View Full Version : Swat guy forgets his carbine at stand off.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/11/oops-member-of.html
:D
A member of the Salt Lake County SWAT team left a loaded M4 rifle near the scene of a standoff Friday in White City, Utah.
The Tribune says a "veteran" member of the tactical unit forgot his or her weapon in someone's front yard.
Deseret News reports that a jogger found the rifle about two hours after officers left the scene.
"It's a terrible mistake," Salt Lake County Sheriff's Deputy Levi Hughes tells the paper. "For this to happen one time is unacceptable. The public expects more out of us than this. We're going to take every step possible so that this never happens again."
Oops, you can not un-ring the bell.
Unfortunate, but people are human and mistakes do happen. Definite carelessness, however.
LEO's - are there typically any check in / check out procedures for these sorts of rifles in departments?
Why can't that happen in front of my house?
JK :D Glad it was found by an adult.
I can imagine forgetting a lot of different things but my rifle is waaaay down at the end of that list.
Buckaroo
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America. ;)
Im still trying to figure out how a SWAT officer removes his weapon and lays it on the ground, especially while working.
IF FOUND PLEASE RETURN TO SALT LAKE COUNTY SWAT
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America. ;)
Really?
Happens much more than folks realize.
Team member should receive multiple days off, and remedial training.
Really?
Can you say tongue in cheek? At least I read it that way.
Can you say tongue in cheek? At least I read it that way.
Hence the "wink".
That's a favorite line of gun grabbers when trying to justify a new AWB.
Seriously - would I be on this site if I didn't think AR's were appropriate???
Lazy...that is the only reason I can see behind a cop putting his firearm on the ground and walking away. He should by removed from SWAT.
You would think one of his "highly trained 1* Ninja" buddies would have noticed a little sooner than 2 hours.
I refuse to publicly Monday morning quarter back any officer, but I would love to hear the story behind this one. I can think of several scenarious where a missing M4 would go noticed for a couple hours. I am just interested as to which one really hapened. :)
Happens much more than folks realize.
Team member should receive multiple days off, and remedial training.
You're way too lenient. He should be fired. At best he should be removed from the team permanently. Sorry but leaving a loaded weapon laying around someones yard is pretty retarded, don care how tired you are.
CarlosDJackal
11-25-08, 17:15
IMHO, this is mostly a leadership issue. The Team Leader or Sergeant should have done a sensitive items check before they left the scene.
CarlosDJackal
11-25-08, 17:35
You're way too lenient. He should be fired. At best he should be removed from the team permanently. Sorry but leaving a loaded weapon laying around someones yard is pretty retarded, don care how tired you are.
I don't totally agree with this. If it were based on the officer's carelessness or if he/she were the type of individual who was always loosing shit, then yes. By all means get rid of them. But if this happened because of chronic fatigue due to the Operational OPTEMPO, then someone needs to put the Team and/or Department leadership under a microscope for allowing this to happen.
As a former Airborne Infantryman, I've seen the most hardcore, well-trained and disciplined Grunt do some strange things that is outside of their nature with the onset of chronic fatigue. I remember an E-6 Ranger Master Blaster and former RI drop his M-16A1 during a movement. Not only did he stop on or over it, so did the rest of his Squad. If the Medic who had been following the Squad had not tripped on the rifle, it probably would still be in the middle of that particular Tundra. The unfortunate thing was that he did have this rifle dummy-corded. But the 550 chord either broke or worked its way loose (I never heard). JM2CW.
Some communities/cities only have a SWAT Team as a part time, non-dedicated unit. They carry their weapons in their vehicles while on normal patrol and gather in the need of crisis. Unacceptable none-the-less.
telecustom
11-25-08, 18:55
Originally Posted by mmike87
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America.
We are in an M4 form and you don't think we should have those weapons in the US. I can't believe you wrote that.
Robb Jensen
11-25-08, 19:07
Originally Posted by mmike87
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America.
