View Full Version : Defunding the Police and the War on Cops
titsonritz
06-06-20, 21:21
So we've got rioters attacking and in some cases killing police, mayors calling cops killers, Portland wants to get rid of SRO, (yeah, that'll make the schools safer) and entire SRT saying F' you and quitting. Police are tasked with an incredibly difficult and many times thankless job, most do it with honor and integrity but every once in while some asshole kills some other worthless asshole and all hell breaks loose. Is it time to "defund" the police like some are screaming for or would that make matters far worse? I know there is no way in hell I'd work as a cop in one of these major cities that tie their hands and allow criminals and homeless to rule the streets and demonize the police for trying to do there job. Shitty time to be a cop.
Nationwide protests over the Minneapolis police killing of George Floyd, the latest in a long string of high-profile slayings of black men by white officers, have featured a common rallying cry: “Defund the police.”
The movement predates the current protests and is driven both by anger at the militarized posture of many U.S. police departments and by the recognition they are being called on to confront social ills including addiction, mental illness and homelessness that, advocates say, could be better addressed by spending on social services and rethinking what behaviors should be considered crimes.
Demands on streets from New York to Los Angeles have given higher prominence to the idea, drawing the attention of big-city mayors and on the presidential campaign trail.
U.S. protesters call to 'Defund the Police.' What would that look like? (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-defunding-explaine/us-protesters-call-to-defund-the-police-what-would-that-look-like-idUSKBN23C2I9)
LA Mayor Garcetti Calls His Cops 'Killers.' The 'Killers' Just Sent a Reply to the 'Unstable' Mayor (https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/victoria-taft/2020/06/06/la-mayor-garcetti-calls-his-cops-killers-the-killers-just-sent-a-reply-to-the-unstable-mayor-n502267)
Portland Public Schools cutting school resource officers (https://katu.com/news/local/portland-public-schools-will-discontinue-regular-presence-of-school-resource-officers)
57 Buffalo cops resign from response team after officers suspended for shoving 75-year-old man to ground; DA investigating incident (https://www.foxnews.com/us/da-investigating-buffalo-cops-shove-old-man)
So we've got rioters attacking and in some cases killing police, mayors calling cops killers, Portland wants to get rid of SRO, (yeah, that'll make the schools safer) and entire SRT saying F' you and quitting. Police are tasked with an incredibly difficult and many times thankless job, most do it with honor and integrity but every once in while some asshole kills some other worthless asshole and all hell breaks loose. Is it time to "defund" the police like some are screaming for or would that make matters far worse? I know there is no way in hell I'd work as a cop in one of these major cities that tie their hands and allow criminals and homeless to rule the streets and demonize the police for trying to do there job. Shitty time to be a cop.
Nationwide protests over the Minneapolis police killing of George Floyd, the latest in a long string of high-profile slayings of black men by white officers, have featured a common rallying cry: “Defund the police.”
The movement predates the current protests and is driven both by anger at the militarized posture of many U.S. police departments and by the recognition they are being called on to confront social ills including addiction, mental illness and homelessness that, advocates say, could be better addressed by spending on social services and rethinking what behaviors should be considered crimes.
Demands on streets from New York to Los Angeles have given higher prominence to the idea, drawing the attention of big-city mayors and on the presidential campaign trail.
U.S. protesters call to 'Defund the Police.' What would that look like? (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-defunding-explaine/us-protesters-call-to-defund-the-police-what-would-that-look-like-idUSKBN23C2I9)
LA Mayor Garcetti Calls His Cops 'Killers.' The 'Killers' Just Sent a Reply to the 'Unstable' Mayor (https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/victoria-taft/2020/06/06/la-mayor-garcetti-calls-his-cops-killers-the-killers-just-sent-a-reply-to-the-unstable-mayor-n502267)
Portland Public Schools cutting school resource officers (https://katu.com/news/local/portland-public-schools-will-discontinue-regular-presence-of-school-resource-officers)
57 Buffalo cops resign from response team after officers suspended for shoving 75-year-old man to ground; DA investigating incident (https://www.foxnews.com/us/da-investigating-buffalo-cops-shove-old-man)
"Just call the police".... lol, lol, lol.....
In case you haven't been paying attention these are the rules:
1. Nobody is coming to save you.
2. Everything is your responsibility.
3. Save who needs to be saved.
4. Kill who needs to be killed.
5. Always be working
Straight Shooter
06-06-20, 21:46
So, to ask what is more than likely a stupid question..what does "defund the police" actually mean?
Does it mean-NO local, state or federal money for a police force? No police at all?
Are they actually calling for our society to not have police? Or am I missing/not understanding the term "defund"?
That's such an incredibly bad idea that will make supporters regret the day they first contemplated it that I almost wish it would happen. You think cities are burning now, just wait.
The reason the Rodney King riots got so out of hand is because the cops pulled out and left everyone to handle whatever on their own. The only ones up to the task were a group of Koreans. The day the police abandon NYC, Chicago or LA is the day those cities burn to the ground.
That's such an incredibly bad idea that will make supporters regret the day they first contemplated it that I almost wish it would happen. You think cities are burning now, just wait.
The reason the Rodney King riots got so out of hand is because the cops pulled out and left everyone to handle whatever on their own. The only ones up to the task were a group of Koreans. The day the police abandon NYC, Chicago or LA is the day those cities burn to the ground.
We now live in clown world where attempting to highlight the lack of accountability of black democratic lawmakers, if not liberal politicians in general, in these cesspool cities is vehemently regarded as racist.
They deserve the outcome of whatever choices they make.
https://www.facebook.com/robsmithbk/videos/2292545824198526/?vh=e
Video won’t imbed but if anyone bookfaces it’s relevant
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We now live in clown world where attempting to highlight the lack of accountability of black democratic lawmakers, if not liberal politicians in general, in these cesspool cities is vehemently regarded as racist.
They deserve the outcome of whatever choices they make.
https://www.facebook.com/robsmithbk/videos/2292545824198526/?vh=e
Video won’t imbed but if anyone bookfaces it’s relevant
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Only problem is those trapped behind the lines who don't support such idiocy don't deserve the consequences. Otherwise, yeah...it's getting pretty bizarre lately.
BoringGuy45
06-06-20, 23:34
I actually agree, to a point, that more funds SHOULD be put towards social services that could take the burden off of the police. Cops are called to solve problems that usually require master's degrees to solve, and with only about 8 hours of crash course training. It didn't used to be that way. Other mobile crisis services did used to exist in many cities, but were disbanded due to budget. But because the problems didn't go away, the cities just made the cops, the only ones available, do it. With more specific services like that, you actually could reduce the size of PDs, as their call volumes would be greatly reduced.
That being said, the people calling for this have a pipe dream that police are unneeded, and that social work and community conflict resolution groups can completely render law enforcement obsolete. Sorry, that's just not gonna happen.
Only problem is those trapped behind the lines who don't support such idiocy don't deserve the consequences. Otherwise, yeah...it's getting pretty bizarre lately.
No they do not. But they’re the only ones who can do anything about changing unfortunately.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I actually agree, to a point, that more funds SHOULD be put towards social services that could take the burden off of the police. Cops are called to solve problems that usually require master's degrees to solve, and with only about 8 hours of crash course training. It didn't used to be that way. Other mobile crisis services did used to exist in many cities, but were disbanded due to budget. But because the problems didn't go away, the cities just made the cops, the only ones available, do it. With more specific services like that, you actually could reduce the size of PDs, as their call volumes would be greatly reduced.
That being said, the people calling for this have a pipe dream that police are unneeded, and that social work and community conflict resolution groups can completely render law enforcement obsolete. Sorry, that's just not gonna happen.
Actually from the logical "fix a problem" perspective such as the one you advocated, I would tend to agree with that position as well. Law enforcement, for better or worse, has largely become a "one size fits all" social solution. Part of the problem is we have dangerous individuals walking around free that once upon a time would be institutionalized but now they are simply medicated into a sometimes compliant state and at the other end of the spectrum you have people calling the cops because "my kid stole my weed."
HardToHandle
06-07-20, 00:17
Isn’t defunding just the Purge in action?
https://youtu.be/us_0aLWOa8E
Defund the Police and that 8 Points they want done are really stupid.
The rank and file of the police should unify and give in to this idea. Yes, a trial run should be done by every police officer calling in sick for 3 days.
You take a car you want to buy out for a test ride, let the nation test ride this stupid idea.
The_War_Wagon
06-07-20, 06:04
The rank and file of the police should unify and give in to this idea. Yes, a trial run should be done by every police officer calling in sick for 3 days.
You take a car you want to buy out for a test ride, let the nation test ride this stupid idea.
Isn’t defunding just the Purge in action?
Yes.
Yes it would be.
Business_Casual
06-07-20, 06:07
Who will Karen call if they defund the police?
https://youtu.be/95O3HJewq8s
I retired 3.5 years ago, we would normally have 8-10 guys on a shift per Pct. On average there would be at least 1, usually 2 per day, per shift. Mandatory 2 officers per mental case which usually took 6-8 hours to end. So, there's 1/4 if not more of your manpower on those cases alone. Then all of the overdose cases didn't help either. Trying to remember, think it was 6 hours to place them and if no bed, the person was kicked loose if no charges. A politician's son was one of these cases and died afterwards somehow, OD I think. Well guess what?-yeah, extended to 12 hours by law.
I actually agree, to a point, that more funds SHOULD be put towards social services that could take the burden off of the police. Cops are called to solve problems that usually require master's degrees to solve, and with only about 8 hours of crash course training. It didn't used to be that way. Other mobile crisis services did used to exist in many cities, but were disbanded due to budget. But because the problems didn't go away, the cities just made the cops, the only ones available, do it. With more specific services like that, you actually could reduce the size of PDs, as their call volumes would be greatly reduced.
That being said, the people calling for this have a pipe dream that police are unneeded, and that social work and community conflict resolution groups can completely render law enforcement obsolete. Sorry, that's just not gonna happen.
That's such an incredibly bad idea that will make supporters regret the day they first contemplated it that I almost wish it would happen. You think cities are burning now, just wait.
The reason the Rodney King riots got so out of hand is because the cops pulled out and left everyone to handle whatever on their own. The only ones up to the task were a group of Koreans. The day the police abandon NYC, Chicago or LA is the day those cities burn to the ground.
One month of blue flu in those cities would see them all but destroyed.
One month of blue flu in those cities would see them all but destroyed.
And the country would be better for it. We've had it too easy for too long.
One month of blue flu in those cities would see them all but destroyed.
It's started. Minneapolis is reporting that 14 officers resigned and 46 other officers retired early. Buffalo New York PD saw 60 officers resign from ERT, which reduces the number of crowd control personnel to control rioters (not protestors).
In our area, we are not seeing a lot more violence outside of the biggest city, but we are seeing Anarchist and ANTIFA graffiti and vandalism. The police chased a carload of ANTIFA and lost them somewhere in town.
Most of the far left, many wealthy, could not care less about inner city people or how they are treated by police. They also relish the idea of a city like Chicago burning to the ground without police presence.
BoringGuy45
06-07-20, 08:28
And the country would be better for it. We've had it too easy for too long.
Of course, the further the pendulum swings in one direction, the further it will swing back. The prevailing thought would be "Democracy didn't work, anarchy didn't work...dictatorship maybe??"
So, to ask what is more than likely a stupid question..what does "defund the police" actually mean?
Does it mean-NO local, state or federal money for a police force? No police at all?
Are they actually calling for our society to not have police? Or am I missing/not understanding the term "defund"?
I think it's intentionally vague, and that works to the advantage of both sides. Nobody has to provide honest options, and it sounds good. "Yeah, take them Pig's money away!" and "Oh no, they're trying to shut down every police department across the nation!" It helps rile up the base, which is all both sides of any issue care about doing any more.
Honestly, defunding police departments makes absolute sense. Yank federal funding for MRAPs and automatic weapons. Pull back funds used to support and justify no-knock raids, and the militarization of law enforcement in general. Hell, even funds that go to replacing vehicles every few years can be yanked, as they might encourage more foot patrols than cruising around.
Of course, the further the pendulum swings in one direction, the further it will swing back. The prevailing thought would be "Democracy didn't work, anarchy didn't work...dictatorship maybe??"
We're already seeing that to a certain extent. The lengths people have gone to justify police abuses of power or made calls for police to be "let off the leash" to "tame the animals" (quotes from oh so wonderful FB conversations) indicates that people would love nothing more than to see some dictatorial powers, at least for their side.
I think it's intentionally vague, and that works to the advantage of both sides. Nobody has to provide honest options, and it sounds good. "Yeah, take them Pig's money away!" and "Oh no, they're trying to shut down every police department across the nation!" It helps rile up the base, which is all both sides of any issue care about doing any more.
Honestly, defunding police departments makes absolute sense. Yank federal funding for MRAPs and automatic weapons. Pull back funds used to support and justify no-knock raids, and the militarization of law enforcement in general. Hell, even funds that go to replacing vehicles every few years can be yanked, as they might encourage more foot patrols than cruising around.
We're already seeing that to a certain extent. The lengths people have gone to justify police abuses of power or made calls for police to be "let off the leash" to "tame the animals" (quotes from oh so wonderful FB conversations) indicates that people would love nothing more than to see some dictatorial powers, at least for their side.
That's pretty well my take on it. Ditch victimless crimes (war on drugs and it's incestuous relation with the war on the 2nd Amendment and Constitution in general) and focus on actual crime where a person or their property is damaged.
With creative terminology, "defunding" could actually be a windfall.
Of course, the further the pendulum swings in one direction, the further it will swing back. The prevailing thought would be "Democracy didn't work, anarchy didn't work...dictatorship maybe??"
Cycles of history. Hard times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. Lather, rinse, repeat ad infinitum...
I just want to point out to everyone here that cries about the militarization of the police. The facts support better training and better equipment has reduced police shooting in the last 20 or so years I have hear the figure is 75% less police shootings.
We wouldn’t need the police nearly to the extent that we do if it wasn’t for enforcing stupid laws that shouldn’t exist.
I’ll all for cutting the numbers of laws in half and cutting down the police to match.
I’m 37 years old. In my experience the Police have not been there for me in my life. Robbed?, house broken into? No help, they take a half assed report, poke around and shrug thier shoulders. Other the one time when the officer told me he knew who the four individuals were, they were under 18 and there was nothing he could/would do.
Meanwhile I watch criminality around all the time. Drugs sold on street corners, Bums begging at every corner, graffiti all over the city. These are things I want stopped and they are not.
I have been pulled over and given speeding tickets plenty in my life. The most they have done is cost me money for speeding in zones that are outrageously low marked limits, almost like they want though to speed so they can ticket you.
So I can do with out the Police. I can especially do with out the militariazation of the police. Until I feel like police actually act in my best interest and make my world more enjoyable to be in I am certainly not a ‘back the blue’ type. To me cops are just people, and like people, some are good some are not. They work a job they picked, it was their choice, don’t like it? become a firefighter.
Oh, and don’t even get me started on the fact they get to ‘investigate themselves’ if you don’t think that little system is rife with room for abuse you’re not paying attention.
Blaming the police for bums on the streets, makes no sense to me. Blame the politicians.
Blame the system that politicians created that turned burglary into a nothing crime.
Blame yourself for allowing it to happen.
A man went to his Rabbi, and complained about hoe G-D wasn't fair, his house was so small, his wife and kids were making him crazy. The Rabbi thought about and told the man to bring his cow and his goats into the house. The man did so, about a week later they ran into each other. The Rabbi told him to remove the animals from his house. A week later, the rabbi called the man to meet him. The Rabbi asked so how is your house? The man replied he now loves his house with no animals inside.
Go live in Africa for a month. Don't rent a hotel room in a nice hotel. Rent a house in a normal middle class neighborhood. Then talk to me about American police when you get home to the USA.
Go live in Africa for a month.
Yeah, I've been there. I've also lived for several months in middle-class Port-au-Prince, Haiti, where we actively had to protect citizens from police. They're shitholes, no doubt. That doesn't really help your case, though. The US was supposed to be the "city on a hill" the shining light of freedom and civil liberties, not "well, we're better than the worst places on Earth, so eh, good enough." Just because other places have it worse doesn't mean we shouldn't address the problems we do have.
That's pretty well my take on it. Ditch victimless crimes (war on drugs and it's incestuous relation with the war on the 2nd Amendment and Constitution in general) and focus on actual crime where a person or their property is damaged.
Good thing drug users don't commit a whole bunch of property crimes to fund their habit...
Averageman
06-07-20, 12:26
That's pretty well my take on it. Ditch victimless crimes (war on drugs and it's incestuous relation with the war on the 2nd Amendment and Constitution in general) and focus on actual crime where a person or their property is damaged.
With creative terminology, "defunding" could actually be a windfall.
Here is my take on that; People get the Police force they want via the Politicians they vote for and the general hue and cry from the Citizens.
We have a neighbor web site, One recent gem was "My neighbor is shooting off Fireworks at 8:45 pm, Should I call the Cops?
People are jerks, but they don't want to be a jerk in person so they send the Cops over to "Fix you right up." They make the problem worse, by not stepping up themselves and asking politely, they rat you out anonymously and kind of hope you end up tazed and in the drunk tank.
Cops suck because People and Politicians suck.
Cops aren't writing the laws or calling the mayor over some measly thing or another. They've usually got enough to do without playing the ticket game around here.
But all it takes if one F'ed up Cop and we want to burn down the system?
Good thing drug users don't commit a whole bunch of property crimes to fund their habit...
The theft of property in those instances is the issue, not what they are doing with the proceeds.
The war on drugs has been going on for decades now with nothing approaching a positive to show for it.
Just off the top of my head:
1) like alcohol prohibition it breeds official corruption deciding winners and losers in the game and the lucrative aspect of illicit goods has given us super criminals then and now.
2) the war on the 2nd Amendment(and other rights) are inextricably linked. Giving the news a sound bite about gun used in crime is not helping us in addition to the legislation resulting from it to keep the game going.
3) the forbidden is appealing. Non gun owners often become gun owners when the powers that be start talking bans. It may not be a huge segment of society, but there is a typical human nature reason to think that ending prohibition would negate the appeal for some.
morbidbattlecry
06-07-20, 12:40
I never under stood the "defunding as punishment" for government agencies.
Here is my take on that; People get the Police force they want via the Politicians they vote for and the general hue and cry from the Citizens.
We have a neighbor web site, One recent gem was "My neighbor is shooting off Fireworks at 8:45 pm, Should I call the Cops?
People are jerks, but they don't want to be a jerk in person so they send the Cops over to "Fix you right up." They make the problem worse, by not stepping up themselves and asking politely, they rat you out anonymously and kind of hope you end up tazed and in the drunk tank.
Cops suck because People and Politicians suck.
Cops aren't writing the laws or calling the mayor over some measly thing or another. They've usually got enough to do without playing the ticket game around here.
But all it takes if one F'ed up Cop and we want to burn down the system?
But LE through their organizations do lobby for laws and/or exemptions for themselves. I recall the crock that is Lautenberg and the FOP lobbying for exemptions for their officers who had misdemeanor domestic violence convictions under their belts, but fully supported the unwashed peon masses getting screwed by it.
I don't think the issue is solely with police by any means. I think immunity and exemption needs to go away entirely. When one group has special privileges then rights don't matter to them. Judges constantly siding with infringements wouldn't happen if it was affecting them as an example.
As for the complaints, that could be rectified by putting the whiners skin in the game and that should go for private or public.
Yeah, I've been there. I've also lived for several months in middle-class Port-au-Prince, Haiti, where we actively had to protect citizens from police. They're shitholes, no doubt. That doesn't really help your case, though. The US was supposed to be the "city on a hill" the shining light of freedom and civil liberties, not "well, we're better than the worst places on Earth, so eh, good enough." Just because other places have it worse doesn't mean we shouldn't address the problems we do have.
You made my case. I have also been in Haiti, since I wanted to buy a farm on the other side of the island I went to Haiti to see for myself how bad it is.
I agree we need to address the problems we have, for that is one of the things that helps us be better.
I have no love for police officers that do not respect the Constitution and abuse by what ever means the American people. I also know that we have a small very small part of the American people that regardless of color are assholes that must be dealt with in a way that I would not support as being the way to handle all the people.
LMT Shooter
06-07-20, 13:09
......I also know that we have a small very small part of the American people that regardless of color are assholes that must be dealt with in a way that I would not support as being the way to handle all the people.
That is the crux of it, right there. And most folks are of two minds on this, they abhor the way some scumabags get treated, until they are the victim, then they're OK with an asshole getting the shit knocked outta them or shot.
LMT Shooter
06-07-20, 13:16
This all is classic liberal/leftist ignorance. You want better cops, so you take funding AWAY from them? Brilliant! We will certainly get better doctors if medical schools get less money, right?
I agree we need to address the problems we have, for that is one of the things that helps us be better.
I couldn't agree more.
That is the crux of it, right there. And most folks are of two minds on this, they abhor the way some scumabags get treated, until they are the victim, then they're OK with an asshole getting the shit knocked outta them or shot.
I hear things like that and occasionally hear victims say they want "someone" punished which seems to not necessarily mean only the perpetrator getting hammered will satisfy their need for revenge.
That's why I don't want the ditch all police thing because I don't want Bob and his cousin Doug see me drive past Bob's elderly Mother's house where they go in and find her dead prompting them to run me down and beat me to death prior to finding out she died of an aneurysm during the autopsy 2 days later. I want fair and impartial and in way too many areas historically, and currently, that isn't the case.
Another thing is, someone that gets beat to within an inch of their life(or all the way) in a police encounter isn't often the perp of the crime of the century. While any semblance of justice can't function this way, I could at least empathize with pounding a child molester in to the ground, but way too often the person getting beat did little to nothing beyond offending the officer(s) involved.
Ditto if/And actually prosecute criminals rather then letting them go !
When you see the guy who stole your car has been arrested 24 times for car theft kinda thing
We wouldn’t need the police nearly to the extent that we do if it wasn’t for enforcing stupid laws that shouldn’t exist.
I’ll all for cutting the numbers of laws in half and cutting down the police to match.
I’m 37 years old. In my experience the Police have not been there for me in my life. Robbed?, house broken into? No help, they take a half assed report, poke around and shrug thier shoulders. Other the one time when the officer told me he knew who the four individuals were, they were under 18 and there was nothing he could/would do.
