View Full Version : Are Some Liberals waking up?
My take: Many classic liberals, who are not aligned with the left (which are not always one and the same) have started to reject the left ideology and find themselves trapped between one group they're realizing is F-ed (the hard left) and a group they hate, the Right.
The classic liberal is now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Maybe they need to form a new political party? In their view, rejecting the left is tantamount for supporting Trump.
[Insert exploding head emoji here.]
It's difficult for me to find empathy for classic liberals, but I wouldn't wanna be one these days. We libertarian types are used to being trapped between proverbial rock and hard place:
Rolling Stone Editor Unloads On Media, Says ‘The American Left Has Lost Its Mind’
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/06/15/rolling-stone-editor-unloads-on-media-says-the-american-left-has-lost-its-mind-n531675
For those who want to read the actual editorial:
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself?r=1ejgy
So what are you defining as a "Classic Liberal" ?
"Classical Liberal" is the non-US word for libertarian
There’s a tug-of-war in the minds of the left right now: swing further toward the center, or join these obviously crazy and violent alt-left extremists.
Don’t know which mentality will win out. Probably join the crazies. Why? 1) Because they’re cowards. B) They won’t like the feeling of being politically and philosophically homeless. 3) “The mob will destroy any dissent either way, and I side with them more than I side with Trump, so I guess I’m a Marxist radical now.”
BoringGuy45
06-16-20, 11:22
So what are you defining as a "Classic Liberal" ?
"Classical Liberal" is the non-US word for libertarian
I think at this point, it's bit more like libertarian social ideals, but moderate-to-left-of-center economic ideals. They are the people who would have been considered liberal in the 80s and 90s, but haven't shifted left with the rest of the current radicals. What is of concern is that "classical liberals" tend to hold more anti-gun views than libertarians. However, in this current situation, some may see the light. If so, they could become decent allies.
Libertarianism has largely gone off the deep end as well, but in different ways.
BoringGuy45
06-16-20, 11:29
There’s a tug-of-war in the minds of the left right now: swing further toward the center, or join these obviously crazy and violent alt-left extremists.
Don’t know which mentality will win out. Probably join the crazies. Why? 1) Because they’re cowards. B) They won’t like the feeling of being politically and philosophically homeless. 3) “The mob will destroy any dissent either way, and I side with them more than I side with Trump, so I guess I’m a Marxist radical now.”
Right now, the crazies control the left, and they control every weapon the left has had: Communication, money, academia, and urban areas. The radicals are on the verge of total victory in the left wing.
So what are you defining as a "Classic Liberal" ?
"Classical Liberal" is the non-US word for libertarian
That's an interesting point I suppose. Libertarianism shares positions taken by both liberals and conservatives. Maybe in its purist form, the "Classical Liberal" is very similar to modern libertarians. "On paper" it also does not sound that different from conservative values either, that is, protecting the liberties of the individual. On practical level, it seems to me modern liberals and conservatives believe in that idea only where it's in line where their personal beliefs align, where as a modern Libertarian more likely to remain consistent all the way through. Maybe I should use a different term than "Classic Liberal" ?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/classical_liberalism.htm
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself?r=1ejgy[/url]
Never thought I'd agree with something that Taibbi wrote; he's been serving up warmed over intellectual mush in Rolling Stone for years. But here we are. Strange times.
Never thought I'd agree with something that Taibbi wrote; he's been serving up warmed over intellectual mush in Rolling Stone for years. But here we are. Strange times.
When even he "gets it" ...
I think at this point, it's bit more like libertarian social ideals, but moderate-to-left-of-center economic ideals. They are the people who would have been considered liberal in the 80s and 90s, but haven't shifted left with the rest of the current radicals. What is of concern is that "classical liberals" tend to hold more anti-gun views than libertarians. However, in this current situation, some may see the light. If so, they could become decent allies.
Libertarianism has largely gone off the deep end as well, but in different ways.
Which is why I'm "philosophically libertarian" rather than "politically libertarian." And I thought potheads were a useless drain on society when I was in high school, didn't realize the one time they self motivated to do anything meaningful it would be to numerically occupy and distort a perfectly valid political view.
My understanding of classic liberal is a mix of ideals from philosophers who pioneered modern western society:
Free speech is a must
Leave people generally alone
Establish and protect borders
Basically the ideas that were used to establish our country. Obviously its not a clear set as seen in the federalist and anti fed papers, but the general outline is there.
4-way political maps would put you In the centrist libertarian leaning area, also know as alt-right by modern media.
... again, my current understanding of it.
The modern pro-pedo, anti boarder fringe of libertarianism is not classic liberal as far as I can tell.