We are in an M4 form and you don't think we should have those weapons in the US. I can't believe you wrote that.
Dude he put a winking smiley.............he's joking!
RogerinTPA
11-25-08, 19:16
Team leader didn't account for his personnel and equipment at the site after the situation was neutralized. If the swat guy isn't fired, he should be made to wear a logger's chain around his neck with the M-4 attached to it and given an ASS HAT to wear for a calender year. ;)
geezerbutler
11-25-08, 19:45
Originally Posted by mmike87
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America.
We are in an M4 forum and you don't think we should have those weapons in the US. I can't believe you wrote that.
It looks like MMike87 was kidding.......You quote one of his posts, but not the follow-up.
Maybe you missed this :
mmike87 Online
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 331
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America.
__________________
"See, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns defend people against people with smaller guns." - American Dad
Reply With Quote
and this, in response to the others that thought he was serious.
mmike87
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10MMGary View Post
Can you say tongue in cheek? At least I read it that way.
Hence the "wink".
That's a favorite line of gun grabbers when trying to justify a new AWB.
Seriously - would I be on this site if I didn't think AR's were appropriate???
Or are you kidding too?:confused:
One guy on my department had his car stolen from him 20 years ago. He still gets shit to this day. This SWAT dude will never hear the end of this until he dies.
You're way too lenient. He should be fired. At best he should be removed from the team permanently. Sorry but leaving a loaded weapon laying around someones yard is pretty retarded, don care how tired you are.
You forget the FUMU principle -- he's now right in line to be Chief! :p
From the Obama site: "... as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets ... "
So I guess I was only paraphrasing.
I think some folks are a little quick on the draw so-to-speak with their keyboards.
Sergeant Hulka: "Lighten up, Francis!" :D
From the Obama site: "... as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets ... "
So I guess I was only paraphrasing.
I think some folks are a little quick on the draw so-to-speak with their keyboards.
Sergeant Hulka: "Lighten up, Francis!" :D
dammit...you beat me to it.....
You're way too lenient. He should be fired. At best he should be removed from the team permanently. Sorry but leaving a loaded weapon laying around someones yard is pretty retarded, don care how tired you are.
It depends. Days off would be my minimum.
The investment in a veteran officer, and an experienced tactical officer, is substantial. I wouldn't rule out reassignment, but more data is needed.
You forget the FUMU principle -- he's now right in line to be Chief! :p
Hehe...that's the way it works where I work!
He should have to take an Orange Gun on all future call outs and arrive at the scene like Private Pile in Full metal Jacket.. (sucking his thumb with his pants at his ankles)
FUMU means F**K Up, Move Up correct?
FUMU means F**K Up, Move Up correct?
Yep...
FUMU means F**K Up, Move Up correct?
Exactly. Also synonymous with the principle of "promoting someone out" - if you can't get rid of them at their current rank, promote them to a level where they'll have to be transferred, thus making them someone else's problem. This leads to the phenomenon of "promoting someone to the level of their own incompetence". It's all very complicated and requires a PhD in management to fully understand. ;)
JediMindTricks
11-26-08, 08:41
You're way too lenient. He should be fired. At best he should be removed from the team permanently. Sorry but leaving a loaded weapon laying around someones yard is pretty retarded, don care how tired you are.
Exactly. If it would of been any non LEO then they'd most likely lose their rifle, and go to jail!
At this point I would be happy if a SWAT team forgot a bunch of PMAGS on my front lawn . . .
CarlosDJackal
11-26-08, 09:40
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America. ;)
This pure and utter BS. We should all be allowed to own the same small arms our military issues. Comments like this really piss me the heck off!! :mad:
:D
JUST KIDDING!!
NCPatrolAR
11-26-08, 09:54
Exactly. If it would of been any non LEO then we'd they'd most likely lose their rifle, and go to jail!
What?
NCPatrolAR
11-26-08, 09:55
You're way too lenient. He should be fired.