Meanwhile I watch criminality around all the time. Drugs sold on street corners, Bums begging at every corner, graffiti all over the city. These are things I want stopped and they are not.
I have been pulled over and given speeding tickets plenty in my life. The most they have done is cost me money for speeding in zones that are outrageously low marked limits, almost like they want though to speed so they can ticket you.
So I can do with out the Police. I can especially do with out the militariazation of the police. Until I feel like police actually act in my best interest and make my world more enjoyable to be in I am certainly not a ‘back the blue’ type. To me cops are just people, and like people, some are good some are not. They work a job they picked, it was their choice, don’t like it? become a firefighter.
Oh, and don’t even get me started on the fact they get to ‘investigate themselves’ if you don’t think that little system is rife with room for abuse you’re not paying attention.
PracticalRifleman
06-07-20, 14:00
At least George Floyd won’t point a gun at another pregnant woman’s womb again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
06-07-20, 14:01
That is the crux of it, right there. And most folks are of two minds on this, they abhor the way some scumabags get treated, until they are the victim, then they're OK with an asshole getting the shit knocked outta them or shot.
Conversely, some people are fine with, "scumbags," being treated like shit until the suspicion falls on them and now they're the, "scumbag," being treated like shit. As the saying goes, a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged; A liberal is a conservative who has been arrested.
This all is classic liberal/leftist ignorance. You want better cops, so you take funding AWAY from them? Brilliant! We will certainly get better doctors if medical schools get less money, right?Yep. Guy o another firearms board is convinced that civil servants should be practically volunteering. Only then will you get those who really want to be cops. They should be paid very little and have a second job that actually pays their bills and everything else.
At least George Floyd won’t point a gun at another pregnant woman’s womb again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WHAT?
I actually agree, to a point, that more funds SHOULD be put towards social services that could take the burden off of the police. Cops are called to solve problems that usually require master's degrees to solve, and with only about 8 hours of crash course training. It didn't used to be that way. Other mobile crisis services did used to exist in many cities, but were disbanded due to budget. But because the problems didn't go away, the cities just made the cops, the only ones available, do it. With more specific services like that, you actually could reduce the size of PDs, as their call volumes would be greatly reduced.
Domestic disputes often involve violence. Mental health crisis's often involve violence. Don't think you would significantly reduce police resources, in many cases you would still have to have an officer(s) standing by.
Homeless persons often have mental health issues as well, although many social agencies deal with them without police presence as part of the normal routine.
As mentioned above, often these folks are off their meds, or are a person actually needing institutionalization.
I think increasing the social services safety net for these folks would be a start, but how many here are actually for that with the increased tax dollars it would likely cost?
Averageman
06-07-20, 14:19
But LE through their organizations do lobby for laws and/or exemptions for themselves. I recall the crock that is Lautenberg and the FOP lobbying for exemptions for their officers who had misdemeanor domestic violence convictions under their belts, but fully supported the unwashed peon masses getting screwed by it.
I don't think the issue is solely with police by any means. I think immunity and exemption needs to go away entirely. When one group has special privileges then rights don't matter to them. Judges constantly siding with infringements wouldn't happen if it was affecting them as an example.
As for the complaints, that could be rectified by putting the whiners skin in the game and that should go for private or public.
I would agree, if it is a law, it is the Law for everyone and they need to be very well thought out,
but instead we allow our elected representatives to farm the work out for these Bills to Special Interest groups to write for them. So, how is there not going to be some specific little porks and perks?
The game is rigged and to some degree no small part of it needs to fail in order for it to be fixed.
Here's my take, this game will continue to play out, but we've got two choices here because this violence and looting has to stop in order to have a viable economy, We either make peace with these people or we make war with them. It's that simple
There is not a lot of Logical, Adult minded middle ground that they are willing to give on this, so I don't think they understand what they are asking for if they push the limits.Compromise seems unlikely, but at this point you have to step forward and make the offer.
So, I see it going off the rails violent when the Adults cant sit down at the table together.
WHAT?
FLOYD-19 has quite the rap sheet
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At least George Floyd won’t point a gun at another pregnant woman’s womb again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That may be true, but the policeman acting as judge, jury, and executioner, deliberately or through indifference, was outside the legal system.
George would have dropped dead from living the thug/addict life by the end of the year anyway without making his daughter and baby-mama millionaires and we wouldn't have a bunch of idiots running around, destroying property, and killing cops over it.
Andy
WHAT?
Yea, the guy has been whitewashed AF!!! Have you seen the part of the arrest video where the baggie of dope fell out of his pocket? No. No you have not.
Doesn't matter what his rap sheet was.
Even the biggest scum bag, deserves to be taken into custody with the least amount of force possible.
PracticalRifleman
06-07-20, 15:22
Doesn't matter what his rap sheet was.
Even the biggest scum bag, deserves to be taken into custody with the least amount of force possible.
He didn’t deserve it. He didn’t deserve the air he’s been breathing the last five years. The system, the officers, and the public, however, deserve to be represented by the best of the best conducting themselves honorably.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Doesn't matter what his rap sheet was.
Even the biggest scum bag, deserves to be taken into custody with the least amount of force possible.
It does when someone is trying to hide it in order to further an agenda of destroying this country. Why are the FACTS not important?
It does when someone is trying to hide it in order to further an agenda of destroying this country. Why are the FACTS not important?
Facts are racist, obviously [emoji849]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Since the discussion about Floyd’s worthiness has been brought up.. I agree with this woman, Floyd was a POS, but did t deserve to die, and the cops will be brought to justice. But why elevate hi to this sainthood status. I mean, the guy held a gun to a pregnant woman’s belly during a home invasion...? WTF
https://youtu.be/Vj7D4-VLZlQ
I don’t believe anyone has full said Floyd deserved to be “murdered” at the hands of the police in some contorted judge dread scenario. If they do they are wrong.
But painting this guy and so many others as the second coming of neo-Jesus, black or otherwise, is purposefully revisionist and dishonest.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
titsonritz
06-07-20, 17:54
^^Agreed, Floyd may have had a history of being a piece of shit but he (nor anyone else) deserves to be treated as he was and maybe he was "just getting is life together" but don't put him up on the edification pedestal.
MountainRaven
06-07-20, 18:15
Welp...
Minneapolis City Council announces veto-proof push to disband police in George Floyd aftermath | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-city-council-disband-police-george-floyd)
I guess it's happening.
Of course, the further the pendulum swings in one direction, the further it will swing back. The prevailing thought would be "Democracy didn't work, anarchy didn't work...dictatorship maybe??"
At this point, if we are gonna boog...let's boog.
titsonritz
06-07-20, 18:26
Welp...
Minneapolis City Council announces veto-proof push to disband police in George Floyd aftermath | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-city-council-disband-police-george-floyd)
I guess it's happening.
I guess Minneapolis will be the first to burn to the ground, should be interesting.
At this point, if we are gonna boog...let's boog.
Yep, git 'er done. I'm not getting any younger.
sandsunsurf
06-07-20, 18:33
MountainRaven and/or fox beat me to it...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/protests-today-george-floyd-video.html
They don’t have a plan. My guess is the pledge will be forgotten about as they stall for months to “put a plan in place.” They will come up with some required training and policies and call that “the new public safety.”
However, if they follow through, and do it quickly, you can bet I’ll bust out the popcorn and be glued to the Minneapolis local news live streams... it will be a shiitake-show for sure!
BoringGuy45
06-07-20, 19:20
Welp...
Minneapolis City Council announces veto-proof push to disband police in George Floyd aftermath | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-city-council-disband-police-george-floyd)I guess it's happening.
It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them!
It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them!
The only unfortunate aspect I can see is that law abiding citizens will be the ones adversely affected by this move, but I am sure they will flee the city in droves. Other than that I say go for it, show the world what a PC, peace loving utopia looks like where the criminals and good folks walk down the street arm in arm. And, like that esteemed Minneapolis councilwoman said, don't call to report that someone broke into your garage.
I don’t believe anyone has full said Floyd deserved to be “murdered” at the hands of the police in some contorted judge dread scenario. If they do they are wrong.
But painting this guy and so many others as the second coming of neo-Jesus, black or otherwise, is purposefully revisionist and dishonest.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There seems to be a theme with martyring shitbirds that makes it kind of hard to have universal appeal.
BoringGuy45
06-07-20, 20:55
The problem is, assuming that they can, or would, actually disband MPD, all that's going to happen is that the county sheriff's department and MN State Patrol are going to be forced to take over policing Minneapolis. The idea that we'd ever have a truly unpoliced city in the U.S. is just not going to happen. That being said, if Minneapolis tries to do that, the sheriff needs to tell them to go f**k themselves.
The problem is, assuming that they can, or would, actually disband MPD, all that's going to happen is that the county sheriff's department and MN State Patrol are going to be forced to take over policing Minneapolis. The idea that we'd ever have a truly unpoliced city in the U.S. is just not going to happen. That being said, if Minneapolis tries to do that, the sheriff needs to tell them to go f**k themselves.
Yeah. I was thinking the feds might swoop in somehow also.
I don’t believe anyone has full said Floyd deserved to be “murdered” at the hands of the police in some contorted judge dread scenario. If they do they are wrong.
But painting this guy and so many others as the second coming of neo-Jesus, black or otherwise, is purposefully revisionist and dishonest.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I could understand Botham Jean or Tattiana Jefferson much easier.
The problem is, assuming that they can, or would, actually disband MPD, all that's going to happen is that the county sheriff's department and MN State Patrol are going to be forced to take over policing Minneapolis. The idea that we'd ever have a truly unpoliced city in the U.S. is just not going to happen. That being said, if Minneapolis tries to do that, the sheriff needs to tell them to go f**k themselves.
True and in all honesty they wouldn't bad the first. Several smaller towns have shut down their PD's over misconduct and started chipping in on the sheriff's office budget.
BoringGuy45
06-07-20, 22:16
True and in all honesty they wouldn't bad the first. Several smaller towns have shut down their PD's over misconduct and started chipping in on the sheriff's office budget.
It's pretty common for small towns to contract with county LE agencies for municipal police services for various reasons. In heavily populated counties with big sheriff's offices/county PDs, such as LA County or Miami-Dade, the county agency has enough officers/deputies to quickly take over policing in medium-to-large cities if the city decides to disband their PD. The thing is, in MN, I think the county government is a bit weaker, and the sheriff's offices are quite a bit smaller. While most could take over in a small town, I don't think even Hennepin County Sheriff's Office is large enough to provide policing for a city of nearly half a million people...especially in addition to the rest of the county.
Honestly, at this point, maybe Minneapolis will get their wish. They'll learn soon enough.
LA, NYC, Minneapolis, and other cities are considering defunding police. Here's what will happen, defund police, crime increases, property values fall (decreasing property taxes), taxes raised, crime continues to increase, businesses shut down, law abiding citizens leave, taxes collected continue to decrease due to businesses closing and wealthy people moving. Within 18 months the crime rate will go through the roof, reducing well paying job opportunity’s. They will need to hire a police force but will not have the taxable base to draw from. If you're in an area considering defunding police, sell your property and move while you still can. Good luck. Don’t be deceived by the people pushing this ****, by the fake news media, or by the extreme Democrat socialist Party, they are out to destroy our Country.
I’d bet my life, that the Mexican and South America drug cartels are keeping their fingers crossed on this. As it would be an alliance and marriage made in heaven for their bottom line. A militant all black police group made up of radical *Muslim*Louis Farrakhan disciples and Mexican and South American drug cartels. Of course all gun owners will have to turn in all your guns for this to work. Also you can bet your life that the leaders in ***there*** new type of community police force will be connected to Mexican and South American drug cartels, for super easy hard drug distribution in these cities.
Vote Trump and Republican in November!!!,
to keep *all* your firearms, your retirement money from being stolen through taxes, for a strong economy and jobs, and to keep a strong military to protect our Country from our enemies (China).
Welp...
Minneapolis City Council announces veto-proof push to disband police in George Floyd aftermath | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-city-council-disband-police-george-floyd)
I guess it's happening.
Not to worry, BLM is going to arm up a milita they can take up the slack.
BoringGuy45
06-07-20, 23:01
LA, NYC, Minneapolis, and other cities are considering defunding police. Here's what will happen, defund police, crime increases, property values fall (decreasing property taxes), taxes raised, crime continues to increase, businesses shut down, law abiding citizens leave, taxes collected continue to decrease due to businesses closing and wealthy people moving. Within 18 months the crime rate will go through the roof, reducing well paying job opportunity’s. They will need to hire a police force but will not have the taxable base to draw from. If you're in an area considering defunding police, sell your property and move while you still can. Good luck. Don’t be deceived by the people pushing this ****, by the fake news media, or by the extreme Democrat socialist Party, they are out to destroy our Country.
I’d bet my life, that the Mexican and South America drug cartels are keeping their fingers crossed on this. As it would be an alliance and marriage made in heaven for their bottom line. A militant all black police group made up of radical *Muslim*Louis Farrakhan disciples and Mexican and South American drug cartels. Of course all gun owners will have to turn in all your guns for this to work. Also you can bet your life that the leaders in ***there*** new type of community police force will be connected to Mexican and South American drug cartels, for super easy hard drug distribution in these cities.
Vote Trump and Republican in November!!!,
to keep *all* your firearms, your retirement money from being stolen through taxes, for a strong economy and jobs, and to keep a strong military to protect our Country from our enemies (China).
I don't think Trump's reelection going to be required for us to safely keep our firearms. Who is Biden going to send to take them now?
I don’t believe anyone has full said Floyd deserved to be “murdered” at the hands of the police in some contorted judge dread scenario. If they do they are wrong.
But painting this guy and so many others as the second coming of neo-Jesus, black or otherwise, is purposefully revisionist and dishonest.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep that's the whole picture.
But the big question is did the LEOs know that at the time? If they knew all that and were dealing with a known "dangerous individual" then they probably didn't ALL deserve to be let go.
But if "at the time" Floyd was just another "unknown subject" then they went to far. The fact that he was discovered to be a POS after the fact doesn't exonerate anyone. I'm glad to some extent they didn't accidentally / deliberately kill a guy through ignorance / shitty training who was nothing more than a **** up on drugs, but if all of that was random then it is just a matter of time before all those factors come together and kill somebody who is just a **** up on drugs.
Now I'm not here to champion people who are **** ups or on drugs, but it's not a capital offense.
The only unfortunate aspect I can see is that law abiding citizens will be the ones adversely affected by this move, but I am sure they will flee the city in droves. Other than that I say go for it, show the world what a PC, peace loving utopia looks like where the criminals and good folks walk down the street arm in arm. And, like that esteemed Minneapolis councilwoman said, don't call to report that someone broke into your garage.
Actually the law abiding folks will be the ones most locked in with jobs, family and responsibilities they take seriously. The scumbags are free to scurry about from state to state with no real ties. The innocent always suffer from the actions of those who deserve the consequences.
MountainRaven
06-08-20, 01:07
Not to worry, BLM is going to arm up a milita they can take up the slack.
People in the MSP area had already begun to arm up to patrol their own neighborhoods before this news was announced:
Citizen patrols organize across Minneapolis as confidence in the police force plummets - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/citizen-patrols-make-statement-in-minneapolis/2020/06/06/cc1844d4-a78c-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html)
I don't think Trump's reelection going to be required for us to safely keep our firearms. Who is Biden going to send to take them now?
Remember when Obama was running in’08 and he said that he wanted to create a civilian militant force that was larger and more powerful than the U.S. military? I don’t think the ComDems ever took that off the table, President Trump just threw a wrench in their plans by getting elected. And who do think will make up this Brown Shirt like force? BLM, Antifa and the criminals that are burning cities would be my guess.
I don't think Trump's reelection going to be required for us to safely keep our firearms. Who is Biden going to send to take them now?
Lol, they will empty the prisons just like they did in the Soviet Union. They will do anything and everything required......There is a blueprint for this sort of thing.
At this point if you gave these mobs a choice between white Jesus and not white Barabas, Jesus would be recrucified.
Go watch the Passion for the Pontius Pilate scene.
Vote Trump and Republican in November!!!,
to keep *all* your firearms,
*except for bump stocks, suppressors, anything that can be taken red flag laws (first, with due process later, of course) and anything else God-Emperor Trump decides he doesn't like at any given time.
But other than that, oh yeah, he'lll defend ALL your guns to the death!
Im okay with disbanding all police. No one to enforce illegal gun laws and no more speeding tickets!
Lol, they will empty the prisons just like they did in the Soviet Union. They will do anything and everything required......There is a blueprint for this sort of thing.
Think it is a coincidence that last month they were releasing prisoners to protect the poor souls from COVID and then this month those same cities are being looted and burned?
SomeOtherGuy
06-08-20, 09:08
People in the MSP area had already begun to arm up to patrol their own neighborhoods before this news was announced:
Citizen patrols organize across Minneapolis as confidence in the police force plummets - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/citizen-patrols-make-statement-in-minneapolis/2020/06/06/cc1844d4-a78c-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html)
Awesome, armed citizen patrols worked so well in Sanford Florida - no possibility of any use-of-force problems or controversy. None whatsoever!
BTW that article is incredibly fawning and pro-left. (Maybe stating the obvious.)
Seriously - while I have no issue with honest and responsible citizens patrolling their neighborhoods, that's not what this artificial crisis is going to result in. More like gangland x1000 with most gangs having political ties and platforms, and some them being deemed governmental actors by a portion of the state government, but not by all of it. Imagine how you would interact with local police in the most corrupt parts of Mexico and that is what is coming here.
The end goal of this clumsiest and dumbest of color revolutions is to topple legitimate US government at all levels and turn this country into a totally-corrupt, globally useless has-been like 90's Russia.
Imagine;
You’re an elderly couple that has lived in Minneapolis all your lives.
Retired, fixed income, never owned a gun, always voted Democrat, “Union folks”.
What would YOU be thinking about how this will work out?
Thugs?
GAME ON MOTHERF$(&ER!!!!
THE HORROR. The horror.
Diamondback
06-08-20, 09:31
An interesting quote from a Woodpile Report piece several years ago that another RedState member thought had relevance:
"Middle class America is no less violent than any other people. They seem passive because they're results oriented. They rise not out of blood frenzy but to solve the otherwise insoluble. Their methods of choice are good will, cooperation, forbearance, negotiation and finally, appeasement, roughly in that order. Only when these fail to end the abuse do they revert to blowback. And they do so irretrievably. Once the course is set and the outcome defined, doubt is put aside. The middle class is known, condemned actually, for carrying out violence with the efficiency of an industrial project where bloody destruction at any scale is not only in play, it's a metric. Remorse is left for the next generation, they'll have the leisure for it. We'd like to believe this is merely dark speculation. History says it isn't."
WWII being the textbook example here.
Diamondback
06-08-20, 09:31
doubletap
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 09:37
Awesome, armed citizen patrols worked so well in Sanford Florida - no possibility of any use-of-force problems or controversy. None whatsoever!
BTW that article is incredibly fawning and pro-left. (Maybe stating the obvious.)
Seriously - while I have no issue with honest and responsible citizens patrolling their neighborhoods, that's not what this artificial crisis is going to result in. More like gangland x1000 with most gangs having political ties and platforms, and some them being deemed governmental actors by a portion of the state government, but not by all of it. Imagine how you would interact with local police in the most corrupt parts of Mexico and that is what is coming here.
The end goal of this clumsiest and dumbest of color revolutions is to topple legitimate US government at all levels and turn this country into a totally-corrupt, globally useless has-been like 90's Russia.
The irony is this: they are acknowledging that society needs to have armed people patrolling the streets in order to keep communities safe and enforce the law. So right there, they’ve already rejected their own claim that police, in some form or another, are not in needed.
In all honesty, there could be some good that comes from this: 2020 has been dramatic proof that the 2nd is vital. Gun control is going to be VERY hard to push now. Biden is dumb enough to do it, but enforcement will be near impossible.
Though I stated hypothetically about how the importance of gun rights could bridge the gap between BLM and gun rights groups, I know that will never happen. But now that they, and other leftists want to take over for the police, they would have to be the ones to actually kick down doors and get them. They have to think long and hard about whether or not they want to do that, because they can’t just sit back and smirk as the police do it for them.
At what point does the Federal Government step in? Does it step in? Does it become a states rights issue? Does a state have the right to let a city this size destroy itself? How can any business function or obtain insurance in a security vacuum in the magnitude that they are trying to create? How can you insure your own personal property when the new process is to call your insurance company instead of the police when your car is being stolen or was stolen? How can you secure the airport? I am guessing MSP would have to turn into BIAP, T-walls included. Flying through there would be insanely expensive. How can the airlines even get fuel delivered without having to pay off the warlords or obtain significant security to deliver?
The amount of money we paid off Iraqis and Afghans to NOT destroy stuff is in the tens of Billions. Is this the goal?
Target
Best Buy
Delta
Wells Fargo
United Health Care
US Bank
General Mills
Cargill
3M
Hundreds of thousands of employees....
I don't know how many of them are laid off right now but with no police those companies are going to have to bail out hard and fast.
Does Edina just build a wall around the whole suburb?
The_War_Wagon
06-08-20, 09:48
At what point does the Federal Government step in? Does it step in? Does it become a states rights issue? Does a state have the right to let a city this size destroy itself?
When your guvner is as much an idiot as the mayors of his cities (PA being another PERFECT example), you're asking the dumb, to save the clueless, and results will be predictable. :fie:
From a risk/cost perspective their insurance rates should be spiraling into territory never before seen right now. No way insurance companies are going to accept this kind of risk without incredible costs. The state of Minnesota is not going to have enough money to insure every piece of property in Minneapolis in the absence of free market options. No insurance company could survive the risk. Share holders plus the companies that insure the insurers won't sign off on this kind of experiment.
SomeOtherGuy
06-08-20, 10:12
At what point does the Federal Government step in? Does it step in? Does it become a states rights issue? Does a state have the right to let a city this size destroy itself? How can any business function or obtain insurance in a security vacuum in the magnitude that they are trying to create? How can you insure your own personal property when the new process is to call your insurance company instead of the police when your car is being stolen or was stolen? How can you secure the airport?
OK, settle down. Minneapolis eliminating its police department doesn't eliminate (1) Hennepin County Sheriffs Dept or (2) Minnesota State Patrol, which is primarily a highway patrol but has broader powers.
