View Full Version : Brass resizing advice
Looking for suggestions and advice for full length resizing .308 Win brass. I have a collection of once fired FGMM 308Win brass from a non-reloading friend. He shot it through a bolt gun and I am attempting to full length resize before loading for my bolt gun. I am currently using a new Hornady custom full length resizing die with expander to resize. I am aware of better reloading techniques that yield better results by not using an expander ball. I already have separate body and neck dies on hand to mimic Markm's technique for brass that has been fired through my rifle.
Issue: When I am on the upstroke, it seems the expander sticks and drags on the neck mouth. No issue on initial down stroke.
Brass was wet tumbled/dried and lube applied outside the case and inside the case mouth (homebrew dillon case lube). Doing some research, it seems some like to use dry mica on the case mouth to smooth out the expander being pulled through. Others just remove the expander ball and use a lyman M die or a Sinclair expander mandrel.
Before I go off and buy either or both options above, I figured I would see what others are doing. Suggestions?
I just went from a standard expander ball to a Sinclair expander mandrel, huge difference. The standard die will size the neck close to .010, the expander ball has to to just that and it over works the brass. I also picked up a Lee universal decapper. I've heard of some using a standard die and having it honed and some using a bushing only and some a bushing that's sizes the neck down slightly more than required and then a mandrel.
Easiest? lube the inside neck and run it.
Remove Eball and pick up a decapper and mandrel
third -beat head against wall as you crawl from the rabbit hole
That drag is not acceptable. It'll mess with your headspace if it's bad enough. Plus case trimming hell. If I'm doing something with tight necks, I apply lube with a soaking wet qtip to make sure it's thoroughly lubed; then dry tumble it off.
You wet tumbled your cases and I bet you have peened case mouths, try and deburr the case mouth and see if the sizing improves.
Your Hornady die should have a well tapered expander and a VLD deburring tool has a sharper 22 degree taper to better remove the case mouth peening.
https://i1.wp.com/10ring.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/VLD_Deburring_Tool_Trim_Mate_1945.jpg?fit=250%2C185&ssl=1
I'll try using more lube and seeing if that will help before buying anything else.
Not sure how the deburring tool will help on the upstroke... I've already passed the case mouth on the down stroke and the expander is inside the case. Regardless, I plan to debur the case mouth after I trim.
Not sure how the deburring tool will help on the upstroke... I've already passed the case mouth on the down stroke and the expander is inside the case.
That, and very often my necks get dented out of round so that the deburring tool can't cut evenly. I do love the VLD cutter though. In a pinch it can remove primer crimps on 5.56 brass as well.
Issue: When I am on the upstroke, it seems the expander sticks and drags on the neck mouth. No issue on initial down stroke.
If the case mouth sticks and drags on the initial upstroke of the ram the only things I can think of are dented case mouths or case mouth peening and not enough inside deburring.
You need to look at the case mouth with a good magnifying glass, this will tell you a story. If you have case mouth peening you will see brass flakes inside the neck and on the expander.
PracticalRifleman
05-11-20, 11:03
For case neck sizing, do NOT use an expander ball in any situation. You can FL size and neck size in one step with a Redding Type-S with the expander removed. Expand in a separate step with a Sinclair expander mandrel. I’d recommend carbide over TiN.
The problem is on your downstroke with the expander ball, it has a tendency to create ovals (induced runout) of your necks as well as inducing stretch. The result is larger extreme spread and standard deviation, more trimming, and the potential for pressure spikes.
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For case neck sizing, do NOT use an expander ball in any situation. You can FL size and neck size in one step with a Redding Type-S with the expander removed. Expand in a separate step with a Sinclair expander mandrel. I’d recommend carbide over TiN.
The problem is on your downstroke with the expander ball, it has a tendency to create ovals (induced runout) of your necks as well as inducing stretch. The result is larger extreme spread and standard deviation, more trimming, and the potential for pressure spikes.
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The Redding bushing dies come with a expander and at the Redding bushing die FAQ they tell you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to use the expander.
Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. Bottom line the expander pushes the neck thickness variations to the "OUTSIDE" of the neck. And this why all dies come with a expander.
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.
Below the 6.5 Guys video below show that they get less neck runout with a Forster full length die vs a Redding bushing die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac3iDJxDgxk
PracticalRifleman
05-11-20, 15:55
The Redding bushing dies come with a expander and at the Redding bushing die FAQ they tell you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to use the expander.
Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. Bottom line the expander pushes the neck thickness variations to the "OUTSIDE" of the neck. And this why all dies come with a expander.
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.
Below the 6.5 Guys video below show that they get less neck runout with a Forster full length die vs a Redding bushing die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac3iDJxDgxk
Redding may suggest as such, but it isn’t gospel. All dies come with an expander so that one can simply buy a set of dies and load ammo without additional tools.
