View Full Version : PSA Question...
Spyder1329
06-15-20, 20:57
Does PSA monitor any of these forums?
I don't see them under the Manufacturers sub-forum but thought I'd ask anyways. I know they monitor another gun forum and it seems to be the only way to get decent customer service from them.
I don’t recall seeming them around.
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You can find them on TOS pretty easily
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I know they used to. Some years ago, I needed to PSA about a problem and couldn't get through by phone. They responded immediately when I sent them a PM.
Yeah I could have sworn I saw their logo on here as an advertisement in the past, but I never looked for them as a vendor.
That guy Josiah seems to be all over it on the other forum. He apparently responds to posts and PM's almost instantly.
I tried to join the other forum last week just to have an avenue to inquire with him about product availability and shipping times, but they would not accept a personal e-mail account due to spammers...? They needed a business e-mail.
They were an advertiser at one time.
If I were to bet, it would be that once they found out the anti-PSA sentiment of the prominent personalities they decided it wasn't worth their time or money to have a presence.
They were an advertiser at one time.
If I were to bet, it would be that once they found out the anti-PSA sentiment of the prominent personalities they decided it wasn't worth their time or money to have a presence.
But, but, but......PSA is just as good as BCM!
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But, but, but......PSA is just as good as BCM!
So full discloser, I don't think that PSA's quality is as good as BCM. Having said that I remember a good amount of back and forth with PSA on this site, I ordered one of there lower kits for a spikes lower and the spring detent for the safety wasn't included, mind you this was 2013 or 2014. They did send it out to me a month or so after I emailed them, but I was impatient and bought a CMMG lower kit instead. I have a blem lower from them that works fine, I replaced the trigger and stock to convert to a A4 clone, but I've never had an issue with them otherwise. I sort of look at Aero as the new price leader if I want to go budget and still get something with greater QC.
Spyder1329
06-16-20, 22:15
You can find them on TOS pretty easily
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yeah I know but TOS voted me off the island....needless to say, thanks for the feedback everyone
There is another clown company that doesn't come here anymore after finding out they would be challenged on their BS, and that their paid shills would as well.
I'm not saying that PSA had paid shills here, but they received a rough time. The continual low quality release of items really gave them a beating. IMHO, they know their niche, and do exceedingly well in it. I don't fault them for that at all. However, I do feel people should understand they run a much heavier gamble with PSA products than most others.
Again, just my take on it. As a company I'm sure they are doing well, and I'm glad to see the firearm industry in general doing well.
Something I noticed long ago at the other site - Threads in the PSA industry section that are overly critical (especially if guys post pictures of garbage they have received) tend to go 'poof' and disappear after the issue is resolved.
They DO seem to resolve the issues when they are brought up (have seen them replace stuff that many others would not have) but do not assume that really critical threads stick around forever there. They are free to delete as they wish in THEIR section there. They do in fact pay for that section...
But, but, but......PSA is just as good as BCM!
No, PSA is not BCM, DD or Colt quality. I'd put them right around S&W quality, which is a company that puts out some fine firearms.
There is another clown company that doesn't come here anymore after finding out they would be challenged on their BS, and that their paid shills would as well.
IMHO, they know their niche, and do exceedingly well in it.
I would not call PSA a "clown company". As far as a company they seem to do everything they can to do as well as they can. Good work ethic, at least as far as I can tell. To be honest, I only looked into them recently because I heard their owner speaking on some popcorn granola podcast several months ago and he seemed to have a good business mind.
You are right, they do know their niche. Any time you are building something over time or making a large purchase...boat, house, car, let's throw a new rifle in there as well, it is said that there are three check boxes to make:
Inexpensive
On time (available)
High quality
But you can only pick two, you cannot have all three.
Recently for me ,PSA seemed to fill two of the boxes really well, considering the times we are in, and the third one "good enough". I bought two rifle kits and put them away with lowers for future builds with my kids. More of a project and plinker purchase than anything. It's how PSA's niche worked for me. YMMV
No, PSA is not BCM, DD or Colt quality. I'd put them right around S&W quality, which is a company that puts out some fine firearms.
I can see my sarcasm was definitely lost in translation.
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The_War_Wagon
06-18-20, 07:59
But, but, but......PSA is just as good as BCM KAC!
FIFY! :sarcastic:
That other hobbyist site is one thing, but go to some of the state boards <cough, cough - calguns - cough-cough>, and your brain will explode at the convoluted logic... :blink:
I can see my sarcasm was definitely lost in translation.
I was tracking with you, but that probably means you ache all the time, hate people, refer to most calls as BS calls regardless of the outcome, and find recruits to be worthless and weak.
No, PSA is not BCM, DD or Colt quality. I'd put them right around S&W quality, which is a company that puts out some fine firearms.
I would not call PSA a "clown company". As far as a company they seem to do everything they can to do as well as they can. Good work ethic, at least as far as I can tell. To be honest, I only looked into them recently because I heard their owner speaking on some popcorn granola podcast several months ago and he seemed to have a good business mind.
You are right, they do know their niche. Any time you are building something over time or making a large purchase...boat, house, car, let's throw a new rifle in there as well, it is said that there are three check boxes to make:
Inexpensive
On time (available)
High quality
But you can only pick two, you cannot have all three.
Recently for me ,PSA seemed to fill two of the boxes really well, considering the times we are in, and the third one "good enough". I bought two rifle kits and put them away with lowers for future builds with my kids. More of a project and plinker purchase than anything. It's how PSA's niche worked for me. YMMV
I would not call PSA a clown company either, though I might infer that about some of their product line up. If anything, they are a juggernaut putting lots of places out of business, which is certainly not the mark of a clown.