In Michigan, the City of Flint at one time had single digits of police officers per shift, due to lack of funds. The sheriff and state police stepped up patrols to help compensate. It's not enough and not perfect, but there wasn't a complete absence of law enforcement. In some areas around the US there is no city police force, but the sheriff's dept covers the urban needs and is sized accordingly.
So this becomes an issue of MN county and state politics, both of which are far more "purple" than the left-dominated city of Minneapolis. Not a good result but not instant anarchy either. The worst possible result, however, is if the rioters and their ilk get some sort of legal LE status from the city, in which case you will have different police agencies fighting each other.
I don't know what will happen concerning insurance, but don't be surprised that the insurance companies get woke too and burn money and their stockholders to prove they're with the "people".
OK, settle down. Minneapolis eliminating its police department doesn't eliminate (1) Hennepin County Sheriffs Dept or (2) Minnesota State Patrol, which is primarily a highway patrol but has broader powers.
In Michigan, the City of Flint at one time had single digits of police officers per shift, due to lack of funds. The sheriff and state police stepped up patrols to help compensate. It's not enough and not perfect, but there wasn't a complete absence of law enforcement. In some areas around the US there is no city police force, but the sheriff's dept covers the urban needs and is sized accordingly.
So this becomes an issue of MN county and state politics, both of which are far more "purple" than the left-dominated city of Minneapolis. Not a good result but not instant anarchy either. The worst possible result, however, is if the rioters and their ilk get some sort of legal LE status from the city, in which case you will have different police agencies fighting each other.
Yeah, but will those agencies bother to perform because they are despised now? When you're hated by so many it may make putting your life on the line less than desirable.
SomeOtherGuy
06-08-20, 10:22
From a risk/cost perspective their insurance rates should be spiraling into territory never before seen right now. No way insurance companies are going to accept this kind of risk without incredible costs.
You can bet on this, HOWEVER remember that insurance premium rates are highly regulated in all states, including MN. Companies will have to file their rate increases, and then anticipate a legal battle with the state insurance department, which is subject to political pressure. It's more likely that you will see this done stealthily, or see companies simply drop all business in the state, rather than try a head-on battle.
The state of Minnesota is not going to have enough money to insure every piece of property in Minneapolis in the absence of free market options.
No, but expect political pressure to force insurance companies to cross-subsidize the big leftist city at the expense of the rest of the state. Remember that ALL health insurance is a cross-subsidy of the uninsured and Medicaid-covered populations (Medicaid pays less than actual cost to providers). And in many states, including Michigan, auto insurance is also a cross-subsidy as companies can't charge enough for big cities to cover losses, but are forced to make up the money elsewhere by overcharging safe drivers in safe areas. Even with this cross-subsidy, Detroit auto insurance rates are very high, so many drivers are uninsured despite it being a legal requirement to be insured. Detroit politicians regularly introduce bills that would require insurers to simply charge the same rate for a crazy-high-risk car in Detroit as for a low-risk car in rural farm country.
Many big cities, especially in the midwest, are near state borders and you can commute from another state to your job in the big city if need be. I wonder if the Wisconsin side of the St. Croix River is about to see a big increase in growth.
No insurance company could survive the risk. Share holders plus the companies that insure the insurers won't sign off on this kind of experiment.
Most insurance companies are very politically aware, and are likely to do what's viewed as necessary politically, even if not entirely sound underwriting. Shareholders don't have as much control as you seem to think, or as they in theory should have.
Summary: expect the situation in Minnesota to get worse and stay that way for a long time.
I don't think insurance companies, at least the big ones, will ever be that "woke". I've worked in that industry and I've had to deal with that industry from a significant loss stand point. Money is absolutely their number one concern and they will fight for it like that last piece of bread from the UN food relief truck.
From shareholder perspective I meant the large, institutional organisms that live and die by algorithms. There is no emotion in that process, only cost and risk models. As soon as anything goes outside a set of parameters it gets dumped.
I would expect to see something a long the lines of what happened to the Gulf states with private insurers completely dumping the home owners market for anything close to a coastal area and in some cases just abandoning the entire state.
SomeOtherGuy
06-08-20, 10:24
Yeah, but will those agencies bother to perform because they are despised now? When you're hated by so many it may make putting your life on the line less than desirable.
Absolutely. I expect the Twin Cities to have a long-term crime wave after this, and an area that was supposedly one of the best major metros in the USA will soon be viewed like Baltimore and St. Louis. I'm only saying that it won't be complete anarchy - more like those cities or Detroit.
Armed neighborhood groups forming in MN now, and hopefully does not go FUBAR. It does appear they're coordinating with LE and such, so that's a plus:
Citizen patrols organize across Minneapolis as confidence in the police force plummets
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/citizen-patrols-make-statement-in-minneapolis/2020/06/06/cc1844d4-a78c-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html?fbclid=IwAR1pGhY6xvqiRMvnDAjH5tG3vGRuP_sI2mjj57NHdLeggh7PflQhgELA7L4
There are some really nice suburbs. People with a lot to lose from this situation. I love snowmobiling in Minnesota--good people. I'm not sure if the "crash the system" types understand or care that there are so many dominoes in play. From a risk perspective, I don't know how any company can do business in Minneapolis at the moment. Inventory is at risk. How can any auto manufacturer or dealer keep cars on a lot when the new concept of operation is to break into the dealership and steal them all without repercussion? Security of your employees is at risk. Even showing up for work carries enough liability from COVID, now can you get sued because you needed your people to show up but they were mugged or killed enroute?
I haven't read what a business insurance policy looks like in Minnesota but in Iowa there were enough loop holes to make me very concerned about my own inventory in a very low risk area. Having a lot full of BMWs would be recipe for absolute disaster.
There were tweets from some of these city council members staff implying that property crime is not the problem, people reporting the property crime is the problem.
https://twitter.com/lisabendermpls?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1268282408102580226&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpatch.com%2Fminnesota%2Fminneapolis%2Ftalk-disbanding-police-rises-among-minneapolis-council-members
June 3 tweet
Lisa Bender
@lisabendermpls
·
Jun 3
If you are a comfortable white person asking to dismantle the police I invite you to reflect: are you willing to stick with it? Will you be calling in three months to ask about garage break-ins? Are you willing to dismantle white supremacy in all systems, including a new system?
That is literally as leftist as it gets...
Right wing militias...Truth? What is truth?
polydeuces
06-08-20, 10:48
Outstanding thread. Well articulated arguments from all pov.
My big thing is-what exactly does one intend to achieve with this ‘defund’ mantra? Is it an actual thought out concept, or just another massproduced slogan that sounds good?
I really would like those that scream it so loudly to please explain to me in great detail what and how. For i have this darkbrown suspicion no one can and has..(but i could wrong, of course)..until then its a bit murky (and im being generous) and hard to form an opinion.
OK, settle down. Minneapolis eliminating its police department doesn't eliminate (1) Hennepin County Sheriffs Dept or (2) Minnesota State Patrol, which is primarily a highway patrol but has broader powers.
.
According to the Interwebs, the State Patrol association has 527 officers, The Hennepin County Sheriffs associations says they have 270 deputies, the the current Minneapolis PD has 850 officers. Those numbers don't look so good. I'd be interested in seeing the call volumes each agency does. I'd also be interested in how long it takes for them to on board new officers and increase their support infrastructure.
I know I'm beating on a dead horse with the insurance thing, but overall I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Using credit scoring as an example, they have models of spend and payment behavior to account for scoring. Those models are based on huge data sets and are proven out over time to keep value in that modeling. When you have a significant black swan event, such as, entire city says F the police--there are literally thousands if not millions of data points that suddenly disappear because the basis on which they are built became a zero/unknown value. Everything from insurance to even buying a car is in many ways also tied to your zip code from a modeling perspective. If your zip code suddenly becomes "escape from New York", the existing US based models can't process or analyze how you now fit into this overall picture. Essentially, you just have to throw out all existing processes and start over. There is existing data to correlate what the new system would like like. Bogota, Juarez, Abuja, etc. You don't make car payments in those cities, you don't own property on credit in those cities--everything is cash and arms length followed by its entirely your problem once you own it.
On a side note, you don't fly into Bogota or Abuja with a checked Rimowa or Tumi bag, unless you don't really like your bag or you're on a private jet. You can barely fly into CDG and take the local to Paris without a problem...
This is going to be...........awesome!
I’m sorry people of Minnesota but this is the one time I’m really hoping things just go off the rails.
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 11:41
At what point does the Federal Government step in? Does it step in? Does it become a states rights issue? Does a state have the right to let a city this size destroy itself? How can any business function or obtain insurance in a security vacuum in the magnitude that they are trying to create? How can you insure your own personal property when the new process is to call your insurance company instead of the police when your car is being stolen or was stolen? How can you secure the airport? I am guessing MSP would have to turn into BIAP, T-walls included. Flying through there would be insanely expensive. How can the airlines even get fuel delivered without having to pay off the warlords or obtain significant security to deliver?
The amount of money we paid off Iraqis and Afghans to NOT destroy stuff is in the tens of Billions. Is this the goal?
Target
Best Buy
Delta
Wells Fargo
United Health Care
US Bank
General Mills
Cargill
3M
Hundreds of thousands of employees....
I don't know how many of them are laid off right now but with no police those companies are going to have to bail out hard and fast.
Does Edina just build a wall around the whole suburb?
I'd say to all outside governments: DON'T step in. These idiots won't listen; it's time they learn the hard way. Keep the chaos contained; don't save Minneapolis until they beg for it.
Its going to be a leftist hellscape. What's sad is business owners are sitting outside their stores with guns, won't be long before they are shot or murdered by criminals for those guns. This has played out many times in many places. I guess we get to do it again, but in the US. New reality TV show, gangs of Minneapolis. Don't get off the interstate.... You will honestly have to know which gang controls which exit to get off, if you just blindly wander through it's going to be a new experience.
SomeOtherGuy
06-08-20, 11:50
I'd say to all outside governments: DON'T step in. These idiots won't listen; it's time they learn the hard way. Keep the chaos contained; don't save Minneapolis until they beg for it.
Detroit was treated somewhat like this, and it's not exactly a success story for anyone involved.
I'm all for giving the rioters exactly what they deserve. But a majority of Minneapolis didn't riot and isn't involved. Are you saying that the law-abiding, career-working people in other parts of Minneapolis should lose 95% of the value in their house because of the actions of idiots across the city and some really awful politicians? You want to abandon a couple hundred thousand decent people to their fate because of other people who happened to be in the same political subdivision?
FYI, Detroit was the "Paris of the Midwest" through the mid-1960's, considered much nicer than most other cities in the US at that time. An entire generation lost a huge chunk of their wealth following the 1967 riots and its political aftermath. Likewise Minneapolis was considered a prize city in the US up until a couple weeks ago. That changed in the blink of an eye.
I don't expect any happy ending here, but it's short-sighted to think that abandoning the whole thing is just to those who didn't riot. They are not all far-left types who produced this disaster. They may have been blind to the danger, but that doesn't make it their fault. (I have no relatives, friends, or investments in Minnesota, just in case anyone's wondering - but I have seen this play out before in Chicago and Detroit, where it did affect my extended family.)
Edina is going to need a 40ft wall patrolled 24/7 by ED209s
France Avenue and Interlachen/50th new DMZs. Team up with Minnetonka and Bloomington.
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 12:42
Detroit was treated somewhat like this, and it's not exactly a success story for anyone involved.
I'm all for giving the rioters exactly what they deserve. But a majority of Minneapolis didn't riot and isn't involved. Are you saying that the law-abiding, career-working people in other parts of Minneapolis should lose 95% of the value in their house because of the actions of idiots across the city and some really awful politicians? You want to abandon a couple hundred thousand decent people to their fate because of other people who happened to be in the same political subdivision?
FYI, Detroit was the "Paris of the Midwest" through the mid-1960's, considered much nicer than most other cities in the US at that time. An entire generation lost a huge chunk of their wealth following the 1967 riots and its political aftermath. Likewise Minneapolis was considered a prize city in the US up until a couple weeks ago. That changed in the blink of an eye.
I don't expect any happy ending here, but it's short-sighted to think that abandoning the whole thing is just to those who didn't riot. They are not all far-left types who produced this disaster. They may have been blind to the danger, but that doesn't make it their fault. (I have no relatives, friends, or investments in Minnesota, just in case anyone's wondering - but I have seen this play out before in Chicago and Detroit, where it did affect my extended family.)
I think at this point it's inevitable; even if the feds did intervene, if Trump loses in November, Biden would probably just pull them out. If Minneapolis' government is hellbent on this idiocy, it's going to happen. If the feds want to help, they need to assist in any way possible to help those who want to get out do so, and make sure they are able to stay afloat as they relocate. Let the nutjobs have their little social experiment.
The difference between Minneapolis and Detroit is that the temperature in the pot was set to low in Detroit. Not so much here.
Detroit was treated somewhat like this, and it's not exactly a success story for anyone involved.
I'm all for giving the rioters exactly what they deserve. But a majority of Minneapolis didn't riot and isn't involved. Are you saying that the law-abiding, career-working people in other parts of Minneapolis should lose 95% of the value in their house because of the actions of idiots across the city and some really awful politicians? You want to abandon a couple hundred thousand decent people to their fate because of other people who happened to be in the same political subdivision?
FYI, Detroit was the "Paris of the Midwest" through the mid-1960's, considered much nicer than most other cities in the US at that time. An entire generation lost a huge chunk of their wealth following the 1967 riots and its political aftermath. Likewise Minneapolis was considered a prize city in the US up until a couple weeks ago. That changed in the blink of an eye.
I don't expect any happy ending here, but it's short-sighted to think that abandoning the whole thing is just to those who didn't riot. They are not all far-left types who produced this disaster. They may have been blind to the danger, but that doesn't make it their fault. (I have no relatives, friends, or investments in Minnesota, just in case anyone's wondering - but I have seen this play out before in Chicago and Detroit, where it did affect my extended family.)
I hope it’s as bad as you think it’ll get. Maybe the portion of the country that hasn’t lost their ****ing mind will be able to look at that and what a disaster it is then use that as an example. I’m sorry that sucks for the people of Minneapolis. That also sucks for the people that didn’t vote in a pussy mayor and governor.Unfortunately they will have to learn the lesson the same as everybody else. I never thought I would say this but I’m honestly in the burn it all down stage.
You don’t want to police patrolling in your hood fine. Don’t call them or EMS when your son or daughter gets shot. You can use Chicago as an example of this. They should be able to help you get started fairly quickly.
Averageman
06-08-20, 13:08
I'm not exactly sure when Civil Disobedience turns in to Violent Insurrection, I don't have words for some of the shi+ I've seen lately.
But, I'm just going to say, this is looking very much like Violent Insurrection at this point to me.
This isn't one State and it couldn't have been done without cross talk between groups and organizations, with that and the destruction, violence and looting I would deploy Troops.
They are definitely trying to go all in
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-council-president-ducks-question-over-how-defund-police-push-would-affect-crime-victims
Mayor of LA called his police officers killers yesterday
SeriousStudent
06-08-20, 14:19
In the words of Dan Ackroyd: "Maintain low tones."
I just cleaned up some posts. Let's remain calm, shall we? That includes not baiting others.
Outstanding thread. Well articulated arguments from all pov.
My big thing is-what exactly does one intend to achieve with this ‘defund’ mantra? Is it an actual thought out concept, or just another massproduced slogan that sounds good?
I really would like those that scream it so loudly to please explain to me in great detail what and how. For i have this darkbrown suspicion no one can and has..(but i could wrong, of course)..until then its a bit murky (and im being generous) and hard to form an opinion.
The BLM folks, and I’m not talking people that believe black lives matter, but the “organization”, is just antifa, in a different suit. They want to burn it all down. They are militant and have targeted every positive effort by police to make meaningful changes. They dont want police at the table. They want police gone. But they’re short sighted or just self serving criminals. They stand to benefit from the lack of police.
I’m not a conspiracy nut, but the more I think about it, BLM is funded by Soros, and I’m thinking they were just waiting for the next incident to spring into action... their response was too well orchestrated. And the lemmings are falling into line better than they could have ever dreamed of... this is scary folks... when we have mayors calling their cops “killers” and other agencies and cities are bending knees to the BLM organization (not just the idea), they’ve won. We can’t stand up to them without being labeled racist, and risk rioting. We are running scared.
LA, NYC and Minneapolis
surprised DC, Austin, Seattle, San Francisco, and Portland aren't on the list... yet...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/defund-police-george-floyd-protest-reforms-new-york-los-angeles-minneapolis
Most cities do not want the State Police to patrol their streets, because they have no control over them. If someone complains to the city council about a search warrant or arrest, there is nothing they can do about it.
Some small towns in our area contract with Sheriff's departments to patrol, but it can get real expensive if it requires more than one or two officers. The town council still has limited influence.
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 15:58
LA, NYC and Minneapolis
surprised DC, Austin, Seattle, San Francisco, and Portland aren't on the list... yet...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/defund-police-george-floyd-protest-reforms-new-york-los-angeles-minneapolis
SF and Portland will likely top them all. They'll probably give Antifa/BLM official, legal police powers, suspend all constitutional rights, and give the militias the authority to shoot on sight anyone they wish without consequences. I'm not even kidding.
The BLM folks, and I’m not talking people that believe black lives matter, but the “organization”, is just antifa, in a different suit. They want to burn it all down. They are militant and have targeted every positive effort by police to make meaningful changes. They dont want police at the table. They want police gone. But they’re short sighted or just self serving criminals. They stand to benefit from the lack of police.
I’m not a conspiracy nut, but the more I think about it, BLM is funded by Soros, and I’m thinking they were just waiting for the next incident to spring into action... their response was too well orchestrated. And the lemmings are falling into line better than they could have ever dreamed of... this is scary folks... when we have mayors calling their cops “killers” and other agencies and cities are bending knees to the BLM organization (not just the idea), they’ve won. We can’t stand up to them without being labeled racist, and risk rioting. We are running scared.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200608/9dcf66d0ba876e811103dc6a9550fde9.jpg
Lemmings is an understatement
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To your ties comment
Also unlimited funding by soros/Clinton so ammo or weapons will be paid for and provided if this goes further south
as to create well armed blm controlled forces including vehicles and armor vehicles body armor etc.... as Obama said about as well armed as the military or something like that ! That seems to be closer to end goal
Counterpoint would be the other side getting hold of that supplied stuff ?
besides a few antifa folks most on the right not sure how they will handle death and mayhem ? Will they fear it or embrace it
Either way this is happening quicker then I thought and hope it calms down ?
Awesome, armed citizen patrols worked so well in Sanford Florida - no possibility of any use-of-force problems or controversy. None whatsoever!
BTW that article is incredibly fawning and pro-left. (Maybe stating the obvious.)
Seriously - while I have no issue with honest and responsible citizens patrolling their neighborhoods, that's not what this artificial crisis is going to result in. More like gangland x1000 with most gangs having political ties and platforms, and some them being deemed governmental actors by a portion of the state government, but not by all of it. Imagine how you would interact with local police in the most corrupt parts of Mexico and that is what is coming here.
The end goal of this clumsiest and dumbest of color revolutions is to topple legitimate US government at all levels and turn this country into a totally-corrupt, globally useless has-been like 90's Russia.
Most cities do not want the State Police to patrol their streets, because they have no control over them. If someone complains to the city council about a search warrant or arrest, there is nothing they can do about it.
Some small towns in our area contract with Sheriff's departments to patrol, but it can get real expensive if it requires more than one or two officers. The town council still has limited influence.
While nothing is perfect, sheriff's offices have usually seemed to be a better route to me vs. city or state police.
Problems are sometimes dealt with faster with sheriff's, even the clinically dull know good/bad deputies work for the sheriff come election time versus not always the case with mayor/governors and police forces, and sheriff's tend to say "screw that" more often when bad ideas need enforcement as has been seen with anti 2nd Amendment laws in recent years.
Life's a Hillary
06-08-20, 16:57
Does anyone have any evidence of all the Soros talk? Genuine question because it seems like an easy boogeymen to pin everything on and while I’m sure there are some organized groups instigating things, I’d like to see more than just tin foil hats as a source.
polydeuces
06-08-20, 17:09
Putting the awesome power of the interweb at my disposal to work, googeling the crap out 'defunding the po-po', learning things are facepalm as expected.
No clear definition of concept, strategy - be it starting or exit - or anything otherwise well thought out is to be had.
Lotsa voices making the same noise, not a whole lot of real world common sense.
My main take-away is that many if not most of those screaming the loudest with the most radical proposals are also the ones most opposed to 2A rights. So then - who yer going to call...?
Which makes it somewhat amusing considering all (un)intended consequences. Karma will be merciless.
Well, if there is one thing I learned from all the looting, burning, destroying and assaulting going on in the last week is that we definitely need to disband the police.
https://www.mpd150.com/faq/
Here is their manifesto
Notice the goals are actually global....
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/
Clicking on some of these links will actually make you dumber. Sorry in advance!
They want Starbucks, BMWs and Dad to pay for it while they scream and complain. For others it’s the goal of destroying the system, Che Guevara level take down/shake down.
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 18:44
https://www.mpd150.com/faq/
Here is their manifesto
All I can say is this: They will learn, and learn quickly, if they were to, hypothetically, get what they want. Sometimes, people have to see things for themselves.
https://www.mpd150.com/faq/
Here is their manifesto
They’re going to feel pretty darn silly when a cartel member is cutting their head off For interrupting their
Fentanyl distribution. Or maybe that’ll be legal to.
Like I posted in another thread somewhere.. lets start and stop by defunding the BATF.
titsonritz
06-08-20, 19:17
A little more fuel to the fire. Apparently, the Minneapolis police are slashing protester's tires...
New video footage shows several police officers slashing car tires during Minneapolis protests without provocation.
In one clip, cops clad in military-style uniforms can be seen stabbing tires during a protest led near the state's I-35 West highway. But in a more puzzling turn, additional footage shows a parking lot full of slashed tires at the local Kmart.
Cont...
https://reason.com/2020/06/08/video-shows-cops-slashing-tires-across-minneapolis-during-george-floyd-protests/
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266987126467461120
Well they are domestic terrorists so
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, if there is one thing I learned from all the looting, burning, destroying and assaulting going on in the last week is that we definitely need to disband the police.
That’s just your privilege talking
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200609/54b9ba5e3178137447d63959749ef7ca.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That’s just your privilege talking
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200609/54b9ba5e3178137447d63959749ef7ca.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What does that mean?