Averageman
06-17-20, 11:41
I think this quarantine time has been like sitting in the corner.
A bit of self reflection and some real time to observe what was made available over the last crazy six months has shown a new level of hypocrisy.
On one hand 'Black Lives Matter." on the other hand, I will stuff a couple of hundred COVID 19 positive patients in to your black grandma's nursing home, practically guaranteeing her infection and this passes the smell test?
There is a real lack of common sense coming from the Democrat party, if you have the time away from work to observe, this lack of leadership is very obvious.
So called "Moderate" Democrats might watch CNN and listen to NPR, but that veil of tripe is fast falling away.
Averageman
06-17-20, 11:42
Double tap
I think this quarantine time has been like sitting in the corner.
A bit of self reflection and some real time to observe what was made available over the last crazy six months has shown a new level of hypocrisy.
On one hand 'Black Lives Matter." on the other hand, I will stuff a couple of hundred COVID 19 positive patients in to your black grandma's nursing home, practically guaranteeing her infection and this passes the smell test?
There is a real lack of common sense coming from the Democrat party, if you have the time away from work to observe, this lack of leadership is very obvious.
So called "Moderate" Democrats might watch CNN and listen to NPR, but that veil of tripe is fast falling away.
Because they refused to allow Trump any credit at all by using the hospital ship sent and have no problems sacrificing citizens due to TDS?
Because they refused to allow Trump any credit at all by using the hospital ship sent and have no problems sacrificing citizens due to TDS?
Yes, just like the ComDems have no problems destroying our economy and burning down cities (dem controlled cities at that) due to TDS. I just wonder how many dem voters are going to get tired of their own party and vote against them in November.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-17-20, 12:54
Yes, just like the ComDems have no problems destroying our economy and burning down cities (dem controlled cities at that) due to TDS. I just wonder how many dem voters are going to get tired of their own party and vote against them in November.
Not very many. The cities with the most problems have been controlled by dems at a local and state level for decades and the people there continue to vote in the same thing over and over. If the dems in places like Chicago and Detroit continue to vote the same, I can't see dems in places like Texas, Florida, or Virginia changing their minds. They will continue to blame bad orange man.
Yes, just like the ComDems have no problems destroying our economy and burning down cities (dem controlled cities at that) due to TDS. I just wonder how many dem voters are going to get tired of their own party and vote against them in November.
I think there are millions of people at this point I refer to as "reluctant Trump supporters" who are not big fans of Trump per se, but so disgusted by what they have seen from the media, Dems, etc etc they will vote for Trump out of shear spite to send a message.
I think there's a lot of really pissed off people who resent being called a Nazi racist homophobic pedophile for even mentioning Trump has passed some good bills, etc.
I think enough people see through this, that those on the fence, those who may not be a fan, those seeing their cities and such go to chit, and others who are angry all around, will vote for Trump. I don't think the "anyone but Biden" voters will be as large as the "anyone but HC" voters, but they exist too.
I tend to think all that's happened actually strengthened that and the DNC knows it and in full free fall mode of desperation now.
While perhaps the true die hard Trump supporters may not be enough to carry it, I suspect the reluctant Trump supporters will carry the day easily.
Last election the DNC handed Trump the win on a silver platter by allowing HC to self ordain herself front runner. This time I think they will hand him the win on a platinum platter by their behavior over the last 4 years and the Electoral College will not be required...
Fastest growing voting block in the US is independent voters and more 'Mericans now independent voters then either party as of last times they polled though a high % of independents lean in one direction over another party wise. Note that's totally ignored by the media or either party but the message seems very clear to me, people are F ing tired of the two major parties and are trying to send a message best they can.
That's my predictions.
Not very many. The cities with the most problems have been controlled by dems at a local and state level for decades and the people there continue to vote in the same thing over and over. If the dems in places like Chicago and Detroit continue to vote the same, I can't see dems in places like Texas, Florida, or Virginia changing their minds. They will continue to blame bad orange man.
Agreed, its Trump or nothing for them. I've seen many people feel this way. I'm not a huge Trump fan myself, but I feel like I have to defend him more and more. They assume that once he's gone, all of their problems will be solved and people will embrace and sing kumbaya in the streets. I think that Trump and some if not most of the Republican part represents the working man, which I really do think is what is "waking people up" if not pushing them to understand that the left is not quite the place they want to be at the moment.
Life's a Hillary
06-17-20, 14:59
I think there are millions of people at this point I refer to as "reluctant Trump supporters" who are not big fans of Trump per se, but so disgusted by what they have seen from the media, Dems, etc etc they will vote for Trump out of shear spite to send a message.
I think there's a lot of really pissed off people who resent being called a Nazi racist homophobic pedophile for even mentioning Trump has passed some good bills, etc.