I was tracking with you, but that probably means you ache all the time, hate people, refer to most calls as BS calls regardless of the outcome, and find recruits to be worthless and weak.
LOL
Back and knees - check
People are idiots - check
Recruits know it all but have no spine - check
Caller’s neighbor looked at her funny - check
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I would not call PSA a clown company either, though I might infer that about some of their product line up. If anything, they are a juggernaut putting lots of places out of business, which is certainly not the mark of a clown.
I do have to say, that if they made a MP5 clone, of some sort I might be interested in it. It wouldn't be used as a defensive measure, and probably more of a range toy. I do appreciate that they are putting AR's in the hands of the masses, although I wish that those gun owners educated and trained more.
No, PSA is not BCM, DD or Colt quality. I'd put them right around S&W quality, which is a company that puts out some fine firearms.
I would not call PSA a "clown company". As far as a company they seem to do everything they can to do as well as they can. Good work ethic, at least as far as I can tell...
I have seen enough pictures of the various garbage parts they sent out the door posted at the other site to know better.
That company either has blind people in their quality control dept or they have blind people in their quality control dept.
ChattanoogaPhil
06-18-20, 18:01
Wife has a PSA pencil barrel. Trijicon RMR to keep it light and simple and a brake to calm things down. She's on her third case of M193 without a hiccup. Not everyone is a high-speed low-drag operator. Satisfied PSA customer.
Is PSA just an assembly house or do they manufacture some of their own components?
Five_Point_Five_Six
06-18-20, 19:24
And here we have one of the many reasons I won't do business with PSA any longer. I just don't have the desire, time or patience to be their end user quality control.
Is PSA just an assembly house or do they manufacture some of their own components?
I googled what components does Palmetto State Armory actually manufacture and came up with this:
FREEDOM OVER PROFIT.
Since its inception, Palmetto State Armory has focused on providing the best quality AR-15 parts and accessories for the best price possible. Following year after year of exponential growth, Palmetto State Armory’s core principle remains the same, and our commitment to freedom before profit remains unwavering. The idea is simple:
SELL AS MANY GUNS TO AS MANY LAW-ABIDING AMERICANS AS POSSIBLE.
Putting guns into "common use" is an important legal defense established by the Supreme Court that safeguards the rights of the people against tyranny by prohibiting restrictions on firearms found to be "in common use". Putting any gun into "common use" protects against any attempt by the government to further infringe on the Second Amendment right of all Americans.
OUR MISSION IS TO MAXIMIZE FREEDOM, NOT OUR PROFITS. WE WANT TO SELL AS MANY AR-15 AND AK-47 RIFLES AS WE CAN AND PUT THEM INTO COMMON USE IN AMERICA TODAY. OUR FOCUS ISN'T TO MAKE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY BUT TO SPREAD FREEDOM AS FAR AND WIDE AS POSSIBLE. OUR LEGACY WILL NOT BE ABOUT MONEY; WE WANT OUR LEGACY TO BE ABOUT MAXIMIZING AMERICAN FREEDOM. AND WE WORK EVERY DAY TO DO JUST THAT. WE MAKE HIGH-QUALITY FIREARMS AT AFFORDABLE PRICES FOR EVERYONE! THEN WE BACK THEM WITH A FULL LIFETIME WARRANTY.
100% LIFETIME WARRANTY.
Palmetto State Armory firearms are covered by an industry leading 100% LIFETIME WARRANTY. This extends beyond the original purchaser. We want the person who bought a great quality firearm at an excellent price to have comfort in knowing that no matter what, the firearm can be fixed at no additional cost.
THIS INCLUDES SHIPPING BOTH WAYS.
We strive for excellence all the way through production and hope customers never have to use this warranty but we also pride ourselves in 99% non-repair/return ratio. It is there for peace of mind so that the consumer can be confident in their purchase. Should the consumer ever need to contact us regarding a repair under the warranty, simply use our contact form for the fastest response.
INDUSTRY EXPERTS
The family of companies to which Palmetto State Armory belongs includes: DC Machine in Summerville, SC; Ferrous Engineering in West Columbia, SC; Special Tool Solutions in Jacksonville, FL; Spartan Forging in Lincolnton, NC and Lead Star Arms in West Columbia, SC.
With the combined expertise and experience of this robust family of manufacturers and innovators in the firearm components and accessories industry, Palmetto State Armory is able to have ownership in every step of the process of its firearms - from the first forging of the receivers to the last twist of the muzzle brake.
Making it ourselves allows us to keep the price low, the quality high and stay strongly invested in researching and developing new products. And on top of that, we back our product with a 100% Full Lifetime Warranty. If it has our name on it we will back it up. Whether you’re the first, second or tenth owner, we guarantee our quality. Ten years from now or thirty years from now, we guarantee it. We want this to be fun, and it’s only fun if it works.
As founder Jamin McCallum remembers his time on deployment in Iraq. He says his time on the ground there helps motivate the mission of Palmetto State Armory to this day:
"I’VE SEEN WHAT A SOCIETY LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT FALLS APART. IT’S REALLY, REALLY BAD. THAT’S WHY OUR MISSION IS TO MAXIMIZE FREEDOM, NOT OUR PROFITS. WE WANT TO SELL AS MANY AR-15 AND AK-47 RIFLES AS WE CAN; NOT TO MAKE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF MONEY, BUT TO PUT THEM INTO COMMON USE IN AMERICA TODAY.
