View Full Version : Atlanta shooting: another officer fired
thepatriot2705
06-14-20, 00:29
A black male was fatally shot by cops after assaulting two cops, stealing a taser from them and then pointing taser at cops. The officers apparently shot him in the back as he was running away. (Some reports say he was pointing taser at cops as he was running).
In response protestors blocked the highway in the area and burned the WendyÂ’s where this happened. The police chief stepped down already and the officer was fired.
I feel bad for the men and women in blue. Even their leadership is failing them.
Cops are going to be handcuffed when it comes to doing their jobs and who knows how many will die because they fear bad press and donÂ’t respond accordingly.
Part of me wants every cop to turn in their badge and give these psychos what they want. They will be begging for help within minutes of no cops.
ItÂ’s a shame.
This could be a powder keg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRuWcgflaE
hotrodder636
06-14-20, 05:27
I don’t understand what the burning of Wendys has to do with anything. It’s not like Wendy’s told the cops to take whatever action they took. I just don’t understand the burning things, SMDH
Burning Wendy's will make it more difficult for the GBI to investigate the shooting incident.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-14-20, 07:01
These Cops did an incredible job, this shooting was 110% justified and reasonable. How in the world did they justify firing the officer? Burn the world down over this one? Cool, your protests have no legitimacy.
After the Ferguson riots, cops on the street saw a huge uptick in the resistance and decreased cooperation levels from suspects. It was as if people were being baited into this notion of fighting for your life if contacted by police. There was a feeling that this encouragement to resist was actually putting people of color in much higher risk of getting killed,,. Which is why many were touting the “just comply” mantra.
Why did that dude fight? Don’t know if the shooting was justified, but i don’t know if I would have rushed to my firearm in that circumstance. One on one, if a suspect obtains your taser, and is deploying it at you, it could incapacitate you, thus justifying moving to deadly force.. with two cops, it’s a stretch bro... especially when the guy is IDd already, and just running away. Boy, Paw Patrol is dead for sure now...
Just a quick aside on Paw Patrol...I for one will be happy to see it go.
It’s created by Canadians.
One of the perpetual villains is a bald eagle that steals stuff.
It has a very socialist slant to it.
Chase - the police dog - uses a drone to do his “security investigating.”
I was in the process of removing it from the kids’ playlist when we decided to cancel cable and Nickelodeon anyway. PP is junk and deserves to be cancelled though for not the reasons proposed by BLM.
PracticalRifleman
06-14-20, 07:50
I don’t understand what the burning of Wendys has to do with anything. It’s not like Wendy’s told the cops to take whatever action they took. I just don’t understand the burning things, SMDH
Because these people are animals that have no respect for property or human lives.
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PracticalRifleman
06-14-20, 07:52
These Cops did an incredible job, this shooting was 110% justified and reasonable. How in the world did they justify firing the officer? Burn the world down over this one? Cool, your protests have no legitimacy.
They never had legitimacy.
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I don’t understand what the burning of Wendys has to do with anything. It’s not like Wendy’s told the cops to take whatever action they took. I just don’t understand the burning things, SMDH
It has nothing to do with the officers and everything to do with criminals knowing they won't be prosecuted for arson and destruction. The people in these DemocRat cities are sh#&tting in their own bed. Businesses will not rebuild or develop there and taxpaying citizens will leave in droves.
PracticalRifleman
06-14-20, 07:53
It has nothing to do with the officers and everything to do with criminals knowing they won't be prosecuted for arson and destruction. The people in these DemocRat cities are sh#&tting in their own bed. Businesses will not rebuild or develop there and taxpaying citizens will leave in droves.
The sad part is the people leaving there will move to suburbs or smaller towns and being their liberal ideas with them and create more blue districts.
Almost as if this is done by design. Hmmmm.
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joedirt199
06-14-20, 08:29
The use of force continuim is not an equal one. You don't match people's level of resistence. You go a step up because we are not here to fight fair and risk losing. The fight is to win and win fast. He fought getting arrested for drunk driving and would have been in jail for a whopping hour or 2 waiting on a sober ride. Now he is a martyr for being a criminal. Guess its time to abolish prisons since they are full of innocent people and there is no funding for them anyways. Prisoners are taken better care of in prison than people in jail. I pick up guys from prison for court and they can't wait to get back to prison. Our pussy judges and prosecutors also run charges concurrently instead of consecutively so where is the deterrence to not commit multiple crimes. Just going to get 1 prison term for 5 charges of equal years running at the same time.
Being in the south Atlanta might turn out different. Parts of downtown might get burned and looted but even the hood rats know if they venture to far out, thats where people have guns.
Averageman
06-14-20, 10:49
The use of force continuim is not an equal one. You don't match people's level of resistence. You go a step up because we are not here to fight fair and risk losing. The fight is to win and win fast. He fought getting arrested for drunk driving and would have been in jail for a whopping hour or 2 waiting on a sober ride.
Someone needs to stand up and state the obvious and that would be "Don't be a Dummy."
If you're just a little better at this criminal job, you'll likely never be caught, but just like in any other line of work, you can't let your drugs and alcohol effect production. These guys get caught because they are stupid.
On top of getting caught, once your under arrest you decide to resist? You're wrestling two guys with guns and decide to grab a taser? You run like my Grandma and she just got a new hip last week, but you're "Running" for your freedom? WTF?
How about having some professional courtesy here? You're the Dummy that fell asleep in the drive through line. Take your medicine and go sit in the drunk tank tonight. You'll be alive tomorrow.
If you cannot obey the law, at least behave professionally.
After the Ferguson riots, cops on the street saw a huge uptick in the resistance and decreased cooperation levels from suspects. It was as if people were being baited into this notion of fighting for your life if contacted by police. There was a feeling that this encouragement to resist was actually putting people of color in much higher risk of getting killed,,. Which is why many were touting the “just comply” mantra.
Why did that dude fight? Don’t know if the shooting was justified, but i don’t know if I would have rushed to my firearm in that circumstance. One on one, if a suspect obtains your taser, and is deploying it at you, it could incapacitate you, thus justifying moving to deadly force.. with two cops, it’s a stretch bro... especially when the guy is IDd already, and just running away. Boy, Paw Patrol is dead for sure now...
Dude.... just no.
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...So that's one less place to eat when posted at University and Pryor.
...So that's one less place to eat when posted at University and Pryor.
I use to run that area with FedEx and I wouldn't want to be posted anywhere near there.
I'm not a Cop, never been in Law Enforcement except for the Sheriff's Posse involved with back country tracking of fugitives and rescue. I have been in combat, probably more than I would like to relate here. My first instinct in that Atlanta situation would be to not pull my sidearm and shoot the fleeing subject.
It was claimed he was legally intoxicated, but we didn't get a readout on the breathalyzer, at least in the video I saw. The subject seemed to be lucid and able to engage in friendly conversation prior to the scuffle during cuffing. Sometimes I wonder if a little different approach, different words used in conversation could result in a different outcome? I wasn't there nor am I able to get into the minds of the two Cops involved with this.
I'm not a Cop, never been in Law Enforcement except for the Sheriff's Posse involved with back country tracking of fugitives and rescue. I have been in combat, probably more than I would like to relate here. My first instinct in that Atlanta situation would be to not pull my sidearm and shoot the fleeing subject.
It was claimed he was legally intoxicated, but we didn't get a readout on the breathalyzer, at least in the video I saw. The subject seemed to be lucid and able to engage in friendly conversation prior to the scuffle during cuffing. Sometimes I wonder if a little different approach, different words used in conversation could result in a different outcome? I wasn't there nor am I able to get into the minds of the two Cops involved with this.
In the end all that matters is whether or not the officer who pulled the trigger was reasonable in his actions at the time of doing so given the circumstances. It’s not an issue of being a right or wrong call. It’s wholly individual to the person(s) involved.
That said potentially taking a taser dart to the face would be miserable. Nvm the myriad of other what if outcomes.
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I use to run that area with FedEx and I wouldn't want to be posted anywhere near there.
Beats being stuck in Buckhead.
I really hope the fired officer makes the City of Atlanta pay out their ass with the wrongful termination suit.
Coal Dragger
06-14-20, 15:41
I’m guessing he has a very good case.
In the end all that matters is whether or not the officer who pulled the trigger was reasonable in his actions at the time of doing so given the circumstances. It’s not an issue of being a right or wrong call. It’s wholly individual to the person(s) involved.
That said potentially taking a taser dart to the face would be miserable. Nvm the myriad of other what if outcomes.
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I looked at the wide shot of the video showing the action moving left to right. I am guessing the deceased person was shot in the back as he was being chased. The video is pretty clear on that. It would have been a different incident if the Black fellow turned and was approaching back towards the officer as a threat. It would have been different if there was a scuffle over the officer's service weapon. So was it reasonable to shoot the Black fellow in the back? Lots of questions in my mind on that.
In combat, things move quickly, and the opposing force gets taken out in any stance they choose to take. This wasn't a combat scenario, but possibly a situation of too much adrenaline in too short a period of time.
While on SWAT, I did 18 months as part of a drunk driver task force. A lot of people are very cool all the way through the process until it is time to get cuffed up. Then the fight starts.
The suspect fought the police, such is life, charges just got a lot more serious. Then he broke and ran,with the Taser he removed with force from one of the officers, charges just got a lot more serious. The suspect then fired the Taser at the officer, charges just got a lot more serious.
The officer then shot and killed the suspect. The issue will be was he justified in feeling a threat to his life or grievous bodily harm.
I don't know how you can really claim that, when 2 officers were there, and you have the ability to radio in more officers. Let's say the Taser connected with the officer and he took the ride and while down the suspect tried or did take his pistol, the second officer would be fully justified in using deadly force.
I looked at the wide shot of the video showing the action moving left to right. I am guessing the deceased person was shot in the back as he was being chased. The video is pretty clear on that. It would have been a different incident if the Black fellow turned and was approaching back towards the officer as a threat. It would have been different if there was a scuffle over the officer's service weapon. So was it reasonable to shoot the Black fellow in the back? Lots of questions in my mind on that.
In combat, things move quickly, and the opposing force gets taken out in any stance they choose to take. This wasn't a combat scenario, but possibly a situation of too much adrenaline in too short a period of time.
Insofar as the law and the 4th amendment cares shooting some in the back is irrelevant depending on the circumstances.
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joedirt199
06-14-20, 16:21
I looks like the closest guy got hit when he turned and shot the taser. He buckles up on a nearby car and quits chasing.
The sad part is the people leaving there will move to suburbs or smaller towns and being their liberal ideas with them and create more blue districts.
Almost as if this is done by design. Hmmmm.
Yep. Sadly this is true.
Have they released the blood alcohol content of the deceased man? He was going to be detained/arrested for public intox or DUI, so it will be interesting to see what could have been the outcome if he hadn't resisted. If the content was high, there is no way he could be allowed to leave and drive.
Have they released the blood alcohol content of the deceased man? He was going to be detained/arrested for public intox or DUI, so it will be interesting to see what could have been the outcome if he hadn't resisted. If the content was high, there is no way he could be allowed to leave and drive.
Yes, 0.108
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-police-body-camera-footage-released-wendys-shooting/WYIWWDVJ6JG5BCYK7CIB5D4YZI/
Officer Rolfe administers the breathalyzer test, which registered a blood-alcohol level of .108%, slightly above the legal limit of .08%.
Drunk driving is nothing new. My friends who are police officers and sheriff deputies around a major university said they usually have full jail house after a football game. They all get to go home the next morning, I never asked how much were the bails or how they were released. They never had to seriously fight, tased or shoot those college students, white and black.
I think if the guy didn't put up a fight, he would have been let go the next morning. BTW, all the jibber jabber about his girl friend, etc., this evening his wife was on TV saying how horrible her husband's death was. He was out with his girlfriend, drunk as a skunk and the wife was acting how badly she missed him. He was drunk out of his mind while supposedly celebrating his kid's birthday. Great dad. He will be martyred again. Burn Atlanta burn.
In response to an earlier post: Midtown is lost, so unreasonably progressive it's no longer considered part of Georgia. You venture further north than Garden Hills then it's on. Chad and Betty sacrificed too much to get that prime real estate. You get outside of the perimeter in the funnel between i-85 and i-75, which includes one of the wealthiest zip codes in the country, then it's a whole nother ball game.
Regardless, cop shot him in the back while he was running away, even if the taser did land, which it didn't.
At the end of the day, regular beat cops are vastly under trained, under prepared, and under qualified to undertake the job they've ACTIVELY sought out.
I think that the prosecutor and Grand Jury will take the fact that there were two officers on scene when the shooting occurred into consideration and that fact will weigh heavily on the outcome.
Yes, 0.108
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-police-body-camera-footage-released-wendys-shooting/WYIWWDVJ6JG5BCYK7CIB5D4YZI/
Officer Rolfe administers the breathalyzer test, which registered a blood-alcohol level of .108%, slightly above the legal limit of .08%.
Drunk driving is nothing new. My friends who are police officers and sheriff deputies around a major university said they usually have full jail house after a football game. They all get to go home the next morning, I never asked how much were the bails or how they were released. They never had to seriously fight, tased or shoot those college students, white and black.
I think if the guy didn't put up a fight, he would have been let go the next morning. BTW, all the jibber jabber about his girl friend, etc., this evening his wife was on TV saying how horrible her husband's death was. He was out with his girlfriend, drunk as a skunk and the wife was acting how badly she missed him. He was drunk out of his mind while supposedly celebrating his kid's birthday. Great dad. He will be martyred again. Burn Atlanta burn.
Here in New Mexico, .08% gets you a mandatory 28 days in jail. It's a serious issue here, but with little long term enforcement due to the democrat controlled legislature. It's not uncommon for people to be stopped on their 10th or 12th DUI, and driving without a license, insurance, registration. State law enforcement cannot enforce our laws on the numerous Native Reservations because they are Federal Trust Land. The Indians get nabbed coming off or heading to The Rez.
Dude.... just no.
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Please explain?
I’m not excoriating the officers, as I wasn’t there and don’t know all the facts. But in today’s world, we are NOT judged on what we CAN do, but what we SHOULD do. Sad reality. I have to teach things to academy students all the time, that I know they can do legally, but will get killed in the court of public opinion should they chose that course of action. There’s a few sayings we teach people “In Agency”... [Lawful, but Awful] and [Could I? Should I?].