Is that an answer? Or does she mean just let people have their way with you?
Is it only rape if you are not “privilaged?” Cause im having a difficult time interpreting that as something else.
What does that mean?
Is that an answer? Or does she mean just let people have their way with you?
Is it only rape if you are not “privilaged?” Cause im having a difficult time interpreting that as something else.
Her answer means "I am a grifter and an opportunist and I have no logical answer to your question" .
What does that mean?
Is that an answer? Or does she mean just let people have their way with you?
Is it only rape if you are not “privilaged?” Cause im having a difficult time interpreting that as something else.
Sounds like that lawful rape guy
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So..
Since we're basically knocking on the door of a societal collapse now..
And we're mostly on our own, apparently..
Can I finally have my belt-fed now, or are we still doing the whole draconian gun laws thing?
(Please say we get belt-feds now).
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
HardToHandle
06-08-20, 20:00
A little more fuel to the fire. Apparently, the Minneapolis police are slashing protester's tires...
New video footage shows several police officers slashing car tires during Minneapolis protests without provocation.
In one clip, cops clad in military-style uniforms can be seen stabbing tires during a protest led near the state's I-35 West highway. But in a more puzzling turn, additional footage shows a parking lot full of slashed tires at the local Kmart.
Cont...
https://reason.com/2020/06/08/video-shows-cops-slashing-tires-across-minneapolis-during-george-floyd-protests/
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1266987126467461120
From the local paper, which is no friend of law enforcement...
“ State Patrol troopers strategically deflated tires … in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement," Gordon said.
Gordon said the patrol also targeted vehicles "that contained items used to cause harm during violent protests" such as rocks, concrete and sticks. https://www.startribune.com/officers-slashed-tires-on-vehicles-parked-during-mpls-protests-unrest/571105692/
I was listening to the scanner traffic that night and the Kmart parking lot was a clearly contested space. There were cars exiting into the police skirmish lines from the parking lot, so clearly a threat to officers and the general public. Being familiar with the area in question, no heartburn from me as explained.
Colion nails it again.
https://youtu.be/3Urm2rsGT70
What does that mean?
Is that an answer? Or does she mean just let people have their way with you?
Is it only rape if you are not “privilaged?” Cause im having a difficult time interpreting that as something else.
It means "shut up you white racist, I don't need to answer racist question from racists."
https://www.mpd150.com/faq/
Here is their manifesto
What happens when one of their "healers", whatever that is, gets smoked by the local drug lord? Do they send more healers in?
It means "shut up you white racist, I don't need to answer racist question from racists."
It’s pretty brilliant really. I mean they’ve shut down any dialogue, fully escaped any accountability, and making the opposition feel guilty for it simply by calling people racists.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Averageman
06-08-20, 20:20
That’s just your privilege talking
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200609/54b9ba5e3178137447d63959749ef7ca.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wait is this the "Student Counsel" or the "City Counsel"?
'Cause if this is some 8th Graders....
It’s pretty brilliant really. I mean they’ve shut down any dialogue, fully escaped any accountability, and making the opposition feel guilty for it simply by calling people racists.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They got them right where they want them. You're a racist if you're white, you're a racist if you agree with me and kiss my butt and grovel before me, you're a racist if you don't agree 100% with me. There's no way out for these people.
From looking at the twitter and other open source sites—the Minneapolis “leaders”, are very much Marxist/redistribution of wealth types. They see this as the path to their end goals as statists.
From looking at the twitter and other open source sites—the Minneapolis “leaders”, are very much Marxist/redistribution of wealth types. They see this as the path to their end goals as statists.
Minneapolis is about to get what they wanted...good and hard.
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 21:18
They got them right where they want them. You're a racist if you're white, you're a racist if you agree with me and kiss my butt and grovel before me, you're a racist if you don't agree 100% with me. There's no way out for these people.
Who and what we are can never be fixed or made suitable to live among the new society, and thus we must be eliminated.
Who and what we are can never be fixed or made suitable to live among the new society, and thus we must be eliminated.
Hopefully I'll last long enough to at least live a month or two in Idaho before they get me.
BoringGuy45
06-08-20, 22:36
Hopefully I'll last long enough to at least live a month or two in Idaho before they get me.
Or hopefully refresh the liberty tree and either live to see the nation renewed, or go down trying.
Or hopefully refresh the liberty tree and either live to see the nation renewed, or go down trying.
Yeah, I don't think I would allow them to make spectacle of me, if out numbered.
I was downtown LA today about 4 pm. I could see a huge demonstration about 3 blocks away looking west on 5th street...I felt pretty uneasy.
How fast the narrative shifted from "Only the police and military should have guns" to "There should be no police, you racist". I can't even keep up with the idiocy anymore.
How the twilight zone clown world we live in continues to grow more and more insane by the day is beyond me.
I feel the divide is to the point that there is no going back. One side is going to "win" so to speak and brutally destroy the way of life the other side wants and holds dear.
We've been here before in our history, we will be here again in our future.
It's so sad the lessons and hard truths learned through ashes, tears and blood are so short lived and fleeting.
We are currently in a civil war. Not many bullets are flying right now, but a civil war it is nonetheless.
Straight Shooter
06-09-20, 01:21
How fast the narrative shifted from "Only the police and military should have guns" to "There should be no police, you racist". I can't even keep up with the idiocy anymore.
How the twilight zone clown world we live in continues to grow more and more insane by the day is beyond me.
I feel the divide is to the point that there is no going back. One side is going to "win" so to speak and brutally destroy the way of life the other side wants and holds dear.
We've been here before in our history, we will be here again in our future.
It's so sad the lessons and hard truths learned through ashes, tears and blood are so short lived and fleeting.
We are currently in a civil war. Not many bullets are flying right now, but a civil war it is nonetheless.
Youre damned right we are in a civil war. And a cultural war..AND a religious war..but just on Jews & Christians, btw.
Its TIME to sort this out. To end 50 years of putting up with the gradual degradation of our Constitution & the traditional American way of life.
To restore law, order, borders, religious freedom, 2A rights of course, and set the media straight- PUNISH is a word Ill use- for the decades worth of lies & propaganda theyve spewed while hiding behind the 1st amendment. It is time to remedy this.
The leftists & demonrats & media are together on this, united. WHY ARENT WE?
All this shit going on now, is simply being allowed to happen because the massive overwhelming amount of us law abiding gun owners havent gotten up yet, and said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
When bodies start getting stacked, and media held responsible thru various means & measures, this shit will stop.
I myself, do not know what to do, or how to unite us. Itll take men of known stature & patriots to get the ball rolling on this, all the while knowing what we will be branded..white supremacists, terrorists, racists, KKK, radical right wingers, ect, ect. Theyll probably INVENT new words to call us. IF patriots dont do something & soon, and I mean this year especially if Trump loses in November...come 2021 we gonna have a new Amerika, and it aint gonna be so grand.
That’s just your privilege talking
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200609/54b9ba5e3178137447d63959749ef7ca.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With no police, I would just call the coroner.
Andy
Minneapolis is about to get what they wanted...good and hard.
Without lube, and then they'll find some way to blame it on Trump.
Like I posted in another thread somewhere.. lets start and stop by defunding the BATF.
Sounds good. Throw the FBI in there as well, to keep them from being used to support the ATF, again.
How fast the narrative shifted from "Only the police and military should have guns" to "There should be no police, you racist". I can't even keep up with the idiocy anymore.
Meanwhile the Right went from arguing that "If someone breaks into your house, by the time the police get there it'll just be to load your body into a body bag" to "but who will respond when someone breaks in at 2am? WE NEED THE POLICE!" The idiocy is staggering on both sides of this issue.
With no police, I would just call the coroner.
Andy
Sounds good to me, and the way it should be.
Youre damned right we are in a civil war. And a cultural war..AND a religious war..but just on Jews & Christians, btw.
Its TIME to sort this out. To end 50 years of putting up with the gradual degradation of our Constitution & the traditional American way of life.
To restore law, order, borders, religious freedom, 2A rights of course, and set the media straight- PUNISH is a word Ill use- for the decades worth of lies & propaganda theyve spewed while hiding behind the 1st amendment. It is time to remedy this.
The leftists & demonrats & media are together on this, united. WHY ARENT WE?
All this shit going on now, is simply being allowed to happen because the massive overwhelming amount of us law abiding gun owners havent gotten up yet, and said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
When bodies start getting stacked, and media held responsible thru various means & measures, this shit will stop.
I myself, do know what to do, or how to unite us. Itll take men of known stature & patriots to get the ball rolling on this, all the while knowing what we will be branded..white supremacists, terrorists, racists, KKK, radical right wingers, ect, ect. Theyll probably INVENT new words to call us. IF patriots dont do something & soon, and I mean this year especially if Trump loses in November...come 2021 we gonna have a new Amerika, and it aint gonna be so grand.
I've said this literally for decades --- and have been mocked for it by many who refused to see and process the obvious signs. This is simply a cycle of history, we aren't special, it's nothing new- nations and empires have fallen, peoples have been purged throughout known history. Most people are simply willfully ignorant- it has been incredibly irritating to deal with them quite honestly. I'm glad that more people are waking up but I'm afraid it's probably too late.
BoringGuy45
06-09-20, 10:21
Meanwhile the Right went from arguing that "If someone breaks into your house, by the time the police get there it'll just be to load your body into a body bag" to "but who will respond when someone breaks in at 2am? WE NEED THE POLICE!" The idiocy is staggering on both sides of this issue.
There's no contradiction between people defending themselves and also recognizing the need for law enforcement.
grizzlyblake
06-09-20, 10:36
Youre damned right we are in a civil war. And a cultural war..AND a religious war..but just on Jews & Christians, btw.
Its TIME to sort this out. To end 50 years of putting up with the gradual degradation of our Constitution & the traditional American way of life.
To restore law, order, borders, religious freedom, 2A rights of course, and set the media straight- PUNISH is a word Ill use- for the decades worth of lies & propaganda theyve spewed while hiding behind the 1st amendment. It is time to remedy this.
The leftists & demonrats & media are together on this, united. WHY ARENT WE?
All this shit going on now, is simply being allowed to happen because the massive overwhelming amount of us law abiding gun owners havent gotten up yet, and said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
When bodies start getting stacked, and media held responsible thru various means & measures, this shit will stop.
I myself, do know what to do, or how to unite us. Itll take men of known stature & patriots to get the ball rolling on this, all the while knowing what we will be branded..white supremacists, terrorists, racists, KKK, radical right wingers, ect, ect. Theyll probably INVENT new words to call us. IF patriots dont do something & soon, and I mean this year especially if Trump loses in November...come 2021 we gonna have a new Amerika, and it aint gonna be so grand.
The radical left (rioters) are mostly unemployed now and getting a very healthy unemployment check from the government so they are free to do whatever they please with all their free time.
Unfortunately, the conservative right is still trying to inch the economy along and keep their businesses going. Until there is no more economy to work for, no work to show up to do, etc. the conservative right will continue to focus on all attempts to keep cash flow moving in order to pay bills and support a comfortable lifestyle.
There is still a long way down the toilet to go before the people on the right get to the same point of "nothing to lose" that the radical left is currently operating on. In reality the radical left had very little to lose to begin with, while the conservative right has everything to lose by doing the things you outline.
Just to berate the point, Johnnie Anarchist can go riot in the streets, loot, etc. and go home to his apartment shared with his buddies and comfortably make the rent with their combined unemployment checks. Even when those run out that can continue if they all go get jobs working as hourly waitstaff, warehouse labor, etc. where their employment/livelihood is completely separate from their extra curricular activities.
Billy Accountant cannot even share his true opinions on Facebook without jeopardizing his career, losing the ability to make his mortgage and car payments, and support his wife and two kids. We are nowhere near a point where that guy can grab his AR and commence to "stacking bodies" as you put it.
Diamondback
06-09-20, 10:54
A bit from an opinion piece by a retired infantry colonel this morning that seems relevant:
"Compromise is fine when both sides have the same objectives but differ on techniques to achieve them. When one side’s objective is the absolute destruction of the other, then there can be no compromise.
When an American is confronted by a robber who declares, “I’m going to kill you and your family and steal all your money,” an American doesn’t look for ways to “reach across the aisle” in compromise. He doesn’t counter-offer by saying, “How about you just kill one of my kids and take maybe half my money.” No—An American pulls out his piece and puts two in the Ten Ring. Done. No compromise."
https://www.redstate.com/darth641/2020/06/09/opinion-we-didn%e2%80%99t-hire-donald-trump-to-be-a-uniter/
There's no contradiction between people defending themselves and also recognizing the need for law enforcement.
Definitely this. Someone has to do the paperwork and I damned sure don't want to do it!
In a more abstract sense having a national conversation about what the role of police and policing should be isn’t necessarily a bad thing. On a local level anyways.
In so many communities expecting LEOs to play social workers with guns is a net loss for everyone involved.
But nothing constructive will come of any of this anyway so it’s moot.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Whiskey_Bravo
06-09-20, 13:02
Meanwhile the Right went from arguing that "If someone breaks into your house, by the time the police get there it'll just be to load your body into a body bag" to "but who will respond when someone breaks in at 2am? WE NEED THE POLICE!" The idiocy is staggering on both sides of this issue.
I am not sure this has the contradiction in it that you seem to think it does. If someone breaks into my house at 2am there is a high chance I will shoot them . I still think it's necessary to be able to call the local law enforcement after the fact.
I have been working basically 16 hour days, so I came and saw this thread. Sometimes when I don't get in on the start of a thread I like to start at the back of the thread.
I made it to page 15, I read some great posts 1 or 2 , but read enough bad posts to have no desire to read more.
Ask yourself the following, is my house surrounded by a 12 foot high wall topped by broken glass and razor wire? Then every window and your porch sealed closed with steel bars?
You think you at home can by yourself handle a armed gang of 5 to 10 armed guys invading your home. With your family thrown into the mix?
627886278862788
The police are necessary.
The radical left (rioters) are mostly unemployed now and getting a very healthy unemployment check from the government so they are free to do whatever they please with all their free time.
Unfortunately, the conservative right is still trying to inch the economy along and keep their businesses going. Until there is no more economy to work for, no work to show up to do, etc. the conservative right will continue to focus on all attempts to keep cash flow moving in order to pay bills and support a comfortable lifestyle.
There is still a long way down the toilet to go before the people on the right get to the same point of "nothing to lose" that the radical left is currently operating on. In reality the radical left had very little to lose to begin with, while the conservative right has everything to lose by doing the things you outline.
Just to berate the point, Johnnie Anarchist can go riot in the streets, loot, etc. and go home to his apartment shared with his buddies and comfortably make the rent with their combined unemployment checks. Even when those run out that can continue if they all go get jobs working as hourly waitstaff, warehouse labor, etc. where their employment/livelihood is completely separate from their extra curricular activities.
Billy Accountant cannot even share his true opinions on Facebook without jeopardizing his career, losing the ability to make his mortgage and car payments, and support his wife and two kids. We are nowhere near a point where that guy can grab his AR and commence to "stacking bodies" as you put it.
This is unfortunately the absolute truth. I guarantee I would have serious employment issues if I dared imply GF was a drug addled thug on Facebook, I am sure. Of course, I don't have a Facebook account, so that helps.
Andy
There's no contradiction between people defending themselves and also recognizing the need for law enforcement.
I am with Alpha-17. The armed private citizen isn't much of an interest and it is an interesting position to hold considering the zeal displayed in many areas over covid enforcement.
What a fake equivalence.
I believe in protecting my family. That doesn't mean I have to believe those who are unable or unwilling deserve no protection.
Coal Dragger
06-09-20, 15:20
The vast majority of our problems with policing in this country, and for that matter a lot of our criminal activity problems stem from recreational drugs being illegal, and the “war on drugs”. Prohibition doesn’t work and enforcement of prohibition on drugs, just like alcohol in the 20’s and 30’s causes more trouble than it stops.
Want to reduce no knock warrants and the idiotic results obtained by police in rare instances? Legalize drugs, most no knocks are drug related warrants as far as I know.
Want to reduce criminal violence significantly in this country, and along with it the need for LEO agencies to need para-military units to deal with that violence? Legalize drugs, by ending the need for an illegal supply chain and distribution people who sell drugs no longer have to take matters into their own hands to resolve business disputes with wars between various drug supply chain factions.
Want to stop frequent negative interactions with police and minority communities, where the police often use drug possession or distribution as a reason to initiate contact? Legalize drugs, amazing now the police can focus on other things, and not engage in enforcing laws that many people obviously don’t agree with and regard as harassment.
Want to reduce incarceration pre and post trial, and greatly reduce the need for probation officers or workloads? You guessed it, legalize drugs!
Want to increase revenues for city, state, and the federal government with a consumption tax that many will willingly pay, but you can easily avoid? Legalize drugs! Impose effective revenue generating taxes on sales, but not so draconian that the whole illegal supply chain is attractive again.
Want to greatly improve immigration problems on our southern border? Hmmm.... this is getting old, but you might consider legalizing drugs. Depending on how Mexico responds they could do the same, legitimizing the trade and taking the financial wind out of narco terrorists sails. Or continue to make them illegal forcing their narco-terrorists to compete against legal US manufacturing and distribution for their largest market. Either way narco-terrorists take it in the shorts. Maybe then the Mexican govt’ can restore some order and peace (Central America might as well) and their citizens will maybe want to stay put.
Now not all is lost for those of you LEO’s who’s current main stock in trade is drug enforcement. With all the tweakers, crack heads, heroin addicts, and other impaired individuals still out there doing the dumb stuff they are already doing, you can get busy with traffic enforcement getting them off the road and generating that sweet revenue your state and local governments crave. At least until self driving cars are more widespread, then it will be really tough to generate revenue from traffic enforcement of impaired driving when a lot of the drunks/high/tripping etc drivers have enough mental wherewithal to engage autopilot on their Tesla.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-09-20, 15:59
The vast majority of our problems with policing in this country, and for that matter a lot of our criminal activity problems stem from recreational drugs being illegal, and the “war on drugs”. Prohibition doesn’t work and enforcement of prohibition on drugs, just like alcohol in the 20’s and 30’s causes more trouble than it stops.
Want to reduce no knock warrants and the idiotic results obtained by police in rare instances? Legalize drugs, most no knocks are drug related warrants as far as I know.
Want to reduce criminal violence significantly in this country, and along with it the need for LEO agencies to need para-military units to deal with that violence? Legalize drugs, by ending the need for an illegal supply chain and distribution people who sell drugs no longer have to take matters into their own hands to resolve business disputes with wars between various drug supply chain factions.
Want to stop frequent negative interactions with police and minority communities, where the police often use drug possession or distribution as a reason to initiate contact? Legalize drugs, amazing now the police can focus on other things, and not engage in enforcing laws that many people obviously don’t agree with and regard as harassment.
Want to reduce incarceration pre and post trial, and greatly reduce the need for probation officers or workloads? You guessed it, legalize drugs!
Want to increase revenues for city, state, and the federal government with a consumption tax that many will willingly pay, but you can easily avoid? Legalize drugs! Impose effective revenue generating taxes on sales, but not so draconian that the whole illegal supply chain is attractive again.
Want to greatly improve immigration problems on our southern border? Hmmm.... this is getting old, but you might consider legalizing drugs. Depending on how Mexico responds they could do the same, legitimizing the trade and taking the financial wind out of narco terrorists sails. Or continue to make them illegal forcing their narco-terrorists to compete against legal US manufacturing and distribution for their largest market. Either way narco-terrorists take it in the shorts. Maybe then the Mexican govt’ can restore some order and peace (Central America might as well) and their citizens will maybe want to stay put.
Now not all is lost for those of you LEO’s who’s current main stock in trade is drug enforcement. With all the tweakers, crack heads, heroin addicts, and other impaired individuals still out there doing the dumb stuff they are already doing, you can get busy with traffic enforcement getting them off the road and generating that sweet revenue your state and local governments crave. At least until self driving cars are more widespread, then it will be really tough to generate revenue from traffic enforcement of impaired driving when a lot of the drunks/high/tripping etc drivers have enough mental wherewithal to engage autopilot on their Tesla.
This guy gets it.
I’m a huge fan of legalizing or decriminalizing drugs. Especially cannabis. But, where I’m at we’re already close to that, policing wise, despite being in a conservative southern state. “Simple possession” is not something commonly used to initiate contact, and if its the only issue found in a traffic stop or other encounter, the dope or paraphernalia usually gets dumped/destroyed, and ignored with no charges. Shit, I know of at least one patch of about a dozen cannabis plants owned by a low income black guy in a rural area that has been found (unintentionally), and ignored. Not even destroyed, because why bother. Its honestly hard to get rolled up for cannabis, unless you are also a douche. Bring a couple 15gal bins of meth into town from another state and proceed to beat your girlfriend in a hotel room while arguing loudly with your co-conspirator, different story.
When users or junkies are encountered loaded up, if there’s nothing else seriously illegal, EMS is contacted and they get the opportunity for a free ride to a hospital with a bed and a free meal, on the taxpayer’s dime.
For mental illness, we have mobile crisis units, and EMS. Cops aren’t bashing these cats in the head and hauling them off unless its absolutely necessary. Same with homeless. As long as they’re not bothering anyone too much, they’re not going to jail or getting harassed.
Cops here aren’t even engaging any of these homeless/addict/mentally ill people in a negative way unless they are forced to by a call for service or by EMS/Fire. And when they do, they tend to make them EMS’s problem so that they don’t get a record, they’re not filling up the jail, and paperwork is lessened, for the cop. They let people off with all kinds of misdemeanors.
Well, if becoming Haiti is their goal, Ive got nothing to add..... good luck?
Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk
The vast majority of our problems with policing in this country, and for that matter a lot of our criminal activity problems stem from recreational drugs being illegal, and the “war on drugs”. Prohibition doesn’t work and enforcement of prohibition on drugs, just like alcohol in the 20’s and 30’s causes more trouble than it stops.
Want to reduce no knock warrants and the idiotic results obtained by police in rare instances? Legalize drugs, most no knocks are drug related warrants as far as I know.
Want to reduce criminal violence significantly in this country, and along with it the need for LEO agencies to need para-military units to deal with that violence? Legalize drugs, by ending the need for an illegal supply chain and distribution people who sell drugs no longer have to take matters into their own hands to resolve business disputes with wars between various drug supply chain factions.