I DON’T WANT MY LEGACY TO BE THAT I MADE A LOT OF MONEY, I WANT IT TO BE THAT THIS COMPANY PRODUCED THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF FREEDOM. AND SO WE WORK EVERY DAY TO DO JUST THAT. MAKE HIGH QUALITY FIREARMS AT A PRICE THAT MAKES THEM AFFORDABLE TO THE MOST PEOPLE POSSIBLE. THEN WE BACK THEM WITH A 100% FULL LIFETIME WARRANTY.
IF WE CAN DO THAT, I CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT."
Palmetto State Armory continues to pursue its founding principle every day by building firearms in Columbia, SC that carry a 100% Full Lifetime Warranty and a price point that makes them accessible to as many people as possible.
My take:
I don't know if this is merely a marketing strategy, or a firmly held belief.
Was not aware of the extent of their warranty.
I used PSA lowers on my second and third builds, quit buying them because I don't like their logo, same with Anderson. Likewise I used several of their LPK's before I populated my parts bin enough to put together my own LPK's - it doesn't make sense to buy LPK's when about the only thing you use are detents, detent pins, detent springs and pivot pins. I do buy other stuff from them on their daily deals and have no complaints in that regard.
Would I buy a complete rifle from them? Why would I? At this point I've never bought a complete, in the box rifle. I have two rifles that are made of complete factory parts - a LaRue and a Colt; the LaRue I put together using an ultimate upper kit, and their lower; the Colt I bought an upper, and a complete lower at separate times. Come to think of it, it's not a complete Colt - it has a ToolCraft BCG and a Giessele charging handle.
As far as remarks about quality, and QC, from what I've heard, this has been steadily improving. It will take them a while to outrun the early problems.
Googling one of their subsidiaries in your response (DC Machine) seems to show thatthey make their own barrels, barrel extensions. and lowers:
http://www.dcmachine.net/services/
I've only known a couple guys that have bought their complete guns, but they seem happy with them.
Straight Shooter
06-19-20, 20:03
Googling one of their subsidiaries in your response (DC Machine) seems to show thatthey make their own barrels, barrel extensions. and lowers:
http://www.dcmachine.net/services/
I've only known a couple guys that have bought their complete guns, but they seem happy with them.
I bought two- one has been a safe queen..one is a testing piece.
Its a 16" middy SS WYLDE chambered. Before firing, as best I could, I went over it and saw nothing that looked wrong.
Its been 100% reliable for over 1600 rounds. Shoots very nicely and is as accurate as most any AR. Time will tell, and I make NO claims of superiority. It is WELL worth what Ive got in it, and after I get my range stash replenished..Ill start testing again.
They ARE improving, they DO & HAVE had issues, but if you get one where the stars lined up and it was assembled correctly & parts are as they should be, youve got a decent AR well worth the cash.
The whole point is no matter what they try and do, it doesn’t change the fact we have a right to it. We didn’t get the rights because someone wrote it down. We’ve always had these rights. Always will. I've been just writing an essay on this topic using this link (https://eduzaurus.com/free-essay-samples/gun-control/). The government can say that we don’t, but that doesn’t change the facts. We need to spread that message, not telling people “you only deserve guns if you don’t hand them in”
No. You have a RIGHT to guns, and arms. Doesn’t matter what the government says or does.
Straight Shooter
02-18-21, 10:02
I bought two- one has been a safe queen..one is a testing piece.
Its a 16" middy SS WYLDE chambered. Before firing, as best I could, I went over it and saw nothing that looked wrong.
Its been 100% reliable for over 1600 rounds. Shoots very nicely and is as accurate as most any AR. Time will tell, and I make NO claims of superiority. It is WELL worth what Ive got in it, and after I get my range stash replenished..Ill start testing again.
They ARE improving, they DO & HAVE had issues, but if you get one where the stars lined up and it was assembled correctly & parts are as they should be, youve got a decent AR well worth the cash.
Since this thread has been resurrected from June..Ill update.
My test rifle now has over 1800 rounds and continues to run & shoot flawlessly.
Just told someone a couple days ago I wish I woulda bought 10 instead of two. The other one I sold to a member here, last I heard was running fine, but he can chime in on that if he wants.
I picked up the PSA 16" middie from SS and it has been trouble-free. I installed an H-buffer in place of the standard carbine one and replaced the extractor spring with a Sprinco XP as a matter of course. It has a FSB and we barely had to move the windage dial on the rear sight to zero.
Full disclosure - I got it right before the ammo dried up so it has not been run terribly hard.
Pre-panic, the PSA Freedom guns were running around $600 vs $900 and up for Colt, LMT, Sionics, BCM, etc. They do honor their warranty by all reports and they are doing MUCH better at assembly than say 6 years ago.
In my humble opinion (and opinion only) they certainly hold their own compared to the Ruger or S&W ARs that are their realistic competitors.
Andy
PSA isn’t too bad...
My AK-P is awesome. Accurate, reliable, and was a good buy for a compact AK. That is their GF3 line, and from what I’ve heard... the GF4 and GF5 are just as good with better barrels/parts. Do they have teething problems, like the AK-V? Yep... but they seem to square stuff away professionally.
I did grab a 11.5” pistol build kit, and one of their lowers, for my Heat build (tossed in a binary trigger for s***s/giggles). Not their Premium line, but was Nitrided. No issues with it.