In this Atlanta situation, I personally believe the driver Bears a ton of responsibility for fighting, and escalating the incident well beyond what it needs to be. However. As an officer, ask yourself if deadly force was “necessary?“, because everyone else will be asking. Was there another “better” course of action? The answer becomes much clearer if there’s only one officer, or if the suspect was coming towards (not away from) the officer. Playing devils advocate, What would be the harm (compared to the results of using deadly force), if they let the guy flee on foot? We have his car, we have him ID’d.
So I’ll ask again for clarification to the “Dude... just no” comment? I’m not sold on this incident one way or the other, yet. Convince me. But please understand I teach use of force. and routinely do use of force reviews at work. So saying “Dude no” isn’t a valid argument ;)
I think I've come to the conclusion it was a bad shoot, when there were other alternatives, including letting the guy run, at least until Judge Fido was on-scene to end the chase while getting in a few nibbles
Even as an average citizen, if I shoot someone in the back (twice) while claiming self-defense, my credibility takes a dive even if I claim it was done while fearing for my life. The cop on the street should be held to at least the same standard, and if professionally trained, perhaps a higher standard.
I'm not saying this is what happened here, but there are times that shooting at someone moving away from you who also happens to be pointing a gun back at you results in you shooting them in the back. There is also reaction time where you see someone point a gun at you but by the time your brain processes and tells your finger to fire and you actually do, the person could already be facing away from you given a dynamic situation.
Use of force experts have presentations on this.
If someone already fighting me took my TASER and pointed it back at me, shooting him would be high on my list of options to consider...
Dennis.
I’m guessing he has a very good case.
Why do you think that?
Here is what I see.
1) TASER and law enforcement in general have taken great pains to establish the TASER as a safe tool when used properly. I've a couple of rides as part of re-certification as an instructor, so, yeah, I believe it is a safe and effective tool. The major problem I see is the same problem that impacts many law enforcement issues - lack of training.
2) When deployed properly the TASER is incapacitating. If the officer is incapacitated AND has no backup immediately available, they would be at the mercy of the assailant, so in that case, no backup immediately available, the officer would, no doubt be justified in using lethal force IF the subject was within the operational envelope of the TASER.
3) X26 TASER cartridges had either 15, 21, or 25 feet of wire, depending on cartridge type, x2's had 25 foot cartridges, I believe the new TASER 7 also has 25 feet cartridges. The officer should no this, and in the case of a foot pursuit be able to stay 25 foot back until he gets help.
4) The TASER is designed to be fired upright. Simply explained, the top probe comes out line of sight, the bottom probe fires at a slight downward angle, in order to have sufficient spread to achieve neuro- musclular disruption. It takes two probes in contact in order to have a complete circuit, one probe you get nothing. If you cant the TASER at all you are likely to miss with the bottom probe. Again the officer should know this.
So, to be most critical, in this case the officer knew he had backup, could have stayed far enough back that the probes wouldn't have reached him, and should have known that the likelihood of both probes hitting him was small. Keeping all this in mind, the officer should have known he didn't need to fire.
Being realistic, this was a rapidly evolving situation, where the officer had to make a split-second decision. The courts have recognized this and have said that an officer's action is not to be judged with 20/20 hindsight, but rather from the perspective of a reasonable officer, in the same situation, having the same knowledge and training as the officer in question had. (Graham v. Connor)
So what do you think? Does he have a good case?
titsonritz
06-15-20, 02:32
Should we give suspects carte blanche to run away from police without fear of being shot? I don't think so.
That said, I'd think two cops would be able to handle one drunk that has no clue where he is or what he drank without shooting him in the back and I'm all for cops shooting a KNOWN threat in back of the head as he attempt to flee. This guy was drunk he didn't just shoot up a church or whatever and was running from the scene, seems to me there would be a distinction.
Averageman
06-15-20, 03:36
Should we give suspects carte blanche to run away from police without fear of being shot? I don't think so.
That said, I'd think two cops would be able to handle one drunk that has no clue where he is or what he drank without shooting him in the back and I'm all for cops shooting a KNOWN threat in back of the head as he attempt to flee. This guy was drunk he didn't just shoot up a church or whatever and was running from the scene, seems to me there would be a distinction.
I think Cops are going to extremes to avoid looking like they will fight back.
I kept hoping one of these two Cops would throw a closed fist to end this comical melee or at least brush his hair with a MagLight,
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-15-20, 04:12
Should we give suspects carte blanche to run away from police without fear of being shot? I don't think so.
That said, I'd think two cops would be able to handle one drunk that has no clue where he is or what he drank without shooting him in the back and I'm all for cops shooting a KNOWN threat in back of the head as he attempt to flee. This guy was drunk he didn't just shoot up a church or whatever and was running from the scene, seems to me there would be a distinction.
He was JUST drunk and running from the scene? Or was he drunk, just actively assaulted officers, stole a weapon from them, pointed it at them, and fired it at them? Seems to be a difference in the narrative there...
Business_Casual
06-15-20, 06:27
If you think the left’s goal is to divide us; after reading this thread you would conclude they have succeeded admirably.
Adrenaline_6
06-15-20, 07:41
He was JUST drunk and running from the scene? Or was he drunk, just actively assaulted officers, stole a weapon from them, pointed it at them, and fired it at them? Seems to be a difference in the narrative there...
Exactly. It seems that most people ignore the simple fact, that if he didn't drive drunk and fall asleep in a drive thru, resist arrest, fight with the officers actually striking them, steal a taser, run away, then aim and fire the taser at an officer, (all criminal offences btw), he would be alive. He played multiple stupid games and won the ultimate stupid prize because of it. I have absolute zero pity for his stupid ass. I am getting pretty tired of the "woe is me" criminal in today's culture.
He was just expressing himself that he won’t be held down by the man and stand for this injustice any longer. I mean, I thought this was America. I don’t understand why you can’t drive drunk, pass out in the drive-through, fight with police officers, steal a taser, shoot said taser at police officer, and it’s such a big deal.
A few well-placed strikes to the head probably would’ve sucked a lot of fight out of that gentleman but that would’ve looked bad. Two white police officers beating unarmed black man would’ve been the headline instead. I hope Atlanta PD’s new response to these types of calls will be to knock on the glass wake the drunk up and then send him down the road.It is becoming increasingly clear that most of society doesn’t want please departments to do actually any policing.
BoringGuy45
06-15-20, 08:09
They could have, you know, fired a warning shot, or tried to shoot the taser out of his hand, or maybe shoot him in the leg...:rolleyes:
PracticalRifleman
06-15-20, 08:38
I think I've come to the conclusion it was a bad shoot, when there were other alternatives, including letting the guy run, at least until Judge Fido was on-scene to end the chase while getting in a few nibbles
Even as an average citizen, if I shoot someone in the back (twice) while claiming self-defense, my credibility takes a dive even if I claim it was done while fearing for my life. The cop on the street should be held to at least the same standard, and if professionally trained, perhaps a higher standard.
You do not have the duty to peruse as a civilian. You merely have the legal cover to defend yourself, and in some cases, you don’t have a duty to retreat.
It’s also obvious that one can still be a threat while “running away”, ie shooting while running away. I think it is important to keep that in mind. Stealing a weapon is a big deal.
Now whether or not lethal force was justified will be another thing, but we must dismiss the “shot in the back” narrative as an absolute “unjustified use of force” argument.
Perhaps they knew who the man was from vehicle license, registration, etc. (assuming the car was his). It may have been more prudent to arrest him in the morning providing there was no policy requiring them to retrieve the stolen weapon. The taser being something incapacitating creates potentially lethal situations for the officer and/or the public.
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teufelhund1918
06-15-20, 08:41
They could have, you know, fired a warning shot, or tried to shoot the taser out of his hand, or maybe shoot him in the leg...:rolleyes:
fired a warning shot, or tried to shoot the taser out of his hand ...in a populated area with an errant round striking an innocent bystander... lawsuiits.. lose your job, etc...
maybe shoot him in the leg... intentional maiming. I could see this. Why did you shoot him in the leg instead of using lethal force if he was such a threat?
Plain fact of the matter is that this fella resisted arrest, violently assaulted not one, but two officers, stole one of their tasers, fled the scene, then turned on them with it pointed in their direction and fired it. Not only that, if he turned and fired, who says that the officers would have to assume that it was the taser and not a weapon he had scurried on himself. Sounded like some pretty loud pops from it. IMHO, once he assaulted the officers like he did, he took responsibility for the results of his actions.
Or hold back and get some more man power. They have his car. They have his ID. Nothing shown remotely suggested they needed to shoot him.
Our police are under trained, under equipped, and often under qualified to perform. The whole defund the police movement is ironic as it will make results worse, but we also need less of this sort of thing. DUI at a Wendy's and passing funny money aren't death sentence offenses. The media gin's up the attention despite the fact that we know these are a relative rarity in terms of numbers, but local government and local departments have done a crappy job policing their own when this has reared its head and now it's time to pay the piper.
PracticalRifleman
06-15-20, 08:47
Or hold back and get some more man power. They have his car. They have his ID. Nothing shown remotely suggested they needed to shoot him.
Our police are under trained, under equipped, and often under qualified to perform. The whole defund the police movement is ironic as it will make results worse, but we also need less of this sort of thing. DUI at a Wendy's and passing funny money aren't death sentence offenses. The media gin's up the attention despite the fact that we know these are a relative rarity in terms of numbers, but local government and local departments have done a crappy job policing their own when this has reared its head and now it's time to pay the piper.
We do need less of this sort of thing.
We need less crappy people that assault the police. We need less criminals.
We need more personal responsibility.
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Devil Dog, Boring Guy was being sarcastic.
Exactly. It seems that most people ignore the simple fact, that if he didn't drive drunk and fall asleep in a drive thru, resist arrest, fight with the officers actually striking them, steal a taser, run away, then aim and fire the taser at an officer, (all criminal offences btw), he would be alive. He played multiple stupid games and won the ultimate stupid prize because of it. I have absolute zero pity for his stupid ass. I am getting pretty tired of the "woe is me" criminal in today's culture.
^On this we can agree. Eff that guy. Sometimes when you are that profoundly stupid, you don’t grow old and wise. You die.
teufelhund1918
06-15-20, 08:54
Or hold back and get some more man power. They have his car. They have his ID. Nothing shown remotely suggested they needed to shoot him.
Our police are under trained, under equipped, and often under qualified to perform. The whole defund the police movement is ironic as it will make results worse, but we also need less of this sort of thing. DUI at a Wendy's and passing funny money aren't death sentence offenses. The media gin's up the attention despite the fact that we know these are a relative rarity in terms of numbers, but local government and local departments have done a crappy job policing their own when this has reared its head and now it's time to pay the piper.
1168, yea, missed the little sarcastic face thingy at the end of the statement, but there are those folks out there that would say this though. Been there more than I can care to imagine....
I agree that training sucks on so many levels for LEOs. Again, this was a DUI... it was the offender that catapulted into resisting arrest, assault, fleeing and other things that resulted in his demise. That is his responsibility. It's easy to go back and second guess decisions once it is done. You can train for a million scenarios with a million outcomes, but there will always be something new thrown into the mix. But these officers had to make a decision in a matter of seconds. Can't wait to see the tox screen on this. I find it hard to believe that you pass out with a BAC of .108. Some other goodies involved I imagine. Perhaps we as a society need to go and critique this part of societies permissive attitude towards the use of illicit drugs as a starting point.
Not to sound course, these issues are being driven by another agenda. That is the bigger real issue in this country now.
Eff that guy. Sometimes when you are that profoundly stupid, you don’t grow old and wise. You die.
Evolution at work. I have no problem with it.
Arrests will start plummeting nationwide like it did in Baltimore and crime will invariably go up. The new SOP for any use of force will be to immediately fire the officer and then charge him with a felony to placate the mindless masses. What officer will want to conduct a DUI stop or confront a burglar if there is any chance of force having to be used which could land them in jail?
Averageman
06-15-20, 10:14
If you are going to celebrate a criminal with protests, riots and maybe a cool mural, why do this for the criminal failures? Surely you've got more successful criminals to look up to than some passed out Muppet in a drive through.
If the picture for young black, inner city men becomes "victim of the system." how will they ever rise above that? For the most part the tools just aren't there in the culture or the community to be successful.
Name five black guys that aren't a comedian, actor, athlete or criminal?
See how that works?
This billboard used to be just down the road, when you crossed the tracks and University turns in to Hank Aaron.
https://i.imgur.com/6O4YAtC.jpg
1168, yea, missed the little sarcastic face thingy at the end of the statement, but there are those folks out there that would say this though. Been there more than I can care to imagine....
I agree that training sucks on so many levels for LEOs. Again, this was a DUI... it was the offender that catapulted into resisting arrest, assault, fleeing and other things that resulted in his demise. That is his responsibility. It's easy to go back and second guess decisions once it is done. You can train for a million scenarios with a million outcomes, but there will always be something new thrown into the mix. But these officers had to make a decision in a matter of seconds. Can't wait to see the tox screen on this. I find it hard to believe that you pass out with a BAC of .108. Some other goodies involved I imagine. Perhaps we as a society need to go and critique this part of societies permissive attitude towards the use of illicit drugs as a starting point.
Not to sound course, these issues are being driven by another agenda. That is the bigger real issue in this country now.
You make an interesting point about the possibility of drugs. I’ve worked lots of (reported)ODs in which the patient was DRIVING A FREAKING CAR WITH HIS/HER KIDS AND FAMILY IN IT. Usually the events fold in one of two ways:
Option 1) Bystander sees vehicle in the trees or ditch, calls 911, LE, EMS, Fire get dispatched simultaneously, and Fire usually shows up first and discovers one or more blue person, ranging from uninjured to mangled. This is usually a heroin OD, and 99% the time is pretty uneventful from a LE perspective.
Option 2) Bystander sees someone passed out behind the wheel somewhere and calls 911. A McDonald’s drive thru, for example. Or a gas station. Or a convenience store in the middle of nowhere. Dispatch sends either cops or EMS for an “unknown problem”. Which they send is pretty much a coinflip. EMS usually calls for LE right away, because WTF is an “unknown problem” in a dark parking lot? If cops are dispatched first, they usually knock on the window, then call EMS to “check them out” (ugh) or for an overdose. These situations are not always opioids. Maybe a quarter of them. And maybe a quarter of people are legit really tired and drug free. Those categories usually are harmless to responders, who don’t know that for sure yet. The other roughly half of them are boozed up and frequently on other drugs such as benzos. Many of them have developed a pattern of being shit birds and may already have warrants. When extreme caution is not used, I would guess that close to 10% of these cases go sideways. Someone suddenly produces a weapon, attacks someone with a vehicle, or gets out fighting or takes off running.