Negative ghostrider
Business_Casual
11-26-08, 09:57
"Exactly. If it would of been any non LEO then we'd they'd most likely lose their rifle, and go to jail!
Maybe over there but not in the USA, dude.
M_P
Exactly. If it would of been any non LEO then we'd they'd most likely lose their rifle, and go to jail!
Nope. Folks lose guns more than makes the press, without arrest or sanction.
With some variance by location, folks imagine LE to be laying in wait much more than they actually are. :rolleyes:
Exactly. If it would of been any non LEO then we'd they'd most likely lose their rifle, and go to jail!
who would leave their AR lying in some random yard in a neighborhood?
this could only happen to a cop.. ironicly enough.
JediMindTricks
11-26-08, 12:30
What?
Corrected :D
JediMindTricks
11-26-08, 12:31
"Exactly. If it would of been any non LEO then we'd they'd most likely lose their rifle, and go to jail!
Maybe over there but not in the USA, dude.
M_P
Really...? I would figure that if I left a loaded "assault" rifle laying around then I would surely be arrested for some sort of negligence or something....?
In almost all circumstances in California, you would be...
Really...? I would figure that if I left a loaded "assault" rifle laying around then I would surely be arrested for some sort of negligence or something....?
depends on where you are and who's on duty... did you leave it lying on Dianne Fienstien's lawn? Or Bubba Billy Joe Wanewright in Hicksville Texas?
Really?
Go read Obama and Biden at change.gov
Instead of bashing this individual, whom I do not know. I will simply state that I am glad that noone was harmed due to this mistake.
Has anyone noticed that it always seems to be someone from a "special" unit who walks off and forgets a weapon? A SWAT officer leaves his carbine in someones yard. A K9 officer drops his pistol in a park and doesn't notice. A detective leaves his pistol on the back of a toilet.
There is a commonly held belief among specialized units that patrol is for those too dumb to qualify for other assignments. However, I can't remember the last time I heard of a patrol officer walking off and leaving a weapon in a public place.
Has anyone noticed that it always seems to be someone from a "special" unit who walks off and forgets a weapon? A SWAT officer leaves his carbine in someones yard. A K9 officer drops his pistol in a park and doesn't notice. A detective leaves his pistol on the back of a toilet.
There is a commonly held belief among specialized units that patrol is for those too dumb to qualify for other assignments. However, I can't remember the last time I heard of a patrol officer walking off and leaving a weapon in a public place.
Plane crashes make national news, car crashes don't make local papers.
Don Robison
11-29-08, 13:31
Has anyone noticed that it always seems to be someone from a "special" unit who walks off and forgets a weapon? A SWAT officer leaves his carbine in someones yard. A K9 officer drops his pistol in a park and doesn't notice. A detective leaves his pistol on the back of a toilet.
There is a commonly held belief among specialized units that patrol is for those too dumb to qualify for other assignments. However, I can't remember the last time I heard of a patrol officer walking off and leaving a weapon in a public place.
Could it be because those groups of people handle their weapons more than a patrol officer? jus sayin:rolleyes:
toddackerman
11-29-08, 18:30
Originally Posted by mmike87
This is why these weapons belong on the battlefields of Iraq and not the streets of America.
We are in an M4 form and you don't think we should have those weapons in the US. I can't believe you wrote that.
You might want to read the entire thread before posting. He said it was "Tongue and Cheek" in a later post.
And you might want to learn how to use the quote function to save yourself some time as well as spell check. It's an M4 Forum!
telecustom
11-29-08, 19:17
Yea, I figured that out after the 5th guy jumped my ass about it. Sorry, I have to deal with alot of anti-gun pussies and just get real touchy some times.
Has anyone noticed that it always seems to be someone from a "special" unit who walks off and forgets a weapon? A SWAT officer leaves his carbine in someones yard. A K9 officer drops his pistol in a park and doesn't notice. A detective leaves his pistol on the back of a toilet.