Would I buy more? Depends on the situation. I’m sort of ARed out, as I have my 8th waiting on a parts kit (one of those KE polymer lowers, and a lightweight DoubleStar upper). I kind of want an 18” or 20” upper for another lower that is built, but not really set on a brand. If PSA has one that I like, for a good price, when I’m looking to spend the coin... I’d consider them.
Not interested in their Dagger, being I am issued a Glock 19 (no need for a cheaper clone... I’d just grab a Blue Label). Might consider their MP5 clone, if it ever comes out... but then it is another platform that I have multiple other firearms that are similar enough (Glock magazine AR pistol, Beretta CX4, and D/I .45 AR). Shy of that, nothing really blows my skirt up.
Straight Shooter
02-18-21, 20:14
I picked up the PSA 16" middie from SS and it has been trouble-free. I installed an H-buffer in place of the standard carbine one and replaced the extractor spring with a Sprinco XP as a matter of course. It has a FSB and we barely had to move the windage dial on the rear sight to zero.
Full disclosure - I got it right before the ammo dried up so it has not been run terribly hard.
Pre-panic, the PSA Freedom guns were running around $600 vs $900 and up for Colt, LMT, Sionics, BCM, etc. They do honor their warranty by all reports and they are doing MUCH better at assembly than say 6 years ago.
In my humble opinion (and opinion only) they certainly hold their own compared to the Ruger or S&W ARs that are their realistic competitors.
Andy
Andy-
The absolutely will hold up against Ruger, S&W, Springfield Armory, ect. Thats a great comparison.
Had a guy wanting to buy mine last Sunday...coulda made a quick buck but I was like NO WAY.
For those who got them pre-panic..hang on to them. They will be pretty dang good investments.
I actually liked them more back in the day. Back when at least half the stuff they advertised was sporting the fn chf barrels and their premium bcg, and you could build a half way decent beater AR on the cheap.
Now it really seems they just push their bottom of the barrel stuff. Although admittedly, I built one of their freedom kits for the heck of it and it's still running strong. And yes, I own better stuff to compare it too.
I got some junk from them over the years, but they always took care of it.
Soli Deo Gloria
I bought a complete premium upper with the FN barrel and then bought a Stealth complete lower a few weeks later. This was right when the lowers were $139 and the upper was $399 or something cheap like that.
They aren't bad and I haven't noticed any visual issues like canted FSB or M4 feed ramps being off, but I haven't gotten a chance to shoot it yet. I have it as a spare rifle, put BCM furniture on it and a Primary Arms red dot.
Since this thread has been resurrected from June..Ill update.
My test rifle now has over 1800 rounds and continues to run & shoot flawlessly.
Just told someone a couple days ago I wish I woulda bought 10 instead of two. The other one I sold to a member here, last I heard was running fine, but he can chime in on that if he wants.
Thanks for the update. Interesting to hear. I took a class over the summer with a guy who brought a PSA AR-10 variant, and it didn't fair well at all, granted the guy attending didn't really have any prior knowledge of AR's or his Springfield pistol. The rifle seemed to seize up after a couple of magazines, they got him on some slip 2000 or something similar and that helped, but the guy ended up borrowing the instructors BCM 5.56 half way through the class. I think this is half the issue with PSA, they are the firearm for the lowest common denominator now that DPMS and Bushy are not found on the shelves, and the buyers don't help. I do appreciate them flooding the market with AR's as I can only imagine the headache they provide for bloomberg and others, and I'm glad that yours seems in working order. I do hope that they improve, and are known for better quality as it really would help the market as a whole.
Andy-
The absolutely will hold up against Ruger, S&W, Springfield Armory, ect. Thats a great comparison.
No, historically they have had a much greater showing of problems than the AR15s from companies you just listed.
I'm not saying your sample doesn't run, but there is no way around the litany of issues their company has had with AR15s and other products. Regarding their warranted items, they have been known from multiple persons to be difficult to deal with when problems arise.
No, historically they have had a much greater showing of problems than the AR15s from companies you just listed.
I'm not saying your sample doesn't run, but there is no way around the litany of issues their company has had with AR15s and other products. Regarding their warranted items, they have been known from multiple persons to be difficult to deal with when problems arise.
But but but “it’s just as good as BCM!”
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I own quite a few PSA Lowers and uppers. I have had issues with a few of the uppers. They were corrected by the factory. Once any initial issues were sorted out, the Fn CHF barreled uppers I have, have all run as good as any other rifle I own including Colts, BCM and DD's. Several of them have completed high round count carbine and SUT courses without issue. The SUT courses are especially hard on rifles- a break contact drill only lasts a few minutes and you can easily burn 90-100 rounds depending on terrain, number of bounds etc....Much of that time you will be shooting "in the dirt" and not standing at the 5 yard line doing Up Drills etc...the rifles get hot and dirty and full of sand, grass and other crap off the ground.
I wish I could say the same for my buddy with the "Premium 3 Letter" rifle he bought from another company. It shoots like crap and it doesn't matter what ammo or shooter-- 4 MOA. "That's within milspec" is what he was told. Well, yea, that may be within milspec- but it's also within Romanian Ak milspec! Pretty sad considering what he paid for the rifle.
No, historically they have had a much greater showing of problems than the AR15s from companies you just listed.
I'm not saying your sample doesn't run, but there is no way around the litany of issues their company has had with AR15s and other products. Regarding their warranted items, they have been known from multiple persons to be difficult to deal with when problems arise.I wonder how many they have sold compared to other companies? More sales would lead to more reported problems if that was the case.
