View Full Version : single stage trigger suggestions
I have a Timney competition 3lb on my 16" 5.56/223, and I am probably going to put the same only 4lb on my 7.5" 300blk pistol. The pistol wil be my home defense gun along with a p226 sig...but realistically (and I pray) it will only be used on the range.
Any reason I should go a different route?
I have a 4# Wilson TTU that I really like. I doesn't depend on setscrews to hold it in like the Timney. To tell you the truth I think a hot rod trigger in home defense gun is a liability.
3-4# seems mighty light for an HD setup.
Perhaps one of the improved mill-spec options or a 2 stage with a very short take up like the Larue MBT would be better choices.
Google Timney trigger fail
Geissele / ALG, maybe Larue on “go to” guns
thanks for the replies. I really don't want a 2 stage, or from reviews and opinions geisselle would probably be the answer. Prepping on the range, and prepping in an intense scenario seem like a bad idea to me...bit I am new to ARs so probably wrong on that?
I was liking the drop in idea also.
Not sure why a 4lb would be too light? If finger is out of the trigger guard?
You guys have me rethinking.
I really appreciate the advice, and patience with a new guy.
ChattanoogaPhil
06-21-20, 07:04
I have a 4lb Wilson TTU and 4lb Timney 668s. I would recommend the Wilson.
Not sure why a 4lb would be too light? If finger is out of the trigger guard?
Chattanooga has a moderate climate, but I lived up north and wore gloves in the winter a heavier trigger would be best. If you decide to go with a heavier 5-6lb single stage, take a look at LaRue.
I'm in Florida. I don't own gloves anymore :)
I was thinking about the Wilson.
I think the plated/polished mil-spec style triggers don't get the love they deserve. The BCM PNT and similar triggers are a significant improvement over a standard trigger and retain the strong reset and years of product improvement of the mil-spec trigger.
I have a BCM PNT installed in my HD AR and I think it's perfect in that role.
Andy
thanks for the replies. I really don't want a 2 stage, or from reviews and opinions geisselle would probably be the answer. Prepping on the range, and prepping in an intense scenario seem like a bad idea to me...bit I am new to ARs so probably wrong on that?
I was liking the drop in idea also.
Not sure why a 4lb would be too light? If finger is out of the trigger guard?
You guys have me rethinking.
I really appreciate the advice, and patience with a new guy.
If you are finessing the trigger in your "intense scenario" you are increasing your odds of being killed. You can jerk a 9 pound 2 stage trigger just as fast as a 4 pound single stage.
If you are finessing the trigger in your "intense scenario" you are increasing your odds of being killed. You can jerk a 9 pound 2 stage trigger just as fast as a 4 pound single stage.
yup makes sense. You kind of made my point...probably would be "finessing" on the range (from the little I know I think thats what 2 sages are about, prep it fine tune the aim and shoot) and then doing something totally diffeent in an intnse scenario. Could never finesse on the range but then I don't understand why get a 2 stage at all?
I hope I don't sound argumentative, I am questioning to learn not argue, written words without "tone" can be misinterpreted
If you don't have the trigger time yet to fully understand the differences between various trigger types in different situations then I would get a quality standard trigger, coated or not, to start in a SD gun. You can always change it out later as you learn more!
Dennis.
The two stage trigger design allows for greatly increased sear engagement when the trigger is at rest, compared to a single stage trigger (with equal pressure required to release the hammer).
Taking up the first stage, giving the user a clean break with almost imperceptible trigger movement, has the same end effect as using an excellent single stage. There's simply no initial safety margin with the single stage. Once the trigger moves, the hammer falls.
Taking up the first stage, and expecting to be able to stop at the wall without releasing the hammer, followed by fine tuning the sight picture before taking the shot is okay when shooting for groups from the bench or prone. It is not an effective way to run the gun offhand in most other situations. Pressing through the two stages in one fluid movement is no slower than using a single stage.
....and I fully agree with Dennis. If you can't effectively run a decent mil-spec trigger, then the problem is with you, not the trigger. I've got a few PNTs and one ACT, but in offhand shooting, I see absolutely no difference in the end result.
