View Full Version : Take An Extra Upper Or Complete Rifle To Class
I'm getting ready for my first civilian rifle/pistol class in August. If something goes down, I don't want to mess around fixing it, I'll just grab my spare. I'm taking two Glock 19's, but I can't decide whether to throw an extra upper in my rifle case or throw an extra AR in the truck. My primary is a almost new registered 6933 with well used BCM 11.5 in upper (favorite rifle). Is there enough chance of a major problem with the lower to justify taking another complete rifle, or just throw a spare upper in my case?
for any class (pistol, rifle, shotgun) i always bring a complete backup
I can't decide whether to throw an extra upper in my rifle case or throw an extra AR in the truck.
I strongly recommend taking an extra AR, not just an upper.
Also, consider the fact that you might loan it to someone else whose rifle goes down.
Joe Mamma
WickedWillis
06-01-20, 14:22
Complete backup rifle. Upper is nice in theory, and certainly better than nothing, but if your lower goes TU you are going to have to sit out.
Extra rifle. I had an issue with my primary at a class with Kyle Defoor two weeks ago. I grabbed my backup and continued the class with no further problems.
If I had the room for three rifles and three pistols, I'd take three.
Murphy's Law dictates that weird shit happens when you least expect it. Guns in your safe do you no good when you are at a class that you paid good money for and 2 guns go down in one in a million long shot events. I've had it happen to me, hence the reason I suggest bringing three if you can.
Damn, that truly is some bad luck! Ok, extra complete rifle it is. Thank you all for the responses.
The_War_Wagon
06-02-20, 09:52
for any class (pistol, rifle, shotgun) i always bring a complete backup
Because if something breaks, it'll probably be in the LOWER (crappy BCG's notwithstanding).
Because if something breaks, it'll probably be in the LOWER (crappy BCG's notwithstanding).
I didn't know that. I would have figured it would have been the opposite. Of course, the BCG was what was on my mind as well. I've even had the gas tube and gas key peen against each other enough on a quality brand upper to cause a complete stoppage before I figured out what was going on. Wait, that involves the BCG as well, doesn't it?;)
Yeah, always bring a back up for at least the primary weapon you'll be using in the class. I had a whoopsie moment when building my first AR many years ago, and it wouldn't fire the harder primers on the M193 ammo I had for the class. (it had fired commercial stuff beforehand just fine) Thankfully I had my SCAR as a backup and completed the class with it.
Given that you are going to be moving in a vehicle, weight is not a consideration and length/displacement probably isn't either, I'd take a complete rifle. As long as it's a rifle you have used and it's been proven reliable with the mag/ammo you will be using. If weight and space are an issue, then i'd do the upper and small selection of parts for the lower. Back when my money was tighter, I had no problem going to a carbine class with a spare complete bolt, cam pin, firing pin and firing pin retaining pin, plus oil. Having a complete rifle ready to go and zeroed in will get you back on the training line the fastest.
In my limited experience of 15yrs AD and going to carbine courses (including EAG), most of the issues I've observed have been upper issues. Specifically sheared bolt lugs, broken bolts (USGI, multiple deployments and train up), a lose gas key (on a frankengun at a class), missing gas rings and Optic malfunctions. It must be noted that 90+% of the shooting I observed both in uniform and out was Semi Auto, full auto is a different game. I had to really think IOT remember a lower receiver malfunction. The only lower issues I've actually witnessed was a group of SIG rifles that had defective magazine catches (4-5 rifles that had been purchased at the same time from the same lot). I have seen guys lose lower parts when they dissembled their trigger groups in the field and one basic trainee that lost his take down pin detent while "cleaning his rifle". I can't recall ever seeing a lower receiver damaged to the point it couldn't be used, even with ones that had been in IED strikes. Your mileage will of course vary, I'm told that parachute jumps tend break rifles in the strangest ways. Also full auto fire will strain different parts of the gun. We had to deadline some 249s at one point because their receiver welds where breaking.
Rifle.
Having taken and taught courses over the last few decades I've had two failures of my own:
a broken 723 bolt in a Fort Bragg course using a student weapon with untold rounds on it, and --
a broken extractor pin at the Atlantic Fleet and east coast All-Navy matches.