Just some sidebar stuff to explain tensions when knocking on windows. Regardless of what uniform I’m wearing, I use extreme caution with these.
If you are going to celebrate a criminal with protests, riots and maybe a cool mural, why do this for the criminal failures? Surely you've got more successful criminals to look up to than some passed out Muppet in a drive through.
If the picture for young black, inner city men becomes "victim of the system." how will they ever rise above that? For the most part the tools just aren't there in the culture or the community to be successful.
Name five black guys that aren't a comedian, actor, athlete or criminal?
See how that works?
I know of a former US President, and some high level Military leaders. Oh, and some cabinet members. And an astrophysicist. Of course theres also a few I could name that aren’t famous.
I know of a former US President, and some high level Military leaders. Oh, and some cabinet members. And an astrophysicist. Of course theres also a few I could name that aren’t famous.Terrible test. Add politician as a disqualifier and most cant name 5 white people either.
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Life's a Hillary
06-15-20, 11:09
Should we give suspects carte blanche to run away from police without fear of being shot? I don't think so.
That said, I'd think two cops would be able to handle one drunk that has no clue where he is or what he drank without shooting him in the back and I'm all for cops shooting a KNOWN threat in back of the head as he attempt to flee. This guy was drunk he didn't just shoot up a church or whatever and was running from the scene, seems to me there would be a distinction.
It depends on the situation, if we are talking about a dangerous person that poses a risk to the community then sure. If we are talking about some idiot who got drunk and fell asleep in his car and then got in a scuffle with the cops, the cops have his car, know who he is, and can put out a warrant for his arrest then no, they should not shoot the man when he is running away. Was the perp in the wrong, yes, that much is clear. Did he need to lose his life? Absolutely not. Last I checked assaulting an officer isn't punished by death and if lethal force was used here to protect the officer's life is very much up for debate here and I would say it was unnecessary but I'm also sitting in an office chair being able to make that call not in the moment.
I'm not an expert on this stuff so I won't sit here and talk like I am coming from a position of authority or anything but in my opinion, lethal force should only be used when absolutely necessary and this situation doesn't call for that. I don't envy the cops in that situation, I don't envy any cops these days, but something needs to change be it training, who is hired in the first place, or whatever it is that smarter people than me can figure out.
teufelhund1918
06-15-20, 11:31
You make an interesting point about the possibility of drugs. I’ve worked lots of (reported)ODs in which the patient was DRIVING A FREAKING CAR WITH HIS/HER KIDS AND FAMILY IN IT. Usually the events fold in one of two ways:
Option 1) Bystander sees vehicle in the trees or ditch, calls 911, LE, EMS, Fire get dispatched simultaneously, and Fire usually shows up first and discovers one or more blue person, ranging from uninjured to mangled. This is usually a heroin OD, and 99% the time is pretty uneventful from a LE perspective.
Option 2) Bystander sees someone passed out behind the wheel somewhere and calls 911. A McDonald’s drive thru, for example. Or a gas station. Or a convenience store in the middle of nowhere. Dispatch sends either cops or EMS for an “unknown problem”. Which they send is pretty much a coinflip. EMS usually calls for LE right away, because WTF is an “unknown problem” in a dark parking lot? If cops are dispatched first, they usually knock on the window, then call EMS to “check them out” (ugh) or for an overdose. These situations are not always opioids. Maybe a quarter of them. And maybe a quarter of people are legit really tired and drug free. Those categories usually are harmless to responders, who don’t know that for sure yet. The other roughly half of them are boozed up and frequently on other drugs such as benzos. Many of them have developed a pattern of being shit birds and may already have warrants. When extreme caution is not used, I would guess that close to 10% of these cases go sideways. Someone suddenly produces a weapon, attacks someone with a vehicle, or gets out fighting or takes off running.
Just some sidebar stuff to explain tensions when knocking on windows. Regardless of what uniform I’m wearing, I use extreme caution with these.
I've got 17 years working in a high security pen. I've seen 1,000's of inmates pass through here. Many, many, many of them were/are the bigger city hardcore drug addicted gang bangers of all races, creeds and colors. I might be a little prejudicial when I say this... and not in the color sense... but from talking, seeing and listening to them, that access to cheap drugs of all types is as easy as going to the convenience store and buying a bottle of water. It seems to me that use and addiction to them is very much the normal anymore in these areas. It's more than just the drugs and alcohol that is the problem. The "family" unit has been destroyed and is non existent. "Morality" in the old fashioned sense is no longer respected. A lot of the people I talk to have brothers and sisters who's mothers and fathers aren't the same. One fella I talked to had 19 brothers and sisters he counted with most having neither the same father or mother. It is common to have multiple family members in the same prison together. As hard as it is, I do care about the subject. My religious belief is that all people regardless are redeemable. It really is sad how broken the communities are.
I'm in the camp that I think we've taken away tools and training from officers and only left them with hammers. No knock warrants, escalation of force to lethal accepted even at lower levels. I don't blame officers as much as I blame politicians and unions. Officers need to self police their ranks and the brass and suits need to step up provide leadership and support, not lip service.
Locally the two that stand out in my mind, are the Kelly Thomas murder at the hands of Fullerton Police and then no firings or even charges against the LAPD officers who lit up those two women delivering news papers during the Christian Dorner manhunt. Charlie Beck and the LAPD (aka LA tax payers) got them a new truck, but seriously, WTF? That was right out of the streets of Baghdad.
the Kelly Thomas murder at the hands of Fullerton Police
I agree that was an outrage. As was the paper truck debacle, thank goodness no one was killed in that one.
I agree that was an outrage. As was the paper truck debacle, thank goodness no one was killed in that one.
There was a similar case in Houston (I think) that actually kinda combines Kelly Thomas and George Floyd. Mental ill guy on drugs calls in for help, officers knee on his back and he suffocated. Laughing at him while they did it. It's a cultural issue that needs to be adjusted. There were National Guard troops uneasy about use of force on American soil. I would prefer it if law enforcement had similar reservations. LAPD and LASD often refer to themselves as the biggest gang on the street. They create their own bad PR.
titsonritz
06-15-20, 12:50
There was a similar case in Houston (I think) that actually kinda combines Kelly Thomas and George Floyd. Mental ill guy on drugs calls in for help, officers knee on his back and he suffocated. Laughing at him while they did it. It's a cultural issue that needs to be adjusted. There were National Guard troops uneasy about use of force on American soil. I would prefer it if law enforcement had similar reservations. LAPD and LASD often refer to themselves as the biggest gang on the street. They create their own bad PR.
Tony Timpa, Dallas.
BoringGuy45
06-15-20, 13:28
1168, yea, missed the little sarcastic face thingy at the end of the statement, but there are those folks out there that would say this though. Been there more than I can care to imagine....
I agree that training sucks on so many levels for LEOs. Again, this was a DUI... it was the offender that catapulted into resisting arrest, assault, fleeing and other things that resulted in his demise. That is his responsibility. It's easy to go back and second guess decisions once it is done. You can train for a million scenarios with a million outcomes, but there will always be something new thrown into the mix. But these officers had to make a decision in a matter of seconds. Can't wait to see the tox screen on this. I find it hard to believe that you pass out with a BAC of .108. Some other goodies involved I imagine. Perhaps we as a society need to go and critique this part of societies permissive attitude towards the use of illicit drugs as a starting point.
Not to sound course, these issues are being driven by another agenda. That is the bigger real issue in this country now.
Yeah, I was being very sarcastic, but you saw that. And yes, even well meaning people ask those questions in innocence. I have actually changed minds when I explained why you NEVER fire a warning shot, why shooting a gun out of someone's hands just a movie stunt, and shooting someone in an extremity can still be lethal or cause permanent damage.
And you're absolutely right about training being substandard for LEOs. When I hit the streets, I was woefully unprepared. I had 780 hours of academy training, only 72 hours were dedicated to firearms training, and about 40 hours were dedicated defensive tactics and mechanics of arrest. The VAST majority of those trainings were classroom sessions; all firearms training was at stationary targets; no practical "gun fighting" training whatsoever. We were actually told that we should take advanced firearms and street survival training, but that it would be at our own expense because neither the state, nor any of our departments, would ever pay for it. Training in conflict resolution and deescalation? None. Car stops? Four hours of classroom, about FIFTEEN MINUTES of total practice. There needs to a be a HUGE reevaluation of police training. Cops are doing what they can to survive, but they are mostly hitting the streets unprepared.
Are we just assuming the cop knows it's a taser being fired at him?
Also, assuming that someone who violently overreacts to a minor arrest is not a threat to the public seems problematic. It is an absolute lie to equate his danger to the public with the initial reason for contact after fighting two cops.
Averageman
06-15-20, 16:37
Or hold back and get some more man power. They have his car. They have his ID. Nothing shown remotely suggested they needed to shoot him.
Our police are under trained, under equipped, and often under qualified to perform. The whole defund the police movement is ironic as it will make results worse, but we also need less of this sort of thing. DUI at a Wendy's and passing funny money aren't death sentence offenses. The media gin's up the attention despite the fact that we know these are a relative rarity in terms of numbers, but local government and local departments have done a crappy job policing their own when this has reared its head and now it's time to pay the piper.
You don't get to drive drunk, pass out at Wendy's drive through or fight Cops, it really is that easy. If your bad decisions start mounting up and suddenly the cuffs are going on and there are two Cops processing the arrest, your bad decision meter should be about pegged. It's not the time to fight, because someone is likely to die.
Nothing that Cop did or said according to the video was meant to offend, or escalate the situation or cause the arrest to turn in to a brawl.
Even fighting this guy the Police appeared to take it easy on him, using just enough force to handcuff him instead of incapacitate him. When that goes sideways, he grabs a weapon. (I'm not at all sure the second Cop had any idea that the gun being aimed was a tazer and not a service weapon.)
So when folks bitch about Cops and violence, when does someone get real and do a PSA called "Hey, Black Men, let's don't be a F'ing Dummy?
You know I listened to twenty minutes of Dave Chapel talk about Police Violence against Blacks, but if he really wanted to be effective in preventing this needless death, he would make "Don't be a F'ing Dummy." Maybe riff for twenty minutes on how not to get killed when being arrested? Or maybe even a power point flow chart on the decision making process to stay alive.
You simply cannot remove biological fathers from a home with boys in it and expect them to grow up with any respect for rules, laws or authority. Now that we have seen this "Dad doesn't live with us" cross cultures and decades, we have a increase in violence.
I don't have a PHD, but I've been alive almost 60 years now and I watched it happen.
You don't get to drive drunk, pass out at Wendy's drive through or fight Cops, it really is that easy. If your bad decisions start mounting up and suddenly the cuffs are going on and there are two Cops processing the arrest, your bad decision meter should be about pegged. It's not the time to fight, because someone is likely to die.
Nothing that Cop did or said according to the video was meant to offend, or escalate the situation or cause the arrest to turn in to a brawl.
Even fighting this guy the Police appeared to take it easy on him, using just enough force to handcuff him instead of incapacitate him. When that goes sideways, he grabs a weapon. (I'm not at all sure the second Cop had any idea that the gun being aimed was a tazer and not a service weapon.)
So when folks bitch about Cops and violence, when does someone get real and do a PSA called "Hey, Black Men, let's don't be a F'ing Dummy?
You know I listened to twenty minutes of Dave Chapel talk about Police Violence against Blacks, but if he really wanted to be effective in preventing this needless death, he would make "Don't be a F'ing Dummy." Maybe riff for twenty minutes on how not to get killed when being arrested? Or maybe even a power point flow chart on the decision making process to stay alive.
You simply cannot remove biological fathers from a home with boys in it and expect them to grow up with any respect for rules, laws or authority. Now that we have seen this "Dad doesn't live with us" cross cultures and decades, we have a increase in violence.
I don't have a PHD, but I've been alive almost 60 years now and I watched it happen.
Chris Rock summed it up. I think this video is almost 20 years old.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OEvMc-K8XHY
Are we just assuming the cop knows it's a taser being fired at him?
The man was patted down in one video I saw. Unknown if it was the officer who shot him. While we can't be absolutely sure, it would seem to me that could be a possibility, since, if I'm straight on what happened, the officer who shot the guy wasn't the officer who had his TASER taken.
Also, assuming that someone who violently overreacts to a minor arrest is not a threat to the public seems problematic. It is an absolute lie to equate his danger to the public with the initial reason for contact after fighting two cops.
The standard to use lethal force in defense of self or others is that you, or another, are faced with a face likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
The simplest explanation of the standard to seize someone by use of lethal force to protect the public is: 1) probable cause to believe they have committed a felony involving threatened or actual death or great bodily harm; 2) probable cause to believe they will be a continued threat of death or great bodily harm, unless arrested without delay.
Alcohol impaired subjects are dangerous because of the effect alcohol has on most people - it lowers their inhibitions, it increases their willingness to engage in risky behavior, it increases the tendency for aggressive behavior in most folks.
For those reasons officers should never relax when handling drunks.
These Cops did an incredible job, this shooting was 110% justified and reasonable. How in the world did they justify firing the officer? Burn the world down over this one? Cool, your protests have no legitimacy.
I really hope the fired officer makes the City of Atlanta pay out their ass with the wrongful termination suit.
Officer is not getting his job back, and is likely going to prison. This is the reality of life today. They guy could have been 5 feet from hitting the switch on an A-bomb and the story will be cops shot unarmed man in back. GUILTY. Next.
Anyone who carries a gun needs to understand the rules in place today are not the same as 10 years ago even though no laws have changed.
A black sheriff's view is quite different from Mayor's Bottoms.
https://www.augustachronicle.com/news/20200615/burke-county-sheriff-believes-use-of-force-in-atlanta-shooting-justified?fbclid=IwAR2cMVsaiAp4EYOuNFG9XSZFtESkrgYIhwhdPRmi9mbcze0GT1wwpAJhYc0
The standard to use lethal force in defense of self or others is that you, or another, are faced with a face likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
Sorry if I was unclear. I was rebutting the absurd idea that they should have "de-escalated" by not chasing the "just a DUI" suspect.
Sorry if I was unclear. I was rebutting the absurd idea that they should have "de-escalated" by not chasing the "just a DUI" suspect.
Proper police actions can always involve escalation or disengagement as appropriate. I do t know,that I’d have disengaged here, but escalating to deadly force...? Not so sure.
Here’s the litmus I’d use... was deadly force necessary Here? Not trying to be coy, but honest answers... was it necessary? I’m not talking justified, because we know that even if legally justified, it doesn’t always make it the best action.
