail.

adh
03-17-09, 15:28
What would you do with a PX9109LP (SA Loaded)

Well, even though I've replaced the FL guide rod with GI and the extractor with a Wilson bullet proof and have a Wilson bullet proof extended ejector waiting to be fitted to mine, I'm going to sell it and get another Glock.

OHHHHHHHH The Horror, to some yes, but I can't jsutify shelling out that much cash to get a 1911 where I want it to be. Even with the grip reworked by Boresight solutions, I can get a Glock where I want it to be for well less than the 1911...heck probably two of them

varoadking
03-18-09, 17:57
What would you do with a PX9109LP (SA Loaded)

If it shot well, likely nothing, other than putting a decent set of stocks on it.

decodeddiesel
03-18-09, 22:34
How it stands today:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/1911001.jpg

I am going to send it in to SA for 25lpi front strap checkering and Black Armory Coat.

VooDoo6Actual
03-19-09, 07:42
Nice job.

Well thought out components.

decodeddiesel
06-07-09, 21:53
I have one last issue (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32095) to wring out then I am done with this pistol. As it stands I am at around $1100-$1200 for this pistol.


Springfield Armory PX9109LP
Replaced ILS with 25lpi checkered Nighthawk MSH. Replaced ILS guts with Wilson hardened parts and pins, 23# Wolff mainspring.
Wolff 17# recoil spring, XP firing pin spring
Beveled and blended the magazine well by hand
Wilson complete hardened pin set
C&S Tactical II ignition set
Ed Brown single sided safety
Ed Brown GI plug and guide rod
Properly staked plunger tube
Ed Brown "Hardcore" Extractor
25lpi machine cut front strap
High-cut front strap, Colt style
VZ Alien Grips
10-8 slide stop
10-8 flat trigger
10-8 rear sight
EGW over-sized firing pin stop
EGW oversized barrel bushing
Dawson Rail
SF X200A
Black Armory Kote
CMC 8 round Power mags (considering using the Tripp upgrade kits)


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/1911alienstormpics002-1.jpg

SwatDawg15
06-08-09, 01:53
Man its came along way. Looks great, and once the last issue is fixed, it should be a great 1911. Good job on the work

decodeddiesel
06-08-09, 15:57
Man its came along way. Looks great, and once the last issue is fixed, it should be a great 1911. Good job on the work

Thanks Man!

civilian
06-08-09, 16:05
I sent mine off to Dave Erickson at Condition One Pistolsmithing and it came back looking like this:

http://www.pbase.com/ashinoyu/image/111155656/large.jpg

decodeddiesel
06-08-09, 16:18
Looks great. I dig the 2 tone.

loupav
06-09-09, 19:12
I'm not fond of the grips. But on a 1911's, I never am.

I would buy another one. My philosophy is "two is one, one is none."

If that is your carry gun, and your only carry gun, what if it were to break and/or need service tomorrow?

I have two P2000's for the same reason. (well actually I have four, but that's beside the point!) :D

loupav
06-09-09, 19:19
Never mind. I like the grips in the pic above. They look awesome. It was the ones in the first post I was referring to.

decodeddiesel
07-28-09, 11:53
Little Update: Got something different in the works for my sights. I'll post back when I get my slide back with the sights from the shop. :D

HK45
07-30-09, 19:31
Even though I'm off 1911's I always like this one as being very cost effective. here is some interesting stuff on parkerized 1911's from XavierThoughts;

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/search?q=parkerized

Bowser
12-10-10, 00:34
Sorry for bringing up such an old thread, but I had to post in it so I could keep track of this for later reading again.

bgoode
12-10-10, 02:56
Bowser
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