I know most of what they advertise are build kits, as opposed to the other companies listed who sell complete guns. If the end user is assembling the gun that could also be why we hear of more issues with psa.
I'm no psa fanboy, but I am experienced with them and think they catch more flack then they deserve, but for sure, they deserve some flack.
But it is the internet. Just the other day I saw someone ranting that sig is the equivalent of kel tec......and I just rolled along because....well...the internet.
Soli Deo Gloria
No, historically they have had a much greater showing of problems than the AR15s from companies you just listed.
I'm not saying your sample doesn't run, but there is no way around the litany of issues their company has had with AR15s and other products. Regarding their warranted items, they have been known from multiple persons to be difficult to deal with when problems arise.
Have seen too many threads to count at the other site (over years) where guys have posted pictures of obviously jacked up parts they have received and read the stories about how calling customer service got them 'difficulties' that you mention.
To the point that it is well known there that if you have a problem with PSA stuff your best bet is to avoid calling and start a thread in the PSA section of that sites 'Industry Section' with pictures and a description of the problem. Once it is mentioned there (and highly visible to others) the problem usually gets taken care of FAST. And then (depending on how bad PSA screwed up with whatever garbage they sent out) once resolved and the thread moves down a bit it goes 'poof' and disappears.
To a casual observer of the PSA section there - Things do not appear all that bad and they seem to be pretty on top of getting things resolved. Anyone that visits that section regularly will soon see how reported problems are resolved and quickly swept under the rug (threads deleted).
The member that compared them (PSA) to DPMS and Bushmaster is way past wrong in his assessment. Neither of those companies ever came close to pumping out the same level of failure as PSA did (and still does) on a regular basis.
I own quite a few PSA Lowers and uppers. I have had issues with a few of the uppers. They were corrected by the factory. Once any initial issues were sorted out, the Fn CHF barreled uppers I have, have all run as good as any other rifle I own including...
You got to wonder WHY they even left the factory if they had problems.
As far as the FN barrels - PSA does not make them so it is harder (but not impossible) for them to screw those up.
If you take a single 'good' part and improperly connect it to a third rate part - You may have issues.
A PSA rifle (with an FN barrel) is no where near the same as a complete FN upper built and assembled by FN. There is good reason the PSA stuff is much cheaper...
The member that compared them (PSA) to DPMS and Bushmaster is way past wrong in his assessment. Neither of those companies ever came close to pumping out the same level of failure as PSA did (and still does) on a regular basis.
Maybe, but I have seen quite a lot of DPMS and Bushmasters fail. I guess I should have specified that I am mentioning the 2012-2015 under the freedom group. No feedramps, improper gauging of the headspace, horribly staked keys etc. I worked a gunshop and range during those years and 80% of the ARs we sold were Bushmaster, DPMS, CORE, or something similar. In an indoor range with awesome temp controls they would fail quite regularly. We actually started buying Spikes uppers and BCGs for our gunsmith to offer as a swap to their guns.
Full disclosure I own a few things from PSA, a lower that was blemed from the factory, and a few lower parts and buffer assemblies. Most of what I ordered I had issues with, I was missing a buffer spring for an A2 stock assembly, also I want say that some springs were missing from lower parts kit. They corrected everything, but it set me off about a month each time. I haven't ordered from them since 2015, and with Aero, BCM and so many others, never really had to.
I ended up buying their pistol AR because I convinced myself I may need something more than a 9mm on me for the possible election riots. After buying it I ended up going a completely different route with my carry firearm and the PSA sits, still unfired. Hoping I would run into a Scorpion Evo or a Garand or something I can use it to put towards
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Biggest weakness with PSA (and a few other companies) is springs. If a buyer would replace the FCG springs, BCG springs and action spring with Colt or Sprinco before shooting, 80% of potential problems would be taken care of. Next, check the torque of the barrel nut, castlenut torque, gaskey torque and staking and 95% of potential problems have been eliminated. The last thing is gas tube tube and gasblock alignment and gas port diameter. I wouldn't be afraid to buy a PSA and in the past, had one that ran great after replacing the springs.
PSA can be a good value for someone experienced with troubleshooting ARs. For someone not, chances are they soon will be.
Maybe, but I have seen quite a lot of DPMS and Bushmasters fail. I guess I should have specified that I am mentioning the 2012-2015 under the freedom group.
Agree that Freedom Group coming along was like tossing a turd in the punchbowl.
You got to wonder WHY they even left the factory if they had problems.
As far as the FN barrels - PSA does not make them so it is harder (but not impossible) for them to screw those up.
If you take a single 'good' part and improperly connect it to a third rate part - You may have issues.
A PSA rifle (with an FN barrel) is no where near the same as a complete FN upper built and assembled by FN. There is good reason the PSA stuff is much cheaper...
While any or all of that may be true, the rifles have been adequate for any use that I have subjected them to including the supposed "acid test" of high round count courses etc...I can't speak for others, I won't say I haven't had problems- I have, all minor, all fixed without issue. Very happy with my rifles and they have performed- with the noted exceptions, as well as any others I own.
Straight Shooter
02-19-21, 14:28
No, historically they have had a much greater showing of problems than the AR15s from companies you just listed.
I'm not saying your sample doesn't run, but there is no way around the litany of issues their company has had with AR15s and other products. Regarding their warranted items, they have been known from multiple persons to be difficult to deal with when problems arise.