So, was it necessary to deploy deadly force on a guy you’d already ID, who was running away from his car, away from you, who stole your taser and was discharging it at you while running away? While your partner is close behind you as backup? Was it necessary? Did you need to use deadly force, and why? Articulate why it was necessary, and if you can give solid reasons why it was absolutely necessary, that officer will be ok.
You’ll need to think through all the variables. Does that suspect have the means to deliver death or great bodily harm to you or others? If so, are there ways we can change this paradigm? This is not clear cut either way...
No. Again, I'm not talking about the shooting part.
Some people are saying they shouldn't have chased him because it was just a DUI. Like the whole fighting with cops is no big deal.
teufelhund1918
06-16-20, 05:56
Yeah, I was being very sarcastic, but you saw that. And yes, even well meaning people ask those questions in innocence. I have actually changed minds when I explained why you NEVER fire a warning shot, why shooting a gun out of someone's hands just a movie stunt, and shooting someone in an extremity can still be lethal or cause permanent damage.
And you're absolutely right about training being substandard for LEOs. When I hit the streets, I was woefully unprepared. I had 780 hours of academy training, only 72 hours were dedicated to firearms training, and about 40 hours were dedicated defensive tactics and mechanics of arrest. The VAST majority of those trainings were classroom sessions; all firearms training was at stationary targets; no practical "gun fighting" training whatsoever. We were actually told that we should take advanced firearms and street survival training, but that it would be at our own expense because neither the state, nor any of our departments, would ever pay for it. Training in conflict resolution and deescalation? None. Car stops? Four hours of classroom, about FIFTEEN MINUTES of total practice. There needs to a be a HUGE reevaluation of police training. Cops are doing what they can to survive, but they are mostly hitting the streets unprepared.
I probably shouldn't overload my 3 braincells by trying to multitask.. :laugh: Training for correctional officers is absolutely horrible. It does nothing to prepare one to run a housing unit with 150 inmates in it. It's pretty much learn as you go and hope the poo doesn't hit the fan. It use to be worse when there was only one officer per unit, but since a couple of officer deaths by the hands of inmates, they have two now.
BoringGuy45
06-16-20, 06:57
I probably shouldn't overload my 3 braincells by trying to multitask.. :laugh: Training for correctional officers is absolutely horrible. It does nothing to prepare one to run a housing unit with 150 inmates in it. It's pretty much learn as you go and hope the poo doesn't hit the fan. It use to be worse when there was only one officer per unit, but since a couple of officer deaths by the hands of inmates, they have two now.
Tell me about it! I started as a CO, became a cop and ended up in a department that was a horrible fit for me, then went back to being a CO, before leaving that due to the horrible, toxic work environment at my jail.
We had a little bit of crash course on the job training at the jail, but most of the training was just us, as a group, reading all the manuals and policies word for word. We of course had DT, handcuffing, and firearms training, but only a few total hours of all of them. "Field training" was a single shift; after that, you were on your own. The only saving grace at my facility was that new officers were assigned to pod control booth posts for their first few months on the job. New guys got a lot of time to observe how experienced officers worked, and got to know the routine by heart.
Officer is not getting his job back, and is likely going to prison. This is the reality of life today. They guy could have been 5 feet from hitting the switch on an A-bomb and the story will be cops shot unarmed man in back. GUILTY. Next.
Anyone who carries a gun needs to understand the rules in place today are not the same as 10 years ago even though no laws have changed.
If he goes to prison he needs a better lawyer. This will be another case of judicial overreach likely exceeding the grasp of the DA, who is under enormous political pressure to convict. I have an acquaintance, went to law school, became a cop, left copping to be a lawyer. She is pretty liberal. She saw the video and believes that once the suspect took the taser, it was justifiable. Of course, show it to a dozen people and get a dozen different perspectives.
I am not a lawyer and what I think is very different than what I know.
Sorry if I was unclear. I was rebutting the absurd idea that they should have "de-escalated" by not chasing the "just a DUI" suspect.
So shooting him in the back is preferable to letting him go to catch another day?
I mean I'm not going to defend this guy because he WAS a criminal and what he did carried a lot of risk. This wasn't straight up murder like the George Floyd case. On the flip side we can't know his mind at the moment he broke compliance. Who's to say he wasn't afraid he'd wind up dead in cuffs like George Floyd? It's not like the precedent isn't there after all.
I have to look at the totality of this situation and in that light, it might justifiably be ruled a legal shoot, but in no way shape or for is it a "good" shoot. You have his car. You have his DL, which is automatically suspended now. You've patted him down ala Terry and know he's not carrying a backpack nuke. He's disoriented, unsteady (at least until the adrenaline rush hit him) and he's going to be that much less effective as any sort of threat once the adrenaline crash hits him. You've effectively mitigated the risk to the public of him driving impaired.
Even if he shoots the taser at you, he's running away from you full speed, so any hit you take is going to be next to nothing because he's going to outrun the range of the wires almost instantly. All you have to do is hold back, radio out a description and direction of flight, then secure the scene as evidence.
This speaks to a common issue where policing harder is considered the only option, when policing smarter is staring you right in the face. Take his car, take his ID, put out a felony warrant/high flight risk BOLO and the next time he's stopped you can set up on him much more effectively. Nope, gotta take the biggest risk to catch that one smallish fish on the spot, to the point one of your rounds hit an occupied vehicle at the scene. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
Please don't take this as me saying cops should hide in the alley and play games on their phone for the whole shift. This is just the absolute worst time to be taking unnecessary risks to apprehend a small fish. Focus on the violent criminals preying on society and use the entire breadth and depth of the system to work the smaller cases. JMO, YMMV
Averageman
06-16-20, 12:34
Yeah, I kind of see your point, but I'm not sure that letting him run out of there wouldn't have ended badly either. Where is he going to go, what is he going to do?
He is drunk, he just got done wrestling two cops and is on his own version of the 100 yard dash, Isn't it more likely that this guy is gassed?
The third Car that could have come, would likely be giving this guy CPR.
I dunno, I like at these video's and I'm reminded of detention in 7th grade, but these people are adults.
I'm not sure we can fix all that.
ChattanoogaPhil
06-16-20, 15:30
Just let him go to be arrested 'another day'?
Why would another day necessarily end any better? Now he'll know he's got a warrant, and he's already proven that he's not going to be arrested peacefully. So what happens next time? Car chase where he runs over a couple innocent folks? Cop gets shot and killed?
Teaching criminals that if they get violent with the cops they'll be let go... bad idea.
Just let him go to be arrested 'another day'?
Why would another day necessarily end any better? Now he'll know he's got a warrant, and he's already proven that he's not going to be arrested peacefully. So what happens next time? Car chase where he runs over a couple innocent folks? Cop gets shot and killed?
Teaching criminals that if they get violent with the cops they'll be let go... bad idea.
Well we could always shoot them in the back as they're running away I guess. Wonder how that will work out for America? :rolleyes:
I don't understand where the disconnect is.
Chasing the suspect...
Is
a
different
decision
from
shooting the suspect.
The idea that the first must be followed by the second is ridiculous. The vast majority of times an officer chases a suspect nobody gets shot.
My original point is not complicated. The decision to chase the suspect is not based on the DUI, after he attacks the officers it's based on his fighting them. I'd rather not have the guy willing to fight cops roaming my neighborhood looking for a way to escape or hide. He is a bigger threat to the general community than "just a DUI".
My original point is not complicated. The decision to chase the suspect is not based on the DUI, after he attacks the officers it's based on his fighting them. I'd rather not have the guy willing to fight cops roaming my neighborhood looking for a way to escape or hide. He is a bigger threat to the general community than "just a DUI".
I don't think anyone is disputing chasing him. The massive disconnect is the decision at some point in that chase was that it was worth ending someones life. We have, for all it's faults, a relatively decent court system that can figure out the punishments associated with what happened in the Wendy's parking lot. Fairly certain none of those decisions would be to prescribe putting two slugs in his back.
HardToHandle
06-16-20, 18:39
Well we could always shoot them in the back as they're running away I guess. Wonder how that will work out for America? :rolleyes:
Offered with respect, shooting a fleeing felon was effectively considered law of the land for first 208 years of America. The Garner case effectively rolled back the consequences of tangling with the PoPo. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/
It is up to your personal morality and version of justice as if Garner is a correct decision, but it is the law of the land. As has been observed widely, we do appear to be on a path to the UK system of justice, where “policing by consent” and “cautions” replace American style law enforcement.
As way of an analogy, a cat willing to victimize the King’s men is probably willing to victimize the King’s subjects (me and my law abiding family). Likewise, thee was a reason that killing the King’s men was treated akin to treason.
Passed out drunk in a drive-through is a clear and present danger, indicative of a fundamental lack of care for his fellow citizens. Maybe he was a diabetic, tired from intensive Habitat for Humanity volunteering and just confused enough to use his prison MMA Ninja skills to grab that Taser and point it back at the officers. I wasn’t there.
Context matters folks.
All the people doing the "what if he got away" worst-case scenarios are absolutely failing to consider that a running cop took a shot at a running human 40-50' away with a backdrop of an extremely busy metropolitan avenue on peak Friday night activity time. With seven lanes each direction of major interstate less than 75 or a hundred yards away.
To be very clear, he's dead because he chose to fight the cops and flee. A series of very bad decisions and probably a life full of them.
But I'm kind of stunned at all the "good shoot" comments regarding shooting a fleeing subject in the back. No hostage, not a gang banger with warrants, no lethal weapon. Just holding a (now) discharged taser. And you have his car and his ID. With a very unsafe field of fire downrange.
We are lucky that a cop was a good shot, otherwise you could have had bystander collateral damage and Atlanta would have burnt not just Wendy's. You can see in the video how close bystanders were.
I can see maybe the cop getting confused when the guy turned and aimed something at him. Scared or pissed. Judgement call, heat of the moment. That might be a defense.
But shooting a guy you just frisked and know to be unarmed in the back while he's running away? Because he was able to grab your non-lethal taser?
From the first part of the video my gut sense is that the cops were good cops and had no intention of this outcome. I do not believe the "judge jury executioner" noise being raised by some.
Unless LEO comes to understand that they have to err on the side of caution unless there immediate threat of life, they are going to lose. We all will.
This is going to sound harsh, but I'm starting to believe that qualified immunity may have run its course. I think it has more risk of adverse impact than benefit. And let the non-leo agencies lose it as well.
Yep, cops will quit. Probably a bunch of good ones.
I don't have magic answers. What I do know is that under no uncertain terms was this a "good shoot" quotes intentional. Multiple lives were destroyed that night and more will follow. A "good shoot" needs to be something that a majority of reasonable people would look at it and say "yeah it had to happen, there was no other option". Clearly not the case here.
At the beginning of the post I mentioned the deceased made a series of bad choices. Just recognize that the police officers also made a series of choices. Time will tell if they made the right ones. Not looking good for the home team.
I may not be the mainstream opinion here, but I had to say it.
I don't see how people are looking at this as a simple foot pursuit for which the officer shot the guy in the back. I don't know if people are just commenting without having watched the video or what.
The suspect violently resisted a lawful arrest. He stole a taser from one of the officers during the course of resisting arrest. He attempted to flee and when he turned and fired the taser at the pursuing officer that officer shot him.
ETA: Video links. The poster of the YouTube video (11 Alive News) has more videos which show the body cam footage etc.
Exterior camera from Wendy's which shows the pursuit and shooting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eGj4YRwv_U
vicious_cb
06-16-20, 21:17
Context matters folks.
But I'm kind of stunned at all the "good shoot" comments regarding shooting a fleeing subject in the back. No hostage, not a gang banger with warrants, no lethal weapon. Just holding a (now) discharged taser. And you have his car and his ID. With a very unsafe field of fire downrange.
Tasers are far from non-lethal, they call them less lethal for a reason. Are we really trying to backseat quarterback a decisions of an officer who in that split second just had a weapon discharged in his face? Im betting 9/10 times people here would choose to fire on the suspect. You really think someone is going to be thinking about all of the above when he just got ground and pounded by the suspect and had a weapon discharged at him point blank?
Tasers are far from non-lethal, they call them less lethal for a reason. Are we really trying to backseat quarterback a decisions of an officer who in that split second just had a weapon discharged in his face? Im betting 9/10 times people here would choose to fire on the suspect. You really think someone is going to be thinking about all of the above when he just got ground and pounded by the suspect and had a weapon discharged at him point blank?So its non-lethal (less-lethal) when used by John Q Public. But magically more lethal in the hands of a fleeing drunk? I've seen videos of girl volunteers getting tased. And others have pointed out it's not like he was by himself in the guy was advancing.
I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking that guy, I said I thought they were probably good cops who in the heat of the moment made a decision they probably regret.
But I'm also very aware that he took a very risky shot with a very unsafe backdrop in the middle of a parking lot with a lot of other people and families in their cars.
I personally do not believe the shooting was justified objectively. Multiple views of multiple videos.
But in his shoes I probably would have done the same myself. Either because I saw him turn and point something at me but also possibly cuz I was pissed the guys grabbed my tazer and fled.
But my view doesn't really matter because it's going to be tried in the court of public opinion. And the more borderline events like this occur, the harsher that public opinion is going to be. Reality.
Dude is going to (at best) face manslaughter charges. Probably be politically overcharged which is just going to piss everyone off even more when he's found not guilty of murder and hate crimes.
As I asked earlier, what makes you all so sure the officer who fired knew it was a taser?
titsonritz
06-16-20, 22:14
As I asked earlier, what makes you all so sure the officer who fired knew it was a taser?
He was patted down for weapons.
He was patted down for weapons.
Obviously, because no one ever has got a weapon pass a pat down.
He was patted down for weapons.
This argument is obviously contradicted by the fact he shot a taser at one officer.
So where did the taser he fired come from?
What else are cops known to carry?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-17-20, 00:08
So its non-lethal (less-lethal) when used by John Q Public. But magically more lethal in the hands of a fleeing drunk? I've seen videos of girl volunteers getting tased. And others have pointed out it's not like he was by himself in the guy was advancing.
I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking that guy, I said I thought they were probably good cops who in the heat of the moment made a decision they probably regret.
But I'm also very aware that he took a very risky shot with a very unsafe backdrop in the middle of a parking lot with a lot of other people and families in their cars.
I personally do not believe the shooting was justified objectively. Multiple views of multiple videos.
But in his shoes I probably would have done the same myself. Either because I saw him turn and point something at me but also possibly cuz I was pissed the guys grabbed my tazer and fled.
But my view doesn't really matter because it's going to be tried in the court of public opinion. And the more borderline events like this occur, the harsher that public opinion is going to be. Reality.
