View Full Version : Better duty rifles in current production?
I have had a few people ask me about better 'duty rifles' after watching me run my KAC SR-15 Mod 2 LPR. Sticker shock is also a problem with some people too! (I would rather own one really good rifle rather than a dozen 'cheap' rifles! :))
In the past, a Colt 6920 was an easy recommendation along with Noveske.
These days I'm wondering about boutique builders that may offer a really good rifle at a price that isn't so far away from what more pedestrian rifles cost (like a KAC SR-15 versus something like a Springfield Saint for example).
Sons of Liberty and Sionics are two I have heard about but I don't have personal experience with and then there are some like Geissele with their new rifle line.
For non-Gucci service or duty grade AR-15 rifles, what are the better brands outside of the mainstream like BCM and Daniel Defense? For an 'average Joe or Jane' with a nominal $1500 budget that wants a serious AR-15 capable of hard use in a rifle class and not something to brag about on Social Media. What companies and brands are the better places to look for a hard use rifle, not a Gucci or Precision AR-15?
Personally, I have a strong affinity for KAC but over $2K for an AR-15 isn't realistic for most people. I regret not buying one a long time ago even when I was in a dumpy little apartment on the bad side of town after graduating college. For myself, I'm thinking about formal rifle classes but I keep getting asked about 'good' rifles so I need to broaden my focus some to point out solid rifles available today or next week, not backlogged for long periods, that would serve me well and make a good recommendation for someone else to consider.
I lean towards any company that offers chrome lined barrels so BCM, Sionics, and DD come to mind. Centurion Arms also offers a $1200 carbine with with their CMR and Geissele has their Super Duty LE for $850. If I had to to start all over again and couldn't afford and SR15, I'd get one of these.
El Vaquero
05-26-20, 01:30
That’s all I’d go with if you’re shying from KAC, BCM and DD. The names you put out. Sionics, Sons of Liberty, Geissele, and Colt. I would also add Centurion Arms. Tons of threads on this forum that go into detail on those brands if you need it. All good quality and all bring a little something different to the table (Geissele-gas system, CA-Barrels, Sionics-overall value). I’ve heard good things about Triarc Rifle Systems but I would put them on the Gucci side which is what you’re trying to avoid.
Really just a matter of pick a brand and wait for a sale.
A Sionics Patrol Rifle Three supplies everything you need in a good AR.. and it includes iron sights, a Raptor charging handle, ambi-safety, and QD end plate; items you often end up adding to other basic AR's. You can roll into that rifle for $1420.
I lean towards any company that offers chrome lined barrels so BCM, Sionics, and DD come to mind. Centurion Arms also offers a $1200 carbine with with their CMR and Geissele has their Super Duty LE for $850. If I had to to start all over again and couldn't afford and SR15, I'd get one of these.
The Geissele LE rifle for $850 looks like a really solid deal for someone with law enforcement credentials.
A Sionics Patrol Rifle Three supplies everything you need in a good AR.. and it includes iron sights, a Raptor charging handle, ambi-safety, and QD end plate; items you often end up adding to other basic AR's. You can roll into that rifle for $1420.
That Sionics Patrol Rifle Three looks like a real easy upsell for anyone that would consider something like a Springfield Saint or similar rifle. :cool:
TomPenguin5145
05-26-20, 04:28
But how can you beat a rifle that is marketed as a "precision perimeter system". I mean it basically eliminates the need for officers at all. lol. :-D
Seems like a nice rifle tho.
https://www.knightarmco.com/12013/shop/commercial-firearms/sr-15-e3-lpr-mod-2-m-lok
I own both of the Geissele Super Duty LE versions, 16" and pistol (is now living life as an SBR) and couldn't be more impressed with the quality. IMO, Geissele is offering the best deals to credentialed Officers right now. No other company is even close to their LEO deals. The 10.3" will be my patrol rifle as soon as our range opens back up and I take care of qualifying with it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?217295-Geissele-Super-Duty-LE-Rifle-Arrived!!!-Pic-heavy-initial-impressions
I have had a few people ask me about better 'duty rifles' after watching me run my KAC SR-15 Mod 2 LPR. Sticker shock is also a problem with some people too! (I would rather own one really good rifle rather than a dozen 'cheap' rifles! :))
In the past, a Colt 6920 was an easy recommendation along with Noveske.
These days I'm wondering about boutique builders that may offer a really good rifle at a price that isn't so far away from what more pedestrian rifles cost (like a KAC SR-15 versus something like a Springfield Saint for example).
Centurion Arms should be a definite brand for you to consider. I have some experience with them, as I own a 11.5 SBR made by them, as well as several of their lowers that I am using on other brand uppers (primarily Sig 516 and MCX Virtus). They produce a high quality rifle at a fair (not inexpensive, but also not KAC) price. The owner, Monty LeClair has tremendous experience in the AR arena as a Navy Seal sniper and also as the Navy's senior enlisted representative at the Navy Surface Warfare Center at Crane, Indiana. He sources most of his barrels from FN to his specs. In addition, the customer service provided is unbelievable. Monty's wife, Corrie, handles most of the communication for orders, follow-up, and questions, problems, etc. Although they have a semi-custom design form on their website for their rifles, you can pretty much get it built anyway you want by talking with them. I just can't recommend them enough.
Centurion Arms should be a definite brand for you to consider. I have some experience with them, as I own a 11.5 SBR made by them, as well as several of their lowers that I am using on other brand uppers (primarily Sig 516 and MCX Virtus). They produce a high quality rifle at a fair (not inexpensive, but also not KAC) price. The owner, Monty LeClair has tremendous experience in the AR arena as a Navy Seal sniper and also as the Navy's senior enlisted representative at the Navy Surface Warfare Center at Crane, Indiana. He sources most of his barrels from FN to his specs. In addition, the customer service provided is unbelievable. Monty's wife, Corrie, handles most of the communication for orders, follow-up, and questions, problems, etc. Although they have a semi-custom design form on their website for their rifles, you can pretty much get it built anyway you want by talking with them. I just can't recommend them enough.
Next on my get-list is Centurion's AMTAC collaboration, here: https://www.centurionarms.com/AMTAC-rifle-p/amtac-rfl.htm
But how can you beat a rifle that it marketed as a "precision perimeter system". I mean it basically eliminates the need for officers at all. lol. :-D
Seems like a nice rifle tho.
https://www.knightarmco.com/12013/shop/commercial-firearms/sr-15-e3-lpr-mod-2-m-lok
I really like mine and it is a super nice rifle. With a street price of ~$2500 it is simply too much for many people. Some days at the range I feel like I'm someone dating a Super Model being hounded by Paparazzi or driving Ferrari / Lamborghini at the local watering hole with all the local high school boys and girls drooling over it.