I think enough people see through this, that those on the fence, those who may not be a fan, those seeing their cities and such go to chit, and others who are angry all around, will vote for Trump. I don't think the "anyone but Biden" voters will be as large as the "anyone but HC" voters, but they exist too.
I tend to think all that's happened actually strengthened that and the DNC knows it and in full free fall mode of desperation now.
While perhaps the true die hard Trump supporters may not be enough to carry it, I suspect the reluctant Trump supporters will carry the day easily.
Last election the DNC handed Trump the win on a silver platter by allowing HC to self ordain herself front runner. This time I think they will hand him the win on a platinum platter by their behavior over the last 4 years and the Electoral College will not be required...
Fastest growing voting block in the US is independent voters and more 'Mericans now independent voters then either party as of last times they polled though a high % of independents lean in one direction over another party wise. Note that's totally ignored by the media or either party but the message seems very clear to me, people are F ing tired of the two major parties and are trying to send a message best they can.
That's my predictions.
Will, I couldn’t agree with your assessment more or put it nearly as eloquently as you did.
I also think that the dems critical mistake was the same exact mistake the republicans made when Romney got the nomination. Huge field of candidates that no one was really excited about but they were hoping someone besides old man, creepy, sleepy Joe would get the nomination. None of those worthless candidates rose above and now no one is actually excited to vote for Biden. When you can only run on the platform of, I’m not the current guy, you’re gonna have a hard go of it.
Trump might turn a lot of people off but he also has a rabid base and enough quiet, rational people that are sick of the overwhelming political correct narratives being shoved down their throats like they did something wrong that they’ll hold their nose and pull the Trump lever and never tell a soul.
Will, I couldn’t agree with your assessment more or put it nearly as eloquently as you did.
I also think that the dems critical mistake was the same exact mistake the republicans made when Romney got the nomination. Huge field of candidates that no one was really excited about but they were hoping someone besides old man, creepy, sleepy Joe would get the nomination. None of those worthless candidates rose above and now no one is actually excited to vote for Biden. When you can only run on the platform of, I’m not the current guy, you’re gonna have a hard go of it.
Trump might turn a lot of people off but he also has a rabid base and enough quiet, rational people that are sick of the overwhelming political correct narratives being shoved down their throats like they did something wrong that they’ll hold their nose and pull the Trump lever and never tell a soul.
Agreed, and will snicker at the TV when the results come in having sent their message seeing the lib tears and all. I will also add, that like last time, the DNC will blame it on everything and everyone but themselves, and apathetic black voters, Christian women, white cis males, and neo nazi's will all be blamed for the loss.
They will have handed Trump term 2 on a platinum platter and still not "get it."
I also think now with nothing to lose, we may see some epic investigations on some people we all wanna see go down flames, and if God/Allah/Shiva willing, HC herself and perhaps Holder.
Enter stage right, Murder Hornets...
I think this quarantine time has been like sitting in the corner.
A bit of self reflection and some real time to observe what was made available over the last crazy six months has shown a new level of hypocrisy.
On one hand 'Black Lives Matter." on the other hand, I will stuff a couple of hundred COVID 19 positive patients in to your black grandma's nursing home, practically guaranteeing her infection and this passes the smell test?
There is a real lack of common sense coming from the Democrat party, if you have the time away from work to observe, this lack of leadership is very obvious.
So called "Moderate" Democrats might watch CNN and listen to NPR, but that veil of tripe is fast falling away.
Agreed with everything you said.
But it doesn’t matter. They’re not going to vote republican. Best case scenario, they sit out the election. Just because one realizes how batshit the Democratic Party has become does not mean they could EVER support Trump. Lefty friends and family have said this. Some will sit it out, more will just vote blue no matter who.
Dr. Bullseye
06-17-20, 21:15
JFK would now be closer to Trump than Biden.
Once traditional white liberals find out they are just being used by the extreme, radical Socialist’s just to gain power and then they will be tossed aside and they will be coming after their money, yes they will be waking up.
BoringGuy45
06-17-20, 22:21
My super liberal brother referred to the "abolish the police" CHAZ people today as "a bunch of nuts". He's not going to vote for Trump, but he at least seems to acknowledge the danger of the fringes.
danattyfatty
06-18-20, 06:26
My super liberal brother referred to the "abolish the police" CHAZ people today as "a bunch of nuts". He's not going to vote for Trump, but he at least seems to acknowledge the danger of the fringes.
And your follow up........ is he gonna vote for them?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
This liberal is waking up.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/washington-state-mayor-now-calls-blm-protests-domestic-terrorism-after-her-home-vandalized
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