Want to stop frequent negative interactions with police and minority communities, where the police often use drug possession or distribution as a reason to initiate contact? Legalize drugs, amazing now the police can focus on other things, and not engage in enforcing laws that many people obviously don’t agree with and regard as harassment.
Want to reduce incarceration pre and post trial, and greatly reduce the need for probation officers or workloads? You guessed it, legalize drugs!
Want to increase revenues for city, state, and the federal government with a consumption tax that many will willingly pay, but you can easily avoid? Legalize drugs! Impose effective revenue generating taxes on sales, but not so draconian that the whole illegal supply chain is attractive again.
Want to greatly improve immigration problems on our southern border? Hmmm.... this is getting old, but you might consider legalizing drugs. Depending on how Mexico responds they could do the same, legitimizing the trade and taking the financial wind out of narco terrorists sails. Or continue to make them illegal forcing their narco-terrorists to compete against legal US manufacturing and distribution for their largest market. Either way narco-terrorists take it in the shorts. Maybe then the Mexican govt’ can restore some order and peace (Central America might as well) and their citizens will maybe want to stay put.
Now not all is lost for those of you LEO’s who’s current main stock in trade is drug enforcement. With all the tweakers, crack heads, heroin addicts, and other impaired individuals still out there doing the dumb stuff they are already doing, you can get busy with traffic enforcement getting them off the road and generating that sweet revenue your state and local governments crave. At least until self driving cars are more widespread, then it will be really tough to generate revenue from traffic enforcement of impaired driving when a lot of the drunks/high/tripping etc drivers have enough mental wherewithal to engage autopilot on their Tesla.
Not a critique...but I would still be down on the neighborhood meth lab. I don't see meth labs going away even if it was legalized.
I have been working basically 16 hour days, so I came and saw this thread. Sometimes when I don't get in on the start of a thread I like to start at the back of the thread.
I made it to page 15, I read some great posts 1 or 2 , but read enough bad posts to have no desire to read more.
Ask yourself the following, is my house surrounded by a 12 foot high wall topped by broken glass and razor wire? Then every window and your porch sealed closed with steel bars?
You think you at home can by yourself handle a armed gang of 5 to 10 armed guys invading your home. With your family thrown into the mix?
Good point. Do you have enough Mags to hold them off, do you have a way to deal with a molotov thrown on the roof.
Well, the Anoka county sheriffs may be standing down.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/anoka-county-sheriff-minneapolis-must-live-with-the-consequences-if-it-disbands-police-department/
Straight Shooter
06-09-20, 21:01
I actually WANT these demonrat cities to get rid of the police. Itll be THE BEST THING EVER. NOTHING will teach these fools better than getting EXACTLY what they are wanting. And fire/ems can let them know without cop back-up, they aint going into certain areas either.
Give these feckless idiots what they want! If it started today- itll be made aware of how bad a decision it was LONG before the Nov election, and itll give Trump a HUGE boost. Give these animals what they want-let them live like Escape From New York a few months...theyll be BEGGING for help before the first snowfall.
Dr. Bullseye
06-09-20, 21:25
I would be willing to do an exchange deal and defund the Minneapolis police in exchange for defunding the FBI.
BoringGuy45
06-09-20, 21:53
I actually WANT these demonrat cities to get rid of the police. Itll be THE BEST THING EVER. NOTHING will teach these fools better than getting EXACTLY what they are wanting. And fire/ems can let them know without cop back-up, they aint going into certain areas either.
Give these feckless idiots what they want! If it started today- itll be made aware of how bad a decision it was LONG before the Nov election, and itll give Trump a HUGE boost. Give these animals what they want-let them live like Escape From New York a few months...theyll be BEGGING for help before the first snowfall.
I do too. It would be something never attempted before and it will give people a dose of reality real quick. I know people have brought up examples like E. Pittsburgh, PA disbanding their PD, but that doesn't really count. They have no PD, but PA State Police, Allegheny County PD, and the surrounding PDs will respond to emergencies there, and PSP will still answer non-emergency calls for service, albeit with an extremely slow response time. There's also Detroit, but while some neighborhoods are almost unpoliced, the DPD still exists, understaffed and overworked. This is different: They need to learn that people are evil. They need to learn that things go to chaos in a power vacuum; societies don't self harmonize. It's almost needed by now. They've been living under the impression that this is the truth and that anyone who says otherwise is lying.
I would be willing to do an exchange deal and defund the Minneapolis police in exchange for defunding the FBI.
I’d be open to take it even further-
One for one LEO that gets scuttled due to defunding a Democrat steps down from office.
Better yet, for every LE agency that gets disbanded, a federal alphabet agency gets disbanded as well.
That would actually do some good.
titsonritz
06-09-20, 23:22
I actually WANT these demonrat cities to get rid of the police. Itll be THE BEST THING EVER. NOTHING will teach these fools better than getting EXACTLY what they are wanting. And fire/ems can let them know without cop back-up, they aint going into certain areas either.
Give these feckless idiots what they want! If it started today- itll be made aware of how bad a decision it was LONG before the Nov election, and itll give Trump a HUGE boost. Give these animals what they want-let them live like Escape From New York a few months...theyll be BEGGING for help before the first snowfall.
You don't want to jump into buying a car without taking it for a test drive, that is what is needed here, just one weekend. This weekend is good as any, come one LA, NY & Minneapolis put you money where your mouth is and give all the cops the weekend off then see if that is the ride you really want.
sandsunsurf
06-09-20, 23:52
Two thoughts:
1) San Francisco has already started down this road but from a different angle. Their criminal DA doesn’t prosecute any crimes that are based upon “petty” theft (<$1000), poverty or homelessness. Multiple reports and videos of massive increases in vehicle burgs, shoplifting and health-related code violations like shìttìng in public.
2) Burning Man started with a hippy feeling of “love one another and everything is awesome” and as the numbers grew, the number bad things happening grew, and each year more rules are put into place. I remember the year a couple of people were killed when a drunk drove over their tent... next year vehicle rules. Then dogs were dying, so a no dogs rule. Then there were all night long parties, so a quiet zone. Then alcohol being served to youngsters that were getting raped, so then an age limit for alcohol... people piss on the desert, so a rule about that... etc etc etc. there is a handbook of all the rules. It shows that laws and their enforcement have a place even in the “hippiest place on earth.”
Sounds good.
Meanwhile the Right went from arguing that "If someone breaks into your house, by the time the police get there it'll just be to load your body into a body bag" to "but who will respond when someone breaks in at 2am? WE NEED THE POLICE!" The idiocy is staggering on both sides of this issue.
In fairness, I think most of us understand police response and that we are probably "on our own" until the police arrive. But that doesn't mean we don't want the police to cease to exist. We are prepared to defend ourselves if reality requires it, but that doesn't mean we want to go back to "wild west" days.
Also there are going to be times when we leave out loved ones while we do things like "go to work" and it's nice to think there's an option for your family besides teaching your 12 year old how the 870 works.
So I don't think we've swung between the two extremes of logic quite like the left.
Coal Dragger
06-10-20, 00:46
Not a critique...but I would still be down on the neighborhood meth lab. I don't see meth labs going away even if it was legalized.
That’s fair, but given the current state of our results vs money and lives expended/negatively impacted I say it’s worth a shot. The current plan isn’t working and is never going to work.
Omar reimagining "public safety" in Minneapolis probably looks like a lot of Somali Muslims enforcing Sharia law.
That's always been the goal. A national police force to stifle the citizens for the new world order.
That’s fair, but given the current state of our results vs money and lives expended/negatively impacted I say it’s worth a shot. The current plan isn’t working and is never going to work.
Doing the opposite of what isn't working isn't always the solution.
1. When heroin is viewed the same way as beer, how likely is it that people you care about will start using heroin only to discover it's a lot harder to handle than beer?
2. If you think drunks in public are a pain in the ass, how much fun do you think it will be to eat dinner at a nice place only instead of a table full of drunks you have a table of cokeheads next to you?
3. And if you think it sucks to live next door to some jackass who still has his kids (who are all in their 20s) still living at home and all they do all day is smoke weed and steal your shit, what is gonna happen when they can buy meth at the local 7-11?
Who here has had a cop respond to a yard full of assholes drunk as shit and making noise only to tell the homeowner next door that 1. they are on private property, 2. they are all legal drinking age, 3. the noise ordinances don't go into effect until midnight and they can't keep responding to this kind of call anyway and finally 4. if you don't like it you should see if you can get the laws changed.
Now instead of a yard full of drunk shitheads, substitute coke, heroin, meth or 30 other drugs and you will be BEGGING for a yard full of drunk shitheads next door.
The war on drugs isn't working because we really aren't trying to win it. The big problems are:
1. Illegal drugs are so lucrative that pretty much everyone in power gets bought off and Elliot Ness stuff is mostly fiction. If you can't trust the people you work for or with, it ain't gonna happen.
2. We care more about the drug user than stopping the flow of drugs into our country. Once it became a "sickness" we started treating drug users as victims and drug dealers as "victims of their environment" it was all over and now it's so retarded it is often racist to criticize drug users or even drug dealers.
3. We don't control our borders so what did we expect. Thanks to NAFTA, all of our cars, TVs and a bunch of other shit comes up from Mexico and we check almost NONE of it. If we really went looking for illegal drugs at the legit check points, we'd put a strangle hold on everything sold in the US that would shut down companies all over the place. The rest of the drugs float in from China with all the Chinese goods we buy. And if we can't police the thousands of conex containers that show up at the border every day, how in the blue F do you imagine we are gonna control the illegal networks.
4. We lack the BALLS to do anything that would actually control the borders and seriously impede the importation of illegal drugs or the domestic production of the same. We can't even go to war with terrorists without fear of scratching a mosque, does anyone really think we are gonna play hardball against an enemy that generates an income greater than the GDP of entire countries? If we desired, we could shut that shit down in a month but we'd have to kill a **** ton of people and nobody is willing.
So given all that, there is another alternative that is better than swinging from one ridiculous extreme to the other ridiculous extreme. Controlled red light districts. Places where you can obtain any kind of drug you desire that is safer (fewer contaminants) and more affordable than anything sold on the street. But when you check in you become a resident and you may not check out until you are no longer under the influence.
Sure people will end their days there and lots of people will OD, but containment is really the only thing that is gonna work. And even that isn't 100% fool proof. But it's probably better than any solution I've ever heard.
Doing the opposite of what isn't working isn't always the solution.
1. When heroin is viewed the same way as beer, how likely is it that people you care about will start using heroin only to discover it's a lot harder to handle than beer?
2. If you think drunks in public are a pain in the ass, how much fun do you think it will be to eat dinner at a nice place only instead of a table full of drunks you have a table of cokeheads next to you?
3. And if you think it sucks to live next door to some jackass who still has his kids (who are all in their 20s) still living at home and all they do all day is smoke weed and steal your shit, what is gonna happen when they can buy meth at the local 7-11?
Who here has had a cop respond to a yard full of assholes drunk as shit and making noise only to tell the homeowner next door that 1. they are on private property, 2. they are all legal drinking age, 3. the noise ordinances don't go into effect until midnight and they can't keep responding to this kind of call anyway and finally 4. if you don't like it you should see if you can get the laws changed.
Now instead of a yard full of drunk shitheads, substitute coke, heroin, meth or 30 other drugs and you will be BEGGING for a yard full of drunk shitheads next door.
The war on drugs isn't working because we really aren't trying to win it. The big problems are:
1. Illegal drugs are so lucrative that pretty much everyone in power gets bought off and Elliot Ness stuff is mostly fiction. If you can't trust the people you work for or with, it ain't gonna happen.
2. We care more about the drug user than stopping the flow of drugs into our country. Once it became a "sickness" we started treating drug users as victims and drug dealers as "victims of their environment" it was all over and now it's so retarded it is often racist to criticize drug users or even drug dealers.
3. We don't control our borders so what did we expect. Thanks to NAFTA, all of our cars, TVs and a bunch of other shit comes up from Mexico and we check almost NONE of it. If we really went looking for illegal drugs at the legit check points, we'd put a strangle hold on everything sold in the US that would shut down companies all over the place. The rest of the drugs float in from China with all the Chinese goods we buy. And if we can't police the thousands of conex containers that show up at the border every day, how in the blue F do you imagine we are gonna control the illegal networks.
4. We lack the BALLS to do anything that would actually control the borders and seriously impede the importation of illegal drugs or the domestic production of the same. We can't even go to war with terrorists without fear of scratching a mosque, does anyone really think we are gonna play hardball against an enemy that generates an income greater than the GDP of entire countries? If we desired, we could shut that shit down in a month but we'd have to kill a **** ton of people and nobody is willing.
So given all that, there is another alternative that is better than swinging from one ridiculous extreme to the other ridiculous extreme. Controlled red light districts. Places where you can obtain any kind of drug you desire that is safer (fewer contaminants) and more affordable than anything sold on the street. But when you check in you become a resident and you may not check out until you are no longer under the influence.
Sure people will end their days there and lots of people will OD, but containment is really the only thing that is gonna work. And even that isn't 100% fool proof. But it's probably better than any solution I've ever heard.I can safely say that in 40 years I have never lived anywhere near resembling what you described
Also, I don't know anyone who's going to go using heroin just because it's legal
Doing the opposite of what isn't working isn't always the solution.
1. When heroin is viewed the same way as beer, how likely is it that people you care about will start using heroin only to discover it's a lot harder to handle than beer?
2. If you think drunks in public are a pain in the ass, how much fun do you think it will be to eat dinner at a nice place only instead of a table full of drunks you have a table of cokeheads next to you?
3. And if you think it sucks to live next door to some jackass who still has his kids (who are all in their 20s) still living at home and all they do all day is smoke weed and steal your shit, what is gonna happen when they can buy meth at the local 7-11?
Who here has had a cop respond to a yard full of assholes drunk as shit and making noise only to tell the homeowner next door that 1. they are on private property, 2. they are all legal drinking age, 3. the noise ordinances don't go into effect until midnight and they can't keep responding to this kind of call anyway and finally 4. if you don't like it you should see if you can get the laws changed.
Now instead of a yard full of drunk shitheads, substitute coke, heroin, meth or 30 other drugs and you will be BEGGING for a yard full of drunk shitheads next door.
The war on drugs isn't working because we really aren't trying to win it. The big problems are:
1. Illegal drugs are so lucrative that pretty much everyone in power gets bought off and Elliot Ness stuff is mostly fiction. If you can't trust the people you work for or with, it ain't gonna happen.
2. We care more about the drug user than stopping the flow of drugs into our country. Once it became a "sickness" we started treating drug users as victims and drug dealers as "victims of their environment" it was all over and now it's so retarded it is often racist to criticize drug users or even drug dealers.
3. We don't control our borders so what did we expect. Thanks to NAFTA, all of our cars, TVs and a bunch of other shit comes up from Mexico and we check almost NONE of it. If we really went looking for illegal drugs at the legit check points, we'd put a strangle hold on everything sold in the US that would shut down companies all over the place. The rest of the drugs float in from China with all the Chinese goods we buy. And if we can't police the thousands of conex containers that show up at the border every day, how in the blue F do you imagine we are gonna control the illegal networks.
4. We lack the BALLS to do anything that would actually control the borders and seriously impede the importation of illegal drugs or the domestic production of the same. We can't even go to war with terrorists without fear of scratching a mosque, does anyone really think we are gonna play hardball against an enemy that generates an income greater than the GDP of entire countries? If we desired, we could shut that shit down in a month but we'd have to kill a **** ton of people and nobody is willing.
So given all that, there is another alternative that is better than swinging from one ridiculous extreme to the other ridiculous extreme. Controlled red light districts. Places where you can obtain any kind of drug you desire that is safer (fewer contaminants) and more affordable than anything sold on the street. But when you check in you become a resident and you may not check out until you are no longer under the influence.
Sure people will end their days there and lots of people will OD, but containment is really the only thing that is gonna work. And even that isn't 100% fool proof. But it's probably better than any solution I've ever heard.
Worth a shot since decriminalization of alcohol certainly helped.
An interesting read on psychoactive substances.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/psycho.txt#:~:text=o%20Of%20all%20psychoactive%20substances,probably%20because%20of%20preexisting%20psychosis.
We should defund the rioters. 1) Throw a concrete block through a store window? You lose the ability to collect a public aid check for life. 2) Set a business on fire? You lose the ability to live in public housing for life. 3) Join a mob and attack a person who is not involved in the riot? You lose the ability to receive publicly funded medical care for the rest of your life. 4) Travel across three states to turn a crowd of protesters into a rioting mob? You lose the ability to receive any public money to attend college for the rest of your life.
Defund the rioters and after 5 years I would consider discussing defunding local, county and state police agencies.
In fairness, I think most of us understand police response and that we are probably "on our own" until the police arrive. But that doesn't mean we don't want the police to cease to exist. We are prepared to defend ourselves if reality requires it, but that doesn't mean we want to go back to "wild west" days.
Also there are going to be times when we leave out loved ones while we do things like "go to work" and it's nice to think there's an option for your family besides teaching your 12 year old how the 870 works.
So I don't think we've swung between the two extremes of logic quite like the left.
There should a better option instead of nothing or police/prosecutors/judges/etc. with the norm being no consequences for their actions.
Not on this site, but during the Amber Guyger run up I saw more than a few comments from LE/supporters that police should just "smile and wave" if she got convicted so there was and is a problem.
There's no contradiction between people defending themselves and also recognizing the need for law enforcement.
There most certainly is when you act like no one is capable of defining themselves, and that police are 100% necessary for society. That's taking page right out Dem 2A talking points, where people can't be trusted and thus we need the power of the state to always intervene.
I am not sure this has the contradiction in it that you seem to think it does. If someone breaks into my house at 2am there is a high chance I will shoot them . I still think it's necessary to be able to call the local law enforcement after the fact.
But why? Because society has said that you need to? Because there needs to be an "investigation" where they found that one of the bad guys was approx 2" to the left of where a "good shoot" was and they can arrest you? Or, like the store owner who called the cops on a burglarer only to be assaulted and have the the burglarer get away?
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/watch-armed-store-owner-stops-robbery-calls-911-cops-show-up-break-his-jaw-arrest-him/?fbclid=IwAR3be1zlcEbE4UfgHNbogJYWoDEdeo6Y4n34kkp0hRw6ln7FUq5qyNJHNqc
You think you at home can by yourself handle a armed gang of 5 to 10 armed guys invading your home. With your family thrown into the mix?
627886278862788
The police are necessary.
Helluva gang for what's in my place, but hey, your mystical world. So sure, yeah, limit how they can get in, and five guys, no problem.
And that person pictured is an absolute idiot that undoubtedly has never seen the squalor and cesspit that is Haiti.
What a fake equivalence.
I believe in protecting my family. That doesn't mean I have to believe those who are unable or unwilling deserve no protection.
Cool, good for you. I disagree, at least for those who are unwilling to defend themselves. We'd have a lot fewer "pacifists" if people were responsible for their own damn safety. The rest of society should not bear the burden of those who lack the moral courage needed to defend themselves.
As for those unable to defend themselves, that's great. That's why I'm not actually opposed to LE as a concept. That's a very niche area though and doesn't justify the vast expansion we've seen in PDs the last few decades. They should be rolled back to the point where they can do that job, ie, protect those who can't protect themselves, and not be a standing army occupying the country.
I would be willing to do an exchange deal and defund the Minneapolis police in exchange for defunding the FBI.
There ya go. Deal of the century. Win/win if there ever was one.
In fairness, I think most of us understand police response and that we are probably "on our own" until the police arrive. But that doesn't mean we don't want the police to cease to exist. We are prepared to defend ourselves if reality requires it, but that doesn't mean we want to go back to "wild west" days.
Also there are going to be times when we leave out loved ones while we do things like "go to work" and it's nice to think there's an option for your family besides teaching your 12 year old how the 870 works.
So I don't think we've swung between the two extremes of logic quite like the left.
I tend to disagree. Police forces are luxuries, not necessities. They allow, as stated above, for people to hand off responsibility for their own safety, and to live in a world where they think they don't have to worry about such things. In reality, that's not true. Police reaction times are rarely adequate, and in your property is stolen, good luck getting it back. These are all standard, "conservative" talking points, and have been for years. The idea that society would immediately break down the moment we consider reforming or rolling back the police state we have allowed to develop is usually more of a leftist argument, but one conservative have embraced wholeheartedly in the last couple of weeks. It's the equivalent of someone having both a Thin Blue Line flag sticker and a Gadsden or Gonzales flag sticker on their vehicle. It shows a certain level of cognitive dissonance that is quite sad and frustrating.
https://youtu.be/qECchjtBm_s
NYPD response to the defund the police crowd.
I tend to disagree. Police forces are luxuries, not necessities. They allow, as stated above, for people to hand off responsibility for their own safety, and to live in a world where they think they don't have to worry about such things. In reality, that's not true. Police reaction times are rarely adequate, and in your property is stolen, good luck getting it back. These are all standard, "conservative" talking points, and have been for years. The idea that society would immediately break down the moment we consider reforming or rolling back the police state we have allowed to develop is usually more of a leftist argument, but one conservative have embraced wholeheartedly in the last couple of weeks. It's the equivalent of someone having both a Thin Blue Line flag sticker and a Gadsden or Gonzales flag sticker on their vehicle. It shows a certain level of cognitive dissonance that is quite sad and frustrating.
To me this issue isn't that people CAN'T defend themselves. It's that many fear what will happen AFTER they do....
I agree with some of your points, but you need to realize that police exist for more than coming to the rescue in home invasions. And there exists legitimate needs beyond that one call.
There most certainly is when you act like no one is capable of defining themselves, and that police are 100% necessary for society. That's taking page right out Dem 2A talking points, where people can't be trusted and thus we need the power of the state to always intervene.
But why? Because society has said that you need to? Because there needs to be an "investigation" where they found that one of the bad guys was approx 2" to the left of where a "good shoot" was and they can arrest you? Or, like the store owner who called the cops on a burglarer only to be assaulted and have the the burglarer get away?
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/watch-armed-store-owner-stops-robbery-calls-911-cops-show-up-break-his-jaw-arrest-him/?fbclid=IwAR3be1zlcEbE4UfgHNbogJYWoDEdeo6Y4n34kkp0hRw6ln7FUq5qyNJHNqc
Helluva gang for what's in my place, but hey, your mystical world. So sure, yeah, limit how they can get in, and five guys, no problem.