One has to ask, does the outside of the neck or the inside of the neck come into contact with the bullet? Many many many many benchrest shooters use the method I describe (most of which turn necks but not all) with good results.
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For case neck sizing, do NOT use an expander ball in any situation.
I agree. If it's worth reloading, it's worth doing it right.
And how many here have tested a Forster full length die with a expander vs using a expander die or a Lee Collet die for neck runout.
I have tested all three methods and prefer using Forster full length dies with their high mounted floating expander. And just because you use a expander die doesn't mean the case neck will have less neck runout than using a Forster die.
Below the Forster die with its high mounted floating expander. The case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck.
https://i.imgur.com/CzNnpuh.jpg
Below I installed a Forster expander and spindle assembly on my Redding .243 die and reduced neck runout. Many people forget to lube the inside of the case neck and polish the expander.
https://i.imgur.com/kWbieba.jpg
Below a closeup macro photo of a RCBS expander, and I would never use a expander like this until it was polished smooth.
https://i.imgur.com/5Rqdvuh.jpg
Doing some research, it seems some like to use dry mica on the case mouth to smooth out the expander being pulled through.
Do this to start. I have the exact same die set that you're using. I use a case neck brush sprinkled with dry mica to help the expander ball go through the neck with very little force. Try this and see if it works. I've loaded tons of cartridges and am very happy with the results. If you find that you're not happy with the results, then move on to something more involved.
Do this to start. I have the exact same die set that you're using. I use a case neck brush sprinkled with dry mica to help the expander ball go through the neck with very little force. Try this and see if it works. I've loaded tons of cartridges and am very happy with the results. If you find that you're not happy with the results, then move on to something more involved.
On 5.56 I use One Shot spray lube (if you use it correctly, it WILL work every time). I make sure a little gets sprayed inside the case necks, and I've never had a problem with either sizing or expanding, using a plain old RCBS set.
I apply Imperial dry case mouth lube before applying Hornady Unique case lube to the body. It takes a little bit longer than using spray on lube, but I see better results with my bolt action reloads. If I find the expander ball dragging too much on the return stroke, I increase the amount of dry case mouth lube applied.
I segregate brass for bolt action reloads and neck size brass after the first firing. I only full length resize if the brass is not concentric.
On 5.56 I use One Shot spray lube (if you use it correctly, it WILL work every time). I make sure a little gets sprayed inside the case necks, and I've never had a problem with either sizing or expanding, using a plain old RCBS set.
This is me as well. Been doing it that way for 40 years.
PracticalRifleman
05-22-20, 09:35
On 5.56 I use One Shot spray lube (if you use it correctly, it WILL work every time). I make sure a little gets sprayed inside the case necks, and I've never had a problem with either sizing or expanding, using a plain old RCBS set.
What kind of runout do you get? What kind of ES/SD?
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Take a Good Look at Mighty Armory's Resizing Die. Here is a video of Wayne demo-ing his 223 resizing die. I am going to pick up a 223, 308 and his new 30-06 resizing die from him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th7RnGljXv8
Sear youtube for more Mighty Armory Videos
I apply Imperial dry case mouth lube before applying Hornady Unique case lube to the body. It takes a little bit longer than using spray on lube, but I see better results with my bolt action reloads. If I find the expander ball dragging too much on the return stroke, I increase the amount of dry case mouth lube applied.
I segregate brass for bolt action reloads and neck size brass after the first firing. I only full length resize if the brass is not concentric.
I don't understand why you would use an expander ball on Bolt gun ammo. I don't even use it on gas gun ammo.
The Lee Collet neck die is so much easier and nicer. Plus... you reduce neck runout massively, and case trimming to varying degrees.
I use an expander ball so that the neck internal diameter is consistent regardless of the case wall thickness at the neck. I've never used a Lee collet neck die, but from what I've seen it does the same thing in a different manner.
PracticalRifleman
06-16-20, 09:48
I use an expander ball so that the neck internal diameter is consistent regardless of the case wall thickness at the neck. I've never used a Lee collet neck die, but from what I've seen it does the same thing in a different manner.
Most people these days have learned that an expanded mandrel in a separate step minimizes runout and better preserves cartridge dimensions than expanding during sizing.
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I use an expander ball so that the neck internal diameter is consistent regardless of the case wall thickness at the neck. I've never used a Lee collet neck die, but from what I've seen it does the same thing in a different manner.
It does exactly that without all the downside of an expanderball. No need to lube inside the neck, no runout, no case stretch, etc. Plus, the dies are cheap... wear one out, and get another for $19 or whatever.