Dude is going to (at best) face manslaughter charges. Probably be politically overcharged which is just going to piss everyone off even more when he's found not guilty of murder and hate crimes.
Luckily, the officer won't be charged by what YOU know NOW, but by what HE knew THEN. This has been well established in numerous USOF cases before, where Tasers have been taken from officers and used against them:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article216586065.html
vicious_cb
06-17-20, 02:49
So its non-lethal (less-lethal) when used by John Q Public. But magically more lethal in the hands of a fleeing drunk? I've seen videos of girl volunteers getting tased. And others have pointed out it's not like he was by himself in the guy was advancing.
I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking that guy, I said I thought they were probably good cops who in the heat of the moment made a decision they probably regret.
But I'm also very aware that he took a very risky shot with a very unsafe backdrop in the middle of a parking lot with a lot of other people and families in their cars.
I personally do not believe the shooting was justified objectively. Multiple views of multiple videos.
But in his shoes I probably would have done the same myself. Either because I saw him turn and point something at me but also possibly cuz I was pissed the guys grabbed my tazer and fled.
But my view doesn't really matter because it's going to be tried in the court of public opinion. And the more borderline events like this occur, the harsher that public opinion is going to be. Reality.
Dude is going to (at best) face manslaughter charges. Probably be politically overcharged which is just going to piss everyone off even more when he's found not guilty of murder and hate crimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QEnGkIbzA
Averageman
06-17-20, 10:37
He was patted down for weapons.
If three of us are rolling around on the ground, I'm not sure that you know the status of the other officers weapon status.
At the point where he turns around to fire the tazer, the cop in the back of the foot chase could have very well thought that was a gun from the vantage point he saw the action from.
Honestly, I would have shot him if I was the second Cop, I might well have no idea what he is turning around to fire. It's a life and death decision.
If three of us are rolling around on the ground, I'm not sure that you know the status of the other officers weapon status.
At the point where he turns around to fire the tazer, the cop in the back of the foot chase could have very well thought that was a gun from the vantage point he saw the action from.
Honestly, I would have shot him if I was the second Cop, I might well have no idea what he is turning around to fire. It's a life and death decision.
Under the totality of the circumstances, it was a justifiable shoot in my view.
If three of us are rolling around on the ground, I'm not sure that you know the status of the other officers weapon status.
At the point where he turns around to fire the tazer, the cop in the back of the foot chase could have very well thought that was a gun from the vantage point he saw the action from.
Honestly, I would have shot him if I was the second Cop, I might well have no idea what he is turning around to fire. It's a life and death decision.
That exactly expresses what I thought when I read the story. This is also the dialog the city should have been pushing instead of sacrificing an officer to appease no one.
Andy
It just dawned on me that the first officer let the unconscious/sleeping drunk guy drive his car out of the line at Wendy's and park to the side. I wouldn't have done that if I thought the guy was impaired. Seems to me you'd be assuming some liability if he ran over someone while doing as you directed in an impaired state. But that's a moot point in the overall discussion because this guy isn't the officer who fired, he arrives later.
As far as the tussle on the ground goes, it looks like the officer whose TASER was taken tried to drive stun the driver, but was unable to maintain contact (drive stunning is a pain compliance technique, it doesn't deliver neuro-muscular incapacitation) and shortly after, the driver gained control of the TASER. The officer says 'hands off the TASER, hands off the TASER' and then it sounds like 'he's got my TASER.' It looks like the officer who ultimately shot the driver attempted to tase the driver, unknown if he actually deployed.
At that point the officer who ultimately fired has seen the TASER in the subject's hand, as a further identifier, the TASER's lights are illuminated. During the foot pursuit you can see the TASER's light moving along the ground, swinging with the driver's right arm motion as he runs. The same arm that the driver brought up toward the officer.
Based on that, would it be unreasonable to assume the pursuing officer knew it was a TASER being pointed at him?
At this point, I think it is essential to drill down to the training the officer has had.
I've been retired almost 4 years now, so it has been a little over 4 years since I taught my last TASER course. In terms of use-of-force training the TASER course is woefully inadequate. Things like what to do if someone gets your TASER are not covered. So it is incumbent on the agency or instructor to cover them. This is why some of instructors can teach the course in the minimum time allotted (the user course is 6-8 hours) and it always took me longer than eight hours - because those things were discussed and drilled.
So if the officer is simply told 'if someone gets your TASER and attempts to deploy it against you, they are a lethal threat' it shouldn't be surprising to see events like this.
With appropriate training the officer should have been able to make a decision as to the lethality of the threat based on the fact that he had a partner.
This things are never as simple as they may look.
Back in Texas when I was a LEO, this case would be referred to a Grand Jury. Once they reviewed it, it would be NO BILLED in one afternoon. Slam dunk. Justified.
Back in Texas when I was a LEO, this case would be referred to a Grand Jury. Once they reviewed it, it would be NO BILLED in one afternoon. Slam dunk. Justified.
That's what needs to happen in this case - let the grand jury decide. Officer should have been placed on admin leave, not fired, until the results were known.
I don't know if I would say 'I'm afraid...' but I think where we are reaching a point where it will soon be up to Grand Juries or Coroners Inquests to rule on every officer involved shooting.
Well they put out an arrest warrant for him. I guess I hope they do the classic overcharge knowing that it will be damn near impossible to get A conviction. But in today’s day and age who the hell knows.
Hopefully Officers and Deputy’s across the nation will take notice. Society has made it very clear they do not want to be policed, so go through the ****ing motions put your time in and then get the hell out. Also if you’re thinking about becoming a police officer you need to get your ****ing head checked out.
This officer would’ve been much better off going up to the window waking the gentleman up, ignoring all the signs of intoxication, and clear it as a gentleman fell asleep and he did not detect any order of alcohol.
Averageman
06-17-20, 15:08
During the time they were rolling around, why weren't the cops throwing fists?
The bad guy was.
During the time they were rolling around, why weren't the cops throwing fists?
The bad guy was.
Fear of liability? There were several places you could see the cop could have choked him out easily but didn't take it, I figured due to fear of liability (and perhaps policy against choke holds?), and when LEOs become unable to do their jobs due to fear of liability and public fallout and such, it just ramps up the risks/dangers to all involved increasing probably of serious injury or death.
That was my take when watching to vid and wondering why they clearly held back. Especially right now, LEOs in fear of doing their jobs.
Averageman
06-17-20, 15:39
Well the Fulton County DA is burning these two Cops down in a interview.
Well they put out an arrest warrant for him. I guess I hope they do the classic overcharge knowing that it will be damn near impossible to get A conviction. But in today’s day and age who the hell knows.
Hopefully Officers and Deputy’s across the nation will take notice. Society has made it very clear they do not want to be policed, so go through the ****ing motions put your time in and then get the hell out. Also if you’re thinking about becoming a police officer you need to get your ****ing head checked out.
This officer would’ve been much better off going up to the window waking the gentleman up, ignoring all the signs of intoxication, and clear it as a gentleman fell asleep and he did not detect any order of alcohol.
They have 11 charges including felony murder, which puts the death penalty on the table, on him.
Averageman
06-17-20, 15:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GmRxH7GDU
Watching this go down, the DA is out for blood.
You're going to have to watch the video to see the obvious bias here.
This DA is exactly why this whole movement is gong to result in inferior Law Enforcement. If you're a White Guy, why would you submit to being Societies Staked Goat?
What. The. Actual. $&@€, Over???
Unbelievable. I don't know if I would go as far as to call it a good shoot, but certainly justified.
If I did everything that this guy did I would expect to get shot at.
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vicious_cb
06-17-20, 16:27
Id probably get out of Atlanta now if I lived there. If the mob doesnt get their pound of flesh, Atlanta burns. If the cops get convicted and the police stop doing their job in protest the city burns. Sounds like the DA went for the lose/lose option.
BoringGuy45
06-17-20, 16:31
Hopefully Officers and Deputy’s across the nation will take notice. Society has made it very clear they do not want to be policed, so go through the ****ing motions put your time in and then get the hell out. Also if you’re thinking about becoming a police officer you need to get your ****ing head checked out.
Unfortunately, there are too many cops who took their oath to "not swerve from the course of duty even at the cost of [their] own life" 100% seriously. They are what I call "WALL-E Cops": Even if they were the last person left on Earth, they would continue to patrol as usual.
They have 11 charges including felony murder, which puts the death penalty on the table, on him.
I'm afraid they are really going to try and get him convicted this time and ensure that he goes to death row. At that point, the best thing to do is get a bunch of guys to intercept the convoy on the way to prison, spring Rolfe, and head for a non-extradition country.
They have 11 charges including felony murder, which puts the death penalty on the table, on him.
MASSIVE overcharge and it's gonna blow up in his face, just like it did on the politically biased prosecutor in Baltimore. :rolleyes:
Offered with respect, shooting a fleeing felon was effectively considered law of the land for first 208 years of America. The Garner case effectively rolled back the consequences of tangling with the PoPo. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/
It is up to your personal morality and version of justice as if Garner is a correct decision, but it is the law of the land. As has been observed widely, we do appear to be on a path to the UK system of justice, where “policing by consent” and “cautions” replace American style law enforcement.
As way of an analogy, a cat willing to victimize the King’s men is probably willing to victimize the King’s subjects (me and my law abiding family). Likewise, thee was a reason that killing the King’s men was treated akin to treason.
Passed out drunk in a drive-through is a clear and present danger, indicative of a fundamental lack of care for his fellow citizens. Maybe he was a diabetic, tired from intensive Habitat for Humanity volunteering and just confused enough to use his prison MMA Ninja skills to grab that Taser and point it back at the officers. I wasn’t there.
Here's my point. Criminal law was far more succinct back in the early days of the Republic. Over time, it filled up with what I'd call in modern vernacular, a bunch of "Karen's Laws". A Complaint of Karens get together and ask to speak to the manager of law (legislature) and demand criminal codes for victimless crimes (mala prohibita rather than mala in se). Rubber spined politicians pander to them in exchange for votes and suddenly you have a virtually indecipherable and voluminous tome of criminal codes.
If we had a succinct and easily understood set of criminal codes, I'd be all for harder criminal enforcement and our prisons still wouldn't be as full.
This dude wan't passed out in command of a deadly vehicle anymore. What we now know is that he was on probation and this was going to send him back to prison. It still wasn't worth shooting him in the back. Not to mention one of the officer's bullets did strike an occupied vehicle, which immediately placed the public in more danger than the suspect presented by running away with a discharged taser.
We can't assume further danger than what can be reasonable assumed given present facts. We're not in the Pre-Crime era, at least not yet. We're getting closer now that Officer Rolf decided to shoot him and the idiot DA has decided to assume what was in his mind when he did. When he gets his ass handed to him in court, Atlanta will burn. That's my Pre-Crime prognostication anyway.
Sorry, this juice was definitely not worth the squeeze. Not even remotely.
As to the idiot DA, he's gonna go down just like my local DA did. Overcharge the officer, officer gets a FULL exoneration at trial and goes on to continue enforcing the law in another county, when all he had to do is agree to NOT prosecute, in exchange of the officer relinquishing their LE certification for life. The the family could collect their lottery winnings from the taxpayers and it would be over. That would be an actual win for the public under the circumstances, which is what "justice" is supposed to be about. :(
I haven't been able to find the probable cause statement online yet.
From what I gather from the DA's interview is the felony murder is causing the death of someone during the course of committing a felony, which in this case, is an aggravated assault with a deadly weapon for the other cop using the taser on Brooks.
All of this is predicated on the notion they placed Brooks under arrest without immediately informing him of same, meaning Brooks was acting in self defense. In the video, Rolfe says "I think you had too much to drink to be driving, put your hands behind your back for me, put your hands behind your back" and the fight was on.
Yikes.
APD Officers in Zones 3, 4, and 6 are walking off the job time now.
During the time they were rolling around, why weren't the cops throwing fists?
The bad guy was.
Throwing punches, kicking and using an impact weapon to gain control of the suspect would have been appropriate when the physical altercation started.
dwhitehorne
06-17-20, 17:37
MASSIVE overcharge and it's gonna blow up in his face, just like it did on the politically biased prosecutor in Baltimore. :rolleyes:
I'm guessing the massive overcharging is an attempt to get a plea. If it goes to trial and the training lesson plans point out out that and escalation of force is objectively reasonable when all of the Use of Force "Graham Factors" are present it won't look good for a murder charge. The DA and the media definitely don't want a public trial. David
Averageman
06-17-20, 17:40
I'm guessing the massive overcharging is an attempt to get a plea. If it goes to trial and the training lesson plans point out out that and escalation of force is objectively reasonable when all of the Use of Force "Graham Factors" are present it won't look good for a murder charge. The DA and the media definitely don't want a public trial. David
Already have one Cop supposedly testifying against the other for a lesser plea.
PracticalRifleman
06-17-20, 17:41
Ever stop to think the DA wants an acquittal? The DA is a true believer and wants chaos.
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It sounds like chaos is coming tonight. I am reading on another forum and on Twitter that Atlanta PD officers in multiple zones stopped answering calls, drove back to their stations, turned in their patrol car keys, and walked out following the DA's press release. It apparently started in Zone 6 and spread from there. Patrol, Detectives, pretty much everyone, from what I have heard.
An officer friend told the poster on the forum, who lives in Zone 2, "Get out," as in get out of Atlanta before everything goes to shit.
It sounds like chaos is coming tonight. I am reading on another forum and on Twitter that Atlanta PD officers in multiple zones stopped answering calls, drove back to their stations, turned in their patrol car keys, and walked out following the DA's press release. It apparently started in Zone 6 and spread from there. Patrol, Detectives, pretty much everyone, from what I have heard.
An officer friend told the poster on the forum, who lives in Zone 2, "Get out," as in get out of Atlanta before everything goes to shit.
Some will use it to take out rivals and such Purge style. Old grievances will be paid this night.
The Thin Blue Line is not a metaphor
Coal Dragger
06-17-20, 18:46
Can’t blame the APD officers walking out on this one.
In this instance the officers were acting in good faith, the situation got sideways, the suspect got shot, it happened pretty quickly. All the armchair quarterbacking from the DA and press et all on videos watched over and over again is BS.
The fact the officers have been charged is pretty stupid. I could see them being disciplined, or referred for remedial training, but I don’t see a crime. I predict that both of them will be acquitted assuming a judge doesn’t just summarily toss out the charges.
Let’s see if the hood rats in Atlanta can replicate Sherman’s march to the sea.