I own both of the Geissele Super Duty LE versions, 16" and pistol (is now living life as an SBR) and couldn't be more impressed with the quality. IMO, Geissele is offering the best deals to credentialed Officers right now. No other company is even close to their LEO deals. The 10.3" will be my patrol rifle as soon as our range opens back up and I take care of qualifying with it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?217295-Geissele-Super-Duty-LE-Rifle-Arrived!!!-Pic-heavy-initial-impressions
Centurion Arms should be a definite brand for you to consider. I have some experience with them, as I own a 11.5 SBR made by them, as well as several of their lowers that I am using on other brand uppers (primarily Sig 516 and MCX Virtus). They produce a high quality rifle at a fair (not inexpensive, but also not KAC) price. The owner, Monty LeClair has tremendous experience in the AR arena as a Navy Seal sniper and also as the Navy's senior enlisted representative at the Navy Surface Warfare Center at Crane, Indiana. He sources most of his barrels from FN to his specs. In addition, the customer service provided is unbelievable. Monty's wife, Corrie, handles most of the communication for orders, follow-up, and questions, problems, etc. Although they have a semi-custom design form on their website for their rifles, you can pretty much get it built anyway you want by talking with them. I just can't recommend them enough.
Thanks! Both of those options sound awesome! If I was back in the market without my current rifle, it sounds like either option would be a great choice. Perhaps someday I will see one in person.
Centurion Arms 11.5: Awesome SBR rifle.
62598
Next on my get-list is Centurion's AMTAC collaboration, here: https://www.centurionarms.com/AMTAC-rifle-p/amtac-rfl.htm
I’m digging this one. At 6.1LB with gov profile bbl that’s light. Perhaps a lw bbl...
Next on my get-list is Centurion's AMTAC collaboration, here: https://www.centurionarms.com/AMTAC-rifle-p/amtac-rfl.htm
I’m digging this one. At 6.1LB with gov profile bbl that’s light. Perhaps a lw bbl...
I've gone back and forth on my thinking between the gov and LW profiles for these configurations. I don't care for extra weight, but with the comps and well balanced gas you can shoot harder with a little less wander.
Complete rifles, LMT MRP in any variant you want. For a lighter more customized version I always buy complete LMT lowers (any flavor the new ambi stuff is nice) and roll my own upper, usually BCM upper receivers, LMT tactical charging handles, BCG usually follows the barrel makers as I've typically ordered barrels with fitted bolts. Geissele SSA triggers are pretty much my go to, I've used and really like Noveske LoPro SS barrels, have a nice Centurion RECCE and PRI rigs. Had some bugs here and there but they all shoot great.
The Geissele LE rifle for $850 looks like a really solid deal for someone with law enforcement credentials.
Yes, but be aware the LE Super Duty (sku 08-184B) is significantly different than the standard Super Duty (sku 08-188LB). Not saying that at $850 it's not a great buy but don't think you are getting the standard Super Duty for that money.
Just sayin'
Yes, but be aware the LE Super Duty (sku 08-184B) is significantly different than the standard Super Duty (sku 08-188LB). Not saying that at $850 it's not a great buy but don't think you are getting the standard Super Duty for that money.
Just sayin'
Without digging to deep the rail and trigger look to be the difference (geissele vs alg offerings).
Without digging to deep the rail and trigger look to be the difference (geissele vs alg offerings).
Barrel, handguard, BCG, trigger among others. Specs for each are well defined on the Geissele site.
Barrel, handguard, BCG, trigger among others. Specs for each are well defined on the Geissele site.
Yeah I saw that hammer forged vs CMV CL, BCG, etc. I find it odd the ALG version is LEO only. It really does not matter to me, while I like Geissele products they are late to the game (and yet made the smart move to direct sell with financing options.) I'll watch where it goes.
My point was/is that Geissele calls them all "Super Duty" but they are not all the same. Caveat Emptor as the saying goes.
Personally I'd rather source from a known quantity. I've only sourced two new complete rifles to date, both large frame LMT, and have an LMT CQBMLK16-MARS on order. Everything else has started with a complete lower usually sourced locally and ordered uppers or components for a build.
Centurion Arms 11.5: Awesome SBR rifle.
62598
very hard to beat that. nice rifle.
My point was/is that Geissele calls them all "Super Duty" but they are not all the same. Caveat Emptor as the saying goes.
Thank you for pointing that difference out. Very difficult for the average (or busy) customer to know the difference without going into the weeds and specs.
What are your thoughts on the POF Renegade?
Yes, but be aware the LE Super Duty (sku 08-184B) is significantly different than the standard Super Duty (sku 08-188LB). Not saying that at $850 it's not a great buy but don't think you are getting the standard Super Duty for that money.
Just sayin'
The biggest difference appears to the in railed vs. non-railed upper. I agree there is no "free lunch' but, for $850 it is still a very solid choice for many.
The other differences are not significant to most people, me included, in a rifle meant for normal uses (i.e. not competition) on a farm, in squad car, etc.
Complete rifles, LMT MRP in any variant you want...
I had one of those and found it to be a bit too heavy for my needs. The KAC has a longer barrel and handles much better for me. Plus, it is an awesome rig to smoke cow chasing dogs.
I like choices/variety as much as the next guy, but the OP mentioned 4 of the more respected brands out there. Not sure why you’d need to search beyond those brands for a solid duty carbine unless it’s purely for the sake of being different.
I love my BCM, and the two DD rifles (well, one is a complete rifle the other is a complete upper) that my Dad and best friend own shoot amazingly well. The beauty with BCM is you can buy the lower as a “blem” and purchase an upper separately anywhere from $435 to $800 depending on whether you want stripped, complete, polymer handguards with FSB, keymod/mlok/Picatinny rail, etc. With a small amount of buying savvy you can get a solid af midlength carbine for under a grand. Same goes for a Sons of Liberty patrol rifle or a basic Centurion Arms, though I only have experience with components from those companies, not complete rifles.
I love my BCM, and the two DD rifles (well, one is a complete rifle the other is a complete upper) that my Dad and best friend own shoot amazingly well. The beauty with BCM is you can buy the lower as a “blem” and purchase an upper separately anywhere from $435 to $800 depending on whether you want stripped, complete, polymer handguards with FSB, keymod/mlok/Picatinny rail, etc. With a small amount of buying savvy you can get a solid af midlength carbine for under a grand.