Biggest weakness with PSA (and a few other companies) is springs. If a buyer would replace the FCG springs, BCG springs and action spring with Colt or Sprinco before shooting, 80% of potential problems would be taken care of. Next, check the torque of the barrel nut, castlenut torque, gaskey torque and staking and 95% of potential problems have been eliminated. The last thing is gas tube tube and gasblock alignment and gas port diameter. I wouldn't be afraid to buy a PSA and in the past, had one that ran great after replacing the springs.
PSA can be a good value for someone experienced with troubleshooting ARs. For someone not, chances are they soon will be.
Stick-
To argue with your experiance vs. mine would show idiocy on my part. I said what I did about the Ruger, S&W & Springfield Armory is because Ive seen all three of those brands have problems. We had at one time several ongoing threads about them here, concerning their issues also. One Springfield Saint I know of wont run for shit..I dont know why. The S&W Sports Ive seen were gassy & unstaked at castlenut. Im NOT a PSA fanboy, to be clear to all- Ive made it clear here I bought mine to TEST.
Did I just get lucky & get one of the few with no problems? You mentioned the past problems we all know about, have or havent they improved on them?
I feel like MistWolf hit the nail on the head concerning PSA, nothing more to add to that. My testing will continue, as limited as I am now with time & ammo.
MA2_Navy_Veteran
02-19-21, 15:10
Any time you are building something over time or making a large purchase...boat, house, car, let's throw a new rifle in there as well, it is said that there are three check boxes to make:
Inexpensive
On time (available)
High quality
But you can only pick two, you cannot have all three.
I've always heard it as being: "You can have it Cheap, Fast, or Good. Pick any two."
I tend to go with the last two options whenever possible, though lately it seems more & more that there are really no options at all.
But but but “it’s just as good as BCM!”
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No one is saying they are just as good as BCM. Everyone here understands there are distinct classes of AR quality and Colt, LMT, Sionics, BCM (for example) are clearly above PSA. They also easily sold for 2X the price of PSA's Freedom line in the glory days pre-Covid (except for some Colts). Not everyone wants or needs to pay north of a grand for an AR that gets toted to the range or used as a ranch gun.
Full disclosure - the only factory built AR I own is a LMT. I owned a PSA Freedom for a month or so before passing it to my youngest son unfired. My "go-to" and 1st AR is all BCM hard parts except for a quality lower (Nodak Spud A2).
Andy
P.S. Thank you for chiming in regarding the S&W, Ruger, etc ARs, Stickman.
ChattanoogaPhil
02-20-21, 08:40
PSA pencil upper $219
PSA blem lower $129
PSA premium BCG $89
Larue MBT, Trijicon RMR, Lantac brake.
Third case of M193. No hiccups. Wife loves it. Would buy again.
No one is saying they are just as good as BCM. Everyone here understands there are distinct classes of AR quality and Colt, LMT, Sionics, BCM (for example) are clearly above PSA. They also easily sold for 2X the price of PSA's Freedom line in the glory days pre-Covid (except for some Colts). Not everyone wants or needs to pay north of a grand for an AR that gets toted to the range or used as a ranch gun.
Full disclosure - the only factory built AR I own is a LMT. I owned a PSA Freedom for a month or so before passing it to my youngest son unfired. My "go-to" and 1st AR is all BCM hard parts except for a quality lower (Nodak Spud A2).
Andy
P.S. Thank you for chiming in regarding the S&W, Ruger, etc ARs, Stickman.
It may not have been said during this round of discussion, but I’ve heard it said before.
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It may not have been said during this round of discussion, but I’ve heard it said before.
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I concede that point, X 10 if you browse outside M4C.
Andy
I concede that point, X 10 if you browse outside M4C.
Andy
I’m not 100% sure, but I think I’ve heard it here before. Granted, it may have been from a newer, uninformed person.
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Thanks for the update. Interesting to hear. I took a class over the summer with a guy who brought a PSA AR-10 variant, and it didn't fair well at all, granted the guy attending didn't really have any prior knowledge of AR's or his Springfield pistol. The rifle seemed to seize up after a couple of magazines, they got him on some slip 2000 or something similar and that helped, but the guy ended up borrowing the instructors BCM 5.56 half way through the class. I think this is half the issue with PSA, they are the firearm for the lowest common denominator now that DPMS and Bushy are not found on the shelves, and the buyers don't help. I do appreciate them flooding the market with AR's as I can only imagine the headache they provide for bloomberg and others, and I'm glad that yours seems in working order. I do hope that they improve, and are known for better quality as it really would help the market as a whole.
You just can’t compare AR10’s to AR15’s. They are a totally different animal. I dicked around with several before I realized you have to go big or go home and bought a DD5. For context- I used an M110 in the service.
You just can’t compare AR10’s to AR15’s. They are a totally different animal. I dicked around with several before I realized you have to go big or go home and bought a DD5. For context- I used an M110 in the service.I concur
If your ar10 budget is around 1k, you are probably better of buying a ptr then a low grade AR
Soli Deo Gloria
No one is saying they are just as good as BCM. Everyone here understands there are distinct classes of AR quality and Colt, LMT, Sionics, BCM (for example) are clearly above PSA. They also easily sold for 2X the price of PSA's Freedom line in the glory days pre-Covid (except for some Colts). Not everyone wants or needs to pay north of a grand for an AR that gets toted to the range or used as a ranch gun.