The last time I saw someone with anything in a broken lower, he'd broken the plastic butt stock on an M4, mortar-clearing a stoppage from a bad round.
You can always cannibalize pieces-parts off the spare gun.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-31-20, 01:06
The nice thing about a complete gun is that you just swap it with out having to do any thinking to make sure that it is an upper that is messing up.That being said, a spare BCG, upper and complete rifle depending on your resources. I put all my guns in a soft side golf travel bag, and literally roll it. Two long guns, two handguns and 2k rounds easy peasy, no hotel lobby odd looks for all you 511 bags....
Full spare, justification being the loaner gun. Prep it as the loaner setup, and I usually make that into the better tool... or I'll drag my wife's setup along. Frustrating answer is that I make better carbines for her than I do for myself, so it's just riding along taunting me.
Just an update after my question on how the class went. I took my favorite rifle that had never malfunctioned as my primary. I had one squib the first day and was able to switch to my spare before extracting the spent case during lunch. The second day I had another squib that blew the primer and shut the rifle down completely until after the class. Again, my spare carried me through. Good advice guys, my class would have been a bust without a spare.
In case anyone is wondering, the ammo was Hornady Frontier .223 55gr out of the same case. The class itself was awesome and I would recommend a Pat Mac class to anyone. Money well spent.
Just an update after my question on how the class went. I took my favorite rifle that had never malfunctioned as my primary. I had one squib the first day and was able to switch to my spare before extracting the spent case during lunch. The second day I had another squib that blew the primer and shut the rifle down completely until after the class. Again, my spare carried me through. Good advice guys, my class would have been a bust without a spare.
In case anyone is wondering, the ammo was Hornady Frontier .223 55gr out of the same case. The class itself was awesome and I would recommend a Pat Mac class to anyone. Money well spent.
Squibs are scary. We had a guy blow the crap out of a nearly new BCM at our last class due to one.
When did you buy that Hornady? They have had some serious issues with that ammo- your gun would not be the first that got blown up.....
I took only my handloads to classes for that reason. I can eyeball every single primer and output charge, and I've handled every single piece of ammo that will be run.... even if it is just FMJ.
I took only my handloads to classes for that reason. I can eyeball every single primer and output charge, and I've handled every single piece of ammo that will be run.... even if it is just FMJ.
That's funny to me. The guy that blew the crap out of his BCM at my last course.....was shooting his own reloads.
We were doing a three shot drill. I actually was watching him as I was right behind him in the second relay of shooters. First round went BOOM, then I saw him do "immediate action"- he had the squib and it failed to eject the case fully, next round, full power, KABOOM! Blew mag out of the bottom of the gun, split the upper, bolt was mangled, even toasted his Eotech.....Somehow, he walked away without a scratch....
PracticalRifleman
08-12-20, 14:50
When I travel to a class, I take two backup rifles. I did loan one out to another student in a class. Same for pistol courses. I’ve never taken a shotgun course, but I’d do the same we’re I to go. I’ve seen so many shotguns go down just hunting and shooting clays that I wouldn’t trust having just one for a training class.
On reloads: there is a difference between reloads and handloads. There are people good at it and people not so good at it, just as any discipline. Good handloads are better than the best factory ammo, but bad handloads are worse than most al factory ammunition.
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When I travel to a class, I take two backup rifles. I did loan one out to another student in a class. Same for pistol courses. I’ve never taken a shotgun course, but I’d do the same we’re I to go. I’ve seen so many shotguns go down just hunting and shooting clays that I wouldn’t trust having just one for a training class.
On reloads: there is a difference between reloads and handloads. There are people good at it and people not so good at it, just as any discipline. Good handloads are better than the best factory ammo, but bad handloads are worse than most al factory ammunition.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolute truth. I always take a spare gun and have lent them out and even went to them myself a time or two. If you travel and invest the money etc...in a class, it's really mandatory I think. There's a lot on the line--time, expense etc... to get sidelined by a gun that goes down.
That's funny to me. The guy that blew the crap out of his BCM at my last course.....was shooting his own reloads.