I have one Timney 4 pound single stage unit. It's much easier installing a PNT or MBT than the Timney, so I see no benefit it it being a cassette...and it's no more crisp than the SSA or MBTs.
My thoughts on the ALG ACT and Hiperfire EDT2/Heavygunner are contained here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?220849-Dry-fire-observations-comparison&highlight=
G and Larue also make single stages now. I’d lean toward pull weights above 4 lbs, personally. There’s a ridiculous amount of acceptable triggers on the market these days.
I have three Geissele SSA and one Hiperfire Heavy Gunner triggers. They are all great.
With that said, I also liked the BCM PNT trigger while dry-firing.
If you don't have the trigger time yet to fully understand the differences between various trigger types in different situations then I would get a quality standard trigger, coated or not, to start in a SD gun. You can always change it out later as you learn more!
Dennis.
The two stage trigger design allows for greatly increased sear engagement when the trigger is at rest, compared to a single stage trigger (with equal pressure required to release the hammer).
Taking up the first stage, giving the user a clean break with almost imperceptible trigger movement, has the same end effect as using an excellent single stage. There's simply no initial safety margin with the single stage. Once the trigger moves, the hammer falls.
Taking up the first stage, and expecting to be able to stop at the wall without releasing the hammer, followed by fine tuning the sight picture before taking the shot is okay when shooting for groups from the bench or prone. It is not an effective way to run the gun offhand in most other situations. Pressing through the two stages in one fluid movement is no slower than using a single stage.
....and I fully agree with Dennis. If you can't effectively run a decent mil-spec trigger, then the problem is with you, not the trigger. I've got a few PNTs and one ACT, but in offhand shooting, I see absolutely no difference in the end result.
Thanks for the feedback, and I apologize if I wasn't clear. I understand the differences between the milspec, 1 stage and 2 stage, and if you check my post above I said something very similar as to staging at the range and not staging in an SD situation. Y thought was/is I would be using different methods at the range than in an SD situation, and usually that isn't desirable...but I think I maybe overthinking that, or something that I see as an issue that others don't.
I can squeeze a double action handgun while staying on target, and the milspec is not an issue in that regard, ut thinking of something a little more fun when at the range.
Since they are not very expencsve I think I may pick up an enhanced "stock trigger" even if it's just to try it for a bit, and then go from there.
Bluedreaux
06-21-20, 16:52
I’ve got a single stage LaRue and it offers nothing that the polished milspec triggers don’t, except a larger price tag.
I’ve used ALG, BCM, and SOLGW and they’re all better or equal to the LaRue.
For a single stage HD gun that’s where I’d look.
Geissele Super 3 Gun curved. I have an SSA too. Both are on my HD rifles. My precision rifles have either the SSA-E or LaRue MBT.
#1 Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
#2 Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy.
#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
#4 Be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.
It's really that simple. No fallacy narratives. Keep your finger off of the trigger until you have made a choice to fire, and know how your trigger works beforehand.
Just learn to run a milspec or enhanced milspec trigger that has the coatings, ect. Anything with set screws or requires a wrench to remove has no business in a fighting gun (IE: your firing pin acts as a punch for the hammer/trigger pins) Go practice good trigger manipulation and pull weight is no big deal.
If I need to take apart my fighting gun in order to fix it (in the middle of said fighting), then I've already got bigger problems than that and am going to the secondary to finish the fight and will fix afterwards when the threat level has been lowered. You shouldn't be trying to fix your rifle if the trigger breaks in the mid of a gunfight to save your life anyhow.
And pull weights is a very big deal as the clocks don't lie during controlled pairs. It's why I prefer SSA's or the S3G in my fighting rifles.
If I need to take apart my fighting gun in order to fix it (in the middle of said fighting), then I've already got bigger problems than that and am going to the secondary to finish the fight and will fix afterwards when the threat level has been lowered. You shouldn't be trying to fix your rifle if the trigger breaks in the mid of a gunfight to save your life anyhow.
And pull weights is a very big deal as the clocks don't lie during controlled pairs. It's why I prefer SSA's or the S3G in my fighting rifles.