And that person pictured is an absolute idiot that undoubtedly has never seen the squalor and cesspit that is Haiti.
Cool, good for you. I disagree, at least for those who are unwilling to defend themselves. We'd have a lot fewer "pacifists" if people were responsible for their own damn safety. The rest of society should not bear the burden of those who lack the moral courage needed to defend themselves.
As for those unable to defend themselves, that's great. That's why I'm not actually opposed to LE as a concept. That's a very niche area though and doesn't justify the vast expansion we've seen in PDs the last few decades. They should be rolled back to the point where they can do that job, ie, protect those who can't protect themselves, and not be a standing army occupying the country.
There ya go. Deal of the century. Win/win if there ever was one.
I tend to disagree. Police forces are luxuries, not necessities. They allow, as stated above, for people to hand off responsibility for their own safety, and to live in a world where they think they don't have to worry about such things. In reality, that's not true. Police reaction times are rarely adequate, and in your property is stolen, good luck getting it back. These are all standard, "conservative" talking points, and have been for years. The idea that society would immediately break down the moment we consider reforming or rolling back the police state we have allowed to develop is usually more of a leftist argument, but one conservative have embraced wholeheartedly in the last couple of weeks. It's the equivalent of someone having both a Thin Blue Line flag sticker and a Gadsden or Gonzales flag sticker on their vehicle. It shows a certain level of cognitive dissonance that is quite sad and frustrating.
I don't have a problem with resource allocation, de-militaritizing, and restructuring to meet the needs of the community and jurisdiction. God knows there needs to be police and justice system reform. But in my past jobs I have not seen it as a system, nationwide problem.
There most certainly is when you act like no one is capable of defining themselves, and that police are 100% necessary for society. That's taking page right out Dem 2A talking points, where people can't be trusted and thus we need the power of the state to always intervene.
But why? Because society has said that you need to? Because there needs to be an "investigation" where they found that one of the bad guys was approx 2" to the left of where a "good shoot" was and they can arrest you? Or, like the store owner who called the cops on a burglarer only to be assaulted and have the the burglarer get away?
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/watch-armed-store-owner-stops-robbery-calls-911-cops-show-up-break-his-jaw-arrest-him/?fbclid=IwAR3be1zlcEbE4UfgHNbogJYWoDEdeo6Y4n34kkp0hRw6ln7FUq5qyNJHNqc
Helluva gang for what's in my place, but hey, your mystical world. So sure, yeah, limit how they can get in, and five guys, no problem.
And that person pictured is an absolute idiot that undoubtedly has never seen the squalor and cesspit that is Haiti.
Cool, good for you. I disagree, at least for those who are unwilling to defend themselves. We'd have a lot fewer "pacifists" if people were responsible for their own damn safety. The rest of society should not bear the burden of those who lack the moral courage needed to defend themselves.
As for those unable to defend themselves, that's great. That's why I'm not actually opposed to LE as a concept. That's a very niche area though and doesn't justify the vast expansion we've seen in PDs the last few decades. They should be rolled back to the point where they can do that job, ie, protect those who can't protect themselves, and not be a standing army occupying the country.
There ya go. Deal of the century. Win/win if there ever was one.
I tend to disagree. Police forces are luxuries, not necessities. They allow, as stated above, for people to hand off responsibility for their own safety, and to live in a world where they think they don't have to worry about such things. In reality, that's not true. Police reaction times are rarely adequate, and in your property is stolen, good luck getting it back. These are all standard, "conservative" talking points, and have been for years. The idea that society would immediately break down the moment we consider reforming or rolling back the police state we have allowed to develop is usually more of a leftist argument, but one conservative have embraced wholeheartedly in the last couple of weeks. It's the equivalent of someone having both a Thin Blue Line flag sticker and a Gadsden or Gonzales flag sticker on their vehicle. It shows a certain level of cognitive dissonance that is quite sad and frustrating.
So who does traffic stops, investigations, alarm calls, bank robberies, and a million other things.
Self defense/burglary/home invasion: Not everyone wants to or can take a life. Not everyone is willing to and not all religions allow it.
How many people do you need to simultaneously do all that? I'm calling because my neighbors house alarm is going off, someone a few blocks away is calling because there's some kids using the neighborhood street as a drag strip. A few miles away another person is calling about a potential shady character hanging around. On the other side of the town someone is calling because there's a deer hit and crawling on the road. Another call from a person who wants to talk to the authorities about the fireworks last night.
My township has something like 15k people and 20 something cops. I don't know if they have three 8hr shifts or two 12hr. Either way it's something like 7-12 cops for 15k people per shift.
Evel Baldgui
06-10-20, 10:23
Disbanding/defunding the police, is only the first step. Perhaps I'm more cynical than most and have little if no faith in .gov, but I sense something much more sinister in the works. Defund the police in certain states, cities, fine. Who takes over law enforcement ? The State police, NG, county LE? Let's say they're overwhelmed, inadequate resources, unable to maintain order. Next step, maybe establish a Dem controlled National Police force to enforce law and order. They will follow orders, unlike some of those those pesky local sheriffs who won't enforce unconstitutional anti 2A confiscation orders. Maybe a historical precedence ? Hmmm, wasn't the Gestapo/SS a national police force of sorts?
This entire national riot situation was just too well coordinated with assorted factions to be coincidence. Th George Floyd event was just a fortunate incident that was exploited to maximum effect; had this not occurred, something else would have, real or manufactured to illicit the same "its all Trumps fault" response. Especially when the usual suspects are involved, Soros,Clintons,Obamas, MSM, obama plants in the intel agencies/.mil/Red China etc whatever.
Then there is this:
"Defunding the Minneapolis Police Department would likely require public vote to change charter"
https://www.fox9.com/news/defunding-the-minneapolis-police-department-would-likely-require-public-vote-to-change-charter
Don't switch off over the title! Brings up some good points and the Portland then mention vs. what we see now caught my attention.
https://youtu.be/iC9ubZQmfCk
sandsunsurf
06-11-20, 00:55
Today I participated in our zoom meeting for city council. There were about a dozen speakers for general comment, limited to three minutes each. Only two of us spoke in support of police, all of the others spoke about defunding police, how awful capitalism is, and how much more we need to spend money for “affordable housing” and the homeless.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200611/20cee0ff174a63dc85344ba934eb3aa0.jpg
Sorry, but I’m over it- please do not steal my money to give it to lazy fuhks that want to be “urban campers” and poop in our water supply and leave their donated clothes under bridges. And yes I can protect myself and my family, but I want and need police to protect businesses and our comfortable American life..
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200611/bc65185edea926de54a89ab4d2e8bef2.jpg
Here’s a couple of pics of your generous donations to the homeless.... I have hundreds more. No joke.
I can safely say that in 40 years I have never lived anywhere near resembling what you described
Also, I don't know anyone who's going to go using heroin just because it's legal
Wanna know how I know you've never been to Florida?
I tend to disagree. Police forces are luxuries, not necessities. They allow, as stated above, for people to hand off responsibility for their own safety, and to live in a world where they think they don't have to worry about such things. In reality, that's not true. Police reaction times are rarely adequate, and in your property is stolen, good luck getting it back. These are all standard, "conservative" talking points, and have been for years. The idea that society would immediately break down the moment we consider reforming or rolling back the police state we have allowed to develop is usually more of a leftist argument, but one conservative have embraced wholeheartedly in the last couple of weeks. It's the equivalent of someone having both a Thin Blue Line flag sticker and a Gadsden or Gonzales flag sticker on their vehicle. It shows a certain level of cognitive dissonance that is quite sad and frustrating.
Well then, we do disagree.
First I've had some rather positive police response with good results. Lots of good cops out there still trying but they never make the news. I'd also rather let the police and courts deal with certain problems than have to go down myself and deal with some ignorant redneck who is on meth and can't seem to respect my property. I'm willing to do it if I have to, if circumstances force it, but I'd rather not. I have other things to do with my time.
Now I get what you are saying, people who a month ago were decrying JBTs and suggesting all cops do is shoot dogs and service warrants on the wrong address and are now saying "But we NEED cops" because the political discussion changed, well yeah that's a hypocrite.
But I don't think we have too many of them here.
Doing the opposite of what isn't working isn't always the solution.
1. When heroin is viewed the same way as beer, how likely is it that people you care about will start using heroin only to discover it's a lot harder to handle than beer?
2. If you think drunks in public are a pain in the ass, how much fun do you think it will be to eat dinner at a nice place only instead of a table full of drunks you have a table of cokeheads next to you?
3. And if you think it sucks to live next door to some jackass who still has his kids (who are all in their 20s) still living at home and all they do all day is smoke weed and steal your shit, what is gonna happen when they can buy meth at the local 7-11?
Who here has had a cop respond to a yard full of assholes drunk as shit and making noise only to tell the homeowner next door that 1. they are on private property, 2. they are all legal drinking age, 3. the noise ordinances don't go into effect until midnight and they can't keep responding to this kind of call anyway and finally 4. if you don't like it you should see if you can get the laws changed.
Now instead of a yard full of drunk shitheads, substitute coke, heroin, meth or 30 other drugs and you will be BEGGING for a yard full of drunk shitheads next door.
The war on drugs isn't working because we really aren't trying to win it. The big problems are:
1. Illegal drugs are so lucrative that pretty much everyone in power gets bought off and Elliot Ness stuff is mostly fiction. If you can't trust the people you work for or with, it ain't gonna happen.
2. We care more about the drug user than stopping the flow of drugs into our country. Once it became a "sickness" we started treating drug users as victims and drug dealers as "victims of their environment" it was all over and now it's so retarded it is often racist to criticize drug users or even drug dealers.
3. We don't control our borders so what did we expect. Thanks to NAFTA, all of our cars, TVs and a bunch of other shit comes up from Mexico and we check almost NONE of it. If we really went looking for illegal drugs at the legit check points, we'd put a strangle hold on everything sold in the US that would shut down companies all over the place. The rest of the drugs float in from China with all the Chinese goods we buy. And if we can't police the thousands of conex containers that show up at the border every day, how in the blue F do you imagine we are gonna control the illegal networks.
4. We lack the BALLS to do anything that would actually control the borders and seriously impede the importation of illegal drugs or the domestic production of the same. We can't even go to war with terrorists without fear of scratching a mosque, does anyone really think we are gonna play hardball against an enemy that generates an income greater than the GDP of entire countries? If we desired, we could shut that shit down in a month but we'd have to kill a **** ton of people and nobody is willing.
So given all that, there is another alternative that is better than swinging from one ridiculous extreme to the other ridiculous extreme. Controlled red light districts. Places where you can obtain any kind of drug you desire that is safer (fewer contaminants) and more affordable than anything sold on the street. But when you check in you become a resident and you may not check out until you are no longer under the influence.
Sure people will end their days there and lots of people will OD, but containment is really the only thing that is gonna work. And even that isn't 100% fool proof. But it's probably better than any solution I've ever heard.
The Wire was a good show... "Hamsterdam.." When Bunny legalized dope.
Disbanding/defunding the police, is only the first step. Perhaps I'm more cynical than most and have little if no faith in .gov, but I sense something much more sinister in the works. Defund the police in certain states, cities, fine. Who takes over law enforcement ? The State police, NG, county LE? Let's say they're overwhelmed, inadequate resources, unable to maintain order. Next step, maybe establish a Dem controlled National Police force to enforce law and order. They will follow orders, unlike some of those those pesky local sheriffs who won't enforce unconstitutional anti 2A confiscation orders. Maybe a historical precedence ? Hmmm, wasn't the Gestapo/SS a national police force of sorts?
This entire national riot situation was just too well coordinated with assorted factions to be coincidence. Th George Floyd event was just a fortunate incident that was exploited to maximum effect; had this not occurred, something else would have, real or manufactured to illicit the same "its all Trumps fault" response. Especially when the usual suspects are involved, Soros,Clintons,Obamas, MSM, obama plants in the intel agencies/.mil/Red China etc whatever.
As I posted elsewhere, the Weimar Republic was pretty chaotic and eventually voted in a charismatic leader to restore law and order. We're not there yet, but we can see it from here.
As I posted elsewhere, the Weimar Republic was pretty chaotic and eventually voted in a charismatic leader to restore law and order. We're not there yet, but we can see it from here.
Bolsheviks get the rope.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wanna know how I know you've never been to Florida?Sure I have. My dad's cousin owns a condo in Ft. Lauderdale, right on Ft. Lauderdale Beach Blvd. When he's not using it I sometimes do. Been going down there since 96. But regardless Fl isn't all like that. I'm sure if I wanted I could find the same crap here in Pa
Adrenaline_6
06-11-20, 07:41
Sure I have. My dad's cousin owns a condo in Ft. Lauderdale, right on Ft. Lauderdale Beach Blvd. When he's not using it I sometimes do. Been going down there since 96. But regardless Fl isn't all like that. I'm sure if I wanted I could find the same crap here in Pa
To be fair, Steyr is a little jaded because he lived in Sh*town, South Florida. I live in Central Florida. My neighborhood is great. The police presence is awesome. City councils and planners make all the difference.
So who does traffic stops, investigations, alarm calls, bank robberies, and a million other things.
Self defense/burglary/home invasion: Not everyone wants to or can take a life. Not everyone is willing to and not all religions allow it.
How many people do you need to simultaneously do all that? I'm calling because my neighbors house alarm is going off, someone a few blocks away is calling because there's some kids using the neighborhood street as a drag strip. A few miles away another person is calling about a potential shady character hanging around. On the other side of the town someone is calling because there's a deer hit and crawling on the road. Another call from a person who wants to talk to the authorities about the fireworks last night.
My township has something like 15k people and 20 something cops. I don't know if they have three 8hr shifts or two 12hr. Either way it's something like 7-12 cops for 15k people per shift.
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else.
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback.
Bank robberies: bank private security, or more than likely, no one. Easier for insurance since the Feds fund everything, just like we have now. If people really cared about Banks, they could defend them as a community, just like Coffeyville, KS wiped out the Dalton gange while defending their bank.
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be.
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be.
Somebody hits a deer: shoot it yourself, call a friend to shoot it, or leave it be.
Fireworks: leave it be.
Funny enough, almost everything you mentioned could be handled better by other organizations, or are the result of people wanting to be assholes to others, but wanting somebody to be assholes for them. Karens of the worst sort.
Adrenaline_6
06-11-20, 08:52
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else. While they do generate revenue, they also keep dumbasses in check due to this thing called consequences , which prevents accidents
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback. Who can afford a PI for a full on drag out investigation?
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be. Until a kid kills an innocent pedestrian or toddler
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be. Sounds good on paper until that shady character either gets shot and was innocent or shoots someone because he was left alone, does his thing, cuz they are extra shady
@alpha-17 you straight up sound like one of these anti police activists with an agenda and an axe to grind. Why don’t you post who you are affiliated with so we all know what your deal is.
BoringGuy45
06-11-20, 10:03
@alpha-17 you straight up sound like one of these anti police activists with an agenda and an axe to grind. Why don’t you post who you are affiliated with so we all know what your deal is.
I'm getting an ultra-libertarian/anarcho-captialist vibe from his posts; possibly even a bit of sovereign citizen rhetoric.
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else.
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback.
Bank robberies: bank private security, or more than likely, no one. Easier for insurance since the Feds fund everything, just like we have now. If people really cared about Banks, they could defend them as a community, just like Coffeyville, KS wiped out the Dalton gange while defending their bank.
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be.
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be.
Somebody hits a deer: shoot it yourself, call a friend to shoot it, or leave it be.
Fireworks: leave it be.
Funny enough, almost everything you mentioned could be handled better by other organizations, or are the result of people wanting to be assholes to others, but wanting somebody to be assholes for them. Karens of the worst sort.
Can't shoot deer in my state outside of hunting. Felony! Leve it be? Ok it crawls away eventually or people just go around it using the other side of the road! If you think people are actually going to stop and drag it off the road... we're too good for that! Ain't touching it! Could be icky, could be diseased, who knows. Let someone else do it, I'll just quickly jump in the oncoming lane because I have a brand new Porsche and could give two shits about your right of way!
Letting teens drag race? Seriously? Great idea! No one actually wants to walk their dogs, let their kids play outside, or just enjoy the outdoors. Use community watch? Lol! I remember those. We used to tell them to piss off! Went kinda like this. Community person.....go home you can can't be here. Us....how about **** off! That worked well! They have no authority to do anything. What's he going to do call my parents? Need to know my phone number first!
Traffic stops do prevent accidents. Nothing sucks more than getting hit in the wallet. I had a pretty good one time. Cost me lots of insurance, lawyer fees, court fines and time of work. Haven't speed much over 5mph probably in 20 years. Not exactly the same but similar situation with a friend who got a DUI 10 years ago. It sucked an all but he hasn't touched a beer since because the whole ordeal cost him around $10k. Now, he thinks it's not even worth the bother. So who knows how many people out there are thinking I'm not going to speed cause last time it cost me a lot of money.
Go look myself? I'm not the one calling it in. The old guy with the oxygen tank is. What's he going to do?
Defend banks? Seriously? I'll make sure they have my bat signal on the roof so I get a warning and can leave my job and drive over. Same for everyone else. Seriously suggest getting into a shootout with bank robbers? This isn't the "wild west". Today you're responsible for each round that leaves your gun.
Community security, community watch can't do jack. They have no authority and they have no insurance to. Touch me and I'll sue you personally for assault. Police have insurance and lawyers for that. And they're acting on behalf of the state. Who's the community people acting on behalf? What authority? There no consequence. I can hang around your house and tell you to go F yourself and nothing you can actually do. Just let me be? Stand on public road and take pics of your kids all day because I may be a petterass! Maybe expose myself to them, or your wife!
To be fair, Steyr is a little jaded because he lived in Sh*town, South Florida. I live in Central Florida. My neighborhood is great. The police presence is awesome. City councils and planners make all the difference.Yea I kinda figured that. I had a response written out but it started to sound way to snobbish and that wasn't my intention so I just left it alone.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-11-20, 10:41
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else. Actually they do prevent accidents. I can always tell when the police haven't been running radar on the main street outside of my sub division.
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback. A private detective doesn't have the same powers so probably not much use. Also, I guess poor people don't get to have anything investigated.
Bank robberies: bank private security, or more than likely, no one. Easier for insurance since the Feds fund everything, just like we have now. If people really cared about Banks, they could defend them as a community, just like Coffeyville, KS wiped out the Dalton gange while defending their bank. Private security details and community posses. Seems like a great idea for every neighborhood.
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be. What is a community watch going to do? And no I don't want to leave them be, I like being able to walk down my street.
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be. Make sure to tell your grandmother or 20 year old daughter to just go look for themselves.
Somebody hits a deer: shoot it yourself, call a friend to shoot it, or leave it be.
Fireworks: leave it be.
Funny enough, almost everything you mentioned could be handled better by other organizations, or are the result of people wanting to be assholes to others, but wanting somebody to be assholes for them. Karens of the worst sort.
Response in red
teufelhund1918
06-11-20, 11:06
So funny and sad at the same time. The idiots in Seattle take over a few blocks of the city and forbid the cops from coming in. From the news, and really not even one day into it and the descent into anarchy is already happening with self proclaimed Po Po walking around with their hated assault rifles wanting to check id's of people within the zone, extorting and shaking them and businesses down, and now they are pleading for food to be sent in... I guess they expect it for free too. This is historically correct for socialist/commie liberations. Lol... I bet there are a bunch of people in the autonomous zone who suddenly believe in the 2nd Amendment and Capitalism now. Liberal politicians and liberal police commissioners are preventing responses to 911 calls in the area because they are wanting a "dialogue" with basically terrorists while probably some decent people within the zone have a knee on their neck....
“It’s just a matter of establishing this dialogue. We’d love nothing more than to be able to open our precinct buildings,” Nollette said. “What we want to do is give an opportunity for everyone’s tempers to calm, and for us to approach the table with a view towards equality." <<<< This is a quote from the Assistant Chief of Police!!! You really can't make this :O)~ up!!!
https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-protests-armed-guards-local-businesses-extortion
Don't switch off over the title! Brings up some good points and the Portland then mention vs. what we see now caught my attention.
https://youtu.be/iC9ubZQmfCk
Around 7:27 he kind of goes back on his earlier story about how when he was a kid driving cops were cool.
Also the whole drug out of the car, up against the wall, etc. notice how he doesn't mention how it ended?
Pretty disjointed narrative, sounds like he was a bit of a hell-raiser when he was a kid, and hung with at least one brawler.
I do get what he is saying though, and I tend to agree that in many places police have gotten away from the communities they serve. I can think of several reasons that has happened, some of them legit, some of them bullshit.
When you start complaining though, start from the top down.
As an example, he talked about the hill where it is easy to speed. Perhaps unbeknownst to him a very irate mother had called in several times complaining that her kids had been almost run over by speeding drivers. As a supervisor there are several things to do, easiest is to remind folks what the speed limit is with one of those big flashy billboard things sitting by the side of the road. The next step would be to have the beat officers watch that area when they can, and show some enforcement action being taken, at this point I'm more interested in having other motorists seeing the action being taken, so at first I'd tell the beat officers no need for tickets, just warnings. And so on.
Problem is that if I say 'I want you to run radar in that area we've been getting complaints on when you aren't busy' and don't add 'just trying to slow them down, no need for tickets unless its way over the limit' the cops are going to write tickets to show me they did what I told them.
Likewise, if the Chief tells me - 'I'm getting complaints about speeders on that hill over by........take care of it.' I would probably say, 'okay, but the average speed is 10 over there, how about we try to slow them down by....' The average supervisor might say 'sure Chief' and tell his guys he wants a ticket factory on the hill to cover his ass with the Chief.
Officers on the street for the most part police within agency expectations, the exception being a few rogues who would abuse power no matter what. Some agencies do better than others in culling those guys out.
Establishing those expectations should flow from city government, though the Chief, and downward.
BoringGuy45
06-11-20, 11:42
So funny and sad at the same time. The idiots in Seattle take over a few blocks of the city and forbid the cops from coming in. From the news, and really not even one day into it and the descent into anarchy is already happening with self proclaimed Po Po walking around with their hated assault rifles wanting to check id's of people within the zone, extorting and shaking them and businesses down, and now they are pleading for food to be sent in... I guess they expect it for free too. This is historically correct for socialist/commie liberations. Lol... I bet there are a bunch of people in the autonomous zone who suddenly believe in the 2nd Amendment and Capitalism now. Liberal politicians and liberal police commissioners are preventing responses to 911 calls in the area because they are wanting a "dialogue" with basically terrorists while probably some decent people within the zone have a knee on their neck....