It sounds like chaos is coming tonight. I am reading on another forum and on Twitter that Atlanta PD officers in multiple zones stopped answering calls, drove back to their stations, turned in their patrol car keys, and walked out following the DA's press release. It apparently started in Zone 6 and spread from there. Patrol, Detectives, pretty much everyone, from what I have heard.
An officer friend told the poster on the forum, who lives in Zone 2, "Get out," as in get out of Atlanta before everything goes to shit.
How accurate is this, please?
I'm really hoping a tall Native American Atlanta cop is OK.
Andy
How accurate is this
Very.
Probably not a good night to be running a Cell Phone or Shoe Store.....
The fact the officers have been charged is pretty stupid.
Only one officer fired.
Reasonable people can have an honest disagreement about the reasonableness of the shooting.
I cannot fathom any reasonable justification for the other officer to be disciplined, much less criminally charged.
This is no less than a politically expedient knife in the back of every good cop in that city, or maybe the entire Country.
Averageman
06-17-20, 19:31
Only one officer fired.
Reasonable people can have an honest disagreement about the reasonableness of the shooting.
I cannot fathom any reasonable justification for the other officer to be disciplined, much less criminally charged.
This is no less than a politically expedient knife in the back of every good cop in that city, or maybe the entire Country.
They are saying the Cop that didn't fire a shot has agreed to testify against the one who did.
He's got a deal with the DA.
Already have one Cop supposedly testifying against the other for a lesser plea.
The 2nd cops lawyer came out and said that isn't happening.
PracticalRifleman
06-17-20, 19:34
They are saying the Cop that didn't fire a shot has agreed to testify against the one who did.
He's got a deal with the DA.
They are saying the Cop that didn't fire a shot has agreed to testify against the one who did.
He's got a deal with the DA.
From the article on Fox News, that isn’t true. His attorney made a statement denying that.
Rayshard Brooks killing: Former Atlanta Officer Garrett Rolfe charged with murder, could face death penalty
https://www.foxnews.com/us/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-officer-garrett-rolfe-murder-charges-death-penalty-eligible
Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at http://www.foxnews.com/apps-products/index.html.
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Averageman
06-17-20, 19:43
That's what the DA was claiming early today in the News Conference.
Yeah, but that same DA is saying a taser isn't a dangerous weapon a week after he charged two cops with aggravated assault for using a dangerous weapon (a taser) on a couple people.
So he sounds like a compete tool.
john armond
06-17-20, 20:15
Watching the video, the DA said a grand jury won't convene until October. If he can't make bail, I hope the protective custody of the PO is really good while he is waiting for the GJ to convene.
I see nothing on police walking off in regular news sources.
It is being denied by APD.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-police-walk-out-rumors-not-accurate-department-says/85-78ea71bc-3f36-4ce8-9557-86bfa2353c7c
Saw it on CNN. More reports popping up on Twitter.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/17/us/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-shooting-wednesday/index.html
If the police walk off the job in mass, and other agencies in GA refuse to step up.
How much of Atlanta will burn, before the troops are sent in?
To put it an other way will the mob burn more than Sherman did?
grizzlyblake
06-17-20, 20:50
How accurate is this, please?
I'm really hoping a tall Native American Atlanta cop is OK.
Andy
I just text my next door neighbor who is APD and works nights. He said it’s true. One zone for sure, three more most likely.
Don’t know the validity of the site.
https://decaturish.com/2020/06/atlanta-police-walkout-following-murder-charge-against-officer-who-shot-rayshard-brooks/
Here's a mainstream article. I included a quote about how neighboring agencies are telling APD to pound sand in reply to their requests for mutual aid, which I am glad to see. Much like how the neighboring SO's have told Portland, OR Police Bureau that they aren't going to give them mutual aid anymore, which was long overdue.
I knew it was going to come to this and sooner rather than later. I hate to see it happen on one hand, but hey, people are getting their wish- no evil police oppressing them.
Reap what you sow, Mayor Lance and DA Howard.
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/breaking-higher-than-usual-number-atlanta-officers-call-out-work/bXIu9PYodDZXcFotKPczGO/
Vince Champion, Southeast regional director for the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, told the AJC he could not confirm which police zones were affected.“There are officers walking off," Champion said Wednesday evening. "There are officers saying they are not going to leave the precinct unless to help another officer. Some are walking off and sitting in their personal vehicles." Champion said he has been told APD was attempting to get back-up support from adjacent law enforcement agencies. But he said some agencies declined to help.
“Why would you put your officer in Fulton County and take the chance of this happening?” Champion said. "You have an officer who just heard what Paul Howard said, saying he’s going to be in prison for the rest of his life or put to death, and now he’s got to surrender."
CNN addressing it with the mayor. This will be a shock to most people here but apparently Atlanta PD‘s Twitter page was full of shit.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-police-not-answering-calls/index.html
CNN addressing it with the mayor. This will be a shock to most people here but apparently Atlanta PD‘s Twitter page was full of shit.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-police-not-answering-calls/index.html
So, using the ComDems' catch phrase of the week- is this what "re-imagining" law enforcement looks like?
Diamondback
06-17-20, 22:11
How accurate is this, please?
I'm really hoping a tall Native American Atlanta cop is OK.
Andy
Yeah, me too--if you mean who I think you do, he hasn't been seen here in months, and M4C is missing something without him.
Yeah, me too--if you mean who I think you do, he hasn't been seen here in months, and M4C is missing something without him.
I was wondering the same thing the other day, I'm surprised he hasn't chimed in on the Rona, the CHAZ and all this mayhem goin on- checked Fly's last activity on M4C and it was 2.23.2020. He's been silent for some time. Taking a break likely. Hope he's doing well in ATL.
vicious_cb
06-18-20, 00:43
I see nothing on police walking off in regular news sources.
It is being denied by APD.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/atlanta-police-walk-out-rumors-not-accurate-department-says/85-78ea71bc-3f36-4ce8-9557-86bfa2353c7c
Ha! You still believe regular news sources. Listen for yourself: Atlanta Police Dispatch - Zone 6 East
https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/30453
So either the DA is guilty of political overreach in his charges because of political pressure, or he charged the cop in such a way, knowing he's going to likely skate.
The Georgia SBI was caught unawares of the charges, as they are still in the middle of their investigation: https://allongeorgia.com/georgia-state-news/gbi-says-fulton-da-blindsided-agency-amid-investigation-in-brooks-case/
I love that the mayor said the neighbors would help (if cops walked off), and the neighbors said "no."
Yeah, but that same DA is saying a taser isn't a dangerous weapon a week after he charged two cops with aggravated assault for using a dangerous weapon (a taser) on a couple people.
So he sounds like a compete tool.
Why does prosecutorial misconduct get a free pass? The DA needs to be disbarred and thrown out.
Very. how bad did the pending call stack eventually get? Last I heard it was in the high 500’s last night, and nobody was running them at all in those zones. Any word on today or this weekend?
Why does prosecutorial misconduct get a free pass? The DA needs to be disbarred and thrown out.
Yeah. Eff that guy.
Averageman
06-18-20, 09:05
So, using the ComDems' catch phrase of the week- is this what "re-imagining" law enforcement looks like?
I went to sleep early and woke up in a Country where the District Attorney's are now charging Cops for Defending themselves and shooting escaping felons.
Not only do you have the right to defend your life, Cops have the same right to defend themselves, especially in the performance of their jobs that protect us.
I'm pretty sure after wrestling, punching and dropping a Cop on his head, this guy was escaping to turn his soul over to Jesus and change his life. All that child sexual abuse, felonies for beating his Girlfriends and assaults inside his home were behind him.
The Fulton County DA will pay a dear price for this.
A Cop in the US is 18.5% more likely to be shot by a Black Man than to Shoot a Black Man.
Just sayin'
Re-imagine that shit.
The Fulton County DA will pay a dear price for this.
A Cop in the US is 18.5% more likely to be shot by a Black Man than to Shoot a Black Man.
Just sayin'
Re-imagine that shit.
I can only hope so. He’s attempting to destroy a man’s career and end another man’s life. I can only hope that someone does him the same courtesy.
That's what the DA was claiming early today in the News Conference.
The DA should be informed that he can't pull a Jedi mind trick on a Jedi.
Any word on today or this weekend?
I was off the clock yesterday, I'll ask an APD Officer when I bump in to one on shift tonight.
I was off the clock yesterday, I'll ask an APD Officer when I bump in to one on shift tonight.
Hopefully, you will be standing on the outer side of the Fulton County line when you do.
There are civilized pockets of communities within Fulton county. Unfortunately those people have to suffer the tax consequence to fund the rest of the county.
ChattanoogaPhil
06-18-20, 21:11
Yeah, but that same DA is saying a taser isn't a dangerous weapon a week after he charged two cops with aggravated assault for using a dangerous weapon (a taser) on a couple people.
DA Howard had previously described a taser as a deadly weapon according to Georgia law. Video of Howard's remarks below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=12&v=nxKN46YdWFg&feature=emb_logo
So... it would appear that the officer was under fire from a fleeing felon with a deadly weapon when the officer used deadly force to defend himself. Felony murder?
I was off the clock yesterday, I'll ask an APD Officer when I bump in to one on shift tonight.
I did not see a single APD vehicle patrolling. Normally they're everywhere.
They were responding to calls, and I saw them at hospitals.
Belmont31R
06-19-20, 02:38
Charge that ****er of a DA
Section 242 of Title 18 makes it a crime for a person acting under color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.
For the purpose of Section 242, acts under "color of law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within their lawful authority, but also acts done beyond the bounds of that official's lawful authority, if the acts are done while the official is purporting to or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. Persons acting under color of law within the meaning of this statute include police officers, prisons guards and other law enforcement officials, as well as judges, care providers in public health facilities, and others who are acting as public officials. It is not necessary that the crime be motivated by animus toward the race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin of the victim.
The offense is punishable by a range of imprisonment up to a life term, or the death penalty, depending upon the circumstances of the crime, and the resulting injury, if any.
Diamondback
06-19-20, 09:57
And BTW, the shitstains are going after Rolfe's stepmom just for being family...
https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama/2020/06/19/this-is-where-our-country-is-going-stepmom-of-atl.-officer-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-is-fired-from-her-job/
I did not see a single APD vehicle patrolling. Normally they're everywhere.
They were responding to calls, and I saw them at hospitals.
Interesting. Thanks. Surprisingly, I didn’t get activated again last night.
And BTW, the shitstains are going after Rolfe's stepmom just for being family...
https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama/2020/06/19/this-is-where-our-country-is-going-stepmom-of-atl.-officer-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-is-fired-from-her-job/
The Leftists in this country are turning into a soft version (soft for now) of North Korea where the family of the perceived violator must be punished, too. Recently an MLS player was fired from his team because of an online post his wife made. What the communist in this country are doing is straight out of the fascist notebook- make the majority fear voicing any type of dissent by destroying their and their families’ lives and livelihoods when they do so.
The fringe crazies are straight up daesh, imo.
The Leftists in this country are turning into a soft version (soft for now) of North Korea where the family of the perceived violator must be punished, too. Recently an MLS player was fired from his team because of an online post his wife made. What the communist in this country are doing is straight out of the fascist notebook- make the majority fear voicing any type of dissent by destroying their and their families’ lives and livelihoods when they do so.
Are tasers considered less lethal or non lethal?
Are tasers considered less lethal or non lethal?
It depends. If the police use it, it’s lethal. If a criminal uses it, non lethal. I am just using the same reasoning as the Atlanta DA.
Well, if it's less lethal, it's still lethal to one degree or another. The guy tried to use a stolen lethal weapon on the officer. Sounds pretty clear cut to me that he had a shooting coming..
Are tasers considered less lethal or non lethal?
It doesn’t matter. It’s an object capable of causing serious bodily injury if wielded as such. Same as if he had grabbed the dudes ASP or a rock.
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Averageman
06-19-20, 13:45
Are tasers considered less lethal or non lethal?
It depends. If the police use it, it’s lethal. If a criminal uses it, non lethal. I am just using the same reasoning as the Atlanta DA.
And there we go, the DA wants to have it both ways. The hypocrisy is completely lost on the MSM and no one has the guts to mention it.
This DA, should be fired strictly on his actions so far.
titsonritz
06-19-20, 14:44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsxInZjTUYA
Belmont31R
06-19-20, 15:00
The Leftists in this country are turning into a soft version (soft for now) of North Korea where the family of the perceived violator must be punished, too. Recently an MLS player was fired from his team because of an online post his wife made. What the communist in this country are doing is straight out of the fascist notebook- make the majority fear voicing any type of dissent by destroying their and their families’ lives and livelihoods when they do so.
Whats even worse about the soccer player is they are from Eastern Europe, the post she made was written in a different language, and they wanted him to denounce his own wife. He apologized and they fired him anyways.
Don't apologize. Same principle as not negotiating with terrorists. They'll come after you anyways, and it just emboldens them to want more the next time while you'll still always be thought of as that racist POS.
Averageman
06-19-20, 17:09
Don't apologize. Same principle as not negotiating with terrorists. They'll come after you anyways, and it just emboldens them to want more the next time while you'll still always be thought of as that racist POS.
Same with taking a knee, sorry, I didn't do it, so I'm not apologizing for it and I'm sure not bending a knee to you.
Talked with a guy I know, he is black , his brother is an officer with APD. His brother has called out sick and cut a deal with his doctor that he has to stay out for 2 weeks.
Belmont31R
06-19-20, 18:49
Same with taking a knee, sorry, I didn't do it, so I'm not apologizing for it and I'm sure not bending a knee to you.
I just don't see how these people don't seem to know or care this type of behavior is exactly what they supposedly fight against. I know how commies work, and that they don't actually care about black people, but you have to have a ****ed up mind to let yourself get so twisted into pure hatred like this.
My family had NOTHING to do with the American slave trade or apparatus. My dad's side came from Poland after WW1 and my moms side came just after WW2 where my grandparents lived under Nazi occupation as kids in the Netherlands where they were terrorized by German troops. One of my grandma's sisters told me about them playing in a field as kids and a Nazi plane strafed them for no reason. Just thought it would be fun to shoot at kids. All those kids got sent over here by boat so they could have a better life but had to start out from scratch speaking a different language and adapting to worn torn Europe to southern Cali.