$1050 or abouts is what we generally have between the lower (usually LMT ~$350) and the upper (~$700) as an M4 style front sight post and all. We have two BCM BFH with Centurion clamp style quad rails that are great shooters. The lower to me is the foundation, the upper can be whatever your heart desires. Good triggers and a B5 sopmod add to the cost, but those can be added over time.
"Hard use" is where it can get a bit more tricky, but any make can develop a problem. My new MRP sheared the ejector retaining pin. LMT took care of it but if you were in a class without a spare BCG (or bolt) you'd be sitting out. One BCM upper went back due to a canted FSB, but generally they all run great. I switch extractor springs over to the newer colt copper type without the o-ring "work-around".
Some rifles are systems like the SR15, SR25 and LMT MWS. Outside of those I don't think I'd steer someone away from selecting the best fit (quality and application wise) from a variety of mfgs, but you'll pay more than $850. I did buy one complete BCM lower to make a complete BCM rifle (M4 quad) but that lower just isn't my cup of tea. As always YMMV...
https://i.imgur.com/df2UXB9l.jpg
I've read (forgotten where might be this site) that LMT's chromed lined barrels are made differently as well. Apparently LMT orders barrels with oversized bores so that they can be chrome lined without the additional work of having to have the barrels bored out again then chromed lining them which can cause inconsistencies with barrels. Hopefully someone can word that better than me.
Personally, I'm not a fan of over-gassed uppers so, I generally stay away from Daniel Defense though they are generally a really good manufacturer for people not running suppressed. As noted, running non-standard or proprietary systems can also be an issue if you don't travel with a decent set of spare parts. Murphy's law can strike even a premium built rifle.
For people randomly asking about AR-15's, mixing and matching uppers and lowers is a no-go for me though, it is better than "franken'gun" recommendations from random "gun plumbers". YMMV ;)
A complete rifle is better for someone new to the rifle game as well for multiple reasons. While you can save F.E.T. by purchasing a quality complete lower from someone and a similar quality upper from someone else, you still have to pay shipping and where do you go if things aren't right? Personally, I'll give the extra ~$100 to a quality manufacturer to have a completely debugged system that is ready to go to work.
This doesn't mean that your $30 gun show lower with a random LPK and a good upper won't meet the needs of many people though.
Having wasted a lot of money on various AR-15 uppers and lowers over the years, I could have easily afforded the KAC a long time ago. Today, those other rifles, uppers, etc. are collecting dust because the KAC is simply a vastly superior rifle in my hands with my trigger finger. A retired Marine could probably still outshoot me with their rack grade random AR-15 but, the fact remains I hit stuff with KAC that would be a miss with my other AR-15's.
And no, KAC isn't the only manufacturer with these qualities, just the one I have personal experience with.
Yes, but be aware the LE Super Duty (sku 08-184B) is significantly different than the standard Super Duty (sku 08-188LB). Not saying that at $850 it's not a great buy but don't think you are getting the standard Super Duty for that money.
Just sayin'
Yup, I'm aware.
Sounds like you're into Geisseles. Which models do you own, and what kind of shooting do you do with them?
Having wasted a lot of money on various AR-15 uppers and lowers over the years, I could have easily afforded the KAC a long time ago.
I had an opportunity to buy an SR15 at my LGS (an hour away) but had just bought my kid's M1Garand from the CMP, which was his graduation gift so swinging the $2200ish was a no go. KAC makes great products no doubt, I have a small fortune in SR25 mags.
pointblank4445
05-27-20, 19:16
Personally, I'm not a fan of over-gassed uppers so, I generally stay away from Daniel Defense
Depends on the barrel/upper. Their 16" middy barrels are 0.072" ports which are some of the smallest available from a major mfg.
Personally, I'm not a fan of over-gassed uppers so, I generally stay away from Daniel Defense though they are generally a really good manufacturer for people not running suppressed.
Hasn’t DD addressed this with smaller ports on “recent” production rifles?
Personally, I'm not a fan of over-gassed uppers so, I generally stay away from Daniel Defense though they are generally a really good manufacturer for people not running suppressed. As noted, running non-standard or proprietary systems can also be an issue if you don't travel with a decent set of spare parts. Murphy's law can strike even a premium built rifle.
Hasn’t DD addressed this with smaller ports on “recent” production rifles?
I'm pretty sure they fixed the MK18 gas ports, but I don't know about the rest of their guns.
Personally DD doesn't impress me much any more. Granted, it's been a couple of years since I had occasion to tear one down, but the last couple I remember messing with had very poor staking on the castle nuts and no grease whatsoever on the barrel nuts. I couldn't help but think there were corners cut during assembly.
Troutrunner
05-27-20, 21:02
I voted with my wallet by grabbing the Centurion 12.5. Fit my needs and by my eye is very well built. Smooth shooter.
https://i.imgur.com/fgOAT7c.jpg
... KAC makes great products no doubt, I have a small fortune in SR25 mags.
My SR-15 makes me want to replace the DPMS G2's with an SR-25. I just wish they weren't $4K.
Depends on the barrel/upper. Their 16" middy barrels are 0.072" ports which are some of the smallest available from a major mfg.
Thanks! I might have to reconsider one of those. The carbine gas I tried would choke me out on a suppressed rifle in a heartbeat or two.
I voted with my wallet by grabbing the Centurion 12.5. Fit my needs and by my eye is very well built. Smooth shooter.
https://i.imgur.com/fgOAT7c.jpg
Nice rifle! Oops, nice pistol I guess! :jester:
I voted with my wallet by grabbing the Centurion 12.5. Fit my needs and by my eye is very well built. Smooth shooter.
https://i.imgur.com/fgOAT7c.jpg
Nice, very nice. Another great example of what Centurion Arms can do. That 12.5 length is extremely appealing to me.
These were two earlier rifles that fit the hard use category, an LMT STD16 and a BCM BFH 16 with Centurion 9" hand guard. Now days I'd select one with an extended mlok instead of the M4 FSB, but either is a great starter rifle.
https://i.imgur.com/JA8mBool.jpg
These were two earlier rifles that fit the hard use category, an LMT STD16 and a BCM BFH 16 with Centurion 12.5" hand guard. Now days I'd select one with an extended mlok instead of the M4 FSB, but either is a great starter rifle.
https://i.imgur.com/JA8mBool.jpg
I’d take the LMT as is
I'm pretty sure they fixed the MK18 gas ports, but I don't know about the rest of their guns.