“It’s just a matter of establishing this dialogue. We’d love nothing more than to be able to open our precinct buildings,” Nollette said. “What we want to do is give an opportunity for everyone’s tempers to calm, and for us to approach the table with a view towards equality." <<<< This is a quote from the Assistant Chief of Police!!! You really can't make this :O)~ up!!!
https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-protests-armed-guards-local-businesses-extortion
I say let it ride out. In fact, I want to see "autonomous zones" in ALL the cities where this bullshit is going on. They wants it, they gets it. If they want relief and for the real police to take over again, I want them crawling back on their f**kin' knees and BEGGING for help.
So funny and sad at the same time. The idiots in Seattle take over a few blocks of the city and forbid the cops from coming in. From the news, and really not even one day into it and the descent into anarchy is already happening with self proclaimed Po Po walking around with their hated assault rifles wanting to check id's of people within the zone, extorting and shaking them and businesses down, and now they are pleading for food to be sent in... I guess they expect it for free too. This is historically correct for socialist/commie liberations. Lol... I bet there are a bunch of people in the autonomous zone who suddenly believe in the 2nd Amendment and Capitalism now. Liberal politicians and liberal police commissioners are preventing responses to 911 calls in the area because they are wanting a "dialogue" with basically terrorists while probably some decent people within the zone have a knee on their neck....
“It’s just a matter of establishing this dialogue. We’d love nothing more than to be able to open our precinct buildings,” Nollette said. “What we want to do is give an opportunity for everyone’s tempers to calm, and for us to approach the table with a view towards equality." <<<< This is a quote from the Assistant Chief of Police!!! You really can't make this :O)~ up!!!
https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-protests-armed-guards-local-businesses-extortion
Hence why Seattle is utterly and totally F-ed. I have a buddy who left that PD for one close by that interacts with Seattle PD a lot. The PD he is with now he says is GTG, but stuff he's told me about Seattle is mind boggling what their LEO's put up with and why they're leaving in large numbers and having great difficulties in getting new recruits.
Worth a shot since decriminalization of alcohol certainly helped.
Alcohol and pot have some reasonable comparisons.
But hard drugs DRIVE a significant amount of property crime.
Overcoming the criminal drug manufacturers and supply chain is still going to take decades and focused enforcement. It's not like the Mob dissapeared as soon as prohibition ended.
I'm not buying the arguments in favor of the war on drugs or in favor of complete legalization.
I'm living on the recieving end of poorly executed marijuana legalization. It's not pretty and is actually increasing crime.
teufelhund1918
06-11-20, 11:53
Hence why Seattle is utterly and totally F-ed. I have a buddy who left that PD for one close by that interacts with Seattle PD a lot. The PD he is with now he says is GTG, but stuff he's told me about Seattle is mind boggling what their LEO's put up with and why they're leaving in large numbers and having great difficulties in getting new recruits.
A lot of anarchists walking around threatening people with assault weapons..... This should be a pretty much perfect example that it is not the gun that is the problem, it is the intent of the person behind the gun. I doubt that many people will get it though.
Adrenaline_6
06-11-20, 11:56
Hence why Seattle is utterly and totally F-ed. I have a buddy who left that PD for one close by that interacts with Seattle PD a lot. The PD he is with now he says is GTG, but stuff he's told me about Seattle is mind boggling what their LEO's put up with and why they're leaving in large numbers and having great difficulties in getting new recruits.
I remember in the 90's, Seattle was recruiting hard in other cities. They had pre-movie employment ads in movie theaters in Hawaii all the time.
Around 7:27 he kind of goes back on his earlier story about how when he was a kid driving cops were cool.
Also the whole drug out of the car, up against the wall, etc. notice how he doesn't mention how it ended?
Pretty disjointed narrative, sounds like he was a bit of a hell-raiser when he was a kid, and hung with at least one brawler.
I do get what he is saying though, and I tend to agree that in many places police have gotten away from the communities they serve. I can think of several reasons that has happened, some of them legit, some of them bullshit.
When you start complaining though, start from the top down.
As an example, he talked about the hill where it is easy to speed. Perhaps unbeknownst to him a very irate mother had called in several times complaining that her kids had been almost run over by speeding drivers. As a supervisor there are several things to do, easiest is to remind folks what the speed limit is with one of those big flashy billboard things sitting by the side of the road. The next step would be to have the beat officers watch that area when they can, and show some enforcement action being taken, at this point I'm more interested in having other motorists seeing the action being taken, so at first I'd tell the beat officers no need for tickets, just warnings. And so on.
Problem is that if I say 'I want you to run radar in that area we've been getting complaints on when you aren't busy' and don't add 'just trying to slow them down, no need for tickets unless its way over the limit' the cops are going to write tickets to show me they did what I told them.
Likewise, if the Chief tells me - 'I'm getting complaints about speeders on that hill over by........take care of it.' I would probably say, 'okay, but the average speed is 10 over there, how about we try to slow them down by....' The average supervisor might say 'sure Chief' and tell his guys he wants a ticket factory on the hill to cover his ass with the Chief.
Officers on the street for the most part police within agency expectations, the exception being a few rogues who would abuse power no matter what. Some agencies do better than others in culling those guys out.
Establishing those expectations should flow from city government, though the Chief, and downward.
I wondered how the drug out of the car ended also.
The 7:27 mark caught my attention too, but got the impression that was *maybe* another city vs. the city he lived in. When I went to high school in the early 1990's the students could have been living in 4 cities within the same county so a possible explanation. As you pointed out though, he rambled a lot.
The sheriff vs. police issue he mentioned has been something I have noticed for the most part. And I am aware of people calling in to complain about speeding or other traffic violations and how they are often the first ones nailed in the increased enforcement they wanted.
Alcohol and pot have some reasonable comparisons.
But hard drugs DRIVE a significant amount of property crime.
Overcoming the criminal drug manufacturers and supply chain is still going to take decades and focused enforcement. It's not like the Mob dissapeared as soon as prohibition ended.
I'm not buying the arguments in favor of the war on drugs or in favor of complete legalization.
I'm living on the recieving end of poorly executed marijuana legalization. It's not pretty and is actually increasing crime.
Actually I think alcohol and hard drugs are closer.
I haven't been around a huge number of pot heads, but the few I have been around were laid back to the point of being annoyingly passive and drive and everything else slow vs. heavy drinkers showing up in weekend bar fights and driving well beyond their ability.
More though of why I consider the hard drugs and alcohol link is manufacturing. A lot of the issues with drugs is impurities from people cranking out a batch in their garage and so on, either out of ignorance or greed. That was also an issue with illicit liquor with 2 of the better known negative outcomes being jake leg and blindness. An interesting book that has a chapter or 2 on illegal liquor is "Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephart where he details some of the tricks used to increase yield or give a false appearance of quality and the effects on the end users. Try to get one of the 1922-1936 copyrighted editions since those mention the outcome of the Volstead Act which hadn't happened in 1913 with the first printing.
And one of the bigger issues is distributing or to paraphrase Vin Suprynowicz, when was the last time you saw a Budweiser and a Miller distributor get in a shootout over a sales area.
BoringGuy45
06-11-20, 13:05
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else.
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback.
Bank robberies: bank private security, or more than likely, no one. Easier for insurance since the Feds fund everything, just like we have now. If people really cared about Banks, they could defend them as a community, just like Coffeyville, KS wiped out the Dalton gange while defending their bank.
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be.
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be.
Somebody hits a deer: shoot it yourself, call a friend to shoot it, or leave it be.
Fireworks: leave it be.
Funny enough, almost everything you mentioned could be handled better by other organizations, or are the result of people wanting to be assholes to others, but wanting somebody to be assholes for them. Karens of the worst sort.
One thing you're not taking into account with your dream of privatized/community public safety: We lose all our rights. Remember, it is the government, not private enterprises, that are limited by the Bill of Rights. You change over from police detectives to private detectives? They can come in your house without a warrant. Private security doesn't have to have to provide you with a lawyer if they detain and interrogate you. As for community security, what makes you think a bunch of George Zimmermans and Travis McMichaels are going to dispense more reasonable and fair justice?
Honestly, it sounds like the society you're dreaming of is one simply where people get to do whatever they want, even if doing so involves preying on others. Basically, we need to be like the animal kingdom: The weak get weeded out and do not deserve protection.
Rifleman_04
06-11-20, 13:12
One thing you're not taking into account with your dream of privatized/community public safety: We lose all our rights. Remember, it is the government, not private enterprises, that are limited by the Bill of Rights. You change over from police detectives to private detectives? They can come in your house without a warrant. Private security doesn't have to have to provide you with a lawyer if they detain and interrogate you. As for community security, what makes you think a bunch of George Zimmermans and Travis McMichaels are going to dispense more reasonable and fair justice?
Honestly, it sounds like the society you're dreaming of is one simply where people get to do whatever they want, even if doing so involves preying on others. Basically, we need to be like the animal kingdom: The weak get weeded out and do not deserve protection.
What? Private organizations or people can’t do any of that. That’s how people get justifiably shot in the face.
Alcohol and pot have some reasonable comparisons.
But hard drugs DRIVE a significant amount of property crime.
Booz and hard drugs are a legit comparison there. Booze causing more problems over all than all the hard drugs combined by a margin.
Overcoming the criminal drug manufacturers and supply chain is still going to take decades and focused enforcement.
That's a "simple" one and the free market will work as intended if the legal supply costs less than the illegal supply, not even mentioning quality, ease of getting it, etc. The problem is,per usual, the gubment sucks at what it does, and pot (for example) often cheaper via illegal routes vs the legal routes. Even then, legal pot has put a serious crimp in illegal pot sellers. Over taxing, regulations, etc, etc the gubment per usual can't get out of it's own way but in locations where legal pot is cheaper than illigal pot, you think anyone is buying illegal pot? Would you? Of course not.
It's not like the Mob dissapeared as soon as prohibition ended.
No, but they went into a different line of making $ very quickly as legal booze cost less and came without the hassles and their booz biz dried up real fast. Real lesson to me is, the mob would have never become that powerful in the first place if not for prohibition. The US Gubment in its wizdom of trying to enforce morality on citizens, gave us the mob.
I'm not buying the arguments in favor of the war on drugs or in favor of complete legalization.
I'm living on the recieving end of poorly executed marijuana legalization. It's not pretty and is actually increasing crime.
And that's the key issue right there. Until the fed status changes, the state by state cluster stuff is going to continue to be all over the place and mostly miss the mark.
BoringGuy45
06-11-20, 13:44
What? Private organizations or people can’t do any of that. That’s how people get justifiably shot in the face.
Yes, but my point was that, in Alpha-17's privatized world, there is no legal recourse if some private detective kicks in your door looking for evidence without a warrant.
Colorado has cartel problems and black market pot big time though as do other places/states that are legal
Many dispensaries find buying black market pot cheaper then growing etc... some are being strong armed extorted also
Meth use is out of control and rising they say and hard drug use is way up overall because of legalizing pot since many get used to it want the next high etc....
Legalizing drugs fine but then the punishment for any drug related crime would have to be stiff AND actually implemented/prosecuted
One of many articles
https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2020/01/the-state-of-the-marijuana-black-market/
My brother is a state prosecutor in a legal state so info I have gotten from him also basically the system is not working illegal use as high as ever and in many cases cartel members are even stronger and can legally move money supply now
Think mob of old las vegas who was really in control
Current setup is not working
I do agree on gov getting in the way taxing etc....
Yes, but my point was that, in Alpha-17's privatized world, there is no legal recourse if some private detective kicks in your door looking for evidence without a warrant.
Sure there is, you shoot him in the face. Castle Doctrine must be the law of the land.
Sure there is, you shoot him in the face. Castle Doctrine must be the law of the land.
Unless you're in NY or someplace like it with no castle doctrine and you are, and I'm not making this up, expected to try to escape out a back window if someone breaks in through the front of your house rather than shoot them while inside your home???
Colorado has cartel problems and black market pot big time though as do other places/states that are legal
Many dispensaries find buying black market pot cheaper then growing etc... some are being strong armed extorted also
That was mentioned in terms of illicit alcohol in Kephart's "Our Southern Highlanders".
When taxes were low, blockading/moonshining dropped off the map. When taxes were cranked up, for any reason, illicit production was able to compete with big distillers paying the tax.
Colorado has cartel problems and black market pot big time though as do other places/states that are legal
Many dispensaries find buying black market pot cheaper then growing etc... some are being strong armed extorted also
Meth use is out of control and rising they say and hard drug use is way up overall because of legalizing pot since many get used to it want the next high etc....
Legalizing drugs fine but then the punishment for any drug related crime would have to be stiff AND actually implemented/prosecuted
One of many articles
https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2020/01/the-state-of-the-marijuana-black-market/
My brother is a state prosecutor in a legal state so info I have gotten from him also basically the system is not working illegal use as high as ever and in many cases cartel members are even stronger and can legally move money supply now
Think mob of old las vegas who was really in control
Current setup is not working
I do agree on gov getting in the way taxing etc....
That's the key right there as a major aspect of success.
Unless you're in NY or someplace like it with no castle doctrine and you are, and I'm not making this up, expected to try to escape out a back window if someone breaks in through the front of your house rather than shoot them while inside your home???Well, in this "privatized nirvana" if the police have been defunded whos going to roll you up for that?
Are you going to tell someone about the stiff or call a buddy and apply the "good friend" test.
Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk
Actually I think alcohol and hard drugs are closer.
Neither drunks nor potheads go around stealing enough to get their next hit.
Plenty use but don't abuse alcohol and pot, while there are very few functional heroin or meth users.
Potheads tend to neglect their children rather than beat them and also drive outrageous impaired.
There are shootouts, murders, and home invasions involving the "legal" marijuana industry here.
Neither drunks nor potheads go around stealing enough to get their next hit.
Plenty use but don't abuse alcohol and pot, while there are very few functional heroin or meth users.
Potheads tend to neglect their children rather than beat them and also drive outrageous impaired.
There are shootouts, murders, and home invasions involving the "legal" marijuana industry here.
Make alcohol a disqualifier for employment in the way the other drugs are and you will see unemployed alcoholics stealing to get their fix.
I haven't witnessed either condition, but alcohol and heroin withdrawals sound very similar.
MountainRaven
06-11-20, 21:19
Since it seems to be popping up a bit... A brief history of how modern British law enforcement came to be and what it replaced (American law enforcement is modeled in many ways on British law enforcement):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvMQY_y4qx8
(This is one of five videos.)
Fun fact: Prior to modern law enforcement, yeah, pretty much everything WRT investigation and recovery of property was done privately. Which was not exactly a panacea.
PracticalRifleman
06-11-20, 22:05
Alcoholism has to be pretty bad for withdraws. Additionally, the health affects of alcohol are much more long term. The weekend warrior doesn’t detox from alcohol.
Heroine, meth, bath salts, etc seem to be much more addictive and more health problems are apparent relatively immediately.
Comparing alcohol to heroine or methamphetamine is ridiculous.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I probably see more alcohol related problems in the streets than all other drugs combined. Literally every shift. Including people drinking antifreeze to try to get drunk. Alcohol intox is common in assaults, suicides, murders, domestics, theft, motor vehicle incidents... pretty much everything. Drunks seem to be among the most likely patients to assault healthcare providers. Also, untaxed and possibly adulterated booze is not unusual here.
Tons of responses, so if I miss anyone's question or accusation, I'm sorry.
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else. While they do generate revenue, they also keep dumbasses in check due to this thing called consequences , which prevents accidents
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback. Who can afford a PI for a full on drag out investigation?
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be. Until a kid kills an innocent pedestrian or toddler
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be. Sounds good on paper until that shady character either gets shot and was innocent or shoots someone because he was left alone, does his thing, cuz they are extra shady
I tend to doubt the effectiveness of traffic stops simply because I've never observed it happening myself. They tend to target certain types of vehicle to make money, or prey on vehicles at certain times of night in order to play "gotcha!" with some people, rather than keep anyone safe. If a police investigation is worthwhile, a PI will likely be as well. As for the shady invididual getting shot, your worst case sounds exactly like what happens today in a lot of cases with police. If the worse case is no worse than what we have, why not give it a try?
@alpha-17 you straight up sound like one of these anti police activists with an agenda and an axe to grind. Why don’t you post who you are affiliated with so we all know what your deal is.
No agenda, no real axe to grind. Total transparency: Registered Republican, tend to vote libertarian. I've never been arrested, I have been held at gunpoint and handcuffed (for holding an airsoft gun). I've had family in law enforcement and toyed with trying law enforcement myself when I ETS'ed in '15, but decided against it when I saw the amount of internal politics/corruption involved. No thanks. Not affiliated with anyone. I do tend to lean anti-police these days because of the relatively steady abuse of power we see, from no knocks gone wrong to police support for anti-2A measures. How many individual cops and departments have reacted to the riots has disgusted me in general as well, which has brought on my posts here. Between Virgina's anti-gun laws, how Corona restrictions were implemented, and now the riots, it's pretty clear that most police officers will absolutely follow whatever orders they have been given, and should not be counted on to do anything else. Basically, I think you could sum up my opinions on governmental/law enforcement power and authority as "never give government the ability to do something to your fellow citizens that you wouldn't mind them doing to you for similar reasons." (with similar reasons being as defined by your enemies, of course)
I'm getting an ultra-libertarian/anarcho-captialist vibe from his posts; possibly even a bit of sovereign citizen rhetoric.
I don't know if I'm an "ultra-libertarian" but I'm certainly not anarcho-capitalist. Firm believer in the necessity of government, which is why I said a while back I'm not advocating for the complete elimination of police forces, but rather see them defunded and reduced in scope and power. The Sovereign Citizen bit probably has a ring of truth to it, though I'm not sure to what extent I would call myself one.
Can't shoot deer in my state outside of hunting. Felony! Leve it be? Ok it crawls away eventually or people just go around it using the other side of the road! If you think people are actually going to stop and drag it off the road... we're too good for that! Ain't touching it! Could be icky, could be diseased, who knows. Let someone else do it, I'll just quickly jump in the oncoming lane because I have a brand new Porsche and could give two shits about your right of way!
Letting teens drag race? Seriously? Great idea! No one actually wants to walk their dogs, let their kids play outside, or just enjoy the outdoors. Use community watch? Lol! I remember those. We used to tell them to piss off! Went kinda like this. Community person.....go home you can can't be here. Us....how about **** off! That worked well! They have no authority to do anything. What's he going to do call my parents? Need to know my phone number first!
Traffic stops do prevent accidents. Nothing sucks more than getting hit in the wallet. I had a pretty good one time. Cost me lots of insurance, lawyer fees, court fines and time of work. Haven't speed much over 5mph probably in 20 years. Not exactly the same but similar situation with a friend who got a DUI 10 years ago. It sucked an all but he hasn't touched a beer since because the whole ordeal cost him around $10k. Now, he thinks it's not even worth the bother. So who knows how many people out there are thinking I'm not going to speed cause last time it cost me a lot of money.
Go look myself? I'm not the one calling it in. The old guy with the oxygen tank is. What's he going to do?
Defend banks? Seriously? I'll make sure they have my bat signal on the roof so I get a warning and can leave my job and drive over. Same for everyone else. Seriously suggest getting into a shootout with bank robbers? This isn't the "wild west". Today you're responsible for each round that leaves your gun.
Community security, community watch can't do jack. They have no authority and they have no insurance to. Touch me and I'll sue you personally for assault. Police have insurance and lawyers for that. And they're acting on behalf of the state. Who's the community people acting on behalf? What authority? There no consequence. I can hang around your house and tell you to go F yourself and nothing you can actually do. Just let me be? Stand on public road and take pics of your kids all day because I may be a petterass! Maybe expose myself to them, or your wife!
I've already addressed a few points, so see above for those. For the deer example, you cite cultural/legal reasons for why it wouldn't work. Well, why not change those as well? Put exemptions in the law for when and where you can shoot a deer. Personally, I don't think the state should have any damn business if I hunt on my property in or out of season, but let's say that's still on the books; decriminalizing shooting a wounded animal, with appropriate documentation of the incident would be fine. And besides, if the popos aren't there to arrest you, what difference does it make if it is a felony? Will the handcuffs fall out of the sky and teleport you off the jail?
As for the guy in oxygen tanks, I mentioned in my original post what could be done.
Banks: with the prevalence of notifications such as "amber alerts" a system that notifies people that have volunteered to act as security is hardly far fetched. Funny how you seem to think people stopping bank robbers is so ridiculous, but think that police are the perfect answer. Shouldn't they be responsible for every bullet they fire? Oh yeah, they can killed Socor mom and her 3 kids while firing wildly, and it's OK because they're "the Law."
One thing you're not taking into account with your dream of privatized/community public safety: We lose all our rights. Remember, it is the government, not private enterprises, that are limited by the Bill of Rights. You change over from police detectives to private detectives? They can come in your house without a warrant. Private security doesn't have to have to provide you with a lawyer if they detain and interrogate you. As for community security, what makes you think a bunch of George Zimmermans and Travis McMichaels are going to dispense more reasonable and fair justice?
Honestly, it sounds like the society you're dreaming of is one simply where people get to do whatever they want, even if doing so involves preying on others. Basically, we need to be like the animal kingdom: The weak get weeded out and do not deserve protection.
That's an incredibly stupid point, I'm sorry. By your logic, we should be seeing massive abuses of civil liberties today through any number of private businesses. Why aren't salesmen beating down my door to put items in my living room then stealing money? Or PIs breaking in and getting away with it? I guess trespassing and "Castle doctrines" don't apply? And civil suits aren't a thing? Again, I'm not really proposing some sort of magical anarchist world view, I'm simply saying that there are alternatives to all-powerful police departments. It's an easy "fix" if this were an issue by simply requiring any privatized police force to sign a contract with the government with requirements for protecting civil liberties/the Bill of Rights. And unlike with police departments now, if they break that "social contract" they can be fired, and replaced by another private company. At best now, a few bad officers may be removed, as opposed to the organization that encouraged such behavior.