Who black people should be demanding apologies from are elitist Democrats and progressives who's system is designed to keep people poor and dependent on the state. Welfare and how urban centers are run is designed to keep people in poverty so they can be used to further the leftist cause. Malcom X actually gave a speech where he said white liberals are a bigger threat to blacks than 'outed' white supremacists. White supremacists make themselves known while white liberals will infiltrate the black rights movement and use black people for their benefit...not to actually help blacks get ahead in life. Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened. I was watching some live feeds of Portland the other day when they were trying to setup barricades for their own little CHAZ/CHOP and they were stringing gay pride flags around. Most blacks are actually fairly socially conservative and don't approve of LGBT issues. Just another example of white liberals taking over a minority cause for their own benefit. As an aside the reason gay marriage got gifted to us by the courts is even in Cali gay marriage failed as a proposition and blacks voted heavily against it. If it wouldn't pass in Cali the only avenue was the black robes creating their own laws.
Diamondback
06-19-20, 18:58
Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness.
As for bending the knee, I do that ONLY for God or my girlfriend. Anyone else demanding it can piss off...
Talked with a guy I know, he is black , his brother is an officer with APD. His brother has called out sick and cut a deal with his doctor that he has to stay out for 2 weeks.
What does a racial specifier have to do with anything?
Do jews generally not keep black friends or something?
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Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness.
Um, what? The surest sign of weakness is overcompensation in shying away from showing weakness. People that can't apologize for their mistakes are the weakest people I know. When you've made a mistake, man up, and own it.
Edit: That came off harsher than I intended. Learning to own your mistakes leberates you from trying the illusion of perfection. No one is free of mistakes. Owning them breaks down barriers, and improves relationships.
OTOH, apologizing for stuff that you didn't do IS a sign of weakness.
BoringGuy45
06-19-20, 20:12
What does a racial specifier have to do with anything?
Do jews generally not keep black friends or something?
I think he's saying that this isn't a racial divide within law enforcement and that black officers are just as tired of this nonsense and getting just as much flak.
The movement needs to change to BLMEBC (Black Lives Matter Except Black Cops).
What does a racial specifier have to do with anything?
Do jews generally not keep black friends or something?
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Just stop it with the race baiting rhetoric. The whole media narrative is cops are racist white pigs hell bent on murdering innocent peaceful blacks in their homes. All cops are now in the cross hairs of the mindless masses, regardless of race. The police have been marginalized and abandoned by both the public they are sworn to serve and protect, and the politicians and senior officers they answer to. Sick leave, early retirement, plausibly deniable slow responses to calls are just the start of the police mutiny. We saw this in Albuquerque in 2013 after the DoJ and communist-lite state government hamstrung the police. The city has suffered for it, and it is only getting worse. Despite my frustrations, I do not blame the police for this. If it is not yet happening where you are at, just be patient. The stupidity will infect your town soon enough.
I think he's saying that this isn't a racial divide within law enforcement and that black officers are just as tired of this nonsense and getting just as much flak.
The movement needs to change to BLMEBC (Black Lives Matter Except Black Cops).
Or blacks murdered by blacks. I mean, Chicago didn't earn the name "Chiraq" for being a cultural melting pot of diversity, inclusion and tolerance.
Update on the Blue Flu Thursday night. Channel 5 in ATL showed a roll call sheet from one precinct and there were almost twenty officers that called in sick. They showed the roll sheet on the screen with the names blanked out.
Just stop it with the race baiting rhetoric. The whole media narrative is cops are racist white pigs hell bent on murdering innocent peaceful blacks in their homes. All cops are now in the cross hairs of the mindless masses, regardless of race. The police have been marginalized and abandoned by both the public they are sworn to serve and protect, and the politicians and senior officers they answer to. Sick leave, early retirement, plausibly deniable slow responses to calls are just the start of the police mutiny. We saw this in Albuquerque in 2013 after the DoJ and communist-lite state government hamstrung the police. The city has suffered for it, and it is only getting worse. Despite my frustrations, I do not blame the police for this. If it is not yet happening where you are at, just be patient. The stupidity will infect your town soon enough.
Simmer down teacup. I’m well aware of the events of the world.
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Update on the Blue Flu Thursday night. Channel 5 in ATL showed a roll call sheet from one precinct and there were almost twenty officers that called in sick. They showed the roll sheet on the screen with the names blanked out.
How many guys per shift in the precinct? My precinct only has about 25-30 guys per shift. If they are similar, that's huge.
eightmillimeter
06-19-20, 22:55
Straight out of the communist playbook, punish the family...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/stepmother-of-atlanta-cop-in-rayshard-brooks-shooting-fired-from-job.amp
The stepmother of the Atlanta police officer who fatally shot Rayshard Brooks was fired from her job as human resources director at an Atlanta-based mortgage company for allegedly violating company policy and creating an uncomfortable working environment for fellow employees.
Melissa Rolfe, the stepmother of former Atlanta police officer Garrett Rolfe, “lost the confidence of her peers, leadership, and many employees who no longer felt comfortable engaging with her,” a statement from Equity Prime Mortgage said. Fox News' "Tucker Carlson Tonight" broke the story on Thursday night.
The company said it values “diversity of thought” but “when those views create a hostile working environment, we must make difficult decisions and part ways.”
A source close to the matter told "Tucker Carlson Tonight" that Rolfe received no explanation, other than: "We have to terminate our relationship with you.”
Talked with a guy I know, he is black , his brother is an officer with APD. His brother has called out sick and cut a deal with his doctor that he has to stay out for 2 weeks.
Sounds like the WuFlu!!! He better quarantine and every other APD Officer should do the same for the safety of the public!!!
Straight out of the communist playbook, punish the family...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/stepmother-of-atlanta-cop-in-rayshard-brooks-shooting-fired-from-job.ampSounds like a business in need of some "looting"
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ChattanoogaPhil
06-21-20, 09:54
Who's to say he wasn't afraid he'd wind up dead in cuffs like George Floyd? It's not like the precedent isn't there after all.
Brooks was a convict on probabtion. I'll say he was afraid of being arrested, violating probation and being sent back to prison.
The officers on the scene showed no aggression toward Brooks, and he wasn't a stranger to arrest. The notion that he was afraid of being killed in police custody so he felt he had no choice but to violently attack the officers is poppycock.
PracticalRifleman
06-21-20, 10:30
Brooks was a convict on probabtion. I'll say he was afraid of being arrested, violating probation and being sent back to prison.
The officers on the scene showed no aggression toward Brooks, and he wasn't a stranger to arrest. The notion that he was afraid of being killed in police custody so he felt he had no choice but to violently attack the officers is poppycock.
100% agree.
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What does a racial specifier have to do with anything?
Do jews generally not keep black friends or something?
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Why the hell would you ask such an obnoxious question.
I stated the fact that he is black to show that it is not white officers only, that are pissed off and afraid.
Gentlemen:
Please simmer down.
Back to the original subject of the deceased Brooks. It turns out the white woman that set fire to the Wendy's has the identical name as Brooks's girlfriend. :)
It turns out the white woman that set fire to the Wendy's has the identical name as Brooks's girlfriend.
Unpossible. I've been told he was a dedicated family man. Maybe even father of the year material...
Unpossible. I've been told he was a dedicated family man. Maybe even father of the year material...
Right. And his wife went on tv grieving her loss.
The guy was out drinking on his kids birthday, got drunk and passed out in a drive through - dedicated and loving father.
When the cops finally woke him up, he asked if he could walk to his GIRLFRIEND's place or have his GIRLFRIEND come to get him - dedicated husband.
teufelhund1918
06-22-20, 07:39
Right. And his wife went on tv grieving her loss.
The guy was out drinking on his kids birthday, got drunk and passed out in a drive through - dedicated and loving father.
When the cops finally woke him up, he asked if he could walk to his GIRLFRIEND's place or have his GIRLFRIEND come to get him - dedicated husband.
He had a BAC of .108 according to the report. Pretty low to pass out on. Can't wait to see the tox screen on him. Wagers???
It is fairly common for a person out on probation, to fight when they hear the words" your under arrest for DUI". Since a stipulation of probation is no alcohol offenses.
I had an incident which mirror this event in Atlanta, guy was very cool until I told him he was under arrest for DUI. Then the fight was on. I had gotten very lazy, and stopped carrying a BUG on my person. In the middle of the fight the bad guy got my pistol out of it's holster, and it was sitting in the middle of the street.
It jacked me up even more, my flashlight somehow was jammed in my sap pocket and until I lost my pistol I couldn't get it out. But with the rush I got I ripped my flashlight through the leather lining at the top of the pocket. I then started to try and beat the suspect to death. All shots to the head, until he was done fighting.
I spent 3 days in the hospital, he was given 3 additional years for the assault on me, plus the time he had left to serve on his original sentence. In court he was apologizing to me like crazy.
When I went back to work, I had a BUG in my left front pocket.
^^^ That. The hairiest arrest I ever made was a DUI. Could have been Brooks' cousin. Same demeanor initially. Guy was cool until I broke the news. Hardest fight I've ever been in. Went from zero to full on in two seconds. Never got a call for B/U out. Big guy. Thank god I was literally in the best shape of my life that evening... I got him cuffed and in the car...
WHY did he fight??? He was a frikking CDL OTR truck driver. He would have killed me to save his career. It was all on dash cam. I've gotta see if I still have a copy.
john armond
06-22-20, 08:53
Another officer fired. This one in Florida. Long story short, in January he pulls a woman over. Kid in the car not in a car seat. In February, a month later, the same woman gets in an accident, while high. Her kid is not in a car seat, again, and is killed. The P.O. is arrested in June for not contacting DSS/Child Welfare and reporting a child in danger.
When I was on the road, we never had to report anything like this to DSS!
I tell people all the time, regarding the Atlanta case, cops don’t have the discretion anymore to let you “call a friend” out of fear of liability issues. Those days are over.
https://www.nbc-2.com/story/42226820/fort-myers-police-officer-arrested-for-failing-to-protect-young-child
ETA: Mods, feel free to merge this post with the other “office fired” post if you like.
ChattanoogaPhil
06-22-20, 08:55
Unpossible. I've been told he was a dedicated family man. Maybe even father of the year material...
Indeed
----
The charges to which Brooks pleaded guilty and for which he was still on probation dated back to August 2014 when he was convicted on four counts – False Imprisonment, Simple Battery/Family, Battery Simple and Felony Cruelty/Cruelty to Children.
He was tried in Clayton County and sentenced to seven years on the first count, with one year in prison and six on probation and 12 months for each of the other three counts, sentences to be served concurrently.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8431801/Rayshard-Brooks-probation-faced-going-prison-charged-DUI.html
Indeed
----
The charges to which Brooks pleaded guilty and for which he was still on probation dated back to August 2014 when he was convicted on four counts – False Imprisonment, Simple Battery/Family, Battery Simple and Felony Cruelty/Cruelty to Children.
He was tried in Clayton County and sentenced to seven years on the first count, with one year in prison and six on probation and 12 months for each of the other three counts, sentences to be served concurrently.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8431801/Rayshard-Brooks-probation-faced-going-prison-charged-DUI.html
Practically a model citizen right?
Practically a model citizen right?
Of course. To listen to the news the poor guy was just taking a nap in the drive through when the police just walked up and shot him.
Grand58742
06-22-20, 09:20
Of course. To listen to the news the poor guy was just taking a nap in the drive through when the police just walked up and shot him.
Does the term "gentle giant" strike any memories?
BoringGuy45
06-22-20, 10:07
That is the way mandated reporting works. They take that very seriously these days, especially as kids have to be in car seats up until age 8 now. I think that's excessive, but it is what it is. But in this case, this kid was 3 years old. There's no excuse for not having a toddler in a car seat. This officer did screw up in that regard.
john armond
06-22-20, 10:20
I am glad I am no longer a local PO. Still a LEO, but in a different capacity. Without knowing the original stop, what if she put the kid in a seat right there, and was let off with a warning. There is no officer discretion anymore. Something like this would have never needed to be reported to DSS when I was on the road. What is the limit on reporting? Speeding or running a stop sign can cause an accident/death. If there is a kid in the car, do you report that to DSS? Then there is the timing. Stop in January, death in February, and P.O. arrested on June. Maybe if the accident/death happened within a short period of time, like hours, or same day even, I could see, but a month and 6 months later?
When I was on the road, the County DSS went to the local HS, handed out their cards to all the students during a presentation, and told them to call if their parents ever did something that made them feel uncomfortable or hurt them. We (The PD) was getting constant calls to do welfare checks with DSS after that. Most of them centered around “my parents grounded me. They made me do my homework. They won’t let me stay out as late as I want.” This went on for a couple months. It was ridiculous.
That is the way mandated reporting works. They take that very seriously these days, especially as kids have to be in car seats up until age 8 now. I think that's excessive, but it is what it is. But in this case, this kid was 3 years old. There's no excuse for not having a toddler in a car seat. This officer did screw up in that regard.
Mandated reporting is fine and dandy for qualified persons with respect to objective and definable factors pertaining to actual abuse.
What’s saddest about stuff like this is that the limp dick social welfare saviors actually think being overzealous actually does anything in the real world to stop actual abuse.
Like that chick a couple weeks ago who called the cops after seeing a BB gun hanging on the wall during a zoom session with a student.
Point is you can’t legislate the stupid out of people.
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Another officer fired. This one in Florida. Long story short, in January he pulls a woman over. Kid in the car not in a car seat. In February, a month later, the same woman gets in an accident, while high. Her kid is not in a car seat, again, and is killed. The P.O. is arrested in June for not contacting DSS/Child Welfare and reporting a child in danger.
When I was on the road, we never had to report anything like this to DSS!
I tell people all the time, regarding the Atlanta case, cops don’t have the discretion anymore to let you “call a friend” out of fear of liability issues. Those days are over.
https://www.nbc-2.com/story/42226820/fort-myers-police-officer-arrested-for-failing-to-protect-young-child
ETA: Mods, feel free to merge this post with the other “office fired” post if you like.
Anyone know if FL law mandates LE contact CPS under a situation as this...if not, wow.
BoringGuy45
06-22-20, 11:24
Mandated reporting is fine and dandy for qualified persons with respect to objective and definable factors pertaining to actual abuse.
What’s saddest about stuff like this is that the limp dick social welfare saviors actually think being overzealous actually does anything in the real world to stop actual abuse.
Like that chick a couple weeks ago who called the cops after seeing a BB gun hanging on the wall during a zoom session with a student.
Point is you can’t legislate the stupid out of people.
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I agree, reporting (the horror!) a kid having a BB gun is beyond stupid. But I think that it's common sense to be concerned about a toddler not being properly secured in a car seat. A kid over, say, age 5? Yeah, I think it's moronic that kids have to sit in car seats up to age 8 now. I was out of booster seats before I was 6. But if this was a mandated reporting situation and he failed to report, than it is what it is.