I dont think anyone advocates for taking apart a gun during combat, but not requiring tools is a huge advantage in pulling out blown primers, ect. As for speed, yeah gucci triggers help but pairs are a joke as you should burn a target into the ground with as many shots as it takes. The 2 shot drills set you up for failure. In my opinion of course.
Me 10 years ago running a milspec trigger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RavnQFUuI4o
I dont think anyone advocates for taking apart a gun during combat, but not requiring tools is a huge advantage in pulling out blown primers, ect. As for speed, yeah gucci triggers help but pairs are a joke as you should burn a target into the ground with as many shots as it takes. The 2 shot drills set you up for failure. In my opinion of course.I had a friend that had a blown primer with his G2s trigger, one with her RRA match trigger of some sort, and milspec from another person. All three needed a multitool to get the back into action, so I don't see a point at all.
And if I need to burn someone to the ground or until the threat is over, then why would I want to be even slower with a heavier pull weight?
Me 10 years ago running a milspec trigger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RavnQFUuI4o
Nice shooting, but you're forgetting that you're not me and I'm not you. Now multiply that by the millions, and here's where we are with different levels or fitness or health. maybe someone has had an injury or an ailing illness like arthritis and a match trigger helps. maybe two people having the same amount of training, and one's a natural Miculek and the other's not? There's not many at all that can do what he does, even for the younger guys with much high more trigger time. Even SF recognizes that milspec is inferior and requested and got an NSN for a match trigger from Geissele. Are you going to admonish them for their gucci trigger too?
I have a Timney competition 3lb on my 16" 5.56/223, and I am probably going to put the same only 4lb on my 7.5" 300blk pistol. The pistol wil be my home defense gun along with a p226 sig...but realistically (and I pray) it will only be used on the range.
Any reason I should go a different route?
What are you using as a primary handgun? I honestly went to 2-stage triggers because it was what closely mimicked my Glock. Going back and forth between both caused some minor issues when I was shooting a lighter single stage trigger in my carbine.
What are you using as a primary handgun? I honestly went to 2-stage triggers because it was what closely mimicked my Glock. Going back and forth between both caused some minor issues when I was shooting a lighter single stage trigger in my carbine.Are you saying that you need slack in order to fire? Or both either have to be slack or no slack but not both?
Don't buy a fancy trigger. Use a known quality mil-spec single stage. I recommend ALG.
Then, I dare you to put a dollop of polishing compund on the sear, and dry fire 1000 cycles.
Meaningful repetitions, with sight picture, and mental focus.
Not just "cock'n'click" mindlessly while watching TV.
Your finger will be stronger. Your trigger will be smoother. And just like magic, your groups will shrink. For $0.
I dare you to prove me wrong. You don't need a Gucci trigger.
Edit to add: This dry practice is also a very good opportunity to verify a "fire on release" condition is not present with your disconnector (common with value - mid tier brands and homebrew rifles).
I don't think that having a 3-4lb trigger in your defensive guns is necessarily a horrible thing. The question IMHO becomes more about your skill/competency level. If you don't have the skill to consistently manipulate any trigger that you encounter consider just keeping a Mil-spec trigger in your HD guns.
Don't buy a fancy trigger. Use a known quality mil-spec single stage. I recommend ALG.
Then, I dare you to put a dollop of polishing compund on the sear, and dry fire 1000 cycles.
Meaningful repetitions, with sight picture, and mental focus.
Not just "cock'n'click" mindlessly while watching TV.
Your finger will be stronger. Your trigger will be smoother. And just like magic, your groups will shrink. For $0.
I dare you to prove me wrong. You don't need a Gucci trigger.
Edit to add: This dry practice is also a very good opportunity to verify a "fire on release" condition is not present with your disconnector (common with value - mid tier brands and homebrew rifles).
Whenever someone says what "I don't need," they always turns out to be wrong. Even adding "I dare you to prove me wrong" has also turned out to be wrong too.
Even Jerry Miculek recommends getting a good trigger. Pretty sure he's dry fired more meaningful and focused than people here can talk a big talk about with the right catch phrases and daring people with appeals to ignorance.
Even a quick google search shows that pros use match triggers to get their groups down, and I'm pretty sure, nope, POSITIVE, that their fingers are already stronger at this point.