Full disclosure - the only factory built AR I own is a LMT. I owned a PSA Freedom for a month or so before passing it to my youngest son unfired. My "go-to" and 1st AR is all BCM hard parts except for a quality lower (Nodak Spud A2).
Andy
P.S. Thank you for chiming in regarding the S&W, Ruger, etc ARs, Stickman.
If more people phrased it that way, I would have zero interest in posting in PSA threads. However, there are far too many people who want to use the "Just as good as..." line. They aren't as good, especially when looked at in the larger picture of overall quality and not the isolated picture of "I have one that is fine". That doesn't mean by any stretch that they don't have a place on the market, but the term buyer beware comes strongly to mind.
I would be inclined to purchase an Olympic Arms (if they were still in business) over PSA, and yes, I do actually own an OA carbine, though I confess it gets little time out of the back of the safe.
You just can’t compare AR10’s to AR15’s. They are a totally different animal. I dicked around with several before I realized you have to go big or go home and bought a DD5. For context- I used an M110 in the service.
I agree, but the level of attention to detail that PSA gives to their products and the people who tend to purchase a cheaper option was what I was attempting to call attention too. I own 2 AR10's a M&P 10 and a ADM UIC-10a, the M&P is a fairly accurate rifle with 168gr Match, but surplus 147gr it opens up considerably. There was a member on here who attempted to suppress his M&P and could not do it, working with adjustable gas blocks and different buffers. That is why I decided on the ADM, which you pay much more for, because of the QC and engineering knowledge that goes into it.
There was a member on here who attempted to suppress his M&P and could not do it, working with adjustable gas blocks and different buffers.
The fix isn't adjustable gas blocks & buffers. It's getting the right extractor spring. I haven't found it yet.
Rifleman_04
02-20-21, 18:27
The fix isn't adjustable gas blocks & buffers. It's getting the right extractor spring. I haven't found it yet.
How does an extractor spring fix bolt-over-base malfunctions?
I actually liked them more back in the day. Back when at least half the stuff they advertised was sporting the fn chf barrels and their premium bcg, and you could build a half way decent beater AR on the cheap.
Now it really seems they just push their bottom of the barrel stuff. Although admittedly, I built one of their freedom kits for the heck of it and it's still running strong. And yes, I own better stuff to compare it too.
I got some junk from them over the years, but they always took care of it.
Soli Deo Gloria
They still sell a good amount of their FN CHF barreled uppers and rifles. I have a 16" Premium upper from them and it has shot fantastic with a quality BCG. Just about MOA. It shoots as well as both of my BCM uppered AR's. I guess some folks here thinks FN barrels are crappolie.
The fix isn't adjustable gas blocks & buffers. It's getting the right extractor spring. I haven't found it yet.
Good to know. Let me know when you found the solution.
How does an extractor spring fix bolt-over-base malfunctions?
A weak extractor loses control of the empty inside the action. This causes ejection problems which, in turn, impedes feeding. The uncontrolled empty keeps the bolt from cleanly picking up a fresh round. I think what happens is the mouth of the empty catches on the ejection port just enough to cause the bolt to stutter or just slow it down. If the bolt stutters or is too slow, it throws off feed timing and the cartridge will come out of the magazine nose high and base low. The nose catches on the barrel extension and the bolt over rides the base.
What I do know is, installing the correct extractor spring has ended bolt overs in more than one AR. I have never been able to correct a bolt over malfunction without first installing a new and correctly made extractor spring.
When experimenting with an MP10, I found it would short stroke with NATO pressure ammo. With commercial ammo, it would lock back and ejection was good. When suppressed, ejection was weak and there were bolt overs and the empty sometimes didn't eject. This is backward from what you'd expect from over gassing but fits perfectly if the bolt has a weak extractor spring. Ammo shortages have put further experiments on hold.
An extractor spring is often just good enough when an AR is properly gassed. But adding a suppressor increases the stress on the extractor. Now, a spring that worked fine without the suppressor can no longer hold the rim. It slips off, losing control of the empty. Without the extractor to hold the empty firmly against the bolt face, ejection loses effectiveness. This leads to bolt over malfunctions as explained above.
I have attended Will Larson's Semper Paratus armorer's course.
Rifleman_04
02-21-21, 16:34
The answer was it doesn’t fix it. An extractor spring doesn’t stop a bcg from outrunning a magazine spring.
The answer was it doesn’t fix it. An extractor spring doesn’t stop a bcg from outrunning a magazine spring.
What evidence or experience do you have that the BCG is outrunning the the magazine spring? What evidence or experience do you have that shows bolt overs are caused by BCGs out running the mag spring?
If bolt overs are caused by the BCG outrunning the mag spring, why didn't cutting back on the gas flow (slowing down the BCG) fix the problem? Why didn't changing the magazine fix the problem? Why did an AR with really excessive BCG speeds that I worked with not have bolt overs? Why do bolt overs occur more often when carrier speeds are slow? Why do they occur more often when an extractor spring is failing?
When developing the M4, Colt started having bolt overs that were blamed on the carrier out-running the magazine, so they worked to slow the carrier speeds. But Colt didn't fix the whole problem until they developed a stiffer, more durable extractor spring.
I would genuinely like to know the answers because none of the bolt over malfunctions I've personally worked on were solved until a new, properly made extractor spring was installed.
Rifleman_04
02-21-21, 18:49
Bolt-over-malfunctions can also be caused by short stroking, sure. The subject post I’m referring to was a questionable quality gun with a suppressor. That reeks of over gassed and high carrier velocity. It’s a pretty known phenomena.