Personally DD doesn't impress me much any more. Granted, it's been a couple of years since I had occasion to tear one down, but the last couple I remember messing with had very poor staking on the castle nuts and no grease whatsoever on the barrel nuts. I couldn't help but think there were corners cut during assembly.
What I DIDN’T like about DD was over-gassed. Not a fan of their mlok/kmr either.
What I DO dig about DD is they make their shit, the parts that matter CHF bbl, ect , in house.
They’ve reduced all of their gas ports I believe. The URGI I briefly had was pretty tame and my new MK18 upper is as well.
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Windham Weaponry. It's as close to Colt Defense as you can get aside from FNH. Their patrol models go on sale periodically: subscribe to their newsletter. I did a WW build using their parts last year, since they started selling receivers. I used an old Colt barrel I had purchased prior that was my only deviation. My friend has a WW build also and he loves it, the barrel is on par with a Colt SOCOM as far as accuracy goes. I'm a fairly experienced armorer and I really liked their LPK with basic trigger. I polished it with a ceramic stone and greased it with aeroshell and it's really crisp for a $70 LPK FCG. Very happy with Windham's parts. They are not as cheap as some others but worth it.
I’d take the LMT as is
Don’t they come with semi auto BCGs?
Don’t they come with semi auto BCGs?
For a semi-auto rifle, does it really matter?
Windham Weaponry. It's as close to Colt Defense as you can get aside from FNH. Their patrol models go on sale periodically: subscribe to their newsletter. I did a WW build using their parts last year, since they started selling receivers. I used an old Colt barrel I had purchased prior that was my only deviation. My friend has a WW build also and he loves it, the barrel is on par with a Colt SOCOM as far as accuracy goes. I'm a fairly experienced armorer and I really liked their LPK with basic trigger. I polished it with a ceramic stone and greased it with aeroshell and it's really crisp for a $70 LPK FCG. Very happy with Windham's parts. They are not as cheap as some others but worth it.
1/9 twist and doesn't say if bolts are HPT, MPI, or Shot-peened. They also don't say anything about HPT or MPI about their barrels and are asking for Colt prices. I'd rather stick with the other brands.
For a semi-auto rifle, does it really matter?
Heavier reciprocating mass means generally more reliability, slower bolt speed, better parts longevity. It’s never made sense to me why LMT gets a pass on semi auto BCGs in their relatively expensive basic ass rifles
Heavier reciprocating mass means generally more reliability, slower bolt speed, better parts longevity. It’s never made sense to me why LMT gets a pass on semi auto BCGs in their relatively expensive basic ass rifles
Are their BCG really light enough to affect BCG speed? It seems to me if that was an issue it would be pretty easy to add a little mass somewhere to keep overall BCG weights the same.
It's been a non-issue ordering a complete lower, assembled upper, BCG of choice, and charging handle. It is a pain though as for the complete rifle I have on order with v1tactical, I ordered a FA carrier from Primary Arms. Usually switch out the buffer from standard carbine to H2.
Don’t they come with semi auto BCGs?
I was referencing the posters intent to change config in that as a whole I’d run it as is....
That said, an LMT sa carrier wouldn’t be a concern. Their shit is GTG
I have had a few people ask me about better 'duty rifles' after watching me run my KAC SR-15 Mod 2 LPR. Sticker shock is also a problem with some people too! (I would rather own one really good rifle rather than a dozen 'cheap' rifles! :))
In the past, a Colt 6920 was an easy recommendation along with Noveske.
These days I'm wondering about boutique builders that may offer a really good rifle at a price that isn't so far away from what more pedestrian rifles cost (like a KAC SR-15 versus something like a Springfield Saint for example).
Sons of Liberty and Sionics are two I have heard about but I don't have personal experience with and then there are some like Geissele with their new rifle line.
For non-Gucci service or duty grade AR-15 rifles, what are the better brands outside of the mainstream like BCM and Daniel Defense? For an 'average Joe or Jane' with a nominal $1500 budget that wants a serious AR-15 capable of hard use in a rifle class and not something to brag about on Social Media. What companies and brands are the better places to look for a hard use rifle, not a Gucci or Precision AR-15?
Personally, I have a strong affinity for KAC but over $2K for an AR-15 isn't realistic for most people. I regret not buying one a long time ago even when I was in a dumpy little apartment on the bad side of town after graduating college. For myself, I'm thinking about formal rifle classes but I keep getting asked about 'good' rifles so I need to broaden my focus some to point out solid rifles available today or next week, not backlogged for long periods, that would serve me well and make a good recommendation for someone else to consider.
If this is a duty rifle, and you are required/authorized to have it, do you not write of the cost as it is necessity required for your job? If this is the case, then you should look at the best rifle you can afford- which appears to be what your question is. There are still Colt's available but on the used market it seems, Noveske is available, as is KAC and DD apparently. Why not get one of those as your life, and potentially mine, may be be reliant upon it. You can mess around with whichever other rifles for personal time later could you not?
I recently bought a Radian Arms model 1 with a 10.5 in barrel. Love it, very smooth shooting. Pricey at $2100
1/9 twist and doesn't say if bolts are HPT, MPI, or Shot-peened. They also don't say anything about HPT or MPI about their barrels and are asking for Colt prices. I'd rather stick with the other brands.
They sell foreign military contracts and keep their production parts for their duty models the same with variations for specific contract needs. The component quality has gone up since they sold Bushmaster quite a bit. I believe the barrels are similar but parts are made better and finished exceptionally well. You can ask about the barrels and bolts and they will clarify it. They used to HPT and MPI the barrels, I saw the machines at the factory. They also air gauge the barrels and are pretty strict about margin of error. If I recall correctly they also test the bolts. They also proof each gun in a proof range. The duty models for contracts typically are fed 90-200 rounds. I would also guess they purchase the BCGs from a contractor who makes them for govt.
If this is a duty rifle, and you are required/authorized to have it, do you not write of the cost as it is necessity required for your job? If this is the case, then you should look at the best rifle you can afford- which appears to be what your question is. There are still Colt's available but on the used market it seems, Noveske is available, as is KAC and DD apparently. Why not get one of those as your life, and potentially mine, may be be reliant upon it. You can mess around with whichever other rifles for personal time later could you not?
The people I run into don't have deep pockets and the few that are CLEO's that I run into don't have a city board that will reimburse them for anything that doesn't protect them from a lawsuit. So yes, maybe a DPMS or similar bargain basement AR-15 but not a KAC SR-15 or similar rifle. Some of them won't even apply for one of the surplus government M-16's.