As to your final point, I am somewhat divided on it. To a certain extent, the weak should be "weeded out." I don't mean in a Darwinian sense, but rather that weakness should not be tolerated when there are other options. People should know how and be able to take care of themselves. People that won't (not can't) take care of themselves don't really deserve protection, and they most certainly don't deserve to use Law Enforcement as their personal enforcers through SWATing or other malicious use of the police. Exceptions to this exist, such as the poor fellow on oxygen tanks mentioned a few examples back. Those people absolutely deserve protection, and ideally, the community would provide it. As a society though, we've take that personal, community protection and pushed it off to the State. Many churches for many years did the same with its obligations to care for the weak, and that's led to a lot of problems as well. I probably don't have a perfect answer for this, but I tend to agree with the line "government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem," even if I don't care with the guy who said it.
Its funny, but I tend to think that you guys have me pegged as being even more radical and uncompromising than I am. I have a tendency to push back if pushed, so if challenged on a point, I will try to figure a counter to your argument, even if it goes beyond what I originally was arguing for. We've seen that here quite a bit. At the very least it is forcing me to consider things from different angles. It has been an interesting intellectual exercise though, and I am enjoying the conversation, so let's keep it up.
Tons of responses, so if I miss anyone's question or accusation, I'm sorry.
I tend to doubt the effectiveness of traffic stops simply because I've never observed it happening myself. They tend to target certain types of vehicle to make money, or prey on vehicles at certain times of night in order to play "gotcha!" with some people, rather than keep anyone safe. If a police investigation is worthwhile, a PI will likely be as well. As for the shady invididual getting shot, your worst case sounds exactly like what happens today in a lot of cases with police. If the worse case is no worse than what we have, why not give it a try?
No agenda, no real axe to grind. Total transparency: Registered Republican, tend to vote libertarian. I've never been arrested, I have been held at gunpoint and handcuffed (for holding an airsoft gun). I've had family in law enforcement and toyed with trying law enforcement myself when I ETS'ed in '15, but decided against it when I saw the amount of internal politics/corruption involved. No thanks. Not affiliated with anyone. I do tend to lean anti-police these days because of the relatively steady abuse of power we see, from no knocks gone wrong to police support for anti-2A measures. How many individual cops and departments have reacted to the riots has disgusted me in general as well, which has brought on my posts here. Between Virgina's anti-gun laws, how Corona restrictions were implemented, and now the riots, it's pretty clear that most police officers will absolutely follow whatever orders they have been given, and should not be counted on to do anything else. Basically, I think you could sum up my opinions on governmental/law enforcement power and authority as "never give government the ability to do something to your fellow citizens that you wouldn't mind them doing to you for similar reasons." (with similar reasons being as defined by your enemies, of course)
I don't know if I'm an "ultra-libertarian" but I'm certainly not anarcho-capitalist. Firm believer in the necessity of government, which is why I said a while back I'm not advocating for the complete elimination of police forces, but rather see them defunded and reduced in scope and power. The Sovereign Citizen bit probably has a ring of truth to it, though I'm not sure to what extent I would call myself one.
I've already addressed a few points, so see above for those. For the deer example, you cite cultural/legal reasons for why it wouldn't work. Well, why not change those as well? Put exemptions in the law for when and where you can shoot a deer. Personally, I don't think the state should have any damn business if I hunt on my property in or out of season, but let's say that's still on the books; decriminalizing shooting a wounded animal, with appropriate documentation of the incident would be fine. And besides, if the popos aren't there to arrest you, what difference does it make if it is a felony? Will the handcuffs fall out of the sky and teleport you off the jail?
As for the guy in oxygen tanks, I mentioned in my original post what could be done.
Banks: with the prevalence of notifications such as "amber alerts" a system that notifies people that have volunteered to act as security is hardly far fetched. Funny how you seem to think people stopping bank robbers is so ridiculous, but think that police are the perfect answer. Shouldn't they be responsible for every bullet they fire? Oh yeah, they can killed Socor mom and her 3 kids while firing wildly, and it's OK because they're "the Law."
That's an incredibly stupid point, I'm sorry. By your logic, we should be seeing massive abuses of civil liberties today through any number of private businesses. Why aren't salesmen beating down my door to put items in my living room then stealing money? Or PIs breaking in and getting away with it? I guess trespassing and "Castle doctrines" don't apply? And civil suits aren't a thing? Again, I'm not really proposing some sort of magical anarchist world view, I'm simply saying that there are alternatives to all-powerful police departments. It's an easy "fix" if this were an issue by simply requiring any privatized police force to sign a contract with the government with requirements for protecting civil liberties/the Bill of Rights. And unlike with police departments now, if they break that "social contract" they can be fired, and replaced by another private company. At best now, a few bad officers may be removed, as opposed to the organization that encouraged such behavior.
As to your final point, I am somewhat divided on it. To a certain extent, the weak should be "weeded out." I don't mean in a Darwinian sense, but rather that weakness should not be tolerated when there are other options. People should know how and be able to take care of themselves. People that won't (not can't) take care of themselves don't really deserve protection, and they most certainly don't deserve to use Law Enforcement as their personal enforcers through SWATing or other malicious use of the police. Exceptions to this exist, such as the poor fellow on oxygen tanks mentioned a few examples back. Those people absolutely deserve protection, and ideally, the community would provide it. As a society though, we've take that personal, community protection and pushed it off to the State. Many churches for many years did the same with its obligations to care for the weak, and that's led to a lot of problems as well. I probably don't have a perfect answer for this, but I tend to agree with the line "government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem," even if I don't care with the guy who said it.
Its funny, but I tend to think that you guys have me pegged as being even more radical and uncompromising than I am. I have a tendency to push back if pushed, so if challenged on a point, I will try to figure a counter to your argument, even if it goes beyond what I originally was arguing for. We've seen that here quite a bit. At the very least it is forcing me to consider things from different angles. It has been an interesting intellectual exercise though, and I am enjoying the conversation, so let's keep it up.
If the popos aren't there the 300 other people on that road are calling them when you step out of the car with a firearm. This isn't exactly rural farm country. So handcuffs don't magically fall from the sky but a wireless phone signal magically sends your license plate via voice
If the community is providing protection SWATing can be used just as easily. "That guy over there did XYZ to me"!!!
A PI still costs money. Just because it's worth investigating doesn't mean I can afford to pay or afford to pay to completion. Some police investigations take years. Cold cases are gone back over. It's one thing if someone stole your kid's bicycle from the front yard and quite another when someone stole your kid from the front yard!
why you can't hunt off season on your property? Cause the animal you're hunting is finite and you're not the only one who would do it. And maybe you shoot enough to get by but the next guy has a larger property and sees a business opportunity. He can just shoot all the deer on his land and sell them to customers cheaper than store bought meat. As an example....in the late 19th century Pa had no restrictions and by beginning of the 20th there was only a few thousand deer left in the state. For comparison, roughly 100k are killed in auto collisions each year in Pa. Deer had to be imported into the state.
If the popos aren't there the 300 other people on that road are calling them when you step out of the car with a firearm. This isn't exactly rural farm country. So handcuffs don't magically fall from the sky but a wireless phone signal magically sends your license plate via voice
If the community is providing protection SWATing can be used just as easily. "That guy over there did XYZ to me"!!!
A PI still costs money. Just because it's worth investigating doesn't mean I can afford to pay or afford to pay to completion. Some police investigations take years. Cold cases are gone back over. It's one thing if someone stole your kid's bicycle from the front yard and quite another when someone stole your kid from the front yard!
why you can't hunt off season on your property? Cause the animal you're hunting is finite and you're not the only one who would do it. And maybe you shoot enough to get by but the next guy has a larger property and sees a business opportunity. He can just shoot all the deer on his land and sell them to customers cheaper than store bought meat. As an example....in the late 19th century Pa had no restrictions and by beginning of the 20th there was only a few thousand deer left in the state. For comparison, roughly 100k are killed in auto collisions each year in Pa. Deer had to be imported into the state.
Where do you live that you routinely hit deer and have 300 people within viewing distance and would actually care enough to call the cops on you shooting the deer you had just shot? And if the popo's are defunded as much as some here believe I'm advocating, why would calls of "he shot a deer?" be an issue?
In proper community security, that's doubtful. The idea would be to know who the players involved are, and then discuss the situation with them. Neighbors get to know each other after all, and are not likely to go in "guns blazing" when the town jackass calls security on the nicest guy in the neighborhood. Ideally, this is how police departments function, but they tend to be outsiders in most neighborhoods, and vehicle-borne operations do not lend themselves to getting to know your neighbors.
The kidnapping point is an interesting one. I'd be curious as to how many kidnapping cases are solved by local police departments vs how many are handled by State, Federal, or private investigators. Also be curious what the actual costs of these investigations would be, and what the plausibility of having a privatized police force keep an investigator for kidnapping cases on retainer would be. I'll admit it, I don't know on that would, definitely an interesting subject.
As for overhunting, let nature run its course. There are tons of areas in the country that are mandated no-hunting areas, from Federal lands to state and local parks. It's not like everyone will immediately rush out and kill every Bambi they see. Deer might disappear from some areas. That's the history of the world in a nutshell. Sucks to live in heavily populated areas; don't like it, live elsewhere. If someone is running a business killing deer, they're likely going to fall under other regulations, and like business in general, be regulated to death over it. A deer shot on my property is no different than a skunk or coyote, and nobody's business but my own.
EDIT: And then of course you get the nonsensical notion that somebody would build a business on selling deer meat that was big enough to wipe out the entire population of the area, and not have no plan for continuing this apparently lucrative business opportunity. And that the market would support their actions through this whole process. Sure, I guess, if Lex Luthor is running the show, but otherwise, I tend to think that the dent they would make in the population would be negligible, or they'd figure out a way to keep the money flowing long term, not one and done. But hey, I'm the crackpot.
EDIT AGAIN: I thought it was worth pointing out that we have gone so far down the rabbit hole that the conclusion to be reached is that without a militarized police force, deer would go extinct. Boy, it's been a wild ride.
BoringGuy45
06-12-20, 10:32
That's an incredibly stupid point, I'm sorry. By your logic, we should be seeing massive abuses of civil liberties today through any number of private businesses We do, every single day, and it gets written off as "they're a private business: their house, their rules". Why aren't salesmen beating down my door to put items in my living room then stealing money?Because they aren't private detectives or a private security force contracted with enforcing the law Or PIs breaking in and getting away with itBecause there are currently legal consequences if they do that. There won't be without a public police force. Also, this DOES happen. Bail enforcement agents do this all the time.? I guess trespassing and "Castle doctrines" don't apply?You bust down someone's door, you do risk getting shot. But that doesn't change the fact that private security, or ANY private enterprises, are legally bound to respect the Bill of Rights. The police are. And civil suits aren't a thing?Who would enforce them? Again, I'm not really proposing some sort of magical anarchist world view, I'm simply saying that there are alternatives to all-powerful police departments Really? Because it sounds like you ARE pushing for the abolishment of public police.. It's an easy "fix" if this were an issue by simply requiring any privatized police force to sign a contract with the government with requirements for protecting civil liberties/the Bill of Rights But again, who would enforce it? And what if a jurisdiction didn't want to have to respect the Bill of Rights?. And unlike with police departments now, if they break that "social contract" they can be fired, and replaced by another private company. At best now, a few bad officers may be removed, as opposed to the organization that encouraged such behavior.
I think you place too much faith in the private sector. Largely, it can be just as bad as the government if left unchecked. The Roman Republic was completely privatized in terms of services offered, including military and public safety. All services were provided through contracts with private companies. What happened? The richest citizens consolidated power and monopolized everything. Pretty soon, those "private" companies became the public companies which were funded by heavy taxes. I've worked in both the public and private sector. My point being that a completely neoliberal privatized world is not as glamorous as you might think it is. Like socialism, it was tired before, many times, and it also failed. Everything is about balance and mutual distrust. America was set up to be that balanced system.
I think you place too much faith in the private sector. Largely, it can be just as bad as the government if left unchecked. The Roman Republic was completely privatized in terms of services offered, including military and public safety. All services were provided through contracts with private companies. What happened? The richest citizens consolidated power and monopolized everything. Pretty soon, those "private" companies became the public companies which were funded by heavy taxes. I've worked in both the public and private sector. My point being that a completely neoliberal privatized world is not as glamorous as you might think it is. Like socialism, it was tired before, many times, and it also failed. Everything is about balance and mutual distrust. America was set up to be that balanced system.
I won't actually disagree with your post, though I tend to disagree with your additions/answers to my post. America was set up to be balanced, but now we've balanced it between seemingly all-powerful monopolies and an all-powerful government when it was supposed to be small government holding private enterprises in check. I know many libertarians hate him, but old "Trust Buster" Theodore Roosevelt had the right idea that trusts and monopolies were not beneficial to the public, and squashed the free market economy. Sadly, today we have allowed certain companies to achieve more or less the same thing, especially in the electronic realm.
BoringGuy45
06-13-20, 10:17
I won't actually disagree with your post, though I tend to disagree with your additions/answers to my post. America was set up to be balanced, but now we've balanced it between seemingly all-powerful monopolies and an all-powerful government when it was supposed to be small government holding private enterprises in check. I know many libertarians hate him, but old "Trust Buster" Theodore Roosevelt had the right idea that trusts and monopolies were not beneficial to the public, and squashed the free market economy. Sadly, today we have allowed certain companies to achieve more or less the same thing, especially in the electronic realm.
I'll agree with this. Big business and big government are two sides to the same coin. Actually, I'd pretty much say they're one in the same. The problem is that when a conservative talks about taking on massive corporations and breaking up monopolies to help the little guy, they're accused of being a socialist. The thing is though, the "private" sector really isn't private. We don't even really have a free market. We actually have socialism laundered through the 'private' sector. The economy is basically centrally planned; they just use non-government entities to do it.
Averageman
06-13-20, 11:20
You know, when you think of all the criminals and all the crimes going on 24/7 in the United States, you either get caught by sheer luck or absolute stupidity.
Factor in to that the number of interactions between Law Enforcement and Citizens, and then figure how many of these end up in handcuffs.
So now we have crime and arrests, so, how rarely does that involve a real beat down?
I would imagine when you look at those numbers you might find your statistical chances are near "0". Why? Because you have learned how to play the game and you intentionally limit your interaction with the Police.
You win at life !
Stupid people get caught and because they are stupid they resist when resistance is futile. They fight, they cuss and they spit and then they get a beating, when in reality, they did it to themselves.
Keep your secret stuff secret. Don't hang out with sketchy people. Keep your circle small and then smaller yet. Have a plan and a back-up plan and you can very likely commit all kinds of crimes and never get caught.
Dr. Bullseye
06-13-20, 11:54
Big Blue cities deserve what they get so their descent into hell ought to inspire everyone else and be a great campaign tool for Trump.
Averageman
06-13-20, 12:52
Big Blue cities deserve what they get so their descent into hell ought to inspire everyone else and be a great campaign tool for Trump.
Well here's the thing on all of that, Minneapolis and Minnesota have been run by Democrats since forever.
The Democratic Mayor gets the Police and the Police Chief he wants, for the most part the Governor is going to support his Democratic Mayors in his State.
So this is either an anomaly or it's systemic and I'm betting on "Its an anomaly". Not because of the Mayor or the Governor great leadership. but because of the Cops doing a pretty good job almost every day.
I do find it a terrible lack of leadership when this thing started rolling in Minneapolis and neither the Mayor or the Governor was willing to get out in front of an confront the situation immediately. It would appear to me that they were willing to sit with their thumbs up their third point of contact until they could come up for air to blame Trump.
Honestly, No One from the Democratic Party has come up with a workable resolution for these issues. They own it, they really do, but it is the "Tar Baby" (couldn't help that one) they refuse to touch.
This needs to be hammered out there to People.
I'll agree with this. Big business and big government are two sides to the same coin. Actually, I'd pretty much say they're one in the same. The problem is that when a conservative talks about taking on massive corporations and breaking up monopolies to help the little guy, they're accused of being a socialist. The thing is though, the "private" sector really isn't private. We don't even really have a free market. We actually have socialism laundered through the 'private' sector. The economy is basically centrally planned; they just use non-government entities to do it.
Very good points.
Coal Dragger
06-13-20, 15:06
Traffic stops: Why? They don't prevent traffic accidents and usually exist for revenue more than anything else. While they do generate revenue, they also keep dumbasses in check due to this thing called consequences , which prevents accidents
Investigations: Private detectives could make a comeback. Who can afford a PI for a full on drag out investigation?
Neighborhood kids using the street as a drag strip: either the community watch (if it exists) or you leave them be. Until a kid kills an innocent pedestrian or toddler
Potential shady character: Go look yourself, ask the community security, or leave him be. Sounds good on paper until that shady character either gets shot and was innocent or shoots someone because he was left alone, does his thing, cuz they are extra shady
Traffic stops for safety. That is laughable.
I work on call, so I’m often out late at night or in the very early morning just after midnight. I’ve been pulled over on average 1-2 times per year since 2007 when I started working for the RR. Always late at night, and I’ve never received a ticket. Fully 100% of the time these were fishing expeditions by idiot dirt bag revenue collectors. My local PD being the worst offender.
The last time the pretext was 50mph in a 40mph speed zone, except the posted speed limit is 55mph. I normally try to be polite with these shitbirds, but I made no attempt that last time. I requested that he go and show me where the speed was posted at 40mph. He literally threw my docs back at me and told me to slow down. Slow down to what? Even further below the speed limit?
The stop prior to that I followed a particularly shitty douchebag officer out to the highway from my neighborhood. This shit stick was doing all of 13mph in a 25mph zone, impeding traffic. Once we both got out to the highway he stops, let’s me by and pulls me over. For an improper lane change. There’s only two lanes, and I did not make a lane change. Told him to take his fishing expedition somewhere else and write me a ticket so I could go to court. He declined.
Calling these two idiots captain resulted in excuses from the PD. Screw them.
Safety my ass. Traffic enforcement is 99.9999995% revenue collections and harassment of motorists who fall into a target group of “suspicious” out of normal pattern road use.
Diamondback
06-13-20, 17:20
And Lankford chimes in joining the wrong side and failing 2A Comprehension: "some toys are not for prole civilians or cops."
https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/06/13/lankford-lots-of-military-equipment-that-should-be-prohibited-for-law-enforcement-use/
PracticalRifleman
06-13-20, 19:09
Traffic stops for safety. That is laughable.
I work on call, so I’m often out late at night or in the very early morning just after midnight. I’ve been pulled over on average 1-2 times per year since 2007 when I started working for the RR. Always late at night, and I’ve never received a ticket. Fully 100% of the time these were fishing expeditions by idiot dirt bag revenue collectors. My local PD being the worst offender.
The last time the pretext was 50mph in a 40mph speed zone, except the posted speed limit is 55mph. I normally try to be polite with these shitbirds, but I made no attempt that last time. I requested that he go and show me where the speed was posted at 40mph. He literally threw my docs back at me and told me to slow down. Slow down to what? Even further below the speed limit?
The stop prior to that I followed a particularly shitty douchebag officer out to the highway from my neighborhood. This shit stick was doing all of 13mph in a 25mph zone, impeding traffic. Once we both got out to the highway he stops, let’s me by and pulls me over. For an improper lane change. There’s only two lanes, and I did not make a lane change. Told him to take his fishing expedition somewhere else and write me a ticket so I could go to court. He declined.
Calling these two idiots captain resulted in excuses from the PD. Screw them.
Safety my ass. Traffic enforcement is 99.9999995% revenue collections and harassment of motorists who fall into a target group of “suspicious” out of normal pattern road use.
I literally got pulled over for 57mph in a 55 zone a few years ago. He then asked to search my truck. I told him, no. He told me to go to his car.
Then he implied I must be a criminal. I asked him if I was getting a citation or if I was under arrest, and if not I would be going. He said “it depends on what the drug dog finds”.
I told him unless he arrested me or wanted to write a ticket, I was leaving. I got out of the car and walked back to my truck while he was yelling I couldn’t do that. I told him, “why don’t you stop me?” and cited Rodriguez.
That particular state trooper lost his job somehow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Coal Dragger
06-13-20, 19:55
My local PD and sheriff’s office are staffed by guys I have grown to dislike so much that I wouldn’t willingly help them if they were in a bad spot.
Our local state trooper is also kind of a douchebag as far as I can tell. Our kids go to the same daycare so I see him occasionally, pretty much a tool-bag. He did write me a ticket once when he was posted on the other side of the state, which I don’t count as “local harassment/revenue collection” Sturgis was about to kick off that year and I was heading back from a vacation. He and his colleagues were ticketing everyone daring to exceed the 80mph speed limit, because 85mph is the end of the world! As far as I know the SD state troopers are still butthurt that the legislature and governor upped the speed limit. Screw those idiots, no one has to consult them to change the law.
When tax revenues decline, traffic enforcement increases. A lot of time and resources are now being expended on traffic ticket writing.
Here in this State, trying to get LE to investigate (or respond) to property crimes is a chore. Knew a guy who got in his car at Sam's Club and both tires on the passenger side were flattened by someone using a sharp blade. Went to management at the store to inquire about security cameras, and was told LE would have to come and review it. It took LE 1.5 hours to finally show up, then nothing was done. You get the impression that crime doesn't pay, but traffic violations do, and how dare you take a ticket writer away from his job.
You can't even get LE to show up timely to residential issues involving an armed person. The new mode of operation is any issue involving a gun, LE doesn't roll up to the house where it's happening, but they "stage" several blocks away. A recent incident in Las Vegas, New Mexico where a woman was banging on people's front doors, armed with a pistol, and screaming she was going to kill herself. Numerous 911 calls went in and Las Vegas PD "staged" two blocks away with kids in tactical gear and were jawboning about how this was going to be handled. A fire unit and ambulance were also "staged". By the time LE rolled up to the last location this woman was, it was 35 minutes later.
I guess this is safety for LE not rolling into an unknown, but if they're taking that long to "stage", the average citizen is on their own to handle life and death issues.
When tax revenues decline, traffic enforcement increases. A lot of time and resources are now being expended on traffic ticket writing.
Here in this State, trying to get LE to investigate (or respond) to property crimes is a chore. Knew a guy who got in his car at Sam's Club and both tires on the passenger side were flattened by someone using a sharp blade. Went to management at the store to inquire about security cameras, and was told LE would have to come and review it. It took LE 1.5 hours to finally show up, then nothing was done. You get the impression that crime doesn't pay, but traffic violations do, and how dare you take a ticket writer away from his job.
The only reason to call LE after theft or property damage is so you can get a police report for your insurance company.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.