So with that said, I dare you now to prove all of them wrong, too.
We know what we need and don't need. You do you.
I have used several ALG ACT triggers as well as several more BCM PNTs. In my experience, the BCM triggers are way more consistent across the board. None of them have had a gritty feeling to them. The ACTs are sort of a role of the dice. I have had very good ones, and I had one that was literally the worst trigger of ANY type that I ever felt, including the crappy triggers that many times come with factory rifles. That trigger felt like it was drug down a gravel road to polish it. Between these two, get the BCM.
Just get what you want, and practice with it. Simple. I think you already have your mind made up anyway.
~SNIP~
Even a quick google search shows that pros use match triggers to get their groups down, and I'm pretty sure, nope, POSITIVE, that their fingers are already stronger at this point.
~SNIP~
We know what we need and don't need. You do you.
The OP asked which single stage trigger to use for a defensive carbine not which trigger he should use for competitive shooting. Its like telling a Glock owner they need a lighter trigger for CCW.
Andy
The interwebs be trippin'
Andy
The OP asked which single stage trigger to use for a defensive carbine not which trigger he should use for competitive shooting.
AndyAnd someone made the remark that you snipped away about the groups going down, so I used facts to prove otherwise. So it's still relevant matter how you feel, because facts actually matter.
Some people actually do use single stages in defensive carbines. I am one of them. And no matter how one feels, it's not a wrong decision either, YMMV.
And someone made the remark that you snipped away about the groups going down, so I used facts to prove otherwise. So it's still relevant matter how you feel, because facts actually matter.
Some people actually do use single stages in defensive carbines. I am one of them. And no matter how one feels, it's not a wrong decision either, YMMV.
I am not criticizing your (or anyone's) choice of triggers. I am only suggesting that a match trigger should not be the default choice for a gun used primarily for home defense.
Andy
I am not criticizing your (or anyone's) choice of triggers. I am only suggesting that a match trigger should not be the default choice for a gun used primarily for home defense.
AndyYou can suggest all you want, but that wasn't what you did when you deliberately left out pertinent parts of the conversation when you tried to undermine, and criticizing me.
The default choice is what the user thinks after making a rationalized and informed decision. Whether it be a milspec, match two stage, match single stage, whatever.
You can suggest all you want, but that wasn't what you did when you deliberately left out pertinent parts of the conversation when you tried to undermine, and criticizing me.
The default choice is what the user thinks after making a rationalized and informed decision. Whether it be a milspec, match two stage, match single stage, whatever.
You are correct that I snipped as much of the pissing contest between yourself and another member as possible. My reply had nothing to do with the parts of your post that I snipped, and I clearly indicated that I was not quoting all of your post.
I committed no offense against you.
Default does not mean an ideal solution selected after carefully considering a single user's unique circumstance, it means a selection that will safely satisfy the minimum requirements across a broad spectrum of users and uses.
Andy
**snip**
Default does not mean an ideal solution selected after carefully considering a single user's unique circumstance, it means a selection that will safely satisfy the minimum requirements across a broad spectrum of users and uses.
AndyBut a point being made still is a point regardless of how you see it.
And that's an invalid argument for what a default is. You are stretching goalposts. Nothing more, nothing less. And as for safety, the minimum is the four rules and ONLY the FOUR RULES. Anything else is added subjective based requirements that are not necessary as a whole and does nothing for the objective of one's selection of a trigger for home defense use; it just means that you have added things to it, a personal choice (not wrong) to add and think others need to adhere to as well (which is wrong).
Anyway!!! I ended up deciding I am going to turn my long AR into a long range gun so I got a Triggertech Diamond and put it in that gun. (and a Vortex AMG)..probably a barrel upgrade in it's future. I took the Timney competition, from that gun and put it in the 300blk pistol.
Very pleased with both triggers now.
For those that missed it from the OP "but realistically (and I pray) it will only be used on the range." So yes I wil grab it if in the hugely unlikely chance I ever needed it for defense, but the range is really where it will live. And been handling guns for 50 years...very familiar with basic safety.
Appreciate the input.
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