I recently bought a Radian Arms model 1 with a 10.5 in barrel. Love it, very smooth shooting. Pricey at $2100
Those have a very good reputation for a Gucci rifle for various sporting uses. I considered one before buying my KAC SR-15 which is only a little more expensive.
The people I run into don't have deep pockets and the few that are CLEO's that I run into don't have a city board that will reimburse them for anything that doesn't protect them from a lawsuit. So yes, maybe a DPMS or similar bargain basement AR-15 but not a KAC SR-15 or similar rifle. Some of them won't even apply for one of the surplus government M-16's.
I understand that but there would be nothing to say that you could not write this off your income tax as a job related expense. Or is there?
I understand that but there would be nothing to say that you could not write this off your income tax as a job related expense. Or is there?
With a $12K individual deductible, most officers probably won't have enough expenses to exceed that so, in practical terms no tax write-off though, I didn't sleep in Holiday Inn Express and I am not a tax accountant. YMMV.
My Nephew purchased an ADM UIC for personal and LEO use. I have not handled the weapon but it does appear "on paper" to have some nice features and they are in the sub 2,000 range. I am impressed with the specs that I have seen, ambi lower, Radian and Geissele parts. Has anyone had any experience with ADM rifles? This appears to fit the duty weapons being discussed.
noonesshowmonkey
05-30-20, 15:12
I'd be looking at manufacturers that have competitive LE pricing.
FN's patrol rifles are very aggressively priced with creds. As are Sig. A few others mentioned here fit within the budget. I'd look at the Colt CCU.
For Duty rifles, I'd print out my agency policy regarding their layout and use. I also wouldn't get an SBR. I might consider a pistol, recognizing that it may cause headaches down the road. Either way, whatever rifle I was getting, I'd write off as expendable given that it will disappear in the unlikely event that you use it in an OIS.
A duty rifle must: have a sling, have a white light, have a red dot. That's it. Suppressors are nice, shorter barrels are nice, grips are nice... But those first three things are non-negotiable. And they can be managed with a Bushmaster and a $60 Troy 2-piece rail (ask me how I know). My issued Bushmaster always went bang, held zero, etc. These are tools, are used in a capacity which is well outside the envelope of personal life, and will be confiscated when used. Most shots are going to be made at or under 25m, likely less. Depending on your AO, you might actually need longer legs, but that's going to be on a case-by-case basis.
Your budget allows you to get just about anything worthwhile.
Get something light, because you're going to be carrying it and holding it on suspects a helluva lot more than shooting it.
... Get something light, because you're going to be carrying it and holding it on suspects a helluva lot more than shooting it.
For me, that's where a pencil barrel or SBR really comes into its own. For LEO uses, I wouldn't need the capabilities my SR-15 gives me with it's 18" Krieger barrel.
For rifle classes and abusive firing schedules, midweight and heavier barrels come into their own for heat management and stability for longer range shots.
For general walking about on my farm, a lightweight 11.5" barreled AR-15 really is nice.
Thankfully, the thought of any of them being taken into evidence for an "OIS" type event is EXTREMELY unlikely.
They sell foreign military contracts and keep their production parts for their duty models the same with variations for specific contract needs. The component quality has gone up since they sold Bushmaster quite a bit. I believe the barrels are similar but parts are made better and finished exceptionally well. You can ask about the barrels and bolts and they will clarify it. They used to HPT and MPI the barrels, I saw the machines at the factory. They also air gauge the barrels and are pretty strict about margin of error. If I recall correctly they also test the bolts. They also proof each gun in a proof range. The duty models for contracts typically are fed 90-200 rounds. I would also guess they purchase the BCGs from a contractor who makes them for govt.
The barrels and bolts are made from the correct materials according to the specs posted on their site, but the rifling twist rate is 1:9 instead of 1:7 and no mention of testing. I can't help but think if they were testing every bolt and barrel they would make that information known without having to ask.
The barrels and bolts are made from the correct materials according to the specs posted on their site, but the rifling twist rate is 1:9 instead of 1:7 and no mention of testing. I can't help but think if they were testing every bolt and barrel they would make that information known without having to ask.
They have both 1/7 and 1/9 in 5.56N. I know for a fact they test fire a proof round in every build. I don't know if they proof each bolt? I would carry their duty models in combat with confidence: I might add a Sprinco and a heavier buffer but that would be it. They have had a significant demand from civilians for the 1/9”. Most folks like shooting the 55g due to lower cost.
They have both 1/7 and 1/9 in 5.56N. I know for a fact they test fire a proof round in every build. I don't know if they proof each bolt? I would carry their duty models in combat with confidence: I might add a Sprinco and a heavier buffer but that would be it. They have had a significant demand from civilians for the 1/9”. Most folks like shooting the 55g due to lower cost.
Yeah but we're talking about duty rifles so 55gr is out of the question. HPT and MPI is more important IMO than a test fire, at best I think if they were testing barrels and bolts they're probably batch testing not individual testing.
Again, for the price, why go with them when you have companies with proven rifles that follow TDP?
They have both 1/7 and 1/9 in 5.56N. I know for a fact they test fire a proof round in every build. I don't know if they proof each bolt? I would carry their duty models in combat with confidence: I might add a Sprinco and a heavier buffer but that would be it. They have had a significant demand from civilians for the 1/9”. Most folks like shooting the 55g due to lower cost.
What kind of proof round? An M197 round or a regular off-the-shelf 55 gr. round of some sort? Again, if they were doing it "right" I believe they would make it readily known.
We are kinda mixing apples and oranges here. Someone who is only buying cheap ball from WallyWorld probably isn't going to be purchasing an expensive rifle. They also probably aren't looking for TDP spec testing of components either. A DPMS Oracle for $400 and WWB blaster ammo is totally different IMHO from the original intent of this thread.
I get the LEO slant which is valid. Duty in the sense of reliability for heavier firing schedules and not letting you down after paying good money for training, travel, etc. is really where I was thinking. Not everyone has ~$2K to dump on a KAC, LMT/MRP, etc. and, there are really solid options that don't have all the Gucci shooting game features and price tags. A rifle that will serve a farmer/rancher or LEO or someone paying good money to travel and train at a more modest price point or the same price point as a Social Media worthy AR-15 from major manufacturers is where I was going.
SOLGW has a nice rifle that is ~$200 less than a Springfield Saint for example. The Saint is a good rifle for many but, I'd be better served in a training class I think with a SOLGW option. Or one of the other good value-oriented 'boutique' brands like Centurion Arms.