There is a commonly held belief among specialized units that patrol is for those too dumb to qualify for other assignments. However, I can't remember the last time I heard of a patrol officer walking off and leaving a weapon in a public place.
Those incidents occur far more than you realize.
Could it be because those groups of people handle their weapons more than a patrol officer? jus sayin:rolleyes:
Partially. Sometimes, having the impression of being "special" means that the rules, cautions, and expectations don't apply.
Don Robison
11-29-08, 22:14
Partially. Sometimes, having the impression of being "special" means that the rules, cautions, and expectations don't apply.
I know, I've dealt with it for close to 20 years. Sometime guys start believing their own press and get lazy.
He has caused embarrassment for himself, his team and his department. Imagine if his weapon was later found at the scene of a major crime.
I would have more respect for that officer if he, on his own, resigned from the team. He should do it before being disciplined or before being asked to leave by others (i.e. team mates or the brass). And that's what should be expected- Even if the incident didn't make news media.
One of my agency's special weapons teams had a member who missed a gun while searching a female. He resigned from the team. It was over 20yrs ago and people still whisper about it when he enters a room, but no one jokes about it. To resign on your own says a lot about someone's integrity and honor.
St.Michael
12-01-08, 12:52
I think sometimes we also forget a couple of things.
1. Swat members normally have to go through more pt tests and testing/training before they even become swat. That said even getting on swat is a pretty good accomplishment. If it wasn't we would all be SWAT. Meaning he can't be a total tool.
2. We are all human. I know not one person on this site can say they have never accidentally made a mistake with a firearm. I am only 23 and I have made a bunch, but I learn from them.
3. Just because he is swat doesn't make him God. I mean he is not a complete idiot and made one mistake. That is no reason to throw him to the dogs.
4. We should not be so quick to judge or guess why this guy ****ed up. You never know how bad HIS day is going.
rubberneck
12-01-08, 13:13
A couple of years ago a Federal Air Marshall took her gun off her belt while using the toilet and left it behind only to be found by someone else a short time later. Bare in mind this was in the terminal area of the airport which is beyond security. She got in a lot of trouble for it but IIRC she kept her job.
Some years back, while setting up a qualification session for our officers, I happened to check over in the adjacent bay. An unattended MP5 was sitting on a table there--with absolutely no one around. I had another guy watch it while I went in search of the owners. Found a couple members of the local PD in a range shack a couple of hundred yards away, out of sight and hearing, taking life easy. I asked them if they had left anything on the range, and after a little thought they allowed as maybe they had. One of them finally sauntered over and took the SMG away.
I was not too impressed. The more I thought about it the more I wished I had just tossed it into my vehicle and kept quiet about it for 24 hours or so--then made a casual inquiry with his agency.
I suppose anytime you are dealing with human nature this can happen--witness the USAF misplacing nuclear warheads--but it does creep you out!
(And yes--I have dealt with nukes and agency MP5s. Sometimes paranoia is exactly what is needed.:rolleyes:)
Yea, I figured that out after the 5th guy jumped my ass about it. Sorry, I have to deal with alot of anti-gun pussies and just get real touchy some times.
Try having a liberal brother who feels the constitution is flawed and should be discarded.
While unacceptable I believe it’s a training issue. IMHO most LEs take it all for granted for they are above those of us who really understand and train. While most SWAT guys do spend a little more time with their weapons than patrol officers most of them just look at it as a job and don’t put fourth the extra effort to really learn the principles of running and operating their weapons to a higher efficiency like most on this forum. They assume that what they are being taught is good enough.
I assure you a few minutes with Super Dave and that guy will understand positive control. He will not only understand it he will then preach it!
IMHO, this is mostly a leadership issue. The Team Leader or Sergeant should have done a sensitive items check before they left the scene.
Agree with the gear check. I think it's partially a leadership issue; mostly an individual performance issue.
Those incidents occur far more than you realize.
Yes, they do indeed.