Interesting. I may give one a try the next time I place an order. I've never really had an issue with using an expander ball though. Plus, I might not be a good enough shot for it to matter. I'm currently able to make ammo that out shoots the factory match grade stuff, so that keeps me satisfied. Still, if I can do better, why not.
The best part about reloading is the person doing the reloading decides how to do it
I have the Lee collet dies, redding bushing dies, standard RCBS and Lee dies and I prefer the Forster full length dies.
Below are how much diffrent .223 dies work the neck and then you also have neck thickness that effects the amount of pull on the neck.
https://i.imgur.com/h8kDITq.jpg
Below are just some of my .223 dies I have tested for neck runout after sizing. And the Forster die produce the same or less runout than the Lee collet die or using a expander die.
https://i.imgur.com/pltdloo.jpg
There is a very simple solution to reducing the pull on the case neck, polish the expander and lube the inside of the case neck. And using the dies expander is not the end of the world when it is set up properly to reduce neck runout.
Below I replaced all my RCBS expanders with Forster high mounted floating expanders. The Forster expanders enters the case neck when it is held and centered in the neck of the die. meaning the forster expander can not pull the necks off center.
https://i.imgur.com/5kfnKwd.jpg
Yes the Lee collet die or a expander die works very well, "BUT" I get the same results with a Forster die and only have to size the case once. The military conciders ammunition that has .003 or less bullet runout to be match grade ammunition. And most dies if setup properly can achieve .003 or less neck runout and even a cheap Lee full length die like below.
The Lee expander is held and centered by its locking collet, and with many other dies the expander can be locked down off center.
https://i.imgur.com/QC9xK5D.jpg
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamutop01.png
Accuracy Potential of Mil-Surp 5.56×45 Brass
So, how accurate can previously-fired GI surplus brass be in a good National Match AR-15? Well, here’s a data point from many years ago that might be of interest. A High Power shooter who wrote for the late Precision Shooting magazine took a Bill Wylde-built AR match rifle to a registered Benchrest match. His first 5-round group ever fired in a BR match was officially measured at 0.231″ at 200 hundred yards. This was fired in front of witnesses, while using a moving target backer that confirmed all five rounds were fired.
He recounted that his ammo was loaded progressively with factory 52gr match bullets and a spherical powder using mixed years of LC brass with no special preparation whatsoever. Obviously, this was “exceptional”. However, he had no difficulty obtaining consistent 0.5-0.6 MOA accuracy at 200 yards using LC brass and a generic “practice” load that was not tuned to his rifle.
TECH Tip: How to Reduce Run-Out with Seating Dies
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/06/tech-tip-how-to-reduce-run-out-with-seating-dies/
NOTE, below the Army Marksmanship Unit is using Hornady OneShot to lube their cases.
Slick Tricks: Techniques and Tools for Big-Batch Case Lubrication
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/09/slick-tricks-techniques-and-tools-for-big-batch-case-lubrication/
http://accurateshooter.net/junepix/biglube01.jpg
http://accurateshooter.net/junepix/biglube1605.jpg
Hand-Loading for Semi-Auto Service Rifles — Six Key Rules
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/12/hand-loading-for-semi-auto-service-rifles-six-key-rules/
RULE ONE: Service Rifles Are Not Benchrest Rifles
Gas-guns require a relatively loose fit between ammunition and chamber (vs. bolt actions) for safe, smooth operation. Many techniques, such as neck sizing and keeping cartridge headspace quite tight, are popular in the extreme bolt gun accuracy realm. However, they are of little value with Service Rifles, and some could even be hazardous. Before adopting a specialized technique, seriously consider whether it is appropriate and beneficial in a gas-gun.
RULE THREE: Tailor the Precision to Your Individual Skill and Your Rifle’s Potential
This has been addressed here before, but bears repeating for newcomers. If you are struggling to break out of the Marksman Class, or using a CMP M1 “As-Issued,” then laboriously turning the necks of your 600-yard brass is a waste of time. Your scores will improve much faster by practicing or dry-firing. On the other hand, if the reigning champions anxiously check your scores each time you fire an event, a little neck-turning might not be so far-fetched.
Again, The best part about reloading is the person doing the reloading decides how to do it. "BUT" remember using benchrest techniques on AR15 type rifles can be waisted effort.
Interesting discussion. I also polish the expander ball on my RCBS dies. I use the glycerine RCBS lube to lube my cases. I usually put 200 in a plastic gallon freezer bag and put in the lube. I stir the bag around and let it set for a couple hours. This allows the lube to creep into the necks and lube the inside of the case mouth.
When I'm done sizing and depriming I use hot water and simple Green to wash off the lube. Then I finish the brass using a Crow trimmer and ream out the primer crimp. Then everything goes into the tumbler with crushed walnut shells.
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