For general range day plinking fun, I see very little wrong with the Bushmaster I bought ~30 years ago from the same guys that are Windham today. The 1x9 barrel is a non-issue as well because people buying that type of rifle probably aren't looking to run expensive premium ammo either.
Personally, I'm thinking a Centurion Arms 12.5" upper for my SBR is in my future. I may or may not get one of the value-oriented AR-15's from SOLGW or CA for my tractor or side-by-side when dragging around my KAC with a suppressor is a bit much at some point in the future. What I do appreciate are the pertinent comments to point other people towards good AR-15 options when they recover from sticker shock with my pride and joy KAC SR-15.
Yeah but we're talking about duty rifles so 55gr is out of the question. HPT and MPI is more important IMO than a test fire, at best I think if they were testing barrels and bolts they're probably batch testing not individual testing.
Again, for the price, why go with them when you have companies with proven rifles that follow TDP?
Actually a lot of agencies fun 55gr ammo. Esp Federal TRU.
The people I run into don't have deep pockets and the few that are CLEO's that I run into don't have a city board that will reimburse them for anything that doesn't protect them from a lawsuit. So yes, maybe a DPMS or similar bargain basement AR-15 but not a KAC SR-15 or similar rifle. Some of them won't even apply for one of the surplus government M-16's.
I agree. I really don't see the need for a duty/defense rifle thats better than a Colt Defense or similar. I worked with allied special forces on a number of mission types and with all the HKs, Bullpups, and cold hammered shit, our Colts got the job done just as effectively. Buy what pleases you but any well made AR will serve anyone trained to use it. These are tools the only question is are they the right tools for the job?
What kind of proof round? An M197 round or a regular off-the-shelf 55 gr. round of some sort? Again, if they were doing it "right" I believe they would make it readily known.
When I toured the factory in 2008 they were using proof rounds. They laser sight them and run standard cartridges to test builds the number depends on the contracts. You would have to ask them about the bolts and barrels but I would bet they are all tested and inspected per miltech specs.
re: Core781
I agree. A lot of people get caught up in the Gucci game AR-15's and Social Media frenzy. I want one that will work dirty, dusty, hot, cold, etc. Some might argue KAC is 'Gucci' but, for me at least, has proven to be the superior tool in my toolbox when I need to shoot something appropriate.
I wish years ago, I had gotten something from Sionics/SOLGW/CA or a similar boutique builder. I guess I'm a slow learner but, I finally got smart enough to buy a KAC, avoiding Larue, Springfield, etc.
re: Core781
I agree. A lot of people get caught up in the Gucci game AR-15's and Social Media frenzy. I want one that will work dirty, dusty, hot, cold, etc. Some might argue KAC is 'Gucci' but, for me at least, has proven to be the superior tool in my toolbox when I need to shoot something appropriate.
I wish years ago, I had gotten something from Sionics/SOLGW/CA or a similar boutique builder. I guess I'm a slow learner but, I finally got smart enough to buy a KAC, avoiding Larue, Springfield, etc.
I would not consider KAC to be boutique given that they have been respected in military and law circles for decades. For years KAC was the only manufacturer that made a better hammer. Im glad you're happy with it. If I ever purchase another factory AR it will be a Larue. Im very happy with my MBTs, mounts, etc. SOLGW make great parts, great quality and good prices. I don't have experience with Sionics. Since Colt Defense declared they would no longer sell to civilians, I have shifted to other similar quality alternatives. Needless to say I have memorized some good sources and know what to look for upon inspection. I just ordered a few E2 armory receiver sets, they shipped fast and they are every bit as well made as my Colts.
Actually a lot of agencies fun 55gr ammo. Esp Federal TRU.
Ah guess I'm out of my lane.
Yeah but we're talking about duty rifles so 55gr is out of the question.
Actually a lot of agencies fun 55gr ammo. Esp Federal TRU.
Ah guess I'm out of my lane.
Yep. Lots of 55 out there, some pretty darn decent.
And it's always worthy of a reminder: Bullet weight is only one variable in a complex equation.
My KAC is what really showed me what I was missing. I agree it's not a boutique company with large military contracts and its manufacturing capacity. After all, how many companies can mill a Krieger barrel with the Mod 2 gas system?
Boutique builders can build a really high-quality alternative to KAC though it won't have the E3 bolt or Mod 2 gas but, how many people really need those features, and at what cost? If giving up the E3 bolt and Mod 2 gas saves hundreds of dollars, that is probably a worthwhile tradeoff for many people.
Since Colt no longer sells commercially, many people are buying poor quality AR-15's. It is nice having good recommendations for a quality AR-15 like the ones mentioned in this thread that runs from ~$1,000 on the low-end to ~$1,500 for a lot of good options. This clearly is more accessible than the ~$2400 or so current KAC SR-15's run.
I should also note, that I also learned that Daniel Defense has apparently fixed their over-gassing issue, at least on some of their rifles. My initial experience with them wasn't too good but, I also see extra gas being beneficial in a harsh environment to power through tough conditions. Since I run suppressed, that experience for me was a negative one overall even though DD makes really good quality products.
My KAC is what really showed me what I was missing. I agree it's not a boutique company with large military contracts and its manufacturing capacity. After all, how many companies can mill a Krieger barrel with the Mod 2 gas system?
Boutique builders can build a really high-quality alternative to KAC though it won't have the E3 bolt or Mod 2 gas but, how many people really need those features, and at what cost? If giving up the E3 bolt and Mod 2 gas saves hundreds of dollars, that is probably a worthwhile tradeoff for many people.
Since Colt no longer sells commercially, many people are buying poor quality AR-15's. It is nice having good recommendations for a quality AR-15 like the ones mentioned in this thread that runs from ~$1,000 on the low-end to ~$1,500 for a lot of good options. This clearly is more accessible than the ~$2400 or so current KAC SR-15's run.
I should also note, that I also learned that Daniel Defense has apparently fixed their over-gassing issue, at least on some of their rifles. My initial experience with them wasn't too good but, I also see extra gas being beneficial in a harsh environment to power through tough conditions. Since I run suppressed, that experience for me was a negative one overall even though DD makes really good quality products.