We were doing a three shot drill. I actually was watching him as I was right behind him in the second relay of shooters. First round went BOOM, then I saw him do "immediate action"- he had the squib and it failed to eject the case fully, next round, full power, KABOOM! Blew mag out of the bottom of the gun, split the upper, bolt was mangled, even toasted his Eotech.....Somehow, he walked away without a scratch....
That's crazy. There's definitely a segment of shooters who reload for volume/savings instead of quality. Not the case with me.
I get why some instructors frown on reloads in class for the previous Kaboom example/reason.
That's crazy. There's definitely a segment of shooters who reload for volume/savings instead of quality. Not the case with me.
I get why some instructors frown on reloads in class for the previous Kaboom example/reason.
Young guy, just spent a ton of money to go to a class, ammo hard to find, expensive, doesnt want to shoot up his small stash of factory.....I get it but his reloading skills had issues. When policing up brass I found more than one round near his position with sideways primers etc....that he had ejected onto the ground....He got lucky it was just the gun...
Expensive lesson. Sucks he blew up a good gun too.
2 is 1
1 is none.
Bring 2 guns
Squib may not be the correct term. First primer was pushed out, second blew out. Cases swelled and stuck in the chamber. Bullets were still in the case. The ammo was purchased about a month and a half ago. Id say CS is hurting as they push out volume.
I had a scope go down during a Precision Rifle class almost 20 years ago and had to use a loaner rifle. I bring a 2nd rifle to every class I attend ever since. I have literally never needed it since, but it's there.
titsonritz
11-02-20, 14:14
I take at least two guns to classes I attend doesn't matter if its a pistol, shotgun or rifle course. I bring parts too but that would be for working on down time in the class, I'll just grab another gun and keep going if something goes down during the class.
Lube lube lube....
We see a bunch of guns in class that are dry as a bone and people wonder why they are having problems.
got a lot of faith in your gun, doncha? All I've ever done is use 12 squirts of WD 40 into the gun before shooting and I"ve never once had a problem with an AR. I've owned half a dozen of them, half of them Colts.
got a lot of faith in your gun, doncha? All I've ever done is use 12 squirts of WD 40 into the gun before shooting and I"ve never once had a problem with an AR. I've owned half a dozen of them, half of them Colts.
How much did your rifles cost? How much did the Space Shuttle cost? Seen that bitch turn into a bottle rocket.....TWICE...You do you, Im taking a spare rifle.
got a lot of faith in your gun, doncha? All I've ever done is use 12 squirts of WD 40 into the gun before shooting and I"ve never once had a problem with an AR. I've owned half a dozen of them, half of them Colts.
64296
I too am in the belief that you must take the whole spare rifle. At a training class out of state a couple of years ago I thought I'd save weight by taking just my upper as a spare. Well, when my rifle had some problems during class I was able to switch out parts and get it running again and didn't need the spare upper. BUT, in my haste to pack I didn't realize that my 20" barrel upper would not work well on my 16" optimized lowe. Meaning the buffer spring and buffer would need replacing on the lower for proper cycling.
Just switching rifles would have been much easier and quicker! Lesson learned!
titsonritz
05-13-21, 13:42
I always take a minimum of two rifles with me to classes, usually more plus spare parts. Training is an investment in time and money, I’m not going to gamble on a lone rifle going down after going through the effort to make to a class.
I bring an extra rifle as well as spare parts. Once I lent out a sling, another time I replaced an extractor for another student. You never know, classes are expensive, sometimes require you to take days off and or get hotel rooms. It would be terrible if you can't continue because some stupid part broke.
tanksoldier
05-22-21, 00:44
Originally Posted by tellum
got a lot of faith in your gun, doncha? All I've ever done is use 12 squirts of WD 40 into the gun before shooting and I"ve never once had a problem with an AR. I've owned half a dozen of them, half of them Colts.
WTF? I've seen Colts go TU in Iraq more than once. Anything can break. You're spending probably thousands of dollars to attend a course... travel, ammo purchase, time off, whatever... but you're only going to bring one gun?
I went up to a class recently and one of the guys had a malfunctioning safety. He had no back-up but even if he brought an upper only he still would have been out of luck.
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