Right now, we have the most confused generation I've ever seen in this country. They want everything regulated, and they want the government to make everything a utopia...except they don't anybody to tell them what to do or have any rules they need to follow. But they do. But they also don't. And if you don't follow that train of thought, it means you're racist.
titsonritz
06-22-20, 13:25
Practically a model citizen right?
He was just getting his life together.
ChattanoogaPhil
06-22-20, 13:31
"The warrant also described three earlier DCF interactions with Zeagler involving her daughter.
The first was in August 2016 when she gave birth to the girl and she tested positive for opiates and the newborn was showing signs of withdrawal. The second was an October 2019 instance involving a domestic information between Zeagler's grandfather (a registered sex offender) and grandmother and report that there was heroin being sold from their home. The third report involved the crash that killed Serenity."
-----
Apparently authorities knew the mother was a druggie and grandpa was a sex offender, and heroin was being sold from the home. Yet, the child remained with junkie mom. BUT... child services would have take action to keep the child safe over a car seat violation? please...
titsonritz
06-22-20, 13:41
He had a BAC of .108 according to the report. Pretty low to pass out on. Can't wait to see the tox screen on him. Wagers???
I've been waiting to hear that too.
Brooks was a convict on probabtion. I'll say he was afraid of being arrested, violating probation and being sent back to prison.
The officers on the scene showed no aggression toward Brooks, and he wasn't a stranger to arrest. The notion that he was afraid of being killed in police custody so he felt he had no choice but to violently attack the officers is poppycock.
George Floyd was one of the people arrested by Gerald Goines in Houston. That's not to say he wasn't guilty, merely to say that more than a few black suspects HAVE been the victims of bad policing in the form of criminal acts. While I completely agree that Brooks wanted to avoid a parole violation bad enough to run, just not bad enough to DWI and fail to follow the commands of an officer when caught. However, we have no way of knowing exactly what was in his mind at the moment he fled. It may have been 100% the parole violation, or a combination of things. I'm just a little reticent to pretend I know a man's mind when I've never walked in his shoes.
Again for the record, I don't agree with any of the charges files against these officers. In normal times they would never get filed on. They're just two more casualties in the war between police and citizens. :(
john armond
06-22-20, 15:01
"The warrant also described three earlier DCF interactions with Zeagler involving her daughter.
The first was in August 2016 when she gave birth to the girl and she tested positive for opiates and the newborn was showing signs of withdrawal. The second was an October 2019 instance involving a domestic information between Zeagler's grandfather (a registered sex offender) and grandmother and report that there was heroin being sold from their home. The third report involved the crash that killed Serenity."
-----
Apparently authorities knew the mother was a druggie and grandpa was a sex offender, and heroin was being sold from the home. Yet, the child remained with junkie mom. BUT... child services would have take action to keep the child safe over a car seat violation? please...
So, are they charging anyone from the hospital that knew the newborn tested positive for opiates? Doesn’t look like it. Also, was DSS already aware of the dangers posed by her mother, and if so, what did they do/ was anyone in DSS charged when the girl died?
This just seems more along the lines of the cops are all bad and we are going to go after them for anything we can mantra.
teufelhund1918
06-23-20, 05:35
George Floyd was one of the people arrested by Gerald Goines in Houston. That's not to say he wasn't guilty, merely to say that more than a few black suspects HAVE been the victims of bad policing in the form of criminal acts. While I completely agree that Brooks wanted to avoid a parole violation bad enough to run, just not bad enough to DWI and fail to follow the commands of an officer when caught. However, we have no way of knowing exactly what was in his mind at the moment he fled. It may have been 100% the parole violation, or a combination of things. I'm just a little reticent to pretend I know a man's mind when I've never walked in his shoes.
Again for the record, I don't agree with any of the charges files against these officers. In normal times they would never get filed on. They're just two more casualties in the war between police and citizens. :(
Hope I can get this across without sounding course, but speaking to a general point, how many of these type of incidences would not have happened if the person being arrested just accepted he did something wrong, was caught and didn't violently resist arrest? At what point does personal responsibility for your actions factor into your fate. I'm not saying that officers like Chavin get a free pass or that there are no bad LEOs out there, but just that there is some responsibility on the part of the person being arrested for getting themselves into the situation. If I'm not mistaken, both Floyd and Brooks had multiple page charge sheets. There have been many times over the years where the same situation has gone the other way. Purps have resisted arrest on some level, gotten the officer's weapon and killed them. When your placing someone under arrest, that is the main concern on the your mind when going through the arrest process. It's a very intense process even in a prison situation like I'm in. Ever wonder why the little kiddies in the hood like to wear baggy cloths?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epeo8Pfm1xM
Look at the Officer Down webpage and you can get an idea that encounters with purps going the other way is really more common than you would think.
https://www.odmp.org/
Back to Atlanta:
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/armed-protesters-remain-wendys-where-rayshard-brooks-was-killed-so-whats-next/Q5L36HU77BFHFKWQUAUSYZIZ6M/
Is this the beginning of Atlanta's version of the "autonomous zone" i.e. lawless zone? is the weak democrat mayor's bottom going to act?
SomeOtherGuy
06-23-20, 07:36
They're just two more casualties in the war between police and citizens. :(
There is no war between police and citizens. There is a cold war between police and some of the far-left who riot. In a few areas the far-left may have a large share of the local population, but in most areas they are 1% or less. The average citizen is a pure spectator. I'm calling this out because I don't want police to adopt an "all non-police are the enemy" mindset.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-23-20, 08:01
Back to Atlanta:
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/armed-protesters-remain-wendys-where-rayshard-brooks-was-killed-so-whats-next/Q5L36HU77BFHFKWQUAUSYZIZ6M/
Is this the beginning of Atlanta's version of the "autonomous zone" i.e. lawless zone? is the weak democrat mayor's bottom going to act?
As a cop why would you want to go into that area and attempt to patrol? Why would you want to try to clear armed people from blocking the roadways and causing all of the businesses in the area to board up? When all you would be doing is opening yourself up to almost certainly a confrontation that they city would just throw you under the bus for. The same people in the neighborhoods bitching about feeling abandoned by the police would be the same ones showing up to protest when police showed up to clear the streets.
Don’t worry guys, the mayor of Atlanta said she is ready to be president. That way she can make the entire country like the safe and thriving metropolis that inner city Atlanta has become. And off to the camps for you dissenters out there.
https://krdo.com/politics/2020/06/21/atlanta-mayor-calls-trumps-tulsa-rally-an-embarrassment/
Averageman
06-23-20, 09:11
Toxicology Report?
What are the odds there are opiates?
ChattanoogaPhil
06-23-20, 10:00
Don’t worry guys, the mayor of Atlanta said she is ready to be president.
https://krdo.com/politics/2020/06/21/atlanta-mayor-calls-trumps-tulsa-rally-an-embarrassment/
That's good to know. Perhaps the young man with the shotgun will be Secretary of Defense?
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/armed-protesters-remain-wendys-where-rayshard-brooks-was-killed-so-whats-next/Q5L36HU77BFHFKWQUAUSYZIZ6M/
Hope I can get this across without sounding course, but speaking to a general point, how many of these type of incidences would not have happened if the person being arrested just accepted he did something wrong, was caught and didn't violently resist arrest? At what point does personal responsibility for your actions factor into your fate. I'm not saying that officers like Chauvin get a free pass or that there are no bad LEOs out there, but just that there is some responsibility on the part of the person being arrested for getting themselves into the situation. If I'm not mistaken, both Floyd and Brooks had multiple page charge sheets. There have been many times over the years where the same situation has gone the other way. Purps have resisted arrest on some level, gotten the officer's weapon and killed them. When your placing someone under arrest, that is the main concern on the your mind when going through the arrest process. It's a very intense process even in a prison situation like I'm in. Ever wonder why the little kiddies in the hood like to wear baggy cloths?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epeo8Pfm1xM
Look at the Officer Down webpage and you can get an idea that encounters with perps going the other way is really more common than you would think.
https://www.odmp.org/
Conservatively I'd say 95% of them wouldn't happen, but probably closer to 98% in reality. Simply put, over a half century of Democrat plantation indoctrination has left urban black communities incapable of homogenization with the rest of society. It has become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Without a radical catalyst, nothing will change about it either. Take the Chiraq for example. More policing isn't going to really change anything. The culture will remain the same. That culture prevents advancement of the community. No jobs, no services, no advanced education and no opportunities. Those commodities won't come to that community because they don't value them enough to not destroy them.
The problem as I see it is the "culture" has to be a way of life rather than something to celebrate on your own time, even though that culture actively discourages advancement. It's a form of tribalism and tribalism doesn't foster advancement, it fosters insularity. If you can't switch it on and off, you're not going to succeed in the larger world. Almost all of those who succeed distance themselves from the culture, both geographically and professionally. All of the black families in my neighborhood are quite successful. My black boss is an executive and is quite successful. None of them live in the "hood". They rejected the plantation mentality and got out. Independence is it's own form of success and it's also self-fulfilling.
But I don't view police reform as a racial issue. Duncan Lemp and Breonna Taylor are the same person. I support certain reforms, but I reject most of the core planks of the national BLM movement, because they're really just Marxism cloaked in racial justice. So my blanket response to why I can't publicly support this movement is this. "The only difference between the left boot and the right boot, is the direction of the tread pattern on the necks of The People."
Ultimately the answer was right in front of them all along. If you police you own, someone else doesn't have to do it for you. Don't skyline yourself and you won't get the negative attention. That applies to both the urban black communities AND the police profession.
Tl;Dr: Don't do stupid shit.
Diamondback
06-23-20, 11:06
I'm gonna tell a little story from 25 yrs ago when I was in haaaagh-screwel that relates to GlockToGo's point. When I was a sophomore engineering student, one of the seniors took me under his wing and mentored me, and "Jimmy" (name changed) once told me "I don't want to be seen as a 'black engineer,' I want to be seen as an engineer, a professional and a man of good character first, one who just HAPPENS to be black. Not just a role model to people who look like me, I want to be an example to people who look like you, or him (gesturing to an Asian kid in the next row), or her (gesturing to a girl in the corner)."
Every so often I wonder where he is now but have no doubt he's built a successful career--thought he would be an interesting contrast to the snowflakes today, showing how quickly MLK's dream has died.
There is no war between police and citizens. There is a cold war between police and some of the far-left who riot. In a few areas the far-left may have a large share of the local population, but in most areas they are 1% or less. The average citizen is a pure spectator. I'm calling this out because I don't want police to adopt an "all non-police are the enemy" mindset.
Au contraire mon frère, there is a war, but it's one manufactured by the pols. In every case where excessive mala prohibita laws are enforced, it's at the behest of the local and sometimes state governments. Crime and punishment are big business and it wouldn't be possible if officers didn't participate. More laws = more crimes = more officers needed to arrest more citizens. It's a cycle that needs broken.
What we need is a "peace officer" mentality in the profession. Don't arrest someone unless they need arresting to maintain the peace, or to answer for a crime where there is a victim. JMO, YMMV
I would say most, if not all, gun laws and probably drug laws are in the malum prohitita category.
joedirt199
06-24-20, 03:00
If enforcing crimes is such a money maker, where is my yearly bonus for enforcing more crimes? I get paid the same whether I bust my butt or sit back and handle what is given to me. I get paid on sales tax and property tax revenue only and a very small portion of ticket revenue comes back to the dept.
I can work overtime doing dwi, mip, or traffic enforcement and those are paid from federal grants. Any extra time I put in go to a comptime bank that they can choose to make me take whenever they want.
Most ticket revenue goes to the courts for judges, clerks, paperwork, fees, etc. They are already affecting laws to combat depts using municipal traffic violations as money makers.
teufelhund1918
06-24-20, 08:13
It looks like to me that the police are abdicating control in a lot of city areas. Most likely orders from political city leadership. They are refusing to hold these socialist protesters accountable on any level what so ever. If you follow it in the news, you'll see that it is just emboldening them. They are showing up in the streets armed and threading people. Meanwhile, tons of FBI agents show up in Alabama to investigate a garage door pull. To me, it shows perfectly that guns aren't the problem. It's the person's intent behind the gun. This isn't going to end up good. I think you'll see some sort of shoot out before long. Then they'll have another hot button issue to start rioting and looting about. All of this is leading to nothing short of complete lawlessness.
Averageman
06-24-20, 09:57
The Left have never understood restraint.
It's not going to be too much longer for this to blow up in their faces. They will go too far and they will do it soon.
They really will and soon too.
Diamondback
06-24-20, 10:15
In the immortal words of Fred as Admiral Painter, "This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it!"
The Left have never understood restraint.
It's not going to be too much longer for this to blow up in their faces. They will go too far and they will do it soon.
They really will and soon too.
And the Right has never understood that you cannot kowtow to the Left hoping to appease them. The Left will never be appeased until they have complete power over everyone else. They do not want to live as equals, they want to live as tyrants.
teufelhund1918
06-24-20, 11:24
And the Right has never understood that you cannot kowtow to the Left hoping to appease them. The Left will never be appeased until they have complete power over everyone else. They do not want to live as equals, they want to live as tyrants.
Absolutely, this started many decades ago. The Right has continually told that they must be tolerant of others regardless of opinion. This is true to a point. But at another point, you have to put your foot down or you will cease to exist. Many other factors have contributed to where we are too. .
teufelhund1918
06-24-20, 11:27
Well, this is an interesting turn of events. Can't wait to see what happens with this! :sarcastic:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/protesters-atlanta-jail-demand-release-woman-accused-wendys-arson
Averageman
06-24-20, 12:12
Well, this is an interesting turn of events. Can't wait to see what happens with this! :sarcastic:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/protesters-atlanta-jail-demand-release-woman-accused-wendys-arson
From the article;
There have been rumors that White was Brooks' girlfriend, something Brooks' family denies. While Findling would not confirm those claims, he did say White and Brooks knew each other.
So that's an interesting way for the world to find out about your "Side Piece".
If you donated, the DA wants to know about you. Frankly I’m shocked a judge turned this down.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-for-ex-atlanta-cop-accused-of-murder-claims-das-office-tried-to-uncover-those-who-donated-to-client
A related note, Fulton County (Atlanta) DA Paul Howard was beaten by a big margin in the run off election. There will be a new DA for the county. Wonder how she will handle this case.
Grand58742
08-14-20, 12:54
If you donated, the DA wants to know about you. Frankly I’m shocked a judge turned this down.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-for-ex-atlanta-cop-accused-of-murder-claims-das-office-tried-to-uncover-those-who-donated-to-client
I can't believe a DA had the balls to push such a thing to a judge.
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