DD fixed the gas ports over-sizing a few years ago, not exactly sure but it's been a while. Most manufacturers started the oversize gas port to solve commercial customers having issues shooting crap ammo a long time ago. Most DD customers are looking for something that can chew through hot 5.56N cartridges and lots of folks running suppressors on them. If you can't source a Colt or FN barrel, you should always gauge the gas port if your building and get a chart by barrel length and gas system type. It gets mildly complicated. There are plenty of $1000 AR that I would dare carry into harms way these days, no better time to get one, two, or three.. I am opinionated, but there are many good options. I also like the idea that I have a fighting gun not a safe queen that does not need to be insured by Lloyd's of London..
Yep. Lots of 55 out there, some pretty darn decent.
And it's always worthy of a reminder: Bullet weight is only one variable in a complex equation.
Yes, military versus urban/civilian versus LEO needs are all different.
In my case, after living in apartments, then a house in suburbia, and now in rural Texas, things have changed. Using a rifle in an apartment or house in suburbia for me was out of the question. Out in the country, things are a bit different. I'm also raining @#$@! on feral hogs regularly as well and my rifle is no longer a just a range toy. The dog I DRT'ed the other day is something that would never have happened where I lived previously, though I probably wouldn't be dealing directly with Marijuana and Meth issues either (we can pick our friends but, not our 'neighbors').
DD fixed the gas ports over-sizing a few years ago, not exactly sure but it's been a while. Most manufacturers started the oversize gas port to solve commercial customers having issues shooting crap ammo a long time ago...
Yes, that's were DPMS Oracle and similar rifles live.
Personally, I don't care if my rifle chokes on crap ammo from Walmart. I have other rifles to use if I want to run cheap ammo for general blasting.
These days, it is generally all Nato spec for me though, 'good' commercial ammunition gets some 'love' from me too, especially some of the Federal law enforcement options.
Actually a lot of agencies fun 55gr ammo. Esp Federal TRU.
And it runs though 1/7 (Sionics, Colt, etc) just fine. There is no reason whatsoever for 1/9 (Windham, Bushy, etc) twist barrels on guns meant to hammer two legged targets.
And it runs though 1/7 (Sionics, Colt, etc) just fine. There is no reason whatsoever for 1/9 (Windham, Bushy, etc) twist barrels on guns meant to hammer two legged targets.
If USA D.O.D. didn't adopt 1x7 barrels for tracers, would we even be having this discussion?
I'm not arguing over-stabilization being good or bad, just that it isn't really needed today. For anyone not running speciality bullets typically meant for the target range, this is really a moot argument.
Things are starting to change a little with ~77gr loads entering the mainstream but, for most people that isn't really a factor either. If you are running an SBR or shooting a match at extreme ranges, what someone uses on bad guys, pests, etc. isn't really relevant.
I'd sure like to get my hands on one of those Guissele's
If USA D.O.D. didn't adopt 1x7 barrels for tracers, would we even be having this discussion?
I'm not arguing over-stabilization being good or bad, just that it isn't really needed today. For anyone not running speciality bullets typically meant for the target range, this is really a moot argument.
Things are starting to change a little with ~77gr loads entering the mainstream but, for most people that isn't really a factor either. If you are running an SBR or shooting a match at extreme ranges, what someone uses on bad guys, pests, etc. isn't really relevant.
Ok so 1/7.7 or 1/8. 1/9 is marginal for 69 grain and definitely too slow for 77, so really the practical modern twist rate is between 1/7 to 1/8 unless you are running 55 and lighter.
Didn’t read the entire thread.. but I’m a fan of BCM. At work, we had full colt ARs, but upgraded to BCM uppers within the last few years. The new uppers have better rail systems for mounting tac lights and optics. We stuck with a WI company for our optics, Vortex. I’ve been happy with them for duty use, but would actually prefer a SBR Version (just my preference).
I recently snagged a BCM Recce 11 MCMR with the mk2 upper for personal HD and fun times at the range. But this BCM with optics, carries a $2500 price tag. Gun alone was $1650 msrp. I wish I could carry this at work.
Buy once, cry once. I learned that lesson long ago...
I'd snag another Vortex HD 1x whatever but not until I can get one with .1 mil adjustments, until then I'm out. Might work on another (maybe used) ATACR 1x8 to swap between the flavor of the day...
Buy once, cry once. I learned that lesson long ago...
I Wish I went the direction long ago. My KAC SR-15 LPR is vastly superior to even my 'good' previous AR-15's. Value and good are really two different things, especially with AR-15's.
I enjoy building the uppers, selecting and sourcing the components just like I'd do back in the day with a gaming rig. If I had the opportunity over again I'd have bought that SR15 a few years ago. No biggy it'll come round.
sidewaysil80
06-04-20, 09:36
After owning Colt’s, BCM, T&E’ing Daniel Defenses, T&E’ing PWS, owning a Knights LPR, and finally owning Geissele Super Duty LE 10.3 and 16...the pair of Geissele guns are my “hard use”/duty guns.
I swapped SSA and SSA-E triggers in them and added Geissele rails. Even with adding those parts the cost was on par/equal to most offerings at the entry level rifle cost. BUT, they are much more robust and well put together. From the improved gas system, well sized gas ports, and the litany of other quality control improvements they have been incredibly reliable for about 1000 rounds each so far. Accuracy of the 10.3" and 16" is hovering right around 1moa/1.25moa with IMI 77gr.
While not BETTER, I would say out of the all the brands I have experience with the Geissele is most comparable to/on par with Knights. For the price difference I'd say they are the better buy fwiw. I don't like proprietary parts and as a result shied away from Knights. But in my little world, couldn't be happier or more please with the Super Duty LE rifles.
Here is the write up I did really diving into the Geissele rifles, as you can see this is a very well put together rifle. Now that the accuracy and reliability is confirmed as far as I'm concerned, I recommend them to anyone looking for a factory rifle.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?217295-Geissele-Super-Duty-LE-Rifle-Arrived!!!-Pic-heavy-initial-impressions&highlight=
Ok so 1/7.7 or 1/8. 1/9 is marginal for 69 grain and definitely too slow for 77, so really the practical modern twist rate is between 1/7 to 1/8 unless you are running 55 and lighter.
1/7 works fine with 55gr
After owning Colt’s, BCM, T&E’ing Daniel Defenses, T&E’ing PWS, owning a Knights LPR, and finally owning Geissele Super Duty LE 10.3 and 16...the pair of Geissele guns are my “hard use”/duty guns.
I swapped SSA and SSA-E triggers in them and added Geissele rails. Even with adding those parts the cost was on par/equal to most offerings at the entry level rifle cost. BUT, they are much more robust and well put together. From the improved gas system, well sized gas ports, and the litany of other quality control improvements they have been incredibly reliable for about 1000 rounds each so far. Accuracy of the 10.3" and 16" is hovering right around 1moa/1.25moa with IMI 77gr.