Bolt-over-malfunctions can also be caused by short stroking, sure. The subject post I’m referring to was a questionable quality gun with a suppressor. That reeks of over gassed and high carrier velocity. It’s a pretty known phenomena.
The MP-10 is NOT over gassed. It's gassed just right for commercial pressure ammo. NATO pressure ammo, which is loaded to less pressure than commercial ammo causes short stroking in an unsuppressed MP-10.
What's questionable is the extractor spring S&W fits the MP-10 with. It's not an M4 spring and not compatible with an M4 spring. The factory spring is weak and not durable. It's not up to the task of extracting the heavier 308 case, a situation exacerbated by adding a suppressor.
The MP-10 comes with a carbine buffer. Changing to an H or H2 did not fix the problem. Changing springs did not fix the problem. Reducing gas drive did not fix the problem. When faced with the same malfunctions in a small framed AR that were not fixed by buffers, springs or gas drive adjustments, replacing the extractor spring did. Every time.
I don't give a damn about what "pretty known phenomena" are floating about the internet. No one has presented evidence carrier speeds can be increased enough to outrun a modern AR magazine in good condition- especially in semiautomatic. I have not been able to get a carrier to outrun a mag, even in an AR so grossly over gassed and carrier speeds so high, recoil was painful.
If the problem with suppressing an MP-10 was over gassing, reducing the gas drive would solve the problem. Reducing the gas drive did not solve my problem, no matter how many times I tried.
All evidence points to the extractor spring, no matter how much you, or the internet gestalt, wishes otherwise.
Rifleman_04
02-22-21, 11:21
Good luck.
IMO PSA does their job extremely well, which is to get AR15s into the hands of Americans that want one. We can all hate on them but when a ban on assault weapons makes it to the supreme court, PSA will have aided greatly to making the AR15 America's rifle and in “common use”.
IMO PSA does their job extremely well, which is to get AR15s into the hands of Americans that want one. We can all hate on them but when a ban on assault weapons makes it to the supreme court, PSA will have aided greatly to making the AR15 America's rifle and in “common use”.
I agree. PSA mission is to make money well as putting as many AR15's in the hands of the public. An excellent mission in my opinion.
PSA is not Daniel Defense, but they make nice rifles and their quality has improved in recent years.
I have built two, an AR15 rifle and an AR9 pistol and both run well.
I only have experience with PSA lowers, two of which were complete lowers and one stripped lower.
The two complete lowers were overall good, with two minor gripes. First, the castle nut on both was improperly staked and definitely not torqued to 38-40 ft lbs. Easy fix for a guy with a vice, magpul wrench, and bev block. Not so simple for someone new to ARs. Second, the included buffer was the 3.0 oz carbine buffer. Even easier fix to swap buffers; a newbie can change buffers without much trouble (or purchase tungsten weights and swap the steel weights out for slightly more trouble).
I recently built the stripped lower into a pistol build to hold my MK18 upper while my main lower was getting engraved. Normally I'd test fire it prior to attaching my home defense upper, but with the ammo shortage I decided a dry function test would have to do. After assembling the lower with mostly BCM and SIONICS parts, it passed my simple function test (admittedly not a very high bar, but then again I didn't really doubt the LPK).
In sum, my dad and I have never had problems with our PSA lowers. Are they as good as the complete BCM and Colt lowers we've bought, or the stripped Centurion Arms and SOLGW lowers? Absolutely not. I wouldn't swap any of those brands for PSA even if you gave me a case of MK262. But I can't deny they've been solid options when we were on a budget. I'm the "gun guy" among my friends, and when I can't convince someone to pay $1200+ for a BCM/DD/Colt/SOLGW/etc. I often suggest mating one of those brands' uppers to a PSA lower, with the invitation to allow me to help them correct any poor torquing/staking of their lower.
Someone mentioned PSA being important for the 2A and I wholeheartedly agree. While they often skimp on QC they certainly deserve recognition for their dedication to our rights. I seem to recall their mad dash to get Californians their stuff during freedom week. I don't live in that awful state (as Hank Hill said, "I hope I never make it to LA"), but as someone deep in enemy territory here in IL, I appreciate the fact that brands like PSA value our freedom (as well as BCM, Centurion, SOLGW, and a few others).
NWcityguy2
02-23-21, 18:45
Anyone else need to pat themselves on the back in a necro thread about PSA having eyes on this forum?
Anyone else need to pat themselves on the back in a necro thread about PSA having eyes on this forum?
Yeah, we are gonna run this thread for a while longer...
Anyone else need to pat themselves on the back in a necro thread about PSA having eyes on this forum?
Sure, why not? Dear PSA, can you please make your muzzle threading more suppressor friendly and make your Colt mag 9mm lowers’ feed ramps correctly, instead of drilling the pin hole the wrong height and then using some big, L-shaped shim doodad to take up the slack? Some of us expect uppers to be able to close on lowers without having to file that garbage down. Oh, while we’re fixing things, if you’re going to mark a barrel “5.56mm NATO”, can you have the chambers cut with still in spec reamers, so I don’t have to ask Ned if his throat reamers (lolol) can cut nitride? Thanks. Love you; mean it.
FIFY! :sarcastic:
That other hobbyist site is one thing, but go to some of the state boards <cough, cough - calguns - cough-cough>, and your brain will explode at the convoluted logic... :blink:
Cal guns while filled with a lot of knowledge on the law of the God forsaken state is a pit of douche bags otherwise
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