Swat members normally have to go through more pt tests and testing/training before they even become swat. That said even getting on swat is a pretty good accomplishment. If it wasn't we would all be SWAT. Meaning he can't be a total tool.
Methinks you presume too much... There are always those infiltrators who make it through selection only to implode later.
I know not one person on this site can say they have never accidentally made a mistake with a firearm.
Objection: speculation, argumentative.
I mean he is not a complete idiot and made one mistake. That is no reason to throw him to the dogs.
I don't think suspension/removal from the team would rise to the level of "throwing him to the dogs". And some "mistakes" bear more weight than others...
We should not be so quick to judge or guess why this guy ****ed up. You never know how bad HIS day is going.
JMO, the way I see it, people in that role are expected to be able to switch on and stay in that mode. How his day is/was going up to that point is irrelevant.
An unattended MP5 was sitting on a table there... Found a couple members of the local PD in a range shack a couple of hundred yards away, out of sight and hearing, taking life easy. I asked them if they had left anything on the range, and after a little thought they allowed as maybe they had...
Oh, what a missed opportunity! You could have disassembled it, down to the very last roll pin, before taking the box of parts over.
Yea, I figured that out after the 5th guy jumped my ass about it. Sorry, I have to deal with alot of anti-gun pussies and just get real touchy some times.
No worries. I feel the same way most of the time. :)
desertram800
12-02-08, 08:12
I wouldn't have him fired, it was a mistake. A really big, stupid mistake that discredited the entire department, but corrective action would be more benificial than losing an asset that already has experience and training. I'm thinking more along the lines of a few weeks of traffic duty or meter maid duty, the entire time carrying a REDGUN M16 with a sling, everywhere, the crapper, the locker room, the breakroom, everywhere. The weapon should never have left his immediate physical control. That's what slings are for. In Iraq, I went into a porta-crapper and someone had left their M4 in it! I turned it into the CSM, I don't even want to know what happened to that poor guy (or gal).
I think sometimes we also forget a couple of things.
1. Swat members normally have to go through more pt tests and testing/training before they even become swat. That said even getting on swat is a pretty good accomplishment. If it wasn't we would all be SWAT. Meaning he can't be a total tool.
Most would regard the SLC team as GTG. I suspect that he was screened, trained, and supervised reasonably well.
Don't overestimate those processes other places though. In some agencies, every tool in the in the box is on the team. Some go by seniority. Some don't have PT or skill testing. Psychological? Bwahahaaha. Everybody has a SWAT team these days.
St.Michael
12-02-08, 11:16
While unacceptable I believe it’s a training issue. IMHO most LEs take it all for granted for they are above those of us who really understand and train. While most SWAT guys do spend a little more time with their weapons than patrol officers most of them just look at it as a job and don’t put fourth the extra effort to really learn the principles of running and operating their weapons to a higher efficiency like most on this forum. They assume that what they are being taught is good enough.
I assure you a few minutes with Super Dave and that guy will understand positive control. He will not only understand it he will then preach it!
yea man this is totally true. You MIGHT find a cop who takes it to the limit, but most don't train not only in firearms but also self defense. I know a lot of LEO where I live and talk to them about training all the time. They don't do it, they don't care to at all. some of the LEO that have even been on the job a while still have that mentality that they have a baton and will use it or a weapon if they get into a sticky situation. I was always brought up with the idea of "how you train so shall you fight". I was working with a cop in my martial arts school and he had NO idea what we were doing and lacked some VERY basic self defense skills. Don't get me wrong he is a great fighter and is in amazing shape, but his training was limited for sure. ( I am not trying to insult ANYONE. This is just from what LEO of my area have actually said and shown me)
Nathan_Bell
12-02-08, 13:29
Team leader didn't account for his personnel and equipment at the site after the situation was neutralized. If the swat guy isn't fired, he should be made to wear a logger's chain around his neck with the M-4 attached to it and given an ASS HAT to wear for a calender year. ;)
My favorite punishment yet. Even without it he/she will be hearing about this until the day they die.
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