While not BETTER, I would say out of the all the brands I have experience with the Geissele is most comparable to/on par with Knights. For the price difference I'd say they are the better buy fwiw. I don't like proprietary parts and as a result shied away from Knights. But in my little world, couldn't be happier or more please with the Super Duty LE rifles.
Here is the write up I did really diving into the Geissele rifles, as you can see this is a very well put together rifle. Now that the accuracy and reliability is confirmed as far as I'm concerned, I recommend them to anyone looking for a factory rifle.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?217295-Geissele-Super-Duty-LE-Rifle-Arrived!!!-Pic-heavy-initial-impressions&highlight=
It is interesting to note that the LE version is a lesser spec than the standard Super Duty rifle. Perhaps that is part of the reason the price is less than the standard Super Duty.
It makes sense. Get LEOs kitted on a budget. I have heard so many officers who were unable to afford or get authorization for a purchase good carbine. I looked at their line and it’s impressive. Given the offerings for the Heavy Duty civilian line, it appears to be well worth the retail cost judging by the listed components it appears to be a really, well made gun. The underlying question: is it worth $2000? Doing a comparative analysis to a $1000 gun, is it worth the cost? Given a $1000 gun is combat ready, why need a gun that’s twice the cost? After studying parts quality for a handful of years I’m skeptical about wonder components as advertised and found many of these parts to be inferior to the military tech. Tests would be needed to verify the ROI of these Heavy Duty rifles.
I've had the privilege of using a Colt M4A1. If it didn't cycle just 2 drops of CLP in the bolt carrier and was good to go again. But that mainly just happened with blanks since they're very dirty and can barely cycle it anyway. So for a production rifle that would be a Colt LE6920 SOCOM.
I've had the privilege of using a Colt M4A1. If it didn't cycle just 2 drops of CLP in the bolt carrier and was good to go again. But that mainly just happened with blanks since they're very dirty and can barely cycle it anyway. So for a production rifle that would be a Colt LE6920 SOCOM.
I never used blanks. I have heard the same by many who have. The operating stoppages of dirty Colt/FN M4s were typically resolved with a heavier buffer and a heavier spring. Run an H2 with a Sprinco extra power spring they have to get grossly filthy to fail. You would be surprised how a little extra spring will seat rounds better. In training I have to routinely use the FA due to the carbine springs having fed thousands of rounds a day. Usually a fresh spring would resolve the issue. And of course a good heavy lube makes them happy unless your working in the powder sand regions, and a dry lube is a little better. Personally I never had an issue with the old CLP or new CLP in sand but the action got pretty nasty after a serious sand storm. We didn’t have access to dry lube other than what the gunners applied in the armory.
It makes sense. Get LEOs kitted on a budget. I have heard so many officers who were unable to afford or get authorization for a purchase good carbine. I looked at their line and it’s impressive. Given the offerings for the Heavy Duty civilian line, it appears to be well worth the retail cost judging by the listed components it appears to be a really, well made gun. The underlying question: is it worth $2000? Doing a comparative analysis to a $1000 gun, is it worth the cost? Given a $1000 gun is combat ready, why need a gun that’s twice the cost? After studying parts quality for a handful of years I’m skeptical about wonder components as advertised and found many of these parts to be inferior to the military tech. Tests would be needed to verify the ROI of these Heavy Duty rifles.
LGS in my area are selling the comparable LE version (sku 08-184B) for $1,175 and the regular Super Duty version (sku 08-188B) for $1,450.
Just sayin'
By the way, when I say "my area" I live about 20 min from Geissele's North Wales, PA operation.
glockycharms
06-06-20, 10:25
I spoke to Corrie (Centurion Arms) the other day and she said they will be selling the bolts by themselves very soon and they do offer Mil/Leo pricing as well. I spoke to Monty the owner and asked him about his bolts and he did say they are on the same level as DD and Bcm. I plan on buying some spare bolts from him when they start selling them.
So back a few years ago the fitted Centurion bolt I purchased with my recce barrel had the circular lug cuts I've never seen anywhere other than on FN bolts. The bolt in their carrier was not the same.
sidewaysil80
06-06-20, 18:47
It is interesting to note that the LE version is a lesser spec than the standard Super Duty rifle. Perhaps that is part of the reason the price is less than the standard Super Duty.
Yeah but their "lesser spec" LE version still has the same if not better standards/features of other brands in that segment. However it also comes with the addition of an improved gas system length, standard ambi safety, more secure gas block installation. The lack of Geissele handguard, trigger, and some cosmetic options is clearly what keeps the price lower. While those things are nice, none of them enhance function and I'm sure the decision was made to make an affordable no frills "duty" rifle with lower cost.
It is interesting to note that the LE version is a lesser spec than the standard Super Duty rifle. Perhaps that is part of the reason the price is less than the standard Super Duty.
LGS in my area are selling the comparable LE version (sku 08-184B) for $1,175 and the regular Super Duty version (sku 08-188B) for $1,450.
Just sayin' By the way, when I say "my area" I live about 20 min from Geissele's North Wales, PA operation.
Still interested in your response to my earlier question...
Sounds like you're into Geisseles. Which models do you own, and what kind of shooting do you do with them?
Yeah but their "lesser spec" LE version still has the same if not better standards/features of other brands in that segment. However it also comes with the addition of an improved gas system length, standard ambi safety, more secure gas block installation. The lack of Geissele handguard, trigger, and some cosmetic options is clearly what keeps the price lower. While those things are nice, none of them enhance function and I'm sure the decision was made to make an affordable no frills "duty" rifle with lower cost.
I read these differences between the two on the Geissele site: LE version has a different/(lesser?): upper receiver, muzzle device, barrel, handguard, charging handle, BCG, trigger and stock. Perhaps you may consider these items do not enhance function. I'm sure Geissele may have a different opinion.
ST911: sorry, didn't see your question. At the present I do not own any Geissele products. However, I have done a lot of research on them for reasons other than potential ownership of their products.
Thanks!
It's a small sample but my last two LMT's Defender 2000s have been solid rifles. Though the prices seem on par with Colt or slightly higher. My last purchase was a basic LMT M4 16" rifle with plastic hand guards and ran about $1,300 including sales tax, and DROS. No complaints.
Catalog seems to have changed, mine came with a rear sight.
https://lmtdefense.com/product/spm16/
Centurion Arms.
I repeat again: this.
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